JLA: House Divided signup thread (werewolf game)

[Murph]

Oh I KNEW Batman wasn't finished for good. :-)

[Staff Sergeant]

typical useless response that is ironically mocking a response the poster deems useless

I'll remember in the future that given the choice between either

a) Bahimiron completely misunderstood a concept and had a terrible idea

or b) Bahimiron tried to do something clever

the answer is probably a.

[Bahimiron]

That's cool, man.

I kinda do something like that whenever I see an EFG post.

See, I flip a coin. If it comes up heads, I know that the post will be stupid. If it comes up tails, I know it'll be moronic.

I'm always a winner!

[Kael]

Its just a game folks, meant for fun. Lets keep the attacks on each other to the game thread (and the P&R forum).

[Kael]

That gives me an idea. Is a Werewolf game where all the players play current republican fanatic political figures (Glen Beck, Rush Linbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin) a great idea or is it just me?

[Bahimiron]

Angie inadvertently gave me an idea for one.

Calvin Ball.

Standard rules, but the GM requires some extra equipment.

As the GM, I have a stack of rules cards with various game rule variations written on each card. Every day I draw a card and flip a coin. If it comes up heads, the rule on the card is added to the rules already in play. If it comes up tails, the rule on the card replaces all rules currently in play. I then flip the coin again. If it comes up heads, I tell the players about the new rule. If it comes up tails, I don't. If it came up heads, I flip the coin one more time. If it comes up heads, I tell them about the actual new rule. If it comes up tails, I put the new rule in play, but I draw another card and I tell the players that that is the new rule.

Nobody wins! In the end, everyone hates me.

[Kael]

I hope when Angie gave you this idea she wasn't likening it to our current game? :)

[Bahimiron]

I said inadvertent! Different thing.

[caesarbear]

That gives me an idea. Is a Werewolf game where all the players play current republican fanatic political figures (Glen Beck, Rush Linbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin) a great idea or is it just me?
Sounds like my idea to set a Werewolf game in an insane asylum.

[Alan Au]

I'm hoping some of the PM intrigue will be revealed during the wrap-up.

Doom doom doom doom doom doom doomy-doomy doom...

- Alan

[Cormac]

That gives me an idea. Is a Werewolf game where all the players play current republican fanatic political figures (Glen Beck, Rush Linbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin) a great idea or is it just me?

If you're going to go with politics, why not go all the way to the White House?
Communists are infiltrating the West Wing! Every night someone gets fired to prevent them from gaining the upper hand!

[Equis]

Holy Supernova thread count Batman. Who is the last changeling? Will the Justice league escape from this with their lives? Can Bill D go back to life without fishnet stocking? How many more Black superheroes can BL reference? The tension is so thick.

[Rasputin]

Looks like we've all voted, Kael, or at least have a majority. Any chance of getting this all fired up so we can move to another day or just plain go home?

EDIT: Actually, let's all be fair here. Everyone who's currently playing check in on this thread confirming that you've voted and/or are caught up on the thread and done posting pre-vote.

[balut]

I voted.

[noun]

How many more Black superheroes can BL reference?

YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

[ElGuapo]

Yeah, we should give Zatanna her vote I guess. Has she voted?

[Bahimiron]

Man, Black Lightning hasn't even begun to scrape the bottom of that barrel.

When you start seeing these...

http://www.archiedigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/chuck_promo.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qIdxc0EEs44/SjJKLMuSoLI/AAAAAAAAApQ/K2LKmOzuATU/s400/token.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_P-5ek5TtF9Y/R5da_P24EBI/AAAAAAAAAOk/zlFY_9nU1EM/s400/kwame1.jpg

...you know he's in trouble.

[Cosmic Hippo]

Planeteer is totally fair game.

[ElGuapo]

You forgot one of the best ones:

Hey, come on, man! Me and Supes was tight!

http://www.4thletter.net/firstapp/blacklightning2.jpg

[CLWheeljack]

Whoops, sorry about the post in the other thread Kael. I thought it was this thread (they have very similar names, and they were right next to each other).

Fortunately, it was just snark, not game commentary.

[Rasputin]

Kael, et al:

Are we sticking to the 10pm EST thing, or is there a chance of moving it? I don't want to miss anything but I also need to be out in the real world for a while.

[noun]

Yeah, I'm going to MASTODON tonight so I'll be afk from 5:30 PST on.

[Rasputin]

I'm also just concerned that this thread is gonna get reaaaaaal boring. :)

[noun]

Yeah, now that we're down, what, 12 people, there's not much need for extended conversation. We can reach consensus pretty quickly.

[quatoria]

I'm also just concerned that this thread is gonna get reaaaaaal boring. :)

Hell, that happened as soon as Beetle and Booster were out of the game. Man, those guys were great. I wonder who they were.

[Kael]

Yeah, Im going to hold for 10pm. With Zatanna being up for banishment and not having voted yet I hate to cut off her opportunity to defend herself (even though I suspect that none of you could be convinced to change).

If Zatanna says to go ahead I'll go ahead and post the results.

[Rasputin]

Well, if you do end it early, please hold off anything post-vote reveal until I'm back? I'm zipping out now.

(Assuming, of course, that we don't just plain win)

[Munky]

YOU HAVE NO IDEA.
I am thoroughly disappointed we have not seen
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo169/DiBrasileiro/The%20Incredibles%20Imagens/Frozone3.jpg (http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo169/DiBrasileiro/The%20Incredibles%20Imagens/Frozone3.jpg)

[Mike O'Malley]

Go ahead, I can't come up with anything persuasive.

It was a great game though!

[ElGuapo]

Ha ha. Yeah, no hard feelings. :)

[Kael]

Sorry, I just got home. I'll be posting in a few minutes.

[Bahimiron]

THANKS FOR UNBANISHING ME, GUYS! D:

[Raife]

THANKS FOR UNBANISHING ME, GUYS! D:

Above suspicion is really not a healthy place to be in these games.

[Mike O'Malley]

ARGHHHHHH

It's obvious that those banished back to Earth are the real winners here.

[Staff Sergeant]

There is a ridiculous fact that some heroes are assuming to be true, that isn't true, and it's driving me crazy. Must....not....interfere.

Again!

[Bahimiron]

I love the Flash's latest post with all the math.

You are looking at the Watchtower. There are two kids. If you see the Flash standing at a window; what is the probability that the other kid is a changeling?

[balut]

Wait, so do I fly or not?

[Dan Lawrence]

Again!

Chalk me up as another big fan of the game! Its turned into a real mystery as the last changeling continues to elude banishment. I think I might have an explanation that ties up the loose ends, though it would be completely out of the box so I wouldn't be suprised if it was totally wrong.

Roll on the last one or two days.

[Alan Au]

Doom doom doom doom doom doom doom doom doom doom...

- Alan

[ElGuapo]

One of committed suicide or let the others kill him to establish trust. I didn't even know that was permitted. Has that ever been done before?

Ah, or Green Lanterns
power was...

[Murph]

Okay, I admit it...I TOTALLY thought it was Zatanna.

[Eilonwy]

Me too!

[Alan Au]

Normally werewolf-types games have straightforward rules and rely on the negotiating skill and analysis of voting patterns. This one is based more on hidden information, which makes it interesting but confusing--I look forward to the post-game reveal of how everything worked, and whether certain narrative bits were made up for flavor or if they reflected actual in-game rules.

- Alan

[forgeforsaken]

Yeah, I'm interested in knowing for instance if the characters suggested by Dr. Fate were put there by Kael or if the person who played Fate got to submit his suspicions to be relayed.

[AaronSofaer]

I can't say what's been on my brain until the game's over, aaaargh.

[antifood]

You can say it now, since it's locked up!

[Angie Gallant]

Not yet. Firestorm and Green Arrow both still need to post that they have made their final votes.

[antifood]

When your head hurts, you miss these things!

[Kael]

The game is locked. Outcome is only know to me and the Changelings. We will reveal tomorrow who won. Until then everyone is free to share ideas and strategy (changelings are asked to maintain their cover). Feel free to vote in the public poll for who you think the final Changeling was: http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=55203

[Bill Dungsroman]

Man, we're really making an event out of this, eh?

[Sarkus]

This is going to sound like a criticism, and I guess it is one, so let me say up front that it's Kael's game and he can do what he wants. And it's been a great game to follow as an observer.

That said, the final vote was cast at 730AM PST today and you're waiting until tomorrow to finish this game? Ok . . .

[Claycw]

In Kael's defence he may have RL stuff to do and doesn't have the ending written yet. It actually does take awhile to put all this stuff together and get it all written for you guys. I never write the ending until the game is over. These type games never run the way you think they will, they sort of have a mind of their own, we set the world and let you run with it and see where it takes all of us.

[AaronSofaer]

That's to let people kibbitz about what they thought is going on!

[Sarkus]

In Kael's defence he may have RL stuff to do and doesn't have the ending written yet. It actually does take awhile to put all this stuff together and get it all written for you guys. I never write the ending until the game is over. These type games never run the way you think they will, they sort of have a mind of their own, we set the world and let you run with it and see where it takes all of us.


That's to let people kibbitz about what they thought is going on!

Those are valid arguments, but all I can approach this from is as a player. If at the end of games I was involved in the whole thing had been frozen for the final results I would have found it frustrating.

And we'll have to see how much kibbitzing there actually is. It seems like there is more interest in the kind of details that won't be out until after the game is finished then anything else.

[Claycw]

I will give you that for sure. Normaly I let the final vote go without letting anyone know that the game is over. In my last game the creatures won and they were chomping at the bit to end it but I needed more time and let the humans have a final vote session though it was their demise.

[Kael]

Yeah, I'm interested in knowing for instance if the characters suggested by Dr. Fate were put there by Kael or if the person who played Fate got to submit his suspicions to be relayed.

The first player kicked out of the game would remain as a ghost. As a ghost he could deliver a message once during the game as he choose. Either to a single individual, or to the group as a whole. The player was to contact me, and I would deliver it for him.

So that message was from Doctor Fate, not me.

[caesarbear]

That said, the final vote was cast at 730AM PST today and you're waiting until tomorrow to finish this game? Ok . . .
I think it's the perfect way to end this game.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6958/tobecontinued.jpg

[Mike O'Malley]

Okay, I admit it...I TOTALLY thought it was Zatanna.


Me too!

I knew the whole time it wasn't Zatanna.

[forgeforsaken]

The first player kicked out of the game would remain as a ghost. As a ghost he could deliver a message once during the game as he choose. Either to a single individual, or to the group as a whole. The player was to contact me, and I would deliver it for him.

So that message was from Doctor Fate, not me.

Can you reveal if any of the players asked about that and if that's something you would have revealed to them? To me knowing whether that was narrative or not would have been a key piece of evidence.

[quatoria]

Knowing what was narrative and what was a rules addition and what was a lie and what was a last second change would have been very helpful during this game, yes.

[Bill Dungsroman]

JUST POST THE GODDAMNED ENDING, KAEL.

[forgeforsaken]

and what was a lie

Well, I don't think there's any reasonable expectation to know that.

[quatoria]

No, of course not - but having some way to tell what was plausible and what wasn't, in terms of the rules, would have helped. As it was, as a player, you had no real ability to know what anyone could or couldn't do, which made life in an already seerless game even harder.

[Murph]

Well, there WAS a seer, but he didn't last very long.

[Raife]

I think it's the perfect way to end this game.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6958/tobecontinued.jpg

Heheh. Tune in next week. Same Bat-time, same Bat-channel!

[Eilonwy]

I've never played a werewolf style game before--is it standard to not let people do 'secretive' things like searches and stuff, just do the conversation thing?

[Kael]

I've never played a werewolf style game before--is it standard to not let people do 'secretive' things like searches and stuff, just do the conversation thing?

Depends on how you define secretive. Enemy (be they werewolves or whatever) killings are secretive. Most games have a character or two with a special power. Something to give the werewolves something to hunt for and the player with the power something to claim to have to build allies.

This game was different in that most of the players had powers. And in general those powers were more limited than in a typical game (having 16 characters against the enemies each with a Seer/Priest power would be to much). I also included a lot of narrative (its the KaelGame model, good gameplay and forced medicore writing).

Claycw's last game had a map and allowed search and use actions each turn. Its the first time I had seen that in a game and its pretty cool.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Seriously Kael post the ending to the game.

[noun]

Yeah replying in the game threads and steadfastly not ending the game is a little frustrating.

[Angie Gallant]

It looks like we've gotten all the speculation we're gonna get in the other thread. Time to wrap it up.

[Raife]

Depends on how you define secretive. Enemy (be they werewolves or whatever) killings are secretive. Most games have a character or two with a special power. Something to give the werewolves something to hunt for and the player with the power something to claim to have to build allies.

This game was different in that most of the players had powers. And in general those powers were more limited than in a typical game (having 16 characters against the enemies each with a Seer/Priest power would be to much). I also included a lot of narrative (its the KaelGame model, good gameplay and forced medicore writing).

Claycw's last game had a map and allowed search and use actions each turn. Its the first time I had seen that in a game and its pretty cool.

Can you expand on that before you conclude the game? Perhaps with a long, detailed essay which avoids any spoilers.

[Kael]

Editing. The results will be posted in a few minutes.

[Angie Gallant]

Hooray!

[Bill Dungsroman]

http://i37.tinypic.com/13yp5c8.jpg

[forgeforsaken]

Two thoughts. My initial prediction of doom when recalling flash and not double banishing proved correct.

Related to that, I dunno Kael, I think you screwed over the heroes with narrative. By setting the recall before the banish and controlling the button press like you did. There's a period of time where both BB and Flash are in the station when the readout says 1 and BB had already used the hack earlier.

[Kael]

Two thoughts. My initial prediction of doom when recalling flash and not double banishing proved correct.

Related to that, I dunno Kael, I think you screwed over the heroes with narrative. By setting the recall before the banish and controlling the button press like you did. There's a period of time where both BB and Flash are in the station when the readout says 1 and BB had already used the hack earlier.

What recall was set before a banish? Staff actions always happened first, then the wizard action. I just maintained that pattern throughout.

[forgeforsaken]

What recall was set before a banish? Staff actions always happened first, then the wizard action. I just maintained that pattern throughout.

Look, you reverse how that was done and the outcome of the game turns out almost completely differently through no actions on the players part. That's the problem. you add the button press to happen after the recall and everyone sees the count go up and instantly knows that somehow Flash must have actually been a changeling, and the whole endgame changes. This is a huge point to how this game turned out and it was something entirely out of the players hands.

[Kael]

Look, you reverse how that was done and the outcome of the game turns out almost completely differently through no actions on the players part. That's the problem. you add the button press to happen after the recall and everyone sees the count go up and instantly knows that somehow Flash must have actually been a changeling, and the whole endgame changes. This is a huge point to how this game turned out and it was something entirely out of the players hands.

It did end up being a critical piece. But I opted to keep it the same. Reversing it to trap the changelings would have been an adjustment in reaction to player actions. Which I dont think is fair. But I understand that it was an incrediably crucial moment, unfairly crucial, because it was a key fact not because of clever role playing (though I dont mean to steal anything form the changelings, they did that well too) but clever use of the game mechanics.

[forgeforsaken]

I don't know Kael, it really seems like you stacked the deck on this one. Look man, I'm an impartial observer not a player, so it's not like I'm ticked about losing or anything, I'm just calling it like I see it. The changelings got too many breaks from the rules and the narrative.

[AndrewM]

It did end up being a critical piece. But I opted to keep it the same. Reversing it to trap the changelings would have been an adjustment in reaction to player actions. Which I dont think is fair.

I don't think he is saying you should have changed things as the game was going along, just that an arbitrary ordering that you imposed at the beginning seems to have influenced the outcome of the game.

[Kael]

I don't think he is saying you should have changed things as the game was going along, just that an arbitrary ordering that you imposed at the beginning seems to have influenced the outcome of the game.

Yeap, thats certainly a fair comment.

[Angie Gallant]

I don't think he is saying you should have changed things as the game was going along, just that an arbitrary ordering that you imposed at the beginning seems to have influenced the outcome of the game.

To be fair to Kael and to the humans, my job for several years was to look for the weakness in rules and systems. That's what I do and how I play.

[ElGuapo]

If I lost because I was decieved or manipulated or tricked
or was just plain too dumb to see patterns I'd be fine. But I feel like I "lost" beccause the rules kept changing ad I played. I mean, a werewolf power was to hide how many werewolves there were? Serioiusly? That's just stupid.

[quatoria]

Also, it would have been nice to know we even had the OPTION of checking the lifesigns monitor at will.

[Angie Gallant]

Red Tornado did it.

Also, the hack power could have been used in many ways other than to change the sensor. I could have faked a time-release message from Batman or something. It wasn't changeling-specific and could have been used in lots of ways, that's just the way I chose to use it.

[Eilonwy]

I was told point blank that the only 'activities' allowed were powers, voting, and talking to each other. I'm glad I was out early because it never would've occurred to me that the computer should've been checked, etc.

[Bahimiron]

Considering we got time release messages from Fate and Batman as part of the narrative, adding one of your own wouldn't have really increased the confusion.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I think telling Black Lightning he killed a Changeling and then telling him he didn't was a pretty tough deal, man. I mean every single Changeling death or banishment was rigged or altered to be of no use to the heroes.

[noun]

To be fair to Kael and to the humans, my job for several years was to look for the weakness in rules and systems. That's what I do and how I play.

Congratulations on thinking outside the box and all, but this is like finding a money exploit in a game, using it to win, and then complaining how stupid the game was for letting you do that in the first place (all while praising your own awesomeness). I'm more impressed by your decision to be taken out of the game for the team. That was a brilliant move.

If I was Kael, I wouldn't have let you game the computer results. The minute you make a rule useless in a game that other players are relying on the whole game falls apart. As this one did.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Red Tornado did it.

Also, the hack power could have been used in many ways other than to change the sensor. I could have faked a time-release message from Batman or something. It wasn't changeling-specific and could have been used in lots of ways, that's just the way I chose to use it.

How is it not Changeling-specific? You were the only one who could do it.

[Angie Gallant]

What I meant was, had Blue Beetle not been a changeling, he still would have had it.

[Bill Dungsroman]

What I meant was, had Blue Beetle not been a changeling, he still would have had it.

In the context of this game, that statement is unfortunately useless, although I get your point.

[Wholly Schmidt]

1. Changing the changeling count was clever on Angie's part, but should not have been allowed.

2. Some players were too quick to misconstrue narrative (the whole Fate v. Zatanna thing)

3. That said, Kael should have been clearer, specifically with Fate's post-banishment message, and I guess about the order of the button presses (I didn't catch that and haven't reread that section myself) when it came to narrative vs. Real Game Stuff. In retrospect, with moves like this, my second point seems silly, but as a player, you've got to assume up is up and down is down on some fundamental level, so I stand by point 2.

We can (and will!) argue for days about what can and can't be done with regard to what rules can be broken and how. I can't offer an airtight argument for why allowing Angie to change the changeling count (even if just once) shouldn't be allowed, but other powers are ok, but that's my gut feeling.

[Bahimiron]

2. Some players were too quick to misconstrue narrative (the whole Fate v. Zatanna thing)

We can't trust a goddam thing any other players say, so we should at least be able to trust the narrative.


In retrospect, with moves like this, my second point seems silly, but as a player, you've got to assume up is up and down is down on some fundamental level,

Right. Which is why it's problematic when they aren't.

[Wholly Schmidt]

We can't trust a goddam thing any other players say, so we should at least be able to trust the narrative.



Right. Which is why it's problematic when they aren't.

Yeah. I totally understand. But that Fate v. Zatanna thing was retarded when you guys somehow thought that made Zatanna a changeling for "lying" about Fate. If Zatanna had truly been a changeling and Kael had meant for that bit of narrative to be a clue that she was a changeling in the opening scene, well then fuck it man. All bets are off, that would've been a disaster of a game if the GM is helping to out changelings or whatever.

Suspecting Fate would've been ok. Fate says he can bring people back? Sure, be skeptical, believe it when you see it, investigate him. Just like any other power someone claims they have. But turning it against Zatanna just had me scratching my head.

[Bahimiron]

But turning it against Zatanna just had me scratching my head.

Well, that's where the RP comes in. Vixen doesn't know the difference between what Zatanna says when Kael controls her and when Mike O'Malley controls her.

Keep in mind that Zatanna also said she had no powers, the computer reported she did, then she said 'oh, I didn't know I could do that'. That was a little suspicious.

[quatoria]

Also, Zatanna posted a grand total of, what, 20 words in the entire game? If someone had missed Mike's "Hi, I'm going out of town and not going to play the game I signed up for" post, like I did, that shit looks awfully suspicious, when you add it to the fact that Zatanna either didn't know what powers she had, or lied about them.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Well, that's where the RP comes in. Vixen doesn't know the difference between what Zatanna says when Kael controls her and when Mike O'Malley controls her.
Well, it's a game. I guess you can play it how you'd like, but I'd let the game as I understood it dictate my actions and then try to work the roleplay around it, not vice versa.

[Lantz]

All kinds of lurking, but I agree that the combination of:
1) allowing the changelings to modify the computer count (this was bad enough in the actual game, but could have been 10 times worse. What if no one had died in the night round (superman attacked, green lantern defends someone, martian manhunter attacked, etc -all valid in the game if not at that point in time) and the count magically goes up to 3? Sure, it might point to BB at some point, but more likely it gets people worried about shadow changelings (which were also possible in the rules) or spreading but at the minimum it teaches players that the one thing they have to hunt down changelings can't be trusted, so how can they ever know what's right?)
and
2) the only way for the players to discover the ability to modify the computer count would be to get BB to investigate himself which (s)he's said (s)he had the power to fake messages so (s)he could have just worked around anyways
and
3) only providing a changeling count opportunity after a wizard banish and not after a recall in the narrative
and
4) killing off the strongest player (Superman) even after players did the due diligence of investigating the wizard and got:


"he is unlikely to see past his hatred for Superman and Doctor Fate, and will attempt to turn the group against them.

Since Doctor Fate is no longer a threat he is likely to focus on getting Superman removed from the environment. After that is accomplished he will attempt to recruit heroes to his cause."

Turning the group against a player is a long, long, long way from "The Wizard will immediately banish Superman" which is unfortunate considering that the computer gave solid and complete explanations of other players' powers.
5) Giving Black Lightning (and the rest of the players through the narrative) an entirely unclear accounting of if he had killed a changeling. And all kinds of worse, his kill was done in some crazy 'shoot the corpse into space' way that didn't allow the players to validate the kill in any way.
and
6) Giving the players no way in general to tell a changeling corpse from a real one (see-Hawkman and Atom)

Pretty much screwed the players across the board.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Before we get any further, I do want to say I still really enjoyed reading this game. Kael did a great job other than leaving me feeling robbed on the changeling count.

The narrative was a lot of fun to read, and all the players did a great/hilarious job.

I didn't even think about the fact that using established characters sort of affects gameplay because changelings would do things like assume Bats needed to be offed sooner rather than later, so maybe that's a valid concern, but as a spectator I really loved that the game was with characters I knew. Most of the other werewolf games leave me struggling to keep up and eventually losing interest, but the familiarity of the characters here made it easy to jump in and catch up quick and still enjoy what's going on.

So yay Kael.

[quatoria]

All kinds of lurking, but I agree that the combination of:
1) allowing the changelings to modify the computer count (this was bad enough in the actual game, but could have been 10 times worse. What if no one had died in the night round (superman attacked, green lantern defends someone, martian manhunter attacked, etc -all valid in the game if not at that point in time) and the count magically goes up to 3?

If the hack hadn't corresponded with the perceived events of the night, I'd have gone public with my knowledge of BB's hidden hacking ability, and fingered her as a changeling. This actually almost happened anyway, when I realized that the numbers didn't seem to quite gel with what I'd heard earlier from Aquaman and Green Lantern in private, but I was convinced that Aquaman was a squid, and didn't want to point the finger without being sure, so I let it go. I actually mentioned to Canary as an aside that I was worried Beetle might be a changeling, but Canary was so busy in RL that his player didn't see it until days later.

[Lantz]

But the only way you knew about the hacking power is that BB decided to share it with you in a PM. There's a huge difference from a changeling choosing to share that information compared to someone actually knowing about it.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I actually mentioned to Canary as an aside that I was worried Beetle might be a changeling, but Canary was so busy in RL that his player didn't see it until days later.

You mentioned it to me via an IRC IM to my work account, at an office that I didn't return to for a few days, which is not the same thing. And so what if you did, I was worried she was a Changeling on day 1. Then after her powers were explained, I figured the game was already over if she was a Changeling.

[Wholly Schmidt]

edit: responding mostly to quatoria here

Even if there was the possibility that Angie's hack could have cast suspicion back on her, as long as there's the possibility that it won't (which is what happened), it shouldn't have been allowed because it's "moving the goalposts" or some stupid metaphor like that. You have powers that prevent things you attempt, or cause things you don't expect, but changing a fundamental aspect of what you're working toward just isn't right. When the whole game is about determining who to trust, you have to have some standard to hold people up against.

[quatoria]

I wasn't responding to whether or not it should have been allowed. Take that shit up with Kael.

[Lantz]

The Green Lantern should have just protected Martian Manhunter who shape shifted to be Green Lantern every night to break the game from the player's perspective.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Yeah, sorry quat. I guess I wasn't actually arguing with you or anything. You were just talking about the hack and I decided to keep complaining about it more.

[Sarkus]

Wow, pretty interesting stuff. I've played in these games on other boards and followed quite a few and yet the three that have been run here in the last year or so (two by Clay and now this one) seem to have really played around with the conventional approach to how these games should be run and what the rules should be. On the one hand there's nothing wrong with experimenting with the formula, but at the same time there's a reason why the formula has been so successful, right? I do have to say that one area that I think should not be messed with, and yet has been in these recent examples, is that divulging all powers ahead of time (in general) tends to make things a lot clearer to people. That may not be "realistic" but this is a game and games usually operate on the idea of generally known rules. If the powers in the game (as well as all possible actions, etc.) are explained clearly up front then no one can argue at the end that they were mislead and everything runs more smoothly. Just my opinion.

At any rate, I don't know what to think about the misleading count issue. It seems like a very powerful trick, but at the same time most werewolf games don't provide a "count" mechanism to begin with. You simply don't have any idea how many wolves there are. In that sense providing the counter to begin with may have blinded the players to the possibility that it might not be trustworthy.

That all said, thanks to Kael for an interesting and fun game to observe!

[caesarbear]

I do have to say that one area that I think should not be messed with, and yet has been in these recent examples, is that divulging all powers ahead of time (in general) tends to make things a lot clearer to people. That may not be "realistic" but this is a game and games usually operate on the idea of generally known rules. If the powers in the game (as well as all possible actions, etc.) are explained clearly up front then no one can argue at the end that they were mislead and everything runs more smoothly. Just my opinion.
Just as long as there aren't too many rules, right? :)

[Kael]

I think telling Black Lightning he killed a Changeling and then telling him he didn't was a pretty tough deal, man. I mean every single Changeling death or banishment was rigged or altered to be of no use to the heroes.

This isnt true. Black Lightning was never told if the Atom was a changeling or not. The text that was sent to Black Lightning was lost because of the forum send timeout. I had a bunch of texts going out that night open in different windows as I waited for the 60 seconds to pass before each could be sent. His got lost in the jumble.

He PMed me and asked if he knew if he killed a changeling, I said he didnt know (assuming at that time he had recieved the narrative). When I saw him complaining in the game thread about not knowing stuff I checked my sent logs and noticed the narrative never went through and I resent it.

The narrative specified that the changeling count was down to 1, as did the morning text which was posted before Black Lightning said anything. So missing the Changeling count in the narrative didnt cost anything.

The narrative was written with the assumption that Black Lightning wouldn't want people to know he was running around the station attacking people on his own. Black Lightning's posts before he got the narrative were the opposite, being proud he had killed a changeling. In hindsight that was a mistake on my part since I should have asked what he wanted to do with the body instead of wrapping narrative around it that would have been construded as suspicious.

[Kael]

Congratulations on thinking outside the box and all, but this is like finding a money exploit in a game, using it to win, and then complaining how stupid the game was for letting you do that in the first place (all while praising your own awesomeness). I'm more impressed by your decision to be taken out of the game for the team. That was a brilliant move.

If I was Kael, I wouldn't have let you game the computer results. The minute you make a rule useless in a game that other players are relying on the whole game falls apart. As this one did.

Its better to be upset with me. Angie played a great game exactly as she should have. If you have an issue with the setup or the moderation, which your points are. They are issues with me not other players.


The Green Lantern should have just protected Martian Manhunter who shape shifted to be Green Lantern every night to break the game from the player's perspective.

Lantern's power doesn't allow him to guard himself or those appearing to be him (just to avoid this situation).

[Dan Lawrence]

Thanks for running the game Kael, and thanks to the players for playinng it so well. Its kept me reading attentively for the past week or so and the final tragic twist in the tail gives it the air of an Alan Moore take on the JLA.

[Raife]

The narrative was written with the assumption that Black Lightning wouldn't want people to know he was running around the station attacking people on his own. Black Lightning's posts before he got the narrative were the opposite, being proud he had killed a changeling. In hindsight that was a mistake on my part since I should have asked what he wanted to do with the body instead of wrapping narrative around it that would have been construded as suspicious.

Exactly. That kind of thing only adds suspicion for other players. The Zetanna/Fate powers confusion is exactly the same situation. Suspicion is everything in these games, and it really doesn't help things when your narrative inconsistencies push suspicion toward people that did nothing to warrant it.

[Murph]

Well, I was out of the game too early for it to matter, but I thought the twists were great. One thing I love about games being run here is that people aren't afraid to twist the standard rules a little bit to create a new, different experience.

While I don't see how it could've been possible for the players to figure out what happened with the computer, I totally dig the idea. Especially since it was player-generated.

Clay's last game (and this is NOT a slight to Clay) had several players trying to think of ways to manipulate the rules, and he never let it happen. He did not allow their ideas to break the game.

This time, Angie (who just happened to be a changeling) saw an opportunity for her creativity to alter a key piece, and Kael let her do it. Good for him, I say, even if it wound up making the game extraordinarily hard for the remaining players to win.

There was a moment I really, really suspected Flash, even after he was brought back, but couldn't reconcile that with the computer displaying 3 after he was banished.

Kudos to all. That was a great, great game, and should somehow be recorded in the Hall of Fame in my book. Although somehow the superhero names would have to be put back in, lol.

EDIT: I'm still not sure I know who all 3 changelings were. Flash, Atom, and Blue Beetle, right?

[Bill Dungsroman]

EDIT: I'm still not sure I know who all 3 changelings were. Flash, Atom, and Blue Beetle, right?

Correct.

[noun]

Its better to be upset with me. Angie played a great game exactly as she should have. If you have an issue with the setup or the moderation, which your points are. They are issues with me not other players.

For the record, I DID have a lot of fun in your game, and thanks for letting me play it. It was a hoot being vaguely in character as the actual superhero while riffing on it for laughs by playing the character as a disgruntled black man. Posting pictures of every other superhero EXCEPT Black Lightning made it even more fun and funnier for everyone, I think. We all got a bit goofy with the pictures and the thread became hysterical.

But I'll admit, I was a bit frustrated with That Night. I KNEW something wasn't right but I couldn't figure out what. The narrative, though well written, was confusing the issue (other dead bodies, not being able to confirm my kill). So by assuming that the rules didn't change, I had to deduct what I could from the clues given: two changelings down (Aquaman and Atom) and Flash was human. I started to recover from this... for about an hour I was entertaining thoughts that I killed a human (if I can't confirm the kill, how could I proceed?) and was reconsidering the Flash but then I started reconsidering Fate's words (Banish alphabetically, trust Zatanna) and was lost.

After the next night, I think we all realized the game was over. None of the game logic was working, so we were all ready to speed up to the end to find out where the hell things went wrong. I WAS frustrated by the end of the game, but now that I know what happened and when it happened, I'm relieved.

[caesarbear]

Say if I hosted a simple rules, no narrative, no roleplaying game, something like what quatoria alluded to, would you people be interested? Or is the roleplaying the real draw over the gameplay?

[Bill Dungsroman]

After the next night, I think we all realized the game was over. None of the game logic was working, so we were all ready to speed up to the end to find out where the hell things went wrong. I WAS frustrated by the end of the game, but now that I know what happened and when it happened, I'm relieved.

I have to agree, which is why the maneuver by the changelings was such a masterstroke. I had nothing to offer after being led to believe Flash was human.

[quatoria]

Say if I hosted a simple rules, no narrative, no roleplaying game, something like what quatoria alluded to, would you people be interested? Or is the roleplaying the real draw over the gameplay?

I alluded to that? Huh. Anyway, personally, I wouldn't be all that interested - having already played a bunch of other vampire games, what made this one a lot of fun (and it was a lot of fun, until it went off the rails, Kael) was getting to play as Booster Gold, palling around with Blue Beetle an dmaking fun of Green Arrow. After Vampire Game 7, regular vampire games don't hold much allure to me anymore.

[MikeJ]

Say if I hosted a simple rules, no narrative, no roleplaying game, something like what quatoria alluded to, would you people be interested? Or is the roleplaying the real draw over the gameplay?

For me, at least, there's lots of potential in already-playtested variants of the game (e.g. witch, cupid, hunter, etc). I think providing a set of N additional roles with clearly-stated rules and then say you are going to randomly use K of them it would be fairly interesting. The trick would be to have enough special roles for a lot of people to feel involved without giving the game over to one side or the other.

That doesn't preclude having a narrative, setting or roleplay of course.

[CLWheeljack]

My only complaint about the "Blue Beetle hack exploit" is that before she died, Hawgirl specifically asked "can we run the scan before the banishment to see if they're replicating".

While the monsters weren't replicating, this caused Kael to slip a couple additional "the computer says 3 life forms, as usual" into the narratives. I think that this made the scan count seem (to the players) to be a running tally, rather than a specific event with a specific readout for that event. This made the monster count more above suspicion than it oherwise would have been. Basically, it seems like a human inquiry about the rules caused the rules to become shifted more in favor of the monsters.

For my money though, I'd rather have too much (sometimes contradictory or confusing narrative) than none. Obviously there's a happy medium, but for _this_ game, the RP'ing made up for the slightly wonky rules. We didn't lose a game, we told a collaborative story (or so I'll keep telling myself).

[Michael Fitch]

Greetings:
So, first, I want to point out that the passion displayed here is a sign that the game was a success. Aside from whatever issues people had, Kael did a great job of providing a memorable experience. Ultimately, a forum game isn't about who wins and who loses, rather it's about whether people were engaged, and clearly both the players and the spectators here found the experience to be compelling.

Fundamentally, I believe that the game was biased towards the changelings from the beginning. In the structure of these games, the innocents have one power (to vote for who to kill), which is weak in that the killers (werewolves or vampires or things or whatever) can participate in it; the killers have two strong powers: perfect information and the ability to kill someone every night; the seer has a strong power, if in play, in the ability to identify someone, and it also weakens one of the killers' powers (perfect information). The advantage of the innocents is that they vastly outnumber the killers; over time, this advantage decreases significantly. So, in general, the killers are stronger but outnumbered, which leads to a nice tension curve.

In Kael's game, however, the killers had several additional advantages. Blue Beetle had two extra powers (revealing powers and hacking the computer); Atom had an extra power (the body of fake Hawkman). The wizard banished an innocent (favors the killers, especially since the targeted banish was an innocent with a power), the changelings were never definitively revealed (favors the killers), and two heroes were given powers to kill additional people (actually, favors the killers). The additional Wizard banish also favors the killers, both in that it decreases the innocent population more quickly and that if the killers take out the wizard while someone is banished, it nullifies the possibility of returning those players as trusted innocents. Of course, the killers can eliminate anyone as soon as they become trusted, so that's weak to begin with. The guardian powers could be held up as a counter to this, but they're front-loaded by design, when the players have the largest advantage anyway.

In all of this, the ability to hack the computer became the most significant, and it is reasonably the site of most contention, because it breaks a cardinal rule: the players' ability to trust information given by the GM. However, I believe that the game would have trended to a changeling victory in all but exceptional circumstances (and BL's elimination of one of them was just such a circumstance).

I'm curious how the powers and changelings were determined. I can't believe that it was completely random, because Atom having a spare corpse wouldn't have made any sense if he'd been an innocent, and if Batman could have been randomly selected as a changeling, there would have been no "seer".

At the end of the day, though, this game was more balanced than Clay's (which gave an almost insurmountable mathematical advantage to the killers), and the passion around its flaws are a reflection of how successful it was at engaging the participants.

Just my two cents.

Best,
Michael.

[Claycw]

At the end of the day, though, this game was more balanced than Clay's (which gave an almost insurmountable mathematical advantage to the killers)

That comment was thrown in because??????

Actually my game was almost over on the third turn, but the humans switched who they were going after. Anyway I'm not doing this who's game was better crap.