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Dan Lawrence
09-24-2009, 01:31 AM
I know, I know - its another one of those threads about piracy.

I thought it was interesting to see the change in Lilly Allen; an artist who launched her career in the UK via myspace streaming and who previously seemed publically hugely relaxed about illegal filesharing. Very much a yoof act. She's now started an online blog/campaign gathering support from Take That and others to fight against illegal filesharing and tentatively in support of the government plans to introduce a 3-strikes rule to disconnect illegal filesharers. She's also been targetting the Featured Artists Coalition (a pressure group composed principally of Radiohead, Pink Floyd & Robbie Williams) for their statements of opposition to the government plans. This then prompted the FAC to issue a clarifying statement bringing them much closer to Allen in spirit but still divided on the government's disconnection plans. There is some talk of a compromise solution being floated by a drunken Mat Bellamy from Muse.

Now, there is apparently a crisis summit being held today in London to try and present a united front on piracy from 'the artists'.

BBC story on the crisis summit:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8270946.stm

Lilly Allen's Campaign blog:
http://idontwanttochangetheworld.blogspot.com/

Featured Artists Coalition website:
http://www.featuredartistscoalition.com/showscreen.php?site_id=161&screentype=site&screenid=161

Clarifying statement from FAC on their file sharing position:
http://www.featuredartistscoalition.com/showscreen.php?site_id=161&screentype=site&screenid=161&newsaction=showitem&newsid=2549&dc=6&sn=News


We wish to make it clear to all parties that we believe the creative work of artists should be paid for by those who enjoy it and that whenever our music is used, royalties should be paid.

However, we seriously question the wisdom of seeking to deal with this problem by terminating the internet connections of individual music fans. We are not referring to websites that reap commercial benefit from file-sharing: seeking to make money from giving our songs away. We want the industry and Government to come down on those thieving rascals with all the weight of the law.



The MUSE third way:


Lily
My current opinion is that file sharing is now the norm. This cannot be changed without an attack on perceived civil liberties which will never go down well. The problem is that the ISPs making the extreme profits (due to millions of broadband subscriptions) are not being taxed by the copyright owners correctly and this is a legislation issue. Radio stations and TV stations etc have to pay the copyright owners (both recording and publishing) a fee for using material they do not own. ISPs should have to pay in the same way with a collection agency like PRS doing the monitoring and calculations based on encoded (but freely downloaded) data. Broadband makes the internet essentially the new broadcaster. This is the point which is being missed.

Also, usage should have a value. Someone who just checks email uses minimal bandwidth, but someone who downloads 1 gig per day uses way more, but at the moment they pay the same. It is clear which user is hitting the creative industries and it is clear which user is not, so for this reason, usage should also be priced accordingly. The end result will be a taxed, monitored ISP based on usage which will ensure both the freedom of the consumer and the rights of the artists - the loser will be the ISP who will probably have to increase subscription costs to compensate, but the user will have the freedom to choose between checking a few emails (which will cost far less than a current monthly subscription) and downloading tons of music and film (which will cost probably a bit more than current subscription, but not that much more).

We should set up a meeting with Lord Mandelson as he is on this issue at the moment, I'm sure he would meet us for breakfast!




The NME Opinion formers wade in supporting Lilly:

http://www.nme.com/blog/index.php?blog=10&title=why_lily_allen_is_right_about_file_shari&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


Trouble is, demonising downloaders is not a cool or edgy position to take. The moment you say File-Sharing Is A Crime you sound like a tedious finger-wagging reactionary, the journalistic equivalent one of those tranquilised Middle England matrons who writes to Points Of View to heap praise on programmes about badgers and hedgerows ("More please, BBC!"). But perhaps it's time we left such concerns behind.

Ever since Metallica's Lars Ulrich sued Napster in 2000, the terms of the debate have become hopelessly simplified into David Vs Goliath: plucky outsiders challenging Major Label Scum. This in turn has enabled berks like The Pirate Bay to portray themselves as Robin Hood-style radical libertarians, thumbing their nose at authority, when in actual fact they're sneering, self-promoting chancers with deeply dodgy politics, who got rich leeching off other people's creativity.

Indeed, the issue has been muddied to the point where even a peerless rationalist such as Charlie Brooker can get confused. In a recent column he argued that file-sharers are not thieves; they're enthusiasts who just "bloody love music" – and in any case probably can't afford 79p a track because they're mostly students. Hmm. I'd argue that anyone who "bloody loves music" ought to be willing to pay the people who create it.



The Charlie Brooker piece he is referring to:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/14/charlie-brooker-damien-hirst

Nawid A
09-24-2009, 01:56 AM
Jeez, Bellamy isn't the brightest tool in the shed, eh?
Usage plans have been disastrous elsewhere and the amount of legal HD content now is pretty huge now. You can get dozens of gigabytes of entertainment without any piracy whatsoever.

And banning IP's is silly. Pirates will use other IPs. Maybe they'll get innocent people blocked off.

You have to be realistic about this sort of thing. This is just aimless.

Calistas
09-24-2009, 03:07 AM
Pay-by-usage plans are pretty common in a lot of places outside the US.

I don't think his idea is the best ever, but it's not a bad bit of lateral thinking.

alexlitel
09-24-2009, 03:30 AM
Lilly Allen's Campaign blog:
http://idontwanttochangetheworld.blogspot.com/Looks like she has quite the case here. I'm convinced.

Hanzii
09-24-2009, 03:41 AM
Looks like she has quite the case here. I'm convinced.

Well, after removing all the newspaper scans and other copyrighted material on her blog, this is what's left...

Nellie
09-24-2009, 04:18 AM
Think I've just reached a point where it's far more entertaining to watch the Music Industry destroy itself than listen to any of their output.

And no, that doesn't mean I think musicians should work for nothing or something.

Dan Lawrence
09-24-2009, 04:35 AM
And banning IP's is silly. Pirates will use other IPs. Maybe they'll get innocent people blocked off.


I suspect most aren't too bothered at stopping the minority of individuals that understand what an IP adress is. If piracy was performed by only a tiny minority of internet experts then noone would care about it. The real issue is not stopping piracy but making piracy more difficult than paying for the vast majority.

salwon
09-24-2009, 05:40 AM
Lily Allen's first album was way better than her second.

Also, make sure that whenever you read a quote by Thom Yorke or Musey McMuse, the voice in your head is their singing voice. It's much more fun that way.

tromik
09-24-2009, 05:56 AM
Wait, Robbie Williams is on one side, and Take That is on the other?

Nellie
09-24-2009, 06:01 AM
Having Robbie Williams on the side of the "good guys" makes me want to support the "bad guys" but they have Lilly Allen as a front which almost, almost swings it. K T Tunstall is in the Good Guy camp, that swings it, I'd crawl naked over broken glass to poke matchsticks in her poo.

Can I base my support for the very future of the music industry entirely on whether I like the musicians supporting one idea or the other?

Dan Lawrence
09-24-2009, 06:09 AM
Looks like all the posts have been deleted from the Lilly Allen blog for some reason. For shame.

Kraaze
09-24-2009, 06:18 AM
Looks like all the posts have been deleted from the Lilly Allen blog for some reason. For shame.

They were the copyrighted intellectual property of the posters. You probably didn't have the right subscription or make the correct micropayments.

Filthy pirate.

Flowers
09-24-2009, 06:31 AM
The guy from Muse is an idiot, he proposes that ISPs should prefer certain types of traffic, that we should encourage ISPs change away from unlimited usage models despite the fact there is no bandwidth shortage. ISPs are not like the new broadcasters, they are ISPs. You can't fault the telephone company for what people say over the phone, and you can't fault the ISP for what people transfer, even though it would be very easy for them to monitor either situation, because privacy is paramount.

But no, by all means, blunder into a billing/taxation scheme that would end up making a person's porn downloads a matter of public record.

Rock8man
09-24-2009, 06:49 AM
Is Lilly Allen the artist who sang that song that goes

"Say what you say,
do what you do
feel what you feel
just as long as its real"

(or something close to that?)

That's a great song. Where do I know that song from? Probably PGR4.

BobJustBob
09-24-2009, 07:33 AM
I don't see how bandwidth caps affect music anyway. MP3 albums are pretty tiny.

extarbags
09-24-2009, 08:31 AM
Alternate thread title: A bunch of self-important jackasses battle for pompous supremacy.

Andrew Mayer
09-24-2009, 08:40 AM
TechDirt busted Allen for having a bunch of mixtape .mp3s on her site. (http://techdirt.com/articles/20090924/0241556300.shtml)

After a bunch of claims of "I did those years ago", and a number of other messages that have nothing to do with her support of the idea of kicking people off the internet, she's taken down the blog, and twittered that it was due to "abuse". IE, I am wrong and cannot admit it.

The point (and this was the same point we tried to make with our original post about copying a Techdirt post) is that incidental infringement is almost impossible to avoid. Everyone infringes in some way or another in the course of a day. One paper found that people infringe many times over in the course of a single day. Everyone does. And while your infringements are a bit more... um... blatant than most, it highlights the problem of having such a draconian action against file sharers. Cutting them off from the internet for something that everyone is doing all the time seems quite problematic, doesn't it?

So, a quick question for you, Lily: Is "well I uploaded those songs before I knew how the music industry worked" a reasonable defense to prevent Lord Mandelson from taking away your internet access or the internet access of anyone else?

Talisker
09-24-2009, 09:17 AM
zing!

Nellie
09-24-2009, 09:21 AM
The whole series of posts on Techdirt are amusing, starting with the one about Allen copy and pasting an entire post without link or credit to support her argument about copyright infrigement and hilarity ensues.

That she's got a bunch of mixtapes featuring other (non EMI) artists' work on her own site is just gravy.

Calistas
09-24-2009, 05:11 PM
That is pretty awesome ;)

and yeah, Muse-dood's position really isn't so great after all. Perhaps the music industry just needs to deal with the fact that the world doesn't care enough about them to support the endeavors of global-star-mega-artists? A world with total piracy probably only favours artists who do great gigs or whoae tunes can get licensed. Is that a good or bad thing?

Bill
09-24-2009, 05:23 PM
Muse-dood also has the odd suggestion that ISPs should become something similar to broadcasters and bear responsibility for paying royalties for media that is exchanged. It seems that if this were the case they would have to analyze everything being sent to see if it were a copyrighted material. That would mean that it in addition to identifying the file ownership of the sender and receiver would have to be established. For example, it wouldn't make sense for a royalty to be charged if I'm emailing the file to myself.

I think it would also mean that encryption and privacy would be untenable for users because everything would need to be examined. And wouldn't the ISP just pass the royalty charge on to the user? Have fun arguing with them over false charges. What also happens with streaming music, such as from Pandora? And the bandwidth issues for analyzing everything would be astronomical I would think.

I'm probably overthinking his stupid idea but it just seems so obviously stupid.

Calistas
09-24-2009, 05:43 PM
I think he was meaning a flat tax on usage, but then who gets the revenue? How is it paid out? Yeah, not the most thought out idea ever.

Coca Cola Zero
09-24-2009, 08:05 PM
I think he was meaning a flat tax on usage, but then who gets the revenue? How is it paid out? Yeah, not the most thought out idea ever.

IIRC Canada has something like that in place already for blank CD sales. Not being a Canadian, I have no idea how well it works or how it may or may not be used to screw artists even more for the benefit of the RIAA or whatever.

Personally I'd rather just have access to a commercial system (or, ideally, multiple competing systems) that works like Zune Pass but with far wider access to artists.

RyanMichael
09-24-2009, 08:31 PM
IIRC Canada has something like that in place already for blank CD sales.

We've got that here too. Except it only applies to the CDs that are formatted for use in set-top CD burners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_States

Disconnected
09-25-2009, 12:14 AM
Well, I pay a small fortune annually for public service TV & radio. I never use either personally, but the fact that they exist raises the bar on quality, integrity and thoroughness for all sorts of things related to TV & radio.

I don't really see how a similar flat addition (arguably a progressive one would hit the cash- & kid- strapped disproportionally) to the price of internet access would be different, or less useful to everyone. That said, I don't really see how the money could be managed fairly either.

Sarkus
09-25-2009, 12:29 AM
I thought this was all nicely covered years ago on that South Park episode. :-)

I believe it's the Grateful Dead that came up with what I suspect will be the future of music - you make the money by selling tickets to concerts where you also sell your licensed merchandise and offer immediate sales of concert disks to folks as they leave. You make tons of money that way and what you can get from online and CD (or whatever) sales ends up being bonus. If people want to share it, then they will (that cat's out of the bag IMHO) but at least it acts as marketing.

You get rid of the record companies demanding a giant chunk of the traditional physical copy sales and the good artists will still end up with plenty of money.

Dan Lawrence
09-25-2009, 12:36 AM
This story has had a happy ending with Radiohead, Lilly and 100 other musicians agreeing to support the 'squeezing' but not the cutting off, of persistant fille sharers:


BBC Story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8274072.stm

FAC Statement:
http://www.featuredartistscoalition.com/showscreen.php?site_id=161&screentype=site&screenid=161&newsaction=showitem&newsid=2588&dc=6&sn=News

We the undersigned wish to express our support for Lily Allen in her campaign to alert music lovers to the threat that illegal downloading presents to our industry and to condemn the vitriol that has been directed at her in recent days.

Our meeting also voted overwhelmingly to support a three-strike sanction on those who persistently download illegal files, sanctions to consist of a warning letter, a stronger warning letter and a final sanction of the restriction of the infringer’s bandwidth to a level which would render file-sharing of media files impractical while leaving basic email and web access functional.


Witty comment from the head of the BPI via the Guardian in response to British Telecom saying they won't help stamp out filesharing because it would be too expensive:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/sep/24/lily-allen-filesharing-twitter


"BT is clinging on to an old business model which is supported by illegal downloading. That's not only unfair to artists and creators, but penalises BT's many customers who use the internet legally," he said.

Tim Partlett
09-25-2009, 03:44 AM
Witty?

Nellie
09-25-2009, 03:50 AM
Bollocks. BT's business model doesn't penalise me, the music industry's business model penalises me on so many fronts it's not funny any more.

Comments like that make it really hard to see the music industry as anything other than a bunch of dusty old wankers sat around a fireplace wondering how best to get the Boat they missed over a decade ago to come back.

Why should ISPs give a shit? Downloaders are paying for the networks, not the check the email once a week crowd.

The music industry, as a whole, can go fuck itself. I'm vaguely surprised that every artist isn't contractually obliged to have track one as their own version of "you wouldn't steal a handbag" on every CD. And I'm not even going there when it comes to CDs.

I resent paying again for music I already own [the right to listen to], I resent not being able to get hold of that recording that I know exists, I resent being continually treated like an idiot and a thief, I resent being told by people churning out mediocre generic pap that I'm ruining their livelyhood, I resent that I've only bought one album of new music this year because there isn't an outlet available anymore where I can encounter new music [that is convenient to me]. I really resent an industry that rewards mediocrity more than any other whinging about how it hasn't got any money to promote new bands when it then goes and chucks £80 million on, to quote Oasis, "the fat dancer from Take That".

The death of the existing music industry can't come soon enough to my mind. Maybe then it can be re-invented, hopefully by the artists themselves, to be a mechanism to do something other than line the pockets of as many people other than the actual musicians as possible.

Dan Lawrence
09-25-2009, 03:52 AM
Witty?

You've never heard supporters of copyright infringement claiming that people who want to sell digital content are 'clinging to an old business model' ?

Its not Oscar Wilde but the canny inversion of roles gave me a little smirk :)

Nellie
09-25-2009, 04:00 AM
This whole chapter has been amusing. I thought copy and pasting someone else's article without acknowledgement to press home the argument that Copyright infringement was bad mmmmkay was going to be hard to top but you might be right.

dermot
09-26-2009, 02:28 AM
You've never heard supporters of copyright infringement claiming that people who want to sell digital content are 'clinging to an old business model' ?

Its not Oscar Wilde but the canny inversion of roles gave me a little smirk :)
I think you're confusing 'wit' with 'unintentional irony'.

wildpokerman
09-26-2009, 02:29 AM
Think I've just reached a point where it's far more entertaining to watch the Music Industry destroy itself than listen to any of their output.

And no, that doesn't mean I think musicians should work for nothing or something.

The whole problem is that people insist in calling the music publishers the "music industry". Just like all buyers and sellers, the internet has brought buyers and sellers a way to communicate and middlemen aren't worth as much.

Unfortunately these middlemen are well connected with the government and have legal claims to distribution rights on music created before the Internet was invented so it's going to be a generation long mess.

I do believe though that there will probably be a crop of new artists who reach breakout success with the Trent Reznor model of managing his own publishing and there will probably be a few more with moderate success who use new publishers who are willing to get paid next to nothing since they need to do next to nothing.

After that the power and money will flow to the new business model and we'll see some change.

Tim Partlett
09-26-2009, 03:06 AM
I think you're confusing 'wit' with 'unintentional irony'.

Now that makes sense. Wit requires skill.