Awesome--Obama to speak before Congress

[Papageno]

...on health care reform, per fivethirtyeight.com (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/biggest-moment-of-his-presidency-well.html). A week from tonight. Joint Session and everything. F'in A.

[Eric T Cheng]

Will he have to show a valid American birth certificate before he could enter?

[Anti-Bunny]

Will we have time to design and print up speech bingo cards?

[forgeforsaken]

He's indoctrinating them, they should have their parents keep them home that day.

[Lum]

As always, the Economist is wonderful (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/09/go_small_or_go_home.cfm).


BARACK OBAMA is planning to address a joint session of Congress on health-care reform. It's not the worst possible move he could make. He could announce the plan in a series of haiku, or he could threaten a small animal until Olympia Snowe gives in to his demands.

[mystery]

I want him to point out Chuck Grassley as the true head of the Death Panels.

"Your leadership has raised the language of hate to the level where we can no longer separate the demagogue from the truly inspired." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKZdOc0nkwU)

[squirrel]

Lum you didn't do it justice.

http://masteroftheuniverse.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/national-lampoon-73-or-ill-shoot-this-dog.jpg

[Chris Nahr]

Why is it "awesome" that a head of state addresses his parliament? Isn't that something he's, like, supposed to do on a regular basis?

[Lum]

It's not that routine in America - usually it only happens once a year, during the State of the Union address. Why it is awesome is that presumably Obama will use the zen powers of his mind to actually announce some tangible goals for health care reform instead of watching Congress flail around like fish out of water, gasping for air, because the death panels pulled them out of the stream.

[Mordrak]

Obama's flubbed occasionally in the town hall format, mostly because there was no real plan to point to yet for support. Though even beside that, he said some pretty inarticulate things. However, prepared speeches are his forte, so hopefully this is stronger.

[Papageno]

When the President in this country addresses a joint session of Congress, people tend to pay attention. It's usually a semi-big deal.

[BanGy.nz]

It's not that routine in America - usually it only happens once a year, during the State of the Union address.You're kidding right? The American political system will never make sense to me.

[Strollen]

You're kidding right? The American political system will never make sense to me.

This from a guy who's head of state is Queen Elizabeth the Second, By the Grace of God Queen of New Zealand and Her Other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. Like that makes sense?

The president fulfills both roles head of state, and head of the government, so when he goes to appears before the other branches of government, it is like a royal visit.

Of course President Barrack Obama doesn't have much in the way of fancy titles, sometimes defender of the free world. But has really great airplanes, and the launch code for 5,000 nuclear weapons :(

[BanGy.nz]

This from a guy who's head of state is Queen Elizabeth the Second, By the Grace of God Queen of New Zealand and Her Other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. Like that makes sense?
Thats only the beginning of it, we've for the Governor-General who is the de facto head of state then we've got the Prime minister. That makes more sense to me then the president addressing congress once in a blue moon.

[Eric T Cheng]

Other countries that have presidents, as the head of state, often have prime ministers who are the head of the government. I can't think of any other country, other than the US, where the president is both the head of state and the head of government.

[extarbags]

Why is it "awesome" that a head of state addresses his parliament? Isn't that something he's, like, supposed to do on a regular basis?

First, it's not a parliament and the President is not a prime minister, which is a significant structural difference that partly accounts for how rarely this kind of thing happens. Second, yes, he's supposed to do this on a regular basis: once a year.

[Strollen]

Other countries that have presidents, as the head of state, often have prime ministers who are the head of the government. I can't think of any other country, other than the US, where the president is both the head of state and the head of government.

Actually, it is pretty common for non-commonwealth countries. The division between parliamentary and the US system (not sure it has a name) has a lot to do with how new the country is and where it is located.

In the new world, Mexico, Brazil, Costa Rico and in theory most other central and Latin American countries have a strong president, who is both the head of state and government. Of course they have a rather nasty habit of ignoring the term limits, the role of the courts, and legislative branch. AFAIK, Canada is one of the few countries in the hemisphere with a Constitutional Monarchy or even parliamentary system.

The Philippines, Indonesia, and few other countries in Asia also have constitutional republic. A number of African state used the US Constitution as model for their own. Although obviously what the constitution says and how the government actually operates are generally different.

The CIA factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html)is a pretty good source of info

[Eric T Cheng]

In the new world, Mexico, Brazil, Costa Rico and in theory most other central and Latin American countries have a strong president, who is both the head of state and government.

I stand corrected.


AFAIK, Canada is one of the few countries in the hemisphere with a Constitutional Monarchy or even parliamentary system.

Antigua and Barbuda, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Grenada, Jamaica, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.


The CIA factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html)is a pretty good source of info

Yup, I have bookmarked for years.

[CheesyPoof]

You're kidding right? The American political system will never make sense to me.

US has a presidnetial system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_system). In short, our executives are not beholden to the legislature (or as tightly I should say) like those in the parliamentary system.

[extarbags]

Antigua and Barbuda, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Grenada, Jamaica, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.

You forgot Nevis, Saint Kitts, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.

[Eric T Cheng]

You forgot Nevis, Saint Kitts, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.

Sorry that was a bad cut-and-paste job.

I forgot about Turks and Caicos Islands (which there have been talks for decades about the British colony becoming part of Canada).

[Murbella]

The congress will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the congress permanently. The last remnants of the old order have been swept away.

[Strollen]

I stand corrected.



Antigua and Barbuda, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Grenada, Jamaica, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.




Ah I forget about the English and French inflicting the parliamentary system on the Caribbean. Actually one of the things I do like about the British system is the question time with the Prime Minister. Of course it helps to have a Winston Churchill or Tony Blair in the hot seat.

[Brian Seiler]

I don't care about the subject of the speech, but I do so dearly wish that this jackass would stop preempting prime time programming just to flagellate his agenda. For those of us with no life that watch thirty hours of television a week when the season is in disrupting the schedule can have dire consequences. How is it particularly helpful for him to do this in prime time after all the big shouty town hall demonstrations have happened anyway? If a bill passes, it will be before the public has another chance to do anything more serious than write some angry letters and pass out holding their breath and waiting for one person's vitriolic screed to make a difference.

Short version: eff you for preempting Glee. I assume. Jerkface.

[Podunk]

You forgot Nevis, Saint Kitts, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.

You forgot Stevie Nicks!

[Papageno]

Short version: eff you for preempting Glee. I assume. Jerkface.

Sir, may I direct you to alt.binaries.tv ? No doubt the episode will be download-able within hours of its first airing.

[bago]

Ran into pro-bama protesters on my way to my friend/landlord mike's house. I wanted to so some absurdist theater like "bring back crystal pepsi" or "end socialized medicine, stop medicare" signs, but just wasn't feeling it.

[krise madsen]

The congress will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the congress permanently. The last remnants of the old order have been swept away.

The exoskeleton has been completed then.

[Jon Rowe]

That economist article has a great point. He should do an oval office address, the reason a lot of people in congress don't support a healthcare bill is because their consituents are biting fingers at protest rallies. Obama needs to speak to the public in a prepared speech, as well as congress.

Still, the speech either way is going to kick ass. The dude is just an awesome public speaker.

[prolix]

The dude is just an awesome public speaker.
I agree, but if he says "let's be clear" one more time I swear to god I am going to punch someone.*

*Attention Secret Service: someone other than the President.**

** Attention local law enforcement: figure of speech.

[cheapfilms]

Obama should say that the health insurance industry is attempting to procure yellowcake.

[Huzurdaddi]

Clearly the administration realizes that health care reform is in dire straits at this point so they need to do something dramatic. Sadly for them, this will be the death knell for health care reform. The right will find/make-up a few 'flaws' within the speech, they will fling them all against the wall and the one that stick will be relentlessly flogged by the media. And that's will be all she wrote for this incarnation of health care reform.

Sure, sure, the congress may pass something just to save face, but it will be very weak.

Poor Obama he is slowly discovering, much as Clinton did, that fighting the media is impossible.

Who knows, maybe the right wing control of the media is slightly weaker than in Clinton's time. Maybe attempting to 'get past the filter' will work -- bwhahaha, sure.

[Strollen]

I agree, but if he says "let's be clear" one more time I swear to god I am going to punch someone.*

*Attention Secret Service: someone other than the President.**

** Attention local law enforcement: figure of speech.

So let's be clear you aren't actually threatening anyone with physical violence.?

[Talisker]

Word is that Fox is refusing to pre-empt whatever it is they've got scheduled, and can't be bothered to show the President addressing the joint session of Congress.

Fucking amazing.

[Matthew Gallant]

To be fair, it's the premier of Glee (http://www.fox.com/glee/) they're doing this for. Even I am going to DVR Obama.

[Papageno]

I watched the pilot of that, and it was pretty decent. Is this premiere going to be a different episode?
I think I'll be Tivo'ing it and watching the Prez live, myself.

[WildElf]

Thats only the beginning of it, we've for the Governor-General who is the de facto head of state then we've got the Prime minister. That makes more sense to me then the president addressing congress once in a blue moon.

Once in a blue moon? Like some pagan ritual? Look, son, we're a Christian nation. Thems bombin' words.

[wildpokerman]

Why is it "awesome" that a head of state addresses his parliament? Isn't that something he's, like, supposed to do on a regular basis?

The difference is it isn't "his" parliament. They are elected separately. It's our president and our legislative body and they act autonomously by design.

[Talisker]

I'm so excited for the premiere of So You Think You Can Dance tonight, I can barely contain myself!

I hear you West coast types will get a King of the Hill rerun.

[Malcolm Tucker]

All you people bitching about TV shouldn't be allowed to vote. Except for American Idol.

[Boinkology]

Did anyone see the speech? I am stuck at work.

[NoWayJose]

It's going on now. No public option.

EDIT: I WAS WRONG!

What's with Congress heckling the president?

[Angie Gallant]

I hope we find out who that was.

[Boinkology]

It's going on now. No public option.

EDIT: I WAS WRONG!

What's with Congress heckling the president?


Gah! Congress is heckling the president? WTF?

[idrisz]

bitchslaps sarah palin.

[Angie Gallant]

Gah! Congress is heckling the president? WTF?

Someone yelled "LIES" when Obama was speaking. He got booed and I am pretty sure I saw Pelosi deploy the death lasers.

Edit: Politico is reporting that it was Joe Wilson from South Carolina. SC keeps fucking it up for everyone.

[Boinkology]

Someone yelled "LIES" when Obama was speaking. He got booed and I am pretty sure I saw Pelosi deploy the death lasers.

Damn! That sounds like the making of a killer animated gif.

It's also sad that not all of our elected officials seem to have a sense of decorum.

[JeffL]

This is the man I voted for. Doing what he does best.

[The Bitter Cynic]

The channel I was watching it on, cut to, of all things, So you think you can dance. WTF?

Well, it was a FOX affiliate.

Found C-span though.

[Gabe Lewis]

That was goddamn excellent speech. Here's to hoping it does some good.

[idrisz]

and the Republican's Hearts are Hardened.....

[The Bitter Cynic]

Very good speech. Very energetic.

Now let's see what the loonies have to say about it.
Will be funny.

[Lorini]

I'm not listening to the loonies, since yet again they've picked someone from Louisiana. Don't they have Republicans in other states?

[asspennies]

Boy, being president sure ages you. Then again, you're already president. Hair color and makeup aren't necessary anymore.

[Boinkology]

I'm not listening to the loonies, since yet again they've picked someone from Louisiana. Don't they have Republicans in other states?

Is there an official rebuttal?!?

[The Bitter Cynic]

Yeah from the Louisiana Republican.

[JeffL]

OMG - the guy giving the opposition speech must feel like a sacrificial lamb - after Obama explicitly and almost heatedly debunked the lies, including the "government wants to take over your health care" he starts talking about Obama wanting the government to take over health care.

That was an incredible speech. The Obama of the campaign, displaying vision and very directly addressing the BS going on.

[Spam]

gives UNBELIEVABLE podium. would vote for/watch again. A+++++

[Boinkology]

Yeah from the Louisiana Republican.

Louisiana is the last place for someone to talk about not needing a public option/coverage for the uninsured.

[alexlitel]

Did I just hear an explosion sound effect?

[J. Matthew Zoss]

This is the man I voted for. Doing what he does best.
Quoted for mother fucking truth.

[JeffL]

Louisiana is the last place for someone to talk about not needing a public option/coverage for the uninsured.

Louisiana already has a very large public option for the uninsured. Millions of LA citizens take advantage of it.

Of course, it usually involves chicken blood and a tiny doll...

[rei]

A birther.

[Papageno]

Good stuff. I'm so glad that he called out the "death panels" stuff as the LIE it is, and used that word (YEAH, THAT WAS FOR YOU, SARAH P.). I'm glad that he also reassured the people who are currently insured that no part of this plan is going to make you give up what you have.

Man, I hope this helps get the Blue Dogs in line.

[JeffL]

Yeah, the biggest obstacle right now is the large number of Dems who are not supporting it.

[rei]

What's the etiquette for yelling at the president during a televised speech?

[bdfinally]

I hope we find out who that was.

Joe Wilson, R-SC

http://innthebasement.com/wp-content/uploads/225px-joe_wilson_official_photo_portrait_color.jpg

[Cubit]

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/103683/thumbs/s-JOE-WILSON-large.jpg


During an appearance on CNN after Obama's speech, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said Wilson's outburst was "totally disrespectful -- [there's] no place for it in that setting or any other and he should apologize immediately."

[rei]

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/09/09/joe-wilson-great-american-hero/

[Lorini]

Apparently the Republican rebuttal guy is a birther. Sigh.

From CNN.com:

The Louisiana congressman -- who has said he has questions about whether the president was born in the United States...

[Lizard_King]

What were all of those fucking photocopies the Republicans kept waving around, like desperate fans at a concert?

[Lorini]

Presumably transcripts of the President's speech, which were released to them before the President gave it.

[Pogo]

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparebar.jsp?typ=2&ind=125&cat=3&sub=39&show=156&cha=156&o=a

Louisiana is the 47th most uninsured state in the nation.

Great job Republicans... great job.

[Jason McCullough]

I was wondering what the GOP crazy would produce. Awesome.

[Anti-Bunny]

Out of all the things to call him a lier over, that's what you choose? Something that is demonstratively true? (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/30/chain-email/no-free-health-care-illegal-immigrants-health-bill) The GOP tailspin continues.

[Papageno]

Joe Wilson, R-SC

http://innthebasement.com/wp-content/uploads/225px-joe_wilson_official_photo_portrait_color.jpg

What an idiot (and a fine example of current GOP pugnacity).

[Robert Sharp]

Love that McCain called it out. I would have voted for that guy, if he hadn't given into the pressures of his party (including the Palin gaffe). Why did he have to grow a pair AFTER he lost?

[Houngan]

NPR explained the "Lies!" Obama said the plan wouldn't cover illegals, but apparently they will be able to purchase the plan with no assistance from the government, whereas citizens will have tax breaks, etc.

I can deal with that. Past the obvious moral imperative, preventative medicine is compelling enough as a savings tool. I say we let them in. Then kick them out.

H.

[Houngan]

Love that McCain called it out. I would have voted for that guy, if he hadn't given into the pressures of his party (including the Palin gaffe). Why did he have to grow a pair AFTER he lost?

Exactly. My righty friends are so polarized that they think I'm lying when I said I would have voted for McCain if he had been the McCain of ten years ago, instead of some pale Bush impersonator. And if he publicly executed Palin and ate her heart.

H.

[Lizard_King]

Presumably transcripts of the President's speech, which were released to them before the President gave it.

But...why? I was thinking it was their counter plan or whatever it was they floated the other day.

[Papageno]

NPR explained the "Lies!" Obama said the plan wouldn't cover illegals, but apparently they will be able to purchase the plan with no assistance from the government, whereas citizens will have tax breaks, etc.

I can deal with that. Past the obvious moral imperative, preventative medicine is compelling enough as a savings tool. I say we let them in. Then kick them out.

H.

And as a practical matter, how freaking likely is it that undocumented people would draw attention to themselves by signing up for anything even kinda/sorta supervised by the government?

[The Bitter Cynic]

I'm still looking forward to the side-show that conservative media folks put on tomorrow.

Rush and Mr Beck should be very entertaining in their crazy, insane responses.

Maybe Beck will even cry again.

[Lorini]

But...why? I was thinking it was their counter plan or whatever it was they floated the other day.

Obviously if there was going to be a Republican rebuttal, they would have to have a transcript, right? :)

[asspennies]

I hope "You Lie!" is the next great internet meme.

[Andrew Mayer]

I hope "You Lie!" is the next great internet meme.

Please post remixes.

[rei]

They should cut off his head like they did the shoe thrower.

[awdougherty]

http://13.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kpqhjj7a3O1qzpwi0o1_500.jpg

saw this around the intarwebs

[Jason McCullough]

Perfect reaction shot there. Pelosi looks like a 80s teen comedy.

Quick apology (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/09/joe.wilson/index.html). WHO GOT TO JOE!??!?!

Edit: Got YouLie on Dragonmaw. Woo!

[caesarbear]

They should cut off his head like they did the shoe thrower.
You Lie! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntadhar_al-Zaidi)

[Houngan]

http://13.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kpqhjj7a3O1qzpwi0o1_500.jpg

saw this around the intarwebs

Fuck. Printed and posted at work tomorrow, no fucking doubt.

H.

[John Many Jars]

Hoooo-eee! South gone rise agin!

[Huzurdaddi]

I wonder what actions the democrats can take against Joe Wilson? Perhaps out his CIA wife? No, wait that is the other Joe Wilson and these are the democrats I am sure that they will simply accept his apology and Joe Wilson will get national press coverage for free.

Well he sure learnt his lesson!

[Angie Gallant]

http://i30.tinypic.com/t9e71z.gif

[JMR]

Damn, no face palm from Biden.

[Angie Gallant]

Dana Milbank details all the misbehavior on the floor during the speech. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/09/09/ST2009090903520.html)


Wilson was only the most flagrant. There was booing from House Republicans when the president caricatured a conservative argument by saying they would "leave individuals to buy health insurance on their own." They hissed when he protested their "scare tactics." They grumbled as they do in Britain's House of Commons when Obama spoke of the "blizzard of charges and countercharges."

When he asserted that "nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have," there was scoffing and outright laughter on the GOP side. Rep. Jeb Hensarling (Tex.) shook his head in disbelief. Several Republicans shouted "What plan?" and Rep. Louis Gohmert (Tex.) waved at Obama a handwritten poster he made on a letter-size piece of paper: "WHAT PLAN?" Gohmert then took that down and replaced it with another handmade poster that said "WHAT BILL?"

I'm surprised some of the House Republicans didn't start a rousing round of the penis game.

[John Many Jars]

"Gohmert"?

Was he ever a private in the USMC? Does he have a cousin named Goobert? Did he pump gas in Mayberry?

[Angie Gallant]

Forgot this bit.


But while the majority of both parties' lawmakers behaved as adults, the insolence by House Republicans stole the show. There was derisive laughter on that side of the chamber when Obama noted that "there remain some significant details to be ironed out." They applauded as he spoke of "all the misinformation that's been spread over the past few months." They laughed again when he said that "many Americans have grown nervous about reform."

When Obama addressed the charge that he plans "panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens," someone on the GOP side shouted out "shame!" The president went on: "Such a charge would be laughable if it weren't so cynical." "Read the bill!" someone shouted back. Obama mentioned those who accuse him of a government takeover of health care. "It's true," someone shouted back.

[NoWayJose]

And as a practical matter, how freaking likely is it that undocumented people would draw attention to themselves by signing up for anything even kinda/sorta supervised by the government?
Pretty freaking likely, actually, mainly because the government is notoriously terrible at collating that stuff. Don't believe me? Ask an illegal alien if they have a state-issued driver's license.

[Calistas]

This is the man I voted for. Doing what he does best.

The guy from south Carolina? ;)

[NoWayJose]

The GOP tailspin continues.
Yeah, they're not soaring like the democrats, with their 37% approval rating. Maybe you could point out how dumb Palin is again. That seems to work really well.

[NoWayJose]

Rep. Louis Gohmert (Tex.) waved at Obama a handwritten poster he made on a letter-size piece of paper: "WHAT PLAN?" Gohmert then took that down and replaced it with another handmade poster that said "WHAT BILL?"
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1869/gohbert.jpg

[Papageno]

Yeah, they're not soaring like the democrats, with their 37% approval rating. Maybe you could point out how dumb Palin is again.

Well, if the shoe fits. If she hadn't been the VP candidate, maybe we'd have another old white guy as President now. But NOOOOO, McCain was considered too "mavericky" and "RINO" by the GOP powers that be.

I should look into conveying my thanks to them for sinking McCain's candidacy by pressuring him to pick her, though.

[Papageno]

Obviously if there was going to be a Republican rebuttal, they would have to have a transcript, right? :)

Of Obama's speech? As you can clearly see from the Republican rebuttal tonight, no, not really.

[Papageno]

Pretty freaking likely, actually, mainly because the government is notoriously terrible at collating that stuff. Don't believe me? Ask an illegal alien if they have a state-issued driver's license.

That's because, until very recently, the states left the question of legal residency in the country entirely up to the Feds. Now, not so much.

[StGabe]

Love that McCain called it out. I would have voted for that guy, if he hadn't given into the pressures of his party (including the Palin gaffe). Why did he have to grow a pair AFTER he lost?

The problem with McCain, as revealed last campaign cycle, is his "maverick" image is just him being contrarian about issues in a pretty arbitrary and inconsistent manner. In a situation where he has to talk about all the issues and can't just cherry-pick a few, he doesn't do very well. It's a pose. One he does very well by. If you follow his career you'll see that he basically just throws snark up against the wall and then takes up whatever sticks and runs with it. It's basically the same trick as the old con of sending out different predictions to hundreds of people and then targeting the few correct predictions to follow up on ("see, I predicted all the winners last night, give me money and I'll tell you tomorrow's winners"). Beyond that there doesn't really seem to be much insight in his ideas.

Right now, he's saying a lot of stuff that makes sense. Then again, most of these things are just common sense and hardly earth-shattering. It's just that in a room of Republicans the bar for sounding intelligent is pretty damn low.

But hey, I'll still take a little rationality out of the Republicans wherever we can get it.'

P.S. way, way back (when everyone thought it was going to be Hillary vs. Giulianni ;-)) I was very supportive of McCain. I knew I probably wouldn't vote for him but I was glad to see a better kind of Republican in the race to make things more interesting. He really disappointed me though, in the race, and I don't think it was just the fact that he had to compromise for the Conservative base. I think he showed that he'd made his career on a particular kind of political showmanship and really didn't much else to offer. At the very least I'll say this about him: he makes a much better Senator than a President.

[Robert Sharp]

Maybe. But as you say, this appearance that he's just playing it up to look like a maverick is fairly new. I think he really did stand for something back in the day (early 90s maybe? hard to say when it fell away, too). Now he's a shill, I suppose, but he calls out the whackos in a way that many other Republicans do not. Obama is too liberal for me in a lot of ways. I would have liked to have seen a nice Republican candidate. I didn't get that. I'm sad.

[extarbags]

I think McCain genuinely doesn't like dirty politics, but is willing to engage in them any time they'll benefit him personally. You saw this kind of weird duality when his campaign started disintegrating in late September/early October or so last year, where he would end up arguing with his supporters about whether Obama was not a citizen, or a communist, or the Antichrist, or whatever, which they had been told by his running mate. He'd look like he was trying to be decent... but then he'd have no qualms about continuing those things in his ads and in Palin's appearances.

So it makes sense that he appears to be the voice of reason among the Republicans when this kind of stuff goes on. I'm sure that no small part of it is calculated, but I think he genuinely likes to have the chance to play it classy, which he can only do because nothing's really on the line for his own career.

[Anti-Bunny]

Yeah, they're not soaring like the democrats, with their 37% approval rating. Maybe you could point out how dumb Palin is again. That seems to work really well.

Is this a troll? If not, you're thinking of the rest of Qt3 (maybe with the exception of rhinohelix). I think the last time I talked about Palin, it was right after her appointment and I ended up defending her. And that was.. kind of misguided.

The ratings on this speech will probably be worse then his last speech (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/06/abcs-white-house-special-struggled-for-viewers.html) (hey, it is a rerun, after all). At least the public option is dead.

[Bahimiron]

Clearly we need a good Democrat like Preston Brooks to take care of scoundrels like Joe Wilson.

(Only without the pro-slavery thing. We probably don't need that.)

[Anti-Bunny]

Clearly we need a good Democrat like Preston Brooks to take care of scoundrels like Joe Wilson.

Democrats are so violent.

[Blackadar]

Clearly we need a good Democrat like Preston Brooks to take care of scoundrels like Joe Wilson.

(Only without the pro-slavery thing. We probably don't need that.)

I can be bought, though a cane isn't my weapon of choice. :)

[Wallapuctus]

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparebar.jsp?typ=2&ind=125&cat=3&sub=39&show=156&cha=156&o=a

Louisiana is the 47th most uninsured state in the nation.

Great job Republicans... great job.


Haha the guy who sits next to me made that website. Small world.

[Houngan]

Is this a troll? If not, you're thinking of the rest of Qt3 (maybe with the exception of rhinohelix). I think the last time I talked about Palin, it was right after her appointment and I ended up defending her. And that was.. kind of misguided.

The ratings on this speech will probably be worse then his last speech (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/06/abcs-white-house-special-struggled-for-viewers.html) (hey, it is a rerun, after all). At least the public option is dead.

Huh? The public option he spoke about is already dead? When did this happen?

H.

[Brian Rucker]

The ratings on this speech will probably be worse then his last speech (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/06/abcs-white-house-special-struggled-for-viewers.html) (hey, it is a rerun, after all). At least the public option is dead.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/10/cnn-poll-double-digit-post-speech-jump-for-obama-plan/#more-68310

[Slainte Mhath]

Damn, no face palm from Biden.

I was thinking the exact same thing. The face he's making at that moment would have made for an incredible animated falmpalm gif had he only reached up and completed the gesture.


I just don't get this new Republican strategy of dissent via tantrum. Seriously, between the loonies at the town hall meetings, the teabaggers and now the heckling during the speech it seems like the only response Republicans have to anything at this point is to act like children and make asses of themselves. I suppose the plan is to be as disruptive as possible to prevent any actual progress being made, then in 2012 claim that Obama made no progress in his first term. Stay classy guys!

[Brian Seiler]

Huh? The public option he spoke about is already dead? When did this happen?

H.

Barring a major shift in public perception, Conservative Democrats are shying away from any overtly public insurance option for fear of losing their seats next year. If this speech moves the dial for them to the point that they can vote safely for such a thing, it could be shocked back to life, but the White House itself was backing away from the proposition earlier this week. The vague, general consensus amongst the talking heads is that straight up, Medicare style public insurance for all is dead because, while there might be enough Democrats with safe seats or far enough to the left to hammer it through the House, the possibility of breaking a filibuster in the Senate is damned slim, reconciliation won't get them a public option, and even if it could it would divide the party against itself, which is one thing Democrats don't need any more help doing.

[Jon Rowe]

Joe Wilson replaced all your coffee with Sanka. (http://joewilsonisyourpreexistingcondition.com/)

[Hawkeye Fierce]

I suppose the plan is to be as disruptive as possible to prevent any actual progress being made, then in 2012 claim that Obama made no progress in his first term.That is precisely the plan. It's so blindingly obvious that it's REALLY depressing to me that it appears to be working.

[Angie Gallant]

Joe Wilson's opponent in 2010 is the big winner from last night. He's raised over $100,000 in donations on ActBlue (http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079) alone last night, I don't know how much he got directly before his website crashed. And Wilson's seat is not secure. Last time Wilson outspent Miller 2-1 and only won by about 8%.

[Eduardo X]

Joe Wilson replaced all your coffee with Sanka. (http://joewilsonisyourpreexistingcondition.com/)

Joe Wilson Canceled Arrested Development.

[Angie Gallant]

Joe Wilson's opponent has now raised more money in the last 24 hours than Wilson raised for the entire 2008 race.

[NoWayJose]

That's because, until very recently, the states left the question of legal residency in the country entirely up to the Feds. Now, not so much.
Sounds like you agree with me, then, since the Feds will be the ones running healthcare.

[JeffL]

While the "You Lie" shout out was embarrassing, booing the president during an address to Congress is nothing new. It's pretty classless, IMO, but this isn't the first time.

I can't believe that the Republicans had the speech transcript (yet I'm sure they did) and still had the rebuttal lead off with the "government wants to take over the health care system" line, afrer Obama very specifically debunked that claim. The whole opposition rebuttal after these addresses seems pretty petty anyway, no matter who's in power.

[CheesyPoof]

Joe Wilson's opponent has now raised more money in the last 24 hours than Wilson raised for the entire 2008 race.

How much has Joe Wilson raised?

[unbongwah]

Joe Wilson's opponent has now raised more money in the last 24 hours than Wilson raised for the entire 2008 race.
I hope Rob Miller sends Wilson a fruit basket as a thank-you gift.

After all, he can afford it now thanks to Joe.

[Lorini]

Yeah one of their keystones is patriotism, so it's very un-Republican to tell the President of the United States that he is a liar in public like that.

[Angie Gallant]

Unfortunately, Republicans don't have a site like Act Blue where I can check. Rob is up to over $300,000 (http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079) now, and that doesn't count donations directly to his website.

[Jazar]

I can't believe that the Republicans had the speech transcript (yet I'm sure they did) and still had the rebuttal lead off with the "government wants to take over the health care system" line, afrer Obama very specifically debunked that claim. The whole opposition rebuttal after these addresses seems pretty petty anyway, no matter who's in power.

I'll quote Barney Frank who said yesterday "When [sensible] people make ridiculous arguments against something, it's because that's all they've got." It's all about fear and lies.

[Jason Lutes]

Yeah one of their keystones is patriotism, so it's very un-Republican to tell the President of the United States that he is a liar in public like that.

Situational patriotism is bread and butter to these fuckwits.

[Guido Jones]

Yeah one of their keystones is patriotism, so it's very un-Republican to tell the President of the United States that he is a liar in public like that.

Well, if he wasn't born in the US he's not really the president anyway...

[Lum]

Time has a good analysis of the possible long term impact. (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1921455,00.html)


At the moment Wilson exploded, the outburst seemed like an assault on the President. Soon afterward, it was clear that it had been a gift. Wilson had, in an emotional expression, proven Obama's point: the summer of town halls had been less a discussion than a circus, a forum where misinformation was vindicated by passion, where disrespect was elevated to a virtue. Now the circus had come inside Congress.

[Lurb]

Time has a good analysis of the possible long term impact. (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1921455,00.html)

...
Soon afterward, it was clear that it had been a gift.
...

In fact Obama's face in that gif tells just that. While Pelosi looks like she can't believe what's happening and the other guy facepalms minus the actual palm, Obama's body language is like "gotcha fool"

[Robert Sharp]

Hmmm...good point. You can kind of see Obama smirking a bit there. Well plaid, POTUS, well plaid.

[BobJustBob]

That link also says you can't dismiss "death panels" as a lie.

[John Many Jars]

I seen me one o' them DEATH PANELS

Them death panels come down here I'm gonna kick their ass, I tell you what

[Anaxagoras]

That link also says you can't dismiss "death panels" as a lie.

This is incorrect. Please either read the link or look up "lie" in the dictionary. (I'm not sure which solution would correct your misperception. Perhaps doing both would be most helpful.)

[Papageno]

Sounds like you agree with me, then, since the Feds will be the ones running healthcare.

No, I'm saying that undocumented workers used to be able to get drivers' licenses easily because they were issued by the states (and not the Feds), but the fact that the states are paying more attention now doesn't mean that the Feds aren't still in charge and paying attention.

[awdougherty]

http://newine.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/sunmoon-2001-obelisk.jpg

I WILL KILL YOU WITH MY MIND ABORTION!!1!11!

[BobJustBob]

This is incorrect. Please either read the link or look up "lie" in the dictionary. (I'm not sure which solution would correct your misperception. Perhaps doing both would be most helpful.)


"To heckle is bad enough, but to use that one word, the one three-letter word that was not allowed to be used in my house while I was growing up, is beyond the pale."

Clyburn's own outrage was a bit overdrawn. Just before Wilson's scream, Obama himself had accused his unnamed opponents of offering "a lie, plain and simple."

...

On this point, there is some discussion that could reasonably take place, if people agreed to speak reasonably.

...

It is clearly a distortion to call these groups "death panels," as some critics like Sarah Palin have.

...

But it is also legitimate to question the makeup and restrictions on these government panels.

Moron.

Edit: Actually, that's harsh. You may not be a moron. You may just be a guy who jumps the gun on insulting other people by telling them to read articles that you have not read.

[Ben Sones]

1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression


It is clearly a distortion to call these groups "death panels," as some critics like Sarah Palin have. As it now stands, Congress sets reimbursement rates, while private insurers routinely decide what potentially lifesaving treatments are worth paying for, and no one calls either death panels. But it is also legitimate to question the makeup and restrictions on these government panels.

Time is not saying that the "death panel" thing is not a lie. It is. Time is saying that there is a legitimate debate to be had about government panels regulating health care, if we could but put aside all the lying and agree to have it.

[Caryn Law]

I can't stop watching the animated gif of that moment. Pelosi looks like death lasers are about to shoot out of her eyes, and Biden looks like Dad when he finds out you got busted for shoplifting: "I'm very disappointed in you, son." (Slow head shake) It's the look that's actually WORSE than if he'd just yelled at you.

Not that I had any respect for Joe Wilson already, but after reading this thing on Newsweek (http://newsweek.tumblr.com/post/184740990/as-a-retired-army-national-guard-colonel-joe) and finding out the guy is a retired National Guard Colonel, I have even less. A retired colonel actually heckling the Commander-in-Chief during an address? That's just all SORTS of disrespectful.

[Anti-Bunny]

heckling the Commander-in-Chief during an address? That's just all SORTS of disrespectful.
Yeah, the democrats would never do that to the POTUS in congress during an address... oh wait

[Caryn Law]

Yeah, the democrats would never do that to the POTUS in congress during an address... oh wait

I believe the words I used were "retired Colonel", not "Republican". My post wasn't about the political affiliation of the person, it was about a retired colonel obviously having forgotten the respect and decorum he's supposed to give to the Commander-in-Chief.

[madkevin]

http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2009/09/08/tomo/story.jpg

[Angie Gallant]

Rob Miller is up over half a million now.

[Anti-Bunny]

I believe the words I used were "retired Colonel", not "Republican". My post wasn't about the political affiliation of the person, it was about a retired colonel obviously having forgotten the respect and decorum he's supposed to give to the Commander-in-Chief.

So is it disrespectful if you're not a 'retired colonel'?

[Hanacker]

So is it disrespectful if you're not a 'retired colonel'?

It's less disrespectful. We hold our military officers to a higher standard than our politicians.

[Anti-Bunny]

It's less disrespectful. We hold our military officers to a higher standard than our politicians.

You mean former military officers. He's retired. Unless he's wearing a uniform when he does it, it's no different.

[Matthew Gallant]

Biden looks like Dad when he finds out you got busted for shoplifting: "I'm very disappointed in you, son." (Slow head shake)
Joe Biden, statesman-grandpa.

[Hanacker]

You mean former military officers. He's retired. Unless he's wearing a uniform when he does it, it's no different.

He's obviously not required to respect the president, but I'd hope and expect that he'd maintain a lot of the etiquette he learned in the military even after retirement. While active, they definitely expect you to act respectful even when you're off-duty.

[Anti-Bunny]

He's obviously not required to respect the president, but I'd hope and expect that he'd maintain a lot of the etiquette he learned in the military even after retirement.
So.. congressmen wouldn't know to respect the president unless they were previously a "retired Colonel"? You and I seem to know that, and I presume you aren't a Colonel.

Congress owes him a certain degree of respect as per parliamentary procedure. Period. That he's a vet has got nothing to do with that.

[Matthew Gallant]

I wouldn't expect anything from a retired colonel that was a career Chairborne and No-Go in the JAG corps.

[jeffd]

Hilariously - Wilson's all up in arms over government run health insurance despite the fact that he and his entire family benefit from that exact same thing.

[Anaxagoras]

Edit: Actually, that's harsh. You may not be a moron. You may just be a guy who jumps the gun on insulting other people by telling them to read articles that you have not read.

Or perhaps I'm a guy who understands the English language and can read at higher than an 8th grade level.

Seriously, dude. Think before you post. Not just when responding to me, but in general. Please.

[JeffL]

Hilariously - Wilson's all up in arms over government run health insurance despite the fact that he and his entire family benefit from that exact same thing.

Actually, and you may already know this, Congress does not get government run health insurance. I always assumed they did before I got into researching the whole health care issue some time ago.

Congress has a plan in which they are allowed to pick from a number of private insurance companies from around the country (e.g. Blue Cross, etc.)

[jeffd]

Jeff: As a former army Colonel, Wilson and his family are eligible for a government-run plan.

EDIT: Should be more clear - Wilson's a former Colonel and thus gets access to government care; and his four sons are also in the army, thus getting care. So the whole family is taking advantage of SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!

[Papageno]

Actually, and you may already know this, Congress does not get government run health insurance. I always assumed they did before I got into researching the whole health care issue some time ago.

Congress has a plan in which they are allowed to pick from a number of private insurance companies from around the country (e.g. Blue Cross, etc.)

Perhaps so, but I bet the law says that they can't be denied coverage or dropped like a hot potato on bullshit grounds as soon as they try to actually make a claim (at least as long as they're still Members of Congress). Oh, and of course the taxpayer is paying whatever the premiums are in full.

[JeffL]

Jeff: As a former army Colonel, Wilson and his family are eligible for a government-run plan.

Duh. (My family is Air Force and I tease my mom that she opposes government run health care while she is on it and has been for 50 years. Makes her mad, makes me laugh.)

So again - duh. But I do think most people think Congress is on a special government run health care program rather than each member having insurance via a standard commercial insurance company. Though the way it is set up, with them able to pick from a variety of insurance companies nationwide, is something in the various forms of the bills out there.

[JeffL]

Perhaps so, but I bet the law says that they can't be denied coverage or dropped like a hot potato on bullshit grounds as soon as they try to actually make a claim (at least as long as they're still Members of Congress). Oh, and of course the taxpayer is paying whatever the premiums are in full.

Actually, I looked that up. It appears they are subject to the same cruel and hopefully soon illegal actions of finding some nit-picky reason to deny service once you need it that everyone else is.

However, since those actions are initiated at the whim of the insurance company, it is highly unlikely they will ever do that to a member of Congress.

Seriously - EVERYONE in this thread must go listen to the This American Life episode called Fine Print and listen to the segment in segment three, Restrictions May Apply. If you don't get so angry that you want to immediately disband all medical insurance companies, you don't have a heart. I haven't been that angry in a long time.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1308

[jeffd]

Umm, OK that's great Jeff but that has nothing to do with my point. Not sure why you're bringing it up.

[JeffL]

Umm, OK that's great Jeff but that has nothing to do with my point. Not sure why you're bringing it up.

Because I can't spell non sequitur.

[Papageno]

I'm a This American Life fan, and I'm sure I've heard that program, but it's preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned. I think it's a fucking national disgrace that we haven't figured out how to do what Germany, France, Switzerland, Canada, the UK, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Spain, Italy and Japan figured out how to do a long time ago. It's mind-boggling that we have so little social solidarity that it's even a controversy.

[AaronSofaer]

Has there been a recording of this posted anywhere? Can't find one.

[Papageno]

Ask and you shall receive, knock, and the door shall be opened to you.:

Link to the President's Speech on C-Span (http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2009/09/09/HP/A/22900/Pres+Obamas+Health+Care+Speech+to+JointSession+of+ Congress.aspx)

(assuming you meant the speech)

[Joe M.]

There is quite a bit of social solidarity behind some sort of public option. I think the last polls were inching towards 80%? However, you never see these numbers in the media, who are largely funded by advertising dollars from mega corporations whose interests aren't served by the public option. Honestly, if a million people marched on Washington, DC, for a pro-single payer system, how much air time do you think they'd receive? Anything that approached the breathless reporting from teabagger conventions? I HIGHLY doubt it.

Anyway, I don't know why we're still trying to reason with these people. The fact I think but don't know this sign is just satire speaks volumes about the lunatic fringe.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6922/gaycomputer.jpg

[JeffL]

I'm a This American Life fan, and I'm sure I've heard that program, but it's preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned. I think it's a fucking national disgrace that we haven't figured out how to do what Germany, France, Switzerland, Canada, the UK, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Spain, Italy and Japan figured out how to do a long time ago. It's mind-boggling that we have so little social solidarity that it's even a controversy.

I think if all of America heard that segment, of the woman crying as she tells the committee how she walked around with major cancer growing in her for months because the insurance company dug and found something about her having had acne, the dermatologist begging the insurance company to pay for the surgery and save her life and them refusing, the three CEOs, after all the similar testimony, telling the committee they would NOT pledge to never again withhold needed medical treatment due to a clearly unintentional mistake in the application (and they have teams who immediately go looking for excuses to withhold treatment in big cases) because the law doesn't prevent them from doing this - if America heard this segment, these guys would have to hide in a cave somewhere.

[Joe M.]

I think if all of America heard that segment, of the woman crying as she tells the committee how she walked around with major cancer growing in her for months because the insurance company dug and found something about her having had acne, the dermatologist begging the insurance company to pay for the surgery and save her life and them refusing, the three CEOs, after all the similar testimony, telling the committee they would NOT pledge to never again withhold needed medical treatment due to a clearly unintentional mistake in the application (and they have teams who immediately go looking for excuses to withhold treatment in big cases) because the law doesn't prevent them from doing this - if America heard this segment, these guys would have to hide in a cave somewhere.

SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST

[JeffL]

SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST

LOL!

Seriously - I doubt that most of America is truly aware of what's going on like this with the insurance companies. It absolutely should be made officially criminal.

[Skipper]

SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST

You forgot to ask for his birth certificate as well.

[AaronSofaer]

Ask and you shall receive, knock, and the door shall be opened to you.:

Link to the President's Speech on C-Span (http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2009/09/09/HP/A/22900/Pres+Obamas+Health+Care+Speech+to+JointSession+of+ Congress.aspx)

(assuming you meant the speech)


For anyone like me who wanted to see this, the actual speech starts at around 5:30.

[Joe M.]

You forgot to ask for his birth certificate as well.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3116/birther.jpg

[Papageno]

OK, what exactly does 12345 mean when it's at the end of a post like that? Maybe I'm too old to just know or something.

I love this guy's spelling of "certificate." Hey, I suppose it's progress that he knew it starts with a "c."

[Joe M.]

You need five characters to post. :(

but apparently not for images. fixed!

[Skipper]

Awesome pic Joe, I had a good laugh at that.

[Papageno]

Anyway, I don't know why we're still trying to reason with these people. The fact I think but don't know this sign is just satire speaks volumes about the lunatic fringe.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6922/gaycomputer.jpg

Here's the hint that it's satire: all the words are spelled correctly. :-)

Oh, and I'm totally on board with the Dems pushing this thing through by themselves, by any legal means necessary. If Snowe wants to play coy let her.

[madkevin]

That and she's holding a rainbow flag.

[JeffL]

Here's the hint that it's satire: all the words are spelled correctly. :-)

Oh, and I'm totally on board with the Dems pushing this thing through by themselves, by any legal means necessary. If Snowe wants to play coy let her.

Problem is that they don't have all the Dems in the fold yet.

[Jonathan Crane]

JeffD vs JeffL

FIGHT!

[bago]

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/nancyreacts.gif

[BobJustBob]

Or perhaps I'm a guy who understands the English language and can read at higher than an 8th grade level.

Clearly that's not it.

[Matthew Gallant]

So, Wilson was/still is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, voted to keep the rebel flag flying over the SC capitol, and of all the things that might have pissed off the GOP in Obama's speech, his outburst concerned the part about immigrants.

I have detected a pattern!

[rhinohelix]

I love how with no final bill, nothing even brought to the floor in the Senate, anyone can claim anything is "debunked". It has been no such thing. You can't "debunk" a claim about something that doesn't exist yet. The bill very well could have Logan's Run-style executions for anyone over 30; until it is passed, we don't know. Given how bloated and loaded with special interest perks the other bills this Congress has written and how little time they spend actually reading and debating them, it could pass and *still* no one would know what was in the thing.

Wilson's outburst was unfortunate and untoward. It would have been moreso if the President himself had not just used the "L" word about his opponents.

I think this would have been a great speech to give 3 months ago. Now, I think its way too little, too late, and other than some marginal, momentary bump with elected Democrats, support for this will continue to erode away.


Is this a troll? If not, you're thinking of the rest of Qt3 (maybe with the exception of rhinohelix).

I was mentioned! You like me, you really like.... ok, THAT has been debunked. :)

[Ben Sones]

I love how with no final bill, nothing even brought to the floor in the Senate, anyone can claim anything is "debunked". It has been no such thing. You can't "debunk" a claim about something that doesn't exist yet. The bill very well could have Logan's Run-style executions for anyone over 30; until it is passed, we don't know.

So that goes both ways, right? If nothing can be debunked because nothing is determined, then surely all the hand wringing about terrible things in the bill is equally ludicrous. Right? I mean, why does anything have to be "debunked" in the first place, if nothing substantitive exists yet?

[Joe M.]

Did someone just imply Republicans haven't been lying their asses off about health care? Normally I hate people who say this, but: Really?

[rhinohelix]

So that goes both ways, right? If nothing can be debunked because nothing is determined, then surely all the hand wringing about terrible things in the bill is equally ludicrous. Right? I mean, why does anything have to be "debunked" in the first place, if nothing substantitive exists yet?

Actually, it doesn't go both ways. since a negative can't be proven. Its part of being the party in power, as each side seems to struggle with it when trying to enact their agenda.

[Rasputin]

Actually, it doesn't go both ways. since a negative can't be proven. Its part of being the party in power, as each side seems to struggle with it when trying to enact their agenda.

That's... wow.

[Papageno]

Wilson's outburst was unfortunate and untoward. It would have been moreso if the President himself had not just used the "L" word about his opponents.

Come on, rh, the President used the L word because there was no other word that properly denotes the "death panels" bullshit, which was spun out of nothing more than a proposal to actually compensate doctors for the time they'd spend IF a patient VOLUNTARILY asked about what their end-of-life options might be, like hospice or whatever. He didn't call out Sarah "pants on fire" Palin by name because he was too diplomatic, but when the former VP candidate of the opposing major party spouts LaRoucheian nonsense, what other word is there to use?

[Eric T Cheng]

It looked like Eric Cantor was Tweeting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6s9ngey_7M) during President Obama's speech.

[Ben Sones]

Actually, it doesn't go both ways. since a negative can't be proven.

No. "Negative," in that context, does not mean "critical" or "pessimistic," in the sense that one might run a negative campaign or write a negative review of the latest Madden game. It means "not falsifiable." The specific claims made by the Republicans about the health care bill are all falsifiable. When Joe Wilson claims that the health care bill will provide health care to illegal immigrants, that is a falsifiable claim (and is, in fact, false), and therefor does not qualify as a "negative." When Sarah Palin says that the health care bill calls for the creation of death panels that will decide whether seniors live or die, that is a falsifiable claim. In fact, just to head off further confusion, any claim in the format "the health care bill will do X" is falsifiable, because one can look at the proposed legislation and see if X is in it. If it's not--either because the bill specifies the opposite of X, as is the case with Joe Wilson's claim, or even because X has not been determined one way or the other, as you propose--then the statement is false.

[WarrenM]

Please either read the link or look up "lie" in the dictionary.
People are fucking retarded. On the radio last night, this guy calls in to defend Wilson and states that Obama DID lie. The radio host tells him, "It says right here that it's illegal for illegal immigrants to get health care under this plan". "Yes", the guys says, "but congress shot down an amendment that would make it mandatory to prosecute those found on the plan illegally so, effectively, Obama lied".

The radio host was completely befuddled as he tried to piece together how that meant that Wilson was right to call out Obama as a liar. He kept falling back to his grip on reality and pointing out the actual words that are in the health care bill but the caller was too strong and eventually the host had to let him go before he was sucked into a vortex of stupid.

[WarrenM]

It would have been moreso if the President himself had not just used the "L" word about his opponents.
The difference is that they were and he wasn't.

[Moore]

Actually, it doesn't go both ways. since a negative can't be proven. Its part of being the party in power, as each side seems to struggle with it when trying to enact their agenda.

Right but the NUTFUCKINGCRAZIES have been positively lying their asses off. death panels.

[Robert Sharp]

What does that mean? Why can't a negative be proven? Not all of them can be (but not all positive claims can be either). If I say you are not standing next to me, I can prove that, by looking around a bit. I can also disprove negatives. If someone says you didn't write "a negative can't be proven" I could simply direct them to this thread and show that, in fact, you did write that.

Where do people get these strange ideas?

[madkevin]

What does that mean? Why can't a negative be proven? Not all of them can be (but not all positive claims can be either). If I say you are not standing next to me, I can prove that, by looking around a bit. I can also disprove negatives. If someone says you didn't write "a negative can't be proven" I could simply direct them to this thread and show that, in fact, you did write that.

Robert, prove to me that you have never killed a hobo.

[Eduardo X]

Robert, prove to me that you have never killed a hobo.

I started a website, robertsharpmurderedahobo.blogspot.com. Why won't Robert Sharp refute the accusation SOME PEOPLE HAVE MADE that he killed a hobo? I'm not saying he DID kill a hobo, but I'm concerned that he could have.

[Ben Sones]

Where do people get these strange ideas?

The phrase rhinohelix used refers to the fallacy in which an absence of evidence is assumed to be evidence of absence (to paraphrase Carl Sagan). It has little or nothing to do with what we are talking about, and is not axiomatic in the sense that he thinks that it is.

For example, other "negatives" that can be easily verified:

1. White males do not exist.
2. Republicans cannot win elections.
3. This thread cannot get any dumber.

[NoWayJose]

I think if all of America heard that segment, of the woman crying as she tells the committee how she walked around with major cancer growing in her for months because the insurance company dug and found something about her having had acne, the dermatologist begging the insurance company to pay for the surgery and save her life and them refusing, the three CEOs, after all the similar testimony, telling the committee they would NOT pledge to never again withhold needed medical treatment due to a clearly unintentional mistake in the application (and they have teams who immediately go looking for excuses to withhold treatment in big cases) because the law doesn't prevent them from doing this - if America heard this segment, these guys would have to hide in a cave somewhere.
Is anyone opposing insurance reform at this point? I mean, anyone who counts? The nightmare stories about insurance companies dropping middle-class enrollees have done their job, let's move on to trying to convince those same people to help pay for everyone else.

[wisefool]

I think you have it backwards - is there anyone who is for insurance reform?

Also, that woman has the rainbow flag.

[Anti-Bunny]

Also, that woman has the rainbow flag.

http://goodnewspirit.com/rainbow.htm

tl;dr: She's taking it back.

[Hugin]

The phrase rhinohelix used refers to the fallacy in which an absence of evidence is assumed to be evidence of absence (to paraphrase Carl Sagan). It has little or nothing to do with what we are talking about, and is not axiomatic in the sense that he thinks that it is.

For example, other "negatives" that can be easily verified:

1. White males do not exist.
2. Republicans cannot win elections.
3. This thread cannot get any dumber.

But that's not what Rhinohelix was talking about, or what the Republicans are doing (well, some of what they're doing are provable falsehoods), or what the negative proof logical fallacy means. If an assertion is made that has available proof or evidence to disprove it, it's simply a falsehood or an error.

"Under Obamacare, Redheaded people will be rounded up and harvested for their organs. There's no language whatsoever in the House bills prohibiting such a thing. This ghoulish redhead genocide appalls and concerns me and my constituents."

[Bahimiron]

Actually, it doesn't go both ways. since a negative can't be proven. Its part of being the party in power, as each side seems to struggle with it when trying to enact their agenda.

It seems obvious that we should pass the bill because it could very well call for ice cream parties for everyone on their birthday and they get special hats to wear and apparently Canada is footing the bill. So that seems good.

[John Many Jars]

I support the bill because it doesn't say I can't stop fucking Jim Wilson's mom, and I'm tired and sore.

[jeffd]

More on the Joe Wilson awesomeness:


“As a 31-year Army Guard and Reserve veteran, I know the importance of TRICARE. I know it is important for the military personnel and families at the bases I represent at Fort Jackson, Parris Island, the Marine Corps Air Station at Beaufort, and Beaufort Naval Hospital. I am grateful to have four sons now serving in the military, and I know that their families appreciate the availability of TRICARE.

“Currently, TRICARE provides world class health care to 9.4 million beneficiaries who currently serve or have served this nation. The number of individuals who choose to enroll in TRICARE continues to rise because TRICARE is a low cost, comprehensive health plan that is portable and available in some form world-wide. TRICARE has been steadily improving since it was implemented in 1996, promoted by my predecessor the late Armed Services Committee Chairman Floyd Spence. In fact, in 2008 TRICARE was rated the best health care insurer in the nation according to the Wilson Health Information survey of customer satisfaction. TRICARE also received stellar marks on the 2007 annual federal government report from the 2007American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI).

“I believe TRICARE is one part of our health care system that’s working. The President and Congressional Democrats have said repeatedly that if you like what you have, you can keep it. I believe that our military personnel and their families do like what they have, and that’s why this amendment is needed to ensure that they can keep it.

From: http://www.joewilsonforcongress.com/home/2009/07/amendment-to-healthcare/

OMG SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!!!

[JeffL]

I hate all of this focus on Wilson, how much money his opponent has made since then, how much he has, how Congress wants to officially condemn him, etc.

Obama makes a great and needed speech, and everyone is focused on Wilson shouting at the president. Yeah, it was low class, but hell, the entire Dem side of the aisle booed and heckled Bush during at least one of his speeches to Congress. Relative to the importance of getting the details hammered out into a bill that the Dems can get all of their party behind and then use their majorities to push through, we're back mucking around in the trivia of a misbehaving Congressman.

[Ranulf]

I support the bill because it doesn't say I can't stop fucking Jim Wilson's mom, and I'm tired and sore.

Lets break out the "your momma so..." jokes!

[Calistas]

JeffL, dug up the podcast and it was a great listen. That shit just doesn't happen here, and I am very much more appreciative of the medical services we get in this country now!

[Robert Sharp]

The phrase rhinohelix used refers to the fallacy in which an absence of evidence is assumed to be evidence of absence (to paraphrase Carl Sagan). It has little or nothing to do with what we are talking about, and is not axiomatic in the sense that he thinks that it is.


Right. He's talking about an argument from ignorance, or perhaps negative proof. I'm familiar with it (I teach logic, actually). But as you say, that's NOT the same as saying that negatives can't be proven. Many negatives can be proven, as you listed. madkevin showed the type of negative that is more problematic. What bothers me is not the claim that SOME negatives can't be proven. I admited that in my post (which is why it's odd that madkevin felt he needed to give me an example). What bothers me is the blanket statement that negatives can't be proven. It generalizes from the fallacy of ignorance. It's like when McCullough tries to say that arguments from authority are always fallacies. That's simply not true. Just because SOME arguments from authority are fallacies, that doesn't mean all of them are. An argument from authority can be good or bad. In fact, most inductive fallacy forms are reminders to be more careful and ways of showing us how our logic can be very flawed. Ad hominem arguments aren't always fallacies, for example. But we throw the term around a lot because most of the time when people use an ad hominem they are using it fallaciously.

[Robert Sharp]

I started a website, robertsharpmurderedahobo.blogspot.com. Why won't Robert Sharp refute the accusation SOME PEOPLE HAVE MADE that he killed a hobo? I'm not saying he DID kill a hobo, but I'm concerned that he could have.

I haven't refuted it because I don't like to lie.

[Eduardo X]

I haven't refuted it because I don't like to lie.

Touche.

[Ben Sones]

Right. He's talking about an argument from ignorance, or perhaps negative proof.

Right. The problem is that many of the claims made by the Republicans--including the ones specifically being discussed in this thread--aren't even what he claims. When Joe Wilson says that the statement "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally" is a lie, that is a specific, falsifiable claim. Either the bill proposes to insure illegal aliens or it doesn't, and we can verify the claim by looking at the bill. One could turn it into a fallacious argument from ignorance by saying "Well, the bill may not propose that specifically, but who knows what will be in there by the time they pass it?", as rhinohelix did. But most of the wild claims about the bill that I've seen from the right haven't been of that nature--they have just been straight-up falsehoods.

Additionally, on the hobo matter--I think we've all killed a hobo or two at some point, so I don't think it's entirely fair to condemn Robert on that point. Maybe if he killed fifty hoboes or something. Does anyone have any evidence that he didn't do that?

[JeffL]

It will really help once we actually get a single bill. Those not supporting this (including some Democrats, but obviously most Republicans) are often claiming that, until there's actually a single bill to debate, who knows what will actually be in there. To be sure, there's plenty of BS going on when what they claim isn't in ANY version of any proposed bill, but once there's a single bill up for debate it will be extremely simple to point to the actual language in the bill.

[JeffL]

By the way, here's the best answer to the people screaming about potential "Death Squads" and government deciding who's life is worth the costs: we already have those today.

They're called Insurance Companies. They're the panel who pull the insurance from a woman needing a double mastectomy because of the costs, using her acne from her disclosure form from years ago as an excuse. They're the panel who deny a person access to an expensive drug that can save a life for as many reasons as they can come up with. They're not a proposal in a version of a bill, they are out there today making these "the cost of saving your life is just too much, sorry" decision every F******ng day.

[Joe M.]

I don't think you can reason with these people. They really believe that liberals want to keep their own grandmothers. Well, some of them do, perhaps. It's still such a crazy assertion that I have trouble believing it's anything but crass political maneuvering, and that they know full well they're being completely dishonest.

[MattKeil]

By the way, here's the best answer to the people screaming about potential "Death Squads" and government deciding who's life is worth the costs: we already have those today.

There is no answer to these people. We're talking about people who say they don't want socialized medicine because they prefer Medicare, for fuck's sake.

[Bahimiron]

every F******ng day.

I wish I knew what this curse word was, cos it must be pretty fuckin' foul!

[McGraw McGraw]

I wish I knew what this curse word was, cos it must be pretty fuckin' foul!

I tried to come up with something foul enough, but I failed.

[Gabe Lewis]

I wish I knew what this curse word was, cos it must be pretty fuckin' foul!

This has too many letters but fuck it: "Fartsycuffling."

[zengonzo]

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/118/63286723.jpg


Yep.

[WarrenM]

I hate when these idiots drag their kids out to these things. Leave them alone you fucking twats, they have no idea what that sign you're forcing them to hold up means.

[Jazar]

I'm waiting for Obama to respond to this

http://i27.tinypic.com/i19sfm.jpg

[JeffL]

I wish I knew what this curse word was, cos it must be pretty fuckin' foul!

It is - there are new, unexplored depths of obscenity in, for example, taking a woman who you as an insurance company accepted after she filled out her application and then, years later, when she needs coverage to save her life, assigning people to pour through her application to try to find any excuse at all to kill her rather than pay.

I am far more of a capitalist than most on this board, and far less of a socialist than most on this board, but I've come to the conclusion that health insurance is not something that should be left to companies who are rewarded or punished based on how much money they make.

Unfortunately, far too many people in Congress on both sides are in the pockets of the insurance lobbies and thus the odds of truly taking these companies to the woodshed and making radical changes is zero.

[bigdruid]

It is - there are new, unexplored depths of obscenity in, for example, taking a woman who you as an insurance company accepted after she filled out her application and then, years later, when she needs coverage to save her life, assigning people to pour through her application to try to find any excuse at all to kill her rather than pay.

Is it OK if the woman has lung cancer, but omitted the fact that she's a smoker on her application?

So long as there's no mandate where people *must* buy insurance, insurance companies have to be able to protect themselves through rescission and by omitting coverage for pre-existing conditions.

I'm really surprised there isn't more regulation to prohibit abuse of this, though. And, yeah, I wonder how those people sleep at night.

[Tortilla]

Is it OK if the woman has lung cancer, but omitted the fact that she's a smoker on her application?


No.




So long as there's no mandate where people *must* buy insurance, insurance companies have to be able to protect themselves through rescission and by omitting coverage for pre-existing conditions.


Yeah, but the only ethical time to do that is up front, not after years of accepting premiums and letting people think they have coverage.



I'm really surprised there isn't more regulation to prohibit abuse of this, though. And, yeah, I wonder how those people sleep at night.

Insurance companies employ good lobbyists and there's always people willing to do horrible things for money.

[JeffL]

Is it OK if the woman has lung cancer, but omitted the fact that she's a smoker on her application?


Not at all what I'm talking about. Please go listen to the audio clip I linked earlier. If you listen to that and do not get severely angry you have no heart. They have internal policies where they work hard to find anything to avoid paying out on expensive treatments. We're talking about things like the woman Obama referred to who had a dermatologist reference in her application to treatment for acne. They denied her treatment for breast cancer because of that, even though the dermatologist called the insurance company and literally begged them to give her the treatment and explained over and over that the acne treatment in no way could be responsible for breast cancer. They KNEW it had nothing to do with breast cancer, but used it as an excuse to deny this woman treatment for a cancer that was spreading every day.

Then when the three CEOs are asked if they will commit to not withhold treatment for customers who have made minor, unrelated, unintentional mistakes in their applications (applications the company has seen and accepted for the years of the customer being on their roles) they say no. No, they will continue this practice because the law allows them to. And because it helps them increase their profits.

These people make Madoff look like a candidate for sainthood.

[bago]

Is it OK if the woman has lung cancer, but omitted the fact that she's a smoker on her application?

So long as there's no mandate where people *must* buy insurance, insurance companies have to be able to protect themselves through rescission and by omitting coverage for pre-existing conditions.

I'm really surprised there isn't more regulation to prohibit abuse of this, though. And, yeah, I wonder how those people sleep at night.

They will invoke rescission if you fail to disclose that you had acne as a teenager. If you had a button that you could press for a ten-thousand dollar bonus but you might cause someone random person on the planet to die, would you press it?

That's the system we have now. Push the rescission button, randomly ruin or kill somebody else, and get a fucking bonus. It's not a death panel, it's a fucking death lottery, where letting people die gives you a year end bonus.

This is reality (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/06/16/when-health-insurance-isnt-health-insurance/).

Man up and face the facts. It is more profitable for a company to let you die if you are afflicted than to ensure that you remain a productive member of society. A corporate charter demands you take the money every damn time.

Is this moral?

[MattKeil]

http://img2.pict.com/40/6f/6c/1609959/0/bgwsx3.jpg

[zengonzo]

Beautiful ..

[zengonzo]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7476/qdg6w.png

[BanGy.nz]

How do you solve the problem of "us verses them" that has seem to taken over your political system?

[Lux]

How do you solve the problem of "us verses them" that has seem to taken over your political system?

I would say education... but that's a central issue on which "US vs. THEM" is vigoursly deployed.

[Joe M.]

It's probably been linked elsewhere, but Anthony Weiner on Real Time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yl-Ud4QziU

[Papageno]

What's especially sad is that much of the especially nasty vitriol this time around comes from people who find it unthinkable that we have a black President with "a funny name". That's what "I want my country back" is code for. The unspoken part is "...from the brown people."

[Disconnected]

How do you solve the problem of "us verses them" that has seem to taken over your political system?

Rewrite your constitution. I'm pretty sure there's 3 main causes of the problem you describe: inadequate democracy, inadequate news agencies, and an inadequate economic system.

A binary party system isn't democratic. No two parties can remotely represent the interests of such a large and diverse population. Whatever the product of such a system is, there is no chance what so ever it is the will of the people.

Your news agencies have no interest in or incentive to keep your population informed, it is held to no standard and it has no competition in keeping your population informed. Basically, with your current configuration news agencies have to not produce what they exist to produce to stay in business.

The primary functions of your economic system are to generate wealth, and to put that wealth under the control of as few actors as possible. Arguably the latter is much more undesirable than the former is desirable, especially when those few actors can buy even such things as news and political representation.

If you want to kill off the Us vs. Them mentality, you have to have at least a tiny trace of social and economic coherence. The system you have creates the exact opposite.

[Omniscia]

How do you solve the problem of "us verses them" that has seem to taken over your political system?

I think Kang has it right:



Bob Dole gives an electoral speech:

Announcer: Ladies and Gentlemen, 73-year-old candidate, Bob Dole.
Kang: Abortions for all.
[crowd boos]
Very well, no abortions for anyone.
[crowd boos]
Hmm... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for
others.
[crowd cheers and waves miniature flags]

Courtesy of SNPP.com (http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F02.html)

[Calistas]

I like this amusing comment from the linked story


A friend of mine was jogging and stepped off the curb and sprained her ankle. She went to the ER 'cuz she thought it was broken and thought nothing of it, filing it with her insurance.
About a month later, she got a form that she was denied, so she called and they said that they didn't cover domestic violence injuries, and since she had said to the ER doc that her boyfriend pushed her off the porch they wouldn't pay.
Of course it was all b.s.; she tried to track down the ER people to figure out what the heck was going on. After spending something like 20 hours getting the run around from the ER and especially the insurance company, she finally just paid the $170 bucks or whatever she owed.

[MarinusWA]

I hate when these idiots drag their kids out to these things. Leave them alone you fucking twats, they have no idea what that sign you're forcing them to hold up means.
Considering some of the things I saw in this thread, the kids aren't the only ones with no idea.

[bago]

They will invoke rescission if you fail to disclose that you had acne as a teenager. If you had a button that you could press for a ten-thousand dollar bonus but you might cause someone random person on the planet to die, would you press it?

That's the system we have now. Push the rescission button, randomly ruin or kill somebody else, and get a fucking bonus. It's not a death panel, it's a fucking death lottery, where letting people die gives you a year end bonus.

This is reality (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/06/16/when-health-insurance-isnt-health-insurance/).

Man up and face the facts. It is more profitable for a company to let you die if you are afflicted than to ensure that you remain a productive member of society. A corporate charter demands you take the money every damn time.

Is this moral?

For profit insurance is a tragedy of the commons as long as there are no mandates for banning rescissions. Everyone takes from the young and healthy, and screws the old and in-need. Unless you actually spread risk around, you are simply profit taking.

Hayek (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/09/the-socialism-implicit-in-the-social-cost-of-carbon.html) knew this and Adam Smith of the famed invisible hand was behind progressive taxation.

Some economists trace the origin of modern progressive taxation to Adam Smith, who wrote in The Wealth of Nations:

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

I would love to see some glibertarian argue against Hayek and Smith. Surely some conservative has the substance to stand against these intellectual giants.

[Spam]

Suddenly progressive property and/or luxury taxes equals progressive income taxes.

[ReptileHouse]

Suddenly progressive property and/or luxury taxes equals progressive income taxes.

This (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/example) may help you understand better.

[Spam]

You're going to need to satisfy criticisms of a considerable amount of the findings of "environmental science" before you're allowed to use them.

[bago]

You're going to need to satisfy criticisms of a considerable amount of the findings of "environmental science" before you're allowed to use them.

Surely you know about the tragedy of the commons. What is this planet if not the largest human common out there?

[Jakub]

http://img2.pict.com/40/6f/6c/1609959/0/bgwsx3.jpg
That's golden.

[MarinusWA]

That's golden.
I can see how this is funny and all on the one hand but on the other hand I find this terrifying. What we have here are people who make no attempt whatsoever to properly inform themselves and just live of whatever their favorite talking head is feeding them.

[John Many Jars]

On the bright side, for all the talk about revolution, most of these fat-ass yokels will just go home and watch more TV. And I doubt they're any more likely to vote than they already were.

Assassination attempts and McVeigh-style bombings, now that's another story.