19 Percent of Female AFA Cadets Assaulted

[Midnight Son]

See here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&ncid=533&e=4&u=/ap/20030829/ap_on_re_us/academy_investigation


What the hell is it with today's young men? If you're in the Air Force you're supposed to be an Officer and a Gentleman, not a rapist! The real number is probably higher than that since alot of sex crimes go unreported.

[Matthew Gallant]

It'll be interesting to see the results of the surveys at Army and Navy. Personally, I think it's got to be a cultural oddity of the Air Force and not endemic to any specific academy. I'd like to hope so anyway.

And don't be too quick to blame just the men. At USMA, the only people who are allowed behind a closed door in the barracks with women are other women, after all. I can offer one story of a Navy middie spending a semester with our comapny. She told me all about her one roommate at Annapolis who was all about "go straight when we graduate" (her words). Nothing ever happened, but it's not too hard to imagine a percentage point or two falling that way.

[Mark Asher]

Not to downplay this, but the definition of assault in the survey included unwanted touching. I'm assuming that could be a slap on the butt or someone who's just a bit touchy-feely and rubs a woman's shoulders, gives an unwanted hug, etc.

[Stroker Ace]

The survey also said that 11 percent of senior female cadets and 3 percent of freshman female cadets reported having been the victim of rape or attempted rape since enrolling at the academy.

[Jakub]

I was just flipping through channels and saw Three's Company.

Two chicks talking:

Chick A: "When will men realize that No means No!"
Chick B: "That's right... except when it means maybe."
*giggle*

And people wonder where the miscommunication occurs.

[Case]

I was just flipping through channels and saw Three's Company.

Two chicks talking:

Chick A: "When will men realize that No means No!"
Chick B: "That's right... except when it means maybe."
*giggle*

And people wonder where the miscommunication occurs.

An interesting conclusion to be drawn from a crappy sitcom probably written by a white male. Sheesh.

[XPav]

The survey also said that 11 percent of senior female cadets and 3 percent of freshman female cadets reported having been the victim of rape or attempted rape since enrolling at the academy.

This is bad. Very bad.

[Stroker Ace]

It appears we'd all be safer if the Air Force was replaced with killer robots :(

What's wrong with the culture at the Air Force?

Also, these people are 18 BEFORE they get to the Academy... that was plenty old enough for most of us to learn not to be criminals.

EDIT: How much negative impact can a malignant Air Force culture have on these people, they're legally adults before they get to this place!

[Jakub]

An interesting conclusion to be drawn from a crappy sitcom probably written by a white male. Sheesh.
Man, I suck at trolling.

[Jason McCullough]

For what it's worth, polls of civilian women tend to show rather high numbers on this too.

[XPav]

I just realized that Koontz hasn't shown up, after all, last time he talked about rape, it was absolutely batshit loony stuff. I'm sure he could roll together rape aka "involuntary injecting of inpregnable women with sperm" and military culture to an absolutely kooky theory.

[TimElhajj]

She told me all about her one roommate at Annapolis who was all about "go straight when we graduate" (her words). Nothing ever happened, but it's not too hard to imagine a percentage point or two falling that way.

What does this mean Mathew? Were they really gay women who were going to wait unti they graduated to stop having homosexual relations? And how would this result in a change of percentage point or two? I guess you're talking about a GPA here? I am so surprised homosexual relations is part of any curriculum, much less in the military. :)

I only ask becasue I was able to (sort of) comprehend the ducks, but this is throwing me.

[Jason McCullough]

LUG - lesbian until graduation - is a phenomenon that's been around for a while.

[Anders Hallin]

I could say a few choice words about male culture in general and military culture in particular, but I seem to have lost my ability to write anything longer than short forum posts :(

[Stroker Ace]

I seem to have lost my ability to write anything longer than short forum posts :(Do you have Kalle envy?

[Anders Hallin]

I seem to have lost my ability to write anything longer than short forum posts :(Do you have Kalle envy?
I have 20 pages of subversive feminist propaganda to write before Sunday evening, and do I have any inspiration? Not really. Bah!

[Kalle]

I seem to have lost my ability to write anything longer than short forum posts :(Do you have Kalle envy?

Doesn't everyone. :D

[Lizard_King]

What the hell is it with today's young men? If you're in the Air Force you're supposed to be an Officer and a Gentleman, not a rapist! The real number is probably higher than that since alot of sex crimes go unreported.

I don't think it's a generation specific problem; I'd be willing to wager that a coed military academy 25 or 50 years ago, if such a thing could have even existed, would have been at least as unpleasant.

[ydejin]

What the hell is it with today's young men? If you're in the Air Force you're supposed to be an Officer and a Gentleman, not a rapist! The real number is probably higher than that since alot of sex crimes go unreported.

I don't think it's a generation specific problem; I'd be willing to wager that a coed military academy 25 or 50 years ago, if such a thing could have even existed, would have been at least as unpleasant.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm not sure what would have happened 25 to 50 years ago, but I do think today's society is treating this differently than it would have been handled 25-50 years ago. I think you have two competing trends.

First, a sense of personal honor is something that is sorely lacking in today's society. I teach at a university with an honor code, and sadly, many of today's youth couldn't care less about being honorable. An honor code at a non-military academy just doesn't work very well anymore in my opinion. Now it's possible that it never worked, but I really do believe that virtues have changed and that unfortunately honor, honesty, duty, and chivalry are not valued as much as they were. I would hope that those virtues are still valued at the military academies, but perhaps not.

The second trend though is greater acceptance of women in what was formerly a man's world. From what I've read about the subject (which is admittedly not that much) women are now largely accepted at Annapolis and West Point. Meanwhile the Air Force Academy has goons (including instructors) running around with baseball caps with the acronyms AFABB (or something like that) which apparently stands for "Air Force Academy before there were Bitches". Boy that's enlightened. Some people are trying to make the academy as hostile as possible for women. The weird part is that I would have thought that women would have done the best and been accepted the most at the AFA. Physical strength is important in many Army positions, but I would have thought that it was much less relevant in the Air Force.

I'm assuming sooner or later these problems will go away. Consider for example how hard women had to fight for the right to vote. Nowadays, however, it's impossible to imagine women not being able to vote -- just thinking about it boggles the mind -- of course women should be able to vote.

[Mark Asher]

I don't know what to think about all this. Let me just throw out a hypothetical.

Two undergrads talk. The male says, "I want to see the Friday night movie at the Student Union. Are you going?"

Female says,"That sounds like fun."

Male: "Want to go with me?"

Female: "Sure."

They go to the movie, have a good time, and afterwards the male embraces the female and kisses her, and doesn't break off the kiss. The female, perhaps surprised a bit, is passive. The male then gropes her and squeezes her breast. The female has done nothing to encourage this besides being passive.

Is this an assault?

Lets say the female likes the male but doesn't like being groped at this point. Lets say she doesn't know what to do, so does nothing, and after a few moments the male begins to undo her pants. She hasn't agreed to this. Is this attempt at sex an attempted rape?

[Brad Grenz]

I think it depends on whether the female is fertile at this point. Did the gentleman slip a birth control pill into her soda during the film?

[Brian Koontz]

Is this an assault?

I'm not sure if you're being serious, but the obvious answer to your situation here is No.

Passivity is realistically a sign of uncertainty or some other essentially neutral position, and therefore is all the more reason for male aggression.

Female uncertainty means the male is in a "do or die" situation. A small change can be the difference between success and failure. Its the IDEAL time for aggression.

When the woman is going to fuck you no matter what, why be aggressive?

When the woman isn't going to fuck you no matter what, why be aggressive? You're just asking for a kick to the balls at that point.

But when you're not sure of the outcome, you've got to show the woman that you want her. That she turns you on. That you can pleasure her. That swapping saliva and other bodily fluids is high on your list of priorities.

Female passivity encourages male aggression.

[Kalle]

Damn you Koontz, I refuse to let the thread where the phrase "Kalle envy" was coined die out just because of you. Everyone else, please ignore the raving madman and go about your posting again.

[hermyhermit]

That you can pleasure her. That swapping saliva and other bodily fluids is high on your list of priorities.


I'm becoming more and more convinced as time passes that you are actually a robot of some sort. No human being talks like this, you must be some virile sex robot from the future or something...




-hh

"A woman either wants or does not want a particular man to inject her with sperm." -BK

[Brian Koontz]

I'm becoming more and more convinced as time passes that you are actually a robot of some sort. No human being talks like this, you must be some virile sex robot from the future or something...

Here is what is happening...

#1: I mix comedy and "straight-talk" to a very Post-Modern extent. This kind of style is so new in fact that its often not understood, despite the fact that other people are engaging in it (to a lesser extent as far as I've seen). Give it another 10 years and either the style will become understood or it will fade (I'll still be using it though, regardless). #1 along with my non-standard views on things are the reasons I'm often thought to not be serious. I try to avoid calling humans idiots who only see humans as serious when they speak in a Serious style.

#2: I'm a lot of things, but first and foremost a philosopher. I use inside perspectives but organize my thoughts and speak from an outside perspective.

Inside Perspective of a Man in that situation: "I'm kissing her! I want her! Her breast feels nice."

Inside Perspective of a Woman in that situation: "Is this right? Do I know this guy well enough? He's a good kisser though..."

Humorous Outside Perspective: "Look at those two swapping saliva!"

A true philosopher understands all major perspectives but for sake of simplicity selects a single perspective (the outsider one being preferred, usually) to speak from. Also, the outsider perspective is particularly nice there since its funny.

In sex a Man makes declarations and a Woman asks questions. This is partially why I've always seen sex as the Woman's responsibility... another one of those non-standard views that I'm called a loon for having...

[quatoria]

That's not why you're considered a loon, Koontza-kintay.

[Albert Woo]

I'm a lot of things, but first and foremost a philosopher.
:?: :?: :?:

[bmulligan]

I vote robot from the future.........


anyway,


In 89 percent of the academy cases, the alleged assailant was identified as another cadet.

This must be 89% of the 33 incidents reported involved another cadet? Who were the other 11% comitted by, faculty?

I'm also curious to know what the definition of 'unwanted sexual touching' is. Mark's hypothetical situation is a 100 time a day occurance in a college atmosphere and could be a major factor in the statistics. The woman could have said "NO!" and the incident never got reported and never led to rape, but shows up in these statistics to imply there is a widespread problem.

Personally, I don't find manly women with short haircuts very attractive so I can't understand why someone would want to grab on a butch girl. Seems to me that a cadet would have better luck in the bar scene in Colorado Springs.

[Doug Erickson]

I mix comedy and "straight-talk" to a very Post-Modern extent. This kind of style is so new in fact that its often not understood, despite the fact that other people are engaging in it (to a lesser extent as far as I've seen).

I eagerly await the DrCrypt response to this little announcement.

[Qenan]

I've officially switched to the "Koontz is a troll" theory.

[Lizard_King]

I'm not so sure about that. I'm not sure what would have happened 25 to 50 years ago, but I do think today's society is treating this differently than it would have been handled 25-50 years ago. I think you have two competing trends.

First, a sense of personal honor is something that is sorely lacking in today's society. I teach at a university with an honor code, and sadly, many of today's youth couldn't care less about being honorable. An honor code at a non-military academy just doesn't work very well anymore in my opinion. Now it's possible that it never worked, but I really do believe that virtues have changed and that unfortunately honor, honesty, duty, and chivalry are not valued as much as they were. I would hope that those virtues are still valued at the military academies, but perhaps not.

Well, I think you are certainly right about that, but I think your timeline is too short. I think civilization has a degrading effect on classical conceptions of honour, both because it has to (can't have duels happening left and right) and because it allows one to succeed despite lacking those traits.

Honour is certainly valued heavily (I can speak from some personal experience) in the Marine Corps. Even so, one can detect an undertone of disbelief among many, a lot of people that are just going along with it because it is what is expected and what everyone else is doing. And I don't think it is an accident that this problem has become so salient at the Air Force Academy; they have long had a reputation, rightly earned at least when my half-brother went there as of 20 years ago, of focusing more on external manifestations of discipline rather than on character and personal moral fortitude. Mind you, this is not true for many of the decent folks within the AF, but I believe it is a very real tendency at the structural level (ie they just don't prioritize it in recruiting, training, etc).


The second trend though is greater acceptance of women in what was formerly a man's world. From what I've read about the subject (which is admittedly not that much) women are now largely accepted at Annapolis and West Point. Meanwhile the Air Force Academy has goons (including instructors) running around with baseball caps with the acronyms AFABB (or something like that) which apparently stands for "Air Force Academy before there were Bitches". Boy that's enlightened. Some people are trying to make the academy as hostile as possible for women. The weird part is that I would have thought that women would have done the best and been accepted the most at the AFA. Physical strength is important in many Army positions, but I would have thought that it was much less relevant in the Air Force.

As usual, it is those whose jobs are most available to women that are the most hostile to them. Still, I would say that in an already oppressive atmosphere like at any of the service academies, the people I know who have attended the USNA at least do not consider it "largely accepting". I would say it is more like disciplined tolerance.


I'm assuming sooner or later these problems will go away. Consider for example how hard women had to fight for the right to vote. Nowadays, however, it's impossible to imagine women not being able to vote -- just thinking about it boggles the mind -- of course women should be able to vote.

I don't think anyone should vote. Ever. :)

Well, I think we get back to the honour question. I think a modern conception of honour, compatible with most of the sacrifices living in a modern society requires of it, is possible. But until it becomes necessary again, or at least becomes a distant goal again, we are reduced to adaptation. The Marine Corps copes through indoctrination; I don't think that's really a viable or desirable option for civilians, although it can't possibly be worse than the brainwashing in the opposite direction that American society has offered for a long time as public education.

Either way, I still think that the same jerks that make the academy look bad now were around forty years ago. They just took out their wrath on first year males who didn't complain, rather than on women who do (and should).

[Nathan Phoenix]

Personally, I don't find manly women with short haircuts very attractive so I can't understand why someone would want to grab on a butch girl.

I don't know about chicks with short cropped hair, but I think the bald centauri chicks from Babylon 5 are hot!

[bmulligan]

ok, yeah, they're ok.....but cadet women are pretty manly in appearance, for the most part. I've yet to see a cadet tat AFA or USMA that would be gropeworthy.