Even More Right Wing Terrorism: Minutemen Edition

[Matthew Gallant]

Shawna Forde, the executive director of the Minutemen American Defense, is one of three accused in the shooting deaths of 29-year-old Raul Flores and his daughter, 9-year-old Brisenia Flores, at their home in Arivaca, Ariz., a town 10 miles north of the Mexican border.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/407189_activist13.html

[Anti-Bunny]

http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo0OV9GLmpwZ3x sb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXM3LmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb20va W1hZ2UvNDAyNTY2N180MDB4NDAwLmpwZ3x8c2NhbGU9TDAsMjI 1LDIzOCxXaGl0ZXxjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLEwwLEFkZCwxMjcsM TIxfGxvYWQ9bWFzayxibGFuazo0OV9GX21hc2suanBnfGNvbXB vc2U9YmxhbmssbWFzayxNYXNrLDAsMHxjcD1yZXN1bHQsYmxhb mt8c2NhbGU9cmVzdWx0LDAsNDgwLFdoaXRlfGNvbXByZXNzaW9 uPTk1fA==

[Malcolm Tucker]

There were no Mexicans in Soviet Russia. Therefore, Stalin hated Mexicans. Therefore, Shawna Forde is a Communist.

Ergo, this is actually LEFT-wing terrorism!

[Midnight Son]

Disgusting scumbags. Allegedly.

[Lum]

There were no Mexicans in Soviet Russia.

In Soviet Russia, Russians go TO Mexico. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader)

[Skipper]

Ergo, this is actually LEFT-wing terrorism!

...ergo, vis a vis, concordantly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra5-H9ZBS1U)...

[Brad Grenz]

Ipso fatso!

[RSofaer]

Looking to steal drugs does not really equal terrorism.

[Anders Hallin]

So you're saying the US needs to change its Colombia policy?

[RSofaer]

The trio are alleged to have dressed as law enforcement officers and forced their way into a home about 10 miles north of the Mexican border in rural Arivaca on May 30, wounding a woman and fatally shooting her husband and their 9-year-old daughter. Their motive was financial, Dupnik said.

"The husband who was murdered has a history of being involved in narcotics and there was an anticipation that there would be a considerable amount of cash at this location as well as the possibility of drugs," Dupnik said.

Columbia policy is tangential.

[bago]

Columbia policy is tangential.

Yeah, it's that whole drug money tangent.

[Matthew Gallant]

Their motive was financial
Are you asserting that these three were looking for spending money for an upcoming vacation, RSofaer? Does somebody need to explain to you what terrorists use money for?

[Tim James]

If you smoke pot you are helping right-wing terrorists.

[SolomonGrundy]

Only if they break into my dealers house and shoot him and his kids.

[Andrew Mayer]

Are you asserting that these three were looking for spending money for an upcoming vacation, RSofaer? Does somebody need to explain to you what terrorists use money for?

Starting crime rings?

These guys are a piece of work. It's starting to look like (http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090614/NEWS01/706149860) they were basically using the minutemen organization as a front for their criminal organization, and funding the former from the latter:

Forde spent much of the past three years scouring the Arizona desert for signs of criminals.

Now, she finds herself behind bars, the focus of a double murder investigation in Arizona with potential connections to a home invasion robbery in California and other crimes in Washington.

Pima County, Ariz., detectives on Friday described Forde leading a plot to finance her Minutemen activities by robbing suspected drug traffickers. She and two others are charged with a fatal May 30 home invasion at a suspected drug trafficker's home in Arivaca, Ariz.

Raul Flores, 29, and his daughter, Brisenia, 9, were killed when a group of armed people, including a woman, forced their way into the home. The child's mother traded gunfire with the attackers. She survived but remains hospitalized with gunshot wounds.

The Arivaca robbery was meant to raise money to fuel Forde's group, investigators said.

Detectives believe there are additional suspects and are aggressively continuing their investigation.

On Saturday, Arizona detectives were pursuing tips that members of Forde's group may have staged a home invasion robbery in Shasta Lake, Calif., on Monday.

The victims, friends of Forde's mother, reported being robbed at gunpoint of nearly $12,000 by two men who showed up at the door and presented badges claiming they were U.S. Marshals.

[Robert Sharp]

So, they were embezzling too, probably? Or were they just trying to get more funds for their operations as Minutemen? Frankly, I think the 'minute' should be pronounced my newt (small). I thought vigilantes were illegal in this country, so why are these groups allowed to operate at all?

[Andrew Mayer]

So, they were embezzling too, probably? Or were they just trying to get more funds for their operations as Minutemen? Frankly, I think the 'minute' should be pronounced my newt (small). I thought vigilantes were illegal in this country, so why are these groups allowed to operate at all?

Interestingly enough, this turns out to be a fairly common trajectory for right-wing paramilitary organizations: (http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_fence_to_nowhere_08)

Today the minuteman movement is beyond mere disarray; it is in the early stages of complete decay. The arc of the Minutemen's decline and fall happens to trace almost precisely that of previous right-wing populist movements, notably the Klan of the 1920s and the militias of the 1990s. The pattern goes like this: The group is beset by financial manipulators who seem naturally drawn to them. Then, following an initial wave of popularity, the group splinters under the pressure of competing egos into smaller, more virulent entities who then unleash acts of public ugliness and violence that eventually relegate them to the fringes.

The Minutemen haven't quite reached that final stage yet, but they are well on their way. And while that may be welcome news to those who oppose the Minutemen's nativist agenda, that last stage represents some natural and equally toxic consequences.

That's from an article published last November.

[Jason McCullough]

The group is beset by financial manipulators who seem naturally drawn to them.

Now there's something I'd like to read a paper on. Why?

[Anti-Bunny]

So basically the minutemen are in their last throws anyway? That's good to hear.

[Robert Sharp]

Now there's something I'd like to read a paper on. Why?

Armchair psychology guess? Fanatics are easily manipulated.

[RyanMichael]

in their last throws

throes.

[Midnight Son]

In their last throws? Randy Johnson.... Tom Glavine.... who else?

[Tactu]

Now there's something I'd like to read a paper on. Why?

Well, I think the original quote is poorly worded. Having worked with several organizations, let's say ANY organization once they reach a certain size are best by financial manipulators. Org's that have rules, transparency, and decent leadership make it through and continue to act according to their charter. Groups that generally are not super organized, support blindly following orders, don't really have alot of transparency, and have a charter supporting hate and bigotry don't tend to fare so well...

[Dave47]

Now there's something I'd like to read a paper on. Why?
It's really remarkably simple: Immoral groups attract immoral people.

[Sarkus]

For what it's worth, the woman in this case are not part of the "Minuteman" group that is usually thought of when that name is used. She once was, but was expelled two years ago (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009338951_forde15.html). She founded her own group, also using the "Minuteman" name, which is what the OP refers to. That group is not the national group nor is it affiliated with it.

[Abilio Carvalho]

So basically the minutemen are in their last throws anyway? That's good to hear.

yeah, but the article seems to say it'll get worse before it gets better

[Anti-Bunny]

yeah, but the article seems to say it'll get worse before it gets better

Considering the source, I'm not exactly convinced.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Considering the source, I'm not exactly convinced.So, you're willing to accept the good news (minutemen dying out) but not the bad news (worse before it gets better) from the exact same source?

[Anti-Bunny]

So, you're willing to accept the good news (minutemen dying out) but not the bad news (worse before it gets better) from the exact same source?

Yep. I'm just not ready to accept terrorist hysteria, be it jihadists or nativists.

[Tim James]

Yep. I'm just not ready to accept terrorist hysteria, be it jihadists or nativists.What if Colin Powell told you the threat was real?

[bago]

Yep. I'm just not ready to accept terrorist hysteria, be it jihadists or nativists.

Another tragic example of pre-Oklahoma-City thinking.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Yep. I'm just not ready to accept terrorist hysteria, be it jihadists or nativists.What hysteria? The hysteria over foreign terrorism included, among many other things, starting a couple of wars. The "hysteria" over this stuff seems to be mostly of the form "hey, maybe we should keep an eye on these groups." That doesn't seem to be a disproportionate response. Dealing with terrorism is, after all, a law-enforcement issue.

[Tim James]

Another tragic example of pre-Oklahoma-City thinking.That's golden, well done.

The "hysteria" over this stuff seems to be mostly of the form "hey, maybe we should keep an eye on these groups."I hope you like the smell of over the top slippery slope counter-reaction!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JDXGCkfzWFA/RvvffQCgyRI/AAAAAAAAAB8/rnfpH4at2tk/s320/big%2Bbrother%2B1984%2Bpatriot%2Bact.jpg

[Hawkeye Fierce]

You know slippery-slope argumentation is actually a logical fallacy, right?

[Tim James]

You know slippery-slope argumentation is actually a logical fallacy, right?Now we don't need all this hysteria about logic here.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Now we don't need all this hysteria about logic here.I suppose I shouldn't have expected an actual serious attempt at conversation from you. You've made your contempt for this forum and everyone in it quite clear.

[Tim James]

God, Hawkeye Fierce, let's just have sex and get it over with. I can't take this tension every week.

[Lum]

RONPAULRONPAULRONPAULRONPAULRONPAUL

[Hawkeye Fierce]

So are you just going to post idiocy every time I open my mouth in P&R? I can't remember the last time you actually had a substantive discussion with anyone here. Kindly grow up or fuck off. Take your pick.

[Matthew Gallant]

Tim James' rhetorical safety is treated just as casually as the one on his AR-15.

[Anti-Bunny]

So are you just going to post idiocy every time I open my mouth in P&R?Tim, how dare you say something stupid in a thread calling a double-homicide terrorism

[Anti-Bunny]

Another tragic example of pre-Oklahoma-City thinking.
"9/11 changed everything!!!!!111"

[Tim James]

Tim James' rhetorical safety is treated just as casually as the one on his AR-15.I laughed.

And come on AB, that Oklahoma City comment was pretty clever.

[Anti-Bunny]

that Oklahoma City comment was pretty clever.

Unintentionally, maybe.

[Matthew Gallant]

calling a double-homicide terrorism
Just curious, what are the minimum body counts/property damage figures required for a politically motivated action to be considered terrorism? And if the bomb is a dud, can the person who set it even be arrested? I'm guessing no?

[bago]

Unintentionally, maybe.

Please, do go on.

[Andrew Mayer]

Anti-Bunny is like a rhetorical roller coaster. You can see where he's going, because the track is all laid out, but it's still impressive to watch him do the loop the loop.

[unbongwah]

Just curious, what are the minimum body counts/property damage figures required for a politically motivated action to be considered terrorism?
I think in this case the question is whether there was a political motivation or was this just a home robbery gone horribly awry. The accused are members of an anti-immigration group - founded by a woman deemed too "unstable" for the actual Minutemen, which ought to tell us something - but the article doesn't make it clear if it's sincere or just a front. Also, acts of terrorism usually have symbolic meaning or intent; I'm not seeing the message here, other than "Our bank accounts are empty - help us refill them with your drug money!"

Also: eff anyone who murders a 9-year-old just to keep them from being a witness.

[Matthew Gallant]

I think in this case the question is whether there was a political motivation or was this just a home robbery gone horribly awry.

Unsurprising additional information for you to help you make your decision:

Forde's brother, Merrill Metzger, has told the Arizona Daily Star that Forde had been talking recently about "starting a revolution against the United States government," and had said she planned to recruit members of the Aryan Nations as part of a plan to rob drug cartels.

[Sarkus]

I don't think there is any question that she had a political motivation in general. Unbongwah's point is that this particular act was not meant to make a political statement, even though it was ultimately motivated by politics. The robberies and such were designed to fund a presumably future political act. Legally, though, I'm not sure it matters.

[Anti-Bunny]

Just curious, what are the minimum body counts/property damage figures required for a politically motivated action to be considered terrorism? And if the bomb is a dud, can the person who set it even be arrested? I'm guessing no?

Yes. You could arrest a guy who plants a bomb that didn't go off for attempted murder. In fact, we would. America has nearly the stiffest penalties in the world for this sort of thing. That's why we have such overloaded prisons and basically known for having such a high per-capita prison population. There's no need to even mention terrorism to make sure that these people see justice and never see sunlight behind anything but bars. Which is my point.. If you want to call them terrorists, okay, fine. I can live with that, because I really have no intention of defending those individuals for basically setting out TO BE low-rent terrorists. But, it's not useful. It's merely a rhetorical device that the government/media/whoever uses to classify something for purely political motives.

But, you can't just characterize any violent person with possibly political motives as representing a larger terrorist conspiracy. Yet. the very use of the word terror, in this context, is MEANT to suggest some overarching conspiracy, rather then what these cases are: isolated incidents. Shouting out that "we are being attacked by RIGHT-WING TERRORISTS!!!" is trying to oversimplify a very complex situation and it strikes me as no different then Bush's classic: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists!" It's an attempt to demonize a class of people (Rush Limbaugh fans, Pro-lifers, whatever) rather then actually hold an insane person responsible for being an insane person or a small criminal gang for being a criminal gang.

[Tim James]

Shouting out that "we are being attacked by RIGHT-WING TERRORISTS!!!" is trying to oversimplify a very complex situation and it strikes me as no different then Bush's classic: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists!"WHOA SLOW DOWN. This is completely different. Democrats are in power now.

Threat level white.

[bago]

WHOA SLOW DOWN. This is completely different. Democrats are in power now.

Threat level white.

Nice to see a bipartisan admission that the threat level was a political tool.

[Tim James]

Nice to see a bipartisan admission that the threat level was a political tool.Am I a libertarian bogeyman or a Republican partisan?

I crave identity.

[bago]

Am I a libertarian bogeyman or a Republican partisan?

I crave identity.

Polypartisan.

[Anti-Bunny]

Nice to see a [Polypartisan] admission that the threat level was a political tool.

This assumes that Obama and the Democratic Party admit the threat level was a political tool (or the republicans, for that matter).

Last I checked, with the democrats in power, the DHS is still operational and the threat level chart is still official.

[bago]

Number of threat level orange elevations...?


Anyways, back on topic:
Forde's brother, Merrill Metzger, has told the Arizona Daily Star that Forde had been talking recently about "starting a revolution against the United States government," and had said she planned to recruit members of the Aryan Nations as part of a plan to rob drug cartels.

No correlations (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/06/more_rightwing_violence_anti-immigrant_suspects_in_1.php?ref=fpb).

[Tim James]

That was posted above. Under current law, when a mistake is made such as that one, the threat level must reset to lead gray.

[Andrew Mayer]

Absolutely not. If it makes your right wing views morally suspect *everything* means nothing, no matter how damning.

That kind of linkage only works when it's
A) Demonstrably false
B) Used against the left
B) Used within the context of a political campaign

These are actual ties between radical right wing groups we're talking about here. Clearly they mean nothing.

Now if it was a Hitler image being used in a submission to a commercial contest, or morphing your opponent into Osama Bin Laden in a political ad, well then we'd be talkin'!

[Matthew Gallant]

low-rent terrorists

All terrorists are low rent, that's why it's euphemized as "asymmetrical warfare".

the word terror, in this context, is MEANT to suggest some overarching conspiracy, rather then what these cases are: isolated incidents

Terrorism in general is a collection of isolated incidents. Tim McVeigh was not part of a large organization, only a sympathizer to a cause. Same for Roeder, von Brunn, and this Forde woman. The "cell" system of terror is borne out of necessity and out of the extremist nature of the views it espouses. These isolated incidents are rally points for cell growth. It is terrorism, and to call it just a few kooks is ignorant of how many more kooks are out there, paying attention.

[Anti-Bunny]

Terrorism in general is a collection of isolated incidents. Tim McVeigh was not part of a large organization, only a sympathizer to a cause. Same for Roeder, von Brunn, and this Forde woman. The "cell" system of terror is borne out of necessity and out of the extremist nature of the views it espouses. These isolated incidents are rally points for cell growth. It is terrorism, and to call it just a few kooks is ignorant of how many more kooks are out there, paying attention.

First of all, of course the FBI should be keeping an eye on groups like Stormfront, the Minutemen and Army of God. I'd be shocked and disappointed if they DIDN'T have undercover agents working them from the inside if they had the slightest clue that there was a connection. But openly calling these groups terrorist cells serves no purpose other then backpatting for calling bad people names... or worse: using them as proof that we need to crack down on the freedoms that they exploit to exist, so plz 2 hav Patriot Act II.

[Matthew Gallant]

But openly calling these groups terrorist cells serves no purpose other then backpatting for calling bad people names
Part of developing good intelligence is proper categorization and organization. To say that these three incidents are not part of a larger intelligence picture is foolish.

If you think these attacks have not inspired groups of like-minded individuals to organize and hatch their own plots, then fine. You can just go be wrong. Please give consideration to the request I make now to go do it somewhere where I won't read it.

[Anti-Bunny]

Part of developing good intelligence is proper categorization and organization. To say that these three incidents are not part of a larger intelligence picture is foolish.

You insisting that there is some connection between them doesn't make it so.

If you think these attacks have not inspired groups of like-minded individuals to organize and hatch their own plots, then fine.

So I guess 9/11, an attack MANY TIMES bigger then all of these incidences put together, must have inspired like-minded individuals in the US, too? I can think of seven minor, isolated incidents off the top of my head, in more then 8 years. That's.. not exactly a terror outbreak on the level of the terrorist hysteria.

Or is that different? Or are you now going to tell me they didn't attack us 'here' because we went 'over there'? Are you going to suggest we invade another country now, maybe someone who we owe a lot of debt to, before one of those right wingers blows up a Mortgage office because they hate socialism?

You can just go be wrong. Please give consideration to the request I make now to go do it somewhere where I won't read it.

Desslock circa 2004 called, he wants his bullshit fear mongering rhetoric back.

[Matthew Gallant]

So I guess 9/11, an attack MANY TIMES bigger then all of these incidences put together, must have inspired like-minded individuals in the US, too?
Do you deny that Al Qaeda got bigger after 9/11? Or have you set some weird standard that only American recruits count? There's just not that big a pool of potential muslim fundamentalist sympathizers in this country. But, if you look at the causes of these nuts of the past few weeks, well, that's a different story.

But sure, let's get rid of the armed guards at the Holocaust Museum and tell all the abortion doctors to take off their kevlar vests and to feel free to drive the same route to work every day. The wingnuts have obviously all got it out of their system now. Let's just chalk it all up to dumb luck.

[Anti-Bunny]

Do you deny that Al Qaeda got bigger after 9/11? Or have you set some weird standard that only American recruits count? There's just not that big a pool of potential muslim fundamentalist sympathizers in this country. But, if you look at the causes of these nuts of the past few weeks, well, that's a different story.Are YOU setting some weird standard that only muslim fundamentalists could harbor ill will against Bush era USA? That's kind of racist, Matt.

But sure, let's get rid of the armed guards at the Holocaust Museum and tell all the abortion doctors to take off their kevlar vests and to feel free to drive the same route to work every day. The wingnuts have obviously all got it out of their system now. Let's just chalk it all up to dumb luck.

Your living in fear of the great Right-Wing Menace is pretty dumb and, yes, I DO think it's still safe for you to drive your car with that faded Obama'08 bumper sticker without checking it every morning for carbombs.

[Matthew Gallant]

Are YOU setting some weird standard that only muslim fundamentalists could harbor ill will against Bush era USA? That's kind of racist, Matt.
I'm pretty sure everyone in Al Qaeda is a fundamentalist muslim and they never teamed up with any other group that hates jews. I would be willing to look at your intel source that disagrees.

Now, did the Al Qaeda movement grow after 9/11 or did it not grow? And why do you think that answer does not apply to these various other movements employing terrorism?

Take your time. Or just realize you are not very read up on terrorism and shut up.

[Lizard_King]

All terrorists are low rent, that's why it's euphemized as "asymmetrical warfare".
Terrorists exist at all places in the food chain. It's just that more powerful terrorists have more diversified portfolios and get to slide in under all kinds of other categories that are more palatable to their fans. The asymmetry can refer to the means that are actually employed in a given scenario, not necessarily what is possible for them to do at the max range of their power.

Terrorism in general is a collection of isolated incidents. Tim McVeigh was not part of a large organization, only a sympathizer to a cause. Same for Roeder, von Brunn, and this Forde woman. The "cell" system of terror is borne out of necessity and out of the extremist nature of the views it espouses. These isolated incidents are rally points for cell growth. It is terrorism, and to call it just a few kooks is ignorant of how many more kooks are out there, paying attention.
So what? Your point is that systems of terrorists that are not actually systems in any meaningful sense are equivalent to actual systems of terrorists? The cell metaphor used for some terrorist organizations can only get you so far in the absence of actual, evidence based assertions of coordination.

[Andrew Mayer]

So I guess 9/11, an attack MANY TIMES bigger then all of these incidences put together, must have inspired like-minded individuals in the US, too? I can think of seven minor, isolated incidents off the top of my head, in more then 8 years. That's.. not exactly a terror outbreak on the level of the terrorist hysteria.

Are you counting foiled plots?

And nice manipulation of the facts. Four of those incidents were in the last year alone. Does that mean anything?

Why are you so vested in protecting the current state of right-wing propaganda? It's certainly not helping the GOP politically.

[Anti-Bunny]

Now, did the Al Qaeda movement grow after 9/11 or did it not grow? And why do you think that answer does not apply to these various other movements employing terrorism?Yes, of course they grew. But Al Qaeda was an established network with previous operations and a ranking structure established.

You still haven't even established that Tiller's murderer had any real connection with the Holocaust Museum shooter. You can't prove that von Brunn was even right-wing, so their only similarity is that they're both insane angry white guys.

Why are you so vested in protecting the current state of right-wing propaganda? It's certainly not helping the GOP politically.
Even speech I dislike (and believe me, I hate AM Radio) is worth protecting.

[Matthew Gallant]

Coordination, shmo-ordination. Was Tim McVeigh a terrorist? Yes. He coordinated with one whole other guy.

[Matthew Gallant]

You can't prove that von Brunn was even right-wing
Let's see, he loved Sarah Palin, but he also hated Fox News (for being beholden to jews). I dunno, he could be a centrist?

Liking Sarah Palin is a pretty good indicator you're not left wing. That's all there is to it. Seriously, I don't know why, but all this is driving you to make bugfuck assertions.

[Andrew Mayer]

Are they terrorists now?
(http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/297176)

Accused ringleader Shawna Forde told her family in recent months that she had begun recruiting members of the Aryan Nations and that she planned to begin robbing drug-cartel leaders, her brother Merrill Metzger said Monday in a telephone interview from Redding, Calif.
"She was talking about starting a revolution against the United States government," he said.

Even speech I dislike (and believe me, I hate AM Radio) is worth protecting.

This isn't about speech. It's about the consequences and responsibility of speech.

[Tim James]

It's about the consequences and responsibility of speech.You sound like Glenn Beck. Literally a direct quote.

By the way, did anyone see this new information?

Forde's brother, Merrill Metzger, has told the Arizona Daily Star that Forde had been talking recently about "starting a revolution against the United States government," and had said she planned to recruit members of the Aryan Nations as part of a plan to rob drug cartels.Oh, you did. My bad.

Threat level red-neck.

[Andrew Mayer]

You sound like Glenn Beck. Literally a direct quote.

Except you didn't provide an actual, you know, quote.
So, more accurately, you think I sound like something you think he might say.
Exciting!

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised. Turns out you human's can actually say one thing when they mean the opposite, especially when you have a bit of power.

Note for instance, the constant abuse of the word "freedom" over the last eight years.

[quatoria]

Am I a libertarian bogeyman or a Republican partisan?

I crave identity.

No, you're the guy who makes it nearly impossible to have a coherent conversation after he enters a thread. I can pithy that up for you, though, if you've become as incapable of reading posts that don't contain a 'zinger' as you are of making them.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

You still haven't even established that Tiller's murderer had any real connection with the Holocaust Museum shooter.Why the fuck would he need to do that? No one is claiming those two are part of the same terrorist organization, merely that their motivations are vaguely similar.

A lone person can be a terrorist. Organization is not required. I don't know why you keep insisting that calling someone a terrorist is implying that they are part of some large terrorist enterprise.

[Tim James]

Except you didn't provide an actual, you know, quote.Yeah it's from an old catch he had in a radio ad for his radio show a year or two ago. I don't know how much AM radio you've heard but for ads of shows that are on the same network they always have a quote or two from the host. A Google search is useless; I'm literally stunned how huge he has gotten since the last time I listened to him. Seems like every blogger out there wants to write about him.

Special note to quat that I avoided the temptation to snark about the "you know" crutchphrase. :)

[Lizard_King]

Coordination, shmo-ordination. Was Tim McVeigh a terrorist? Yes. He coordinated with one whole other guy.

So by your measure is that a terror cell? Two terror cells working a coordinated counterinsurgency? It's still a criminal matter on a relatively small scale.

[foogla]

Your living in fear of the great Right-Wing Menace is pretty dumb and, yes, I DO think it's still safe for you to drive your car with that faded Obama'08 bumper sticker without checking it every morning for carbombs.

I really hope you're not going to be proven wrong on this.

[Matthew Gallant]

My point wasn't that these were terror cells of one, two, or three, it was that these "isolated incidents" are how terror cells can get started. They're touchstones for whackos. McVeigh was a touchstone for anti-government militias.

If the FBI takes Anti-Bunny's attitude and doesn't identify, infiltrate, and disrupt the groups that will form around these incidents, then what?

[Anti-Bunny]

I really hope you're not going to be proven wrong on this.

I hope so, too! I mean, until then, Matt will just have to live in fear of lone-wolf terr'ists hiding under his bed. Poor Matt. If only rational people would believe that Sean Hanity is driving the right-wingers insane and mind controlling them with subliminal coded messages!

[Cubit]

Anti-Bunny, come on. You seem to be putting a lot of words in a lot of mouths. If I am following correctly, Matthew and others are simply saying that a lot of what comes out of Fox News and conservative talk radio plays to the fears and prejudices of right-wing folk. There is a subset of these folks who believe violent action is the best way to change things (or keep them the same). Glenn Beck and others are certainly not averse to stoking that fire.

edit: Don't get me wrong, there is a subset of the far left-wing that also sees violence as a solution. But you hardly see mainstream rhetoric from left-wing commentators that echo the feelings of these people.

[Matthew Gallant]

I know you're embarrassed that you've gotten so entangled in your thesis that you've reached a point where you can't identify a supporter of Sarah Palin as right-wing, Anti-Bunny, but let's not turn this into a hyperbole contest. I do not live in fear.

[Anti-Bunny]

I know you're embarrassed that you've gotten so entangled in your thesis that you've reached a point where you can't identify a supporter of Sarah Palin as right-wing, Anti-Bunny, but let's not turn this into a hyperbole contest. I do not live in fear.

I was not aware that he had the hots for Palin.

And yet now you're saying we shouldn't have a hyperbole contest in a thread where you accuse right-wing commentators of supporting terrorism.

[Matthew Gallant]

I was not aware he had the hots for Palin.

Well then, thanks for your not even somewhat informed commentary! You are an asset to the intel analysis community.

And yet now you're saying we shouldn't have a hyperbole contest in a thread where you accuse right-wing commentators of supporting terrorism.
So this revolution that they've encouraged, it's to be conducted via open warfare? How is their side going to gain the necessary air superiority to allow their infantry to hold territory?

[Lizard_King]

My point wasn't that these were terror cells of one, two, or three, it was that these "isolated incidents" are how terror cells can get started. They're touchstones for whackos. McVeigh was a touchstone for anti-government militias.

If the FBI takes Anti-Bunny's attitude and doesn't identify, infiltrate, and disrupt the groups that will form around these incidents, then what?

Probably hell freezes over, since the FBI hardly needs a legitimate threat of violence in order to justify identifying and infiltrating "dangerous" and dangerous groups. I guess I just don't get what your point is, since I don't see A-B arguing that the FBI shouldn't take action against criminally bent activist groups. Unless, of course, you are including Fox News and Limbaugh in that category as a result of believing that there is a level of criminal culpability attached to being an irresponsible blowhard. Which there is up to a point, at least in the court of public opinion, but not much in a way that's going to meaningfully prevent these things.

[Matthew Gallant]

Is there really a problem calling von Brunn or Roeder or McVeigh a terrorist? Really? I feel like I'm back in intel basic course, and I'm arguing with someone that insists BMPs are cars with a gun on it.

[quatoria]

I know you're embarrassed that you've gotten so entangled in your thesis that you've reached a point where you can't identify a supporter of Sarah Palin as right-wing, Anti-Bunny, but let's not turn this into a hyperbole contest. I do not live in fear.

I think it's a well established fact on this forum that you're a wilting flower terrified of conflict, Matt. Anti-Bunny is clearly on to something here.

[Disconnected]

If the FBI takes Anti-Bunny's attitude and doesn't identify, infiltrate, and disrupt the groups that will form around these incidents, then what?

What are you advocating? A new & improved COINTELPRO or something?

[Matthew Gallant]

No, nothing illegal. Undercover work. Standard law enforcement using the profile of terrorist activity. Because they're terrorists.

[Tim James]

I've acknowledged before that right-wing extremism will certainly go up while the left is in power. I'm pretty young and not too familiar with this stuff, so let me bounce this brainstorm off everyone. Couldn't you say that the agitation from Fox News is similar (though admittedly less) than what we read about from certain Muslim leaders? Given that we've only had a few isolated successful cases of Islamic terrorism in the US recently, that actually makes me optimistic that we won't be significantly affected by the same kind of thing from home grown right-wing-whatevers. Of course there's the whole "fighting them over there" aspect, but I don't know how important that is. And it could be that we're fighting Islamic terrorism better holistically than we do right-wing extremism, but it's really hard to imagine we could be doing any worse.

Still worth crossing fingers behind my back even if I argue it from a tribal perspective.

[Matthew Gallant]

Again, not a whole lot of fundamentalist muslims in America. Ask a Pakistani how ineffectual they think fundamentalist agitation is.

[Tim James]

Is America really the equivalent of Pakistan when it comes to quantity and quality of right-wing extremists? That seems a bit reaching.

I plan on moving the day America becomes anything like Pakistan.

[bago]

You can't prove that von Brunn was even right-wing

Because when I think of an elderly white stormfronter who posts on freerepublic.com shooting a black man at the Holocaust Museum, I automatically think of left-wingers like Michael Moore. The guy allegedly posted under the name "Rush is Right" (http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/197874.php) on a board. At this point what would it take short of a signed and notarized document stating "I am right wing" to convince you?

[Anaxagoras]

Is America really the equivalent of Pakistan when it comes to quantity and quality of right-wing extremists? That seems a bit reaching.
It's only reaching if you're ignorant. Pakistan isn't actually all that fundamentalist. Or at least, it wasn't. They used to be a relatively secular society, with a moderate form of Islam. From what I've read, the quantity & quality of Pakistan's extremists were equivalent to ours.

But of course, you have to accept that there is a sizeable chunk of virulent right-wing extremists already in America. And you seem to be in denial about that fact, too.

[Tim James]

But of course, you have to accept that there is a sizeable chunk of virulent right-wing extremists already in America. And you seem to be in denial about that fact, too."Denial about that fact if you're ignorant." Are some of my hangers-on starting to get why it's easier and more fun to just do snark? Jeez, everyone's vagina started hurting when I suggested similar about lack of knowledge around here regarding firearms law and issues. WAH! It's the Internet folks, quit trying to be meta about me.

Back to adult discussion: Iraq was also secular and under control until the US provided a reason to stir the hive. This then goes back to my moderate assertion that perhaps how the US government approaches the situation it is more important than the instigators at Fox News. Sure, they might not actually plan to invade your home or help the Jews, but this is a PR war against ignorant people just like it was with Islamic terrorism, where despite a lot of bumbling on our part at least it hasn't hit home too badly.

[Matthew Gallant]

Tim, I was speaking to the existence of an audience for the rise in islamic fundamentalism. The reason why the existence of islamic fundamentalism hasn't resulted in more attacks in America is because there aren't a lot of people here receptive to the message. In areas where there are, like Pakistan, it has been quite a larger problem.

Likewise, Bill O'Reilly is probably not very good at stirring up anti-abortion extremists in China.

[Tim James]

Tim, I was speaking to the existence of an audience for the rise in islamic fundamentalism. The reason why the existence of islamic fundamentalism hasn't resulted in more attacks in America is because there aren't a lot of people here receptive to the message. In areas where there are, like Pakistan, it has been quite a larger problem.

Likewise, Bill O'Reilly is probably not very good at stirring up anti-abortion extremists in China.Not sure if you saw my reply yet. Even entertaining the idea that these folks can't get on a plane and aren't merely hitting US interests as proxy for hitting us at home, could the US government be as inept with right-wing extremists as it is with Islamic terrorists? There have been a few goof-ups like scare documents about people with Ron Paul stickers, but like I've mentioned elsewhere, I think there's reason for optimism that this administration will ignore left-wing agitation (that will only make things worse) just as the Bush administration did not ignore right-wing agitation about Muslims.

Thinking more about your assertion about audiences, I also wonder if culture differs enough to make that somewhat moot as well. For example, America has a lot of murders every year and a visible but relatively tiny right-wing extremist culture, but I see no reason to believe it has a culture that responds to religious/media decrees to take to the streets and commit organized terrorism with any sort of tacit approval by the rest of society like in Pakistan or Iraq. I simply don't think that's how America is even if Pakistan was "secular" at some point in time. But I suppose that's what this thread is about, trying to find the trend. *shrug* We'll see.

[unbongwah]

Couldn't you say that the agitation from Fox News is similar (though admittedly less) than what we read about from certain Muslim leaders?
Actually, I do think the right-wing blowhards in this country incite their followers through their rhetoric in much the same ways fundamentalist Muslim leaders in other countries incite theirs: strident language, overt religiosity, rigid morality, xenophobic overtones, lots of repetition.

Is Glenn Beck directly responsible for Tiller's death? No. But constantly calling the man a "mass murderer" who needed to be stopped was pouring oil on the fire.

[Lizard_King]

Is there really a problem calling von Brunn or Roeder or McVeigh a terrorist? Really? I feel like I'm back in intel basic course, and I'm arguing with someone that insists BMPs are cars with a gun on it.

Are you directing that A-B or me? I can't really tell at what point this got spun into someone allegedly saying that people who commit acts that could be considered terrorism shouldn't be called terrorists. If the shoe fits, and all that. It was the other baggage you attached to that simple, unexceptional notion that I was taking issue with.

Anyway, you seem to think "because they're terrorists" is some sort of magnificent conclusion that you've been building towards against a wall of denial, so have at it. As far as the law is concerned, these people should be prosecuted, investigated, and preempted where possible because they are criminals. Problem addressed. I suppose getting really worked up about the terror label is part of the process for you.

I'm sorry you feel like you're "back in intel basic course". That must be very traumatic for you.

[Anti-Bunny]

So this revolution that they've encouraged, it's to be conducted via open warfare? How is their side going to gain the necessary air superiority to allow their infantry to hold territory?

Sorry, I just don't see these calls for violent overthrow of the government on Fox News that you do. Just a lot of saying 'It's time to make Washington listen' and 'If they won't listen in the voting booths then we must find other ways to make our voices heard' or generic BS like that.

As revolutionary rhetoric goes, I've heard more confrontational and violent language out of poetry slams.

[Sarkus]

Hey look, more evidence that these folks were totally and only motivated by politics (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009352137_webforde17m.html)! That's why she robbed her half brother and a friend of her mothers!

Damn Rush, Hannity, and Beck! She never would have done any of this if it weren't for those rabble rousers!

:-)

[Andrew Mayer]

Hey look, more evidence that these folks were totally and only motivated by politics (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009352137_webforde17m.html)! That's why she robbed her half brother and a friend of her mothers!

Damn Rush, Hannity, and Beck! She never would have done any of this if it weren't for those rabble rousers!

:-)

I don't think you yet realize that hyperbole is part of the problem, not the solution.