TN Rep: Age Restrictions in the NBA = SLAVERY!!

[salwon]

I don't really follow pro basketball, but this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/sports/basketball/04webcohen.html?th&emc=th) seems ridiculous on the face of it.

Steve Cohen, Democrat of Tennessee, wrote that the four-year-old rule, which requires that players be 19 years old and one year removed from their high school graduation, is of “deep concern.”

“It’s a vestige of slavery,” Cohen said Wednesday in a phone interview, noting that most of the players affected by the rule are African-American. “Not like the slavery of 150 years ago, but it’s a restraint on a person’s freedoms and liberties.”


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rule there to keep high schoolers from saying, "Well Lebron James didn't go to college, so neither will I!" He goes on to say that the MLB and the NFL don't have an age restriction, but don't most players pro players there come in after four years of college? Am I missing something here?

[jellyfish]

"It's a vestige of slavery, but with multi-million dollar salaries", is what he should have said.

[Brian Seiler]

Many NFL players leave the college system early because only an idiot would keep playing football for nothing longer than absolutely required because it beats you to hell and you don't know how many years you have.

MLB is weird in that some players come in pretty young and more come in from college and even more come in from overseas where that sort of stuff works different. Since baseball is basically professional standing, though, there's less physical concern and more time for you to lounge around getting an education and all that crap.

The sad fact of the matter is that the rule is intended to protect the long-term health of potential players in the NBA. Of all the high school to the NBA stories, there really aren't that many that have ended successfully. A couple of dramatic stories aside, it's not a formula for success. Linking it to slavery is just idiotic, though.

[mdowdle]

Actually, its the NCAA that is "vestigial slavery". The NBA forces then players into the NCAA for a year's worth of vestigial slavery so as to reduce marketing costs (see http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-rose060109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns).

[Brian Seiler]

Actually, its the NCAA that is "vestigial slavery". The NBA forces then players into the NCAA for a year's worth of vestigial slavery so as to reduce marketing costs (see http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-rose060109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns).

Remind me - do these restrictions also apply to play in the NBDL?

Also, that Wetzel article clearly indicates that Dan Wetzel has never once in his life tried to parse some computer prodigy's code. That kind of IS an academic profession. The comparison to tennis is interesting, but it's worth noting that most people are retired from tennis by the time they hit 30 (or at the very least have long since ceased to matter to the game), whereas a basketball career can extend quite a length beyond that.

[Lorini]

NCAA is slavery. What has happened in the NBA is that a lot of players came into the league directly from high school and flopped. Clearly the league believes that they will get better overall talent if those players have to play somewhere else. And what this guy isn't mentioning is that players don't have to play one year of college ball to be eligible, they can play in Europe and get paid and be eligible; they can also play in the NBA's D-League and get paid and be eligible.

[Jason McCullough]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rule there to keep high schoolers from saying, "Well Lebron James didn't go to college, so neither will I!" He goes on to say that the MLB and the NFL don't have an age restriction, but don't most players pro players there come in after four years of college? Am I missing something here?

I think it's more likely the age restriction is there to enforce the mandatory 4-years-without-pay stint in the NCAA the NBA finds so profitable.

[ElGuapo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Cohen, but a slave can't just up and quit and find a new job at any time.

[Mark Asher]

NCAA is slavery. What has happened in the NBA is that a lot of players came into the league directly from high school and flopped. Clearly the league believes that they will get better overall talent if those players have to play somewhere else. And what this guy isn't mentioning is that players don't have to play one year of college ball to be eligible, they can play in Europe and get paid and be eligible; they can also play in the NBA's D-League and get paid and be eligible.

Exactly. They have options to play pro ball elsewhere.

And I agree -- it's the NBA banding together to avoid more the draft flops. For every Lebron or Kobe, there are five Kwame Browns. I don't think they are all that concerned about the health of these kids. One year doesn't make that much difference. They want to evaluate these kids after seeing them play for a year in elevated competition.

I will be interested to see what happens when we have another high-schooler that is pegged to be as good as Lebron. I think had the NBA rule been in effect when he finished high school, he could have signed a big contract with a European team, one that might have kept him out of the NBA for several years or that would have required an NBA team to fork over a lot of cash to buy out his contract.

There's this Spanish kid that is expected to go second in this year's draft, and any team will have to pay $7M to buy out his contract.

[Brian Seiler]

I think it's more likely the age restriction is there to enforce the mandatory 4-years-without-pay stint in the NCAA the NBA finds so profitable.

Or you could look one post before you and maybe sign with a team and go to their NBDL affiliate or play on one of the European teams. Or any number of other money-earning pursuits.

[Brian Seiler]

Exactly. They have options to play pro ball elsewhere.

And I agree -- it's the NBA banding together to avoid more the draft flops. For every Lebron or Kobe, there are five Kwame Browns. I don't think they are all that concerned about the health of these kids. One year doesn't make that much difference. They want to evaluate these kids after seeing them play for a year in elevated competition.

I will be interested to see what happens when we have another high-schooler that is pegged to be as good as Lebron. I think had the NBA rule been in effect when he finished high school, he could have signed a big contract with a European team, one that might have kept him out of the NBA for several years or that would have required an NBA team to fork over a lot of cash to buy out his contract.

There's this Spanish kid that is expected to go second in this year's draft, and any team will have to pay $7M to buy out his contract.

Is the restriction against CONTRACTS or PLAYERS, though? I mean, I'm sure you can work some kind of off the books handshake deal, but could you do an official thing where you sign with the, I dunno, the Rockets here and then go to their DevLeague team until you're eligible to head up?

[Hanacker]

And I agree -- it's the NBA banding together to avoid more the draft flops. For every Lebron or Kobe, there are five Kwame Browns.

Until 2004, almost every high school draftee was pretty solid. After that it did start getting kind of ridiculous, though.

[Dave Long]

I forget who it was, but someone in one of the front offices was talking about how many of the teams now will be drafting based on tools or upside rather than what they can see right there on the floor. Because of this, so many of those high school kids (and now college freshmen) were getting looked at for NBA slots because "Hey, he looks like he might be great one day... but we don't know when."

I think that's part of the reason the NBA tried to police it by making kids go to college or play overseas, etc. The thing is, you just can't stop teams from being stupid, so this fellow suggested just going back to letting them draft whoever they want and allow their own long-term stupidity of drafting that way put them all back on the right track.

[Jason McCullough]

Or you could look one post before you and maybe sign with a team and go to their NBDL affiliate or play on one of the European teams. Or any number of other money-earning pursuits.

Which don't pay anywhere near as much, and it's way harder to get into the NBA from those routes, right?

[Brian Seiler]

Which don't pay anywhere near as much, and it's way harder to get into the NBA from those routes, right?

Foreign play is actually not a bad way to make it to the NBA if the roster of pretty much every team is any indication. I follow the Spurs so I'm more exposed to it than some other markets, but still, not a horrible approach. The DevLeague exists specifically for teams to send players "to the minors" and develop them over the longer term. I've seen more than a few solid bench players come out of the system. You're probably not going to get a starting point guard (though good players have come up that way), but most NBA players aren't starters, after all. Either way, it's a way to learn and develop with teams taking lower risk on incoming talent, which, ironically, is riskier because of the guaranteed contracts you have to give to high draft picks. I would think that a kid earning at least a living wage in the development league and honing his skills would still be better off materially than a kid sent to the "NCAA slave labor" camp. My point is that there certainly exist options that people who don't want to go to college for whatever reason can follow to get into the league without needing to directly enter the draft straight out of high school.

[Mark Asher]

Which don't pay anywhere near as much, and it's way harder to get into the NBA from those routes, right?

I think there have been a number of foreign players who have come to the NBA from that route, but the developmental league seems like it's for scrubs, guys on the fringes. There have been a few nice stories about players making it -- John Starks on the Knicks comes to mind.

[Jason McCullough]

Hrm, ok. It'd be interesting to see what the pay curves look like - the NBA has a higher failure rate, but a higher payoff? Or maybe I'm just completely wrong. :)

[Tim James]

I can't decide whether it's a good or bad thing that government representatives are "deeply concerned" about the rules in a professional sports league.

Google ads reminded me that I have the game to look forward to tonight!

[Timemaster Tim]

I don't really follow basketball or know much about it. Baseball and hockey both have extensive farm systems to develop talent with only the really exceptional draft picks making the jump to the majors right away. What is different about basketball? Or is that the idea of the development league?

[Tim James]

The street is the farm system!

That's actually a good question. Maybe because no one wants to pay to see minor league basketball, perhaps? Same with football.

[Rimbo]

I think it's more likely the age restriction is there to enforce the mandatory 4-years-without-pay stint in the NCAA the NBA finds so profitable.

Except that a basketball player doesn't need to play in the NCAA to meet the requirements. Nor do they have to wait 4 years.

[Rimbo]

I can't decide whether it's a good or bad thing that government representatives are "deeply concerned" about the rules in a professional sports league.

It matters because the NBA has an effective monopoly, so it's right for the government to get involved. If we had a dozen-odd competing leagues (who were not colluding with each other), then it'd make less sense.

[Tim James]

It matters because the NBA has an effective monopoly, so it's right for the government to get involved. If we had a dozen-odd competing leagues (who were not colluding with each other), then it'd make less sense.Oh I know the standard explanation even if I disagree with it.

[Hanacker]

The thing is, you just can't stop teams from being stupid, so this fellow suggested just going back to letting them draft whoever they want and allow their own long-term stupidity of drafting that way put them all back on the right track.

It's not stupid. It's just very high risk-reward, which is probably a bad thing for the league as well. Three of the top five in the MVP voting this year came straight out of high school. You wait until kids are in college and you've already missed a lot of the top tier talent. If you're the Clippers, a Kwame Brown just keeps you where you are, but a Lebron James means you're the next Cleveland.

[Rimbo]

Oh I know the standard explanation even if I disagree with it.

To be fair, it's not exactly what ought to be a high priority for the government. But there it is.

[Sarkus]

I don't get why the NBA age restriction gets so much attention when it's only one year after high school but nobody really gets upset about the NFL's two year rule. Especially when the NBA has options (as mentioned already) and there's even a kid talking about dropping out of high school to go play in Europe for a few years. Meanwhile, the NFL has no alternatives to going to college for two years. No developmental league and nothing overseas. But somehow the "physical requirements" argument the NFL makes is accepted.

[John E. Motion]

I'm surprised a law suit hasn't been filled, as it is age discrimnation against legal adults to presue their choice of proffesion. Are there other entertainment jobs that require you to be 19+ to be able work?

If they feel that high schoolers shouldn't be employeed, managment shouldn't hire them, instead of making it a rule.

Also, I think it's rascist. It has more to do with the leagues image more than anthing (Yay D-Stern!). There, i said it.

[salwon]

I don't get why the NBA age restriction gets so much attention when it's only one year after high school but nobody really gets upset about the NFL's two year rule. Especially when the NBA has options (as mentioned already) and there's even a kid talking about dropping out of high school to go play in Europe for a few years. Meanwhile, the NFL has no alternatives to going to college for two years. No developmental league and nothing overseas. But somehow the "physical requirements" argument the NFL makes is accepted.

This was what I was trying to get at - why isn't this an issue with the NFL? The MLB at least has an extensive farm system, but how is the NBA different from the NFL using the NCAA as its farm?

Or is it just a matter of the rules not impacting the right constituent yet?

[Jakub]

I think it's because in the NBA players don't routinely get blindsided by 250lb linebackers or 300lb defensive ends. Those two years after high school can really help a guy fill out, especially if he's on steroids like every NFL player.

In the NBA, a flagrant foul is when you slap someone's wrist extra hard. The worst that can happen is that you get knocked down, in which case it helps if you're a scrawny punk.

[Rimbo]

I think it's because in the NBA players don't routinely get blindsided by 250lb linebackers or 300lb defensive ends. Those two years after high school can really help a guy fill out, especially if he's on steroids like every NFL player.

In the NBA, a flagrant foul is when you slap someone's wrist extra hard. The worst that can happen is that you get knocked down, in which case it helps if you're a scrawny punk.

I don't think the Cardinals team last year were on 'roids. That team was one of the leanest, fittest football teams I think I've ever seen. They almost looked like a college team.

[Jakub]

I don't think the Cardinals team last year were on 'roids. That team was one of the leanest, fittest football teams I think I've ever seen. They almost looked like a college team.
Everyone in the NFL, except perhaps the kicker and punter, is on roids. The linebackers and fullbacks of today are the size of linemen from 25-30 years ago. Running backs come out of college weighing 240lbs. That, even with nutrition and selecting the best you can, is not natural growth.

[Rimbo]

Everyone in the NFL, except perhaps the kicker and punter, is on roids. The linebackers and fullbacks of today are the size of linemen from 25-30 years ago. Running backs come out of college weighing 240lbs. That, even with nutrition and selecting the best you can, is not natural growth.

Dude... Where do you live, Okinawa or something?

The 3 guys I hung out with through most of college (outside of myself) weighed 210, 240 and 270 respectively; these guys weren't even football players, and only one of them (the guy at 270) was over 6' tall. So you can't tell me that a 5'10" RB @ 240 -- the same size as my brother (who didn't even work out; he was just large) when he graduated -- is on 'roids. I mean, that is trivial to attain just through a second-rate workout program.

Steroids don't make you taller, either. It's normal for a guy who's 6'2" to weigh over 200 pounds; and if he's doing an ordinary muscle/strength-building exercise program, he's going to easily hit 250 without the help of any kind of enhancements -- just lots of steaks and ribs.

[RobotPants]

Everyone in the NFL, except perhaps the kicker and punter, is on roids. The linebackers and fullbacks of today are the size of linemen from 25-30 years ago. Running backs come out of college weighing 240lbs. That, even with nutrition and selecting the best you can, is not natural growth.

You're a crazy person. Which scientific methods did you use to determine NFL players (except for kickers and punters) aren't naturally fit for pro football? You do realize that out of the billions of people on Earth, some of them are bound to be large, right? I suppose all NBA players (except for point guards) take some sort of height-enhancement drugs or something. There's no way all those guys are so abnormally tall!

[Jakub]

Dude... Where do you live, Okinawa or something?

The 3 guys I hung out with through most of college (outside of myself) weighed 210, 240 and 270 respectively; these guys weren't even football players, and only one of them (the guy at 270) was over 6' tall. So you can't tell me that a 5'10" RB @ 240 -- the same size as my brother (who didn't even work out; he was just large) when he graduated -- is on 'roids. I mean, that is trivial to attain just through a second-rate workout program.

Steroids don't make you taller, either. It's normal for a guy who's 6'2" to weigh over 200 pounds; and if he's doing an ordinary muscle/strength-building exercise program, he's going to easily hit 250 without the help of any kind of enhancements -- just lots of steaks and ribs.
Really, all steak and ribs? So can you explain to me why the '86 Giants, one of the bigger and tougher teams of their time, look like runts compared to even college teams nowadays? And don't tell me that they didn't have protein powder or gyms back then.

Bart Oates would be a tight end nowadays.

[Jakub]

You're a crazy person. Which scientific methods did you use to determine NFL players (except for kickers and punters) aren't naturally fit for pro football? You do realize that out of the billions of people on Earth, some of them are bound to be large, right? I suppose all NBA players (except for point guards) take some sort of height-enhancement drugs or something. There's no way all those guys are so abnormally tall!
Yeah, thanks to evolution, we've got a new breed of human beings who are 30% larger (per position) than they were 20 years ago, and somehow this new breed has a shorter life expectancy than even welders, oddly enough mostly due to heart conditions. I'm sure that has nothing to do with the rampant steroid use in a league whose interest is in having the most complete, invasive drug testing program that will catch only the players who don't know how the game is played.

[RobotPants]

Yeah, you're right. Every single person in the NFL (except kickers and punters) is on steroids.

[wildpokerman]

So how come there's not national(congressional) moral outrage at people who join the teamsters and drive trucks for UPS instead of going to college?

[Jason McCullough]

UPS isn't a monopoly and people don't follow UPS drivers in the sports pages?