Cross Edge (RPG for PS3)

[Robert Sharp]

My wife has finally talked me into getting a PS3 (I think so I'll shut up about it). I was looking to see what exclusives it might have, and I came across this game that should release next month. It's a KOEI RPG, turn-based I believe (or active turn-based) and apparently quite complicated, with lots of little gauges and such to track. It could be a great game for me, but sometimes I can find overly complicated games too obtuse. I really like depth in an RPG, but I don't like a bunch of vague aspects that I can't track or that don't come together well.

So has anyone spent time with this one or have an idea of how it might turn out?

[Dirt]

If you mean this:

http://nisamerica.com/games/crossedge/

It's not from Koei.

I find the dressing up the female characters part kind of disturbing.

[Robert Sharp]

Oops. Gamefly had KOEI listed as the publisher. Thanks.

I take it you disliked this part of FFX-2 also?

[Spect]

I find the dressing up the female characters part kind of disturbing.

What I find disturbing is that it's rated T. I can't link to the screen directly, but go to the website http://nisamerica.com/games/crossedge/ click on Characters, then in the middle row, click the second to last character. I'm guessing that's not in the American build, but still, the premise seems clear.

[Robert Sharp]

Why not, Spect? That's Morrigan. She's in some other video game, like most of these characters. I forget which...Disgaea maybe? Here's some cosplay, linked because it MIGHT not be safe for work (I really don't know):

http://media.photobucket.com/image/morrigan%20cosplay/samusxaran/CosplayMorrigan.jpg

[Fugitive]

Yeah, she's from Darkstalkers, which has been in NA for ages. But I don't remember her being quite *that* exposed...

[LesJarvis]

What I find disturbing is that it's rated T. I can't link to the screen directly, but go to the website http://nisamerica.com/games/crossedge/ click on Characters, then in the middle row, click the second to last character. I'm guessing that's not in the American build, but still, the premise seems clear.

Unless I failed at following your instructions (always a distinct possibility), that's Morrigan from the Darkstalkers fighting games.

[Dirt]

I never played FFX-2. I avoid anything with too much J/K/Canto-pop. I didn't know you could change their outfits too.

[CLWheeljack]

What I find disturbing is that it's rated T. I can't link to the screen directly, but go to the website http://nisamerica.com/games/crossedge/ click on Characters, then in the middle row, click the second to last character. I'm guessing that's not in the American build, but still, the premise seems clear.

Are you talking about Morrigan? That's nothing new, she's been in a ton of games.

So,yeah, CrossEdge is a crossover game between NIS's RPG franchises, (with a little Capcom thrown in, apparently because they could), so I'd guess it'll have something to do with whether you enjoyed any of the Atelier Iris, Ar Tonelico, or Mana Khemia games. If you haven't played any of those, you can pick most of them up cheap, so I'd recommend that before buying Cross Edge. They generally are pretty standard JRPG's with a heavy item-crafting focus. My wife likes the crafting, so she's played a bunch of them, but the actual battle systems aren't particularly interesting.

[Spect]

The picture I'm pointing to clearly has exposed nipplage. I'm no prude, I'm just concerned about that kind of theme in a T rated game. I have an 11 year old son, just to put things in perspective.

If, as Dirt mentions, you play 'dress up' with the cartoon girls and there's nudity then that bothers me as a father. I'd still play it though, personally.

[Dirt]

I have no problems with nipplage of adult characters in games. What appear to be little girls in bikinis are what disturbs me.

[CLWheeljack]

The picture I'm pointing to clearly has exposed nipplage. I'm no prude, I'm just concerned about that kind of theme in a T rated game. I have an 11 year old son, just to put things in perspective.

If, as Dirt mentions, you play 'dress up' with the cartoon girls and there's nudity then that bothers me as a father. I'd still play it though, personally.

I think that's shading, not nipple. They're ok with nipple topography, but Capcom never puts nipples on its female characters.

Edit: The same goes for NIS and most japanese companies, actually. They like suggestive poses and clothing, but never anything pornographic.

[Spect]

I think that's shading, not nipple. They're ok with nipple topography, but Capcom never puts nipples on its female characters.

Really? Come on, that's clearly a nipple! Like I said, personally I don't mind. I love NiS games. I just get concerned that they're pushing it here with a games that's rated T.

[aphoristic gamer]

http://ca.askmen.com/entertainment/gaming/ps2/Cross-Edge-Ps3/preview-1-1.html

Here's a link to a preview of the game.

It's sure that subtle hints of eroticism are generally more tolerated in Japanese games, but honestly I don't understand how it could be constructed as "disturbing". Games from Idea Factory, Gust or NIS might have a little bit of fan service here and there, but they feature no nudity, are humoristic and lighthearted. This is a far cry from eroges or anything like that.

[Cubit]

yep, my friends. that is a nipple.

[Wheelkick]

WHERE IS THE NIPPLE?!

[BobJustBob]

You don't think your 11 year old son has seen nipples? He's probably seen tubgirl.

[Spect]

You don't think your 11 year old son has seen nipples? He's probably seen tubgirl.

No! Go away, I refuse to believe that!

Seriously, you're probably right, but the difference is I wouldn't allow my son to access tubgirl, if he did, it was behind my back and he knew it was against what I feel is best for him. I do, however, usually allow him to play, read about, and look up T rated games.

[CLWheeljack]

Ok, as much as I enjoy staring very closely at an anime girl's breasts at work, I'm beginning to think this is a game of "get me fired for sexual harassment", so I'm going to have to stop.

Well played though, Bravo.

[LesJarvis]

Seriously, you're probably right, but the difference is I wouldn't allow my son to access tubgirl, if he did, it was behind my back and he knew it was against what I feel is best for him. I do, however, usually allow him to play, read about, and look up T rated games.

Setting aside for the moment the question of whether or not Morrigan's nipple is visible in that picture*, scantily clad women in T rated games are not a new phenomenon. Witness Ivy from last year's Soul Calibur 4 for a high-profile example (though one that is also admittedly an outlier). If you don't want your 11 year old exposed to giant breasts -- nippled or otherwise -- it may be best to avoid T games.


* It's not.

[Spect]

You guys must be looking at some very crappy monitors. Or maybe we're accessing different versions of the website. That's definitely exposed nipple.

My concern isn't over scantily clad women. You get that every day, on TV, movies, etc. It's about going to a website for a T rated game and seeing nudity. You can't "set that aside" if it's the basis of my concern. We can continue to disagree as to whether it's actually exposed or not, but my concern is based on the fact that I believe it is.

[Royal Fool]

Okay, I guess you could say that's a half-exposed nipple or something. Try blowing the image up in a image editing program and you might spot it.

[Fugitive]

Some screenshots (http://ruliweb.nate.com/data/rulinews/read.htm?page=1&num=16805&find=&ftext=&main=ps) that make the nippleness much more obvious.

ANYWAY. The split grid system reminds me of Enchanted Arms's combat somewhat, which I didn't think was that bad.

[Lynxara]

This is a far cry from eroges or anything like that.

Actually a (Japanese) selling point of Gust's Ar Tonelico games is that all the female characters are voiced by actresses who usually voice hentai, and aspects of the gameplay are based on typical h-game gameplay.

[CLWheeljack]

Ar Tonelico features female androids who need to have "crystals" "inserted" into their "installer port" to get more powerful. The port is located in various places on different girls. This can only be done with somebody they trust a lot, and they talk about how it's their first time, and how they hope you'll be gentle with them.

Then you "dive" into their "soul space" where you remove their mental blocks to power them up further. One has a mental block based on fear of abandonment, so shackles you to a bed frame and takes off all her clothes.

There's also a cat with a vacuum cleaner.

[Royal Fool]

Ar Tonelico features female androids who need to have "crystals" "inserted" into their "slot" to get more powerful. This can only be done with somebody they trust a lot, and they talk about how it's their first time, and how they hope you'll be gentle with them.

Then you "dive" into their "soul space" where you remove their mental blocks to power them up further. One has a mental block based on fear of abandonment, so shackles you to a bed frame and takes off all her clothes.

There's also a cat with a vacuum cleaner.

Japan.

[Brian Seiler]

Ar Tonelico features female androids who need to have "crystals" "inserted" into their "slot" to get more powerful. This can only be done with somebody they trust a lot, and they talk about how it's their first time, and how they hope you'll be gentle with them.

Then you "dive" into their "soul space" where you remove their mental blocks to power them up further. One has a mental block based on fear of abandonment, so shackles you to a bed frame and takes off all her clothes.

There's also a cat with a vacuum cleaner.

This sounds like a game somebody else should play for me and describe back in comical detail.

[Fugitive]

This sounds like a game somebody else should play for me and describe back in comical detail.
You're in luck! (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2870668)

[unbongwah]

Actually a (Japanese) selling point of Gust's Ar Tonelico games is that all the female characters are voiced by actresses who usually voice hentai, and aspects of the gameplay are based on typical h-game gameplay.
The cross-pollination between mainstream and hentai games & anime continues to amuse and perplex me.
There's also a cat with a vacuum cleaner.
Whereas that's just sick (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2009/03/headline-i-wish-i-hadnt-seen.html).

So, Cross Edge - what the heck is it about, anyway?

[Lynxara]

The cross-pollination between mainstream and hentai games & anime continues to amuse and perplex me.

Some of your better h-games (AAA h-games, I guess?) actually contain fairly compelling gameplay. Utawarerumono is attached to a fairly interesting strategy game and I've seen h-games piggybacked onto pretty interesting grand strategy sims or CCG systems.

Usually I just wait for the "clean port" of the better games to hit PS2 or PSP before I bother with playing them, though. Yeah, there's a Japanese market for porn games with all the porn taken out on consoles.

So, Cross Edge - what the heck is it about, anyway?

Usual crossover game silliness. Something to bear in mind is that it's not actually developed by NIS or Gust. It's being developed by Compile Heart with NIS, Gust, Idea Factory, and Capcom characters appearing to round out the crossover's roster.

It looks like there's a ton of Idea Factory characters in this and that's a turn-off. ... but Atelier Marie is also in it, and I'd love to play a game in English that featured her. Even if it's probably a pretty goofy/bad one. :/

[Dave Long]

That art of Morrigan is more risque than what's typical from Capcom, but she is a succubus... so it's in character.

[Morberis]

That is most definitely NOT a nipple.

Look at this blown up image (http://ruliwebimg.nate.com/data/news10/01m/16/ps3/ruliweb_xedgekor_ps3_35.jpg) from Fugitives link. I just looks like unfortunate shading to me.

[Fugitive]

That is most definitely NOT a nipple.

Look at this blown up image (http://ruliwebimg.nate.com/data/news10/01m/16/ps3/ruliweb_xedgekor_ps3_35.jpg) from Fugitives link. I just looks like unfortunate shading to me.
Hmmm, I'd have to agree after that (I didn't even notice the larger linked images). The fold of the clothing just makes it look like a rather nipple-like tip with darker shading at the lower res.

[mashakos]

I really like depth in an RPGugh

whenever I read this, I remember when depth in games meant "the quality of being profound or meaningful" and not "a multi-dimensional statistics graph"

I'm always hoping whoever says "depth in X game genre" is referring to the former but alas...

[BobJustBob]

ugh

whenever I read this, I remember when depth in games meant "the quality of being profound or meaningful" and not "a multi-dimensional statistics graph"

I'm always hoping whoever says "depth in X game genre" is referring to the former but alas...

This is the games forum.

[Robert Sharp]

I'm with Bob on this. Games are almost never (perhaps literally never) profound or meaningful. So it's not really something I look for in them.

[MatthewF]

You're worried over Morrigan's cleavage when Felicia's girly parts are pretty much covered in strips of medical tape?

Morrigan and Felicia have always had large breasts and cleavage in the Darkstalkers games. Especially their non-ingame character art.

[unbongwah]

Some of your better h-games (AAA h-games, I guess?) actually contain fairly compelling gameplay. Utawarerumono is attached to a fairly interesting strategy game and I've seen h-games piggybacked onto pretty interesting grand strategy sims or CCG systems.
I'm by no means an expert (honest!), but it seems like h-games have branched out from visual novels in recent years. Or maybe there have always been h-games with "serious" gameplay and I never noticed? But it's like they started out making a real game then decided, "Hey, let's sex it up!"

Just listing a couple of recent ones which I know have become TV anime, there's the aforementioned Utawarerumono, Koihime Musou, and Tears to Tiara. Of course, the list gets a lot longer if you include more traditional eroge of the high-school harem romance variety.
That art of Morrigan is more risque than what's typical from Capcom, but she is a succubus... so it's in character.
Morrigan and Felicia have always had large breasts and cleavage in the Darkstalkers games. Especially their non-ingame character art.
True, but I think Capcom has been gradually pushing the envelope with t3h s3xah since the `90s. They've gotten a bit more...exploitative, perhaps? I don't recall any naked transformation sequences in Darkstalkers.

[MatthewF]

True, but I think Capcom has been gradually pushing the envelope with t3h s3xah since the `90s. They've gotten a bit more...exploitative, perhaps? I don't recall any naked transformation sequences in Darkstalkers.

This game has naked transformation sequences? And I'm not talking the "naked" that you typically see in various Gundam anime when characters are communicating by mind (they have no nipples or genitals and while naked, are not really, er, naked-naked). I mean, real naked as in nipplage and cameltoe?

At any rate, the increase of sex appeal in games is pretty much the same in most other forms of entertainment media. Comics, books, movies, TV shows. I don't see the big deal.

[Doug Erickson]

i thought this was a ps2 game in japan -- why is coming over here for ps3?

[Bahimiron]

whenever I read this, I remember when depth in games meant "the quality of being profound or meaningful" and not "a multi-dimensional statistics graph"

You clearly never played any of the classic grognard wargames.

I don't recall any naked transformation sequences in Darkstalkers.

I know you're being a little sarcastic here, but I could have sworn that there actually was at least one naked transformation in the Saturn port of Vampire Savior.

And here's some official Capcom art of her.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Morrigan%28Darkstalkers%29.png

Not exactly restrained.

[CLWheeljack]

Felicia and Morrigan being absurdly sexualized is part of the joke, by which I mean all the Darkstalkers characters have always been a little tongue in cheek.

The being said, there's apparently a very clear distinction in Japan between naked and sexy (no nipples, airbrush style) vs. naked and pornographic (anatomically correct). Probably something to do with MacArthur or whatever.
It's really not that different from what you're allowed to show in, say a Victoria's Secret catalog vs. Playboy.

[unbongwah]

This game has naked transformation sequences?
If you follow Fugitive's link (http://ruliweb.nate.com/data/rulinews/read.htm?page=1&num=16805&find=&ftext=&main=ps), there are some screenshots of the girls' transformation sequences (as well as the obligatory onsen scene). I suppose it's "TV naked" in the sense that the naughty bits are off-screen or covered with stars or whatever. Still, like I said, it pushes the envelope of what I remember Capcom doing back in the `90s. And I realize Capcom isn't developing this game themselves, but if you look at, say, Gloria from DMC 4 and compare her to Trish from DMC 1, you can see how they kicked things up a notch. [Hell-oooo, crotch cam!]

Doesn't bother me, but it's a definite trend and I'm sure there are folks who don't care for it.

[Lynxara]

I'm by no means an expert (honest!), but it seems like h-games have branched out from visual novels in recent years.

My experience is that it depends mostly on who the developer is. Some developers go out of their way to include a lot of gameplay elements in addition to the usual dialogue branches, some just write in a more novel-esque style.

Utawarerumono's developer, Leaf, tends to put a lot of gameplay content into their titles pretty regularly and were also one of the first developers putting a lot of story and characterization into the games. The really early h-games by developers like ELF tended to be of the mindlessly fapfapfap variety. (Leaf hit the scene around 1995, incidentally.)

Leaf arguably advanced the genre to the point where a lot of up-and-coming doujinka who want to pitch themselves to the community do it in h-game form, then just remove the h-elements when it's time to make the anime and manga and console games. It worked for Tsukihime and I was a bit more depressed when they intentionally duplicated the process with Fate/Stay Night.

Just listing a couple of recent ones which I know have become TV anime, there's the aforementioned Utawarerumono, Koihime Musou, and Tears to Tiara. Of course, the list gets a lot longer if you include more traditional eroge of the high-school harem romance variety.

I think you started seeing the first h-game adaptation anime show up in the very late 90's, initially of Leaf's titles and I want to say Kanon. What's interesting is that the shows come off as harem shows, but harem shows with unusually surreal settings and well-characterized heroines. It's not until much later that you see games going out of their way to try and give the male lead any personality at all, really I don't think you get much of it until around when Comic Party came out.

[unbongwah]

Leaf arguably advanced the genre to the point where a lot of up-and-coming doujinka who want to pitch themselves to the community do it in h-game form, then just remove the h-elements when it's time to make the anime and manga and console games. It worked for Tsukihime and I was a bit more depressed when they intentionally duplicated the process with Fate/Stay Night.
I sometimes wondered if they used the h-game release as a proving grounds of sorts for their ideas: like they couldn't get the funding to make a regular game or anime, so they do the naughty version first to prove there's interest and make some bucks, then springboard off that into the mainstream.

I just find it fascinating, since there isn't usually that sort of porn / mainstream cross-pollination in the U.S. Nor, for that matter, do we get many efforts at "serious storytelling with explicit sex" in visual media. Or to paraphrase someone in the Comics forum: It's definitely porn, but it's not just porn.
It's not until much later that you see games going out of their way to try and give the male lead any personality at all, really I don't think you get much of it until around when Comic Party came out.
I always presumed the idea was to make the male protagonist as generic as possible (and in many cases literally faceless and/or voiceless) so the presumably male audience could project themselves onto him. Sorta the Gordon Freeman Effect, but with pr0n.

[Lynxara]

I just find it fascinating, since there isn't usually that sort of porn / mainstream cross-pollination in the U.S. Nor, for that matter, do we get many efforts at "serious storytelling with explicit sex" in visual media. Or to paraphrase someone in the Comics forum: It's definitely porn, but it's not just porn.

Yeah. I just chalk it up to cultural differences. Japan isn't quite the relentless perverse sex-o-rama the 4chan memes make it out to be, but the media is incredibly unshy about depicting sexuality in a strictly fantastic medium like, well, drawings in a video game.

Or to put it another way: the store I visited in Tokyo to see about buying some rare robot toys also had something like two aisles devoted to a meticulously well-organized collection of pornographic doujinshi and half an aisle for h-game art books.

(I found it interesting that they shelved yaoi and het materials side by side and this apparently bothered no one at all.)

I always presumed the idea was to make the male protagonist as generic as possible (and in many cases literally faceless and/or voiceless) so the presumably male audience could project themselves onto him.

Yeah, that was the model of the early games and it's still somewhat in effect in some harem set-ups. I think as h-games got more ambitious with storytelling, though, they realized there was only so much you could do with a protagonist who had no real personality. (Oh, if only other genres would come to this conclusion...)

Comic Party is really engrossing by virtue of some effort being put into the male characters and after that you started seeing more really distinct male leads in h-games. The Tsukihime male lead would be basically unthinkable by early 90's standards which is, I'm sure, part of why that story really resonated with people.

[mashakos]

You clearly never played any of the classic grognard war games

To tell u the truth, I don't even know what you're referring to. I'm guessing you mean pen and paper games?
Sorry but you need to explain your POV to n00bs like me!

[mashakos]

I'm with Bob on this. Games are almost never (perhaps literally never) profound or meaningful. So it's not really something I look for in them.

At least some developers try, and to a certain extent succeed for their target audience. Playing MGS at 16, I was quite moved by the Kurdish Character whose traumatic experiences from Saddam's regime made her an easy target for terrorist recruiters. It was melodramatic and rather simplistic when compared to more adult fiction, but the fact that the game was released 5 years before the Iraq war gives the tale more weight now.
Edit: that doesn't mean i don't cringe at it now, but it's great for teens who wouldn't be exposed to these issues in their pop media menu. At least Kojima tries at depth :p

[Robert Sharp]

That's a fair point. I suppose I should have said depth of system, and not depth of game. I'll try to clarify that from now and on (seriously; I'm not being snarky).

[Dave Long]

Eh... when people say games are "deep" I don't think anyone ever correlates that with a story or characters that people care about.

I think that's fine. Games, by definition, are competitions... not narratives.

People who want the other deep are just looking in the wrong place IMO.

[Lynxara]

Eh... when people say games are "deep" I don't think anyone ever correlates that with a story or characters that people care about.

You'd be surprised. Younger players especially seem to have an easier time engaging with video game stories just because they're interactive. I've had people showing up at my blog claiming they were more moved by the intolerance themes in Tales of Symphonia than anything they ever read in school on the subject.

I found this absolutely baffling until I sat back and remembered that when I was 15, I thought Xenogears was a fantastic story full of engaging characters. I ate up the cliched stick-it-to-the-man plot with the Evil Churchy McChurch villains, because I grow up in Southern Bible Belt territory and that plot let me vent a lot of fear and tension. That it was all really pretty goddamn stupid didn't matter because it served my needs at the time.

I think as we get older and we pay more attention to the market-oriented aspects of games we kind of forget how moving they can be to the less hardened audience they're really intended for. Which I suppose makes me feel kind of sad that few developers outside of the PC and indy gaming spheres really try to cater to an older audience's storytelling needs.

[unbongwah]

Comic Party is really engrossing by virtue of some effort being put into the male characters and after that you started seeing more really distinct male leads in h-games. The Tsukihime male lead would be basically unthinkable by early 90's standards which is, I'm sure, part of why that story really resonated with people.
What's interesting to me is I haven't played any of these games (are they even available in the U.S.?), but I have seen some of the anime shows - including Comic Party, Tsukihime, and Fate - and probably the nicest thing I can say about any of them is I wouldn't immediately guess at their pervy roots. Which is to say, they managed to strip out the porn and still have a halfway-decent plot left behind.

As opposed to a series like, say, Koihime Musou which...ummm...doesn't go out of its way to hide its roots.
Games, by definition, are competitions... not narratives.
Portal, Bioshock, and a whole host of other games would beg to differ, but that's a discussion for another thread.

[Lynxara]

What's interesting to me is I haven't played any of these games (are they even available in the U.S.?),

In some cases fan-translation patches have been produced for the PC versions of some of the bigger titles. Notably I think Utawarerumono for PC has been patched, though I understand the actual combat parts aren't quite as good as in the PS2 version I played.

but I have seen some of the anime shows - including Comic Party, Tsukihime, and Fate - and probably the nicest thing I can say about any of them is I wouldn't immediately guess at their pervy roots.

Something to bear in mind with some of these h-games is that, well, shockingly little of them are h. I think of the original Comic Party CG selection - which is something like a couple hundred images - only about 15 or 20 are explicit. Utawarerumono is the same, and for the PS2 port they just replaced the explicit CGs with images of the characters doing funny or plotty things. The bulk of a game, maybe 80%, will just be about establishing relationships and furthering the plot.

Of course, there are games that are nothing but non-stop porn, but they tend not to develop the sort of following you need to get an anime or manga produced. Sometimes you'll see a really hardcore h-game get a hentai anime produced but most hentai now can't support more than one or two episodes due to production costs.

[Damien Neil]

What's interesting to me is I haven't played any of these games (are they even available in the U.S.?), but I have seen some of the anime shows - including Comic Party, Tsukihime, and Fate - and probably the nicest thing I can say about any of them is I wouldn't immediately guess at their pervy roots. Which is to say, they managed to strip out the porn and still have a halfway-decent plot left behind.

For a fair number of these games, the porn bits are pretty much tacked on. There's really not a lot to strip out.

[unbongwah]

The bulk of a game, maybe 80%, will just be about establishing relationships and furthering the plot.
For a fair number of these games, the porn bits are pretty much tacked on. There's really not a lot to strip out.
Which reinforces my "regular game with porn bits sprinkled on top" theory about these h-games-turned-anime series.

[Miramon]

I just tried this game. Wow. In the realm of JRPGs, it has an enormously complex system, and obviously the complexity was deliberate.

There are multiple skill types, you can synthesize items and weapons, enhance them in two different ways, activate skills in chains, combos, chained combos, super chained combos, blah blah blah. It's quasi-turn based with action points and a timer. Sometimes in combat stuff happens and I have no idea why. Hey, look, my action points refreshed in the middle of the turn! But I did the exact same thing last battle, and they didn't then.... Since I just played for an hour or so, I'm guessing there are at least 2 or 3 major game systems I haven't even seen yet.

No hentai features either, unless you consider Morrigan's decolletage pornographic. The story is rudimentary and silly, but then you'd have to expect that with it being a crossover multistudio title.

Not sure whether I actually like the game or not yet, it may take a while to figure that out...