City of Heroes - Architect (I14) goes live!

[GlaziusFalconar]

http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/game_updates/issue_14/issue_14_overview.html

Yeah. People are makin' missions left and right. In beta they made more than the devs ever had. (per this GDC interview (http://www.massively.com/2009/04/06/gdc09-mission-architect-in-depth/))

Now, they're not all good, of course, but the system's capable of turning out some nice stuff. If you've got questions I'd be happy to answer them.

(and yeah, I made IDs 1874, 2180, and 5073)

[Raife]

If you've got questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Why aren't elephants purple?

[GlaziusFalconar]

Why aren't elephants purple?

So people can tell them apart from plums!

Jeez, gimme something harder.

[arctangent]

Is making missions more fun than playing other's missions, and if so, why, and if not, why not?

[GlaziusFalconar]

Is making missions more fun than playing other's missions, and if so, why, and if not, why not?

It's more exhausting. There are a lot of switches to set to make objectives chain and/or show up the way you'd like, and working within the space and code constraints of the architect is its own little challenge. For example, you can't currently chain a collectible objective to show up when another one completes, but you can chain a rescue, so the database I wanted to be hidden by a stealth generator turned out to be kept inside someone's head.

It feels good when you're done and see everything working right when you test it, and there's a definite feeling of accomplishment when you push it live.

But playing someone's missions, even if they're terrible, can be a great source of ideas. Or completely ragequittingly frustrating. Or hilarious. Or it can turn out excellent.

Out of necessity I'm going to spend much longer playing other people's missions than writing my own. But I don't think I'm going to mind that much.

[Creole Ned]

I've been waiting for this to go live to play around with it some more. I have one arc in mind that is not terribly original but may be amusing. I'll offer a summary of the outcome once I have something working.

[Marcin]

Can you provide an example of a player-made mission? Which part do you get to control?

I'm tempted to fire it up again, but all I can see is warehouses full of Skulls. :/

[JZigish]

Here's some notes I took at GDC from a session about this: http://doublebuffered.com/2009/03/30/gdc09-post-mortem-mission-architect-for-city-of-heroes/

I'm tempted to re-up my subscription just to check it out in person. I'm most curious about how this will do long term.

[Creole Ned]

Can you provide an example of a player-made mission? Which part do you get to control?

I'm tempted to fire it up again, but all I can see is warehouses full of Skulls. :/
The main thing that will separate player missions from official ones, apart from flavor text, is the custom critters. You can create unique villain groups and bosses and assign them power combinations rarely (or never) seen in the game. The results can be missions that look and play very differently (often far more difficult) than the stock ones. You are still limited to using the game's pre-generated maps, though there is a wide variety of layouts and some are a little more unusual than Abandoned Warehouse #423. You also get a preview of each map's layout, so you can choose one that best fits what you have in mind.

The devs seem committed to further fleshing out the editor -- I think they realize this is a feature that sets CoH apart from other western MMOs cut from the same EQ style -- and that should bode well for it.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Can you provide an example of a player-made mission? Which part do you get to control?

I'm tempted to fire it up again, but all I can see is warehouses full of Skulls. :/

Well, let's take The Bravuran Jobs (5073), an arc that uses pretty much everything the mission architect has to offer.

Spoiler alert.

Mission 1: unlockable map, Mercy Island factory. (misc outdoor map pack) Contains an Escort detail in the back of the map. (from the group I created, more on them in mission 3) Pretty standard CoV-era stuff. Get in, find the guards on the escort, take them all out, lead the escort to the exit. An ambush spawns at the front of the map, right when the escort is rescued, to make the trip back eventful. Since the escort fights on the way out it's possible they can die - hostage-type escorts can be set to "non-combat" so as not to get dinged on the way out. The escort is the only detail required for mission completion - every map needs at least one - so if she dies the mission fails. The arc still continues either way though.

Mission 2: unlockable map, small Croatoa ritual grounds. (croatoa map pack) Contains an Ally in the "front" of the map, four optional Captives scattered throughout the map, an optional Boss somewhere, and three Destructible Objects scattered around, that don't appear until you rescue the Ally. Allies work like fighting escorts, except you don't need to lead them anywhere or keep them alive - the detail is considered complete when you rescue them. Captives are your standard hostage rescue - KO the guards and tap them on the shoulder, they'll run for the exit automatically. The Boss is from a stock group, the Legacy Chain, and all I've done for him is add a custom name and some text for him to say when he gets whittled down in health. He and the Ally both drop clues for you, that persist in your Clues tab until the arc is over. Destructible Objects are just what they sound like. I picked the model and the animation for the guards around it, and threw in some text for them. If it would have made sense I could have the object say things as it was whittled down, same as the boss.

Mission 3: standard tech map, chosen from a random assortment of "medium" length ones. Contains a mandatory Boss at the back of the map, three Defendable Objects, and three Captives. The new detail here, the Defendable Object, spawns with enemies threatening it but not attacking it - yet - until you attack them. Once you defeat the enemies surrounding it, the object is considered defend it. All Defendable Objects automatically spawn in an ambush when they're first activated, as well.

The real new thing here is my custom enemy group, the Bravuran Militia. I picked primary and secondary powersets for each of them from pretty much the entire set of powers in the game, (aside from Poison and Traps) had three levels of power to pick from for each primary/secondary, and decided whether they preferred melee or ranged combat. The custom group contains three minions (Assault Rifle/Cold Domination, Fire Assault/Thermal Radiation, Broadsword/Kinetics), three lieutenants (Electric Assault/Thermal Radiation, Dual Blades/Sonic Resonance, Broadsword/Shield Defense), and two bosses (Mercenaries/Ice Manipulation, Fire Assault/Storm Summoning). There would be a Super Strength/Shield Defense minion and a Mercenaries/Cold Domination lieutenant, but I ran out of space for the arc and had to cut something out. Every bit of text you write, detail you place, and custom critter you assign eats into the 100KB allotted to the arc. Custom critters take about 7KB apiece, more if they have a lot of extras like shoulderpads and belts and capes and auras and brooches and and and. You get the full costume creator, including unlockable parts, to make your custom enemies, though you need to sink some skeeball tickets into unlocking costume parts.

Mission 4: CoV-palette Office map, randomly chosen from "Medium" length. Contains two Allies (one in the front, one in the back), a Collection object (finally!), and a Boss that spawns in the front of the map when the collection is complete. Collections are the glowing things you click on. They can be wall-mounted or floor-mounted, and chosen from a modest variety of models. Unlike most other mission details, Collections have to be there at the start of the map - they can't be linked to other objective completion and spawn in later. My Collection consists of several identical objects to find - it counts down in the quick help at the top of the arc. You can actually link a bunch of disparate objects to the same counter, as I did with the optional Captives in mission 2 and Defendable Objects in mission 3, by giving them the same "plural" text.

Mission 5: Unlockable bank map (bank maps pack). One Collection to grab, one Boss to fight, spawned by the collection. The mission's populated by the Bravuran Militia, and the Boss is Elite Boss class, Hard Energy Manipulation/Hard Energy Aura, and intended to be a tough go. This mission is timed (15 minutes - you can pick a time ranging from 5 minutes to 4 hours) and fails when time runs out - you have to grab the object and take out the boss within 15 minutes to complete the mission, which on the little short bank maps is pretty reasonable.

I pick the map. I pick the enemy group, whether it's stock in-game or one I designed, or a hybrid group that's a mix of both. I pick the objectives, roughly (front, middle, back) where they go, how numerous the guards are around them, and what kind of crazy monkey dance any and all of the above are doing. Any enemy group can guard an objective or be the boss, not just the primary enemy. Maps are limited in how many of each type of objective can fit on them - the Croatoa map, for example, doesn't have any slots for Collection items, so the journal I wanted you to find as a clue is on the optional boss. I write all the text - the interaction messages for the Collections, the boss taunts, the descriptions on my custom enemies and optionally bosses, hostages, targetable objects, etc. And of course everything the contact says, and all the clues, and the souvenir you get at the end.

I can't create my own maps. I can't direct my own cutscenes. I can't decide that one enemy in my custom group should show up twice as often as another. The maps use their own internal spawn points - I can't have, say, a giant line of my custom group doing a parade drill, they show up how the map calls for them. I can't specifically have a boss show up in response to anything, the ambushes all use rank-and-file enemies.

Had a nice enough time with what I can do, though.

[Dreamshadow]

What control do you have over level on this one? Can you make your mission available to any level, or set it to be low or high? Can you control XP/Rewards?

[Creole Ned]

The level of a mission is based on the level range of the enemy groups and is then adjusted (if need be) to your specific character's level. An Arachnos mission could be played by any character from level 1-50 since Arachnos appears in every level range. Hellions only go from 1-14 so if you take a character that is level 15 or higher into a Hellions mission, the character is auto-exemplared down to level 14.

The editor enforces overlapping ranges for mixed enemies, too, so you couldn't put a 1-14 group and a 20-35 group in the same mission, for example.

XP and other rewards are not set by the author, they are generated according to the weighting the devs have put in based on size of map, enemy group (where applicable), etc.

[GlaziusFalconar]

The level of a mission is based on the level range of the enemy groups and is then adjusted (if need be) to your specific character's level. An Arachnos mission could be played by any character from level 1-50 since Arachnos appears in every level range. Hellions only go from 1-14 so if you take a character that is level 15 or higher into a Hellions mission, the character is auto-exemplared down to level 14.

The editor enforces overlapping ranges for mixed enemies, too, so you couldn't put a 1-14 group and a 20-35 group in the same mission, for example.

XP and other rewards are not set by the author, they are generated according to the weighting the devs have put in based on size of map, enemy group (where applicable), etc.

A level 15 character doing a mission with 20-35 enemies would get cranked up to 20, too.

Taking out an enemy inside the mission architect rewards the same XP, influence, and chance at an inspiration you'd get for dropping it on the street. In all missions but those marked Developers' Choice, the other stuff you might get (salvage, recipes, enhancements) is replaced by "mission architect tickets", which can be cashed in to either unlock stuff in the mission architect or get any of the above. You can buy any enhancement, single IO recipe, or uncommon/rare salvage straight up, or roll on three different levels of IO set recipe and common salvage.

Non-Dev Choice missions award a ticket bonus at the end of the map instead of mission complete XP, based on how many tickets you collected, what other objectives you accomplished, and how far into the arc the mission is. Dev Choice missions stock up mission complete bonuses and award them at the end of the arc.

[Marcin]

Thanks for the details. Now to find my discs ... :)

[JZigish]

Unless your discs are fairly recent, you're probably better off just doing a full patch. There's some way to download just the patcher off the site, I've done it before.

[Alan Dunkin]

If you use the NCsoft Launcher you can just right-click on "City Of Heroes/Villains" and there should be an Install selection.

--- Alan

[Skorin]

Anyone who's playing this should load up Arc 2291 as soon as possible. You're part of a Hero 'big brother/big sister' style group, and you get to mentor some young heroes. It's really really good. Also, available from Villain side, too, though the story doesn't really make sense, then.

(And no, I didn't make it. Just stumbled across it while reading another forum.)

[CustodianV131]

Is there some kind of rating system in place? Would be nice if you could only play the best ones if you've only an hour or so to play.

Also how do you access them in game?

Are there missions for all levels?

How are the rewards ect? Will anyone play the normal missions?

Are there missions for groups or is it solo content?

[Skorin]

Is there some kind of rating system in place? Would be nice if you could only play the best ones if you've only an hour or so to play.

Yes, everyone can rate an arc 1-5 stars. You can filter by most popular and such, and the developers can put a "Dev's Choice" sticker on what they consider the best, and they're on top by default.

Also how do you access them in game?

A bunch of zones (most of them?) have a building called Architecture Engineering (or something similar). There are computers there that you use to activate the mission arcs. You never leave the building; a contact is generated and you click on a portal to start the mission.

Are there missions for all levels?

Each mission in an arc has a level rating (ie. 1-54, 10-24, etc), and if you're not in the range, you're either leveled up to the minimum, or leveled down to the maximum. You do not get new skills from leveling up, so a level 1 character would probably have trouble with most missions. I find at about 12, you're pretty solid for doing most missions.

How are the rewards ect? Will anyone play the normal missions?

Rewards are pretty much the same as any random mission in the game, as far as experience and influence go, but you also get 'tickets' which can be used to purchase recipes and upgrades and the like. Tickets come pretty quickly. Technically, if you keep playing good arcs, leveling through the mission architect is better than leveling normally, but so far most leveling groups are still out in the world.

Are there missions for groups or is it solo content?

That really depends on the missions. Each mission scales to your group size just like regular ones. Ones with a bunch of ArchVillains in them aren't really meant for solo play, but those are usually marked. Some missions give you allies, too, which gives you the feel of a full group, while still technically being solo.

[RobotPants]

The best part is that playing these missions completely eliminates the need for the stupid cross-zone travel you have to go through with normal mission contacts.

[GlaziusFalconar]

The best part is that playing these missions completely eliminates the need for the stupid cross-zone travel you have to go through with normal mission contacts.

Yeah, the savings on travel time especially speeds up group play, but you may occasionally need to bail out of the building in order to sell stuff off/buy enhancements.

[Fozzle]

For anyone playing this game still... how is the grind? I used to love me some COH until I got to the mid 30's, and the missions dried up, and the grind set in.. And it was on hell of a grind let me tell you! Does the game engage all they way through now days?

[GlaziusFalconar]

For anyone playing this game still... how is the grind? I used to love me some COH until I got to the mid 30's, and the missions dried up, and the grind set in.. And it was on hell of a grind let me tell you! Does the game engage all they way through now days?

They've boosted XP both at that level and for taking down lieuts/bosses relative to what it previously was.

Also, uh, 10000 arcs of content now. In addition to the extra stuff (midnight club, cimerora, RWZ) they added at the later levels.

[Mordrak]

Did they release any new tilesets/environments with the Architect?

[drake113]

Did they release any new tilesets/environments with the Architect?

Not really, unless you count the inside of the Architect building itself. However, you can unlock a lot of unique maps in Architect that you may not have seen before (Ruined Atlas Park, Council Sub Pen, etc), so there's that.

Good news: I got Dev's Choice for my first mission (Arc ID 1012)! Bad news: once you get Dev's Choice, you can no longer edit your arc, and the typos I missed in the mission are like itches I can't scratch.

[Fozzle]

Well, I re-upped last night, and I think the changes to the game are fantastic. I love the Architect stuff, but I wonder if it is too late for something like this to make a CoH resurgence happen? It's been 5 years..

[GlaziusFalconar]

Well, I re-upped last night, and I think the changes to the game are fantastic. I love the Architect stuff, but I wonder if it is too late for something like this to make a CoH resurgence happen? It's been 5 years..

CoH has been funding other games for most of its life. Now it's getting the chance to live off its own money.

This isn't going to be an amazing spike by any stretch of the imagination, but I wouldn't be surprised if things started ticking slowly upward.

[Alan Dunkin]

That's a somewhat inaccurate statement, as if suddenly the studio was some independent entity. It's a part of NCsoft, has and will always make money for NCsoft. There's no "we're in it for ourselves" schtick going on here. And as a studio, whether by contract or by ownership, they've always "lived off their own money" in the sense that: subscribers count. Kinda like any other MMOG.

Issue 14 is yet another step forward, though it's the biggest one yet and represents the culmination of a lot of work, and pushing the brand forward. The studio has an official name (Paragon Studios) and a new SKU to hit the stores (the Architect Edition box).

--- Alan

[Kalle]

I wish the Paragon team was the ones making Champions Online.

[BigWeather]

I wish the Paragon team was the ones making Champions Online.

I just want a port of CoH / CoV to the 360 and I'd be happy.

[Fozzle]

I wish the Paragon team was the ones making Champions Online.
Did everyone not see Issue 14 and think to themselves "God, CO needs this.."

[SolomonGrundy]

I wish the Paragon team was the ones making Champions Online.

Screw Champions...I just want CoH II...and on the list of features all I want 3 things:
Ability to throw objects
Batmobiles-yes I want a car or a motorcycle plz.
And more tilesets for missions.

Realtime combat would be cool too...

I really think there is a ton of features that are ignored by other MMO's.
CoH has the best traveling, be it powers, subway,personal teleporters , base teleports exc.
Best combat hands down
Best Character creator.
Best Map system
Best social screen for quick team building
Best 'help your buddy' system
Best questing system- cell phone for the win!
Content is their weakpoint- office,abandoned office,warehouse, exc. There are some unique ones which of course are the most interesting missions.

[GlaziusFalconar]

In a move that should surprise no one, players have made more missions in 5 days than the devs did in 5 years. (http://adingworld.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/architect-creators-and-players-the-first-dates/trackback/)

[Creole Ned]

Screw Champions...I just want CoH II...and on the list of features all I want 3 things:
Ability to throw objects
Batmobiles-yes I want a car or a motorcycle plz.
And more tilesets for missions.

Realtime combat would be cool too...

I really think there is a ton of features that are ignored by other MMO's.
CoH has the best traveling, be it powers, subway,personal teleporters , base teleports exc.
Best combat hands down
Best Character creator.
Best Map system
Best social screen for quick team building
Best 'help your buddy' system
Best questing system- cell phone for the win!
Content is their weakpoint- office,abandoned office,warehouse, exc. There are some unique ones which of course are the most interesting missions.

Agreed pretty much completely on this. The CoH development team has been at its weakest when doling out new content. It's certainly gotten better over the years but they seem far more interested in adding new systems (and currencies) than new things to actually *do*.

That said, it looks like the worst MA bugs have been squashed now, so I'm starting work on my first story arc. I'll provide details on my efforts here to give a glimpse into the process. I promise confusion and befuddlement on my part.

[Mordrak]

I'm really tempted to get back into this, if for nothing else, to create missions featuring some my favorite hero/villain creations, like Classy Chassis, Dread Zed, and Dr. Maleficent.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Agreed pretty much completely on this. The CoH development team has been at its weakest when doling out new content. It's certainly gotten better over the years but they seem far more interested in adding new systems (and currencies) than new things to actually *do*.

That said, it looks like the worst MA bugs have been squashed now, so I'm starting work on my first story arc. I'll provide details on my efforts here to give a glimpse into the process. I promise confusion and befuddlement on my part.

Heh, yeah, how many are they up to right now? Influence, prestige, reward merits, brainstorm ideas, mission architect tickets - and that's not counting the ad hoc economies of special holiday salvage.

I'm really tempted to get back into this, if for nothing else, to create missions featuring some my favorite hero/villain creations, like Classy Chassis, Dread Zed, and Dr. Maleficent.

You know, there's a program where if you reactivate your account you get 15 free days, and so does the guy who reinvited you. If people want to come back that way, I've still got some codes.

Also if you want to try the game out, I've got some of those too. But trial accounts can't actually create missions, only join teams that are already running them.

PM me either way.

[Balasarius]

Being a super hero and running around blasting / kicking / etc. bad guys is fun.

But the core gameplay mechanics of CoH are flawed. The game remains a grind. Everyone has tons of alts because it's nearly impossible to play one character straight to 50 without getting bored out of your skull. The loot-less system no doubt contributes to this. I don't have a solution - it's stupid for Superman to find a new sword or Super-Punch attack from a villain. But the loot-less system hurts the game overall.

Nonetheless, I still subscribe... It's fun in short (very short) bursts.

[Creole Ned]

I don't view the lack of gear as a flaw at all, it's just a different style of game. It obviously isn't going to appeal to someone who loves the typical EQ/WoW type of gear progression.

The bigger flaw to me is the lack of variety in the environments in a game that relies almost exclusively on instanced missions for its content. The XP smoothing and patrol (read: rest) XP has fairly significantly reduced the time to level a character. I don't think people create a bunch of alts because of the burden to get to 50, they do it because the character creator is stupidly entertaining on its own.

[Marcin]

because the character creator is stupidly entertaining on its own.

And the power synergies are fun to try out for ~20 levels or so.

I can't imagine what Champions is going to be like ... a constant frenzy of alt-itis?

[GlaziusFalconar]

Being a super hero and running around blasting / kicking / etc. bad guys is fun.

But the core gameplay mechanics of CoH are flawed. The game remains a grind. Everyone has tons of alts because it's nearly impossible to play one character straight to 50 without getting bored out of your skull. The loot-less system no doubt contributes to this. I don't have a solution - it's stupid for Superman to find a new sword or Super-Punch attack from a villain. But the loot-less system hurts the game overall.

Nonetheless, I still subscribe... It's fun in short (very short) bursts.

Wait, wait, wait, I thought loot was what you ground FOR.

[Mark Asher]

Actually, playing as the right kind of villain, you could have loot. You're some kind of super-genius, and you need loot to continually improve your exo-skeletal robotic suit, or you need the souls of your victims to feed some arcane force that powers you and grants you new abilities when you feed it enough souls, etc. It's the proposition of designing loot for the good guys that's difficult.

[RobotPants]

People seem to assign "grind" wildly varying definitions. I don't consider anything in CoH/V a grind simply because the actual combat is the best part of the game. If you don't enjoy that and are only into the game for the character progression aspect of it, then yeah I can see how you'd consider it a grind.

[Balasarius]

Wait, wait, wait, I thought loot was what you ground FOR.

In CoH? No, you just grind for XP. Nothing else, really. Maybe a Kill X badge if that's your cup o' tea, but mostly just XP.

I played Ascendant's AE arc last night. Was pretty fun, but only because of the writing. Gameplay, as expected, was the same old stuff. Pity about the typos and timing bugs, though. The developers should fix that stuff if they highlight the arc as dev's choice.

(I also did the Frostfire miss and found myself falling asleep I was so bored.)

[Jason Lutes]

(I also did the Frostfire miss and found myself falling asleep I was so bored.)
Argh, you had to mention Frostfire. Now I am haunted.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Being a super hero and running around blasting / kicking / etc. bad guys is fun.

But the core gameplay mechanics of CoH are flawed. The game remains a grind. Everyone has tons of alts because it's nearly impossible to play one character straight to 50 without getting bored out of your skull.


Okay, you're really going to have to explain this one, then. If being a superhero is fun, how are the mechanics flawed? Aren't the mechanics what let you be a superhero in the first place?

I don't think my giant stable of alts is a reflection of everything wearing out forever after, what, a month's solid play? Of course playing the same thing every night is going to get stale after a while. But I don't have alts because they're less fun substitutes for my main. Rather, I don't HAVE a main, I have 15 equally enjoyable options, and I'll swap them out based on what people I know are running or just on a whim. (Especially with the dual builds option they have now, I can build some characters as hardcore team support and have a good solo option.)

And on a similar tack, creating something new when a friend wants to or just when I want to, exploring a powerset I haven't played with yet, (and after 5 years there are still plenty) means the lowbie supply isn't going to dry up and blow away.

[Balasarius]

Okay, you're really going to have to explain this one, then. If being a superhero is fun, how are the mechanics flawed? Aren't the mechanics what let you be a superhero in the first place?

The mechanics are fine, I suppose. They're just highly repetitive. There's not nearly enough variety. After level 25 or so, you get very few new powers of interest. You're doing the same things, hitting the same 4-5 buttons. Over, and over, and over and in the same warehouses. It's mind-numbing after a while.

WoW is a bit repetitive as well. But by 80, every class has something like 20 powers. And while 4-5 might be your main powers, the game provides sufficiently varied tactical encounters that you're still going to want to have those other 15 buttons available on your bar to hit when you need them. And you'll probably need to use 5-10 of them every night at one point or another.

Maybe it's just me (and the wife, and our friend who plays...) but we've been playing since launch -- and we still don't have a level 50 character. The grind just gets to be too much.

[SolomonGrundy]

The mechanics are fine, I suppose. They're just highly repetitive. There's not nearly enough variety. After level 25 or so, you get very few new powers of interest. You're doing the same things, hitting the same 4-5 buttons. Over, and over, and over and in the same warehouses. It's mind-numbing after a while.

WoW is a bit repetitive as well. But by 80, every class has something like 20 powers. And while 4-5 might be your main powers, the game provides sufficiently varied tactical encounters that you're still going to want to have those other 15 buttons available on your bar to hit when you need them. And you'll probably need to use 5-10 of them every night at one point or another.

Maybe it's just me (and the wife, and our friend who plays...) but we've been playing since launch -- and we still don't have a level 50 character. The grind just gets to be too much.

It's not the attack chain- all MMO's have an attack chain of some sort...it is the warehouse.
With AE now, I've played more varied missions in one night than most of the 'professional' arcs. Why? People don't care about canon, being serious, or any of that integrity stuff. They just build fun weird stuff. I played a anti- smoking ad mission last night. It was a bit long, but it was funny, and fun to a point. No developer would EVER even think of doing something like that...even as a one off.

[KieronGillen]

I haven't got an active CoH account right now, so haven't been able to try it out but 2000AD writer and general mentalist Al-Ewing mailed me with his finished arc this morning.

It's this number: 67280

I presume it will be funny, as it's by Al.

KG

[GlaziusFalconar]

The mechanics are fine, I suppose. They're just highly repetitive. There's not nearly enough variety. After level 25 or so, you get very few new powers of interest. You're doing the same things, hitting the same 4-5 buttons. Over, and over, and over and in the same warehouses. It's mind-numbing after a while.

WoW is a bit repetitive as well. But by 80, every class has something like 20 powers. And while 4-5 might be your main powers, the game provides sufficiently varied tactical encounters that you're still going to want to have those other 15 buttons available on your bar to hit when you need them. And you'll probably need to use 5-10 of them every night at one point or another.

Maybe it's just me (and the wife, and our friend who plays...) but we've been playing since launch -- and we still don't have a level 50 character. The grind just gets to be too much.

...and by level 40 in CoH you have 20 powers. At level 50, 24. In addition to anything you've earned from a day job/mission/bought at an in-game store/crafted/earned with vet rewards/got booster packs for. (and then there are those little simple powers called "inspirations" that drop, and taste, like rainbow candy, and which nobody I've ever played with ever uses unless they're desperate, and I wonder why) And out of those 24 I can sometimes get through a single mission without using... 5? Maybe an armor toggle that's not relevant, or a rez power that nobody's died for, or a panic-button nuke that I didn't need to push. (my rad/sonic is worst for this: vengeance, fallout, mutation, em pulse, dreadful wail, all so lonely when nobody is being silly)

That is the reason that everybody now has 3 power trays plus as many detachable ones as they would like.

I'm not calling you a liar, here, but your reasons don't make sense to me.

[Hugin]

The mechanics are fine, I suppose. They're just highly repetitive. There's not nearly enough variety. After level 25 or so, you get very few new powers of interest. You're doing the same things, hitting the same 4-5 buttons. Over, and over, and over and in the same warehouses. It's mind-numbing after a while.

WoW is a bit repetitive as well. But by 80, every class has something like 20 powers. And while 4-5 might be your main powers, the game provides sufficiently varied tactical encounters that you're still going to want to have those other 15 buttons available on your bar to hit when you need them. And you'll probably need to use 5-10 of them every night at one point or another.

Maybe it's just me (and the wife, and our friend who plays...) but we've been playing since launch -- and we still don't have a level 50 character. The grind just gets to be too much.

A level 50 COH character has 24 powers, not counting the 3 inherent powers, and not counting temp powers you will have accumulated from missions arcs and holiday specials. My old Controller used damn near every one of them, in every battle. Attacks, buffs, auras, holds. It was like playing a piano. Maybe your playstyle was more to blame than the game mechanics.

[Damien Neil]

Have you played any other MMOs, Hugin? Because I'm having a really hard time seeing how someone can argue that CoH's combat is as interesting as that in WoW/LOTRO/WAR.

[Hugin]

Have you played any other MMOs, Hugin?

Many. Aside from CoH, only EVE and Planetside ever held my attention for more than a couple months.

Because I'm having a really hard time seeing how someone can argue that CoH's combat is as interesting as that in WoW/LOTRO/WAR.

*shrug* To each their own. I will never, ever understand what people think is so great about WoW. Lotro is at least pretty. WAR just makes me want WAR40K.

[Mordrak]

I think WoW's solo combat is much better, because short of particularly difficult encounters (which they've mostly done away with pre TBC), solo fights are much shorter than CoH. CoH shines in group play, but it's really painful sitting there using one to two attacks while waiting on the cool downs.

So WoW does three things to make its fights seem more fun:

A) It doesn't take as long to kill a basic enemy of your level alone.
B) It has auto-attacks which animate your character between cool downs.
C) Casting times have their own animations.

CoH is great in groups because there's enough activity and stuff to pay attention to in that you can use the time between attacks to orient yourself.

In short, something's always going on in groups for CoH and WoW, but WoW does a better job of making it seem like something's going on in solo play.

That's just my take.

[Damien Neil]

Back when I played WoW, combat with my hunter was just vastly more complex and interesting than anything I did in CoH. Same goes for the burglar I'm playing in Monday night LOTRO.

But as you say, to each their own.

[Mordrak]

Back when I played WoW, combat with my hunter was just vastly more complex and interesting than anything I did in CoH. Same goes for the burglar I'm playing in Monday night LOTRO.

But as you say, to each their own.

I think that really depends on your class. My Loremaster is pretty fiddly, especially if I pull a one/two adds. One on one, there's really no chance of me losing, but I still push a lot of buttons (mezzing, debuff, spells). My captain on the other hand is much less fiddly and tends to run out of power, so combat is much slower and not as interesting unless I'm in a group. Wow does a pretty good job making all the classes active, except for paladin back in the day, but I figure they've probably fixed that by now.

[Hugin]

I think WoW's solo combat is much better, because short of particularly difficult encounters (which they've mostly done away with pre TBC), solo fights are much shorter than CoH. CoH shines in group play, but it's really painful sitting there using one to two attacks while waiting on the cool downs.

So WoW does three things to make it's fights seem more fun:

A) It doesn't take as long to kill a basic enemy of your level alone.
B) It has auto-attacks which animate your character between cool downs.
C) Casting times have their own animations.

CoH is great in groups because there's enough activity and stuff to pay attention to in that you can use the time between attacks to orient yourself.

In short, something's always going on in groups for CoH and WoW, but WoW does a better job of making it seem like something's going on in solo play.

That's just my take.

A. In COH, non-boss solo enemies are relatively rare. Instead, for flavor reasons, you're most often taking on groups of enemies, and the balancing reflects this. Most classes can one-shot an even level minion, if it came to that. I like being able to wade into a group of 6-15 baddies and take them out more than a single wandering...spider or whatever, even if it takes a little longer.

B. I don't understand what you mean with point B. You know you can set any non-toggle power in CoH to autofire? So set it on some fast recycling attack and you're all set during the cooldown period of your heavier powers.

C. Again, I don't know what you're talking about. All attcks or summons or power activations or whatever in CoH have associated animations.

[Mordrak]

A. In COH, non-boss solo enemies are relatively rare. Instead, for flavor reasons, you're most often taking on groups of enemies, and the balancing reflects this. Most classes can one-shot an even level minion, if it came to that. I like being able to wade into a group of 6-15 baddies and take them out more than a single wandering...spider or whatever, even if it takes a little longer.


Well, I can tell you CoH doesn't start out that way and many builds can't do that even moderately far into the game. You're fighting 1-3 enemies at a snails pace in solo play. No I know there's difficulty modifiers to increase the number of enemies in a mission, but that's not immediately apparent for new players nor is it easy, nor are they going to have optimal builds.


B. I don't understand what you mean with point B. You know you can set any non-toggle power in CoH to autofire? So set it on some fast recycling attack and you're all set during the cooldown period of your heavier powers.


It's called white-damage in wow. But it's basically the back and forth fighting while waiting for your abilities to cool down. You don't do anything. You walk in, click attack, and your guy goes through a series of attack and dodge animations accordingly. Though for casters you're not going to see much of that, rather you're going to be looking at channeling animations, which is still a bit better than watching an idle animation. However, maybe I'm misremembering and CoH does have a basic free auto-attack when you aren't doing anything. But WoW's solution isn't the only one, you could lower cooldowns or make most attacks instant and turn it into a semi-action game.


C. Again, I don't know what you're talking about. All attcks or summons or power activations or whatever in CoH have associated animations.

I'm aware and many are pretty cool, but there's also plenty of time I spend in combat (even in groups) where I'm just sitting there watching the idle animation and waiting for endurance to come back.

It's been awhile since I've played, but those are my recollections. I'm not saying CoH is a bad game though. I really enjoyed it and will be coming back soon. :)

[Damien Neil]

In short, something's always going on in groups for CoH and WoW, but WoW does a better job of making it seem like something's going on in solo play.

It's not just that there's something going on. It's that there WoW (and its imitators) have more interaction between things than CoH does.

Compare:
CoH Fire Control powerset (http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Control)
LOTRO Burglar skills (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Burglar)

A CoH character will, of course, have multiple powersets, so the fact that there are more skills on the LOTRO page isn't relevant. What I'm interested in is what those skills do--quality, not quantity.

The CoH skills can be easily summarized with a set of checkboxes:

Location: Ranged/PBAoE/targeted/etc.
Effect: Damage, DoT, immobilize, hold, debuff, etc.

None of the skills interact with any other skills.

The LOTRO skills, on the other hand, have interactions.

For example, there are four "trick" skills. (My low/mid-level Monday night burglar has three of these already.) Each of these adds a debuff to an enemy. They're mutually-exclusive, however, so you need to pick one. There are also three skills--a self-heal, a stun, and a random effect--which can only be used on an enemy with an active trick, and which remove the trick.

There's a skill that can only be used after a critical hit, and another skill that can only be used after that one. And a skill that guarantees that your next hit will be a critical.

The various skills flow together. None of this is rocket science, and you do tend to end up using the same skills in the same sequence, but it isn't completely trivial. You need to watch out for critical hits, so you can use the proper follow-on skills. You need to decide between mutually-exclusive debuffs. The burglar is a melee nuker, roughly equivalent to a CoH scapper, but there are a few crowd control skills in the mix.

So, yeah, I just don't see how CoH combat compares in terms of complexity.

[Mordrak]

It's not just that there's something going on. It's that there WoW (and its imitators) have more interaction between things than CoH does.

Compare:
CoH Fire Control powerset (http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Control)
LOTRO Burglar skills (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Burglar)

A CoH character will, of course, have multiple powersets, so the fact that there are more skills on the LOTRO page isn't relevant. What I'm interested in is what those skills do--quality, not quantity.

The CoH skills can be easily summarized with a set of checkboxes:

Location: Ranged/PBAoE/targeted/etc.
Effect: Damage, DoT, immobilize, hold, debuff, etc.

None of the skills interact with any other skills.

The LOTRO skills, on the other hand, have interactions.

For example, there are four "trick" skills. (My low/mid-level Monday night burglar has three of these already.) Each of these adds a debuff to an enemy. They're mutually-exclusive, however, so you need to pick one. There are also three skills--a self-heal, a stun, and a random effect--which can only be used on an enemy with an active trick, and which remove the trick.

There's a skill that can only be used after a critical hit, and another skill that can only be used after that one. And a skill that guarantees that your next hit will be a critical.

The various skills flow together. None of this is rocket science, and you do tend to end up using the same skills in the same sequence, but it isn't completely trivial. You need to watch out for critical hits, so you can use the proper follow-on skills. You need to decide between mutually-exclusive debuffs. The burglar is a melee nuker, roughly equivalent to a CoH scapper, but there are a few crowd control skills in the mix.

So, yeah, I just don't see how CoH combat compares in terms of complexity.

Well in WoW, there's fewer of those conditional skills (though that's slowly changed over time and some classes have more than others). Most skills can be characterized as buff, ranged damage, melee damage, dot, AOE, hold, and stun (at least skills you use). The game just gives you many more of them and some utility powers along the way. My Loremaster certainly fits that paradigm pretty well. The burglar does sound interesting though.

[Damien Neil]

Well in WoW, there's fewer of those conditional skills (though that's slowly changed over time and some classes have more than others). Most skills can be characterized as buff, ranged damage, melee damage, dot, AOE, hold, and stun (at least skills you use). The game just gives you many more of them and some utility powers along the way. My Loremaster certainly fits that paradigm pretty well. The burglar does sound interesting though.

My WoW hunter was very different from the burglar I'm playing in LOTRO--it definitely didn't have as many conditional skills. There was still a lot of interaction and complexity, however, especially revolving around the pet. A hunter in single-player is often playing all four traditional group roles at once: Tank, nuker, healer, and mezzer.

The WoW/LOTRO skills are classifiable into categories, as you say, but most of them have a little extra something to make them interesting. The CoH powers are mostly entirely defined by a spreadsheet.

[Mehrunes]

So, yeah, I just don't see how CoH combat compares in terms of complexity.

Well I guess if you compare probably the most straightforward control set to the mutant of LOTRO it would easy to make that argument. Of course anyone could show the exact opposite by comparing, say, Illusion/Kinetics to a Champion. So... yeah.

Now if someone could point me to the class that can use a wormhole to teleport a mass of enemies into the sky such that even if the extradimensial transit doesn't disorient them they're still out of the fight until they hit the ground and manage to pick themselves up. (What I mean is that an ability's complexity involves more than just the number of prerequisites in it's description, there can be some really unusual concerns such as 'How high is that ceiling?').

[Hugin]

Well, I can tell you CoH doesn't start out that way and many builds can't do that even moderately far into the game.

Apparently I played a different COH for three years.


You're fighting 1-3 enemies at a snails pace in solo play. No I know there's difficulty modifiers to increase the number of enemies in a mission, but that's not immediately apparent for new players nor is it easy, nor are they going to have optimal builds.

Look, obviously without sitting together at the same computer there's no way we can figure out what you mean by "snail's pace" I know that one of my frustrations with very low level CoH play is that in the nearest area of the starting zone, working solo, you can clear out "neighborhoods" faster than the game spawns them, forcing you to wander a bit to get more XP. I don't know how that translates to spawns going down slowly. I also don't know what you mean by 1-3 enemies. Go to Perez Park. Go to the Hollows. Go to the Red zones of Atlas Park or Galaxy City. All reachable within half an hour of play.

[Creole Ned]

Why does every CoH thread turn into this?

[Hugin]

It's not just that there's something going on. It's that there WoW (and its imitators) have more interaction between things than CoH does.

Compare:
CoH Fire Control powerset (http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Control)
LOTRO Burglar skills (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Burglar)

A CoH character will, of course, have multiple powersets, so the fact that there are more skills on the LOTRO page isn't relevant. What I'm interested in is what those skills do--quality, not quantity.

The CoH skills can be easily summarized with a set of checkboxes:

Location: Ranged/PBAoE/targeted/etc.
Effect: Damage, DoT, immobilize, hold, debuff, etc.

None of the skills interact with any other skills.

The LOTRO skills, on the other hand, have interactions.

For example, there are four "trick" skills. (My low/mid-level Monday night burglar has three of these already.) Each of these adds a debuff to an enemy. They're mutually-exclusive, however, so you need to pick one. There are also three skills--a self-heal, a stun, and a random effect--which can only be used on an enemy with an active trick, and which remove the trick.

There's a skill that can only be used after a critical hit, and another skill that can only be used after that one. And a skill that guarantees that your next hit will be a critical.

The various skills flow together. None of this is rocket science, and you do tend to end up using the same skills in the same sequence, but it isn't completely trivial. You need to watch out for critical hits, so you can use the proper follow-on skills. You need to decide between mutually-exclusive debuffs. The burglar is a melee nuker, roughly equivalent to a CoH scapper, but there are a few crowd control skills in the mix.

So, yeah, I just don't see how CoH combat compares in terms of complexity.

In my Lotro experience, such chains just meant you memorized the chain triggers in whatever order was necessary then turned your brain back off again. Meanwhile, powers do interact in CoH, as a Controller I had to communicate a lot with my allies in order to not have the power layering turn into a disaster.

[Drastic]

Why does every CoH thread turn into this?
It's required by the EULA.

[roBurky]

A lot of what makes City of X combat better than WoW's and WAR's, and presumably other MMOs is down to the animation.

When you activate a melee power in WoW, your character will twirl on the spot or something, without visibly connecting with your opponent, and a sound will play with no relation to your weapon's movements. Use a spell, some kind of particle will flash on your character, and one on the target. You can tell something has happened, but there's no impression of connection, no spectacle.

Activate a melee power in City of Heroes, and up to tens of enemies can go flying across the room. Activate a special power, and you might be the centre of an awesome explosion of blue light that annihilates everything on screen. They're spectacular.

And that leads to the other way in which City of X combat is more enjoyable. My powers are going to be spectacular in a completely different way to someone playing a different class, or someone with different powersets, or even someone with the exact same powersets I have, but has chosen different powers from within that. Each fight is an opportunity to show off.

City of X is still the only MMORPG that really does this. When it was the only one I had played, I thought this was the entire point of the genre. I was very confused playing WoW, where everyone has the same powers and looks the same.

Edit: I'm very tempted to resub for a month to try out this mission architect business. The story of The Unending Sickness' origin must be told!

[Mordrak]

Why does every CoH thread turn into this?

Sorry. :(

[BigWeather]

While the first few levels of CoH are taking on 1 to 3 baddies snatching a purse or breaking into a garage, or what-not the later levels get a lot more fun... Wading into a group of 15 or so (about 10 commons, 3 lts., and 2 bosses) and annihilating them is a joy.

Besides, since when is 1 to 3 baddies at level one bad? Try doing 3 mobs in WoW at level one... =) Heck, even at higher levels, try doing 3 mobs. That's one thing I hated about WoW -- it didn't scale and I never felt much more powerful like I do in CoH. At L74 (the highest I got) I was still praying that I could keep the fight to one or two opponents.

Disclosure: WoW L62 Rogue, L74 Warlock; CoH L43 Claws / Reflex Scrapper; don't play either game now.

(And yes, I'm aware that with a 'lock I could do more than one or two near-level opponents but the risk / reward just wasn't worth it. As for the Rogue, well... Vanish was my friend!)

[MikeJ]

The discussion of the slowness of defeating minions in CoH does seem pretty odd to me as I recall them falling pretty quickly. Maybe at the intro levels, but even then they seemed fall apart in a few seconds. Waiting for powers to recharge or running out of end is definitely a introductory problem that might have soured people on the combat.

As for complexity, there are certainly some very straightforward classes in CoH. Overall though, I think it's very class-dependent. My mind/emp controller was always busy as a bee, and I think skill could make a big difference in some of those sets. The characters I played in LotRO and WAR didn't feel any more complex.

The visceral feel of the combat in CoH was pretty nice. I often had the sensation in LotRO or WAR that I was sort of waving my sword at the bad guys. Somehow in CoH it usually seemed as though there was more of a connection. The Stone Melee attacks, for instance, certainly feel as though the target should be quickly reduced to a thin red paste.

As others have mentioned probably a million times, for me it really was the repetitiveness of the missions and the dramatic slowdown in progress once you hit level 30 that were the big problems.

[RobotPants]

That's the thing with CoH for me. The combat feels more like you're hitting solid objects as opposed to just standing near the bad guy and pushing buttons to make numbers come out. Yeah, I know that's what you're actually doing, but it just does a better job of making it seem more real than it is, as opposed to WoW, WAR, LOTRO, etc. Age of Conan is probably the only other MMO I've played that does a better job making combat seem more visceral than it actually is.

A lot of it has to do with the animation, but the sound also plays a huge part. WoW got much better with the Blood Elf and Draenei at making the combat sounds sync up better with the animation, but the original races are a mixed bag in regards to the melee. CoH and AoC both do an excellent job in this department, having the sounds match up damn near as perfectly as a straight singleplayer action game. The punches and hits from Super Strength, Dark Melee, and Stone Melee in particular are great. The sound effects in and of themselves aren't stellar, but they do manage to create a good sense of impact that's missing from a lot of MMOs.

[GlaziusFalconar]

That's the thing with CoH for me. The combat feels more like you're hitting solid objects as opposed to just standing near the bad guy and pushing buttons to make numbers come out. Yeah, I know that's what you're actually doing, but it just does a better job of making it seem more real than it is, as opposed to WoW, WAR, LOTRO, etc. Age of Conan is probably the only other MMO I've played that does a better job making combat seem more visceral than it actually is.

A lot of it has to do with the animation, but the sound also plays a huge part. WoW got much better with the Blood Elf and Draenei at making the combat sounds sync up better with the animation, but the original races are a mixed bag in regards to the melee. CoH and AoC both do an excellent job in this department, having the sounds match up damn near as perfectly as a straight singleplayer action game. The punches and hits from Super Strength, Dark Melee, and Stone Melee in particular are great. The sound effects in and of themselves aren't stellar, but they do manage to create a good sense of impact that's missing from a lot of MMOs.

If I recall correctly, some of the super strength and stone melee powers make your screen shake if you're close enough to the point of impact. And a lot more powers than that kick up the shell casings and other detritus that's lying around. (I remember dropping an earthquake on the bottom floor of an atrium and finding bullet casings two floors up.)

If you can believe it, my PROBLEM with other games' combat systems is that there IS an autoattack. It puts a very short timer on deciding what to do next, since while the autoattack animation is playing you can't start up something else. I like taking the time, even if it's just a few seconds, to scan through the enemies and pick out the Avalanche Shaman that just dropped a slow toggle on the melee guys. Then he gets a handful of ashes to the face, sharpish. That's one thing all controllers can be good at, picking priority targets out of the scrum and neutralizing them.

(or, y'know, instead of batting at the monkey biting my ankles I can shoot a net at the alien overlord so he can't get close enough to smack me across the room.)

[Fozzle]

I have to say I don't understand the argument that white damage makes for better game play either. You aren't actually doing anything, just watching at that point. and while I agree that CoH's abilities don't have as much interactivity between powers, you still have a lot of building blocks to use for some fun combat.

If you just stand there, wow style in City of Heroes, then you are going to get the results some people have stated here. When you start moving around, thinning out the packs, getting some control in there, then you start to see the real beauty of CoH combat. As a defender, I can toe up against a group of 1-3 guys, and kill them without dying. But, if I hover, and drop an aoe slow, and a dissorient, and a pet, and float off, the remaining bad guys scatter, either for cover, or to try and get to high ground, and now you are in combat against 10 guys, across a whole city block, trying to keep yourself alive, keep enough control going, and still manage to kill them off. This is actually even better in a team, when you can be fighting a small army of thugs. This is not only very doable, but also very fun.

I originally only got to level 34 in the first issue or so before quitting to the grind. The XP grid has been evened out a bit I'm happy to say. They leveled out the XP table I think, changed debt to be halved while doing missions, and added a heaping helping of new content. I managed to get a couple levels this week with relative ease. I lvoe the Rest XP idea of buffing based on Day jobs btw.. nice little twist.

[Mordrak]

Creole Ned, what server are you on so I can try your missions? Or are missions available cross-server?

[MikeJ]

Creole Ned, what server are you on so I can try your missions? Or are missions available cross-server?

They are cross-server.

[Mordrak]

They are cross-server.

Oh, cool. Thanks. :)

[Creole Ned]

My missions are also still unpublished. Once I get the first one ready, I'll post my little "How I made this crap" summary of the process.

[Mordrak]

Thanks! I doubt they crap. Not nearly as bad as what I'll make. I'm playing with the mission editor now. Is there a way to create and share characters rather than just arcs? It'd be cool if you could make a character, click share, and then people could browse the shared ones when making their own arcs.

[Jason Lutes]

The other little detail that helps CoX's combat feel more visceral is that characters can't walk through each other. It seems like a little thing, but when you're in a crowded hallway trying to fight the bad guys, they're actually obstructing your movement -- so knocking them down, up, and/or away is that much more satisfying. All of the audiovisual cues already mentioned contribute, of course, but I think the fact that each character has a physical footprint is key.

[Drastic]

Thanks! I doubt they crap. Not nearly as bad as what I'll make. I'm playing with the mission editor now. Is there a way to create and share characters rather than just arcs? It'd be cool if you could make a character, click share, and then people could browse the shared ones when making their own arcs.
Only missions are shareable, at least directly in-game. One of the neat bits about the Architect stuff is that it saves everything in text files, including costumes, so people inclined to coordinate will probably be doing things like emailing things to one another, anywhere from passing control of arcs back and forth, to simpler things like Friend B asking to use one of Friend A's character in something they're making. So A could just save their character's costume and mail that file, and B can load it up for use.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Creole Ned, what server are you on so I can try your missions? Or are missions available cross-server?

If you're looking for stuff to try the IDs of my missions are in the first post. Unless you've done 'em already and I missed it.

[Mordrak]

Ahh, that's cool I'll check them out. The one problem with moving between many MMOs is I forget how to play them, what to focus on, etc. I'm still reorienting myself. I started a Sorority Panty Raid mission someone made using the architect that was pretty funny. It was a tasks force though so I got my butt kicked solo.

If there's a way they can integrate the architect missions into the world, that'd be awesome, rather than holo-deck system. I figure you'd have to build the MMO from the ground up to support that. Traveling between missions is a nice way to break up the missions and create a sense of pacing as well as a sense of place.

[Balasarius]

So is it just Virtue, or does every group just run AE farming missions now? I'm not talking the cool missions with a plot, I'm talking zone in - kill 10 groups of bosses, and zone out. Repeat.

And really, what's so different about Police Scanner missions? Aren't they basically the same as AE farming miss?

And aren't story arcs from contacts basically the same as Police Scanner missions?

... sigh. Cancelling.

[Creole Ned]

Farming has always been a part of the game.

Canceling your account barely a week after the new issue is out because some players are going gung-ho over farming certain Architect missions seems like a knee-jerk reaction.

Also, there are differences between all the mission types you listed but hey, you're canceling, so no need to inform now!

[Mordrak]

I actually find that I want to read the architect missions because I'm choosing them based on descriptions. So I read the description and think, this sounds like fun, and then play it. Since I chose it, I want to read it. When I'm just grinding missions in a group, there's less incentive because everyone's just rushing off to the next objective. I don't have much room to talk, since that's basically what I did in LotRO (sorry guys!).

So far, I've only won the easiest of missions solo, but it's still pretty fun checking out others creativity. However, it may just be the new feature shine that's making it fun right now.

[Alex Hopkinson]

I haven't got an active CoH account right now, so haven't been able to try it out but 2000AD writer and general mentalist Al-Ewing mailed me with his finished arc this morning.

It's this number: 67280

I presume it will be funny, as it's by Al.

KG

I played this arc through solo with my mid-level Peacebringer and it's pretty good. Perfectly soloable, which is handy, and only slightly let down by a mission in a boat that contains melee-only enemies - easy money for my squiddy form.

[GlaziusFalconar]

So is it just Virtue, or does every group just run AE farming missions now? I'm not talking the cool missions with a plot, I'm talking zone in - kill 10 groups of bosses, and zone out. Repeat.

Apparently Freedom is even worse.

Everybody on the official boards is whining about this. "A BLOO BLOO BLOO farming A BLOO BLOO BLOO my immersion A BLOO BLOO BLOO!"

Because there's this fantasy that a majority or even a sizable minority of the people playing the game actually care about the story.

Yeah, that'd be nice.

If you want to go out and find stories you can't trust yourself to the will of the populace, you have to, I don't know, join a global channel on your server that gets people to run story-heavy stuff. And even then you're trusting yourself to your team leader.

Some people are tagging their missions "story focus". If you want to find something more than "kill 10 blobs on a cargo ship" then searching for "story focus" or "story" in the MA interface is probably a better way to find it than looking at random.

[SolomonGrundy]

And now we see the slippery slope of UCC....

FYI, the LF Farm team is not too annoying on guardian, but if I were the Paragonians I would make AE a separate global channel area. It is annoying the LF Farm team in Atals and Talos, your two major hubs.

[Fozzle]

I don't see how UCC is such a slippery slope. The game has more people logging in and playing I would imagine then it has had in months. People like me are attracted to come back and check out not only that, but all the other changes I've missed in previous issues. Just because there's a few people whining about not getting their Task Force on, doesn't put them in the majority. If people are in AE farming their brains out, its because that is what they want to do. More power to them.

As far as the quality of content goes, this UCC is no different from any other game, and I would think the developers realized that the first day they began to plan it out. You get a ton of crap out there, yes, but you also get a small amount of real gems. You get players having some buy in to the development of their hobby as well. You have sharing networks established to talk about a new aspect of the game and friends sharing their levels with each other. and you have buzz being generated about your title.

Where's the slope exactly?

[Mark Asher]

I think UCC is a great idea. Hopefully the rating system for the missions will let players find the good ones and not bother with the trash.

I remember playing an MMO created with the NWN toolset, and I was surprised at how MMOish it felt. There’s a lot of potential out there for UCC. I don’t know if it can pry me away from a well-supported MMO with good developer-made content, though.

[Fozzle]

Do we have a running list of mission numbers people have made? I went to try a few from page 1 at lunch but they were all listed "Very Long" =) I actually dragged a few WoW/EQ buddies back into CoH so I will give those a try this evening.

P.S. having a super group thats 5 years old is apparently Prestige in the bank. We logged back in to enough Prestige to build a pretty nice secret base. Does anyone know if Base PvP is fairly common? Done at all these days? etc?

[RobotPants]

Did they ever even implement base PvP?

[Fozzle]

Maybe not then? Heck I don't know, there seems to be things you can purchase that gear your base towards that.. is it an unfinished feature?

[RobotPants]

I haven't been subscribed for a few months, so unless it's been added recently and I just didn't hear about it, I'm pretty sure it's not yet done. In fact, I don't even remember the last time the devs even mentioned anything about it. Those base turrets and various other parts n' pieces put in for the base raiding they initially had planned have been in since they introduced super group bases.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Do we have a running list of mission numbers people have made? I went to try a few from page 1 at lunch but they were all listed "Very Long" =) I actually dragged a few WoW/EQ buddies back into CoH so I will give those a try this evening.

P.S. having a super group thats 5 years old is apparently Prestige in the bank. We logged back in to enough Prestige to build a pretty nice secret base. Does anyone know if Base PvP is fairly common? Done at all these days? etc?

Mine are in the first post, but they're all very long. (or were you talking about page 1 of thread vs. page 1 of mission search?)

I think base PvP has been turned off entirely? Not sure. But in exchange you can overlap and stack stuff in your base to your heart's content.

[Mordrak]

Mine are in the first post, but they're all very long. (or were you talking about page 1 of thread vs. page 1 of mission search?)


Yeah, everyone has this big long epic arch they want to tell and even if they don't they want to maximize the amount of missions they create. What they should do is give you fifteen missions to use how you please. So, I could write maybe one 5 mission arc, two 3 mission arcs, and 4 single mission arcs if I want, or 15 single mission arcs, etc. That way, it'd foster more variety.

[Mordrak]

Ok, they need to fix Architect.


I spent today basically farming the same missions over and over again. Leveling is super fast that way. On one level I don't mind the increase in speed, burning through levels is addictive and fun when you can get 20+ levels in a day's work. This can't be sustainable though and anyone not wanting to AE farm is basically left out in the cold. I only saw one broadcast in an entire day that was specifically looking to not AE farm.

Not only that, but the Architect undermines the economy they were trying to build. The AE farming is nice because it gives you a ton of tickets (money) and you max it out pretty much every mission. That means after every mission you can always upgrade to the best store bought enhancements. This is very nice, but since recipes and such don't drop (you gamble with your tickets for them), it means you have far fewer inventions pieces and have really no incentive to fiddle with the invention system as you level.

So anyway, I think the best thing would be to enforce some basic rules.

1) Arcs with Strike Force missions have to be at least 3 missions long.
2) Arcs with Strike Force missions have to include Archvillians or stronger (if there are) bosses and potentially more than one mob type or villain group.
3) Arcs with Strike Forces' first mission can not be a strike force.
4) There's a limited number of times you can attempt each Arc each day. Attempts I'd count as quiting the story or successfully completing the Arc.
5) Bring back the incentive to travel by have mission portals be the same portals in the game world.

So let's say your particular mission is in a warehouse, if it exists within the zone (ie that's where it's set), then an appropriate door in the world is randomly chosen for the players to run to. If the warehouse is not in a CoX lore location already, use transports such as the back of trucks, helicopters. The same would work for outdoor locations, etc. They'd have to develop a consistent ruleset and UI features (plus whatever backend work is necessary) too, but it'd add some buffer time between missions.

6) There should be different quality tickets to create incentives for variety and difficulty in the missions. Of course this has to be balanced so players want a variety of tickets.

7) Potentially allow enemies to drop salvage and recipes in architect missions. I could see this being a bad idea since people would then create missions for farming whatever faction you were interested in. That said it feels like there should be a better way to integrate the two economies than just gambling for recipes and buying rare salvage with tickets.

So basically, I think that'd help limit some of the problems I see with the new user created content system. They could do that, or cut XP/rewards, but I think if you force players to implement a bit of variety in their content they may add some creativity along the way as well.

I know there's tons of missions with stories and many are pretty cool, but the goal is to get the players to play them rather than the same 4 city blocks full of Rikti.

That said, Yarrrr 2000 is now level 35. Heh. Tomorrow I plan on getting my first hero past level 25.

[Hammet]

Damn. I've never played any other MMO than my last stint with CoH. I reupped and made a pretty fun Blaster guy, got him to level 8. I haven't bothered with the Architect missions yet but I guess I should try that out. I'm not even sure what "farming" means, I guess it's to do with getting lots of xp?

I'll check out some missions later tonight, any recommendations for a single Blaster that absolutely, positively suck at playing? Magic origin, Ice/Psychic powers.

[Alex Hopkinson]

You should find the Al Ewing arc linked upthread to be pretty soloable. There's a Hall Of Fame arc, which should appear on the first screen of default results with a golden star (rather than a golden dev icon) that has a bunch of allies and certainly has a very soloable first mission (not played any further yet). They both made me smile, which is always good.

[GlaziusFalconar]

I know there's tons of missions with stories and many are pretty cool, but the goal is to get the players to play them rather than the same 4 city blocks full of Rikti.


Well, yeah.

And before, there were tons of missions with stories and many were pretty cool, with the goal being to get the players to play them rather than resetting the same map full of Freakshow. There were just as many broadcasts about "farm team lfm" but they were largely confined to Grandville and Peregrine Island.

People will always go for perceived convenience. Even now, I'd bet that at least half the people running "farm maps" are not actually getting faster xp than elsewhere, because of badly built maps, poor team composition, or both.

About the only thing that can be done is reporting a mission for being deliberately constructed to be farmable, though nobody's going to want to narc on their own cash cow.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Damn. I've never played any other MMO than my last stint with CoH. I reupped and made a pretty fun Blaster guy, got him to level 8. I haven't bothered with the Architect missions yet but I guess I should try that out. I'm not even sure what "farming" means, I guess it's to do with getting lots of xp?

I'll check out some missions later tonight, any recommendations for a single Blaster that absolutely, positively suck at playing? Magic origin, Ice/Psychic powers.

Well, I've tried "Bricked Electronics" (2180) with a lot of lowbies and they've come out okay, though I don't absolutely suck so I can't guarantee your experience.

"Dream Paper" (1874) should be good in your teens.

Some people on the boards have also suggested tagging low-level friendly missions with LBMA, "LowBie Mission Arc". You could search for that.

[Lum]

I messed around with this some over the weekend as well.

The constant spam for farming missions didn't bother me over much (I'm on Virtue as well). I just ignored it.

The "Developer's Choice" missions were very well done. There was a pretty steep quality drop below that, though. I tried one five-star mission that was replete with horrible spelling, worse writing, and "midjet ninjas". I assume Sturgeon's Law is completely in force.

I'd really like to see third-party mission review sites.

[gurugeorge]

I notice, with amusement, that quite a few people are doing what I've just done - re-subbing to CoX to get a superhero jag because they're so stoked about CO :)

Having just done that the other day, I have to admit I was slightly depressed about the future of CoX (even though I can hardly play the game today after 3 years of burn-out, I still wish it well): it seems to me that, at the moment, the MA is being used mostly to create farm missions and sillly vanity missions.

I had a bad feeling about it and questioned the US CoX general board. Quite a few people said things that did allay my fears somewhat: basically, it's still new and shiney, so it's understandable that lots of farms will be made, and the fad will pass; and the devs are unlikely to let the situation go on as it presently is (in fact players are waiting for the nerf bat to fall right now). Also, there are (people assured me) many very good player-made missions, the system just needs a better filter to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

The thing that most cheered me up though, was the point that the MA is actually an in-house tool now, and it will enable the devs themselves to quickly and cheaply create tons of new and more varied missions to become part of the main game structure. That bodes well for the future of CoX.

[GlaziusFalconar]

I messed around with this some over the weekend as well.

The constant spam for farming missions didn't bother me over much (I'm on Virtue as well). I just ignored it.

The "Developer's Choice" missions were very well done. There was a pretty steep quality drop below that, though. I tried one five-star mission that was replete with horrible spelling, worse writing, and "midjet ninjas". I assume Sturgeon's Law is completely in force.

I'd really like to see third-party mission review sites.

I think there's a sticky on the boards with third-party sites. One of the ones I hit up now and again is www.cohmissionreview.com.

Also, try my stuff! It's not five-starred, but nothing with over 50 votes stays there for long.

[MikeJ]

The thing that most cheered me up though, was the point that the MA is actually an in-house tool now, and it will enable the devs themselves to quickly and cheaply create tons of new and more varied missions to become part of the main game structure. That bodes well for the future of CoX.

I haven't played around with the mission architect, but my impression is that even the dev choice missions are really straining against the limitations of the MA. I mean the writing can be very good, and the plot interesting, but the lack of control of the mechanics of the mission can really make things feel pretty clunky.

I guess a finer level of control over the mission isn't compatible with how missions are set up in the base code, and allowing that control will also increase exploit opportunities, but it still feels clunky.

[Mordrak]

Well, yeah.

And before, there were tons of missions with stories and many were pretty cool, with the goal being to get the players to play them rather than resetting the same map full of Freakshow. There were just as many broadcasts about "farm team lfm" but they were largely confined to Grandville and Peregrine Island.


I don't know what it was like in beta for MA, but my goal would be to find actual groups for the non-farm missions. CoX is much better in a group.


People will always go for perceived convenience.


Uhh, yeah. I'm not contesting that, but rather suggesting they build an architect ruleset that makes it convenient to make and play missions with internal variety. =P


Even now, I'd bet that at least half the people running "farm maps" are not actually getting faster xp than elsewhere, because of badly built maps, poor team composition, or both.


That was pretty rare last night. I ran with 5-6 groups and only one I would say fell into the latter category and it was still faster than a regular mission. That group dissolved pretty quickly and people found spots in better balanced groups. The rest ran missions 2-4 times roughly. Just starting out you can gain roughly 15 levels in one run. (after that it slows down to 3-4, then 2-3).



I messed around with this some over the weekend as well.

The constant spam for farming missions didn't bother me over much (I'm on Virtue as well). I just ignored it.


Well, I don't mind the spam, but did you find groups for doing story missions? I'm just concerned with finding other players for the missions, because CoX is just really really boring solo. Soloing is much better at 35 and fully slotted with SOs, but it's still boring.

[GlaziusFalconar]

I don't know what it was like in beta for MA, but my goal would be to find actual groups for the non-farm missions. CoX is much better in a group.

Check your server's section on the official forums. Someone has probably set up a global channel for MA-related issues on the server, including running story content.

Were you here for global channels, or would you like an introduction to how to join one?

[GlaziusFalconar]

I haven't played around with the mission architect, but my impression is that even the dev choice missions are really straining against the limitations of the MA. I mean the writing can be very good, and the plot interesting, but the lack of control of the mechanics of the mission can really make things feel pretty clunky.

I guess a finer level of control over the mission isn't compatible with how missions are set up in the base code, and allowing that control will also increase exploit opportunities, but it still feels clunky.

There are currently a lot of in-game missions that "break the rules" as laid out in the mission architect. Even if something's declared a dev choice, that doesn't mean it uses the dev tools.

[Lum]

Also, try my stuff! It's not five-starred, but nothing with over 50 votes stays there for long.

I have a simple yet completely silly idea for one I'm going to try to do tonight. I'll post a link to it when/if I get it done.

[MrAnderson]

I spent time today getting city of heroes reinstalled and patched up, ready for when this week's reactivation event starts. My plan is to run through as many of the user missions from friends and forum compatriots as I can.

Since this thread already has some listed I suggest people post the ID (or whatever we need to access it) along with a brief description of any missions you recommend or have created.

[Mordrak]

I haven't played around with the mission architect, but my impression is that even the dev choice missions are really straining against the limitations of the MA. I mean the writing can be very good, and the plot interesting, but the lack of control of the mechanics of the mission can really make things feel pretty clunky.

I guess a finer level of control over the mission isn't compatible with how missions are set up in the base code, and allowing that control will also increase exploit opportunities, but it still feels clunky.

For the custom missions I've tried so far, much of the creativity and fun comes from the premise, custom characters, and custom enemy groups. Once you've seen one CoX mission you've seen a good portion of them. I know some groups have power gimicks that change the gameplay a smidgen, but I haven't seen anything yet that combines powers in interesting ways. But, the character I was using was really low level and had a hard time with many missions so I've tried quite a few arcs but not completed them.

[GlaziusFalconar]

I spent time today getting city of heroes reinstalled and patched up, ready for when this week's reactivation event starts. My plan is to run through as many of the user missions from friends and forum compatriots as I can.

Since this thread already has some listed I suggest people post the ID (or whatever we need to access it) along with a brief description of any missions you recommend or have created.

Globals to search for:

Twoflower
KelpPlankton
jjac
Muu
GlaziusF

[Lum]

My global is Lum - doubt I'll have my mission ready to go tonight though.

[drake113]

My global is Ascendant. I've got 3 arcs up, and one (Saul Rubenstien's Discount Task Force, Arc 1012) is a Dev Choice.

Just sayin'.

[Mordrak]

Well, if a bunch of people are coming back for the return time, I'm down for checking out missions we get a group going. I've got toons on villains and heroes side. My global is zomdi.

I had an idea to do a farm mission based on the bailout financial mess called Bailout Beat'em Up! Each of the mobs could be someone you could blame for the crisis and crappy clean up (flippers, loan servicers, left and right politicians, hedge fund managers, aig, etc). I even though about bring in Alex Jones as a character and have to link to missions featuring such classic custom enemy groups as Them, Banking Elites, Shadow Government, etc.

But I'm lazy and too busy leveling. I'll get around to it. Heh.

[Damien Neil]

My global is Ascendant. I've got 3 arcs up, and one (Saul Rubenstien's Discount Task Force, Arc 1012) is a Dev Choice.

I saw you in one of the train stations, once upon a time, talking to your agent on the phone. Probably my most memorable CoH moment. Now I half want to resub to check out your arcs. :>

[gurugeorge]

My global is Ascendant. I've got 3 arcs up, and one (Saul Rubenstien's Discount Task Force, Arc 1012) is a Dev Choice.

Just sayin'.

Hey I just played that, nice one - made me chuckle :)

[malkav11]

Am actually tempted to use my free reactivation this time around (since I have advance notice, high speed internet, and potentially a week to take advantage of it). But I have no desire to farm and that does make me a little concerned. Last time I played at all seriously it seemed pretty easy to just grab people to go do missions with, story arcs or no. Has the Mission Architect changed that for the worse?

Also, (and this may betray how long it's been since I played) - did it ever become feasible to do Task Forces in PUGs? I absolutely could not back when I did play, and it was one of the things that led me to quit - I wanted to see that content and I didn't have a supergroup or any idea of where I could find a good one.

[MikeJ]

My global is Ascendant. I've got 3 arcs up, and one (Saul Rubenstien's Discount Task Force, Arc 1012) is a Dev Choice.


I need to check out those other arcs, because the discount task force was really great.

[quatoria]

There's a skill that can only be used after a critical hit, and another skill that can only be used after that one. And a skill that guarantees that your next hit will be a critical.

The various skills flow together. None of this is rocket science, and you do tend to end up using the same skills in the same sequence, but it isn't completely trivial. You need to watch out for critical hits, so you can use the proper follow-on skills. You need to decide between mutually-exclusive debuffs. The burglar is a melee nuker, roughly equivalent to a CoH scapper, but there are a few crowd control skills in the mix.

So, yeah, I just don't see how CoH combat compares in terms of complexity.

You should try a twin blades scrapper, brute, or stalker. They, in fact, have multiple attack chains created from attacks flowing into one another, opening up subsequent attacks, and causing various buffs, debuffs, or damage from the executing thereof.

However, your initial point is flawed, in that it looks at only one side of the equation, specifically, attacking, and ignores the balancing of different types and amounts of defenses against various attacks. It also sounds like you're not familiar with CoV, which abandoned the straightforward 'scrapper / tank / nuker / controller / healer' paradigm for a variety of hybrid classes with much more complex capabilities and synergies.

As far as anecdotes go, all I can say is tha tI've had more fun playing in a full group of villains taking on max-difficulty level combat at +3 levels than I've ever had with anything other than raids in WoW.

[quatoria]

Globals to search for:

Twoflower
KelpPlankton
jjac
Muu
GlaziusF

Add quatoria to that list as well. I'm playing again, mainly villainside, checking out the new content and waiting for my 60 month vet reward. (Note - no missions up yet, but soon, hopefully - just tossing my name in for people looking for qt3 coh vets to group with.)

[Marcin]

@Slouch resubbed for a month as well, although I'm on Infinity.

Stupid question, but how do I actually get an architected mission of my own? I got pulled into one (2 levels in one mission at level 28, what's up with that?) and figured at least THAT much out, but all I can see now are Ticket vendors and Architect Instructors. Is there a contact in the building that I'm just not seeing?

I really enjoyed seeing all the new costumes and customizable weapons for powersets. The auto-magic "You got a new contact!" popup is great too for leading you into new places. Now the usual problem - I have to figure out which one of my many many characters I want to play. I'm thinking one of my Brutes (the elec/elec is fun) or the mercenary Mastermind with trapses. On the other hand, the robots are *really* fun so I might reroll .... oh choices.

[Lorini]

I'm thinking of playing during the free week, but it's been 5 years since I played. Any hints?

[MikeJ]

Stupid question, but how do I actually get an architected mission of my own? I got pulled into one (2 levels in one mission at level 28, what's up with that?) and figured at least THAT much out, but all I can see now are Ticket vendors and Architect Instructors. Is there a contact in the building that I'm just not seeing?


You click on the computers near the big teleport thing to bring up a list of story arcs. Once you select a mission, the robots standing on the holopads change to your contact for that arc. You click on the contact to start a mission and the 'door' is the big telepad/holopad/whatever thing behind the contact.

I think you can also create story arcs on those computers, but there is a room that has power suppression so you aren't annoyed by powers going off non-stop while working on your story.

You can also click on one of the guys on the ground floor to basically get a tour of how everything works.

[gurugeorge]

Some ppl are comparing LOTRO and CoX - that's interesting to me because I'm currenly head over heels in love with my LM in LOTRO, and I do appreciate the point about complexity in LOTRO.

But having just re-subbed to CoX (again), I have to say that there's something really, really special about CoX combat, I dunno, something that Cryptic got really right that no other devs have gotten. It has a kind of momentum and trance-inducing quality that's totally addictive. It's also really visceral and somehow "solid" feeling in a way I haven't experienced in any other implementation of point-and-click combat in any other MMO.

Put it this way, in every other MMO I've tried, most of the time, in combat, I'm somewhat "outside" the action, it's a bit more like playing Chess or something, a bit more cerebral - i'm nudging an avatar around and carefully considering what skills to use, timing, etc.

Whereas, in CoX I am that superhero: I am blasting fire, kicking the shit out of people, buffing my teammates with really powerful buffs, totally locking down the battlefield, whatever. To me, CoX combat is nonpareil in terms of immersion.

I admit that until one gets to about the mid-30s or so, one won't get the full effect of it, and the first 10 levels or so CoX combat can seem a bit clunky compared to others, but once you pick up a head of steam when you get to the mid-30s, the full effect of a team of 8 heroes intermeshing, or a team of 8 villains steamrollering, really has to be experienced to be believed.

And the speed of it (particularly with a kineticist on the team) also has to be experienced to be believed.

It's kind of like poetry, each bit of combat that goes off smoothly is like an immersive mini-poem of thundering action teamwork.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I can't get that kind of consistent deep trance state from any other MMO combat. Other MMO combats are certainly hugely enjoyable, but as I say, more of a cerebral, detached experience most of the time.

[davidf]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I can't get that kind of consistent deep trance state from any other MMO combat. Other MMO combats are certainly hugely enjoyable, but as I say, more of a cerebral, detached experience most of the time.


This reminds me of my time with my Fire/Fire blaster. With the right buffs I was pouring through groups of baddies like butter. Cycling through my AOE attacks and then my boss killing attacks brought me into a zone...and I could literally clear a outdoor map in under a half hour. It required back up, with a talented healer, but there was nothing else like it, being in that mass carnage zone.


The same with tanking. I missed the days of being able to hold the agro of a entire map and managing your own survival with a tank! I defeintly got into the zone and good very good at it.

I still get enjoyment of being able to power past the argo limit and then pulling my two group agro into a third group of baddies! It can turn into a blood bath with the wrong team, but I feel immense satisfaction when I can push the limits of whats supposed to be possible :) I enjoy when people comment on my strategies, 'i thought the game wouldnt let you do that anymore'!

[SolomonGrundy]

All my fire/fire needs is a tank. Or a scrapper. My SG only has one 'healer' and it is mine, and the last I looked he hasn't been logged in in almost a year.
fire is easy once you understand you NEVER SHOOT FIRST. You have to let someone- anyone else grab aggro or you are toast.
Yeah me and my SG mate who plays a mean Ice tank, we tear through missions like butter.We only run into issues with Arch-villians, but if we bring along a de-buffer then we can take them out too without too much hassle.
For the most fun in the game- make an Nrg/Nrg blaster and slot the knockback. It is annoying to team mates if you don't know how to control you KB into walls and such- but sooo much fun. a lvl 50 with a 4 slot KB hitting someone in Atlas, you can punt them over city hall.

[Mordrak]

All my fire/fire needs is a tank. Or a scrapper. My SG only has one 'healer' and it is mine, and the last I looked he hasn't been logged in in almost a year.
fire is easy once you understand you NEVER SHOOT FIRST. You have to let someone- anyone else grab aggro or you are toast.
Yeah me and my SG mate who plays a mean Ice tank, we tear through missions like butter.We only run into issues with Arch-villians, but if we bring along a de-buffer then we can take them out too without too much hassle.
For the most fun in the game- make an Nrg/Nrg blaster and slot the knockback. It is annoying to team mates if you don't know how to control you KB into walls and such- but sooo much fun. a lvl 50 with a 4 slot KB hitting someone in Atlas, you can punt them over city hall.

It caps at three slots now doesn't it?

[Marcin]

So I finally joined one of the "lfm AE farm" groups just because I wanted to find out what the heck they were.

My MM went from level 12 to 25 in 3 missions.

Something's broken, but I'm too busy dinging my horde of lesser played alts to figure out what.

[Mordrak]

Yeah, for most of my characters I'm finding around level 30 is a pretty decent place to stop and move on to my next alt. However, I may use the opportunity to get one villain and one hero to level 50.

[JZigish]

This has been bothering me for a bit.

What the hell does AE stand for? Area Effect? that's normally aoe...

[jaygittings]

I believe it is the initials of the "company" in game that runs the user created missions...something like Architect Entertainment (or Enterprises).

Quick question for those in the know. Normally, when you have set your challenge level to Heroic, Bosses are all spawned in as lieutenants. This doesn't seem to be the case though with user missions and that is going to make leveling up this stone/ice tank I'm fooling with really hard. In fact it seems like most of these are spawning as Elite Bosses...

I guess I'm wondering if they scale the bosses in the user missions like they do in the regular CoH content?

And boy, does it take a while before a tank feels like a tank...my katana scrapper felt more tankish.

[Creole Ned]

So I finally joined one of the "lfm AE farm" groups just because I wanted to find out what the heck they were.

My MM went from level 12 to 25 in 3 missions.

Something's broken, but I'm too busy dinging my horde of lesser played alts to figure out what.
I don't know what the devs will do about this but I can only imagine the hammer is going to come down hard (and soon). As you say, it's broken and horribly so. The farm spam is pretty silly.

Quick question for those in the know. Normally, when you have set your challenge level to Heroic, Bosses are all spawned in as lieutenants. This doesn't seem to be the case though with user missions and that is going to make leveling up this stone/ice tank I'm fooling with really hard. In fact it seems like most of these are spawning as Elite Bosses...

I guess I'm wondering if they scale the bosses in the user missions like they do in the regular CoH content?

And boy, does it take a while before a tank feels like a tank...my katana scrapper felt more tankish.
I know player missions can adjust the level of the enemy up or down, giving them more or fewer powers to use, so it may be that also ties in with whether they scale down or up from regular bosses. I dunno for sure, though. No doubt Glazious Falconar does. :)

Three of us ran a level 39 player mission tonight and it was decent but tough -- no farming here! But amongst the level 39s were a number of level 46 minion snakes. I'm not sure if it was a bug or deliberate but trying to take down anything that is +7 in a group of three is...not so fun. Still, it's nice to not always know what to expect.

[quatoria]

Hmm. Maybe I should go try to take advantage of this on one of my level 40's before it goes away, to see if I can actually hit level 50 for the first time.

[Kalle]

It caps at three slots now doesn't it?

No, but there are sharply diminishing returns after three slots.

[SolomonGrundy]

All I've seen the dev's doing is deleting known farming missions...but it takes like 5 minutes to make your own so...
Yeah I'm torn, as a MMO Dev I know you want your world to be explored and appreciated, and people 'abusing' the system like this could hurt...
But screw it, numbers are up, game is probably entering End of Life and people are having fun playing, it really isn't up to the devs to dictate what 'fun' is to the player base. If they want to 'farm' then whoopie- have fun. It is not like if you ding 50 you overbalance the game or anything. Alt-itis is strong in CoX, so they are just going to do it again...and again...and again...

[GlaziusFalconar]

I believe it is the initials of the "company" in game that runs the user created missions...something like Architect Entertainment (or Enterprises).

Quick question for those in the know. Normally, when you have set your challenge level to Heroic, Bosses are all spawned in as lieutenants. This doesn't seem to be the case though with user missions and that is going to make leveling up this stone/ice tank I'm fooling with really hard. In fact it seems like most of these are spawning as Elite Bosses...

I guess I'm wondering if they scale the bosses in the user missions like they do in the regular CoH content?

And boy, does it take a while before a tank feels like a tank...my katana scrapper felt more tankish.

Actually, if elite bosses are showing up on heroic, it means the mission creator has decided to put in an Archvillain.

Elite Bosses turn into bosses on heroic, and bosses into lieutenants.

[Robert Sharp]

Oh! A free reactivation? I'd like to try that. Do I have to get out the disks and such, and if so, can I just install CoX? Or do I have to install the whole thing. I can't remember. Is there a way to DL it without buying it again, since I use to have an account?

Edit: Nevermind. I found it. I can just go to my account on the CoH page and DL it for free, apparently, since I've already activated the code in the past. Hope it works!

[jaygittings]

Actually, if elite bosses are showing up on heroic, it means the mission creator has decided to put in an Archvillain.

Elite Bosses turn into bosses on heroic, and bosses into lieutenants.

Thanks Glazius. The odd thing was that this particular elite boss dropped as faster, or faster, than a lieutenant. Now this mission was at level 5 or 6, so I imagine that had a lot to do with it...but if the variability is going to be that high, I'll have to tread lightly once I get to 10.

I'm still looking for class that has alot of the fun options that my AR/Dev blaster had, but just a tad bit more survivability...my goodness, the pain and suffering of the malta gunslingers and carnie bosses/lieutenants...I still have nightmares. Lethal resistances for all mobs and no status protection can be a challenge, to say the least.

[EvilIdler]

What the hell does AE stand for? Area Effect? that's normally aoe...

Area effect. A power has an area effect. Area of Effect sounds like something made up by kids who don't speak English very well, in my opinion. It's also clunkier.

[Marcin]

All I've seen the dev's doing is deleting known farming missions...but it takes like 5 minutes to make your own so...
Yeah I'm torn, as a MMO Dev I know you want your world to be explored and appreciated, and people 'abusing' the system like this could hurt...
But screw it, numbers are up, game is probably entering End of Life and people are having fun playing, it really isn't up to the devs to dictate what 'fun' is to the player base. If they want to 'farm' then whoopie- have fun. It is not like if you ding 50 you overbalance the game or anything. Alt-itis is strong in CoX, so they are just going to do it again...and again...and again...

This is kind of my take on it as well. On one hand, it's broken. On the other hand, I've played the game for 3 years and only got ONE character to 50 due to the slog. It's nice to be able to visit some of those high-level areas and actually get to play in them with high level powers without the hideous XP curve getting in the way of the 15 alts you have waiting in the wings.

And I just found out yesterday that Villain Epic Archetypes are in. I don't have one of those yet - more alts to try out!

AE is Architect Entertainment, the in-game name of the mission design system.

[Drastic]

Area effect. A power has an area effect.
AE in the "lfm AE farm!" sense is "Architect Entertainment", the dubious in-game story justification for the user-generated missions.

AOE is "area of effect" powers. There's targeted AOE and PBAOE; the former being area effects targetted wherever, the latter "player-based" that affect the area immediately surrounding the casting player with the effect.

Area of Effect sounds like something made up by kids who don't speak English very well, in my opinion.

That's just another way of saying "it's MMO jargon." :)

[Hugin]

Area effect. A power has an area effect. Area of Effect sounds like something made up by kids who don't speak English very well, in my opinion. It's also clunkier.


"Area of Effect" is a holdover from pen and paper rpg days, where spells and effects could have varying, and precisely described "areas of effect", or "the area of effect" for that particular spell.

In other words, it wasn't so much denoting the type of effect, but explicitly defining the scope of the effect, probably for a square or hex grid where such fiddlyness was important. For MMOs, it's just shorthand to indicate the spell has an area effect at all, without a lot of precision as to its size or shape.

And "proper" English is chock full of quirky remnant stuff like that anyway.

[barstein]

All right, so I joined the ranks of substituting a bit of CoH for CO until it's July release. I feel a little silly doing this since I doubt I'll keep the subscription for more than a month, but who knows what will happen.

Since I tend to solo a lot, I imagine the recommendation is still to roll a scrapper or a blaster. (Assuming I don't want to be a villain, which I never experienced - which villain archetypes are ideal for the solo experience?)

More generally, are there any broad "that was then, this is now" guides or lists out there a player from long ago benefit from? For example, my favorite archetype before were controllers but I'm not sure how to best establish how different the controllers today are from their counterparts during the game's first year of life.

[MikeJ]

Since I tend to solo a lot, I imagine the recommendation is still to roll a scrapper or a blaster. (Assuming I don't want to be a villain, which I never experienced - which villain archetypes are ideal for the solo experience?)


All of the villain types can solo pretty well. I think *most* soloable would probably be a brute, as you can basically get up a head of steam and smash your way through a lot of missions. A stalker is also pretty good, as you can kill most bothersome mobs right away or just stealth past most things you want to skip.

More generally, are there any broad "that was then, this is now" guides or lists out there a player from long ago benefit from? For example, my favorite archetype before were controllers but I'm not sure how to best establish how different the controllers today are from their counterparts during the game's first year of life.

I don't know about lists, but controllers had a few changes after the year. This may not be entirely up to date, but they decreased the availability of many of the hard AoE holds (so you can't use them every mob spawn, or not as easily). They also added containment damage so that mobs that are already held, stunned or slept take double damage from controller powers. That made pre-pet soloing a fair bit easier.

[Hugin]

Soloing with a controller in CoH is safe but slow.

Masterminds are fantastic for soloing in CoX, particularly the distance oriented Masterminds.

[Pentadact]

Did they ever make the Mastermind less arduous to play? I got sick of having to re-summon, re-upgrade and re-buff all of my bots every time I stepped through a door of any kind. And of getting trapped by them in narrow corridors.

-

[EvilIdler]

And "proper" English is chock full of quirky remnant stuff like that anyway.

We should make Lojban the official language of roleplaying games, then. Rules lawyers would love it :)

[Cal]

Did they ever make the Mastermind less arduous to play? I got sick of having to re-summon, re-upgrade and re-buff all of my bots every time I stepped through a door of any kind. And of getting trapped by them in narrow corridors.

-

This is the reason i quit CoV. I LOVED the mastermind, its the only class i ever got into. However the fact when i went through a door i had to summon them all again which took a minute, then buff and upgrade them, it so monotonous that i quit and never looked back. I would LOVE to come back if they fixed this.

[Erich]

They did. The upgrade powers are AOE now, so you can upgrade all your minions with a single use.

[Hugin]

Yeah, any upgrade affects all summoned minions, and you can move through your minions now, they're ghosts to you.

[barstein]

I tried out the mastermind last night - my first conscious choice to play an evil character in any game ever I think - and man, I just couldn't get into the whole evil thing. I suppose the only cure is prolonged exposure.

[EvilIdler]

"The" mastermind? Did you try more than one powerset? Some are bit meh, but some can be fun. They also start a bit boring, but the real fun comes after level 10.

[Mark Asher]

All I've seen the dev's doing is deleting known farming missions...but it takes like 5 minutes to make your own so...
Yeah I'm torn, as a MMO Dev I know you want your world to be explored and appreciated, and people 'abusing' the system like this could hurt...
But screw it, numbers are up, game is probably entering End of Life and people are having fun playing, it really isn't up to the devs to dictate what 'fun' is to the player base. If they want to 'farm' then whoopie- have fun. It is not like if you ding 50 you overbalance the game or anything. Alt-itis is strong in CoX, so they are just going to do it again...and again...and again...

This just points out again that the game needs faster leveling. That's what the players want. Players love to make alts in CoX -- it's been like that since it launched.

Fast leveling to the cap and then good, developer crafted mission arcs for capped characters. There should be a new dev-crafted mission arc every month. It should be like a comic book series in that respect, with an ongoing story arc.

[Creole Ned]

Mark, the leveling speed has been increased, with a big softening of the leveling curve, not to mention patrol (read: rest) XP added. When was the last time you played?

[Mark Asher]

Years ago. I keep thinking I will try it again, but I don't really want to invest the time in multiple MMOs.

[Mordrak]

Years ago. I keep thinking I will try it again, but I don't really want to invest the time in multiple MMOs.

Yeah, I hear ya. I wish more MMOs adopted a guild wars model rather than a subscription model. I'd feel better about switching between them. However, that probably requires the game to be a bigger success generally. A subscription fee allows you to keep a mildly successful MMO on life support.

[barstein]

"The" mastermind? Did you try more than one powerset? Some are bit meh, but some can be fun. They also start a bit boring, but the real fun comes after level 10.I'm sure this is all true. It's just the concept of "being" evil that trips me up. Like I said, I'm sure if I let it the attraction will grow (especially considering all the new CoV content).

[Pentadact]

I had the opposite problem. I couldn't help feeling that since almost all of my 'evil' missions were to wipe out other evil creatures and bosses - including my own employers for some reason - that I was effectively doing an enormous public service.

-

[roBurky]

Barstein: It's actually really hard to do anything villainous in City of Villains. Even pantomime villainy. At worst, you're just a hired thug, fighting one villain group for another villain group. A lot of the time, you're doing good deeds, only difference from hero side being your contact insults you all the time.

[gurugeorge]

I'm sure this is all true. It's just the concept of "being" evil that trips me up. Like I said, I'm sure if I let it the attraction will grow (especially considering all the new CoV content).

Hehe, I sympathise. I consider it a serious character flaw that I am constitutionally incapable of playing evil characters.

MM is a fanatastic pet class. I got a Thugs/FF to late 40s - try it if you want a low-maintenance set. If you keep them bubbled they hardly ever get wiped.

[Mordrak]

Barstein: It's actually really hard to do anything villainous in City of Villains. Even pantomime villainy. At worst, you're just a hired thug, fighting one villain group for another villain group. A lot of the time, you're doing good deeds, only difference from hero side being your contact insults you all the time.

Yeah, the closest thing to villainy you do is the bank jobs and kidnapping. Some friends at the time it came out said they weren't interested unless they could concoct and enact their own evil plots. MA I think can help with this a bit, but it's always going to be a pale imitation.

Personally I like the conceptualization of my villains, even if I can't enact plots directly. The villain/hero task force coming up sounds interesting. DCUO looks like it might be doing something interesting in this regard, but it'd be neat to be able to do a series of missions or something where you end up infesting Atlas Park with zombies.

As a side note, I've been leveling a lot of alts recently and trying out many of the power pools. So far, the one I liked the most is a defender trick arrow/archery. It's pretty cool blasting them with an explosive arrow and picking off the remaining ones. You get a lot of utility powers to mix it up which is nice. It seems more active than my other choices.

Oh, btw, I remember energy looking cool, but is the knockback as annoying as it would seem for group play? I'm trying to plan my blaster.

[Anders Hallin]

I downloaded it again yesterday, and reactivated my old character Bondswoman. And then last night before I had had time to actually play, my computer died :(

[GlaziusFalconar]

Yeah, the closest thing to villainy you do is the bank jobs and kidnapping. Some friends at the time it came out said they weren't interested unless they could concoct and enact their own evil plots. MA I think can help with this a bit, but it's always going to be a pale imitation.

Well, the trouble is that while heroes will generally go along with any old thing that'll save the city from being shrunken into a bottle and sold as a collector's item, villains may have a lot of different personal reasons for deciding to shrink the city into a bottle and sell it as a collector's item. Trying to write for the varied motivations is tough sledding, at least in the system as it currently is.

Oh, btw, I remember energy looking cool, but is the knockback as annoying as it would seem for group play? I'm trying to plan my blaster.

Knockback is annoying if you dumbfire (press button, shoot whatever's closest). Used with good positioning or from the sky, so back becomes down, it's great soft control.

[EvilIdler]

I got a Thugs/FF to late 40s - try it if you want a low-maintenance set. If you keep them bubbled they hardly ever get wiped.

This gives me an idea for the gayest mastermind ever!

[Hugin]

This gives me an idea for the gayest mastermind ever!

The thugs for my Thug Mastermind are named Brint, Rufus, and Meekus.

The thugs for my Robots mastermind are Yanni, John Tesh, Zamfir, Michael Bolton, etc

[malkav11]

I don't know about lists, but controllers had a few changes after the year. This may not be entirely up to date, but they decreased the availability of many of the hard AoE holds (so you can't use them every mob spawn, or not as easily). They also added containment damage so that mobs that are already held, stunned or slept take double damage from controller powers. That made pre-pet soloing a fair bit easier.

I was actually around for that, and it annoyed me considerably. Here I am, building my controller specifically for group-related hard control and they nerf my hard control while giving me more damage so I can solo. Gee, thanks. I don't want to solo. I want to lock down the evildoers in a large group!

(Which, even now, isn't that hard to come by, if you're proactive about it.)

[Damien Neil]

Well, the trouble is that while heroes will generally go along with any old thing that'll save the city from being shrunken into a bottle and sold as a collector's item, villains may have a lot of different personal reasons for deciding to shrink the city into a bottle and sell it as a collector's item. Trying to write for the varied motivations is tough sledding, at least in the system as it currently is.

If you're taking a mission, you're working for someone, right? So the varied motivations apply to the contacts, not the players. One day you're working with someone who wants to rule the world, the next you're working with someone who wants to destroy it. Either way, your own motivation is to advance your own interests by temporarily cooperating with your contact.

[RobotPants]

I think they did a fairly good job making the Villains side seem villainous and the hero side seem heroic. You're doing basically the same things for the most part, sure, but the general atmosphere is much different.

[gurugeorge]

Used with good positioning or from the sky, so back becomes down, it's great soft control.

3 slotted Hover ftw! Nearly-as-fast-as-sprint combat movement, fully 3-d, no movement suppression - great for energy blasters' down-blasting trick in particular, but also for folks with lots of cones to position (Blasters, DD Defenders, Controllers, etc.)

[Mordrak]

Well, the trouble is that while heroes will generally go along with any old thing that'll save the city from being shrunken into a bottle and sold as a collector's item, villains may have a lot of different personal reasons for deciding to shrink the city into a bottle and sell it as a collector's item. Trying to write for the varied motivations is tough sledding, at least in the system as it currently is.


Yeah, I can see that. After playing CoX with the fast leveling and such, I think Diablo inspired superhero game would do well with similar and/or more levels of customization.


Knockback is annoying if you dumbfire (press button, shoot whatever's closest). Used with good positioning or from the sky, so back becomes down, it's great soft control.

I figured that out with my defender, but looking down all the time is kind of annoying, especially when you're trying to get into position.


I was actually around for that, and it annoyed me considerably. Here I am, building my controller specifically for group-related hard control and they nerf my hard control while giving me more damage so I can solo. Gee, thanks. I don't want to solo. I want to lock down the evildoers in a large group!

(Which, even now, isn't that hard to come by, if you're proactive about it.)


If balanced correctly, that's what it seems like the enahncement/slotting mechanic should be doing. Something awry if that system doesn't fascilitate those distinctions between controllers.

[GlaziusFalconar]

3 slotted Hover ftw! Nearly-as-fast-as-sprint combat movement, fully 3-d, no movement suppression - great for energy blasters' down-blasting trick in particular, but also for folks with lots of cones to position (Blasters, DD Defenders, Controllers, etc.)

Actually these days I think one-slotted Hover is faster than Sprint. Fly got a turbo boost too.

If balanced correctly, that's what it seems like the enahncement/slotting mechanic should be doing. Something awry if that system doesn't fascilitate those distinctions between controllers.

Well, you can still put six slots into your area powers, halve the recharge, double the duration. Or treat them as panic buttons and instead slot up your single-target powers for damage.

You just need a control set with multiple vectors for disabling (fire, earth, gravity, possibly ice) to have something up more or less every group to take the edge off the alpha. You're just never going to get to the point where nothing lower than a boss will ever attack your team.

[quatoria]

The thugs for my Thug Mastermind are named Brint, Rufus, and Meekus.

The thugs for my Robots mastermind are Yanni, John Tesh, Zamfir, Michael Bolton, etc

Heh. My bot minions are Igor, Renfeld, and Oddjob. My lieutenants? Arthur and Sancho Panza. And my assault bot, of course, is Grendel. All V2.0, of course - improvements over the originals.

[Brian Rucker]

I really enjoyed my Mastermind but the repetition in the missions just got me eventually. He was cool though with his group flight and his crazy Russian commando team. Even got a little RP in on Virtue. I may have to check out Architect but it doesn't sound like there's really all that much variation on the theme of "go into instance, kill bad guys" just like random missions. I'm kinda curious as to what makes the good player created missions good? How much of a free hand do you really have to do inventive stuff?

Edit: Oh, and my online handle is OddjobXL so nice naming choice Quatoria. It's a tribute to me of course! (Not just a riff on an evil villain henchman theme. No sir!)

[MikeJ]

You just need a control set with multiple vectors for disabling (fire, earth, gravity, possibly ice) to have something up more or less every group to take the edge off the alpha. You're just never going to get to the point where nothing lower than a boss will ever attack your team.

I can't believe you wouldn't mention Mind as something with multiple vectors for disabling.

[quatoria]

Mind is a tremendous amount of fun, particularly as a dominator. I have mass sleeps, mass confuses, rapid fire holds, and just for fun, I can fire up telekinesis and hold every goddamn thing I can see and smash them into a wall in a tasty little flammable ball of incipient deathiness. I used to say that my mind dom specialized in locking down AV's, for the sheer range of stackable controls he could bring to the fight. Nothing resists multiple holds + telekinesis, and if something miraculously does, I'll throw its goddamn ass fifty feet in the air. Damn, I need to go play The Omega Chain now.

[Creole Ned]

My level 50 villain is a mind/psionic dominator and remains my favorite villainside character just because the powers are so damn fun to use. Mind is a control set that really lives up to the control part.

Rucker, you should have played for free during the past week and tried out some Dev Choice player arcs. There are limits on what players can do but people are already pushing those limits in inventive ways. The core mechanics remain the same, but careful use of unique maps, custom critters and manipulating spawns, patrols and other mission goals goes a long way to making the rote warehouse mission #45 fresher.

[GlaziusFalconar]

I can't believe you wouldn't mention Mind as something with multiple vectors for disabling.

Hypnosis is a great delay tactic but breaks on damage, ditto with Terrify, TK needs positioning, and Mass Confuse has the same base four-minute recharge as Total Domination.

Stalagmites, Flashfire, Wormhole, and I-still-think-it's-a-new-control-power Seeds of Confusion are all under 2 minutes base. (though actually if I'm including Ice Slick as partially qualifying Mind's probably good to go there.)

[pogozorro]

Due to the overwhelming excitement generated by I14, I finally reupped (after 1,096 days, the game tells me).

Egad. I had so many characters at so many points that I'm absolutely lost. My highest hero is a 34 blaster (El Pollo Diablo, the most suicidal hero ever to set foot in Paragon City), and my highest villain is a 25-ish controller whose name escapes me at the moment.

Any ideas?

[Hugin]

Hypnosis is a great delay tactic but breaks on damage, ditto with Terrify, TK needs positioning, and Mass Confuse has the same base four-minute recharge as Total Domination.


Yeah, but you're not going to be on the base timers, certainly not by the time you've got Total Domination or Terrify or whatever. Throw in Haste and fill in the cracks with normal Domination and Confuse, slotted for enhanced effect duration, and you're all set.

[EvilIdler]

My highest hero is a 34 blaster (El Pollo Diablo, the most suicidal hero ever to set foot in Paragon City)

I have a fire blaster a bit like that. Usually showing the "Pwnz" badge. I also have a martial arts/regen scrapper who is more effective, and lives longer :/

If you're lost about what to do, start by talking to one of those people who adjust your difficulty. Set it down to heroic. Then go try an Architect mission arc. I play for a bit once per year, and am always kinda lost when I get back to it, but a relaxing developer's choice mission is the best way to ease back.

Get invention recipes at the university. Some accuracy and damage to start with, then get inventive with combination enhancements later. Unlike training/dual-origin/single-origin enhancements, inventions never reduce in efficiency. Once you have 32% extra damage per (or whatever), you'll continue having that each level until you find something else.

Never sell luck charms (salvage you find).

[EvilIdler]

I want to lock down the evildoers in a large group!


Death is the ultimate crowd-control.

[Creole Ned]

My highest hero is a 34 blaster (El Pollo Diablo, the most suicidal hero ever to set foot in Paragon City).
I can vouch for that!

[malkav11]

Death is the ultimate crowd-control.

Yeah, but if I want that I roll a blaster.

[malkav11]

If balanced correctly, that's what it seems like the enahncement/slotting mechanic should be doing. Something awry if that system doesn't fascilitate those distinctions between controllers.

Oh, no, you can still spec a bunch of different ways, and my controller is still very low damage, very high control and debuff. What annoyed me was that they made an underlying mechanical change to make my chosen emphasis less useful while theoretically giving back in the form of the double damage while controlled archetype power. Since damage isn't my thing, it was a distinct net loss, all in the name of being able to solo with a class that, imho, is better served as a group-oriented support class.

[EvilIdler]

I'm happy with earth control, really.

[Creole Ned]

The controller changes were just as much about reining in control powers as they were about making controllers more solo-friendly.

The original version of CoH was pretty fun but powers and balance-wise, horribly broken.

[Mordrak]

Well I might be on later tonight, but will definitely be throughout the week. If anyone's down for doing story arcs or costume/aura missions on Virtue, I've got a bunch of characters, all in the 30ish to mid 30 range now.

Give me a tell or just wave if you see me passing by.

Heroes:

Astounding Archer - Defender
Nebul - Controller
Homerun Hunny - Tank
Classy Chassis - Scrapper
Star Sugah - Blaster

Villains:

Yarrrr 2000 - Brute
Monstrous Morde - Brute
Dread Zed - Mastermind
Dirty Duscha - Corruptor
Lady Braythorn - Dominator

[Creole Ned]

I still have Indigo Bolt (blaster) on Virtue from the old Guardians of the Golden Age (http://gotga.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=237896&TabID=2002420) supergroup. That was years ago, yikes. I think he's level 37 or 38.

[Mordrak]

I still have Indigo Bolt (blaster) on Virtue from the old Guardians of the Golden Age (http://gotga.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=237896&TabID=2002420) supergroup. That was years ago, yikes. I think he's level 37 or 38.

Oops. I probably should have asked where the active players were before I went on a character binge. o.O I don't think I have it in me to do it again. Heh. My global is zomdi, but there's no reason to leave your usually stomping grounds. Virtue's a pretty active server.

How's your arc coming?

[Creole Ned]

Two arcs, both coming along slowly (two missions done for each so far). And actually, the primary servers I play on are Triumph (heroes) and Pinnacle (villains). It just happened that the Guardians were on Virtue since the SG had a strong RP focus. I do have other characters on Virtue, but they are all below 20, as I recall.

[Mordrak]

Two arcs, both coming along slowly (two missions done for each so far). And actually, the primary servers I play on are Triumph (heroes) and Pinnacle (villains). It just happened that the Guardians were on Virtue since the SG had a strong RP focus. I do have other characters on Virtue, but they are all below 20, as I recall.

Cool, well if I'm taken by another character concept, I'll make it on Triumph or Pinnacle. I hear the next two power sets for I15 are going to be demon summoning and dual pistols. That seems like a prime time for another character (other than the fact that MA will likely be nerfed by then). Nebul would probably make a good combination with your blaster. He's a illusion/storm controller. I pushed through a bunch of characters to 30ish mainly because I didn't want to waste the opportunity for cheap xp. Heh. :)

[pogozorro]

I can vouch for that!

It was my duty to take one (two, three, five hundred and sixty four...) for the team.

[Brian Rucker]

Well, guess what I went and did last night? Yup, back on Virtue. All my villain names were intact but some of my heroes lost their cool names. Ah, Brand, that's a classy name for a fire using super. You'll be missed.

I even made a new Mastermind with thugs and that new healing secondary power set. Can you believe the name "Defiler" wasn't taken yet?

I can't remember the names of my other villains offhand. I'll edit them in when I get home. They're all level 6, for some reason, except my original Mastermind who's in his 30's I think. He's a mess of a build but hella fun to play. Yes, I did give him all the shooty powers you're not supposed to. Yes, he's using mercs and has group flight. Anyone got a problem with that?! There's just something so cool about "Death From Above!" even with the acc debuffs....

[GlaziusFalconar]

Yeah, but you're not going to be on the base timers, certainly not by the time you've got Total Domination or Terrify or whatever. Throw in Haste and fill in the cracks with normal Domination and Confuse, slotted for enhanced effect duration, and you're all set.

Well, right. But what I'm saying is, a four-minute base timer still isn't going to be up every spawn, even with hasten and soft-capped recharge going. So you need an alternate method of control, which doesn't have to be up every spawn either, but should be up, like, 2 out of every 3 or so, so your actual long-timer hold can fill in the cracks.

(it's assumed that some spawns will go faster than others because of other people's timers on e.g. Build Up.)

[MikeJ]

Well, right. But what I'm saying is, a four-minute base timer still isn't going to be up every spawn, even with hasten and soft-capped recharge going. So you need an alternate method of control, which doesn't have to be up every spawn either, but should be up, like, 2 out of every 3 or so, so your actual long-timer hold can fill in the cracks..

Well, I'll grant that Earth, Fire and Gravity have a nice hard-control power on a fast recharge that doesn't depend on geometry. So there's a certain consistency of hard control that Mind lacks. It struck me as strange though to say that Mind lacks alternate disabling techniques.

In practice though, I'm not sure that this lack in Mind is important. For a typical spawn, if everything was going smoothly, I often found Terrify plus single-target powers perfectly adequate. It's not hard control like a disorient but it seriously impedes their ability to return fire.

Where people would run into trouble was in adds or the initial engagement going poorly, and I think this is where Mind does pretty well. You can keep an add spawn out of the picture with Mass Hypnosis. Terrify will pretty much keep another one out of the picture. In many indoor locations Telekinesis is good for most of another. Then there's still Total Domination and Mass Confusion as backup.

[Mordrak]

So it looks like they are clamping down on mission architect abuse:

One thing was made clear to me when I interacted with the players on our Anniversary. It was that you guys really don’t like the powerlevelling that is going on with MA. The constant spam of MA PL teams forming, requests for “Meow” missions, 5 star badge cartels, and the inability to find quality content in the Mission Architect listing are all things I heard complaints about over and over while I was logged in on Tuesday.

So what are they doing?

Well..


• Players that have abused the reward system egregiously may lose benefits they have gained - leading up to and perhaps including losing access to the characters power-leveled in this fashion.

• Currently, some badges are being modified, and some may be removed from the game entirely. The list of changes being made to the MA badge system is not final yet, but you will be made aware when we have a concrete plan.

• Players who knowingly use an exploit when creating an arc, run the risk of having access to MA suspended, or worse- depending on the severity of the action, their account banned.

• Players who have a story arc banned for any reason, will have it continue to use up one of their publishing slots. Players will NOT be able to unpublish this slot without Customer Service’s help. This sets up a “three strikes and you’re out” policy. If an individual gets three story arcs banned, they will no longer be able to publish since their slots will all be used up with banned arcs.
•• This lock will not take place on the first level of “complaint banning”, where an arc has received a larger number of complaints. Players will still have a chance to fix the arc.
•• If Customer Service looks at an arc and determines it was banned in error, they will mark it as “unbannable”. At that point the arc can not be banned for any reason. The unbannable flag will reset if the player makes any changes to the arc at that point, and the arc can be banned again.
•• Remember, publishing slots are account wide, so players will not be able to log in another character on their account and use their slots instead.
•• Players are urged to avoid using common farming terms in their story title and/or descriptions. Even if it’s a joke, DO NOT run the risk of having an arc banned and requiring Customer Support to grant you your publishing slot back.


While I can understand it, given how widespread the activity seemed, the policy should be enacted from here on out. If they knew they were going to possibly delete characters or remove levels, they should have posted that sooner at least, but preferably had a pop-up when logging in describing the potential repercussions of abuse. I think a better designed mission constructed ruleset is a more useful solution than punitive measures. That said, in full disclosure, I leveled quite a few characters, so I've seen a lot of the powers and enjoyed my time. If I do lose them, it just makes it that much easier to quit come June either that, or it'll give me a reason to restart on Triumph. Heh.

The real tragedy is I was going stage a mock protest on Friday with the picket emote, but now that they are doing something about it, they've ruined all my fun.

[davidf]

The controller changes were just as much about reining in control powers as they were about making controllers more solo-friendly.

The original version of CoH was pretty fun but powers and balance-wise, horribly broken.

I just wished they had found to keep those extremes relevant and not watered down the powers! The transition from DC extreme to marvel lite was extremely jarring

[Erich]

The punishment is lame. People will attach nominal stories to their farm missions and continue to farm anyway.

Add diminishing returns on MA missions, so there is less gained by replaying them, or some other throttle on farming that will not affect normal teams.

[Mordrak]

Well, guess what I went and did last night? Yup, back on Virtue. All my villain names were intact but some of my heroes lost their cool names. Ah, Brand, that's a classy name for a fire using super. You'll be missed.

I even made a new Mastermind with thugs and that new healing secondary power set. Can you believe the name "Defiler" wasn't taken yet?

I can't remember the names of my other villains offhand. I'll edit them in when I get home. They're all level 6, for some reason, except my original Mastermind who's in his 30's I think. He's a mess of a build but hella fun to play. Yes, I did give him all the shooty powers you're not supposed to. Yes, he's using mercs and has group flight. Anyone got a problem with that?! There's just something so cool about "Death From Above!" even with the acc debuffs....

I think I'm going to start a hero on Triumph, let my virtue characters sit for awhile until the MA thing blows over. Although I've got one low level villain on Virtue that hasn't touched MA missions. I wouldn't mind going through hero the regular missions again, since I haven't done that since CoH launched and even then only got to the mid twenties generally. Edit: And now I'm Soul Justice on Triumph as well. Heh.

[EvilIdler]

I just played my merc mastermind over on one of the European servers, and he feels a lot stronger than I remember him. I actually never lost a single thug during missions, for the first time ever! Nice of them to make the minion buffs affect all summoned minions, but you still have to summon every time you enter an instance :/

All I see in broadcast is "lvl2 lff" and similar things, but I did get an honest to gosh group who didn't care for that crap one evening. My blades/willpower tanker was quite effective, being nearly immune to psionics :)

Damn, so many heroes and villains I haven't played! Wish I could merge my other two accounts.

[gurugeorge]

I logged on last night and couldn't believe my eyes - the leader of the PUG I was in actually had some normal story arcs lined up ready to roll, and then continued to do story arc missions. We didn't even do a radio mission!

That's the "old skool" way I used to lead, before the MA, before even radio/newspaper missions came along - prepare 3 missions of your own, think about the routes so there's little down time, etc., then do others' missions that are appropriate to level (adjusting rep if necessary) or aren't far away.

*wanders off mumbling about "the good old days"*

[Alex Hopkinson]

I just played my merc mastermind over on one of the European servers, and he feels a lot stronger than I remember him. I actually never lost a single thug during missions, for the first time ever! Nice of them to make the minion buffs affect all summoned minions, but you still have to summon every time you enter an instance :/

My robot mastermind, who I liked the concept of but hated playing, had forcefields as a secondary. Presumably I'd still have to do each of the two bubbles on every damn minion every few minutes/every mission/every minion death.

[Brian Rucker]

I have three heroes on Virtue now. All very low level as this account was mainly for my flirtation with CoV. All the RP seems to be hero side though and since that's my thing that's where I am. A friend of mine runs a hero team loosely based on SHIELD so I made a couple "agents" and a powered armor guy who'd be redshirts for them. Look for Agent Khan, Agent Able and Mobile Suit Gamma if you want to find me. My universal ID is @OddjobXL.

[quatoria]

I promise, all the RP is not hero side. I'll see who's still around in my RP VG, The Conspiracy of Shadows.

[Mordrak]

The RPing kind of creeps me out, at least the RP I saw in Atlas Park. I've known one person who RP'd that I thought was particularly good, but they were also fairly funny. Humor definitely takes the edge off the weird factor. That said, the costumes of some of the RPers seem to be better than average.

[Creole Ned]

That thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Dev&Number=13427300&page=0&fpart=1) about coming down on MA farming got to over 3,000 posts in 24 hours and is over 4,000 currently. Whole lot of nerdrage going on there, as well as some serious post-padding and one genuine "off the deep end" episode that undoubtedly resulted in a forum ban.

There has always been lots of farming and powerleveling in CoH and to my knowledge they have never removed access to characters that were powerleveled, so the threat to do so is new and in my opinion, ill-advised. Matt Miller (Positron, lead designer) allowed the Mission Architect to go live with some well-documented means to facilitate power-leveling, some of which are outright exploits but many of which simply use the mission architect as designed (all boss groups, etc.)

Since the devs themselves have apparently had heated discussions over what constitutes farming in the game, my hunch is that Miller is going to get pushed out in favor of someone who takes a more lenient view. I mostly say this because I think Miller has actually been detrimental to the game by allowing the content to stagnate and trickling out new content in such small amounts that it is trivially consumed in a few hours. Meanwhile, we get new system after new system and a seemingly endless stream of new reward mechanism (prestige, merits, tickets, etc.), all built on top of the same rotten old mission design and environments.

So yeah. Farming bad. New content good. Or something.

[RobotPants]

Yeah, putting up a big post about how people may get their characters locked is pretty stupid and causes nothing but ill-will toward the devs. Even though the AE mission abuse needs to be curbed, that's certainly not the best way to do it. The main way this was happening was with the Rikti Comm. Officers and they've already patched the game to lower the rewards for them in created missions. So all this does is cause a lot of people who have previously used the AE farming missions to powerlevel their characters to be paranoid that they may get banned.

And like Ned said, they've never threatened to lock out characters for anything before. There was rampant powerleveling on a certain seasonal event monster a while back that gave massive XP and, of course, lots of people used it that way. All the devs did in that case was lessen the reward for beating it the following year. Much different than this whole "you may lose your character" bit going on here.

[quatoria]

It's kind of jawdropping that they'd be willing to court this much potential ill will amongst paying customers, with Champions Release on the horizon, and DCU in development. Particularly Champions.

[EvilIdler]

My robot mastermind, who I liked the concept of but hated playing, had forcefields as a secondary. Presumably I'd still have to do each of the two bubbles on every damn minion every few minutes/every mission/every minion death.

I picked a very low-maintenance secondary: Darkety dark. Twilight Grasp every now and then, maybe use my one attack (Buckshot) when something gets too close for comfort, and Tar Patch to make sure that doesn't happen in the first place. For boss fights, there's also Darkest Night (toggle to focus on the baddest enemy).

I summon soldiers, spec. ops, cast my minion buff on one of them and just hide behind the group for the mission :)

Robots can be fun with the right secondary. Bubbling is so tedious.

[Hugin]

I picked a very low-maintenance secondary: Darkety dark. Twilight Grasp every now and then, maybe use my one attack (Buckshot) when something gets too close for comfort, and Tar Patch to make sure that doesn't happen in the first place. For boss fights, there's also Darkest Night (toggle to focus on the baddest enemy).

I summon soldiers, spec. ops, cast my minion buff on one of them and just hide behind the group for the mission :)

Robots can be fun with the right secondary. Bubbling is so tedious.

Robots/Gadgets for me. I get my bots up and working, then drop a Force Field Generator and a couple stun drones, and I'm done. As far as offense, I'll pop a photon grenade every once in a blue moon, but mostly I stand back and watch my bots knockdown/knockback/photon grenade everything into paste.

[Mordrak]

It's kind of jawdropping that they'd be willing to court this much potential ill will amongst paying customers, with Champions Release on the horizon, and DCU in development. Particularly Champions.

I think it was partly an emotional reaction, which betrays itself in the beginning of the post with the goals for architect. You have a game you've spent years designing and then spend a significant amount of time turning over the tools to players to create cool mission only to have a significant group of players break all the work you did.

As for content versus gameplay systems, well, I think some of the new gameplay improvements are for the better (powers and responsibility, inventions and the market, and new power sets). I think salvage and the invention system worked pretty well because it tied into the influence system. It wasn't really redundant, but tickets and merits seem to be redundant.

Anyway, we'll see what happens in a few weeks.

[barstein]

Huh, anyone have advice for someone who's trapped in a room? Stephen Duke is standing right next to the doorway and the /stuck command is not helping. I'm done with the police mission but still have to lead him to the exit. Edit: Exiting to main menu and restarting the level was simple enough (and revealed that Stephen Duke is actually a doppelganger). Thanks!

[EvilIdler]

You can abandon a mission once every three days, making it count as completed. You also get the final mission reward. I use it for buggy missions, or when I can't be arsed to trek all the way under Faultline :)

[Mordrak]

One of the things I've been really enjoying in my return to CoH is other people's costumes. It fun to just log in and zoom around atlas and see what people are up to creatively. Here's some I've liked quite a bit recently...

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/hawksdr/screenshot_2009-05-14-22-39-40.jpg

I thought it was neat and well done with the in game pose emotes.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/hawksdr/coffeehero.jpg

I really liked this one too. I find I tend to like the more classic looking hero designs more.

Usually not an RPer but I checked out a beach party on Virtue thrown by the Justice Girls a week or so ago.

Here's a pic:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/hawksdr/beachparty.jpg

But I arrived to the party being crashed by zombies, which was fun. I'm not sure if it was a griefer or a dev, but it definitely made it more interesting than watching my character dance.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/hawksdr/beachpartycrashed.jpg

[barstein]

I especially like the first portrait, Mordrak. Those are all great. I think my favorites (whose screenshots, taken years ago, currently elude me) were a Thing 1, Thing 2 and Thing 3 team.

I had fun recently creating my first blaster, Daengel (Ice/fire). (Although the name is too obscure - the etymology is supposed to draw from a Devil-angel hybrid, with a couple of letters reversed.

http://i43.tinypic.com/98820l.png

This is my first non-controller, and playing this way has been a lot of fun. Having a satisfying concept seems to go a long way.

[Creole Ned]

I've been forcing RobotPants to play through my first mission arc repeatedly as I keep tweaking settings, text and everything else but I think I'm close to a final version now. It's designed for lowbies (the enemy groups are in the 1-14 range) and the biggest challenge by far has been designing a custom group that won't absolutely shred low level player characters.

It has been rather fun to build missions, link them together and generally try pushing what the editor can do.

[Creole Ned]

My first mission arc is finally done. It's nothing special, just your usual "save a wayward youth from a life of crime" story. It's five missions with a mix of ambushes, patrols, rescues, bosses and blowing stuff up and is called No More Fires For This Marshall. Arc ID is 177266. My global in-game is the same as my name here -- Creole Ned. Any feedback is appreciated.

[Mordrak]

My first mission arc is finally done. It's nothing special, just your usual "save a wayward youth from a life of crime" story. It's five missions with a mix of ambushes, patrols, rescues, bosses and blowing stuff up and is called No More Fires For This Marshall. Arc ID is 177266. My global in-game is the same as my name here -- Creole Ned. Any feedback is appreciated.

Cool, I'll make a new character tonight and give it a run. Thanks for the heads up!

[RobotPants]

It's still not as good as my story about a whale.

[Mordrak]

Well, I'm done. It's a cute story, pretty well fit for the early levels. Billy beat me up though since I was kind of pushing my luck at that point (on the last mish) so I didn't experience the ambush.

That took me from level 2 to just about level 5 solo. What's even funnier is that in between missions a costume contest was being held so I did my usually pan across the line up to check out characters and unexpectedly won. I didn't even line up, I was just wandering around. I got called a few names from some of the other contestants. Heh. It's a ton of money too (more than any of my characters have, though I'm not a regular player). I feel kind of guilty though since this is a throw away character. I guess I'll end up having to level him just so I don't feel bad.

So anyway, if you need any money on Freedom for starting a character, my name is Mr. Funky Fantastic and like he says, "Funk is the soul of freedom and I bring it."

[Creole Ned]

Heh, I've had friends accidentally win costume contests before, too (one in CoV, which is pretty rare).

Thanks for trying the arc out. I wanted it to work as an alternate to an initial contact and by getting to level 5 it pretty much accomplishes that. I also couldn't resist making the tone cheeky. Every time I try to write a "serious" story for a mission arc, my brain just refuses to go anywhere with it.

I'm working on finishing the second arc now, which will probably be pegged at mid to high level characters.

[Creole Ned]

It's still not as good as my story about a whale.
Your stories give people nightmares!

Especially the Doghead Underwear villain group.

[seventimessix]

I resubscribed and have been drunkenly stumbling through some of my old characters. I talked to quatoria for a bit and it seems like most people are playing on Virtue, so I'll roll a couple new alts up and be around if anyone needs a mission partner. My global is @TK426.

[Wholly Schmidt]

I just resubscribed for some reason. It's been at least a year or so since I played, so I don't remember what to do with any of my characters. Since I'm going to roll a new one, what's the best solo class these days? Heroes or villains, doesn't matter to me.

[Kalle]

Regen scrappers. I prefer Dark as the primary since it makes it harder for enemies to hit you, but when you're constantly healing and recovering stamina at a faster rate you can solo a lot more effectively.

[Raife]

You people are going to make me resub. I hate you all.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Regen scrappers. I prefer Dark as the primary since it makes it harder for enemies to hit you, but when you're constantly healing and recovering stamina at a faster rate you can solo a lot more effectively.

Dark's got that AOE end sucker and targeted HP recovery, too.

Willpower is a slightly weaker regen (most of it comes from the taunt aura) with an end recovery passive, plus actual resistance and defenses so it's not as vulnerable to burst damage.

I think it's... what, fire/willpower brutes that are the ultimate wreckers now? You can set up pretty much any power selection on every AT but defenders/controllers and solo at a healthy fraction of max, and certain fender/troller builds can also spit out the damage.

(Just make sure and make room for Aid Self if you don't have any powers that heal you. Makes downtime vanish.)

[Creole Ned]

In broad terms, the best soloists (combining safety and speed) are scrappers and brutes. Masterminds are also good, though they have some setup time (reduced a bit with the all-in-one upgrades for henchmen now).

Personally, I find the balanced approach of scrappers makes for dull play. There's essentially never any risk when soloing. I prefer blasters for the big damage combined with the relative squishiness of the AT. Plus you just get more variety in most powersets with a mix of melee and ranged attacks (and the occasional pet or gadget).

And in Issue 16 you'll be able to have every blast colored lime green (http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/game_updates/issue_16/issue_16_overview.html).

[Wholly Schmidt]

I think I'm going for a blaster, based on the concept for the character I dreamed up last night. Appreciate the tips though.

Is there an estimated date for I16 yet? I can't really remember how long it used to be between announcing them and releasing them.

[Creole Ned]

There's a post on the official forum suggesting it's going to the test server after ComicCon wraps up, so assuming nothing blows up it'll probably be a few months at least before it goes live. End of September would be an optimist's bet.

[drake113]

No estimated date (but then again, there never really is), but they're supposed to be starting up the closed beta pretty soon, and that usually means live in 4-6 weeks. Obviously, it depends on complexity of the issue, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't live by September, if for no other reason than to steal the "Unlike CoX, you can customize your powers" bullet-point from Champions Online.

[Brian Rucker]

Still at it. My RP's pretty much dried up as I'm stuck, mentally at least, in grindlock. I suppose I could powerlevel with the AE boss farms but I like soloing right now. I do join up with PUGs doing radio missions or storyarcs sometimes though.

Main character is Cornelius Harm, a rather skinny fellow in a suit, who wields dual broadswords. He's so understated it makes him an unlikely tanker. Well, his whole build makes him an unlikely tanker with dual/dark. He was ass to level, constantly sucking endurance, with all the aura toggles from Dark Armor and the fast attacks of Dual Blades but now he's in his mid-40's most of those issues have gone away after a scranker version rebuild. Fewer toggles, more focus on the blades, and less with the secondary pools.

He's not a great tank unless he's dealing with Psionics or Dark Energy but he's far tougher than the average scrapper while, with Dual Blades, only doing slightly less damage.

What Harm is, is fun to watch. The animations for dual blades are almost hypnotic once you get into your groove. With his improved accuracy he hardly ever misses and can handle just about anything short of AVs or really tough EBs that come up in solo play with Oppressive Gloom stunning minions into passivity and Dual Blades juggling bosses who almost never get a shot in if you time it right.

Once I get the cash for IO sets, to manage endurance better, I'll be able to run some more toggles and get him back into more of a tanker role but for now he's good fun and handy to have around.

[Mordrak]

Wow, you stuck with a character?!? Heh. The prices must be totally insane by now. Inflation due to AE seemed to be pretty hard by other people's accounts while I was playing.

[Wholly Schmidt]

What's AE? Inflation? Prices? Huh? You mean of enhancements?

[Mordrak]

What's AE? Inflation? Prices? Huh? You mean of enhancements?

Architect Entertainment. It's the in game fictional company that runs the Mission Architect system. People (at least when I last played) were grinding out user generated missions, which at the time could make people lots of influence (money). That influence would then inflate the prices of items in the auction house (blackmarket or westinghouse). I don't know what the current state is though, just what people were complaining about when I left.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Ah, thanks. AE is all alien to me at this point.

[AndrewM]

I started playing again a few weeks ago. They don't seem to quite have the AE issues under control. A friend of mine said he got 20 levels in 90 minutes, just sitting in an instance while higher level people demolished monsters. Very odd.

AE missions are nice because you don't have to run all over the place. It is all fightin'.

[Brian Rucker]

Everything is crazy expensive. People making gobs of influence from AE and then buying up tons of salvage for IO Enhancements. That said, I make pretty good coin from selling common salvage that folks don't get from AE missions. Not enough, by a longshot, and again I'd probably better off in an AE farm situation aside from the fact I just don't like them.

However, if I ever decide to level another character to 50 it will have to be through AE. The old fashioned way, while not nearly as painful as it used to be, isn't so much fun you really want to do it more than once.