Lionheart: Who has it?

[Jason McCullough]

Tyjenks?

[quatoria]

Can anyone who has followed the development of Lionheart clue me in on what in the world made the developers decide to make it purely real time, without even the ability to give orders while paused? It seems like such a bogglingly awful decision to me, and utterly destroyed any interest I had in the game. So, naturally, I'm curious as to what could possibly have motivated it.

[awdougherty]

I heard the developers said they wanted to make a real time game and by damn that was just what they were going to do. When the demo came out, people went nuts about this over on the black isle lionheart boards. This one thing would add so much to Lionheart.

[John Reynolds]

http://www.gamespy.com/previews/august03/templeofeepc/

I've lost all interest in Lionheart due to that demo.

[olaf]

I have it.

I hated the demo because of the combat. The full is a little better. Dont get me wrong the combat still is laughably shitty, but there is other stuff to do, and combat definitely doesnt seem to be the focus of the game early on. In fact you can avoid a lot of it with Diplomacy or Sneak.

The game's strength is the setting/premise. If that intrigues you, then there is a good chance you will like it. If it doesnt, then stay away as its a really bad RPG for 2003 when you set aside what makes it different from most.

As far as why the decision was made to not allow you to target enemies...no one knows. You cant get a straight answer from reflexive, thats for sure. I think I read something like 'we like RTS so we wanted to make an action-RPG. blah blah blah' I aint buying that though. Keep in mind that while paused you can drink potions, mem spells, and switch out gear/armor. So, given that, I dont think there is a valid reason why you cant target enemies.

The game has some glaring omissions for a 2003 A-list (well, maybe not) title. The automap is very bad. It doesnt notate anything for you. You cant notate it. Nor can you select a destination on it. Whee! Why is it here? Not sure.

The only gameplay settings to configure are volume and gamma correction. Err. Its a definitely a pet peeve of mine when I cant adjust cursor and scroll speeds. Grr. You cant even remap hotkeys. Thats almost ok though, as they dont even tell you what they are. The manual mentions a quick reference card, but there isnt one. F1 in game brings up a list of some hotkeys, but not all.

The res is locked at 800x600, officially anyway. The animation and spell effects are poor also. Diablo2:LOD is a much more visually appealing game and its how old? And Blizzard aims sys reqs low for battle.net purposes, dont they?

You cant overwrite save games either.

...

It shows that this was this team's first RPG. They dont seem to have played many of them either.

olaf

edit: It doesnt look good for a patch either. A Reflexive guy posted some BS after the demo was released. It sounded to me like Interplay didnt pay them for a patch, and wasnt going to.

[Jack]

It shows that this was this team's first RPG. They dont seem to have played many of them either.

Not knocking your statement, but the fact it's their first RPG shouldn't be an excuse. There is a lot of precedent out there for what RPG fans expect.


edit: It doesnt look good for a patch either. A Reflexive guy posted some BS after the demo was released. It sounded to me like Interplay didnt pay them for a patch, and wasnt going to.

Yeah, I got the idea they were being defensive about the RT combat thing. Maybe it's just their way of saying, "Our hands are tied." Too bad. I like the setting, but I kinda need a decent game in the mix too.

Based on your post, it might be better for me to wait for this one to hit the bargain racks... or hold out hope that a patch will someday come.

[Tyjenks]

Tyjenks?

:lol: Nope. Luckily there was decent discussion about it here so I have stayed away. Plus the demo was lacking as described ad nauseum here at Qt3. If a game does not grab me and/or a developer cannot work that fun into a demo, I am going to try not to waste my time.

That said, I have been playing the hell out of the Northland/Cultures III demo and I do not know why, but it has grabbed me and won't let go.

When does Temple of Elemental Evil come out again? October?

[PeterGinsberg]

http://www.gamespy.com/previews/august03/templeofeepc/

Ooh, I hadn't heard about the iron man mode. As an longtime nethack player, it's going to be pretty tempting to try that on my first run through.

[xahlt]

When does Temple of Elemental Evil come out again? October?

September 16th, officially, but from the latest Gamespy preview mentioning a few crash bugs and incomplete dialogs, I wouldn't be surprised if it got pushed a bit - considering it needs to go gold about today. Hard to know how old their copy is, though.

Installing Lionheart now despite my misgivings....

[olaf]

The end of that Gamespy preview says its supposed to ship in October.

olaf

[TheWombat]

So I finally get around to downloading the demo.

I dunno. It looks pretty nice visually, even with the low res and the dorky animation. But the combat system.... Is there a way to quickly do the melee/ranged weapon swap, or do you have to go to your inventory to do the deed? Is there a setting so that if some bozo runs out of the shadows and starts whaling on you, you will automagically fight back, or do you have to be in frenzied click-o-matic mode all the time?

I'm kinda intrigued, in a sort of "if Best Buy has it this weekend for cheap maybe" sort of way. But that's about the level of my enchantment right now.

[Robert Sharp]

I can't recommend enough trying the demo to this game before buying it. I had it preordered, I was so sure it would be good. I like the setting/theme a lot. I may still get it when it comes way down in price. But the combat system and even the character development system is just very bad. If you thought Arcanum's system was bad, you ain't seen nothin!

[TheWombat]

I actually like Arcanum's system. In fact, I'm playing that game through again now (though I never actually finished it the first time). At least I can have turn based combat there :D

[Jason McCullough]

Arcanum was ok; the plot was offbeat and amusing, but the engine stunk. I wouldn't have bought it if I knew what it was actually like, though.

[TheWombat]

I don't think the engine is _that_ bad, really. It's not great, true, and while I like the style of the art the execution is sometimes clunky. The game does have some internal balance issues with character classes and abilities, easily overcome by simply not taking advantage of the exploits. I agree the game is too much "let's put in everything we ever wanted in an RPG" to be a true classic, but as an exercise in wretched excess it's pretty nifty.

[Jason McCullough]

I see you didn't suffer from the "scrolling takes 20 minutes on a high-end video card" design flaw.

[triggercut]

I've got the full version and have been playing quite a bit today.

Before I give my impressions, a few things:

1. Didn't play the demo a bit, but it did prejudice me that this was going to be pretty horrible and unplayable.

2. I likes me some rpg action, but not blindly so; for instance, I sure as hell didn't enjoy Pool Of Radiance and while I thought Arcanum was all right at the beginning, I lost interest in that title pretty quickly too.

Now then.

Lionheart is actually a pretty solid game, at least so far. Some things I like:

1. Tons of spoken dialogue. Tons of it. And the voice acting is superb so far.

2. The game is very pretty, even at 8x6. It looks better than Divine Divinity or Icewind Dale II, to name two other rpg's.

3. Character "individuality" seems fantastic. With the ability to throw points into attributes, skills, and perks, and with four races that play completely differently, the sky's the limit here.

4. Gameplay seems to support lots of different ways of playing. You can be a stealthing thief, a fast-talking conman, a bolt-throwing magic user, a total tank...whatever. There are things to do that allow you to capitalize on playing a separate and unique character type.

5. Combat you say? It isn't all that bad. I've heard elsewhere that they really slowed the mobs down from the demo. In the few scraps I've been in, I've had no problems. Plus, you can script your character's actions, and he's the only one you "control"--follower NPC's do their own thing, baby.

6. So far, the story seems like it'll be fantastic. Lots and lots of reading and dialogue, but it's *interesting*, well-written stuff that pulls you into the game and story. Very reminiscent of, dare I say, Torment?

Hey, I don't know that this won't be a clunker...but the first 3 hours have been a lot of fun to play. Seems like a lot of folks formed an opinion about this game based on a clunky demo, and on prejudices like their hatred of anything realtime or 800x600 resolution. Given a chance to be what it'll be, Lionheart seems like a pretty neat game so far.

[Tyjenks]

Hey, I don't know that this won't be a clunker...but the first 3 hours have been a lot of fun to play. Seems like a lot of folks formed an opinion about this game based on a clunky demo, and on prejudices like their hatred of anything realtime or 800x600 resolution. Given a chance to be what it'll be, Lionheart seems like a pretty neat game so far.

Nice set-up and feedback. As I asked in one of the other 12 Lionheart threads, why on Earth would they rush out a poor demo and risk the negative buzz? Either put out a demo representative of the final version or wait until after the game has been out as many other developers do.

[Brad Grenz]

Word on the street was the publisher wanted a demo and the developers were obliged to produce one shortly. Also sounds like the publisher doesn't want to cut loose any cash to develop a patch at this points so they aren't even working on one now.

That said I decided to give the game a shot. I had to stand around looking pathetic at best buy for like half an hour before I could get some help from an employee who, to his credit, went in back and rummaged through boxes to find me a copy. They hadn't made it to the shelf yet. I've got it installed, but I haven't started playing yet. And I've kinda got my fingers crossed that it'll be in the sales flyers in the next couple weeks so I can gets me some price adjust action!

[triggercut]

That I can't answer. There are some head-scratchers here, too. It isn't all good:

1. Very little user customizability (is that even a frickin' word?) The config options are basically gamma controls and sound volume. That's it. There may be a way to remap keys, but I can't figure it out...(not that it matters too much, keys do what you'd think they'd do, like "i" opens your inventory screen, "m" opens the map screen, etc.)

2. You can't put notes on the map. Can make finding quest NPC's a bit of a hassle sometimes.

3. At least one combatant can be a bitch because they're so damn fast, and that's the wolves. Every other mob seems to move fairly normally, tho.

[curst]

If I have a 550mhz P3 processor, will I be able to play this game at least decently well?

I'm at the point where I have to ask this of every new computer game because some titles work fine even though I technically don't meet the min. requirements (Freelancer, Silent Hill 2, GTA:VC, Rise Of Nations), whereas others do not (Giants *still* sux0rs in terms of framerate, Planetside was unplayably slow, C&C Generals barely ran at all, WC3 would run great at times but suffer slowdown during the most hectic parts).

For what it's worth, I've read a LOT of people who played and disliked the demo turn around and say that the actual game is much more enjoyable. It's beginning to sound like Homeworld all over again.

[olaf]

1. Tons of spoken dialogue. Tons of it. And the voice acting is superb so far.
From just having played KOTOR, it falls down in this department. I will agree that the voice acting is good, but KOTOR was one of the best ever.


2. The game is very pretty, even at 8x6. It looks better than Divine Divinity or Icewind Dale II, to name two other rpg's.
Hmm. DD I will grant you. IWD2 though? I think its a toss up. Either way, not very lofty goals for a 2003 release. One of them is a euro game out of nowhere, the other is the last drop out of a thoroughly milked tit.


3. Character "individuality" seems fantastic. With the ability to throw points into attributes, skills, and perks, and with four races that play completely differently, the sky's the limit here.
I like this too. But after playing some more, it seems like even though there is a lot of ways you can build a character, the game plays one of three ways 1) You avoid combat 2) You melee or 3) You nuke/use a bow.


4. Gameplay seems to support lots of different ways of playing. You can be a stealthing thief, a fast-talking conman, a bolt-throwing magic user, a total tank...whatever. There are things to do that allow you to capitalize on playing a separate and unique character type.
See above.


5. Combat you say? It isn't all that bad. I've heard elsewhere that they really slowed the mobs down from the demo. In the few scraps I've been in, I've had no problems. Plus, you can script your character's actions, and he's the only one you "control"--follower NPC's do their own thing, baby.
Ugh I have to disagree. They didnt turn the speed down on anything that I can tell. I mean, only the wolves seem SUPER fast. But the humanoids arent exactly slow. In a twisty dungeon where they are completely invisible behind a wall (...), they are often on top of me before I know it. As for followers...just when I thought the combat couldnt get worse I got a follower. They simply attack whatever is in range. Uh, is that it?

It would help a lot if the res wasnt 800x600, there'd be a whole lot more real estate on the screen.


6. So far, the story seems like it'll be fantastic. Lots and lots of reading and dialogue, but it's *interesting*, well-written stuff that pulls you into the game and story. Very reminiscent of, dare I say, Torment?
I agree there is potential here.

olaf

[Brian Koontz]

If I have a 550mhz P3 processor, will I be able to play this game at least decently well?

{Holding my nose up in the air in geek snobbery at the foul stench emanating from curst}

{Boasting of my relatively beefed up and virile Athlon 1800+}

{Looking straight at curst while Pointing commandingly at the nearest computer dealer}

Cleanse your body and soul! Begone demon of low framerates and low detail settings!

[triggercut]

Olaf, you've been blasting this game since the demo came out here and on Gonegold. I dunno if someone from Black Isle or Interplay kicked sand in your face or fucked your girlfriend or what...but it's clear that you're doin' yer damnedest to grind an axe with a game that has some flaws, but is not nearly as bad as you describe.

[curst]

{Holding my nose up in the air in geek snobbery at the foul stench emanating from curst}

{Boasting of my relatively beefed up and virile Athlon 1800+}

{Looking straight at curst while Pointing commandingly at the nearest computer dealer}

Cleanse your body and soul! Begone demon of low framerates and low detail settings!

No.

[Midnight Son]

Okay, I'm putting in my comments...

It's not bad at all. I liken it to a cross between Divine Divinity and Planescape Torment. My character is level 6 now and still exploring Barcelona and area. I've run into a few beasties that kill me pretty quickly so I'll need to level up and come back later. (No Spoilers)

I've got about 10 open quests and 10 finished ones. The map issues are not that big a deal since the maps are never overwhelmingly chockful of places to go to. I'd like to annotate the maps, but it's not absolutely necessary in this game. Combat is simple but not overwhelming. I've been using sword and shield and doing good.


Semi-Spoilers:










I love meeting the historical persons: So far: Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Machiavelli, Cortes the Killer, the Duke of Parma.....

[Dirt]

No Lope de Vega? They always forget the Spainish playwrights.

Is it Single or Group?

[olaf]

Olaf, you've been blasting this game since the demo came out here and on Gonegold. I dunno if someone from Black Isle or Interplay kicked sand in your face or fucked your girlfriend or what...but it's clear that you're doin' yer damnedest to grind an axe with a game that has some flaws, but is not nearly as bad as you describe.
I post a lot period, on lots of boards, about lots of stuff. Its what I do at work while waiting for something to break. Its not like I have gone out of my way to rip this game.

As for how bad the game is, well thats subjective isnt it? Say what you want but the overall combat experience is fucking horrible and the game would have benefited greatly from what ought to be standard features in RPGs, but are strangely missing from a game published by one of the mainstays (BIS) in the genre.

olaf

[Brad Grenz]

I tried manually changing the resolution, but 1024x768 is so glitchy it's useless. The hud is locked to its screen position from the 800x600 res, and has trouble staying opaque. They really should have hacked it in to the game as it would better represent your character's view distance. At 800x600 enemies attack you before they even are on screen and you can technically see farther than the screen's edge.

I'm enjoying myself, at level 7 now. Slogged through the sewer system for a long time last night, though I never found who I was looking for. Right now I'm exploring the woods outside Barcelona looking for some Slavers.

Combat could have been better, though I don't think going turn base would be the answer. As it is you wade through hordes of enemies and if you went into turn based combat for each encounter dungeons would take forever. They seem to have been aiming for Diablo style action, but missed out a couple important interface refinements. Like selecting enemies is hard if they are obscured by trees or a wall, a highlighted outline and more precise cursor would have helped. Combat is just hard in general as well, and enemies scale with your level so it never gets easier. Companions seem awful fragile as well, and there's no way to equip them or manage their character progress or anything. I've gotten like 3 cannon fodder companions killed so far.


Semi-Spoilers:










I love meeting the historical persons: So far: Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Machiavelli, Cortes the Killer, the Duke of Parma.....

Machiavelli is a back stabber! I had Cervantes as a companion for a while until we killed Don Quixote together. Poor SOB was dueling shrubberies when I found him.

[triggercut]

Hmm...while I'll stand by my comments that "The first three hours are pretty fun!" pretty much after that, the ugly starts to reveal itself in this game. The combat becomes more and more frequent and unavoidable...and finally the numerous questionable design decisions in the game start to rear their ugly heads. I haven't encountered any, but I understand there are some pretty bad bugs later in the game; I also hear there's a memory leak or lag leak in multi-player...and still no word on a patch.

Yikes!

After a promising and downright fascinating start, Lionheart has become the game that answers the question: "What if Dungeon Siege didn't have neat graphics?"

[Sam Jones]

After a promising and downright fascinating start, Lionheart has become the game that answers the question: "What if Dungeon Siege didn't have neat graphics?"

The Lionheart forums at Interplay are getting a bit negative now. Lots of unanswered "So, how many towns are there? I mean, really." questions.

I think I'm going to give this one a miss and I passed on IWD2 as well. These aren't the sort of RPGs I want to see from BIS. The PS2 Fallout game also looks like a colossal fuckup.

[TheWombat]

Actually the PS2 game looks pretty good, in a Dark Alliance/co-op action sort of way. Which is one of the things I like in console games. But it certainly has little to please Fallout fans wanting a true RPG I guess.

[DrCrypt]

{Holding my nose up in the air in geek snobbery at the foul stench emanating from curst}

{Boasting of my relatively beefed up and virile Athlon 1800+}

{Looking straight at curst while Pointing commandingly at the nearest computer dealer}

Cleanse your body and soul! Begone demon of low framerates and low detail settings!
I'm sure curst doesn't actually live in his Mom's basement rent free. Or if he does live in his Mom's basement rent-free, he is not merely committed to a social life of dryly documenting the ways in which an ordinary Gucci handbag strap can instantly transform mammaries into missiles on the average prepubescent girl. Or if that IS his sole social agenda, his money is still being spent in some manner that is not exclusively devoted to keeping the Frito-Lay corporation and Verant Interactive financially solvent. So, in other words, his situation might not be totally analogous to yours, Brian.

The broad spectrum of constructive ways in which a psychologically healthy, multi-interested human male might choose to spend his money on reality itself (as opposed to electronically mimicking the reality that one has shut themselves in against) would be both wondrous and terrible for an shut-in mouth-breather like yourself to behold. If you ever opened the front door and stepped through... well, I can just hear you lisping through your cleft palate now: "My God! It's full of stars!"

[olaf]

Hmm...while I'll stand by my comments that "The first three hours are pretty fun!" pretty much after that, the ugly starts to reveal itself in this game. The combat becomes more and more frequent and unavoidable...and finally the numerous questionable design decisions in the game start to rear their ugly heads. I haven't encountered any, but I understand there are some pretty bad bugs later in the game; I also hear there's a memory leak or lag leak in multi-player...and still no word on a patch.

Yikes!

After a promising and downright fascinating start, Lionheart has become the game that answers the question: "What if Dungeon Siege didn't have neat graphics?"

I feel like I should say something here.

olaf