Critically acclaimed game that you hated

[SpoofyChop]

This one is obvious for me:

Freelancer

Although I wouldn't exactly say it was acclaimed.

Maybe I should say:

Morrowind

Although I wouldn't exactly say that I hated it.

Hmmm...perhaps:

Civilization III!
Sim City 4!

Utter crap...both of em.

[Doug Erickson]

Where do I start?

Xenogears/Xenosaga, Shenmue 1/2, Metal Gear Solid 2, any Resident Evil title: the list goes on and on.

[Matthew Gallant]

For Charles: Max Payne.

[tromik]

Deus Ex, Homeworld, Quake 3. Let the beatings begin!

It's not so much that I hate them as much as it is that I just can't get into them, and then I wonder why. Because, they are critically acclaimed after all. Then I hate that I bought them. I stare at them. This turns into a "I hate that game" feeling, but truthfully, I haven't gone far enough into the games to hate them.

[Dave Long]

For Charles: Max Payne.

I'm with you there. Pure garbage.

--Dave

[Charles]

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

[Jim Preston]

Metroid Prime. Complicated button presses just to look around, plenty of reading uninteresting planetary history, tedious backtracking, respawning nuisance monsters, the never-justifiable jumping puzzles in a 3D world. One of the most overrated games in recent memory.

[Dave Long]

You, sir, have no taste. :twisted:

--Dave

[Rywill]

Starcraft
Age of Empires II
Crimson Skies (neat gameworld concept, most boring game I've played in ages)
Syberia (terrible!)
Galactic Civilizations

[Sharpe]

Starcraft


SACRILEGE!!!!

May the zerg-fleas of a thousand hydralisks descend upon your environment dome. Or something.

For me it was Black and White - massive reviews, so little quality. What a boring and clumsy piece of crap. A classic example of massive overhype and failing to deliver.

Dan

[christopher]

Myth: I couldn't control the camera very well, and it seemed like in every mission I was outnumbered and had to depend on those dwarf guys who threw the bombs to even things out. Most of the time, they just blew themselves or my guys up. Not fun.

Black and White: How did this get good reviews? Not just good reviews, but "this game is revolutionary!" reviews? Did anyone who reviewed this acutally make it to the last level? I hated hearing the villagers whine, I hated the lack of wood, I hated just about all the village management crap. And the creature training wasn't good enough to compensate.

[Denice Cook]

Syberia (terrible!)


You and I were born under the same adventure-gaming star, Rywill, I swear it. :lol:

It's interesting to see threads about Syberia develop on adventure gaming forums, because few games outside of Myst have held such a love/hate relationship with adventure gamers, despite critical acclaim.

It sure was beautiful, but all of the useless hotspots where either nothing happened whatsoever or Kate just said "I don't need to go there" over and over started to really get to me. It was quite a large, empty world, and Kate's lack of interaction with it left me cold. Too many of the puzzles were of the boring, lever-pulling variety, too... I'm not big on slow, depressing stories, though, and Kate didn't have much personality overall, so I think these things also detracted from the game for me...

*runs and hides her adventure-gaming head in shame*

[Warlord of Mars]

Descent

[Russ]

Descent? Surely you're trolling.

For me, it's Black & White, Europa Universalis II, and Civ 3. Much of my hatred stems from games that start out fun but then turn to unbearable tedium. Europa Universalis II, though, sucked right from the beginning.

[Matt Perkins]

Morrowind: A huge game without interactivity. bleh.

[Warlord of Mars]

Descent? Surely you're trolling.

Oh, rest assured, I am not.

My friends loved the game. I was bored with it. I found myself preferring Doom and Quake to Descent every freakin' time.

[DaveC]

Don't hate, but I definitely don't like any FF games I have played.

[BDGE]

Morrowind and Mario Sunshine are likely the most recent candidates I would include. Not that I hated them per say, just found them rather dull.

[bago]

If you're going to bash a zelda game, bash majora's mask. Talk about ruinating a good game.

[Jonathan Blow]

The Longest Journey. (A bunch of random, unmotivated puzzles -- it's basically an unending series of illustrations of all that has been wrong with post-Infocom adventure games, so why do people like it?)

Morrowind. (Lame, dead world that couldn't hold a candle to Gothic. Zero gameplay, especially with regard to fighting. Frequent loading. Absolutely no je ne sais quoi.)

[BDGE]

Majora's Mask is one of my personal favorites in the entire near 2 decade run. :?

[Jakub]

Civ III, Black & White...

[Jack]

Dungeon Siege -- the only game you could sleep through!
Quake -- the mighty marine could jump only six inches and sounded like he was pinching a loaf.
Quake III -- was this really necessary?
Black and White -- managed to be both dull and annoying.
Descent -- blasphemy, I know. It was a long time ago and I tried it for about one minute. It annoyed the hell out of me.
MOO3 -- oh, wait. Wrong list. This one sucked loud enough for everyone to hear.

[Tim Partlett]

Super Mario 64.

[Warlord of Mars]

Don't hate, but I definitely don't like any FF games I have played.

Thanks for reminding me. I didn't like any of them after VII.

[christopher]

I'm going to add a whole slew of first person perspective rpgs. Lands of Lore, Eye of the Beholder, Might and Magic, even Betrayal at Krondor (gasp!). The fact that I didn't like that last one made we wonder if I just didn't like rpgs. But I thought Ultima Underworld was great. I'm not sure why this is, but I think the first person interface where you move around using those arrow buttons really bugs me. Ultima Underworld got rid of that, and I really enjoyed it.

On the other hand, I hated Daggerfall (no arrow buttons either), and will probably never even try Morrowind because of that. But I think it's more because I couldn't figure where I was supposed to go or what I was supposed to be doing, rather than the interface.

[Charles]

Super Mario 64.

Me too. I detest these 3d mario impostors.

[Rywill]

It sure was beautiful, but all of the useless hotspots where either nothing happened whatsoever or Kate just said "I don't need to go there" over and over started to really get to me.
That sums it up in a nutshell. The game was pretty, and the idea was somewhat interesting, but it was:

A) SLOW. The stupid animation system meant that it took forever to get Kate to go anywhere. And the story wasn't exactly a page-turner, either.

B) Annoying. If you're going to make a linear adventure, do me the courtesy of not littering every fucking motherless screen with false doors.

C) Spoon-fed. It featured one of the worst examples of "click 'em all" conversation trees I've ever seen. I HATE that. "Our conversations are interactive! It's totally up to you whether you ask about the retarded boy first, or about his father first!" Ugh.

And allow me to add The Longest Journey to my list, too. Thanks for the reminder, Jonathan. Pretty, great world concept, but way too linear and with too many show-stopping puzzles that had no logical solution. I was about ready to melt down the CD when I finally figured out the use-the-mechanical-monkey-as-a-police-officer puzzle.

[Rywill]

Starcraft


SACRILEGE!!!!
I may have just waited too long on this one. I picked up the battle chest (or whatever) version two years ago, played the first few missions, and was like "WTF was everyone so excited about? This kind of sucks."

[Kyle Wilson]

Morrowind. I think I payed $25 for each hour I actually played Morrowind.

[Ranulf]

Civ3: Totally a love/hate relationship with this game, as I actually reinstalled it recently. It had some great improvements but a ton of negative changes (wonders changes sucked, armies sucked, no stacking of units until a patch, the list goes on..). They obviously didnt beta test the unit balance, it was buggy (thankfully not game stoppingly buggy) and didnt really get a decent editor until the travesty that was the Play the world expansion came out. I mean, civ2's editor did more at its release than 3's did. Don't even mention the multiplayer which is still slow/buggy but hey, at least its stable now. So, of course the second expansion will contain both new stuff and PTW on one disc thus screwing over anyone who bought PTW in the first place.


Fallout- I didnt hate it but I could never get very far into it before losing interest.

Halflife: Everything up to the start of the alien levels was pretty good but the rest, meh. Its not as great as everyone says. The only reason it lasted online was because of the mods.

[David]

There's only two games I'm actually bitter about buying.

Simcity4. I'm still in complete disbelief about how horribly tedious Maxis managed to make the game.

Black and White.

[Supertanker]

Deus Ex.
Morrowind.
All RTS games.

[Greg417]

Warcraft 3. Easily worse than Warcraft 2, which I loved. Age of Mythology made the leap into 3D, and still retained the "I can see the battlefield" aspect of the AOEs.

Capcom vs. SNK 2. I loved the Street Fighter games, even that 3D one for the Playstation. But I don't know where Capcom gets the cajones to release a game that mixes sprites from 1999 with sprites from 1993. That alone made me lose respect for the developers. They should've at least spent some time cleaning up the graphics so that older characters somewhat looked the part.

[Reeko]

Fallout- I didnt hate it but I could never get very far into it before losing interest.

Ditto.

I have the same problem with Planescape:Torment.

[MattKeil]

Starcraft. Liked Warcraft II. Liked Warcraft III. Hated Starcraft. Not even too sure why. Maybe for the same reasons Alpha Centauri didn't grab me like Civ2 did - I just don't identify well with the sci-fi elements as compared to the fantasy/historical stuff. I like my strategy with both feet on the proverbial ground, I guess.

Final Fantasy VII. Hell, I flat out despise this one. Its (entirely hype-driven) success essentially ruined console RPGs for years, and the damage is only now being slowly repaired. Every Japanese RPG developer should be locked in a room and forced to play KotOR over and over again until they get the point.

Final Fantasy X, for similar reasons as VII. FFX commits the additional crime of being boring as all hell. It remains the only FF game I haven't finished. Tidus is perhaps the least likeable protagonist in RPG history. What's with the "I like mittens!" look on his face on the cover?

Jedi Outcast. Good God, I will never understand why everyone and their brother fell all over themselves to ejaculate on this game. As if the inane Force power progression and painfully sloppy lightsaber combat wasn't enough, the level design is so poor as to give me fits. Massive potential here, but only if they can get past the "switch/jump puzzles TO INFINITY" level design and work up a combat system that's more complex than two morons circle strafing and waving sabers around until someone falls over dead.

Super Mario Sunshine bored me to tears after about two levels, but as I recall it wasn't quite universally praised.

And finally, Quake III. So fast and furious as to be mindless. Give me UT any day of the week.

~MJK

[Lavoris]

Not in any particular order:

Max Payne. Just to make myself feel better, let me be clear: THIS GAME SUCKED ASS. To me, this was the third-person shooter equivalent of jumping puzzles. Especially running through the fire. What a bunch of BS.

The Sims. Ho-lee crap, Maxis found a way to digitize the obvious and put it in a box. More power to 'em. This game holds the record for "gave it away the fastest". (The next day.)

Deus Ex. I really, really wanted to like this one. No, really.

Baldur's Gate II. Start quest. Get ass kicked. Repeat until game is uninstalled. Is this blasphemy? Probably.

[malphigian]

I'd be interested to know *when* people played these games, as I think that can have a fairly significant effect on your tolerance for dated graphics, interface issues, etc.

e.g. If I played half-life now for the first time, having played a handful of great FPSs that have been influenced by it and built on its successful features, I don't think I would be nearly as blown away as I was at the time.

[Incendiary Lemon]

Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast (watch the series regress)
Civ3 (none of the enjoyment I got out of smac or civ2)
Morrowind (I played gothic first - mechanics it seemed only as good as if not slightly dumbed down from daggerfall)

[mtkafka]

Civ 3 just didn't mix well with me compared to Civ 2 and SMAC and CTP2. Just couldn't get into it.

Europa Universalis was way too dull to deserve all the acclaim it got, imo.

Medal of Honor to me is one of the most generic shooters, though it has excellent sound effects.

And Il-2 really is kinda boring ... despite the great physics/graphics and whatnut.

etc

[Gaming-Module]

Fallout Tactics: The fact that it isn't an RPG doesn't earn this game my ire, but the fact that it is just a cheap game. The enemies are cheap, the weapons are cheap and the exploits are REALLY CHEAP. I worked my way through half of this game by locating enemies, sneaking to within grenade throwing range and blind tossing nades from my hidden position until the enemy was dead. Since my guy was hidden, the AI never came looking for me. It just stood there in the same spot waiting for the coup de nade to come a flying. Once you start fighting the robots the game becomes plain ole frustrating, at which point I quit.

Commandos 2: This game was pretty heavily praised in the gaming presss and has a loyal following, but it is a love or hate kinda game. I just so happen to hate it. I didn't even get past the tutorial mission. If I can't figure out the fucking tutorial, I do not deserve to play the rest of the game obviously. So I did C2 a favor and uninstalled and shelved it. Now all I need to do is sell it.

America's Army: Retch. This game is pure, unadulterated ass. The netcode is weak, the graphics are fugly, the necissity to train for multiplayer is idiotic and the fact that making a little noob mistake like killing a teammate gets you banned from playing...good, your game sucked anyway.

[tromik]

Medal of Honor to me is one of the most generic shooters, though it has excellent sound effects.

I completely agree with you. It was boring, it was on rails, it was frustrating (Sniper Town), and it was easy to figure out a lot of the patterns (Omaha beach).

I also hated Return to Castle Wolfenstein, thought the MP was fun.

[Jason Becker]

The Sims. Yes I'm the one person out of the tem million who bought the game and didn't like it.

First person RPG's like M&M VI and Wizardry 8. Way way WAAAAAY to many encounters for a TB system. Ohh look go over a hill and see 100 orcs I have to slog my way through for the next 20 minutes...yaaay. Also I just don't like the FP view for a group RPG game. Am I a party of adventurers or some weird multi-headed fighter/magic user/thief cleric thing.

[Jason Becker]

The Sims. Yes I'm the one person out of the ten million who bought the game that didn't like it.

First person RPG's like M&M VI and Wizardry 8. Way way WAAAAAY to many encounters for a TB system. Ohh look go over a hill and see 100 orcs I have to slog my way through for the next 20 minutes...yaaay. Also I just don't like the FP view for a group RPG game. Am I a party of adventurers or some weird multi-headed fighter/magic user/thief cleric thing.

[krayzkrok]

Apart from an excuse to have a good bitch (bring 'em on), this thread only really serves to tell us that gaming tastes are nearly as variable as music tastes (ok, I exaggerate).

But what the hell, here's my whine. I despise almost any WW2 themed FPS in recent memory. Not because they're bad, but because I have no desire to play a game set in that world anymore. Can't we innovate?

[RightWrong]

Descent. Booooooooooooring.

The Sims. Boring after one week.

The Warlords: Battlecry series generally got decent reviews, 80% even. It sucks ass. Terrible cinematics, bland, empty maps, boring factions.

SimCity 4 just doesn't draw me in.... while everyone seemed to applaud the "regions" feature, I hated it. So all my cities are now smaller, and anyone with a brain will realize they can get $400,000 for a single new city by just building in the corners of four small regions? No challenge.

I enjoyed Warcraft 3, but it has to be the most disappointing game ever. The (original) campaign was the worst compared to Starcraft or WC2, and game mechanics just never work out right. It has been terribly imbalanced at times, and team games have never been that fun. They never last beyond the first battle, you don't even see the occasional "3v5 join" types because, well, no matter how good you are you can't beat greater numbers. Sadly, the game is still far and above most RTS's. Terrible genre.

[Guido Jones]

Descent - I loved Doom and Duke3d, hated this game with a passion

Warcraft III - War 2 was not only more fun, but more balanced.

[cornfuzed]

Add another vote for The Sims. I didn't exactly hate it, but after a couple days I realized I'd rather watch paint dry than play it any longer.

[BobFunk]

Tiberian Sun

It was so hyped, spots on MTV, ads on all the busses in Copenhagen and got a good deal of really good reviews, and it was so inferior to the best RTS games at the time.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Woot! Someone's mentioned one of my games as over-rated! Not saying which though - but, uhm, I kind of agree. :-)

My most overrated list:

Deus Ex - worst first level ever.
Jak and Daxter - boredom stretched wide.
Quake II - 1 and 3 were genius, this was a shoddy expansion pack.
Half-Life single player - just horrid. Multiplayer was a lot of fun though.

[Lokust]

Morrowind, NWN, Dungeon Siege, Starcraft, Flying Heroes, Shadow Watch... :P

[John Reynolds]

For me it's a toss-up between Black & White, NWN, and Half-life.

[Kalle]

Sim City 3000 - I loved SC2000. Don't know what they did with the sequel, but it bored the hell out of me.

[Brian3DGPU]

Strange how tastes vary...

Deus Ex - Got two levels in and it lost me...
Civ3 - Loved SMAC...
NWN Single Player - But SoU is 180 turn around...great fun
Fallout - Tedious for me

[graller]

NWN's new expansion has me playing it and player modules a year after release..loving it now.

Black & White
Warcraft 2

[Scott Warner]

I'll chime in with a lot of you and say Morrowind.

I'm a role playing fan who loves getting dropped in large-scale worlds, but even that wasn't enough for me here (although I certainly tried to enjoy it!)

[VegasRobb]

I don't actually hate these, they just ended up being really disappointing and lifeless.

Warcraft 3
GalCiv
Entrepreneur
DungeonKeeper
Unreal / Unreal Tournament

I just fell victim to the hype machine.

[awdougherty]

Well, I haven't really ever hated a game, but here are some I just didn't dig that the whole world tells me I should.

Counterstrike (I prefer Team Fortress a LOT more)
Single Player Operation Flashpoint (the AI just kills this game for me)
Quake III
Civ III (vastly prefer Civ 2)
Warcraft III (most real time strategy games actually)
Max Payne. Found the controls sloppy and the story cool and boring at the same time.
Madden football games - not sure why, but I actually had a lot more fun with NFL Fever and Sega series
Tony Hawk 3 (although I really dug 2 and 4)
Close Combat series (much prefer Combat Mission series)
Planescape:Torment - don't kill me yet. I enjoyed the effort gone into the dialogue system and all of the non-combat options, but it felt more like an adventure game to me when I was looking for an RPG. Everyone puts this near the top of their "just creamed myself" awesome list... I liked it but it didn't floor me like it did for others (the Fallout series, on the other hand, did floor me).

Others mentioned on this thread... Freelancer I really dug for what it was but I wish it could have offered more. But I did like it so I won't include it specifically. Morrowind is another, I like it in concept and would probably really love it if I had the time to delve into every aspect of that game - but who has that much time?

One last special mention has to go out to Star Wars:KOTOR. I'm enjoying it but it's not blowing me away yet and it feels just like every other Bioware game I've played.

EDIT: Just remembered NOLF, that one I actually didn't care for too much. HALO also has a weird spot. At times, simply awesome, but the sheer repetitiveness of some of the levels really hurt the overall presentation. The fact that there may not be co-op play in the PC version (is that still true) is a travesty.

[Chris Nahr]

NOLF, Dungeon Siege & Keeper, most shooters and everything made by Bioware (excepting KOTOR which I haven't played yet).

[Xaroc]

First I completely disagree with about 90% of what people have mentioned but that is to be expected when things like Half-Life!?!? are in the list.

My most overrated:

StarCraft, it blew chunks especially after playing TA it was amazing how far behind the curve a game that comes out in the same time frame can be. Played it two or three times and was like why am I bothering? The fact that a gazillion people still play it is mind boggling to me.

-- Xaroc

[runesword forger]

Bioware's various Infinity Engine games. I admire the professionalism in them, the attention to detail right down to the packaging, but I just couldn't get into any of them for long. They didn't hook me.

I don't hate them, though. This has just got to be a case where my tastes are out of the mainstream.

The only game with great reviews that I came close to hating was Black & White, but I should have known better. I'm not much into god games, but B&W was getting this press as the 2nd coming, so I tried it.

[awdougherty]

One other thing to add, Ultima 6 and 7. I loved the story and world interaction in 7 and that's why I still rank it as one of my favorites, but the combat became dumb. I could basically run through the entire game and barely fight. I never really raised any levels and always found it annoying when I had to actually throw down.

Ultima 6, same basic thing. Also sometimes it felt like they were a little desperate to fill the game with puzzles to get to the ending.

[JP]

/me pours on the Haterade(tm):

1) Medal of Honor: Allied Assault (read a splendid crit of its design here (http://prairiearts.com/Asof/as_of.htm))

2) Every Raven Software game after Heretic 2 (the singleplayer components of 'em at least).

3) Counter-Strike. Not only did it single-handedly suck every last fucking ounce of creativity and altruism out of the mod community (let's make a RAEALISITIC mod and get rich!), it's a godawful piece of muddling-through game design. It purports to be a team-based, skill-based game but firefights are largely a matter of luck + mastering very simple techniques. Team tactics are only useful because individuals are rendered powerless by factors beyond their control. Its mechanics reward players to play conservative and uninteresting matches. Useless, broken rich-get-richer money system. I really could go on for hours.

4) It can't be said enough: Max Payne. Pure trash, shining example of what Costikyan calls "bullet-point innovation", and you fuckheads gave them enough money to sell the IP for multi-zillions.

[Jason McCullough]

Half-Life, of course. Headcrabs droppiing out of the ceiling onto you OVER AND OVER isn't fun, people. Hey look, all the monsters are set to teleport in one step behind me!

That's ok, I love the game, because it HAS TEH TALKING PEOPLE MAKING WITTICISMS!!!?!?!?!$##$#$!

[Robert Sharp]

Wow. I didn't know there was anyone that hated Half-Life. That was among the best I ever played, and certainly the best FPS.

Anyway, my console game is Metal Gear Solid...the whole series. I just don't get it. I've tried, and I hate it. I also haven't really liked any FF games since FFVII

My PC games are Starcraft (never got into it), Kohan (it was OK, but not great), Dungeon Seige (terrible game), and NWNs. There are plenty of others, but that's the short list.

It's funny to read through these posts though. People are mentioning games that I have loved, or at least very much enjoyed, as some of the worst games they have played. Some I understand (I love Morrowind, but I can see why people wouldn't), but others seem just odd to me. To not like the Infinity Engine games or Half-Life just seems really odd. But I do find the whole discussion interesting.

[Boss]

Some of the posts are probably an overcorrection of the market's love for some of these titles. One of the traits of Qt3 for some time now is how many folks refuse to acknowledge a game's quality when the market loves it. It's far cooler to say something that's popular sucks major ass.

[Doug Erickson]

I didn't really like Half-Life, either, for the reasons Jason stated: headcrabs dropping out of nowhere, teleporting enemies, all of Xen. The best bit was in the middle, when you fought human enemies.

Narrative in games often bores me, although I'll acknowledge that Half-Life's approach was the most innovative that I'd seen at the time. I'm really a snob about game plots and dialogue - if it's not as good as the average movie or book, why bother? Sadly, most narrative in the average game is quite comparable to the worst in cinema and literature, and in many cases, falls far, far below even that embarrassing level.

[Jupiter Jones]

Just a few of the games I paid $50.00 or so dollars for that "everyone" loved, that I felt robbed and cheated for buying:

Sim City 3000
The Sims
Diablo
All "Command And Conquer" games beyong the first one
Wing Commander III
Theme Park
Any Ultima except Ultima IV
Jedi Knight II
Dungeon Siege
Icewind Dale II
Baldur's Gate
Final Fantasy VII
Golden Sun (GBA)

[Bub, Andrew]

Starcraft. Liked Warcraft II. Liked Warcraft III. Hated Starcraft. Not even too sure why. Maybe for the same reasons Alpha Centauri didn't grab me like Civ2 did - I just don't identify well with the sci-fi elements as compared to the fantasy/historical stuff. I like my strategy with both feet on the proverbial ground, I guess.


Interesting you say "proverbial ground" because both Alpha Centauri and Starcraft are space games that take place on the ground... not in space. I'm not arguing your point. I feel the same way about games like MOO and GalCiv. Great games, but I just don't care for sci-fi 4x. Except for Alpha Centauri which is probably the best designed game I've ever played.

As for Jedi Outcast... I agree about the level design, I'd also fault it for having a terrible story and villain (a purple dinosaur jedi? Barney?!?) but the saber combat and force powers were first rate action game design. As evidenced by The Ladder, a Raven designed mod that's better than the game it's based on.

[Kalle]

Does anyone else appreciate the irony of the presence of game reviewers in these two "critically acclaimed/maligned" threads?

[Luke M]

Metroid Prime - The best 15 hours I ever experienced with my Gamecube. And then I got to the Omega Pirate boss...

Black and White - It was fun for that first 8 hour burst, but then the novelty of the graphics and physics went away.

[SpoofyChop]

Metroid Prime - The best 15 hours I ever experienced with my Gamecube. And then I got to the Omega Pirate boss...

I understand exactly what you mean. I hit a certain point in the game where I just could NOT get past a certain sequence. I replayed it something like 12 times before actually beating it.

I almost stopped playing.

If a game has a bottleneck frustration point where theres very little ability to find a different solution or bulk up your character...it can get pretty depressing.

[Chris Nahr]

Metroid Prime - The best 15 hours I ever experienced with my Gamecube. And then I got to the Omega Pirate boss...

Heh, I think I quit somewhere in the corridor that should lead up to that boss. Couldn't take any more invisible space pirates jumping at me. Still, the game was a lot of fun up to that point so I won't say that I hated it.

But now that some previous posters disclosed their dislike of Ultima, I have to add that the only good Ultimas were I-III and everything else was shite! Except for VIII which was pretty good.

[Luke M]

Metroid Prime - The best 15 hours I ever experienced with my Gamecube. And then I got to the Omega Pirate boss...

I understand exactly what you mean. I hit a certain point in the game where I just could NOT get past a certain sequence. I replayed it something like 12 times before actually beating it.

I almost stopped playing.

If a game has a bottleneck frustration point where theres very little ability to find a different solution or bulk up your character...it can get pretty depressing.

I ended up killing the Omega Pirate after about 6 tries and eventually completing the game, but the last 5 hours of it were so frustrating and repetitive that it practically unwound the entire experience for me. The pacing was just off. The Omega Pirate represented a sharp increase in difficulty, and the last 5 hours of the game killed the pacing for me. It just got so hard that I felt like I wasn't in control of Samus anymore. And don't even get me started on the Fusion Metroids... Anyway, you're right about those furstrating bottlenecks, and MP is a great example.

I don't flat out hate Metroid Prime, but I do remember it as a sour/bittersweet experience.

[Arioch]

Final Fantasy VII - stupid conversations, lots and lots of boring random encounters, and the beginning of combat animations far too long.

Neverwinter Nights - Find 4 Monsters! Find 3 evil guys! Find 4 pieces of something I can't bother to remember! Sorry if I spoiled the game now. And the first modern game which shoved the same rooms again and again in my face, due to the module-based mapmaking.

The Thing - I really wanted to like it, but burning myself isn't that much fun. Especially if I have to play ten minutes to burn myself again. Horrible controls of the blowtorch.

I'm currently playing Jedi Outcast and after 4 hours I'm already tired of shooting at the three kinds of enemies and looking for the way through the next locked door. But I haven't lost my hope yet.

Oh, and I love Max Payne like the brother I never had. All of it - the gameplay, the faces, the story, the graphic novelesque cutscenes, bullet time, the graphics, the drug induced dreams - brilliant game in my opinion.

[Stroker Ace]

Some of the posts are probably an overcorrection of the market's love for some of these titles. One of the traits of Qt3 for some time now is how many folks refuse to acknowledge a game's quality when the market loves it. It's far cooler to say something that's popular sucks major ass.

it helps me to think of all trolls as koontz/wumpus alter egos.

[Prodigy]

Jedi Outcast. Biggest letdown in recent memory.

Quake III. Pure crap if you ask me (but nobody is).

Morrowind. One boring game it is.

Black & White. I think everything has been said about this one.

Dugeon Keeper. Maybe the biggest letdown ever for me. Not what was promised, far from it. Where were the fun multiplayer mode, the "heroes vs evil dudes" modes, etc etc... ?

Nomad Soul/Omikron. Hated the design, hated the gameplay, fake "total freedom" feeling, when in fact the game is linear as possible, and let's not forget the crappy FPS mode.

[Prodigy]

Half-Life single player - just horrid. Multiplayer was a lot of fun though.

I can understand someone not liking HL, but these kind of comments are two inches away from pure trolling, imho. If HL's single player is "horrid" (and I can agree it has its ups and downs), where the hell are the good FPS games ?

[MattKeil]

Starcraft. Liked Warcraft II. Liked Warcraft III. Hated Starcraft. Not even too sure why. Maybe for the same reasons Alpha Centauri didn't grab me like Civ2 did - I just don't identify well with the sci-fi elements as compared to the fantasy/historical stuff. I like my strategy with both feet on the proverbial ground, I guess.


Interesting you say "proverbial ground" because both Alpha Centauri and Starcraft are space games that take place on the ground... not in space.

Exactly. Hence the "proverbial." :)

As for Jedi Outcast... I agree about the level design, I'd also fault it for having a terrible story and villain (a purple dinosaur jedi? Barney?!?) but the saber combat and force powers were first rate action game design. As evidenced by The Ladder, a Raven designed mod that's better than the game it's based on.

While I enjoyed electrocuting stormtroopers by the dozen, I found the saber combat to be absolutely brainless. Multiplayer games looked so silly they made me laugh. Dozens of players running around like hyperactive rabbits swatting laser swords around haphazardly. There's way too much "swing and hope" to JO's (and, unfortunately, Jedi Academy's) saber combat. It should be a more controllable and strategic thing, and footwork should be vastly more important than it is. And by "more important," I mean "actually in the game to begin with."

Circle strafing. Button-mashing. A Jedi craves not these things.

I'm still waiting for a Virtua Fighter-level lightsaber combat game that does some of the action sequences in the films justice.

~MJK

[Jason Levine]

Freelancer. I know it's not really the game's fault that I'm older than dirt and my reflexes are shot, but I just can't hack the mouse control. Couldn't they have at least included a joystick option? My 11-year-old son, otoh, loves it. So I guess that's all you need to know.

[Ranulf]

Some of the posts are probably an overcorrection of the market's love for some of these titles. One of the traits of Qt3 for some time now is how many folks refuse to acknowledge a game's quality when the market loves it. It's far cooler to say something that's popular sucks major ass.


Well, in the case of half-life thats probably true for me. I played it when it came out originally and enjoyed it all except for the alien world levels and the early multiplayer. I uninstalled it until I found counterstrike, then same thing when DoD came out. I don't think I ever bothered to play through the single player a second time.


I liked Jedi Outcast though. I can see why some wouldnt put up with it for the jumping/puzzles, circle strafe saber combat. Its sad when one has to rely on walkthroughs on almost every level. I never got into multi but I enjoyed the single player enough, guess I'm just a fan of slicing stormies in half/pushing them off cliffs. I thought the story turned out better than the last two movies. At least Academy's level design looks to be better.


I forgot all about Tibieran Sun. Last Westwood game I ever bought. Im convinced the unit AI was unionized and those miners took breaks every 2 minutes between mining runs, then got stoned and wandered into a combat zone just to piss me off. TA and starcraft did it better, much better. Don't get me started on the FMV in the game with those uber "stars" they had. Oooh, James Earl Jones.. so what? The game still sucks.

[Stroker Ace]

i was just thinking how cool it was that freelancer had a simple yet intricate combat interface. the fact that i went through the same rehearsed maneuvers to evade every new attacker on my tail was at once comforting and depressing.

Every time an enemy appears when I'm cruising I do the exact same thing:

Escape
Space
R
Tab
Mouse Wiggle

or...

Break Formation
Mouse Flight
Target Nearest Enemy
Afterburners
Evasive Maneuvers

so, is that mix of simplicity and detail good or bad?

[Bub, Andrew]

Circle strafing. Button-mashing. A Jedi craves not these things.

I'm still waiting for a Virtua Fighter-level lightsaber combat game that does some of the action sequences in the films justice.


Doesn't this go into the realm of criticizing a game for what you want it to be rather than what it's trying to be? The saber combat was supposed to be the Star Wars equivalent of Quake. It delivered and more importantly it was actually better than the original Jedi Knight saber combat (which mainly consisted of hitting the z key and jousting). It beat Rune as a melee game as well. Would I like it better if it was like Die by the Sword or Virtua Fighter? Yes, though the whole ranged combat thing would ruin Virtua Fighter combat, I think. A Jedi craves not the memorization of combos either!

In much the same way I think I'd like KOTOR better if I could control the combat. Y'know, strafe, not shoot the floor so often, that sort of thing. But that doesn't mean KOTOR is a bad game.

Anyway, I do agree with you about Jedi Outcast's level design. I just think the combat was pretty good (for what it was trying to do) and the Force powers were excellent.

[FlamingSheep]

Warcraft III - War 2 was not only more fun, but more balanced.

Hilarious quote, since - you know - both sides had practically the same units minus some spells.

I personally always picked CnC over War2, but that's just me.

Oh, Golden Sun.

[Because They Are Hirsute]

All RTS games.

Word. These are just flawed in concept. The idea of taking the engaging micromanagement that one has time for in a turn-based game and jamming it into some speedfreak clickfest is just not appealing. So fuck my villagers; there's a war on, and I don't have time to go gather more wood.

The Sims - About five minutes after I realized I was playing with a little girl's dollhouse this puppy got shelved. The only charm was turning my neighborhood into a disgusting minstrel show with a butchy fourth-wave feminist couple just down the block from a family of Polish-Americans with a fully furnished second story and no staircase. And I feel pretty guilty about that.

Civ III - That Double Your Pleasure mod was a nice band-aid, but sweet Christ, play your game before shipment. The diplomacy is so arbitrary that it shatters the illusion of "artificial intelligence."

Medieval: Total War - Fun early game. Great subject matter. After you control 10 or 15 provinces, the experience disintegrates due to unwieldy controls and goofy opponent logic. Beautiful battles though.

Gal Civ - Hate is too strong a word in this case. The title was hyped to such a degree I was expecting an incredibly intricate experience, not Civ1 with extra tedium. Sorry Brad.

Rollercoaster Tycoon - Oddly enough, I enjoyed moving little janitor dudes around to mop up puke. In fact that was probably my favorite part. But overall too much sit and watch, not enough interactivity.

EA Sports games since they stopped caring - Stopped caring about anything except giving rim jobs to reviewers, that is. Particularly the NHL series. What utter blasphemy that has become. Start the third period up four goals, and the opponent will take four straight wristers from the neutral zone, at which your goalie will wave as they pass.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Half-Life single player - just horrid. Multiplayer was a lot of fun though.

I can understand someone not liking HL, but these kind of comments are two inches away from pure trolling, imho. If HL's single player is "horrid" (and I can agree it has its ups and downs), where the hell are the good FPS games ?

Let me flesh out 'horrid' a little more:

1. Irritating story line
2. Irritating cut scenes - drawn out, badly scripted etc.
3. Irritating set pieces
4. Poorly placed monsters
5. Bad balance throught the levels

Mostly I just hated the poorly done "its a movie" but with an fps engine thing.

I was similarly irritated by the small amount that Halo does this too.

The weapons were great though, and that's what made the multiplayer so much fun.

You want good fps then it has to be Doom, Quake and Quake 3. Unreal Tournament gets an honourable mention for the fun single player AI.

I understand that much of what I dislike about HL is what the critics adored.

[Nellie]

Anything based on the QIII engine, cant think of a single game using it that I've liked. RTCW was almost fun until it got to killing zombies with that oh so quirky random bullet syndrome that every QIII game I've played seems to suffer from. To be specific I loathed QIII, JK Outcast, MOH, that splatter sequel from raven (soldier of fortune?) and ultimately RTCW.

Duke Nukem. Whatever the appeal was of this title, it eluded me totally, just looked like a poor mans Doom to me.

Doom - Arsecandles (now quake on the other hand was a masterpiece).

Command and Conquer - zzzzzzzzzzzzz

CIV III - What a let down after CivII especially the way I like to play (amass superior tech and forces and then beat the snot out of the little guy, sue me, its my game).

Tomb Raider - I've got the web ffs, when I want a hand shandy I'll look at porn. Only entertainment I found in this was devising "interesting" ways of killing the silly bint.

Got to mention Outcast again, I was playing "take two steps, save before you fall off the ledge games" donkeys years ago and I just love running all over the same map for hours looking for that sneaky little switch you hid, no really I do, thats what made me masterbate furiously to Tombraider.

GTA3/Vice city - Oh joy, so the game has all these really fun features but I cant use any of them until I've completed hundreds of bastard missions against the clock and failed each one at least 500 times by 0.3 miliseconds. Still at least the sound track was funky.

A Tale in The Desert - "we've got no levelling system". 'oh yes you do'. And whoever came up with the idea of making travel "deliberately difficult" but ultimately essential to do anything in the game needs shooting. And I just love the DIY RSI featured in doing anything in the game. I tried to like it, I really wanted to but I can endlessly click my mouse for minimal entertainment without having to shell out £15 a month.

Half-life - Never finished the single player game and its been installed on my system almost constantly since it was released, mainly to play CS, DoD and other mods.

Madden on the console - found it totally impossible to play without taking a degree in American Football first. FS at least soccer (I use this term for the beautiful game only to avoid confusion) games label the buttons pass, tackle and shoot. would it really have been that hard to cater for the casual sports fan at least in the sorry excuse for a manual?

[Acosta]

Wow, some serious bashing here...

I could understand about Deus Ex (hardly), Civ III, Half Life or Black & White, but find some of your choices odd (specially for Nomad Soul, that didn´t get specially good reviews neither sold many units, was mostly ignored).

For me, FF VIII (I ended ill of so much love and how stupid were all the characters, specially the bad ones), Diablo (what´s the point about this game?) and some ones more.

[Machfive]

Oh, and I love Max Payne like the brother I never had. All of it - the gameplay, the faces, the story, the graphic novelesque cutscenes, bullet time, the graphics, the drug induced dreams - brilliant game in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more heartily.

[MattKeil]

Circle strafing. Button-mashing. A Jedi craves not these things.

I'm still waiting for a Virtua Fighter-level lightsaber combat game that does some of the action sequences in the films justice.


Doesn't this go into the realm of criticizing a game for what you want it to be rather than what it's trying to be? The saber combat was supposed to be the Star Wars equivalent of Quake. It delivered and more importantly it was actually better than the original Jedi Knight saber combat (which mainly consisted of hitting the z key and jousting). It beat Rune as a melee game as well.

You've definitely got a point on the "expectations vs. actuality" thing. Still, I think my major beef with the saber combat was that it bore little to no resemblance to Star Wars lightsaber combat as depicted in the films. As you say, it felt more like Quake than SW. Treading dangerous ground there, perhaps, but a similar complaint has been repeatedly leveled at SWG, so who's to say where the line is drawn?

If the level design had been at least decent, I would have overlooked my dislike of the saber combat. Even though I didn't enjoy 90% of the game, the 10% that consisted of Force pulling and pushing half a dozen stormtroopers to the ground and tossing them into each other with Force Grip was brilliant.

Would I like it better if it was like Die by the Sword or Virtua Fighter? Yes, though the whole ranged combat thing would ruin Virtua Fighter combat, I think. A Jedi craves not the memorization of combos either!

They certainly don't. But by "Virtua Fighter-level" I mean something of that complexity, not necessarily Jacky with a doublesaber. VF4 has a surprisingly fluid feel to it, and the moves and combos don't rely on memorization so much as pure knowledge of how the character you're playing functions. I don't think about what move I should do next with Kage, I just know what to do and do it. As Maverick said, "If you think...you're dead."

I'd just love to see a lightsaber combat game (or just engine in a larger game) that features that kind of second-nature flow and depth.

Still, if Jedi Outcast is the pinnacle of realtime saber combat, at least we've come a long way from Jedi Arena on the 2600. :)

~MJK

[Machfive]

Any of you guys remember a game called Die By the Sword?

As a game, it was forgettable, but the way it handled sworldplay was sheer brilliance.

The day a Star Wars game implements a physics based sabre combat engine is the day a Star Wars game turns my head.

[MikeOberly]

Medieval: Total War - Fun early game. Great subject matter. After you control 10 or 15 provinces, the experience disintegrates due to unwieldy controls and goofy opponent logic. Beautiful battles though.


I didn't think I had any games that would fit,until you mentioned this one.I can't really say that I hate the tactical engine,but the strategic game is an overblown crapfest.It might be playable if they remove all the superfluous crap and just stick to the armies.It's a rare game-I actually can't bear the thought of playing it.

[Bub, Andrew]

at least we've come a long way from Jedi Arena on the 2600. :)


Indeed!
http://www.thelogbook.com/phosphor/atari26/img/jedi1.gif

[JP]

that oh so quirky random bullet syndrome that every QIII game I've played seems to suffer from. To be specific I loathed QIII, JK Outcast, MOH, that splatter sequel from raven (soldier of fortune?) and ultimately RTCW.

This is not a Q3 engine, or any engine thing. Random aim offset on automatic weapons (which I agree is usually totally fucking stupid) is entirely up to the gameplay programmer. For the record, Q3A only had one random offset weapon, the machinegun you spawn with, and it only deviated about 5 degrees in any direction.

Grr, sorry... people mistaking gameplay / art issues for engine issues is a pet peeve of mine.

[Machfive]

that oh so quirky random bullet syndrome that every QIII game I've played seems to suffer from. To be specific I loathed QIII, JK Outcast, MOH, that splatter sequel from raven (soldier of fortune?) and ultimately RTCW.

This is not a Q3 engine, or any engine thing. Random aim offset on automatic weapons (which I agree is usually totally fucking stupid) is entirely up to the gameplay programmer. For the record, Q3A only had one random offset weapon, the machinegun you spawn with, and it only deviated about 5 degrees in any direction.

Grr, sorry... people mistaking gameplay / art issues for engine issues is a pet peeve of mine.

Random aim offset would be easier to deal with if you were fairly confident that where your sights were showing you aiming was actually, in fact, the area that the barrel of the gun was going to launch a parabolically challenged projectile to within 1 MOA of accuracy (greater or lesser depend on the caliber, pun intended, of weapon).

Hitscan is SO Doom I. Any game that was using it on any non-beam/particle/laser weapon post Quake II deserves to be smited, just for shits and giggles.

[JP]

Yes, because ballistics simulation automatically equals BETTER GAME. I hear it's great for network performance too.

[Jonathan Blow]

Yes, because ballistics simulation automatically equals BETTER GAME. I hear it's great for network performance too.

Actually there's no difference in terms of network performance. Assuming your network programmer is competent. Which most are not. Sigh.

[Supertanker]

Laser-accurate weapons only bother me in multiplayer, since there is always a group of players that are quite good with those weapons at long range. Combined with heavy damage (like the Kar/Enfield in DoD) they really can impact a game.

[Machfive]

Yes, because ballistics simulation automatically equals BETTER GAME. I hear it's great for network performance too.

Let's see...

Time to calculate a simple quadratic equation involving an initial velocity, gravity, and objections which would cause collision with the projectile, versus...

Randomly generating the location of the shot.

Oooh, and extra fraction of a thousandth of a CPU cycle.

I'd much rather the programmers put the extra .01% priority on ballistics than fitting a 5 more polys into a poorly-optimized 3D mesh.

Calculating ballistics is something computers are really freaking good at. Or don't you remember those games in the 80's where you were lobbing mortars at an opponent's castle? Add one dimension, and you got projectile weapons.

This isn't very complex, and at least when you miss your opponent, you have no one to blame but yourself, instead of ridiculously designed random hitscan scheme.

Projectile physics would put an end to half the bitching in online gaming.

[Machfive]

Laser-accurate weapons only bother me in multiplayer, since there is always a group of players that are quite good with those weapons at long range. Combined with heavy damage (like the Kar/Enfield in DoD) they really can impact a game.

In my world, AWP whores have to calculate bullet drop from gravity.

Of course, in my world, the maps are large enough where bullet drop would actually make an impact.

And in my world, I wouldn't have quit CS at beta 7.1.

But I digress.

[JP]

Actually there's no difference in terms of network performance. Assuming your network programmer is competent. Which most are not. Sigh.

Actually, modeling each bullet as an individual projectile that travels through the air, behaves like a real physics object etc is MUCH more network costly than doing a simple trace. Even if you use traces, subdividing that to simulate silly shit like Kentucky windage will slow things down... maybe not visibly though.

[malphigian]

Calculating ballistics is something computers are really freaking good at. Or don't you remember those games in the 80's where you were lobbing mortars at an opponent's castle? Add one dimension, and you got projectile weapons.

From a stationary gunman with no environmental effects? Do you add wind? What effect does running, walking, or crouching have? Do I need to time shots with my breathing? It starts to sound a lot more significant than the 3d scorched earth you're suggesting. Even if you did that, you really think people would bitch any less? That's even aside from the network issue, which I think isn't *that* easy to dismiss.

I guess I'm not terribly sympathetic to the realism focused gamers (the people who are bitching), every decent game I've played is internally consistent with it's ballastics, and once I learn how it works, I know what's going to happen. Good enough for me.

[Matthew Gallant]

This isn't very complex, and at least when you miss your opponent, you have no one to blame but yourself, instead of ridiculously designed random hitscan scheme.

Projectile physics would put an end to half the bitching in online gaming.
Goodness knows the fun is in the barely perceptible details.

[JP]

Where to begin?

I'd much rather the programmers put the extra .01% priority on ballistics than fitting a 5 more polys into a poorly-optimized 3D mesh.

I'd rather have the designers come up with enjoyable, comprehensible game mechanics than have the programmers and artists jack off all over themselves and cram the result in a box.

Calculating ballistics is something computers are really freaking good at.

So that means it needs to be implemented in games? Computers are good at adding sums too, should there be a VisiCalc mini game in Doom?

Projectile physics would put an end to half the bitching in online gaming.

No, it wouldn't. If you really are simulating the chaotic effects of wind, distance, air density etc in a shooting game, then the results of player actions are going to be just as inexplicable as a big fat random number generator. You'd still get just as much "WTF I DIED?!?".

My point is that all of this stupid gun shit that some people really seem to get off on is nothing more than that - stupid gun shit. Its implementation in shooting games is becoming increasingly pointless, but programmers love tossing it in because A) it makes them seem like L337 uber-smart physics coders, B) like you say, the machine can do the math so of course it should, and most importantly C) they're out of real fucking ideas. I'm sick of programmers telling me how much neat shit is in their game, and having to be told because it only manifests in things I have no way of seeing, hearing, or touching.

I hear people bring up Kentucky windage all the time as something that would be "awesome" in an FPS. Think about it for a second. Bullets in our real world are invisible, travel instantly, and most leave very little trace of their impact. They're almost always instantly lethal. They can hit you from up to a mile away on a clear day. So you're firing off a bunch of shots, shots that are being affected by all of these whizbang simulated factors, with little to no feedback as to where you're hitting, other than a spray of blood if you luck out and tag a guy. What a fucking fun-ass game that makes for.

Most people have a hard enough time staying alive and hitting their target in a game like Counter-Strike. Now you're asking them to acquire all of the knowledge and training that a sharpshooter has. If you're gunning for a simulation that's as close to the "real thing" as possible, fine. Maybe that's what most people want out of FPSes, I really don't know anymore.

Funny you should mention DOOM, because that game was easier to learn and play, had simpler mechanics, a better balance between offense and defense and overall more diverse and enjoyable gameplay than arguably any FPS made since.

Fuck technological doodads right in the ear. I want to play a game.

[Machfive]

From a stationary gunman with no environmental effects? Do you add wind? What effect does running, walking, or crouching have? Do I need to time shots with my breathing? It starts to sound a lot more significant than the 3d scorched earth you're suggesting. Even if you did that, you really think people would bitch any less? That's even aside from the network issue, which I think isn't *that* easy to dismiss.

I guess I'm not terribly sympathetic to the realism focused gamers (the people who are bitching), every decent game I've played is internally consistent with it's ballastics, and once I learn how it works, I know what's going to happen. Good enough for me.

Depends on the game and what they're going for.

I think at a bare minimum, a mobile crosshair would be the benchmark. Currently, you see your gun bouncing up and down, the crosshairs widening, but you have shit for an idea of where the gun's pointing precisely.

That irritates the fuck out of me. With that system, you introduce a HUGE element of luck into the factor.

"If I'd fired at him with my rocket launcher, which has been projectile since Doom I, I would have hit him. But since I used my gun, and where my crosshairs point me is not necessarily anywhere near where the bullet ends up, I get gibbed."

Sorry, no. That takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. I was willing to put up for it for a long time, but it's 2003. Valve is about to introduce a game where, when I shoot a rope with a gun, the rope severs and sets off a chain reaction that would make Rube Goldberg proud.

If they're capable of devoting that much processing time to object interaction in 2003, then they could've had fully projectile weapons locked down in 2001.

Back to my baseline though: Instead of the aforementioned system involving useless expanding crosshairs, why not have the crosshair itself - Gasp - Move as you fire? As long as the crosshair is on your target, and you pull the trigger, and your shot was aiming center of mass and not at the edge of his arm which MIGHT get out of the way by the time the bullet gets there - You've hit him.

No more one-shot kills because you nailed the back of a man's running foot. Or his elbow as he ducked behind a box. If that bullet, with a volume of space it occupies in the 3D gameworld, does not collide with another polygonal object representing a game character, then you haven't hit them.

If a game developer who wants to put an emphasis on strategizing and long-distance sniping wants to implement wind, elevation, drop, and other such fun measures into their game, more power to them.

But simple projectile physics are NOT too much to ask for, and the shift in gameplay away from potshots where you HOPE the bullet randomly generates where you want it to will hopefully fade away.

/rant

[Supertanker]

Even if you use traces, subdividing that to simulate silly shit like Kentucky windage will slow things down.

I must nitpick a moment since people keep misusing the term. Windage is adjusting for the effect of wind. Kentucky Windage (http://www.snipercountry.com/Compendium/Comp_K.htm) is just guessing at the windage and holding off the target instead of calculating the windage and adjusting your sights. Rarely you also hear it called Tennessee Elevation.

It might be interesting if a game could work this in, but it has an equal chance of being boring or annoying. National Match sim, anyone?

[JP]

every decent game I've played is internally consistent with it's ballastics, and once I learn how it works, I know what's going to happen. Good enough for me.

Exactly. Internal consistency is the only thing that truly matters. Where most "realism" oriented FPS games go wrong is that they offer a level of visual / physical representation that's not consistent with the options available to the player. FPS avatars are still just guns, duct-taped to lazy susans, on roller skates. That make a constipated grunt when they lift up into the air.

If the game takes place in the real world, and involves shooting and other such tactical military stuff: Can I squeeze into a laundry chute? Can I build a barricade out of spare objects in the room? Can I set the contents of a waste bin on fire, or fill the room with vapor from a nearby fire extinguisher? Can I throw an empty clip across the room to create a (hopefully) distracting noise?

Actual realism will only come with meaningful expansion upon the interactivity offered. Everything else is just window dressing for gun nuts.

[Machfive]

No, it wouldn't. If you really are simulating the chaotic effects of wind, distance, air density etc in a shooting game, then the results of player actions are going to be just as inexplicable as a big fat random number generator. You'd still get just as much "WTF I DIED?!?".

Slippery slope argument, nice. I guess I'll just be judgemental and lump you in with the right-wingers crying homosexual marraige will lead to polygamy and incestual marraiges.

Distance is not too much to ask for. I can see wind and air density being calculated when there exist games where wind and air density exist as solid game elements. Those two might be a bit off, and I wouldn't call them particularily necessary to implement a projectile physics engine. We can start with 3 factors that are already in games - Gravity, velocity, and distance.

My point is that all of this stupid gun shit that some people really seem to get off on is nothing more than that - stupid gun shit. Its implementation in shooting games is becoming increasingly pointless, but programmers love tossing it in because A) it makes them seem like L337 uber-smart physics coders, B) like you say, the machine can do the math so of course it should, and most importantly C) they're out of real fucking ideas. I'm sick of programmers telling me how much neat shit is in their game, and having to be told because it only manifests in things I have no way of seeing, hearing, or touching.

That's all fine and good. I made the "realism is not an argument unto itself" argument on the CS forums over and over many moons ago.

That said, occasionally, some things can be realistic and have valid gameplay elements. In a strategical combat sim, an iron-sight based aiming system is a logical addition to the other realistic elements.

Some things can be valid gameplay elements and be hella unrealistic. Max Payne's bullet-time may not exist in the real world, but it sure made thata game a kickass experience.

So you're firing off a bunch of shots, shots that are being affected by all of these whizbang simulated factors (or randomized math functions), with little to no feedback as to where you're hitting, other than a spray of blood if you luck out and tag a guy. What a fucking fun-ass game that makes for.

Change one thing and you've got our situation right now.

How ironic. ::snickers::

Most people have a hard enough time staying alive and hitting their target in a game like Counter-Strike. Now you're asking them to acquire all of the knowledge and training that a sharpshooter has. If you're gunning for a simulation that's as close to the "real thing" as possible, fine. Maybe that's what most people want out of FPSes, I really don't know anymore.

Don't bring up Counter-strike with me. I'm still trying to repress the awful memories of the warnings I gave Goose about the direction he was leading the game, and the results thereof.

Part of the reason people have a hard time staying alive in Counter-strike THESE days is that they'll have their targets in their crosshairs, unload an entire clip, and not have hit their opponent once. At least, that's what it looks like when I watch my brother play; I haven't touch the game since I abandoned the CS community.

Fuck technological doodads right in the ear. I want to play a game.

So you'll be joining me for a game of pong, then?

[Machfive]

If the game takes place in the real world, and involves shooting and other such tactical military stuff: Can I squeeze into a laundry chute? Can I build a barricade out of spare objects in the room? Can I set the contents of a waste bin on fire, or fill the room with vapor from a nearby fire extinguisher? Can I throw an empty clip across the room to create a (hopefully) distracting noise?


You've seen the Half-Life 2 videos, haven't you? ;)

[JP]

Yes, and if HL2 puts its proverbial money where its proverbial mouth is, it will be a very nice step in the direction of greater internal consistency. Here's hoping.

[Machfive]

Yes, and if HL2 puts its proverbial money where its proverbial mouth is, it will be a very nice step in the direction of greater internal consistency. Here's hoping.

You and me both, bro. You and me both.

[voltaic]

Don't some of the later titles in the Rainbow Six series (post-Rogue Spear) calculate all that ultra-detail ballistics nonsense? I thought I read that somewhere.

Anyways if you treat a bullet just like a slow-moving projectile (such as a rocket or grenade) with the effects of gravity and maybe wind (if there is any in the level), there you are. Ballistics. Already in the same games just with different weapons. w00!

[Machfive]

Don't some of the later titles in the Rainbow Six series (post-Rogue Spear) calculate all that ultra-detail ballistics nonsense? I thought I read that somewhere.

Anyways if you treat a bullet just like a slow-moving projectile (such as a rocket or grenade) with the effects of gravity and maybe wind (if there is any in the level), there you are. Ballistics. Already in the same games just with different weapons. w00!

You made my point better than I had in the past 4 rants.

Kudos.

And hell, they don't need wind yet. There isn't a game that uses wind to effect flags that realistically wave or anything, so it's something that can be saved for later. So at that point, we're asking for a little gravity drop and an actually volumetric impact system.

I don't think that's too far-fetched.

[Mike Hussey]

Not hatred (I save that for politicians), but a few I couldn't see what all the fuss was about:

Half Life
Quake
The Ultima series (I could never get 7 to work though).
The first Final Fantasy produced for the PC (VII?), I didn't bother with any of the others.

I really enjoyed EU and EU2 though, so perhaps I'm just a wierdo.

[Prodigy]

You want good fps then it has to be Doom, Quake and Quake 3. Unreal Tournament gets an honourable mention for the fun single player AI.

Quake 3 is good, and UT has an "honorable mention". Wow, 1999 flashback :lol:

To me UT is fantastic & Q3 is crap, but hey... :wink:

[Murph]

Fallout- I didnt hate it but I could never get very far into it before losing interest.

Ditto.

Double-ditto. Never got into Fallout. I really wanted to, but it just didn't do it for me.


Warcraft III - War 2 was not only more fun, but more balanced.

Hilarious quote, since - you know - both sides had practically the same units minus some spells.

Especially considering that one of those spells, for one of the races, doubled their attack rate and freaking tripled their damage for far more than the duration of a battle, thus making them almost impossible to beat. No, the orcs were way overpowered. Still chose the humans almost every time -- a good use of Blizzard could go a long way -- but it didn't make up for the bloodlust being too powerful.

Warcraft III is, in my opinion, better in every way than Warcraft II.

[bago]

I think the whole point of ballistics etc is to re-introduce some skill into aiming. There's a difference between "putting your cursor on a guy and clicking it" and "calculating velocity for multiple objects and aiming at where you think they will meet".

Also known as the "I hate the railgun" argument.

[Nellie]

Grr, sorry... people mistaking gameplay / art issues for engine issues is a pet peeve of mine.

I mention it as an engine issue purely because every QIII game I have played demonstrates the same characteristics namely that every now and again your, up until now well aimed, shots just miss with no discernable pattern to correct for. It also does not seem to be weapon specific, every weapon in every game I have played seems to demonstrate the phenomena and it just annoys me, especially when it happens at close range.

I'm quite happy to contend with wind, gravity, recoil, being out of breath, at a run, etc etc all of those with practice can be compensated for to some degree, but I find it hard to just accept that now and again my shots are going to miss "just because" which is how it appears to be in the QIII based games.

[Strollen]

Black and White for all the reason people said.

Age of Empires... I hate Real Time Strategy games, athough Rise of Nations I sort of liked.

Earth and Beyond: Ok it didn't recieve glowing reviews but good ones, a rare space game that I fell asleep playing..

[Desslock]

Some of these choices seem bizarre -- I can completely understand why Morrowind isn't everyone's cup'o, but can't comprehend criticisms of DOOM, unless you're comparing it to games released years later.

That said, I'll contribute one that a lot of people will find strange: WarCraft 3 -- I was really disappointed with the single player game after StarCraft (and almost never play RTS multiplayer, although I played a lot of TA, StarCraft, Dark Reign and WarCraft 2). I found it boring and tedious, and a chore to play through -- it was also so easy until the end of the third campaign that it felt even more tedious.

I also much preferred the original Diablo to Diablo 2, although I might have just been really burnt out on the gameplay by the time the sequel came out.

[Machfive]

I think the whole point of ballistics etc is to re-introduce some skill into aiming. There's a difference between "putting your cursor on a guy and clicking it" and "calculating velocity for multiple objects and aiming at where you think they will meet".

Also known as the "I hate the railgun" argument.

If the gun is a railgun, then sure. A steaming hunk of plasma traveling at the speed of light, for all intents and purposes, would be hitscan based. Unless you're dealing with maps 100 mile wide, and you've got a 1 million times scope on your railgun. Then maybe, just maybe, you'd still treat it as a projectile.

Regardless, the day I have to lead an enemy I'm shooting at in a game is the day I wet my pants with glee. And I got my depends on already, game developers - HIT ME.

[Nomad]

Can't help saying a couple of words about my all-time "favorites".

Morrowind and its two expansions. Copy/pasted environments, weak role-playing system designed to create superheroes despite your best efforts to stay normal, run-of-the-mill character, lots of FedEx-quests, astounding number of show-stopping bugs. And no charm whatsoever.

Star Trek: Elite Force. Horrible friendly AI and teleporting enemies made this one a torture for me.

Diablo 2. A training program to improve one's mouse-handling skills. Kill. Kill everything that moves. And then kill again. Then sell this wonderful Armor +18 to Something which fell out of some poor quillboar. The thing lasted three days on my hard disk.

Black & White. Five missions, poor balance, no sense of gameplay design direction at all, tedious micromanagement and no originality except for that Tamogotchi-like Creature (oh wait, that's been done, too!).

Unreal Tournament 2003. Take a great game (UT) and cross-breed it with the abysmal Quake 3. The result is obvious.

Hitman 2. Lots of stupid design restrictions (why was I getting shot for rummaging through trash cans in Saint Petersburg? Puh-lease, IO!), even more stereotypes (I found underground ex-KGB barracks especially amusing), murky textures which had "I was ported from consoles" look and cliched storyline. But I gotta admit - Russian cuss-words in the intro movie were very convincing!

Counter-Strike. I hate every bit of code, every pixel, every sound effect of this brain-rotting trash. Alas, it even managed to overshadow clearly superior Global Operations and exterminated all other FPS games on our local LAN server. I just hope C-S2 never sees the light of day.

Soldier of Fortune 2. Rail and trigger-based shooter with cardboard levels, gratituous excess of blood & gore, typical B-movie storyline and no novelty whatsoever. Stupid popcorn game.

Phew. There are much more titles I'd like to mention, but I'm afraid this'll take ages to write.

P.S. Oh, wait! Icewind Dale 2! A perfect example of how you can take a great idea, a renowned licensed role-playing system and turn them into a boredom-fest. The dialogues and first two chapters were good. Then it became much worse. It's hard to play IWD2 and stay awake at the same time.

[Machfive]

I just hope C-S2 never sees the light of day.

That'll happen precisely the same time the Detroit Lions win a Super-bowl, and the RIAA apologizes for fleecing artists and consumers and decides to voluntarily disband.

In other words, when Hell freezes over.

[BloodKnight]

First person RPG's like M&M VI and Wizardry 8. Way way WAAAAAY to many encounters for a TB system. Ohh look go over a hill and see 100 orcs I have to slog my way through for the next 20 minutes...yaaay. Also I just don't like the FP view for a group RPG game. Am I a party of adventurers or some weird multi-headed fighter/magic user/thief cleric thing.

Its called "Go to options and turn up the combat speed"

I gotta reinstall Wizardry 8.

[BloodKnight]

Half-Life, Starcraft, Warcraft, Galatic Civliziations, Black and White, Final Fantasy, Silent Hill, Resident Evil, Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Midnight Club 2, Dungeon Siege, HOMM 4, Everquest, Shadowbane, Asheron's Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Eve Online, and Omikron.

*cough*

[Xaroc]

So essentially this thread boiled down is:

Every game ever made is overrated! Thanks and good night.

-- Xaroc

[Jason McCullough]

First person RPG's like M&M VI and Wizardry 8. Way way WAAAAAY to many encounters for a TB system. Ohh look go over a hill and see 100 orcs I have to slog my way through for the next 20 minutes...yaaay. Also I just don't like the FP view for a group RPG game. Am I a party of adventurers or some weird multi-headed fighter/magic user/thief cleric thing.

Its called "Go to options and turn up the combat speed"

I gotta reinstall Wizardry 8.

I gave up on Wizardry 8 because turning up the combat speed didn't help. They'd still take an eternity shuffling themselves around the map.

[Jonathan Blow]

Actually, modeling each bullet as an individual projectile that travels through the air, behaves like a real physics object etc is MUCH more network costly than doing a simple trace. Even if you use traces, subdividing that to simulate silly shit like Kentucky windage will slow things down... maybe not visibly though.

Do you ever do game network programming? I do it all the time, and you are incorrect.

[Drunkagain]

So essentially this thread boiled down is:

Every game ever made is overrated! Thanks and good night.

-- Xaroc

:lol: It does sound that way dosen't it?

[MattKeil]

I'll also throw Gran Turismo 2 into the mix. I've never been a huge fan of the series overall, but GT2 was just disastrous. More cars, but the environments were just godawful. The draw distance was what, ten feet ahead of the car? No AI, just rubberbanding. No damage, of course, something that still wasn't remedied in GT3. I've always found it amusing that rebounding off the sides of your opponents' cars is an acceptable strategy in the "Real Driving Simulator."

Next to Final Fantasy, I consider GT to be the most overrated series ever.

~MJK