Hersh: Pentagon hit squads under executive command

[Lizard_King]

should be interesting (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Hersh_US_has_been_running_executive_0311.html).

[Brandon Clements]

Why am I having deja vu?

[Guido Jones]

Last I knew JSOC was Delta and SEAL team 6. They deffinately don't "report to nobody"

[Grifman]

From the title and article I'm not sure what the issue is:

1) That these squads are under executive command? Isn't it good that they report to someone? Or do you want them to report to someone else?

2) That they exist? Is anyone surprised that we have teams seeking to take out terrorists around the world, wherever they may be?

3) Or is it that they even exist?

What exactly is the objection?

[Eric T Cheng]

But I thought that the VP isn't part of the executive branch?!

[Jason McCullough]

Hersh then went on to describe a second area of extra-legal operations: the Joint Special Operations Command. "It is a special wing of our special operations community that is set up independently," he explained. "They do not report to anybody, except in the Bush-Cheney days, they reported directly to the Cheney office. ... Congress has no oversight of it."

"It’s an executive assassination ring essentially, and it’s been going on and on and on," Hersh stated. "Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us."

1. Can approval for this sort of thing be constitutionally delegated to Cheney?
2. All military and intelligence operations operations are supposed to be reviewable by congress. So that's yet another impeachment item there.
3. Bypassing all existing intelligence structures, checks and balances, and creating a special squadron of assassins that report to literally no one but the VP sounds like a great fucking idea. Definitely no potential for collossal fuckups or abuse there.

[MikeSofaer]

You can sometimes go into a country you aren't at war with and kill people there who you think are a threat to you, even if they aren't shooting at you right then. Israel does it pretty often, with bomb makers.

Sometimes, though, you can't. Sometimes the person you think is a threat does not in fact qualify as a legitimate military target. If you order such a person killed, with legal advice from no one not named "Addington", you put yourself at risk of having ordered a murder. Depending on the details of all this stuff (and I really want to read what he's writing) this could be pretty significant.

[JackBurton]

First of all, Hersh seems to not understand jack shit about the command structure of the military, or if he does he isn't showing it...JSOC is the subgroup of USSOCCOM that controls the SMUs(Special Mission units) of SOCCOM. Combat Application Group(Delta), DEVGRU(Formerly SEAL team 6), the Air Forces 24th Special tactics squadron and an Intel unit that has gone by several names.(Anyone that read Killing Pablo would remember them as Centra Spike). As a part of USSOCCOM they report directly to the head of SOCCOM and under the unified command structure, the combatant commanders report directly to the the President and the Secretary of Defense(or at the Presidents discretion the Chairmam of the Joint Chiefs). That structure has been in place since Goldwater-Nichols in 1986, so to say that this is new or that they report to no-one is nonsensical and you could apply that same logic logic to any unit in the military.

Beyond the unsubstantiated claim thet Cheney was stepping in for the president in the chain of command, I'm not really sure what else is new in the article and when I hear someone say something like give me a couple of years and I'll have enough evidence to prove my case, that usually makes my bullshit meter hit red.

[Miramon]

But I thought that the VP isn't part of the executive branch?!

What branch do you think he's part of?

[salwon]

What branch do you think he's part of?

According to him, he was part of the Legislative branch.

[Ben Sones]

Did anyone other than Cheney ever buy that line of bull? The Constitution very clearly indicates which branch his office falls under. The office Vice President is introduced and granted its powers under Article II: the Executive Branch.

[krise madsen]

Yeah, what JackBurton said. It just seem like he's stumbled upon JSOC and hasn't figured out that it isn't some super-secret organisation that he wasn't supposed to know about. Of course, it could be the reporter who's the clueless one who completely misunderstood what Hersh was saying. I mean, with all the shit going on (extraordinary renditions, waterboarding and all) it's not unthinkable that someone (like Dick) decided to push the envelope a little.

But as it's written, it just comes off as silly and clueless.

Did anyone other than Cheney ever buy that line of bull? The Constitution very clearly indicates which branch his office falls under. The office Vice President is introduced and granted its powers under Article II: the Executive Branch.

To be fair, Dick only denied being part of the Executive Branch when it would get him off the hook. He was fine with it for the immunity stuff and all.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Miramon]

Well the JSOC claims (http://www.socom.mil/components/components.htm) to be something like a research and training group, not an operational special forces command.


Joint Special Operations Command is a joint headquarters designed to study special operations requirements and techniques; ensure interoperability and equipment standardization; plan and conduct joint special operations exercises and training; and develop joint special operations tactics.


So it's certainly newsworthy to report that they actually operate special forces units. If those units are themselves operating illegally, for example conducting assassination in countries with which we are not at war*, that's news too.

It may perhaps not be all that astonishing that the units exist or that their reporting structure is classified, and of course JSOC is part of USSOC or SOCOM or whatever you want to call it, which naturally is an operational command.

If these units report, or ever did report, to the Vice President, that would be a ludicrous and unprecedented chain of command, and while I don't know if it's a violation of law in itself, that would also be newsworthy.


*violating both international law and an executive order.

[Guido Jones]

Well the JSOC claims (http://www.socom.mil/components/components.htm) to be something like a research and training group, not an operational special forces command.


It's becuase it's composed of units that "don't exist" - Delta and DEVGRU (thanks JackBurton). Hell, even the Wiki artcle on Delta has them listed under JSOC.

[Miramon]

From your link:
Joint Special Operations Command is a joint headquarters designed to study special operations requirements and techniques; ensure interoperability and equipment standardization; plan and conduct joint special operations exercises and training; and develop joint special operations tactics.

Exactly. An exercise is not what I think of as an actual mission. Surely this is to be construed as a form of training -- wargames, practice, stuff like that.

But I am not shocked that a secret command doesn't publicize its real mission. That is to be expected. It's the reporting-to-the-VP thing, and any possible assassinations in neutral countries that would be the real meat of any reporting on the subject, with the details on JSOC, Delta Force, et al. just for flavor.

[JackBurton]

Well I deleted my response when I was trying to change what I was saying...but I was going to say that that quoted description does obscure what they really do and maybe it's just my familiarity with the subject that makes it seem common knowledge to me.

[Miramon]

Oops, sorry to comment on a deleted post.

Well it certainly does seem to be common knowledge in terms of wikipedia, anyway. You have to go to the right wikipedia page though; one I found just pretty much repeats what the .mil page says, the other mentions that JSOC is supposed to be running SMUs.

[Lizard_King]

First of all, Hersh seems to not understand jack shit about the command structure of the military, or if he does he isn't showing it...JSOC is the subgroup of USSOCCOM that controls the SMUs(Special Mission units) of SOCCOM. Combat Application Group(Delta), DEVGRU(Formerly SEAL team 6), the Air Forces 24th Special tactics squadron and an Intel unit that has gone by several names.(Anyone that read Killing Pablo would remember them as Centra Spike). As a part of USSOCCOM they report directly to the head of SOCCOM and under the unified command structure, the combatant commanders report directly to the the President and the Secretary of Defense(or at the Presidents discretion the Chairmam of the Joint Chiefs). That structure has been in place since Goldwater-Nichols in 1986, so to say that this is new or that they report to no-one is nonsensical and you could apply that same logic logic to any unit in the military.
The issue for me is not the chain of command per se. It's that without exception every time the Bush administration had access to a tool that can potentially be used for terrible things and has little or no oversight, they have abused or fucked it up royally. Therefore, I am interested when something I hadn't given much thought to comes up.

Beyond the unsubstantiated claim thet Cheney was stepping in for the president in the chain of command, I'm not really sure what else is new in the article and when I hear someone say something like give me a couple of years and I'll have enough evidence to prove my case, that usually makes my bullshit meter hit red.
It might, but I take Hersh seriously enough to consider it newsworthy. In any case, the presentation of some military matters of everyday routine to civilians is always a touchy issue. In general, those on the inside feel they are being criticized by people who don't get it, and the public is prone to be being misled handily by anyone with an axe to grind. Somewhere in between there is room for legitimate questions to be asked about the employment of our military by those whom it is supposed to serve, and removing the outer layer of ignorance from a potentially controversial aspect is the first step.

[Telefrog]

I don't want to burst anyone's conspiracy bubble, but I was in JSOC Pearl Harbor, HI, US Army and if that was part of a "super-secret" assassin command group, then we really have some boring-ass enemies. Without breaking any agreements made during my enlistment or after my discharge, I can say that Hersh's ideas of what JSOC does is humorous.

[Ben Sones]

Interesting. That's pretty much what I'd expect you to say... if you were part of a secret assassin hit squad!

[Lizard_King]

I don't want to burst anyone's conspiracy bubble, but I was in JSOC Pearl Harbor, HI, US Army and if that was part of a "super-secret" assassin command group, then we really have some boring-ass enemies. Without breaking any agreements made during my enlistment or after my discharge, I can say that Hersh's ideas of what JSOC does is humorous.

Sure, if in fact it is the ignorant hyperbole that you and Jack are assuming it is. But conventional military units are plenty capable of being misused, and even if it is a "boring" misuse plus JSOC's deployment capability alone it might bear some investigation.

[Telefrog]

Interesting. That's pretty much what I'd expect you to say... if you were part of a secret assassin hit squad!

Hmm... Rochester, NY you say?

[Dave Markell]

Interesting. That's pretty much what I'd expect you to say... if you were part of a secret assassin hit squad!

The above is even funnier if you say it like Dale Gribble (the paranoid from King of the Hill).

[Lizard_King]

Hmm... Rochester, NY you say?

Also, I understand the reservations you and Jack brought up, I just thought it was interesting. I figured if and when he does follow up on it, it would be good to start the conversation early.

[Telefrog]

Also, I understand the reservations you and Jack brought up, I just thought it was interesting. I figured if and when he does follow up on it, it would be good to start the conversation early.

No offense taken. I've become pretty accustomed to the idea that most people without military experience assume that any person (or whole unit, for that matter) in a special military group must be some kind of Bourne Identity super force.

It's actually pretty amusing. I used to get exasperated and try to tell people that it really involves a lot of reading and preparing reports, observation, and boredom with about 0.01% of the "good" stuff, but now I just smile and tell them that all the movies they've ever seen are 100% accurate.

[Lizard_King]

No offense taken. I've become pretty accustomed to the idea that most people without military experience assume that any person (or whole unit, for that matter) in a special military group must be some kind of Bourne Identity super force.

It's actually pretty amusing. I used to get exasperated and try to tell people that it really involves a lot of reading and preparing reports, observation, and boredom with about 0.01% of the "good" stuff, but now I just smile and tell them that all the movies they've ever seen are 100% accurate.

I think your ratios are off. While I would never in a million years equate any employment of so-called Other Coalition Forces etc in Iraq with what Hollywood creates, there has been what I feel comfortable calling a consistent tendency to assume that a higher overall level of potential and training is going to magically unfuck seriously problematic missions with a direct action component. Or, to dejargon a little, they'd send them in blind to accomplish something with a really suspect risk/reward ratio, with the worst case outcome being the uncomfortable collision of "BUDS will make these men immune to IEDs" with reality. I say that's the worst case from a military perspective without even factoring in the propensity for collateral damage that seriously reckless mission planning from bright people without an Area of Operations-familiar perspective can bring to the table, both right away and in the long term.

Therefore, I have little trouble inferring that it's possible these things were happening from a higher level and on a broader scale than just what my two deployments suggested.

[Telefrog]

I think your ratios are off.

It may be. I was talking from personal observation of my time at JSOC.

I do know that my regular deployed unit time in Iraq was far more "Hollywood" than the majority of my time in JSOC. From a strategic perspective however, the stuff I did at JSOC was considered more impactful. Go figure.

[Lizard_King]

It may be. I was talking from personal observation of my time at JSOC.

I do know that my regular deployed unit time in Iraq was far more "Hollywood" than the majority of my time in JSOC. From a strategic perspective however, the stuff I did at JSOC was considered more impactful. Go figure.
And by off, I should have qualified that I meant simply that it is not an insignificant number, not that it is the majority or the priority overall of JSOC. Which I think you gathered, I just wanted to specify. Otherwise, from my limited understanding I would agree with what you say.

[JackBurton]

No offense taken. I've become pretty accustomed to the idea that most people without military experience assume that any person (or whole unit, for that matter) in a special military group must be some kind of Bourne Identity super force.

It's actually pretty amusing. I used to get exasperated and try to tell people that it really involves a lot of reading and preparing reports, observation, and boredom with about 0.01% of the "good" stuff, but now I just smile and tell them that all the movies they've ever seen are 100% accurate.


It's funny you say that, a friend I went to High School with was in the National guard and deployed to Iraq as part of a civail affairs unit, from what he told me he was basically in the green zone advising local Iraqi's on reconstruction activity. I say it was funny because a few months after he got to Iraq there was an blurb in the high school alumni magazine under calss notes and he was mentioned as being in special operations and it was written up as if he was a part of some black ops unit.(Civail Afairs falls under USSOCCOM, so technically he was in special ops) He was pretty emabrrassed by it after the fact, his mom had contacted the magazine and because she and the writer really didn't understand what he was doing, it was written up that way. And that's not to take anything away from his service or that of people in CA.

[Anti-Bunny]

Hersh? Really?

He's been full of shit many times since My Lai, attempting to regain that spotlight. He claimed we had plans to preemptively nuke Iran under Bush. Also that US Soldiers gang raped children at Abu Garab and they are hiding the video footage.

[Sarkus]

The key is whether he can a) prove they did what he says they did and b) can also prove that they did it without congressional knowledge. Then it becomes a story. Until then it's a guy making claims he admits he can't back up.

[bago]

Hersh? Really?

He's been full of shit many times since My Lai, attempting to regain that spotlight. He claimed we had plans to preemptively nuke Iran under Bush. Also that US Soldiers gang raped children at Abu Garab and they are hiding the video footage.

I'm just going to quote this and let you defend Abu Ghraib.

Learn to spell the site of torture and rape, btw.

[Anti-Bunny]

I'm just going to quote this and let you defend Abu Ghraib.
Okay. You're going to be waiting for a while if you're expecting me to defend what actually happened there.

There's a reason that Hersh backed off and retracted the child sodomy statement.

[Slainte Mhath]

I used to get exasperated and try to tell people that it really involves a lot of reading and preparing reports, observation, and boredom with about 0.01% of the "good" stuff, but now I just smile and tell them that all the movies they've ever seen are 100% accurate.

Try frowning, staring at them silently for a moment, then in a quiet voice say, "You're not cleared to posess that information. Excuse me, I need to make a phone call.".

[Jason McCullough]

There's a reason that Hersh backed off and retracted the child sodomy statement.

His sources bailed on him, or maybe he got it wrong? Investigate reporters specializing in the military and intelligence services are going to have a pretty high "retraction because my source bailed" and "my sources are wrong" rate.

He claimed we had plans to preemptively nuke Iran under Bush.

....and what? He was wrong?

[Anti-Bunny]

His sources bailed on him, or maybe he got it wrong? Investigate reporters specializing in the military and intelligence services are going to have a pretty high "retraction because my source bailed" and "my sources are wrong" rate.

No, because responsible journalists get confirmation and corroboration of their stories, even if they are just for speeches.

To quote Hersh: "I can't fudge what I write, but I can certainly fudge what I say"

He fudged what he said without respect for the responsibilities of a journalist, and he did it willingly "to convey a greater truth". So, in his mind it works like this: "Cheney is evil, so if I accuse him of evil things, it's 'true' in that he's evil, even if I'm talking about my ass"

If you want to think Cheney is evil: Cool, I'm with ya buddy. But that doesn't mean you need to blindly believe every bullshit story, no how matter how improbable (see posts above), told about him.

....and what? He was wrong?

Yes, he was wrong saying it as a journalist, considering that the claim is completely baseless.

[Jason McCullough]

Hersh can't operate by "normal" journalistic standards unless you want him to stop publishing entirely. Do continue with the being mad at him for some reason, though.

[Anti-Bunny]

Hersh can't operate by "normal" journalistic standards unless you want him to stop publishing entirely. Do continue with the being mad at him for some reason, though.

So, journalistic standards don't apply when reporting on the government?

What an interesting argument!

[wildpokerman]

So, journalistic standards don't apply when reporting on the government?

What an interesting argument!

No Anti-Bunny what he's saying is that some journalistic sources you read because they get the news first and some you read because they get the news right.

As long as you know which one you're using they both serve valuable functions.

Hersh gets the news first at the expense of accuracy.

[Jason McCullough]

Yeah, and I'm not sure it's possible for the usual journalistic standards to really apply when reporting on this stuff. He tries, but there's only so many people in the military, none of them definitive, that will tell you the US has set up a torture prison in Iraq.

[Eduardo X]

Learn to spell the site of torture and rape, btw.

I thought I'd add nothing and point out that transliteration, as is done with Arabic words, cannot be spelled wrong. That's why Usama bin Ladin is the same person as Osama bin Laden.

[wahoo]

Yeah, and I'm not sure it's possible for the usual journalistic standards to really apply when reporting on this stuff. He tries, but there's only so many people in the military, none of them definitive, that will tell you the US has set up a torture prison in Iraq.

Bullshit.

Hersh used the Taguba report as a source to collaborate his prison report. That's called journalism. You can assemble sources and use them to back up your statements. Others like Danner used Taguba and the Red Cross as sources.

This latest allegation has how many sources? The "I'll get back to you" is a bunch of crap. Hersh, when he chooses to be, is a solid journalist. But he's also a bombthrower.

[Anti-Bunny]

You're doing a great job of proving my point, Jason.
He tries, but there's only so many people in the military, none of them definitive, that will tell you the US has set up a torture prison in Iraq.
And, guess what? 'Copper Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Green)' was complete bullshit.

[Anti-Bunny]

Hersh used the Taguba report as a source to collaborate his prison report. That's called journalism. You can assemble sources and use them to back up your statements. Others like Danner used Taguba and the Red Cross as sources.

Agreed. Hersh has been right a few times. That doesn't make for a believable source of journalism.

[Lizard_King]

And, guess what? 'Copper Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Green)' was complete bullshit.

"There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist."

[Jason McCullough]

Bullshit.

Hersh used the Taguba report as a source to collaborate his prison report. That's called journalism. You can assemble sources and use them to back up your statements. Others like Danner used Taguba and the Red Cross as sources.

Yeah, and I'm not sure it's possible for the usual journalistic standards to really apply when reporting on this stuff. He tries, but there's only so many people in the military, none of them definitive, that will tell you the US has set up a torture prison in Iraq.

This latest allegation has how many sources? The "I'll get back to you" is a bunch of crap. Hersh, when he chooses to be, is a solid journalist. But he's also a bombthrower.

Help me out here - are journalists forbidden from discussing things they're researching for potential publication?

[wahoo]

Help me out here - are journalists forbidden from discussing things they're researching for potential publication?


So our standard for journalists is that they can now discuss criminal allegations against Vice-presidents b/c they're RESEARCHING IT FOR POTENTIAL PUBLICATION!

How can you say this and every have the temerity to ever complain about someone accusing Obama of being a closet Muslim terrorist. Afterall, no doubt some rightwing journalist hack is researching Obama's terrorist roots for a potential publication. So it's ok for this issue to be discussed in public and say "I'll have the evidence in a year or two. But yes, Barrack Obama is a Muslim terrorist who was never born in this country. I don't need facts or evidence. I'm a journalist and I'm doing research."

I love how anything negative published about conversatives or Republicans is accepted without any critical thinking. But then how moronic are those red staters who believe what they hear from rightwing journalists or whatever.

Jason, how can you square your defense of Hersh with your criticism of folks touting that Democrats wanted to enact the fairness doctrine? Afterall, conservative journalists said Democrats were doing it. That's fair for them to mention right? Or is it only fair b/c if they're doing research for publication?

[Jason McCullough]

I have no idea whether journalistic ethics generally forbid talking about something you're researching that's potentially criminal activity by high politicians. I'm pretty sure they aren't forbid from talking about upcoming stories in general though.

Jason, how can you square your defense of Hersh with your criticism of folks touting that Democrats wanted to enact the fairness doctrine.

What, are you an innocent babe of 17, just stumbling onto this concept of credibility? They're not Seymour Hersh, that's the difference. He may not be right about this, but unlike random crank bloggers you can't dismiss him out of hand.

[Lizard_King]

I love how anything negative published about conversatives or Republicans is accepted without any critical thinking. But then how moronic are those red staters who believe what they hear from rightwing journalists or whatever.


That thing that's happening here, in this very thread? That's the critical analysis of the information so far. Relax, unclench. In retrospect, I would have just made a mental note and checked up on Hersh when and if he coughs up some evidence, because I've often made the same observation when faced with BUSHITLER CONSPIRACY THEORY #7674667 of the week that you just did.

[Pogo]

Should pentagon hit squads be under some other kind of command?

[Jason McCullough]

Slight bit of extra info (http://www.minnpost.com/ericblackblog/2009/03/11/7310/investigative_reporter_seymour_hersh_describes_exe cutive_assassination_ring) (torture allegation):


"Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us.
"It’s complicated because the guys doing it are not murderers, and yet they are committing what we would normally call murder. It’s a very complicated issue. Because they are young men that went into the Special Forces. The Delta Forces you’ve heard about. Navy Seal teams. Highly specialized.
"In many cases, they were the best and the brightest. Really, no exaggerations. Really fine guys that went in to do the kind of necessary jobs that they think you need to do to protect America. And then they find themselves torturing people.
"I’ve had people say to me -- five years ago, I had one say: ‘What do you call it when you interrogate somebody and you leave them bleeding and they don’t get any medical committee and two days later he dies. Is that murder? What happens if I get before a committee?’
"But they’re not gonna get before a committee.”

[Lizard_King]

Should pentagon hit squads be under some other kind of command?

It's more the command without oversight aspect. In virtually any context, that can lend itself to abuse. In the War on Terror as conducted by the Bush administration, there is no upper limit. To be fair, I think that's common across most administrations once they are given an excuse.

[quatoria]

That thing that's happening here, in this very thread? That's the critical analysis of the information so far. Relax, unclench. In retrospect, I would have just made a mental note and checked up on Hersh when and if he coughs up some evidence, because I've often made the same observation when faced with BUSHITLER CONSPIRACY THEORY #7674667 of the week that you just did.

I'm fairly certain Wahoo has been in a constant state of Clenchcon 1 since Obama's election, LK. Your advise is sound, but the anus, I do not believe she listens.