M.F.A'ers Holla Back

[McGraw McGraw]

So, I was thinking, this is a forum of informed, intelligent people. So, I'm curious: How many MFAs do we have in the house. I know that myself and Dean are denizens of that underworld, and I'm pretty sure I remember John Many Jars saying he graduated from poetry school (which is a fucking scarlet letter so far as I'm concerned).

My question is: how do we deal with that creative impulse once school is gone? Poetry consumes me right now, and I'm hoping for a few inspirational stories about being an artist and lifting kindergartners up to the basket for a slam dunk.

If not, I'll take a story about a fellow going all Dylan Thomas and howling at the moon.

[Mordrak]

I've got lots of creative impulses but very little momentum. That's about it. I don't have an MFA, but I was *this* close to going back to school for one two years ago. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not that I didn't.

[BennyProfane]

I worked on an MFA, completed everything including the thesis, and then discovered that not a single university I had applied to for doctoral programs in literature would even consider me. So I spent another year and switched to an MA in literature and theory, at which point pretty much the same universities loved me and wanted to pay my way.

Kinda lost my faith in humanity (or the humanities) at that point...

[Talisker]

My question is: how do we deal with that creative impulse once school is gone?

http://www.thedrinkshop.com/images/products/main/2877/2877.jpg

[McGraw McGraw]

I've got lots of creative impulses but very little momentum. That's about it. I don't have an MFA, but I was *this* close to going back to school for one two years ago. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not that I didn't.

If you have something glued into your skull, something that will kill you if you don't write it, an MFA is a good idea. It's also a good idea if you want a job (it being a terminal degree and all). But, seriously, if you go back to school, they will grab your momentum and slap it back on your chest.

I worked on an MFA, completed everything including the thesis, and then discovered that not a single university I had applied to for doctoral programs in literature would even consider me. So I spent another year and switched to an MA in literature and theory, at which point pretty much the same universities loved me and wanted to pay my way.

Kinda lost my faith in humanity (or the humanities) at that point...

Wow, you wrote the thesis and then switched? I bow to you, sir. You are an ironman. I'm curious, did the urge to publish still rise? I say publish because the urge to write is pretty much tattooed on our forearms.

http://www.thedrinkshop.com/images/products/main/2877/2877.jpg

If Evan could cure me, I might start robbing banks for beer money (rather, whiskey money).

[Mark Asher]

So, I was thinking, this is a forum of informed, intelligent people. So, I'm curious: How many MFAs do we have in the house. I know that myself and Dean are denizens of that underworld, and I'm pretty sure I remember John Many Jars saying he graduated from poetry school (which is a fucking scarlet letter so far as I'm concerned).

My question is: how do we deal with that creative impulse once school is gone? Poetry consumes me right now, and I'm hoping for a few inspirational stories about being an artist and lifting kindergartners up to the basket for a slam dunk.

If not, I'll take a story about a fellow going all Dylan Thomas and howling at the moon.

I think you get a job and work and write in your spare time. How many hours a day can you write poetry anyway? How many hours a week do you devote to actual writing right now? Elmore Leonard worked in advertising for years and got up early and wrote before work. Gene Wolf was the editor of some technical journal for many years while he wrote science fiction on the side. Glen Cook worked on an auto assembly line until he got retirement. These are people who all wanted to write so they worked it it around their day jobs.

Wallace Stevens...Ted Kooser...insurance execs. Stephen Dobyns, former newspaperman. Walt Whitman, Civil War nurse.

[McGraw McGraw]

I think you get a job and work and write in your spare time. How many hours a day can you write poetry anyway? How many hours a week do you devote to actual writing right now? Elmore Leonard worked in advertising for years and got up early and wrote before work. Gene Wolf was the editor of some technical journal for many years while he wrote science fiction on the side. Glen Cook worked on an auto assembly line until he got retirement. These are people who all wanted to write so they worked it it around their day jobs.

Wallace Stevens...Ted Kooser...insurance execs. Stephen Dobyns, former newspaperman. Walt Whitman, Civil War nurse.

Sir, you wound us. Especially the placement of Whitman and Stevens in that list, because all poets are insecure, I think, and visualize themselves as... I mean William Carlos Williams wrote poetry while driving his car on his way to house calls. The way in which you wound us, or rather I, is the appeal to poets/writers doing something else. I mean... christ... Christian Wiman, I think it's him, challenges the validity of the MFA for those very reasons. He says that the next Walt Whitman will not rise from an MFA program which to an aspiring poet is saying "you will not rise to the greatness that has already been." I tend to follow the Delmore Schwartz model of poetry that you can see in his short stories. There's always poetry to be written, so you spend the majority of your life staring at the place-mat while eating breakfast.

Ultimately though, I agree with you. A writer has to leave that ivory tower that is so, so comfortable. One of my best teachers put it this way: "If you want to be a writer, you need to go to a brothel or on safari." The problem us MFA people face is that we are pretty much trained solely for academia.

[Brad Grenz]

I'm in the process of trying to get in to an MFA program somewhere. Sent out the last of my applications a couple weeks ago and now is time for the waiting. Hopefully by fall I'll be starting my first graduate degree. That would be good cause my job search has gone exceedingly poorly since I graduated last May.

I had actually sent out a round of applications last year, but the situation was royally fucked by one of my writing professors who promised letters of recommendation and failed to deliver. That might have been fine had she not waited until literally days before the LAST school deadline to communicate this fact to me. So for some of the schools my application was simply incomplete, and for others I went from having a Pulitzer Prize winning author writing a letter on my behalf to a second philosophy professor. My application in general wasn't as strong as it could have been anyway owing to the fact I was busy with my Senior year at the time it was being prepared. I'm a lot more confident in my chances this time around.

[McGraw McGraw]

I'm in the process of trying to get in to an MFA program somewhere. Sent out the last of my applications a couple weeks ago and now is time for the waiting. Hopefully by fall I'll be starting my first graduate degree. That would be good cause my job search has gone exceedingly poorly since I graduated last May.

I had actually sent out a round of applications last year, but the situation was royally fucked by one of my writing professors who promised letters of recommendation and failed to deliver. That might have been fine had she not waited until literally days before the LAST school deadline to communicate this fact to me. So for some of the schools my application was simply incomplete, and for others I went from having a Pulitzer Prize winning author writing a letter on my behalf to a second philosophy professor. My application in general wasn't as strong as it could have been anyway owing to the fact I was busy with my Senior year at the time it was being prepared. I'm a lot more confident in my chances this time around.

Yikes, that's a messy situation to be in, but good luck to ya. Do you have a primary focus yet, genre-wise? Ackk, that's a messy word "genre." I'm asking if you've chosen a medium in which to express your thoughts. Like... poetry, fiction, creative non-fiction?

[Robert Sharp]

The way in which you wound us, or rather I, is the appeal to poets/writers doing something else.

Do they not teach grammar in the MFA program?

Seriously, though, it's a tough road. The MFAs I know teach writing and such. One of them is basically a full blown member of the English dept. and is not forced to only teach comp classes. She teaches upper level courses as well. Another, sadly, didn't get renewed this semester and is looking for work. But he was teaching classes as an adjunct until this semester. These are colleagues, which means they aren't presented as statistical evidence in any way. I'm just noting that you can get some decent jobs out there that don't involve just teaching freshman comp.

Unfortunately, higher education is being hit VERY hard by the economy. Recent data in the Chronicle suggests that some 50% of colleges and universities are freezing hiring right now. A much smaller percentage (but still much larger than is comfortable) are actually letting professors go, sometimes tenured and tenure-track professors! We had a recent faculty meeting about this, and we're lucky insofar as we have dodged the worst of this so far (i.e. we're still hiring and constructing and such). But it's a really bad time to be looking for a job in academics, I'm sorry to say.

[Brad Grenz]

Yikes, that's a messy situation to be in, but good luck to ya. Do you have a primary focus yet, genre-wise? Ackk, that's a messy word "genre." I'm asking if you've chosen a medium in which to express your thoughts. Like... poetry, fiction, creative non-fiction?

I'm applying as a poet, but I want to pursue both poetry and fiction once I'm actually in school.

[McGraw McGraw]

Do they not teach grammar in the MFA program?

Seriously, though, it's a tough road. The MFAs I know teach writing and such. One of them is basically a full blown member of the English dept. and is not forced to only teach comp classes. She teaches upper level courses as well. Another, sadly, didn't get renewed this semester and is looking for work. But he was teaching classes as an adjunct until this semester. These are colleagues, which means they aren't presented as statistical evidence in any way. I'm just noting that you can get some decent jobs out there that don't involve just teaching freshman comp.

Unfortunately, higher education is being hit VERY hard by the economy. Recent data in the Chronicle suggests that some 50% of colleges and universities are freezing hiring right now. A much smaller percentage (but still much larger than is comfortable) are actually letting professors go, sometimes tenured and tenure-track professors! We had a recent faculty meeting about this, and we're lucky insofar as we have dodged the worst of this so far (i.e. we're still hiring and constructing and such). But it's a really bad time to be looking for a job in academics, I'm sorry to say.

I'm of the social epistemic camp when it comes to grammar. As for my own writing, I just... commas confuse me; also I see now that appeal was the wrong word.

I agree about the current state of higher education. My school is being slammed right now (one of the reasons that I won't be able to trek to AWP (sad smiley)). I wasn't sure if English departments were being laid into so hard, because we managed to keep everyone, but I'm sorry to hear that they are. I suppose, though, Comp teachers are necessary to a university, so long as they work for slave wages and share a desk with four other people.

All this talk about higher ed has me dizzy. Screw it, I'll work in the coal mines.

I'm applying as a poet, but I want to pursue both poetry and fiction once I'm actually in school.

Very nice. The world needs more poets. I can imagine that the more competitive schools (Iowa, Virginia, et al) would try to focus you in one genre, and hopefully, you can find somewhere that lets you roam. But, good luck! I know these are the staring at the mailbox days, which is to say, these are the months in between application and acceptance. If you really want to be anal about it, I know Seth Abramson does a blog that lists the date that someone has received word from an MFA program. He lists pretty much every MFA in the country.

[Robert Sharp]

I'm of the social epistemic camp when it comes to grammar. As for my own writing, I just... commas confuse me; also I see now that appeal was the wrong word.


No. 'I' is the wrong word in the quote I pulled. It should be 'me'. As stated, you are saying that you wound all of you.

[Robert Sharp]

I agree about the current state of higher education. My school is being slammed right now (one of the reasons that I won't be able to trek to AWP (sad smiley)). I wasn't sure if English departments were being laid into so hard, because we managed to keep everyone, but I'm sorry to hear that they are. I suppose, though, Comp teachers are necessary to a university, so long as they work for slave wages and share a desk with four other people.


I suppose much depends on the kind of job you want. I think adjuncts will become more common and tenure-track positions will become less common, both over the next few years and in the long run. In fact, some are now arguing that tenure is an endangered species. Let's hope I get tenure before that happens and can be grandfathered in!

But if you are willing to be an adjunct while teaching comp classes, that will still be an option. The pay is abysmal though. I mean it is truly, truly awful. I would not recommend being an adjunct as a legit career option for anyone. It's the worst kind of slave labor, as you say. It's also quite draining and many of the people who do it lack the energy to write creatively on top of it.

[McGraw McGraw]

No. 'I' is the wrong word in the quote I pulled. It should be 'me'. As stated, you are saying that you wound all of you.

Me see. I figure I'll just crawl into my favorite hidey-hole "poetic license," though. I am, however, ashamed that seven years of English education have not paid off.

I'm still on the fence about appeal for stylistic reasons.

[Mark Asher]

Why not get certified to teach and teach high school? That's if you really want to teach, I mean. High school kids need good teachers and you get summers off to write. You get nice holiday breaks too. And the pay is better than the pay you get for being an adjunct.

Or figure out how to live as cheap as possible and work part-time somewhere to pay the bills and devote yourself to writing.

[Eduardo X]

I applied to 10 schools this year for a Poetry MFA. I just sent out my last application Thursday, and am waiting with so much apprehension.
If I don't get in (which is a big possibility), I have so many plans and will be happy. If I do get in, it will probably upset my life more than anything I've ever done, and yet I'm so excited!
My main thing is that I need all tuition waived and a decent stipend or else I won't attend. I can't leave a really good job AND take on a huge amount of debt. My partner will not have it.

[Rimbo]

What does an MFA at a university write about? Studying, over-worked as a TA, intra-departmental politics, fighting for grant money? They're what you'd know about. Oh, wait, I know: You write with angst about the fact that you haven't experienced anything real yet.

The best books I read about war were written by warriors. The life you live defines the words you write. So go live.

[Eduardo X]

What does an MFA at a university write about? Studying, over-worked as a TA, intra-departmental politics, fighting for grant money? They're what you'd know about. Oh, wait, I know: You write with angst about the fact that you haven't experienced anything real yet.

The best books I read about war were written by warriors. The life you live defines the words you write. So go live.

Just so you know, people live outside of universities BEFORE they attend. And believe me, craft is something that can and should be taught. It makes even the most mindless crap better and more interesting to read.

[MattKeil]

Ultimately though, I agree with you. A writer has to leave that ivory tower that is so, so comfortable. One of my best teachers put it this way: "If you want to be a writer, you need to go to a brothel or on safari." The problem us MFA people face is that we are pretty much trained solely for academia.

This is why I decided not to continue school after my bachelor's in English. Of course, then I ended up working in television. I'm waiting for the day the well-spoken men in black suits with patches on the elbows come and take my English degree back.

The best books I read about war were written by warriors who hired real writers to write the books for them.

Fixed. Not strictly true in all cases, but pretty close.

[noun]

Maybe you're just a poor writer. Just because you want to do something doesn't necessarily mean you'll ever be able to develop the skills to be good at it. If you're a writer, then write. Don't make excuses why you can't, just sit down and do it. It's one thing to have a writing fantasy, but to make excuses why you can't do it, especially when you seem to be unable to grasp certain basics like punctuation, well, maybe it's just not the thing for you. And it sounds like deep down, you've probably considered this option as well.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Sir, you wound us. Especially the placement of Whitman and Stevens in that list, because all poets are insecure, I think, and visualize themselves as... I mean William Carlos Williams wrote poetry while driving his car on his way to house calls. The way in which you wound us, or rather I, is the appeal to poets/writers doing something else. I mean... christ... Christian Wiman, I think it's him, challenges the validity of the MFA for those very reasons. He says that the next Walt Whitman will not rise from an MFA program which to an aspiring poet is saying "you will not rise to the greatness that has already been." I tend to follow the Delmore Schwartz model of poetry that you can see in his short stories. There's always poetry to be written, so you spend the majority of your life staring at the place-mat while eating breakfast.

Ultimately though, I agree with you. A writer has to leave that ivory tower that is so, so comfortable. One of my best teachers put it this way: "If you want to be a writer, you need to go to a brothel or on safari." The problem us MFA people face is that we are pretty much trained solely for academia.

I were you, no offense meant, I'd start with trying to be less pretentious. That is a pretty overrated accompaniment to being in academia, or anywhere for that matter. Also, most people are insecure, much less poets. It's always been my opinion that using negative traits as defining characteristics for one's chosen field is kind of a cop-out. Additionally, this post of yours rambles on into self-contradiction and borderline parody:

I mean William Carlos Williams wrote poetry while driving his car on his way to house calls. The way in which you wound us, or rather I, is the appeal to poets/writers doing something else.

Looks like WCW wounded you, too.

I wish I had more to say, really. I'd rather I had some kind of advice here but the truth is...I love writing, but I myself decided long ago to pursue other goals for an occupation because I didn't want to end up where you are now. That doesn't mean it's hopeless, it just means it's hard. When I got a bit older, I began to form the opinion that loving what you do for a living is usually going to come with caveats (usually, money), and that the better bet is to do what you like for a living and do what you love for a hobby or perhaps lesser, secondary source of income. I don't want to sound trite but even though some people get to live the dream, most of us have to wake up eventually. The upside is that none of that actually means you've settled for less, not if you're really paying attention. And isn't that what writing and poetry is about to an extent, paying attention to what life is all about?

[Robert Sharp]

What does an MFA at a university write about? Studying, over-worked as a TA, intra-departmental politics, fighting for grant money? They're what you'd know about. Oh, wait, I know: You write with angst about the fact that you haven't experienced anything real yet.

The best books I read about war were written by warriors. The life you live defines the words you write. So go live.

This is a bit of an odd claim. Does your job define all the important experiences that you have? If you are an accountant, could you only write about accounting? Can video game makers not make fantasy games because they've never lived in fantasy worlds? I mean I hear this sort of thing a lot, but I'm not convinced that going to a university somehow keeps people from having interesting experiences, and not just before and after they go. There are lots of life experiences people can and do have in college. Plus, with imagination you can write on a wide variety of topics. Do you think Shakespeare actually killed kings and fought civil wars? Did Dante actually go to Hell?

[Mark Asher]

The MFA is about a two year gig. There's no reason for an MFA to get in the way of life experiences. A lot of life experiences can happen while you get an MFA. Then, two years later you're done, and you have every chance to get at any other life experiences.

My only concern about the MFA is for people getting it with the idea that it leads to decent paying jobs. It most likely won't. You do it because you want that two years to soak up writing and be around others who are also thrilled about writing.

[Mordrak]

Not all MFAs are in writing, but that doesn't make them any more useful. I should have figured that's what the emphasis would be given that there's so many writers on the board. Heh. :)

[McGraw McGraw]

I apparently screwed up and turned this thread into a one man pity-party. That was not my intent. I was aiming for self-deprecating but wound up coming off as that dude who tells his deepest secrets to strangers on the street. Also, I don't want to devalue the MFA; it's one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I think I've produced something of worth.

To respond to noun, if doubt had ever entered my mind, I'd be somewhere else entirely. I am a poor writer, but I'm a damn good poet. And punctuation is for elitist, arugula-loving pussies. I possess an extreme self-confidence in one area: my skill as a poet.

And... of course, my pretentiousness. I'm a walking English professor stereotype, baby. But I can dig BillD's comment about toning it back a little. I'll try to take a few breaths before posting (as for writing, would you believe that I write about working class people and their ultimately unfullfilled ambitions?). And WCW didn't wound me so much as he failed to impress upon me. Now John Berryman, that dude stabbed me in the heart with a fucking stake.

To the point at hand, I was hoping for this to turn out like war veterans sharing stories as opposed to a group of people watching a guy fall to the ground sobbing.

Not all MFAs are in writing, but that doesn't make them any more useful. I should have figured that's what the emphasis would be given that there's so many writers on the board. Heh. :)

I hadn't even considered that! Now I'm curious. I've known a couple of MFA theatre guys, but my knowledge otherwise is pretty sketchy.

[Joel]

I'm a high school dropout and a professional writer. If you want to write more, write more. Worrying about inspiration and context and legitimacy is useless twat-gazing. If it's really important to you make the time to write. You need downtime away from writing to mull and sort ideas in the first place. No better place to dream than over the fry-oil vat.

[Rimbo]

Just so you know, people live outside of universities BEFORE they attend.

Not usually for very long.

And believe me, craft is something that can and should be taught. It makes even the most mindless crap better and more interesting to read.

I wholeheartedly agree, but teaching craft is not the primary purpose of a university. Universities exist primarily for research and educating future researchers, and anything practical taught is based primarily on the needs of those who happened to provide grant money.

This is a bit of an odd claim. Does your job define all the important experiences that you have? If you are an accountant, could you only write about accounting? Can video game makers not make fantasy games because they've never lived in fantasy worlds?

I didn't say that he should get a job. I said that he should get a life.

I mean I hear this sort of thing a lot, but I'm not convinced that going to a university somehow keeps people from having interesting experiences, and not just before and after they go. There are lots of life experiences people can and do have in college.

Yes, but most of those interesting experiences have to do with the fact that college is, for most all of us, the first time we've lived on our own out of the house, and not nearly as much related to the actual coursework. The "guy who's spent too much time at University" schtick is trite and cliché at this point.

Plus, with imagination you can write on a wide variety of topics. Do you think Shakespeare actually killed kings and fought civil wars? Did Dante actually go to Hell?

Interesting comparisons. Shakespeare was busy running an entire acting company, took stories that generally already existed and adapted them as would best sell his product. Dante was home-schooled, and his experiences with the politics of the day inspired much of the Inferno. So here, you've picked up on to examples which further demonstrate my point: These are not folks who sat around in University settings or low-end service jobs waiting for life to come to them.

I'm a high school dropout and a professional writer. If you want to write more, write more. Worrying about inspiration and context and legitimacy is useless twat-gazing. If it's really important to you make the time to write. You need downtime away from writing to mull and sort ideas in the first place. No better place to dream than over the fry-oil vat.

This. Although there are some places better than the fry-oil vat (or the laundromat, as Stephen King did). On the other hand, unless you're a hardcore Type A personality, you probably don't want to take up Neurological Surgery or something that by itself will keep you away from your family, either.

[Aeon221]

Play that funky music, white boy.

[Mordrak]

I'm a high school dropout and a professional writer. If you want to write more, write more. Worrying about inspiration and context and legitimacy is useless twat-gazing. If it's really important to you make the time to write. You need downtime away from writing to mull and sort ideas in the first place. No better place to dream than over the fry-oil vat.

Spacing out over a fry oil vat sounds dangerous.

[Lunch of Kong]

MFA is an acronym for Master of Fine Arts.

[Aeon221]

MFA is an acronym for Master of Fine Arts.

As opposed to, say, Megaman's Fine Ass?

[MattKeil]

And punctuation is for elitist, arugula-loving pussies.

Perhaps, but knowledge of punctuation and grammar is probably the rarest talent among even those with English degrees, and being the guy who knows when to use the semicolon can make you valuable in a surprising number of business-related situations.

[Jonathan Crane]

Gene Wolf was the editor of some technical journal for many years while he wrote science fiction on the side.

Let's not forget his contribution to the magical process that gives us Pringles! He was an engineer before switching to editing the journal Plant Engineering. Prior to all that he was drafted and fought in Korea - the guy's had a pretty interesting life.

[McGraw McGraw]

Not usually for very long.

I wholeheartedly agree, but teaching craft is not the primary purpose of a university. Universities exist primarily for research and educating future researchers, and anything practical taught is based primarily on the needs of those who happened to provide grant money.



This is true in most cases. The way a creative writing department operates is a little different. The program banks on the idea that the students will get publications and bring more prestige to the program and that they'll work as Graduate Assistants. The boon from students succeeding is that it draws more applications and more application fees. And I'd argue that the purpose of any type of graduate degree is to teach specialization. An MFA does this by teaching craft.

I didn't say that he should get a job. I said that he should get a life.


True. And I hope to do so.

Yes, but most of those interesting experiences have to do with the fact that college is, for most all of us, the first time we've lived on our own out of the house, and not nearly as much related to the actual coursework. The "guy who's spent too much time at University" schtick is trite and cliché at this point.

Interesting comparisons. Shakespeare was busy running an entire acting company, took stories that generally already existed and adapted them as would best sell his product. Dante was home-schooled, and his experiences with the politics of the day inspired much of the Inferno. So here, you've picked up on to examples which further demonstrate my point: These are not folks who sat around in University settings or low-end service jobs waiting for life to come to them.


You neglect the writer-scholar. Look at T.S Eliot; I don't believe he spent a day outside of some university or another. Hell, he hadn't had a meaningful romance until he was like 26, and he still wrote "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock." Granted, Eliot doesn't really prove my point because he's T.S. Eliot and an exception no matter how you look at him, and I'm veering wildly off-topic.

I'll take the middle-ground. Studying in a university is good up until a point. That point is dependent upon the individual. For me, it came within a semester of graduation.

Perhaps, but knowledge of punctuation and grammar is probably the rarest talent among even those with English degrees, and being the guy who knows when to use the semicolon can make you valuable in a surprising number of business-related situations.

True, true. I hope I didn't come off as a caveman when it comes to grammar; I sprinkle some extra commas around at times, I tend to write long sentences full of independent clauses, but I'm very concerned with what I say and how I say it... usually.

[Aeon221]

Hell, he hadn't had a meaningful romance until he was like 26, and he still wrote "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock." Granted, Eliot doesn't really prove my point because he's T.S. Eliot and an exception no matter how you look at him, and I'm veering wildly off-topic.

Yes, how amazing that a sexually frustrated young man was able to write a poem about being a sexually frustrated middle aged man with only the aid of his astounding talent and sexual frustration.

[Rimbo]

This is true in most cases. The way a creative writing department operates is a little different. The program banks on the idea that the students will get publications and bring more prestige to the program and that they'll work as Graduate Assistants. The boon from students succeeding is that it draws more applications and more application fees. And I'd argue that the purpose of any type of graduate degree is to teach specialization. An MFA does this by teaching craft.

All good stuff. I think specialization isn't completely required until you get to the PhD program -- it happens at the Master's level, but it's not the end goal.

True. And I hope to do so.

And to be fair I don't mean it quite so harshly as the phrase "get a life" usually connotes, but rather that writing itself is just a container, and your experiences are the contents. Even among the good writers of fantastic situations, they're either doing an allegory or parable of something based in real life, or they're writing a tale based on their strong familiarity with legend.

[The Bitter Cynic]

MFA is an acronym for Master of Fine Arts.

I thought it meant Major Fucking Assholes.

[McGraw McGraw]

I thought it meant Major Fucking Assholes.

To be precise, it means Master of Fucking Assholes.

[Aeon221]

To be precise, it means Master of Fucking Assholes.

I knew you liberal arts folks were slow, but I didn't think you needed a Masters to fuck assholes. The more you know!

[McGraw McGraw]

I knew you liberal arts folks were slow, but I didn't think you needed a Masters to fuck assholes. The more you know!

You misunderstand. Like I said earlier, it's about specialization and craft. We labor past Astroglide and a fistful of spit and into transcendental consideration of the art. The anus abides. The anus will always abide.

[awdougherty]

I have an MFA in film production. Would love to teach college someday but I'm not sure when that will happen

[noun]

To respond to noun, if doubt had ever entered my mind, I'd be somewhere else entirely. I am a poor writer, but I'm a damn good poet. And punctuation is for elitist, arugula-loving pussies. I possess an extreme self-confidence in one area: my skill as a poet.

You have a thick skin and a sense of humor. That's good! You'll need both of those if you're serious about being a professional poet. I honestly don't know if it's even possible to be a professional poet in this day and age, but fuck it, live the dream! Although I suggest you do two things in the meantime: 1) Search this board for all posts by Gordon Cameron lamenting his career. Learn from his mistakes, of which there are many. 2) Find an editor. Either hire one or find a friend willing to correct your prose for free. Learn from their instruction.

[Rimbo]

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1310 For some reason... this reminds me of this comic.

[McGraw McGraw]

You have a thick skin and a sense of humor. That's good! You'll need both of those if you're serious about being a professional poet. I honestly don't know if it's even possible to be a professional poet in this day and age, but fuck it, live the dream! Although I suggest you do two things in the meantime: 1) Search this board for all posts by Gordon Cameron lamenting his career. Learn from his mistakes, of which there are many. 2) Find an editor. Either hire one or find a friend willing to correct your prose for free. Learn from their instruction.

Thanks for the kind words. I have read the Gordon Cameron saga and was afraid that this would devolve into that. I mean no disrespect to G.C., but I figure all of us trying to walk the creative rope wind up here eventually.

I don't believe there are any professional poets left... short of Maya Angelou and a few ex Poet Laureates. I am lucky in that I'm friends with a couple fiction writers who can set me straight when I start my meandering.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1310 For some reason... this reminds me of this comic.

For what it's worth, I follow Questionable Content, and I identify most strongly with Will. His naïveté is an inspiration.

I have an MFA in poetry from the Iowa Writers' Workshop, and I published many poems in journals before, during, and for a little while after my time there. Then I lost interest, pretty much entirely.

Well, that's a downer. Also, grats on the Iowa degree; I've heard that's a competitive place, but my program's lone Iowa graduate (professor) tends to be a bit... is there a noun for someone who pawns his problems off on other people? I have but one serious question: three-line stanza or two?

[Wisbechlad]

Well, I didn't know what an MFA was either... I think there is one creative writing course in UK (UEA, set up by Bradbury) but even English Lit is viewed with some concern - it gets Anglo-Saxon and a healthy dose of linguistics added to try and make it a bit more academic. One college at Oxford (Queen's) refuses to offer it on the basis it isn't a real degree.

I think an argument against teaching writing as a craft is that it will most likely produce craft work? Not that there is anything wrong with that, but, yes, a good editor has got to be more important?

Only professional poet I knew of was Seamus Heaney, who was professor of poetry at Oxford when I was there. But yeah, looks like the only way to do it is to go the academic route and publish as a sideline - Heaney taught Eng Lit for years until he was famous enough to get by on on his poetry rep alone. Those I know who have written books have done so as a sideline to journalism careers.

T.S. Eliot worked as a publisher no?

[McGraw McGraw]

Well, I didn't know what an MFA was either... I think there is one creative writing course in UK (UEA, set up by Bradbury) but even English Lit is viewed with some concern - it gets Anglo-Saxon and a healthy dose of linguistics added to try and make it a bit more academic. One college at Oxford (Queen's) refuses to offer it on the basis it isn't a real degree.

I think an argument against teaching writing as a craft is that it will most likely produce craft work? Not that there is anything wrong with that, but, yes, a good editor has got to be more important?

Only professional poet I knew of was Seamus Heaney, who was professor of poetry at Oxford when I was there. But yeah, looks like the only way to do it is to go the academic route and publish as a sideline - Heaney taught Eng Lit for years until he was famous enough to get by on on his poetry rep alone. Those I know who have written books have done so as a sideline to journalism careers.

T.S. Eliot worked as a publisher no?

I believe the UK has a couple of writing programs. The University of Bath... or maybe it's Bath-Spa (or something... my memory is suspect at best, and I couldn't find their ad) shows up a lot in Poets and Writers Magazine and advertises an MFA program. They advertise kind of like a scam, but they're there.

In response to the craft concern, it's more about being able to construct a line than being an engineered McPoem expert. I'm convinced that the only things a writer can learn from school are technical but necessary. And an editor for me would be like mithril to a dwarf.

You're right about T.S. Eliot; I get hung up on his pre-Anglicism career.

[Robert Sharp]

But being a publisher or a doctor or whatever isn't that different from being in college or staying in academics. Perhaps I'll be seen as biased, since I am in academics, but I don't think that teaching or being a student prevents you from having true experiences that are worth putting in writing. In fact, I have more free time than most professionals. I only work 8 months of the year, and I never have 8 hour days (well, when grading I do, but it's still on my schedule).

Now, if the point is just that taking classes in and of themselves can't make you a good writer becaue the classes aren't actual experiences, I can get behind that. But there seems to be an implication that people in academics really are in an Ivory Tower, as though we don't go to the store, socialize, or have adventures like everyone else. That's the part I think is wrong. You don't have to live in a brothel or go to war to be a great writer. There are tons of interesting things to write about.

[Aeon221]

But being a publisher or a doctor or whatever isn't that different from being in college or staying in academics. Perhaps I'll be seen as biased, since I am in academics, but I don't think that teaching or being a student prevents you from having true experiences that are worth putting in writing. In fact, I have more free time than most professionals. I only work 8 months of the year, and I never have 8 hour days (well, when grading I do, but it's still on my schedule).

Now, if the point is just that taking classes in and of themselves can't make you a good writer becaue the classes aren't actual experiences, I can get behind that. But there seems to be an implication that people in academics really are in an Ivory Tower, as though we don't go to the store, socialize, or have adventures like everyone else. That's the part I think is wrong. You don't have to live in a brothel or go to war to be a great writer. There are tons of interesting things to write about.

A day in the life of an academic -- now with extra angst and poetiness!

I got up.
I got out of bed.
The scent of day old socks lingered in the air. I dragged
my comb across my head. It caressed my scalp like a hooker caresses her third trick, like
an enjambed line caresses the mind.

I went downstairs and had a cup. Of joe. Today's emotions are but the scurf of yesterday's. Dreary life, lived by the clock, the schedule. Looking up, I noticed I was late.

I grabbed my coat. Grabbed my hat. Made the bus in seconds flat.
In the town they come and go, talking of Metallica. Modern marvels. Futurism.

I came. I went upstairs.
I had a smoke. Somebody spoke. I went into a dream.

Academia.

[Eightball]

My sister has an MFA (printmaking), and holy christ is art a tough field to make a living in. She works harder than either my dad (who is a physician) or I (lawyer) do...and makes far less...even with as good a position as she can in all reality attain (tenure-track professor at a major university).

[John Many Jars]

As opposed to, say, Megaman's Fine Ass?

Master of Fire Ants.

[Dean]

I'm actually glad, as the holder of an MFA and an academic, that I've stayed out of this thread.

Non-academics love to whack on academics for not knowing anything. Hey, it's fun, it's part of America's distrust of intellectuals, and everyone walks away feeling superior. I've done it myself, because MFA's actually make shit, and PhD's just study shit that other people make, so there, now don't I feel superior?

But I guess I just jumped into the pig pile.

Enjoy!

[John Many Jars]

Non-academics say it about academics. Traditional academics say it about MFAs. MFAs say it about the MFA programs that rejected them. Graduates of those programs say it about each other.

Meanwhile, no one outside the ego chain cares. So live with your poems (or whatever) and don't sweat it!

[Orinoco]

Personally, I want to be a Master of Crude Arts.

[Aeon221]

I'm actually glad, as the holder of an MFA and an academic, that I've stayed out of this thread.

Non-academics love to whack on academics for not knowing anything. Hey, it's fun, it's part of America's distrust of intellectuals, and everyone walks away feeling superior. I've done it myself, because MFA's actually make shit, and PhD's just study shit that other people make, so there, now don't I feel superior?

But I guess I just jumped into the pig pile.

Enjoy!

Well we certainly don't love whacking them off.

[Anaxagoras]

Personally, I want to be a Master of Crude Arts.

Possible specializations:
Fart jokes involving fat women
The Three Stooges (the Curly years)
Andrew Dice Clay
Yo Momma

[Robert Sharp]

Well we certainly don't love whacking them off.

That's not how you felt last night.

[John Many Jars]

Yo Momma's pants so big she gots to iron them on the driveway.

[Aeon221]

That's not how you felt last night.

NO I WILL NOT MAKE OUT WITH YOU!

[Eduardo X]

I'm actually glad, as the holder of an MFA and an academic, that I've stayed out of this thread.

Non-academics love to whack on academics for not knowing anything. Hey, it's fun, it's part of America's distrust of intellectuals, and everyone walks away feeling superior. I've done it myself, because MFA's actually make shit, and PhD's just study shit that other people make, so there, now don't I feel superior?

But I guess I just jumped into the pig pile.

Enjoy!
You ignore the pressing issue:

Was it worth it?

[Jon Rowe]

I have been thinking of pursuing an MFA in acting.

But, then again... I don't like not having money.

[Mark Asher]

I have been thinking of pursuing an MFA in acting.

But, then again... I don't like not having money.

You have the right attitude! You do it not with the expectation that it will lead to a well-paying job, but because you want to!

It's the academics and artists who pursue the graduate degrees and then are surprised there are no teaching positions at universities who need better advice when they applied for grad school.

[Wisbechlad]

I believe the UK has a couple of writing programs. The University of Bath... or maybe it's Bath-Spa (or something... my memory is suspect at best, and I couldn't find their ad) shows up a lot in Poets and Writers Magazine and advertises an MFA program. They advertise kind of like a scam, but they're there.

In response to the craft concern, it's more about being able to construct a line than being an engineered McPoem expert. I'm convinced that the only things a writer can learn from school are technical but necessary. And an editor for me would be like mithril to a dwarf.

You're right about T.S. Eliot; I get hung up on his pre-Anglicism career.

Never heard of them - turns out they became a university in 2005, before that were a College of Further Education (junior college I guess in US speak)

As I said, only one I know of is UEA in Norwich, which Bradbury set up. He's a good example of an academic who wrote good books about academia (History Man) Ian McEwan & Kazuo Ishiguro are apparantly graduates, which I didn't know - I like Ishiguro's work.

Of course, it is a belief firmly held in UK (so probably not true) that the best/ most interesting english literature is coming from "the periphery" of English speakers, rather than UK/USA (e.g. Naipaul, Rushdie)

[McGraw McGraw]

You have the right attitude! You do it not with the expectation that it will lead to a well-paying job, but because you want to!

It's the academics and artists who pursue the graduate degrees and then are surprised there are no teaching positions at universities who need better advice when they applied for grad school.

Very well put. I've been thinking about something a friend of mine said the other day, though. He said that the reason he wasn't going back for his PhD is because he figured that if he did, he'd end up someplace that didn't need his skills as a teacher. One could view that as youthful idealism, but it was refreshing to hear, and it put my own whining into perspective.

[Robert Sharp]

I don't understand what your friend meant, McGraw. Could you elaborate a bit? Do you mean the grad school wouldn't need it? Or the job in academics he might get? If the latter, why would they hire him? If the former, why would it be relevant?

[Wisbechlad]

Quite. Plus there is no rule that Phd's have to teach where their skills aren't needed. One of my high school maths teachers was a Phd who had been a university fellowship/ lecturer, but decided that he enjoyed teaching a broader range of maths to a younger age group, and that it would have more impact (by the time someone has chosen to read maths at university, it is pretty much a given that they enjoy and are good at maths). Actually, quite a few had doctorates - but that was also because it was a public school, and almost certainly paid better than university.

[Mark Asher]

I remember talking to the chair of the history department at the college I attended one time, and he mentioned that high school teachers with his equivalent years of experience made as much as he did. I believe you can do ok teaching in public school. It's just that people who want to be writers want to emulate the writers they know, who more often than not teach at the university level.

[McGraw McGraw]

I don't understand what your friend meant, McGraw. Could you elaborate a bit? Do you mean the grad school wouldn't need it? Or the job in academics he might get? If the latter, why would they hire him? If the former, why would it be relevant?

Sorry, I was a little vague there. The way he's approaching his career prospects is that if he had the advanced degree, he could find a job at a university that wasn't... emerging(?). He could get a position easier (not that easy, of course) from a grad school that wouldn't need him. Smaller universities will hire MFA recipients to survive. He feels like going on the job market without a PhD will lead him to a school that needs him in particular. He wants to grow a grad school. However, I hadn't thought about it from the view of him being able to land a job where he's needed easier with a PhD. He's accepted the fact that he doesn't want a PhD and might not even be able to get one since there are few programs out there.

I can understand the perspective that he's making excuses to avoid that extra chunk of years and debt, but I was refreshed that he'd gotten beyond the gloom and doom of kvetching about graduation and his place in the academic world. He's trying to let his life define his career rather than the other way around.

The reason I responded to Asher with the anecdote was that I think my friend had (or got) his shit together a lot sooner than a lot of artists in academia did (myself included). It's hopeful for incoming graduate students who didn't get any good advice to understand that they probably won't teach at Cornell but might be able to grow a program.

Christ, that last bit came off as practically maudlin.

[McGraw McGraw]

Never heard of them - turns out they became a university in 2005, before that were a College of Further Education (junior college I guess in US speak)

As I said, only one I know of is UEA in Norwich, which Bradbury set up. He's a good example of an academic who wrote good books about academia (History Man) Ian McEwan & Kazuo Ishiguro are apparantly graduates, which I didn't know - I like Ishiguro's work.

Of course, it is a belief firmly held in UK (so probably not true) that the best/ most interesting english literature is coming from "the periphery" of English speakers, rather than UK/USA (e.g. Naipaul, Rushdie)

I thought that that university was trying too hard, but I hope that they are something more than a diploma mill. UK authors who aren't American ex-pats are completely foreign to me unless they're pre-Romantic. I'm criminally unacquainted with that tradition. I take that back; I know a bit about Auden.

American literature might well be under appreciated (again, the UK tradition is largely foreign to me), but the people from that periphery have amazingly interesting stories and perspectives.

[Robert Sharp]

That clears things up a bit. You mean that he's worried that with the PhD the market will define his options MORE than without it? In other words, without a PhD, he'll have a lot more options because places are looking to exploit (can't think of a better word there) MFAs. So he'll be able to choose his place of work a bit easier.

That may be true, but MFAs are rarely offered tenure-track jobs from what I have seen, and without a tenure-track job, you will always be low on the departmental totem pole. This would make it hard to create a grad program for that school, since they are more likely to put an associate (or higher) level professor in charge of such a thing. OTOH, the full time MFA I mentioned above is a valued, full member of the English department, who has a lot of say. I just don't think that's the norm.

For better or worse, the PhD carries a lot of weight.

[Brad Grenz]

What do universities think about people with graduate degrees in disparate fields? I'm planning to spend the next couple years on this creative writing MFA, but after that I'd like to pursue a PhD in Philosophy.

[Robert Sharp]

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Are you asking whether having an MFA AND a PhD in philosophy will help you get a teaching job in philosophy? I would say that as a rule, no it wouldn't. However, if your philosophy degree is about philosophy of literature or in some other way connected to your MFA, it might help a bit. It won't make you way better than other candidates, but it would give you an edge if all things are equal. However, there aren't a ton of positions with that specialty. The most common jobs are in ethics, especially applied ethics. Ethics is my specialty, which helped me get a job. However, most PhDs are also in ethics, so there is that to consider.

Think of it this way: There may be 1000 people applying for 20 ethics jobs vs. 100 people applying for 2 ancient philosophy jobs. I'm making those numbers up, but you get the idea.

I should add, however, that the biggest factors are what school you go to for your graduate work and what teaching xp you get while there. Getting my PhD at Vandy helped on both counts. Also, when I was applying for my job last year, BEFORE the economy went bust and hiring went down, over 130 people applied for the job that I now have. That's not at all unusual. Some jobs have 300+ applicants (like the University of Vermont, or some similar choice location). Most of them are either close to their PhD (ABD) or already have it, too. So most are qualified, not just applying on a lark. Keep that in mind when weighing up the risks, Brad.

Since I've gone through the job market process several times, let me know if you have any questions.

[awdougherty]

If people don't mind giving me some of their thoughts, I have an MFA in film production, I currently work "in the industry" (but not really - advertising) as a film editor. I would like to teach at the university level someday. Is it easy to make the jump from the real world to academics like that? Does real world experience matter?

As for why you get an MFA, I specifically got it knowing that it would cost me a lot of money and may end up never getting used. Looking back, I think I made the right decision, but I use my degree in my job. If I had never gotten into film, some regret may have crept in as I paid my somewhat large student loan bill every month.

[Jon Rowe]

You have the right attitude! You do it not with the expectation that it will lead to a well-paying job, but because you want to!

It's the academics and artists who pursue the graduate degrees and then are surprised there are no teaching positions at universities who need better advice when they applied for grad school.


It is a tough choice, because I know that acting is the hardest profession you can ever do... but it is what I love doing.

It is a choice between being funny, or being funny for a living.

I still don't know what I want to do.

[Robert Sharp]

Does an MFA increase your chances of getting a job acting? I thought that was mainly based on auditions and such. Do credentials help?

[awdougherty]

My gut reaction would be that the degree can't help you in the least, I guess hopefully it would let you be that much better at your craft.

[McGraw McGraw]

Does an MFA increase your chances of getting a job acting? I thought that was mainly based on auditions and such. Do credentials help?

In addition to helping out with craft, I'd say that an MFA in acting would allow you to form the connections that you need to work in acting.

[Jon Rowe]

Well, here is what I was told from people that have gotten an MFA in acting. (Including some industry folks my professor knew and had come in to talk to our class)

1. Helps you get better
2. Helps you make connections with other actors/directors/industry people
3. Looks very good when doing an audition

A lot of people that don't have an MFA would think that the 3rd is not very important, but it really can be important, especially as an unknown actor. If you have an MFA, that means that you spent 3+ years of your life dedicated to acting, that you are not just some dude off of the street who might not know anything, and might let you down.

While it is not essential, it is a nice tool to have.

The job is like 90% audition and 10% resume. But that depends on what you are looking for in terms of jobs. I would say that hollywood is a lot more "look" based when finding jobs, whereas New York is more acting resume based.

But, I don't want to be some movie star or anything, I love the stage, and doing live performances. Doing movies/video feels very cold and inorganic to me as an actor. I guess a sketch comedy type deal would be fine in front of a camera, but movie/tv acting seems bleh to me.

I live off of audience feedback, and that isn't there when you are in front of a camera.

But that is just me.

If there is one word you need to know when trying to break into acting, it is "Networking" You have to know everyone, and have positive contacts with everyone. So, in the future if that person is asked if they know anyone that could help with something, they remember your name.

We had Keegan Michael Key (from Mad TV) come talk to our acting class (he is a friend of our professor, they met while working on their MFAs) and he said he got the Mad TV gig thanks to some contacts his friends had. They apparently talked him up enough to get him an audition... then bam!! He got a job.

[Eduardo X]

I got my first call today. I am in at U of Illinois!

It is too bad I will be missing out on living life for 3 years. Dems the breaks.

[McGraw McGraw]

I got my first call today. I am in at U of Illinois!

It is too bad I will be missing out on living life for 3 years. Dems the breaks.

Congrats. I don't know much about the U of Illinois's poetry professors, but I'm pretty sure that it's a good school. Wait... never mind. Brigit Pegeen Kelly's there. I'm now sure that it's a good school. If you end up going there, good luck. The first year's the easiest. The second year's the hardest. The third year's the hardest to focus on. That's been my experience, at least.

Also, AWP's in Chicago this year and on Thursday. If you've got registration, rock that. Art Spiegelman's going to be there. How cool is that? It makes me wish I'd applied for funding.

To try to turn my initial question into more than self-parody, what do you other writers do about recovering after a long project? To be clear, I'm thinking book-length project here, and I don't mean recovery as in therapy. I'm trying to ask whether you guys steam on into another project or catch your breath.

[Anders Hallin]

Does an MFA increase your chances of getting a job acting? I thought that was mainly based on auditions and such. Do credentials help?
People see what they expect, though. That is also true for aesthetic performances: if they expect someone to be a good actor, they're that more likely to see their performance as being good acting.

[Jon Rowe]

That is a good point. If someone is expecting an MFA quality performance, and they get it. That would make much more of an impression than some nobody walking in and doing an audition. The MFA was using his acting skills learned to do a good job, the random person was just doing a good job, could have been a fluke.

But, when it comes down to it... it is 90% audition. But, anything that gives you an edge is a good thing.

[McGraw McGraw]

A day in the life of an academic -- now with extra angst and poetiness!

I got up.
I got out of bed.
The scent of day old socks lingered in the air. I dragged
my comb across my head. It caressed my scalp like a hooker caresses her third trick, like
an enjambed line caresses the mind.

I went downstairs and had a cup. Of joe. Today's emotions are but the scurf of yesterday's. Dreary life, lived by the clock, the schedule. Looking up, I noticed I was late.

I grabbed my coat. Grabbed my hat. Made the bus in seconds flat.
In the town they come and go, talking of Metallica. Modern marvels. Futurism.

I came. I went upstairs.
I had a smoke. Somebody spoke. I went into a dream.

Academia.

Having given it about a week, I feel that I have some suggestions for your poetry. I respect that this is an imitation of Eliot, but I feel you could've done more with the interplay between line and syntax. Your work with slant rhymes is commendable, but they suffer because of your prosey line. I offer this to help you understand how you might approach something like this in the future, but I regret that I lost many of the Prufrock similarities:

I got up and out of bed.
The scent of day old socks
lingered in the air. I dragged
my comb across my head.
It caressed my scalp like a whore
on her third trick, like a line,
enjambed, smoothes.

I went downstairs and had a cup
of joe. Today's emotions are the scurf
of yesterday. I live by the clock,
the schedule. Looking up, I noticed I was late.
I grabbed my coat, my hat, made the bus
in seconds flat.

In the town the people come and go,
talking of Metallica, marvels, and Futurism.

I arrived. I went upstairs.
I had a smoke.
Somebody spoke.
I went into that dream:
Academia.




Thanks for the word scurf, though. I'll keep it next to staledrunk in my dossier.

[Aeon221]

Never, never, never, never, never!

[Mark Asher]

A college professor described that line as the most perfect iambic pentameter line ever. I think he said, "Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever."

God bless Shakespeare. I saw Twelfth Night last weekend on stage and I'm seeing Hamlet this weekend. I'd be seeing Henry the Fifth also, but I have a birthday party to go to. This is my year of live Shakespeare!

[Jon Rowe]

Henry the 5th is kind of bleh, you aren't missing much. Shakesy's history plays aren't the most exciting.

Henry the 5th is the giant battle epic though... but a lot of theatre groups steer clear of this play because it is so hard to portray the battle on stage well. It is also the third (I think) in a line of plays. It is really cool to see them all in a row, and follow prince hal from childhood to kingdom.

[Aeon221]

A college professor described that line as the most perfect iambic pentameter line ever. I think he said, "Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever."

God bless Shakespeare. I saw Twelfth Night last weekend on stage and I'm seeing Hamlet this weekend. I'd be seeing Henry the Fifth also, but I have a birthday party to go to. This is my year of live Shakespeare!

It's from King Lear, referring to the death of his daughter Cordelia. The line is as I wrote it out. It's a pretty depressing part of the play, where Shakespeare fucks with the audience to an incredible degree. We're given hope that Cordelia will survive three (!!!) times in quick succession, before the eventual (final) death of both her and Lear.

It's pretty famous because, as your professor said, it's the most perfect example of blank verse out there.

[Wisbechlad]

I've a very soft spot for Henry V, as it was a set text. It isn't up there with Henry IV pts 1 & 2, but it is a good play ne'ertheless. Plus it works well with different spins (i.e. the ultra patriotism of Oliver's wartime film, or can be shown as "war is hell") But I defy any Englishman not to get shivers down their spine in the St Crispin's speech - "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers" etc. Plus you get pantomine French to boo at!

Even cooler is to see/read the history plays in sequence (I've only read them this way unfortunately) Henry IV is an uneasy king because he is the usurper of Richard II, you then have Henry IV pts 1 & 2 of him dealing with the consequences, and the growth of Hal into the "perfect king" (Henry V). Then it all turning to shit in Henry VI parts 1-3, until the "anti-king" (Richard III) is done in.

RSC sometimes does the full cycle of eight plays. Oh well, something to go do/watch in retirement

Given that the play (Henry V) doesn't actually depict the battles in any scale (maybe 5-6 characters on stage at a time, and no fighting scenes) not sure why it is a giant battle epic.

The films do add battle scenes, but that is because they can. Shakespeare wrote for the stage, and as you say, stages don't do battles. So nor does he - he does scenes within the context of a battle though (e.g. Richard III - "My kingdom for a horse")

[Jon Rowe]

RSC sometimes does the full cycle of eight plays. Oh well, something to go do/watch in retirement

Given that the play (Henry V) doesn't actually depict the battles in any scale (maybe 5-6 characters on stage at a time, and no fighting scenes) not sure why it is a giant battle epic.


I was lucky enough to see the RSC in stratford perform Henry V, it was rather good. I am not saying that the play is full of fighting scenes, but the whole play revolves around a giant war and battle. And the RSC production I saw had a large scale battle scene (several, actually). The whole point behind Shakespeare is to see how the director/actors portray the words, and quite often the small parts that are alluded to in shakespeare's plays (the battle scene here) get fleshed out on stage to add a new element. The RSC production added in battling during a lot of the dialogue in the play.

Also Fllewellyn (sp?) was really well done and comical. Though he was played a tad too seriously near the end of the play. I think the most interesting part of the story is how Henry V turns on his old life ruining his former friends. (This is especially cool to see with IV parts 1-2 in succession) But, compared to most of his other works Henry V is kind of blase'

[Dean]

I was lucky enough to see the RSC in stratford perform Henry V, it was rather good. I am not saying that the play is full of fighting scenes, but the whole play revolves around a giant war and battle.

I was lucky enough to see Branagh's RSC production, which featured a giant copper wall with ladders built into it that was used for all sorts of things.

During the "Once more into the breach" scene the wall went up to about waist high as Good King Hal yelled from behind it. Three guys came rolling through the breach, swords drawn, then the wall fell, trapping the other actors backstage. The warriors remained poised for action as the wall strained up to knee height, then fell again.

At this point there was deadly silence, then the Chorus (who was watching the entire play from a corner of the stage) broke in and said, "A bit of patience and I'm sure Good King Hal will appear."

We waited, and finally Branagh and the rest came running onstage to thunderous applause and finished the scene.

[Jon Rowe]

The RSC does a damn fine job with their productions. There is a really good theatre company in Wisconsin (American Players Theatre) and they do some of the best Shakespeare I have ever seen... not to mention the shows are done outside. They have a really cool space for acting. Seeing MacBeth on a full moon night with the crickets and frogs creating a chorus in the background was one of the best plays I have ever seen. I desperately want to return to London for the theatre... I saw so many amazing shows when I was there... including Lord of the Rings: The Musical.

[Dean]

It was just nice to see that the RSC has technical snafus from time to time just like the rest of us mere mortals.