What's the story with Mass Effect's DRM?

[Papageno]

Did they at least remove the install token counter at some point?

The game sounds interesting, but I really don't want to have to worry about uninstalling every copy when swapping hard drives/changing systems to quasi-insure that I might be still able to use one of the install tokens if I want to revisit the game in a couple of years. So I'm hoping they have plans to remove the DRM at some point.

[roBurky]

Well, the good news is that you don't need to worry about uninstalling. Bad news is that this is because doing so does not give you back your install token.

Unless this has been changed since I last took an interest in this. I think EA were saying they were going to be adding that feature at some point.

[Midnight Son]

Used 360 copy FTW!

You can't say this enough: Fuck EA.

[Mike O'Malley]

Used 360 copy FTW!

You can't say this enough: Fuck EA.

As a complete 360 virgin-

Is there any reason NOT to buy a used 360 game? On PC I'd be concerned about the serial number causing problems with online gaming and so forth.

[Midnight Son]

As a complete 360 virgin-

Is there any reason NOT to buy a used 360 game? On PC I'd be concerned about the serial number causing problems with online gaming and so forth.

So far the only thing to look out for is the Rock Band ACDC pack and Rock Band 2. Both have onetime use numbers on them to download tracks.

I'll let someone else answer about shooters but I don't think so.

[Cubit]

Used 360 copy FTW!

You can't say this enough: Fuck EA.

While I share your opinion about DRM, EA is just one of many publishers that use it on the PC these days.

[Papageno]

Ordinarily I'd go ahead and play it on the 360, but I heard the improvements in the PC version's interface made it the one to play if possible.

What's the board's position on buying the retail version and using a crack to remove the DRM? I use no-CD cracks with legit copies all the time but this is a bit more involved because the standard site to find such a crack doesn't have it since I gather that the DVD isn't required to be in the drive. That makes me very leery of seeking such a crack out given virus/malware concerns.

[Midnight Son]

While I share your opinion about DRM, EA is just one of many publishers that use it on the PC these days.

EA deserves a special place in hell for their many nefarious deeds. DRM is only one of them.

[Midnight Son]

What's the board's position on buying the retail version and using a crack to remove the DRM? I use no-CD cracks with legit copies all the time but this is a bit more involved because the standard site to find such a crack doesn't have it since I gather that the DVD isn't required to be in the drive. That makes me very leery of seeking such a crack out given virus/malware concerns.

Buying a new copy is not the way to stick it to the man.

[Papageno]

Buying a new copy is not the way to stick it to the man.

This is true. It's a shitty situation to be in, no doubt. Of course there are a billion other games to play as well, I suppose. I'm certainly not hurting for entertainment options.

[ydejin]

Used 360 copy FTW!

Buying a used copy is not the way to ensure that quality RPGs continue to be made.

[Midnight Son]

Buying a used copy is not the way to ensure that quality RPGs continue to be made.

Not my problem. I also buy used books, cars and occasionally DVD's. I haven't single handedly killed those industries yet.

[Staff Sergeant]

Not my problem. I also buy used books, cars and occasionally DVD's.

OMG literature, automotives, and movies are d0med!!11!eleven

[Midnight Son]

OMG literature, automotives, and movies are d0med!!11!eleven

That's right! And I helped! Muwahahahahahahahahah!!!


(I eagerly await, as I have for so many years now, the reason Game Developers think They Are So Special.)

[Papageno]

Let's face it, it's not (mostly) about fighting piracy, it's about fighting the used market and getting legit customers to fork over more money every couple of years for (essentially) the same content. That's what it's really about. That combined with the trend toward "forever minus 1 day" (so as to technically be constitutional) copyright is going to kill the culture, eventually.

[Midnight Son]

Let's face it, it's not (mostly) about fighting piracy, it's about fighting the used market and getting legit customers to fork over more money every couple of years for (essentially) the same content. That's what it's really about. That combined with the trend toward "forever minus 1 day" (so as to technically be constitutional) copyright is going to kill the culture, eventually.

You are absolutely correct. It certainly killed PC gaming for me. I hope Civ V is infection free, or it's truly the end of an era for me.

[ydejin]

I also buy used books, cars and occasionally DVD's. I haven't single handedly killed those industries yet.
It's all about collective action Midnight Son. You're a liberal you should know that.

[Midnight Son]

Consoles games are doing great, secondary market and all.... so.... it's greed, plain and simple. Much as I can't stand Gamestop the video game market would be much smaller without them.

(Mighty morphin' DRM thread!)

[Midnight Son]

It's all about collective action Midnight Son. You're a liberal you should know that.

Collectively then, those are healthy markets. Used items should be even more popular now, in the Great Recession.

[malkav11]

Not only are there PC interface and graphical improvements, shorter loading times, and so on, but PC owners get the first (and so far only) DLC for free.

[wildpokerman]

Collectively then, those are healthy markets. Used items should be even more popular now, in the Great Recession.

How do you define healthy market?

[Vesper]

While I'm not a big fan of the DRM on principle, I'm extremely happy about having a game that doesn't require the DVD to play.

[Rolercam]

While I'm not a big fan of the DRM on principle, I'm extremely happy about having a game that doesn't require the DVD to play.

Can someone please explain this one to me because I truely don't get it.

I got my start as a gamer back on the grand old Apple IIe. As a result I've seen all the different copy protections come in and ultimately fail. I can say with absolute certainty that putting the disc in the drive is the easiest one the player has ever dealt with. Why do so many people have such a problem with it? Are you using them as frisbees for small dogs with sharp teeth? Using them as costers? Not putting them away? Is it because console gamers do the same thing? What?

The only time I ever had any trouble was with Starforce. I do not believe its just luck that everything else has run well.

Since we're talking about copy protection maybe someone from the industry can answer this question. Every copy protection has proven to be a failure yet you insist on using it again and again. Why? Didn't anyone ever teach you why its stupid to put all your eggs in one basket?

[Vesper]

I've been gaming since 1983 with a Commodore 64, so I am also familiar with the concept of "disk = game." The problem I have with modern games is that I'm forced to insert the disc for no other purpose than copy protection. On a C64/Apple, it was reading data. On a modern game? It serves no purpose other than to piss me off while it checks a security sector when the entire game contents exist on my hard drive.

Due to my short attention span, I tend to switch between games a lot. Plus, I'm spoiled by a large number of games being available on Steam where I also don't have to worry about discs.

[Coca Cola Zero]

So far the only thing to look out for is the Rock Band ACDC pack and Rock Band 2. Both have onetime use numbers on them to download tracks.

Gears of War 2 also has a one-time use code for the flashback map pack and publishers are going to increasingly use this sort of thing in the future, but generally speaking you can buy current and old used games without worrying about missing any content.

[Nezz]

What's the board's position on buying the retail version and using a crack to remove the DRM?
Don't ask, don't tell.

[Midnight Son]

Oh wait. Civ IV Colonization uses Securom 7x. I guess that means the next Civ will use something worse. End of an era. Dumbasses.

[scotthal]

Oh wait. Civ IV Colonization uses Securom 7x. I guess that means the next Civ will use something worse. End of an era. Dumbasses.

Diablo 2 used SecuROM 4! Discuss!

[Midnight Son]

Diablo 2 used SecuROM 4! Discuss!

Easily cracked and didn't fuck with your hardware like the stupid shit they're doing now. I guess they either don't understand or care that some of us PC owners don't like anyone fucking with our hardware. Imagine.

[Cubit]

Midnight, you sound like you belong to a militant anti-drm group of some kind. PC gamers have always had to deal with some type of DRM. Have you always been this angry?

Like the changing state of DRM in digital music distribution, PC gamers are gonna just have to wait as publishers slowly realize that harsh DRM is not the best way and doesn't stop piracy. In the meantime, why deprive yourself of quality games?

[Midnight Son]

Midnight, you sound like you belong to a militant anti-drm group. PC gamers have always had to deal with some type of DRM. Have you always been this angry?

Like the changing state of DRM in digital music distribution, PC gamers are gonna just have to wait as publishers slowly realize that harsh DRM is not the best way and doesn't stop piracy. In the meantime, why deprive yourself of quality games?

Dude, I'm fed up with it. I've played PC games since the early 80's. I never minded looking up a word in a manual, or code wheels. And you could resell your games like other media. There's always been piracy but only in the last few years have the ham handed attempts to stop it ruined the PC gaming world.

I'm simply not going to spend money supporting this draconian shit. Period. I can only install a game three times? I must have an internet connection to play your game? You want to install all kinds of invasive drivers and shit? No. Go to hell. (Not you, the publishers.)

[Chuck]

I've installed most every game that has some sort of DRM (Bioshock, Mass Effect, AAA game of the moment) and I can't really see how it has harmed my computer or my experience playing these games. Sure, it could be phoning home to Russia and spitting out all the weird little things I've seen and done on my rig (Pron!), but WTFC (who the fuck cares). It still runs great and never crashes.

This rig will be replaced with a new one, and that rig will be stuffed full of cool games that will most likely put nipple clips on my OS and cock rings on my CPU, but once again: WTFC. As long as I get to play System Shock 3 and Deus Ex 3 and whatever AAA title our gaming overlords decide to bestow on us, I'll be happy.

[Staff Sergeant]

I can sympathize with this but there are plenty of developers who aren't shoving such garbage down our throats. Valve and Stardock come to mind. (Valve does have Steam but Steam's pros greatly outweigh its cons).

[scotthal]

Easily cracked and didn't fuck with your hardware like the stupid shit they're doing now. I guess they either don't understand or care that some of us PC owners don't like anyone fucking with our hardware. Imagine.

Understood, and I'm on your side. I was actually hoping to provoke baseless speculation as to the DRM in Diablo 3. SecuROM is slowly forcing me out of the PC gaming hobby. I'm hoping to make a new and inexpensive hobby of baseless speculation.

I'm simply not going to spend money supporting this draconian shit. Period. I can only install a game three times? I must have an internet connection to play your game? You want to install all kinds of invasive drivers and shit? No. Go to hell. (Not you, the publishers.)

Agreed. If I invited you into my house and you carved your initials into my furniture, I wouldn't invite you back. Similarly, when your software resorts to filesystem and registry corruption in a pathetic attempt to keep me from managing my own PC, your software is not welcome on my PC.

[Midnight Son]

I can sympathize with this but there are plenty of developers who aren't shoving such garbage down our throats. Valve and Stardock come to mind. (Valve does have Steam but Steam's pros greatly outweigh its cons).

I like Stardock's games. I don't care for Steam and what Valve has done to stop the secondary market for their games.

Game publishers will be very sorry if they are able to stop the secondary console game market. They'll find out trading in games funds new game purchases. But suits don't listen. After all, they know everything already.

[Cubit]

and that rig will be stuffed full of cool games that will most likely put nipple clips on my OS and cock rings on my CPU

quote of the night :)

anyway, i guess the costs are just different for people. for midnight, the various costs of allowing drm on his system outweighs the possible enjoyment that the game w/ drm would bring. for chuck, that is obviously not the case.

i dislike drm, but my dislike for it does not outweigh my fondness for a good game.

[RobotPants]

Dude, I'm fed up with it. I've played PC games since the early 80's. I never minded looking up a word in a manual, or code wheels. And you could resell your games like other media. There's always been piracy but only in the last few years have the ham handed attempts to stop it ruined the PC gaming world.

I'm simply not going to spend money supporting this draconian shit. Period. I can only install a game three times? I must have an internet connection to play your game? You want to install all kinds of invasive drivers and shit? No. Go to hell. (Not you, the publishers.)

So how many "ends of an era" is this for you now? Gotta be dozens at this point, right?

[cliffski]

Dude, I'm fed up with it. I've played PC games since the early 80's. I never minded looking up a word in a manual, or code wheels. And you could resell your games like other media. There's always been piracy but only in the last few years have the ham handed attempts to stop it ruined the PC gaming world.

I'm simply not going to spend money supporting this draconian shit. Period. I can only install a game three times? I must have an internet connection to play your game? You want to install all kinds of invasive drivers and shit? No. Go to hell. (Not you, the publishers.)

TBH the securrom on my copy of company of heroes is way more convenient and easy to use than having to look up a fucking color in a color chart or use a bloody lenslock.

Its just the internet megaphone effect that makes DRM seem so much worse now. if I had been able to endlessly swear on messageboards back when I had a ZX81, I'd be moaning about lenslock all the time. As it was, you just fumed a bit, got it to work and then enjoyed the game.

The interwebs just massively magnifies the perceived problems with DRM, where everyone is convinced securomn will rape your children if you install it.

[Midnight Son]

Its just the internet megaphone effect that makes DRM seem so much worse now. if I had been able to endlessly swear on messageboards back when I had a ZX81, I'd be moaning about lenslock all the time. As it was, you just fumed a bit, got it to work and then enjoyed the game.

The interwebs just massively magnifies the perceived problems with DRM, where everyone is convinced securomn will rape your children if you install it.

Oh bullshit. This shit is invasive and insulting. I'm opting out.

[cliffski]

bullshit how?
I WOULDN'T have posted on a forum about how lenslock was annoying?
I can't lose my copy of securom. I don't go half blind trying to use it. it takes no time to activate, and I don't need to do anything. I wouldn't even know it existed if not for DRM debates.
How is this more insulting than having to squint at the TV with a bent piece of plastic pressed onto your eyeball?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenslock

[Midnight Son]

bullshit how?
I WOULDN'T have posted on a forum about how lenslock was annoying?
I can't lose my copy of securom. I don't go half blind trying to use it. it takes no time to activate, and I don't need to do anything. I wouldn't even know it existed if not for DRM debates.
How is this more insulting than having to squint at the TV with a bent piece of plastic pressed onto your eyeball?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenslock

I guess you're not getting the points.

Here they are:

1) The whole idea of taking away a customer's right to resell a product is illegal.

2) No one has a right to install invasive software on my PC.

3) EULA's aren't enforceable. So all those ideas about the customer just renting a product are bullshit.

All that needs to be done is for someone to take these jackasses to court and prove it. All this other shit people blather on about is just whitewash.

That's the Big Picture as I see it. Arguing about piddly details is a waste of time until the underlying ideas are addressed.

[cliffski]

you could just not buy games with DRM on?
just saying...

[malkav11]

Old-school DRM like code wheels didn't mess with your ability to resell the game as long as you kept track of where the wheel or whatever actually was. This is something I find objectionable not as someone who has any intention of ever reselling any game I own (the only time I ever have was when I got rid of some Mac OS 7 games I could no longer reasonably run on my OS X computer.), but as someone who very much appreciates the opportunity to purchase games other people have resold. My budget is limited. Every discount helps.

I find it secondarily objectionable because it raises the real, if distant, possibility of that game never again being legitimately playable due to the demise of the activation servers. The videogame industry already tends to treat its history alarmingly cavalierly. I don't want anything to exacerbate this issue.

[Lux]

cliffski: You're making excellent points about conveniance of use the first time out of the box but pretty much ignoring the points of everyone else in this thread. Actually I think this pretty much demonstrates the relationship between the publisher and consumer in gaming these days. The publisher is focused on providing an extremely easy to use experience with an extremely short lifespan, to the point of building in not-so-subtle planned obsolescence with activation limits and cruddy support after the initial sales window. Rather than trying to take consumer constructive criticism into account they say:

"you could just not buy games with DRM on?
just saying... "

As a content creator I'm all about copyright and protecting the owners of intellectual property however planned obsolescence is just reducing product value without actually protecting the IP in any meaningful way. Actually it decreases the probability of the art having any sort of lasting effect on the medium as a whole because no one will be able to run the games in 10 years. Imagine if you could only install 'Fallout' 3 times? Or Half Life? or Warcraft 3? It's an anti content creator AND anti consumer move and really since I've never been, nor do I plan to be a shareholder in EA or Ubi there's no upside for me or most of the populace.