Left 4 Dead PC or 360?

[Chaplin]

So with the soon to be released Left 4 Dead, I am torn between the personally preferred Mouse and Keyboard versus the superior voice community and friend features on Xbox Live.

Granted if you already have a group of friends and/ or a clan that uses voice on PC, it can dilute the value of Live, but having only recently given the 360 a chance, I do really appreciate the ease of growing your friend pool and chatting it up with random strangers in games. Then again, I would miss my mouse in this what looks to be a very fast paced shooter as I never did quite get in the grove with thumbsticks.

Edit:
Please feel free to also post why

[Anti-Bunny]

Superior voice community and friends features? Steam has both of those, and they are very superior.

[BobJustBob]

PC of course. The 360 still doesn't have a single piece of the extra TF2 content, and when it is finally released it will cost money.

[idrisz]

I do really appreciate the ease of growing your friend pool and chatting it up with random assholes in games.

Fixes that for you.

FPS = PC for me.

[beloved one]

Superior voice community and friends features? Steam has both of those, and they are very superior.

He seems to be saying that XBOX LIVE friend features are superior because he actually has friends on XBOX LIVE.


Granted if you already have a group of friends ...

Personally, I prefer Steam's community, primarily because it has a lower ratio of random asshats... also, I have more computer friends, prefer mouse & kb, probably pc has significantly better graphics, so on and so forth.

[Chaplin]

Superior voice community and friends features? Steam has both of those, and they are very superior.

I was talking about this exact difference with a friend last week (and one of the reasons I decided to throw up a poll).

I am a pretty hardcore PC gamer. Before a few months ago I just saw console gaming as something I put up with for certain games. However, the more I mess with Xbox live the more I am feeling that PC gamers are more of a closed system. They have their friends, they have their chosen voice program, and they rarely step out of bounds. Such as numerous PC games that have built in VoiP that nobody uses because they are all logged in with 2 or 3 other guys using vent or TS.

With Live on the other hand (while you still get some of that) people are more willing to use the headset sometimes and you can build up a friend network a bit easier.

I don't think its some kind of innate social difference of users, but more that on Live it's the only way to really do things and everyone is plugged in automatically. Whereas friend networks are just more closed as there are other options for PC. If you try to build friends, you can have a really full friends list of chatty folks on 360 a lot quicker than game X through steam on the PC it seems.

Or so is my experience anyway. Could be a misconception on my part.

[Chaplin]

re: the random, um,... jerks... in games

True. Very true. And rather childish youths as well.

But then again, one of the things that make me feel the closed network thing, is I tried like hell to build a network of friends with BF2 and BF2142 without having to join a clan and it was like pulling teeth getting people to talk and work together.

With BF Bad Company I was originally irritated that console was my only option, but in retrospect, it has been a hell of a lot easier meeting people and getting good squads together out of repeat players. There are jerks and kids, but there are also a lot more adults that are willing to game it up and voice without having to have a secret handshake, dedicated server, and a webpage first.

[Alan Dunkin]

PC of course. Are you kidding?

--- Alan

[Sol Invictus]

It's a Valve FPS. Get it on the PC or you'll just be playing a bad game. Just look at TF2 on the 360. Is it any good? No. I don't think it even has weapon unlocks.

[intruder]

I hate people so I have no friends.

Since single player seems to be non-existant and I'm unsure it gets legs while joining some random server and fooling around like with DoD and TF2 I will wait for reviews / demo.

[JPR]

There is a Qt3 Steam community with over 100 people in it, 20+ of whom are on playing something pretty much every night. Between that and the quality of Valve's voice support, I don't think your argument holds water.

[Brakara]

One advantage the 360 version has, is local co-op (2 players).

[Rock8man]

It's a Valve FPS. Get it on the PC or you'll just be playing a bad game. Just look at TF2 on the 360. Is it any good? No. I don't think it even has weapon unlocks.

To be fair to Valve, they did a really good job (IMHO) with the Half Life 2 games on the 360, as well as Portal. I actually like the vehicle sections in Half Life 2 a lot more now, having played them on the 360. Plus they actually have done full analog controls for the 360, not just a straight port from the PC controls. For example, in the F.E.A.R. port by Day 1 Studios, they ported over the movement from the PC game, and so you get only two speeds (walk and run) and you get only 8-way movement (equivalent to pressing WASD keys), which felt horribly awkward on the 360 controller, where shooters usually have analog speed and analog movement. Valve did a good job porting over controls in this regard.

So if someone is interested in the Co-op elements of Left 4 Dead, I think the 360 version is a very safe option, judging by what Valve did with Half Life 2. (And Ep 1 and Ep 2).

EDIT: As for the poll, I'm waiting on a demo. I'm not convinced that this is a game worth buying on either platform yet.

[Dave Long]

PC, without a doubt.

[Eric Majkut]

If you play this on a console, you suck. :P

[Telefrog]

So if someone is interested in the Co-op elements of Left 4 Dead, I think the 360 version is a very safe option, judging by what Valve did with Half Life 2. (And Ep 1 and Ep 2).

But none of those games have co-op or multiplayer. Only TF2 has cooperative multiplayer elements and it's horrible on the 360. The level of support on the 360 for TF2 is practically nil. Despite the PR from Valve, they've pretty much abandoned TF2 on the consoles. I think any Steam TF2 owner will agree that the updates and unlockables have added a ton of value to that game.

I have Orange Box on the 360 as well as Steam. (One was a gift.) I loved playing HL2 and it's Episodes on the 360, but TF2 is really not great on the console.

[McCrank]

I picked 360, Im a achievement whore :( I liked how Fallout 3 had the achievements for PC, here is hoping more games start to follow suit, cause then I would definitely grab the PC version.

-Chris

[JPR]

You do know that Steam has its own achievement system?

[McCrank]

You do know that Steam has its own achievement system?

No, please explain?

[BDGE]

You do know that Steam has its own achievement system?

Yea, but that won't help my Gamerscore!

[WarrenM]

I'm perhaps a freak but I like TF2 on the 360. Definitely getting L4D on the 360 as well!

[Rock8man]

But none of those games have co-op or multiplayer. Only TF2 has cooperative multiplayer elements and it's horrible on the 360. The level of support on the 360 for TF2 is practically nil. Despite the PR from Valve, they've pretty much abandoned TF2 on the consoles. I think any Steam TF2 owner will agree that the updates and unlockables have added a ton of value to that game.

I have Orange Box on the 360 as well as Steam. (One was a gift.) I loved playing HL2 and it's Episodes on the 360, but TF2 is really not great on the console.

I'm guessing we're thinking of two different elements of L4D. There's the co-op campaigns, where the survivors are fighting to get out of town against AI controlled zombies, and then there's the competitive mode, where some zombies are controlled by other people. For the competitive mode, you have a point, but for the people only interested in playing through the campaigns with their friends (against the AI), either the game is fun out of the box, or it's not. I don't see how post-release support would change someone's decision there either way.

[Kalle]

I'm perhaps a freak

Yes. 5

[Pogue Mahone]

If you play this on a console, you suck. :P

It will definitely by 360 for me. I have a superior sound system on my TV, plus a more comfortable setup. I think the PC fanatics have a point that the community will probably last much longer on that platform the same way TF2 has, but I don't imagine I'll lose much sleep over that.

[beloved one]

For the competitive mode, you have a point, but for the people only interested in playing through the campaigns with their friends (against the AI), either the game is fun out of the box, or it's not. I don't see how post-release support would change someone's decision there either way.

The anticipation is that co-op mode would get extra maps and game features (weapons, unlockables and so on) as time went on, like TF2 enjoys. I'm not sure why you'd think changes would affect competitive mode only, since they use the same assets for both modes. It is less a question of whether or not its fun out of the box, and more of a question whether it can still be novel 6 months, a year, 2-3 years down the road.

I would guess the game is intended to have a huge amount of replayability (i.e. the very long time frame considerations are appropriate,) as zombie locations and challenge are scaled with player skill over time.

[IGJoe]

Does the PC version support the Games for Windows jazz? I'm leaning toward PC for two reasons, the first being due to my impression that L4D is a PC game at heart and the second is basically due to co-workers also getting this as PC so we can play on work game nights.

I'm an achievement whore at heart and was happy that Fallout 3 did the Games for Windows thing and let me add achievement points to my Xbox Live account. If L4D does the same it'll be a win win for my point whoring heart!

[JPR]

The Steam Community service is a direct competitor with Games for Windows, so I don't think Valve is going to be including GFW support in any of their products any time soon. That said, Steam does offer its own achievement system as well as in-game chat and such. So the points won't carry over to your Live account, but you will still get popups and possible rewards for completing meta-objectives in game.

[Rock8man]

The anticipation is that co-op mode would get extra maps and game features (weapons, unlockables and so on) as time went on, like TF2 enjoys. I'm not sure why you'd think changes would affect competitive mode only, since they use the same assets for both modes. It is less a question of whether or not its fun out of the box, and more of a question whether it can still be novel 6 months, a year, 2-3 years down the road.

I would guess the game is intended to have a huge amount of replayability (i.e. the very long time frame considerations are appropriate,) as zombie locations and challenge are scaled with player skill over time.

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess I'm thinking of the campaigns as something similar to campaigns in other linear first person shooters, but the way you describe it, it sounds like the goal is to be more like Diablo 2, where you'd want to play through the campaigns over and over and over, with new twists being added to the same campaigns maybe because of randomness?

If its going to be the same maps every time, with only enemy placement changing (like Rainbow Six Vegas' Terrorist Hunts), and the replayability coming from DLC, then the DLC could just as easily be added to the 360, although, I hear you guys on Valve's track record with DLC on 360 not being great with regards to TF2.

I guess if I was to think back to Rainbow Six Vegas, we played Terrorist Hunt every Friday (on the 360) all the way until we had 'finished' each level. And by then, they introduced the first set of DLC maps, which we all bought and took a few months to finish (they were much tougher than the original maps that came with the game), and by then they released another set of maps for Terrorist Hunt, which we downloaded and played through until Halo 3 came out.

If the situation with L4D is analogous, we would have been fine if the additional maps hadn't been released for Rainbow Six. We could have switched to a different game once we were done with the maps that came with the game, and we certainly got more than our money's worth out of the game.

I guess the fundamental disconnect is that I keep thinking that if the experience is more like Terrorist Hunt, or a linear story campaign, then I don't really see a need to extend the game beyond the 20 or so hours that it's meant to entertain you for. However, if the experience is meant to be a more dynamic one, like with Diablo 2, where you experiment with different characters, have random maps, random boss placement, random monster configuration in each situation, then it's a different story.

[beloved one]

Some co-op detail from RPS:


John: One of the most important features of Left 4 Dead is the necessity that it be interesting to play repeated times. Despite a single play through of all four campaigns lasting about as long as the average console shooter, that’s not how it’s intended to be played. You’re meant to keep coming back, charging through each zombie-infested level again and again, in the company of your buddies.

So having had the chance to play through Blood Harvest and No Mercy before, going back to them gave me an important perspective. Despite there being certain key moments in each level, it wasn’t the same game again. And playing with different people (and in the case of playing with RPS, very different people) makes it a very different time.

I think that was possibly my big concern with Left 4 Dead, and it seems to have been taken care of. The Director, the omniscient controller of what happens in the game, seems genuinely capable of mixing things up in such a way that you can’t make cohesive plans.


http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/11/04/eight-hands-on-left-4-dead-impressions/

[Vincent19]

If I'm playing it on a console, I may as well be playing it with my feet.

PC, no question.

[Podunk]

PC for me!

[EvilIdler]

PC. For all the reasons listed in choice 1 and 2, minus Live.

[Rock8man]

PC. For all the reasons listed in choice 1 and 2, minus Live.

Off Topic question EvilIdler, I wanted to try that kind of setup one day.

I assume you use a wireless keyboard and mouse? Doesn't the keyboard get uncomfortable in your lap? The only time I tried using a keyboard in my lap, I didn't like it at all. Or is it one of those nifty really thin Mac keyboards that some of colleagues at work use? And what about the mouse? Do you just run that over the couch cushion next to you? Or do you have some kind of mouse pad sitting on the cushion next to you? Are you able to be really precise with the mouse with that kind of setup? I've never found a comfortable way to use the mouse, even on the side-arm of the couch. It's all too mushy and falling down all the time.

[JPR]

Having your mouse hand that low (on the couch next to you) is incredibly damaging to your hand and wrist. You'd be way better off with some kind of TV tray or sitting on the floor and using the coffee table.

[theborbes]

agreed. PC is the only way to go.

[merryprankster]

To be fair to Live, while there are a lot of asshats, I've also populated a pretty decent size friend list with people I really like playing with.

[Wheelkick]

Seeing what Valve did with TF2 on the 360 makes me want a decent PC again.
Valve - killing console gaming since 1998

[WarrenM]

What did they do? Maybe it's a case of what they didn't do? It seems OK to me. Is there a ton of new content that console users aren't getting or something?

[JPR]

Yes, there is.

[WarrenM]

That's shitty. Are they waiting on cert or something? How old is the new content?

[JPR]

Per wikipedia:


Since the release of Team Fortress 2, Valve has continuously released free updates and patches through Steam. Development of the new content has been confirmed for the Xbox 360, while development for the PlayStation 3 was deemed "uncertain" by Valve. The updates include new official maps and game modes, as well as tweaks to classes and new weapons that can be unlocked through the game's achievement system. Along with continued development from Valve, Team Fortress 2 is also being expanded by fans with the tools used to create the game. Valve has included some of the most popular community-created levels in these updates. The developers negotiated with Xbox 360 developer Microsoft to keep the Xbox 360 releases of these updates free, but Microsoft refused and Valve announced that they would release bundles of several updates together to justify the price. A current series of updates sees the classes gaining alternate weapons with different abilities. The medic, pyro, and heavy updates have been completed. Eventually, all classes will be updated. Valve has created a blog to keep players up to date with the ongoing developments in Team Fortress 2.

[Igor Muravyev]

Does Left 4 Dead have split-screen for 360?

[skyride]

One advantage the 360 version has, is local co-op (2 players).

Really? That makes my decision very easy. Nothing like playing with people in the same room.

[EvilIdler]

Off Topic question EvilIdler, I wanted to try that kind of setup one day.

I assume you use a wireless keyboard and mouse? Doesn't the keyboard get uncomfortable in your lap?

Nope, couch which doubles as bed. Nifty-thin Mac keyboard for regular use, with mouse resting on elevated handrest, but gamepad where I can. So I play Fallout 3 practically lying down, drooling all over :)

I use the 360 and computer(s) on the same table next to/in front of me. Win/Lin computer shares monitor with the 360 via a HDMI switcher. Total bachelor pad setup!

(Thank goodness for the stiffness and thickness of Game Programming Gems, or I'd have trouble with the mouse)

[Wheelkick]

Per wikipedia: yadayada about TF2 and the updates and the 360

Ok. If that's true and they release the content I will take back my previous statement.
But ONLY IF THEY RELEASE THE CONTENT!
Otherwise I will NOT!

[NuclearWinter]

Does Left 4 Dead have split-screen for 360?

Yes, it does.

I'll be getting the 360 version unless it turns out be a bad port and am forced to go with PC.

[MattKeil]

If you play this on a console, you suck. :P

God, you PC people are annoying.

360 for me due to a vastly larger pool of potential co-op players on my friends list.

[Pogue Mahone]

I considered putting this in its own thread, but considering I'm talking to the small subset of readers who are buying Left 4 Dead on 360, and also preordered the game, then this probably makes more sense tucked away in this thread. So anyway:

I took advantage of the preorder deal with Gamestop mentioned in the bargain thread a little while back, and last night got an email that the 360 Left 4 Dead demo will be available today, and includes a code for grabbing it. It apparently includes multiplayer (I think?) so if anyone else is in my situation and wants to give it a go tonight or this weekend (or until we get our copies of the actual game) look me up, gamertag is divedivedive.

[Brad Grenz]

I can't imagine what it would contain except multiplayer!

[Vincent_GC]

It contains 2 levels, both single and multiplayer. Co-op only it seems.

Which is fine, I love it for my 360. I didn't know you could get demo's earlier through redeem codes on it.

[Pogue Mahone]

I can't imagine what it would contain except multiplayer!

Well, you understand that in regards to this game, I don't really mean 'single player' in the usual sense. It's more like co-op with bots, or at least that's my understanding. I'll let you know once I've tried it.

[Pogue Mahone]

So I've downloaded and played through a bit of the demo. On single player, by the way, and as I had thought this involves three bots assisting your path through many many zombies to a safehouse. I only played the first act but it's great. I can't wait to try it with buddies, I hope some of you guys end up buying this for 360.

I'm impressed with the weapons, for one thing -- the shotgun has real power, and longer range than I am used to having in most games. It's obvious as someone pointed out in one of these Left 4 Dead threads that the living have all the power, but the undead have seemingly endless waves to throw at you, and at completely random moments as far as I can tell. It's very tense.

I did notice that individual zombies are pretty easy to pick off -- I realize that sounds obvious, but I left one building to a street exit and there were three zombies wandering along the other side of the street, maybe 30 or 40 feet apart. I was able to shoot them individually without the others picking up on it or attacking me, at least until I shot at them in turn. Kind of disappointing.

[mono]

God, you PC people are annoying.

360 for me due to a vastly larger pool of potential co-op players on my friends list.

You must be some sort of PC hermit. Between the Qt3 Steam group (399 members), the Gamers with Jobs group (758 members) or the Rock, Paper, Shotgun group (1,711 members) you'd probably be able to scrap together a game now and again. Does Live still have a friends cap, and not support community groups?

[BobJustBob]

There are already custom maps appearing for the PC version, splitscreen has been hacked in, and people have already modded the game to include even tougher difficulties and to allow more than 4 players.

360 lol

[Anti-Bunny]

There are already custom maps appearing for the PC version, splitscreen has been hacked in, and people have already modded the game to include even tougher difficulties and to allow more than 4 players.

Console players find free maps SOO ANNOYING!!!!!

[Shadari]

Console players find free maps SOO ANNOYING!!!!!
I thought it was aiming that they found annoying. ;)

[Rock8man]

PC version, splitscreen has been hacked in,

People play split screen on the PC? How on earth does that work? You plug in two mice and two keyboards? That's just bizarre. Or do you play with gamepads in that situation?

[DavidKaye]

There are already custom maps appearing for the PC version, splitscreen has been hacked in, and people have already modded the game to include even tougher difficulties and to allow more than 4 players.

360 lol

Christ, tougher difficulties? Expert is already a total clusterfuck. In a good way, I hasten to add.

[Anti-Bunny]

People play split screen on the PC? How on earth does that work? You plug in two mice and two keyboards? That's just bizarre. Or do you play with gamepads in that situation?

It seems to only work with two gamepads. 360 controllers (wired or wireless w/ recharge kit) work fine.

[NuclearWinter]

I've been playing the 360 demo with friends and it seems to work great, not a single moment of lag and the controls feel nice and precise.

Game is also hilariously awesome. We beat it first try on Advanced but haven't got through Expert yet, which is clearly the way to play.

[nabeel]

After having played hours and hours, I agree. Expert is the way to play it.

[DavidKaye]

On the whole PC vs 360 thing, I will say this about the PC: it's great having the QT3 group. Go on there, start an event for a Left4Dead pickup game and within seconds a bunch of people are there and ready for some zombie killin'.

[NuclearWinter]

Made it all the way through on Expert now, despite having a witch spawn right next to the machine gun nest/medical cabinet in the final room :)

[Staff Sergeant]

Who voted against zombies and for nazis?

[Iron Xides]

They probably voted for zombie nazis, if that helps any.

[Igor Muravyev]

I just picked up the demo today.. me and a few friends figured out how to play as the Infected and also how to bypass the 4 player limit, so an awesome 4v3 game ensued. It was basically the same as the normal gameplay (AI zombies still attack you, surviors still have objects, its not really a VS mode so much as coop except the AI gets human reinforcements) except that the Infected could spawn at any time as a hunter/boomer/shocker/tank.

Obviously the final game won't be exactly like that (I would assume there's respawn times), but it makes me wonder if it'll be similar to that? Can someone who has played the prerelease beta chime in?

[Eric Majkut]

On the whole PC vs 360 thing, I will say this about the PC: it's great having the QT3 group. Go on there, start an event for a Left4Dead pickup game and within seconds a bunch of people are there and ready for some zombie killin'.


Sorry about all the bouncing in and out earlier. I was trying to fix something with the game, and some other friends kept inviting me to their games. It was a bit of a mess :) I'm down for playing with you guys again sometime though.

[Rock8man]

I finally got around to trying the L4D demo on the 360 (I've already played it on PC), and I have to say, I'm pretty shocked at the difference in graphics. The 360 has seen much, much better looking games. On the PC, by default it selected the highest level details and 4xAA, which games don't usually default to on my system. And the game looked incredible. On the 360, the texture detail is about on par with the original Half Life 2, and the game doesn't really compare graphically with the likes of Bioshock, Call of Duty 4, Assassin's Creed, etc. I guess they had to dial down the detail since there's potentially so many zombies on the screen at once, which none of those games that I listed do. So maybe that explains why it doesn't look that great on the 360.

Anyway, after seeing the visual difference between the two, I'm going to have a really tough time settling for the 360 version. Which is unfortunate, since I didn't really enjoy the demo as a single player game, and my friends would only be willing to buy it for the 360. Grrrr. If only I'd never played the PC version. It just looks so much better.

[merryprankster]

Just played the demo on xbox (my PC sucks so bad it really has no hope) and I gotta say it's not really my thing. Think I'll wait for RE 5 for my coop zombie killin fix. Really cool idea though, I hope the game does well.

[ElGuapo]

Does the Steam version have the ubiquitous sound stuttering problem?

[NuclearWinter]

Having played both demos extensively and discovering that it actually runs quite well on my ancient PC, I'm now seriously considering getting both versions. Splitscreen on the 360 version is easily the most fun I had with either demo and makes it a must purchase (plus usual console comforts).

But now I also want the PC version for cool mods and joining QT3 games (graphical and control differences are very minor for me). Plus it's cheap at stores here.

[BlueJackalope]

I think I might be in the same boat as Nuclear Winter. Most of my work and meatspace buddies have a 360 and that's what's they'll play on.
...and there is the big leather couch, HD TV, surround sound, kitty-cat lap warmer combination that I can only get on the 360.

But, L4D is going to be on the PC for a loonnng time, with tons of Mods, so that's where I will settle.

[DavidKaye]

Does the Steam version have the ubiquitous sound stuttering problem?

Nope, not that I have seen.

[shift6]

Am I the only person who is waiting for a demo* before buying this game in the first place? It seems like most demo-discussion is just to determine which platform. I'm waiting to determine if I'll buy it at all.

*I realize the demo is now out, I just don't have time to try until next weekend.

[Marcin]

Am I the only person who is waiting for a demo* before buying this game in the first place? It seems like most demo-discussion is just to determine which platform. I'm waiting to determine if I'll buy it at all.

*I realize the demo is now out, I just don't have time to try until next weekend.

No, but it does appear that Valve is the new Blizzard as far as product hype goes. I blame the fantastic job they did with TF2 :P

I'm also on the fence; tried the demo for the first time last night. It was really fun the first two times, and then got samey. Not sure if that's worth full game price with all the other entertainment out there right now.

On the other hand, now's the time to get in on the 2 week multiplayer window. :/

[Pogue Mahone]

I found the demo to be extremely tense. No doubt that's in some part due to my interest in, and fear of, zombies. But I had to take breaks between sublevels, I was gripping the controller too hard. I like how hordes can charge you from seemingly anywhere at any time, there's no safety until the actual end.