The Ultimates

[Desslock]

...anyone reading this one? I'm really enjoying it, even though I never really liked the Avengers. I like it better than Millar's take on the X-men.

[Dirt]

Until the most recent issue, I was really enjoying this series. My only gripe until now had been how he changed Bruce Banner/Hulk from a man/beast driven by the loneliness of his childhood based upon how his father treated his mother and him to a man who's lonely cause his libido isn't satiated; the original Hulk just wants to be left alone, this ultimate Hulk can't get enough. He's gone from mentally/emotionally underdeveloped to psychotic. I certainly did not enjoy the respresentation of the Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne (is that still her name since she's Asian now?). But, I'll hold my breath until the next issue. Though I did think (wish) that this kind of dysfunctional storytelling had gone the way of the 1990's. Crap... Now I'm dissecting a comic book...

[Toddy]

I'm really starting to hate it. After the great start, Millar seems unsure where he's going with the entire concept. For starters, I don't know why every character in the Ultimate universe has to be so flawed. Going for added realism doesn't necessarily mean adding negative personality traits. In some ways, these "new" characters are as unrealistic as the old ones. It's also a little hard to buy that any of these self-absorbed losers would decide to fight crime anyways.

There are a lot of little things that bother me, too. For instance, what the hell was Millar thinking when he patterned so many of the characters after Hollywood stars? Nick Fury now looks exactly like Samuel L. Jackson? And what's with all the name-dropping crap? Having Betty on a date with Freddie Prinz Jr. in #5 was ludicrous and distracting--especially the section where the Hulk refers to the guy by name during a murderous rampage. Oh, and I could really have done without the Me-So-Horny Hulk, along with the Wasp pulling her top up to distract him. Sheesh. And people think that Kevin Smith is obsessed with juvenile T&A? Though I did like the pathetic ending with Desperate-You're-All-I've-Got-Betty Hulk.

[wumpus]

I could really have done without the Me-So-Horny Hulk
That's really funny.

[Desslock]

Well, it's the best selling comic these days, so I guess I'm not alone in liking it (although obviously popularity doesn't necessarily (or even often) mean quality.

>I'm really starting to hate it. After the great start, Millar seems unsure where he's going with the entire concept.

I think it's the only superhero comic, of any of the 'reboots' (Heroes Reborn, any of the other Ultimates, etc) that is actually effective at creating a world that seems to "realistically" respond to the appearance of beings with amazing powers. I don't find the characters unrealistically flawed - I find them realistically flawed (unlike the Stan Lee school of Achilles Heel superheroes, or anything ever done by DC/Mark Waid/etc.)

I'm also surprised at how different Millar is willing to make the characters from their counterparts in the traditional Marvel universe. The premise of the "Ultimate" books was apparently to distill the core characters down to their essence while stripping away continuity and additional fantastical elements (aliens, gods, time travel, alternate universes, etc.) -- but the characters in the Ultimates only superficially, if that, resemble their Marvel universe counterparts. Heh, I can understand people not liking such a radical change for the Hulk (although wait until they see Ang Lee's movie version), but all of the characters are pretty radically different. It's refreshing, and it doesn't feel like the remake that it is.

[Toddy]

Y'know, I agree with all of that. And as much as I love to bitch about the Ultimate Marvel Universe, I won't be cancelling any of the titles any time soon (well, I may change my mind if Bendis makes Spider-Man cry again). But it's almost like I'm rubbernecking. I'm not so sure that these are realistic characters as much as they are caricatures with one big flaw apiece.

And I'm not so sure what the point of that brawl between Hank and Janet in issue #6 was, unless it was to make readers feel sort of sleazy. Hank was sadistic by the end, and Janet was nasty and pathetic. The biggest thing that gets me about the whole Ultimates concept is that it's hard to believe that such people would risk their lives for strangers. Hank summons ants to eat his wife. Captain America kicks a helpless man in the face out of sheer rage and spite. Thor is willing to let thousands of innocents die because of politics.

Also, this is Hollywood-style realism. I'll accept that all the media presence would surround superheroes today, as opposed to when these characters were first introduced in the 1960s. But why do so many characters have to look like actors and actresses? And why do there have to be so many pop culture references? I can accept some, but not one every couple of pages. Freddie Prinze Jr. showed up again in #6, as does Procter and Gamble, Oprah, Howard Stern, Regis, FHM, Barbie, Playstation2--all in 22 pages!

[Rob_Merritt]

Over all, I am beyond thrill with The Ultimates. By far the best book Marvel is putting out.

/edit:
I wrote this on aint-it-cool news talk back, figure I would repost it here
The Ultimates is the best book Marvel is putting out at the moment. I think the venom being spewed towards it is mostly by some long time fans of certain characters in the book. I’m willing to bet that in the Charlton characters were left as they were in the Watchmen, fans would have called it "a shallow piece of juvenility masquerading as an adult story.” Yes, I am comparing The Ultimates to the Watchmen. While I don’t think in the long term Ultimates will live up to the power of the Watchmen story, it rivals in the quality of the characterization. At least in the way its making the heroes realistic. Honestly until issue 6 I was undecided about the Ultimates. I thought it was an enjoyable read but I wasn’t sure about its quality. With issue 6, I re-read the entire series and have decided that yes, the Ultimates is not only good but significant. 10 years from now, this book will be pointed to as the origin of the modern view of these characters.

[Anonymous]

"Well, it's the best selling comic these days, so I guess I'm not alone in liking it"

It's actually not the best selling comic. It's the best selling comic that's not an adaptation of 80s cartoon crap. The two top-selling comics this month were TRANSFORMERS adaptations, followed by a G-FORCE (BATTLE OF THE PLANETS) adaptation. Yikes.

[Rob_Merritt]

It's actually not the best selling comic. It's the best selling comic that's not an adaptation of 80s cartoon crap. The two top-selling comics this month were TRANSFORMERS adaptations, followed by a G-FORCE (BATTLE OF THE PLANETS) adaptation. Yikes.

However to be fair, those two are actually good books. Written well with attractive art.

[Toddy]

I wrote this on aint-it-cool news talk back, figure I would repost it here The Ultimates is the best book Marvel is putting out at the moment. I think the venom being spewed towards it is mostly by some long time fans of certain characters in the book.

I've never been a fan of any of the characters, yet I still find The Ultimates somewhat distasteful. That last issue was pretty horrific. Why does realism have to equal dark? Was it really necessary to make Giant Man a bipolar (get it? he gets big, he gets small, he gets happy, he gets depressed--sheesh) wifebeater to update him? Was it really necessary to make Thor a nutcase who realized his divine nature after a nervous breakdown? This stuff seems simplistic. We've got the old characters seen from a shrink's couch, with a single massive personality flaw apiece and faux edgy stuff like Nick Fury being black, the Wasp being Asian, and Tony Stark possibly being gay. Characterization could have been done by a focus group with assistance from some rights watchdog for the mentally disabled.

[Dirt]

I wholehearted agree with you Brett.

[Anonymous]

"Was it really necessary to make Giant Man a bipolar (get it? he gets big, he gets small, he gets happy, he gets depressed--sheesh) wifebeater to update him?"

I hope you're not forgetting that Hank Pym has been characterized as mentally disturbed for a lonnngg time. Remember when he became Yellowjacket and tried to kill his wife back in the Jim Shooter era? This isn't that much of a stretch...

However, maybe I agree with you about the upcoming storyline in which Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch are incestuous lovers. No kiddin'.

[Thierry Nguyen]

Well, that Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch stuff is already implied in his Ultimate X-Men run. Anyhow, Millar tends to be hyperbolic; he's said "terrible terrible things happen to poor Iceman" in reference to an Ultimate X-Men issue, and all that really happened was a simulation of Iceman got stabbed in the face during Wolverine's test run of the Danger Room. I wouldn't be surprised if this incest thing turns out to be more like a double-entendre than full out necking with each other.

Then again, he might make them KNOW EACH OTHER.

Though, the focus of the next storyline is supposedly an all-out Skrull invasion.

[Anonymous]

Maybe "Skrull" is quicksilver's pet name for his...

Well, you get the general idea. If Scarlet Witch named her thang "Kree," then we might have an all out Kree-Skrull war goin' on down thar!

[Desslock]

>We've got the old characters seen from a shrink's couch, with a single massive personality flaw apiece and faux edgy stuff like Nick Fury being black, the Wasp being Asian, and Tony Stark possibly being gay. Characterization could have been done by a focus group with assistance from some rights watchdog for the mentally disabled

Heh, I will admit, the jury's still out on where Millar is going with some stuff. You make some good points about it being Hollywood-style realism. Still, perhaps sadly, that is an improvement in realism over conventional superhero books.

On the personality flaws - I haven't really noticed anything different than the traditional books other than Banner's a mess. Pym was mucked up, Stark was kinda creepy and an alcoholic. I don't mind that he's decided to make a few characters non-white. There really were almost zippo in the original Marvel universe. One of my better friends, who is black, said recently that he always loved comics but felt like he was forced to identify for losers like Power Man and the Falcon, heh.

In any event, it is way more interesting than Heroes Reborn was (which basically had the same mandate) -- considering I'd never read anything that Millar had done before (Authority, etc.), I've found his takes on the X-men and Avengers to be refreshing. I hope the Ultimates doesn't turn into a "greatest hits" of the old series, like his X-men has become (and Heroes Reborn was). But it doesn't sound like that's what he wants to do.

[Dirt]

I never understood black people's complaints over not having characters to identify with just because they aren't the same color as them. Or that the characters that do exist are somehow lacking. I'm Chinese myself and who in the Marvel Universe do I have to identify with? Shang Chi? He's the ultimate Chinese cliche. I find being able to identify with Banner's loneliness, Pym's feelings of inadequecy or Steve Roger's ideas of always doing the right thing, Tony Stark turning his adversity into a triumph, a source for good (in the original Universe) to be far more important than what color they are.

[Dirt]

I'm still waiting for Angel to appear in Ultimate X-Men. I'm glad that he has such a prominent role in Uncanny X-Men because he's obviously being ignored in Ultimate X-Men.

[Toddy]

I agree with the color thing, and never really see it myself. Though I do understand what Stefan's black friend feels, because Marvel's practically gone out of its way to insult black readers with so many ridiculous characters over the years. That Luke Cage MAX series would've been the last straw for me. You guys check out an issue or two? I just glanced through the first couple in the store and saw nothing but really bad blaxploitation garbage. So many gold chains and muthfuckas that the comic could have been written by the Aryan Youth.

But changing characters' color in The Ultimates seems more like tokenism than anything else to me. And a way for the comic to represent Hollywood stars like Samuel L. Jackson. I'd rather they stuck with the core group as it was, and perhaps introduced new characters as the series went on to better reflect ethnic diversity. But maybe Marvel should just stay away from non-white characters altogether, considering that Grant Morrison is soon adding an Arab woman to the X-Men who has the power to explode herself. Allahu Akbar!

[Toddy]

As an aside, I love Millar's Ultimate X-Men. Only X-book worth picking up these days. Morrison's been very disappointing on New the past few months, and Kordey's art goes from freakishly interesting to just plain bad from panel to panel. When he can meet deadlines at all, that is. Uncanny's been unreadable for a year under Casey, though that might change with the new team. And Xtreme seems to be centered around wild coincidences and overwritten dialogue. Man, Claremont's fallen a long way. His take on the FF a few years back was equally stupid.

Should it really be so hard for Marvel to get its act together on the X-titles? Why the hell can't they get back to basics, or at least pattern things on what Claremont did in the early 80s, with the team/family atmosphere. Man, those were great comics. Marvel today just doesn't have that family atmosphere in its books anymore. No sense of real people or soap opera continuity--just isolated adventures that seem to get more boring every month. In that regard, The Ultimates looks pretty good.

[Anonymous]

But maybe Marvel should just stay away from non-white characters altogether, considering that Grant Morrison is soon adding an Arab woman to the X-Men who has the power to explode herself. Allahu Akbar!

That's a popular misquote, as Morrison said that Dust is not a human bomb, she resembles an old DC character called The Human Bomb (from the Freedom Fighters/All-Star Squadron) in appearance. If you look at a picture of him (like at http://mojoutd.tripod.com/Gagallery.html), you'll see that he wears a hazmat suit that shows only his eyes. Morrison and the two artists drawing her (Van Sciver and Quitely) have confirmed that in being a strict Afghani/Muslim, she wears a burqa that only shows her eyes, all the time. And that her powers do not involving blowing herself up.

[Anonymous]

"I'm Chinese myself and who in the Marvel Universe do I have to identify with?"

If you got a sex change, I guess Jubilee:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~dlwong/jubilee.html

Certainly not Iron Man's greatest foe, the walking stereotype Mandarin... though his power rings were really really cool, as rendered by Jack Kirby. I wanted a set of those suckers:

http://members.sockets.net/~rass/mandarin.html

[Anonymous]

Correction, I guess Kirby never drew those.

[Toddy]

Well, whether she blows up or not, there's still something sensational in adding a character like that at the present time. I mean, by this reasoning, some guy in a coolie hat should have joined the team in the early 1970s.

[Anonymous]

"in being a strict Afghani/Muslim, she wears a burqa that only shows her eyes, all the time."


All the hollywood leading ladies are going to be jumping for that part when X-Men 3 comes around...

[Thierry Nguyen]

Well, whether she blows up or not, there's still something sensational in adding a character like that at the present time. I mean, by this reasoning, some guy in a coolie hat should have joined the team in the early 1970s.

Well, I heard he primarily wants to use her as the voice of pacifism.

But then again, I'll try the novel idea of waiting for the issue itself to come out, rather than judge based on interviews and hearsay.

[Toddy]

Go for it. Myself, I'm not wasting any more money waiting for the X-books to come around.

[Thierry Nguyen]

You can always just read it at the store. No money lost, and you can legitimately claim "informed criticism".

Hey, anyone picked up Uncanny under Chuck Austen? Was wondering if it improved much over the Casey run. Austen also did some art for Miracleman, and that "erotica" series, Strips.

[Desslock]

>anyone picked up Uncanny under Chuck Austen? Was wondering if it improved much over the Casey run.

Definitely better than the Casey run (which was essentially unreadable), but pretty bland to date. Kinda a return to the style of the books in the early 90s - it's really disappointing that Uncanny has been, um, an unqualified "good" in a long, long time.

[Toddy]

I wish I could, Scooter. But I live in a small town, with a small comic store, and almost everything has to be ordered. You get the odd big issue on the shelves for a bit, but nothing regular. I'm a little amazed that anyone's ordering much from Marvel these days, though, what with that crazy policy the company's got now of giving virtually no information when the books are ordered. In Previews now, you get a title, number, maybe cover art (which is all generic now anyways, so it's not like you can tell much that way), maybe writer and artist, and that's it.

Anyhow, I'm taking another break with all of the X-books but Ultimate, which I still really like. The "old" books just don't have that family atmosphere from the old Claremont days I was hoping for when I got back into them last year. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen #2 and the first Carey issue of Hellblazer came out today, though, so it's not like I'm lacking great stuff to dig into.

[Dirt]

When's the next issue coming out?

[Desslock]

>When's the next issue coming out?

Not next week. It's about 2 months overdue.

[Sharpe]

To tie this back into gaming, here is a link to a Designer Diary by one of the devs of City of Heroes:

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/365/365492p1.html

He talks about the comic series and trades that helped give him ideas for the game, including the Ultimates and others. One thing that struck me is that his list of notable titles is damn near identical to mine: he really noticed a lot of the good stuff and didn't mention some of what i consider badly overrated (Crossgen, Kingdom Come, Marvels, etc).

If this is the kind of stuff they are tapping for the game, I have high hopes :).

Dan

[Desslock]

two months late, the next issue of Ultimates if finally out as of today, by the way.

[Anonymous]

got it. read it.

pretty good. nothing really groundbreaking this ish... except i just noticed that Samuel L. Jackson is playing Nick Fury.

fist fights on the way next ish, it appears.

[Desslock]

I thought it was great, again. This is the best comic I've read in a long time -- great to see the mass funeral for the 300+ people killed by the Hulk in his rampage, and some of the seeds for future developments Millar is planting.

[Dirt]

Definitely a filler issue. But a good one. I wonder if this means a fight between Giant Man and Captain America is next.

[Thierry Nguyen]

I wonder, in light of the inner-team dynamics (Giant Man/Wasp/Cap, Hulk, the fact that there's the "public" team and the "black ops" team), how much time will be spent on the "main" battle (Millar has already mentioned what the main "plot" is, but I'll hold off on spoilers). Or will it be another piece of misdirection, where the battle is on issue 5, and issue 6 reveals the inner-team dynamic being the "real" battle of this story.

[Citizen Burke]

He isn't reinventing the artform, but what he has done i've liked.

[Toddy]

I'm amazed Millar even knows what the main plot is going to be. We should start a poll as to how many times Marvel's going to cancel and then resolicit issue #8.

[Thierry Nguyen]

It's not Millar's problem, it's Hitch (re: the lateness). Ever since Hitch went from Authority to JLA, he's been behind on his art duties. He's not quite as bad as Frank Quitely though.

Millar has said for a long time that the second Ultimates story was an all-out Super-Skrull invasion (highlight action). But then again, this storyline is supposed to be done by the time Ultimates/Ultimate X-Men: Ultimate War starts this December.

[Desslock]

Ultimates was picked as the top comic of 2002 by, uh, always accurate, Wizard Magazine. Still, it's a good kudos.

I've really liked Millar's Ultimate books -- I gather it's worthwhile grabbing his Authority run too. Anything else of his worth getting?

[Dirt]

My understanding is that his first few arcs in Authority are good but it got really iffy at the end.

[Thierry Nguyen]

My understanding is that his first few arcs in Authority are good but it got really iffy at the end.

There was a whole buncha political bullshit that weakened the Authority run overall. Fill-ins, changing artists, etc. etc.

Oh, and the reason #7 (and issues afterwards) was late, was that Hitch and his girlfriend are having their first child together. And they're both moving as well. Yikes.

[Dirt]

I just wish that this comic would come out on time.

[Rob_Merritt]

I just wish that this comic would come out on time.

Aren't they like 3 issues behind now?

[Thierry Nguyen]

I just wish that this comic would come out on time.

Aren't they like 3 issues behind now?

4, because Ultimates #1 came out on like, Dec 30th last year. And #8 is scheduled for like, second week of January, I think.

Moving cross-country after your girlfriend births your child takes a lot of drawing time outta ya, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anyone pick up ULTIMATE WAR #1?

[Thierry Nguyen]

Anyone pick up ULTIMATE WAR #1?

Yup, even though it gives some spoilers on some Ultimate X-Men and Ultimates plotlines.

Also, Millar didn't work his timing right; he's a year early to call a story arc "Return Of The King."

[Thierry Nguyen]

Latest word from Bryan Hitch (artist):

"According to the revised schedule I have here, I am due to finish pencils by Jan 24, so with Paul Neary only a few days behind me all pages should be coloured and lettered by the end of the month or early Feb. I would estimate, and this is only a guess, that issue nine would ship in the third or final week of Feb with issue 10 about five weeks beyond that. I hope and expect that we could be back to monthly production by issue 12. Nothing like fixing the barn door after the horse has bolted, eh?

Marvel have been (grumbles about profit loss aside) extremely generous with the flexibility they have allowed Mighty Mark and I to get this stuff together without the need for fill-ins. We are doing all that is possible to achieve a return to monthly schedules over the next three months or so and both believe that this will happen as we are making much better progress.

We are likewise pleased that the majority of the book's readers are also understanding enough to bear with us through the sticky patch whilst we work our asses off to return to normal programming. Nobody wants this to be so more than Mark and I, and nobody wants fill-ins less than us. It's our baby, after all.

Whatever bitching there has been recently, and whatever assumptions being made about the reasons for lateness, we appreciate those of you who have refrained from personal commentary and abuse while we get back on track.

See you next week, and hope you all like issue 8. It was the best so far, in my own not quite so humble opinion!

Bryan"

[Anonymous]

If I was as late on my projects, my ass would be on the street.

[Bub, Andrew]

They obviously consider your ass more replaceable than Marvel does Bryan Hitch and Paul Neary's asses, respectively, Guest. No offense meant to you. I don't have the luxury of missing deadlines in my job either.