To Cleve, with love, amen

[bmulligan]

This part of Christian theology is very, very simple to understand. Here it is :

1. Groups burn in hell as individuals, irregardless of professed religion
2. Individuals achieve grace as individuals, irregardless of professed religion

Christianity is about Christ and the Ten Commandments. It isn't about going to church, professing a "Christian framework of belief" or having a wide network of other half-baked insincere friends who also claim to be "Christians" as opposed to "our gang."

No, your Christian theologly is better summed up as this: Christ gave his life for ours, and to achieve salvation, Christianity requires you to sacrifice your life for his. I say that any religion whos tenet is the subjugation of your own life to that of another is tantamount to the destruction of life itself.

We should deny our own existence because a man said we are sinners and lay it down willingly on god's guillotine in order to be 'saved'. Deny your self because you are inherently evil, worthless, nothing, valueless unless you have god. Does god speak to you Cleve? Is that the voice you hear inside your head? What if he were to tell you to kill your son? Would you do it as Abraham would?

Religion had it's place in history. It allowed for the creation of great civilizations. It allowed for large numbers of people to be controlled by few who were architect to buildings, cities, wealth, slavery, and social order. But times have changed becuase of a concept constructed by that dastardly sinnful human mind.

The concept of freedom has changed the structure of our congregation. Instead of kings and priests who spoke for god and controlled our lives, the concept of freedom has liberated us from the slavery of tyranny. Slowly the religions broke form their paradigims, splintering to new lands where they had freedom to believe in their own fashion. This spark fired the evolution of freedom into the principle it is today--individual autonomy. That one's life has value, that it belongs to you only, and is not subject to any king, state, or religion. Your Christian religion is the exact opposite of these principles: Your life has no value unless it belongs to god.

I don't need a christ and 10 commandments to tell me what's right and wrong. I need my own judgement as to what will keep and protect my own life. Because a life is the standard of value from which all other values are measured. Life cannot be denied in order to be lived.

[quatoria]

It's funny. Cleve swears that the ten commandments rule his life, yet he recently advocated the extermination of every individual currently living in Africa. How, exactly, does that mesh with "thou shalt not kill", Cleve? I guess you've got a seat warming for you right next to the godless marxists you hate so much.

[Tyjenks]

How, exactly, does that mesh with "thou shalt not kill", Cleve?

Bilblical scholars have always held that this was the most hazy and easily misinterpreted of the ten commandments.

[Twosixteen]

This part of Christian theology is very, very simple to understand. Here it is :

1. Groups burn in hell as individuals, irregardless of professed religion
2. Individuals achieve grace as individuals, irregardless of professed religion

Christianity is about Christ and the Ten Commandments. It isn't about going to church, professing a "Christian framework of belief" or having a wide network of other half-baked insincere friends who also claim to be "Christians" as opposed to "our gang."

ir·re·gard·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-gärdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Probably blend of irrespective, and regardless.]
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How's that IQ working out for ya? :roll:

[Jason McMaster]

My father is not a religious man, and he started going to church. When I asked him about this he said "You know, whether or not there's a heaven or hell, if you live by these guidelines you can't go too wrong."

I believe he's right.

But hey, you know, everyone hates XIAN SHEEP!@!#@! OMG LOLOLOLOL IM A ATHEIST!@#$!#!L!LL!L!L!L!L!L!L!!L!L!L!L!L!@#$!$$$@ $$@!$$ I HATE A DOCTRINE OF PEACE FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON!@#!#@!#

That shit gets so tiring

[Ergo]

So do gross generalizations.

[Jason McMaster]

What's a gross generalization in what I said?

Is bmulligan a collective of people to which you belong?

Maybe the use of the word everyone was confusing to you, if I could convey an elongated enunciation of it to you and possibly an eye rolling gesture that would have helped.

[Ergo]

Sorry, Jason, but I found the statement, "I HATE A DOCTRINE OF PEACE FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON!" to be laughable at best and insulting at worst. If you think that all atheists feel this way, you're generalizing.

[Jason McMaster]

I didn't mean all atheists.

One of my closest friends is an atheist and he's ok with a lot of things, I was directing that towards the trivialization of religion as presented before. I know a lot of people who are atheists as a fashion statement or because they think it makes them edgy. Wasn't trying to generalize.

[Ergo]

Understood.

[Tyjenks]

You godless heathens sure are a defensive lot. :wink:

[bmulligan]

$ I HATE A DOCTRINE OF PEACE FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON!

Chrstianity is not a doctrine of peace, it is a doctrine of self worthlessness.

Peace is what is achieved when individuals relinquish self control to their masters and obey them without question.

[Ergo]

You godless heathens sure are a defensive lot. :wink:

That's MISTER Heathen to you, boyo.

[Brian Koontz]

The concept of freedom has changed the structure of our congregation. Instead of kings and priests who spoke for god and controlled our lives, the concept of freedom has liberated us from the slavery of tyranny. Slowly the religions broke form their paradigims, splintering to new lands where they had freedom to believe in their own fashion. This spark fired the evolution of freedom into the principle it is today--individual autonomy. That one's life has value, that it belongs to you only, and is not subject to any king, state, or religion. Your Christian religion is the exact opposite of these principles: Your life has no value unless it belongs to god.

Only as long as you understand that Freedom is just another paradigm that culture subjects itself to.

Per my comment several years ago... "You are a slave to freedom".

I remember discussing the US presidency with someone a while back. He said that the president could never be a great man because he would then become a tyrant. I asked him if there was anything wrong with a great man being a tyrant. He gave me a funny look and I knew that regardless of character or action, the president would never be a great man. That wasn't the kind of man the job was for. And I wondered about the cost* of freedom.

* edited from "price"

[bmulligan]

"You are a slave to freedom".



Isn't it preferable to be a slave to one's own freedom and ruler of same simultaneously? I would prefer it to being a slave to a tyrant any day of the week.

The price of freedom is responsibility for your own life, something I'd gladly pay to keep it.

[JeffL]

No, your Christian theologly is better summed up as this: Christ gave his life for ours, and to achieve salvation, Christianity requires you to sacrifice your life for his. I say that any religion whos tenet is the subjugation of your own life to that of another is tantamount to the destruction of life itself.


Hmm. I said I was going to avoid religion threads because no one ever convinces anyone of anything, and it seems a waste of time. But I will offer the view of one person who is a Christian. I don't see myself as throwing my life away in any way, shape or form. Christ's primary teaching: love others. When asked how people would know his apostles were truly his, the answer was "they will know you by your love." Christ shocked and ticked off the "relligious" leaders of his day by going directly into the homes of those who were rejected by society: prostitutes, tax collectors, the racially unacceptable (e.g., Samaritans), etc. He said that of all the commands the most important was to love your brother as yourself. He taught over and over the importance of finding those in need and helping them, not to be "seen" but because it was the right thing to do. He taught forgiveness and never holding yourself "above" anyone else.

While many professing Christians seem to have forgotten what Christ taught, and I certainly fail many times, it hardly feels like slavery or the destruction of my life. Love and genuinely care for others. Not exactly the bars of a jail cell in my experience.

Just a FWIW.

[John Merva]

No, your Christian theologly is better summed up as this: Christ gave his life for ours, and to achieve salvation, Christianity requires you to sacrifice your life for his. I say that any religion whos tenet is the subjugation of your own life to that of another is tantamount to the destruction of life itself.


Hmm. I said I was going to avoid religion threads because no one ever convinces anyone of anything, and it seems a waste of time. But I will offer the view of one person who is a Christian. I don't see myself as throwing my life away in any way, shape or form. Christ's primary teaching: love others. When asked how people would know his apostles were truly his, the answer was "they will know you by your love." Christ shocked and ticked off the "relligious" leaders of his day by going directly into the homes of those who were rejected by society: prostitutes, tax collectors, the racially unacceptable (e.g., Samaritans), etc. He said that of all the commands the most important was to love your brother as yourself. He taught over and over the importance of finding those in need and helping them, not to be "seen" but because it was the right thing to do. He taught forgiveness and never holding yourself "above" anyone else.

While many professing Christians seem to have forgotten what Christ taught, and I certainly fail many times, it hardly feels like slavery or the destruction of my life. Love and genuinely care for others. Not exactly the bars of a jail cell in my experience.

Just a FWIW.

i think that you've hit upon the real crucial point there. I take Christianity and other religions merely as a set of guidelines - be good to other people, don't do things to them that you wouldn't have done to you etc. These are really things that should be self-evident but sometimes people need them written down in order to really get them.

[Tyjenks]

These are really things that should be self-evident but sometimes people need them written down in order to really get them.

Sometimes that is not evenn enough and the threat of hellfire and eternal damnation is needed also. :wink:

[John Merva]

These are really things that should be self-evident but sometimes people need them written down in order to really get them.

Sometimes that is not evenn enough and the threat of hellfire and eternal damnation is needed also. :wink:

Well. scared people move a lot faster and behave themselves a lot better :lol: !

[Jason Lutes]

No, your Christian theologly is better summed up as this: Christ gave his life for ours, and to achieve salvation, Christianity requires you to sacrifice your life for his. I say that any religion whos tenet is the subjugation of your own life to that of another is tantamount to the destruction of life itself.

Hmm. I said I was going to avoid religion threads because no one ever convinces anyone of anything, and it seems a waste of time. But I will offer the view of one person who is a Christian. I don't see myself as throwing my life away in any way, shape or form. Christ's primary teaching: love others. When asked how people would know his apostles were truly his, the answer was "they will know you by your love." Christ shocked and ticked off the "relligious" leaders of his day by going directly into the homes of those who were rejected by society: prostitutes, tax collectors, the racially unacceptable (e.g., Samaritans), etc. He said that of all the commands the most important was to love your brother as yourself. He taught over and over the importance of finding those in need and helping them, not to be "seen" but because it was the right thing to do. He taught forgiveness and never holding yourself "above" anyone else.

While many professing Christians seem to have forgotten what Christ taught, and I certainly fail many times, it hardly feels like slavery or the destruction of my life. Love and genuinely care for others. Not exactly the bars of a jail cell in my experience.
Yeah, Mr. Mulligan, I'm curious about where you think the whole "love" thing fits in to your worldview. You've explicated the freedom thing and the money thing... so what does Objective philosophy have to say about love? I honestly want to know.

[bmulligan]

Love? Well, seems everyone has a hard time defining what that is, maybe we should take a stab at it in another thread? I was really hoping to get a rise out of Cleve, but I guess he's got better things to do than mull around with all of us extras from Brazil.

[quatoria]

Love? Well, seems everyone has a hard time defining what that is, maybe we should take a stab at it in another thread? I was really hoping to get a rise out of Cleve, but I guess he's got better things to do than mull around with all of us extras from Brazil.

Yes, like being banned from the forum.

[hermyhermit]

Yes, like being banned from the forum.

:) :) :) You beat me to this one by just a few minutes...

[quatoria]

Yes, like being banned from the forum.

:) :) :) You beat me to this one by just a few minutes...

Yes, like 82.

[Jason Lutes]

:lol: