Sweden vs. Religious Education

[Crispus]

From this commentary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/18/godshonesttruth) in the Guardian:

The Swedish government has announced plans to clamp down hard on religious education. It will soon become illegal even for private faith schools to teach religious doctrines as if they were true. In an interesting twist on the American experience, prayer will remain legal in schools - after all, it has no truth value. But everything that takes place on the curriculum's time will have to be secular. "Pupils must be protected from every sort of fundamentalism," said the minister for schools, Jan Björklund.

Creationism and ID are explicitly banned but so is proselytising even in religious education classes. The Qur'an may not be taught as if it is true even in Muslim independent schools, nor may the Bible in Christian schools.

I knew the Scandinavian countries were highly secular, but this seems extreme even for them. I'm amazed there hasn't been more of an uproar over it.

Edit -- As an addendum, the closest thing I've seen to this in the US is a recent court ruling (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/13/BAQT129NMG.DTL) in California where a judge ruled that the University of California could deny course credits (and not just science course credits) for high schoolers whose textbooks denied evolution and treated the Bible as infallible.

[Adam B]

The question is whether we in Britain will come to see this as a necessary move in the struggle to contain Islamist ideologies. Can a defence of freedom convincingly be mounted by a state that takes such a firm view of what is or is not true?

I despise the conflation of the entirety of Islam and radical terrorist groups so very much.

[Jason McCullough]

From actually reading the linked article(!), this only seems to apply to public and independent schools. Independent schools are effectively the equivalent of charter schools here in the US - they're entirelly publically funded (http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Article____17670.aspx).

"If you want public funds, you can't teach religion" sounds pretty non-controversial to me, and I don't think you can actually do that in the US anyway except for some minor circumstances.

His claim that "private faith schools" will have this applied to them looks flat-out false to me, if by private he means not publically funded.

[Hanzii]

If Sweden is anything like Denmark (and I'm pretty sure it is) then no private school is 100% privately funded and even if they were certain laws about what a kid must be taught still applies.

This law is still pretty far reaching, but in Denmark private moslem and a single Christian schools have been closed down for not teaching the proper curriculum - what they teach besides that is up to the school (in Denmark).

[Anders Hallin]

From actually reading the linked article(!), this only seems to apply to public and independent schools. Independent schools are effectively the equivalent of charter schools here in the US - they're entirelly publically funded (http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Article____17670.aspx).

"If you want public funds, you can't teach religion" sounds pretty non-controversial to me, and I don't think you can actually do that in the US anyway except for some minor circumstances.

His claim that "private faith schools" will have this applied to them looks flat-out false to me, if by private he means not publically funded.
The thing is, you can't start a school in Sweden that is not publicly funded, as far as I know.
Education act, ch. 3: http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/574/a/21538

[Rimbo]

"Pupils must be protected from every sort of fundamentalism," said the minister for schools, Jan Björklund.

irony 1 |ˈīrənē; ˈiərnē|
noun ( pl. -nies)
• the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect : “Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony. See note at wit .
• a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result : [with clause ] the irony is that I thought he could help me.
• (also dramatic or tragic irony) a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.

[Lh'owon]

It will soon become illegal even for private faith schools to teach religious doctrines as if they were true.

Seems more than reasonable to me. I'm all for comparative religion being taught in school, but teaching any religious doctrine as true is entirely inappropriate for a school.

Put simply a school is an institution for educating children. To mix in indoctrination is a gross debasement of that goal. There are churches, youth groups, and a myriad of other avenues for that.

[Jason McCullough]

Strange, what's the difference between private and independent schools then?

[Unicorn McGriddle]

irony

Push your "absence of religion is a religion" hotdog cart somewhere else.

[Rimbo]

Push your "absence of religion is a religion" hotdog cart somewhere else.

Description of Straw Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

[Gunmetal]

Description of Straw Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
irony 1 |ˈīrənē; ˈiərnē|
noun ( pl. -nies)
• the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect : “Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony. See note at wit .
• a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result : [with clause ] the irony is that I thought he could help me.
• (also dramatic or tragic irony) a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.

[Rimbo]

irony 1 |ˈīrənē; ˈiərnē|
noun ( pl. -nies)
• the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect : “Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony. See note at wit .
• a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result : [with clause ] the irony is that I thought he could help me.
• (also dramatic or tragic irony) a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.

non sequitur |ˌnän ˈsekwitər|
noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.
ORIGIN Latin, literally ‘it does not follow.’

[Hanzii]

Strange, what's the difference between private and independent schools then?


I think independant schools are just another name for private schools.

And the law makes clear that for the independant school to be a kids primary teaching it must adhere to certain laws regarding what the kid must learn. On the other hand if the school does so, it gets public funding ie a local government can't just remove funding as they see fit.

As well as the public funding a private school can charge a fee to pay for whatever other expenses they have at the school.

Apart from that it's just a private school. They get the freedom to teach stuff that isn't part of the curriculum at public school or put bigger emphasis on parts of the curriculum or different philosphies of teaching (ie we have the Steiner schools that don't believe in exams)- what they don't get is the freedom to not teach the basics as defined by the law. Ie the current law doesn't allow a school to replace the teaching of basic biology with religion.
(the last moslem school to be closed in my country did so, because their kids weren't good enough at basic reading skills and their biology books had the chapter on evolution glued shut)

The new law is just even more specific on how faith can be taught.

In Denmark (and perhaps in Sweden, I didn't read the entire law), you're allowed to home school your kids, but they still have to pass standard tests and if they don't the government can force you to put your kids in school or fine you, if you don't

[Kalle]

I knew the Scandinavian countries were highly secular, but this seems extreme even for them. I'm amazed there hasn't been more of an uproar over it.


I don't know about extreme but the only uproar has been over the fact that religious schools fail to teach the proper curriculum. There are very few people concerned about religious rights over this issue, and those that are don't get their message out. Politically this issue is nothing but win for the minister of schools.

[Anders Hallin]

I don't really see the big deal, as citizens, children have certain rights and obligations. The right to a proper education, and the obligation to get one. I don't see what the parents have to do with that situation.

[Rimbo]

I don't really see the big deal, as citizens, children have certain rights and obligations. The right to a proper education, and the obligation to get one. I don't see what the parents have to do with that situation.

Well, the general idea is that the parents are supposed to be responsible for educating their kids properly, not the state.

[Hanzii]

Well, the general idea is that the parents are supposed to be responsible for educating their kids properly, not the state.

No. That's your general idea.
The rest of us are more worried about the kids than of the parents rights as expressed in the constitution of a far away country.

It's also the parents responsibility that kids are fed. If parents for religious reasons decides to feed their kid only grass, the state should not interfere.

[Kalle]

Well, the general idea is that the parents are supposed to be responsible for educating their kids properly, not the state.

That idea doesn't have much traction in Sweden. Parenthood doesn't have any minimum standards.

[Chris Nahr]

Sounds like Sweden made a sensible law for a change. Schools should certainly teach a comparative history of religions but if parents want their children indoctrinated with some ridiculous fairy tales they can damn well try that at home.

[Kalle]

Sounds like Sweden made a sensible law for a change.

What's this Chris? All Swedish laws are sensible. It's just you foreigners that are insensible.

[Hanzii]

Sibling rivalry and all that aside I have been tempted a lot recently to move across the water. Swedens many sensible laws (as opposed to ours getting worse and worse) is just another draw.

[Chris Nahr]

Well, there's the government monopoly on alcoholic beverages and the blanket ban on prostitution... it's like a nation of atheist Puritans!

[Hanzii]

Yeah, but they just go to Denmark to get around those two ;-)

But you're right.

[Tim James]

The rest of us are more worried about the kids than of the parents rights as expressed in the constitution of a far away country.There's that worry again about educating kids in far away lands. And these can't even vote against Obama!

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Rimbo |rimmmm'bo|
noun
A motherfucker who's trying to tell me he wasn't attempting to imply that church/state separation is "fundamentalism."

[ravenight]

Seems like a law we should put in place in the US. Not much point in having mandatory primary education if you are allowed to go to fairy tale class instead.

[Tim James]

Seems like a law we should put in place in the US. Not much point in having mandatory primary education if you are allowed to go to fairy tale class instead.Not to accuse wide swaths of QT3 for being ignorant, but I always thought the private schools had to run a little longer for the extra period of religion class.

In any case, the point for mandatory schooling has always been to create a minimum level of education for decent citizenship. Whether they then learn about the truth behind the spaghetti monster in their free time only matters if you're a busybody.

[Anders Hallin]

Sibling rivalry and all that aside I have been tempted a lot recently to move across the water. Swedens many sensible laws (as opposed to ours getting worse and worse) is just another draw.
Sorry, Hanzii, but every law Denmark makes about foreigner, Sweden does, but applies it only to Danes. We call it the lol-law.

[Jason McCullough]

I think independant schools are just another name for private schools.

Can no one from Sweden tell us for sure? :(

[Tim James]

Quick Google search indicates that the "private" schools are all funded with public money. I'm pretty sure it's just school vouchers co-opting free market language.

I actually wonder if they have any "private" schools like in America, that can teach religion (or whatever) and fund themselves but must conform to a state accreditation process or minimum curriculum.

[Kalle]

Can no one from Sweden tell us for sure? :(

I actually wonder if they have any "private" schools like in America, that can teach religion (or whatever) and fund themselves but must conform to a state accreditation process or minimum curriculum.

Anders already linked the English translated Education act (http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/574/a/21538), chapter 9 is the most relevant. Page 25.

And no, there are no true private schools. It is mandatory for all children age 7-16 to attend school and they must be taught the state mandated curriculum. Independent schools that wish to follow the general curriculum while being free of the strictures of municipal schools recieve government grants in proportion to the number of students they attract. That's as close as you get.

[Hanzii]

Quick Google search indicates that the "private" schools are all funded with public money. I'm pretty sure it's just school vouchers co-opting free market language.

I actually wonder if they have any "private" schools like in America, that can teach religion (or whatever) and fund themselves but must conform to a state accreditation process or minimum curriculum.

They do and the similarity to school vouchers is apt.

It ensures that - within reason - you can make a school just as you wish. You get basic funding so as not to discriminate, but if you want to make a fancy boarding school you can do so and charge a huge fee as extra.
Sweden has these kind of schools too.
There's just a minimum standard of teaching they have to adhere to.

[XPav]

non sequitur |ˌnän ˈsekwitər|
noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.
ORIGIN Latin, literally ‘it does not follow.’

pe·dan·tic (pə-dăn'tĭk) pronunciation
adj.

Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.
pedantically pe·dan'ti·cal·ly adv.

SYNONYMS pedantic, academic, bookish, donnish, scholastic. These adjectives mean marked by a narrow, often tiresome focus on or display of learning and especially its trivial aspects: a pedantic writing style; an academic insistence on precision; a bookish vocabulary; donnish refinement of speech; scholastic and excessively subtle reasoning.

[SpoofyChop]

This is religious persecution and it is a violation of the fundamental human rights of people of any religion.

I don't even think China has a law this sickening.

[Tim James]

I don't even think China has a law this sickening.The Baby-Stealing for Gymnastics Purposes Resolution is pretty bad, you have to admit.

[Kalle]

This is religious persecution and it is a violation of the fundamental human rights of people of any religion.

I don't even think China has a law this sickening.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, right.

[quatoria]

This is religious persecution and it is a violation of the fundamental human rights of people of any religion.

I don't even think China has a law this sickening.

So it prohibits parents from teaching their children religion at home, or in the Church? I was under the impression it just mandated that schools were not to be a party to religious indoctrination of any variety, not that said indoctrination was prohibited from incurring elsewhere. IE, teach your kids any damn thing you want, just not on the taxpayer's dime.

[Linoleum]

It's really just a matter of the citizens of the country decided that the State is the arbiter of indoctrination for children in terms of schooling and holds a monopoly backed by force on instituting educational standards.

In the case of Sweden I have no doubt that the vast majority of the population is in agreement with their current system.

If you don't like it, leaving isn't quite as an extreme venture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims) as it used to be.

[Jason McCullough]

The first link in that guy's article goes here (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g7oph07uGUVJhxg1JYVL5ET8zdhw). It includes this quote:

The measures presented Monday would be included in new education legislation which is to be presented to parliament for a vote.

They would apply to public schools as well as independent schools, which also receive funding from the state. Private schools are exempt.

Unless we're using bizarro logic that kind of implies private and independent schools are somehow different.

[Kalle]

I think whoever wrote that article is just plain misinformed. There are no completely private schools in Sweden, atleast not for primary education.

[Crispus]

I was under the impression it just mandated that schools were not to be a party to religious indoctrination of any variety, not that said indoctrination was prohibited from incurring elsewhere. IE, teach your kids any damn thing you want, just not on the taxpayer's dime.

Yes, that's all it is. Even so, this still seemed shocking to me because I know quite a few people who attended Christian schools (or were homeschooled - is homeschooling permitted in Sweden?) and whose textbooks/classes explicitly treated the Bible as infallible in the areas of science and history. Their parents intentionally sent them to such schools because that's what they believed themselves. They wanted their children brought up in a protective environment where their beliefs would be encouraged, not attacked. That a country would move to ban all of that was very surprising to me, though I understand that the demographics in Sweden are a lot different than they are in the U.S.

[Kalle]

Homeschooling is rare, but permitted. The kids need to pass curriculum-based tests on what they learn though.

[Lh'owon]

... whose textbooks/classes explicitly treated the Bible as infallible in the areas of science and history. Their parents intentionally sent them to such schools because that's what they believed themselves. They wanted their children brought up in a protective environment where their beliefs would be encouraged, not attacked.

Obviously we have different mindsets when it comes to this, but suffice to say the above is absolutely terrifying to me. "Protective environment"? "Infallible" in the area of science, not to mention history?

I find it hard to believe even a moderate believer wouldn't be appalled at that. It's downright neglectful if not abusive to force a child (sending them to a brainwas– er, Christian school counts as forcing – they don't have any other choice) to view the world through blinkers.

Which is why the law is quite reasonable, in my opinion.

[Tim James]

Are you guys (okay, just Lh'owon) so old that you don't remember being a teenager? When they get out into real life most of them are going to reject the crap that has been forced into their heads. They might have a little extra cynicism and hatred for the world, but hey, you all turned out fine. ;-)

No need to be absolutely terrified here.

[Anders Hallin]

Can no one from Sweden tell us for sure? :(
"S. 3 Apart from the types of schools provided by the state, there may be schools provided by private physical or legal persons (independent schools). "
The words "private school" does not occur in the law text, so I think it's just bad usage of language by the article author.

[Lh'owon]

Are you guys (okay, just Lh'owon) so old that you don't remember being a teenager? When they get out into real life most of them are going to reject the crap that has been forced into their heads. They might have a little extra cynicism and hatred for the world, but hey, you all turned out fine. ;-)

No need to be absolutely terrified here.

I am a teenager (NINETEEN WHICH IS OVER EIGHTEEN DON'T REPORT ME).

I was fortunate enough to be brought up without any pressure to believe or not believe – I was even taken to church for a bit when I was young despite my parents not being religious, which is a great way to get exposure to religion. So I don't really know what rejecting an entire way of viewing reality would be like.

But yea I suppose that was excessively hyperbolic, but I do find that sort of thing chilling. Whether it's effective or not doesn't change the fact that it's a concerted attempt to instill a specific belief system and in the process quash critical thinking. Fact is that many of the kids who go to those schools won't reject the teaching and will have a permanent aversion to basic scientific facts, which is sad.

[Jason McCullough]

"S. 3 Apart from the types of schools provided by the state, there may be schools provided by private physical or legal persons (independent schools). "
The words "private school" does not occur in the law text, so I think it's just bad usage of language by the article author.

Well it's the AFP article I'm referring to. It simultaneously claims it doesn't apply to private and does apply to independent, which would mean they'd have to be flat-out wrong about one or the other.

[Anders Hallin]

Well it's the AFP article I'm referring to. It simultaneously claims it doesn't apply to private and does apply to independent, which would mean they'd have to be flat-out wrong about one or the other.
Sounds like the article is wrong. You have to go to compulsive comprehensive education, and that means government school or independent school. There doesn't seem to be any room in the law books for anything else.

[extarbags]

Compulsive?

[Fugitive]

Perhaps by private schools they mean things like specialized certification or trade or hobby schools, which you normally wouldn't lump in with the "growing up" type of school.

[Kalle]

Compulsive?

Primary education is mandatory.

[jeansberg]

Compulsory. :)

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Mandative.

[Flowers]

Here's the thing; if my government was taking a portion of my income, and spending it, even in a roundabout way, to teach children that they should count on Spiderman to save them, or that they could get special powers as a ghost, but only if they never used certain parts of their bodies except by accident at night, that would be fine. Why? For one, that's awesome. For twosies, the children are our future.

I don't think I need to tell anyone what that means, but I will anyway. The children are our future and that future is dark. In order to not get apocalypsed super hard, our children, who will become the scientists of tomorrow, will need to be as stupid as possible. Whether the threat is robots which can be outsmarted using tricks from the original run of Star Trek, or collossal hybrid beasts that can be poisoned easily, the more sheltered from pop culture and retarded about the way the laws of physics actually work they are, the better.

[Johan A]

Ironically I went to a christian private school in sweden for my first 9 years, which turned me into an agnostic.

However, religious people here are viewed pretty much like communists in the USA. Small weird minorities of people that do not know better.