Buddhists in the house?

[Aszurom]

Some curiosity is building about Buddhism. I've been listening to Alan Watts stuff a little, and picked up the zencast. Haven't gotten the opportunity to devote a great deal of time to studying it, but a lot of what Watts has been talking about in the audiobooks I grabbed seems to align pretty well with where I've arrived on my own about religion and such.

I don't understand why it's referred to as a "religion" when it seems about as apathetic about religion as possible to me.

[Matthew Gallant]

It's considered a religion because there are some metaphysics involved in the mix.

[Miramon]

It's a religion, though I am only qualified to speak of it as any atheist observer might.

I haven't read Watts, but I suppose that he has abstracted the philosophical pillar of the faith and isolated it from the religious.

But real Buddhism, whether it's Mahayana, Theravada, Tantric, or whatever, has the philosophical core plus theogony, theodicy, ritual, hierocracy, and all the other trappings. The Eight-fold path is only one element of Buddhism, not all there is to it. Metempsychosis, a myriad of major and minor divinities of all kinds, respect for the Hindu tradition, lots of other things there besides the sterility of the philosophy.

I think Japanese Zen is religious as well for that matter, despite its general lack of religious trappings, because it has thrived in the context of a Buddhist culture where everyone knows the normal religious elements quite well; and it's not protestant in form, either. I'm going to say it's not like say Universalist Unitarianism in deliberately discarding and abstracting religious elements so much as it attempts to penetrate or go beyond them.

No doubt there are many devout and sincere American Buddhists of all kinds, but somehow the presentation of Buddhism to Americans often seems more to resemble New Age babble more than it does the actual heritage of the religious tradition.

Anyhow, odds are there is a Buddhist temple that serves one or another community such as Thai-Americans that you can visit in your area -- someplace not generally frequented by non-Buddhists. Go to some such place, smell the incense and observe the icons and statues and ceremonies, and I think any doubts about the religious quality of the faith will vanish.

[Dirt]

If you want the "apathetic" version, go with Chan.

[Sol Invictus]

Chan is what Zen Buddhism is called in Chinese. Just go with that.

I can't recall any religious elements about it, off the bat. Mantras referring to Buddha are "meaningless".

Subsequently, I haven't pursued the subject of Zen in quite some time. Would any of you be willing to impart suggestions on the best books for 'learning' it, as it were? I could use some stress relief.

[Aeon221]

Chan is what Zen Buddhism is called in Chinese. Just go with that.

I can't recall any religious elements about it, off the bat. Mantras referring to Buddha are "meaningless".

Subsequently, I haven't pursued the subject of Zen in quite some time. Would any of you be willing to impart suggestions on the best books for 'learning' it, as it were? I could use some stress relief.

Probably Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. That one seems to get tossed around a lot by creepy New Age types.

[Sol Invictus]

If I could make a request for a book, it'd be for one that teaches me how to reconcile a Zen awakening with music listening.

There's a one in a million chance that such a book exists, and is well written, so I must ask: does the book I seek exist?

[Sidd_Budd]

I'm a follower of Tibetan Buddhism, so I don't know if there's a book that combines music with Zen. The closest thing I know of to a Zen classic in the English language is The Three Pillars of Zen. (http://www.amazon.com/Three-Pillars-Zen-Teaching-Enlightenment/dp/0385260938/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219650230&sr=8-1) There are almost always a few copies of this in American used bookstores. It's been a while since I've read it, but it does touch on some of the metaphysical elements of Buddhism more typical of religions. I think Aeon221 was kidding when he referred to Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I liked the book, but it's not a good introduction to Zen.

I've read a few of Watts' books. He's good for an introduction to Buddhist philosophy, but I think he gives an incomplete picture in his writing. IMO, he tends to overemphasize the intellectual aspects of Buddhism, & many of his works seem somewhat dated. There's an aspect of 60s counterculture that comes through in his works, and folks might get the impression that 21st century Western Buddhists are all hippie throwbacks. Only about 35% of us are.

But don't just read if you are interested in Buddhism; do some meditative practice. In fact, of the three main forms of Western Buddhism -- Theravada, Zen, & Tibetan/Tantric -- Zen would place the least emphasis on reading, and the most on practice.

[lesslucid]

There's a book called Zen in the art of Archery that I like. Some aspects of it have been disputed in the 50 odd year since its publication, but I think it's still pretty interesting and insightful. You could apply the ideas in it to music, but it doesn't explicitly address that.

[Brad Grenz]

Chan is what Zen Buddhism is called in Chinese. Just go with that.

Actually, I think Zen is what Chan Buddhism is called in Japan.

But Buddhism is for losers. Taoism is the shit.

[extarbags]

But Buddhism is for losers. Taoism is the shit.

Perhaps the most hilarious and impenetrably obscure in-joke of all time.

[Destarius]

Well, Taoism does have magic and jumping zombies and all the stuff you see in the movies.

[BennyProfane]

Have you looked at the Quakers at all?

I mean that seriously. My own philosophical bent (if such a thing exists) tends to be a mishmosh of Buddhism and Quaker, with some native American material blended into the mix. I find them quite compatible in many ways.

[Houngan]

The Koreans seem to have the best, least-supernatural Zen that I've seen. Also, Seung Sahn has a good sense of humor, and doesn't get trapped in terminology.

Dropping Ashes on the Buddha is a fantastic introduction to Zen thought, and an extemely entertaining book. For a more "technical" discussion, The Compass of Zen breaks down the nuts and bolts of zen-mind progression.

If you get confused by any terms in particular, feel free to ask. For instance, Dharma or "the Dharma" gets tossed around a lot without explanation, and can be confusing. It generally means the collected teachings of Buddha, but can be used in a number of ways.

H.

[Miramon]

Zen, (and presumably Chan, I don't know) can't be learned by reading books. In fact, the whole point is that it is ineffable and that words themselves are incapable of conveying enlightenment, thus koans, which are sort of a word-based affront to conventional understanding.

Ironically, of course everything I know about Zen I learned from reading....

However, I must say, that Zen and the Art of Archery by Herrigel, is a relevant book to read, not Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Pirsig. The former book describes the author's experience studying Zen in Japan. The latter is something else -- entirely.

Pirsig says:

"...it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles either."

There is a general introduction to Zen published by the publisher of Herrigel (equally slender, by the way). I believe the book is Introduction to Zen Buddhism by Suzuki, but I don't own it anymore, so I'm not absolutely sure.

[Drastic]

If I could make a request for a book, it'd be for one that teaches me how to reconcile a Zen awakening with music listening.

There's a one in a million chance that such a book exists, and is well written, so I must ask: does the book I seek exist?
I don't really get what's to reconcile (listen to music; also, practice Zen. Done.), but Brad Warner's Hardcore Zen (http://www.amazon.com/Hardcore-Zen-Monster-Movies-Reality/dp/086171380X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219676947&sr=8-1) is pretty entertaining. In addition to being one of those ordained Zen Master guys in the Soto sect, he also used to work for the studio behind Ultraman, and before the whole Zen thing played bass for a punk band; they apparently did one of those middle-aged-reunion tours awhile back. He's got a general distaste for the more New Agey fluffspeak and affectations that can drive folks away from the whole affair, and a general tone that makes many other Buddhists get pretty tetchy with him. (Which is pretty funny when you really think about it.)

[Miramon]

By the way, I've seen a decal sticker around lately on cars in my area. It depicts the silhouette of a multi-headed naga sort of thing surrounded by the 8 I-ching trigrams, with the word "dharma" in the center.

The combination of the I-ching symbolism with the Hindu or Buddhist dharma concept seems a bit odd to me. I think the divinity might be Ananta, (I remember Ananta from one of the Megaten games) but there are various other things it might be too -- lots of Hindu serpent deities.

Is this some sect's symbol, or what? Maybe a band logo?

[Midnight Son]

I always like getting some booty.

Religion? No.

[Dirt]

http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Sutra-Hui-neng-Shambhala-Classics/dp/1590301374/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219680765&sr=8-3

[Qenan]

Have you looked at the Quakers at all?

I mean that seriously. My own philosophical bent (if such a thing exists) tends to be a mishmosh of Buddhism and Quaker, with some native American material blended into the mix. I find them quite compatible in many ways.
You might like the UU as well, although they have no dogma at all and therefore won't satisfy those who seek some.

[wisefool]

By the way, I've seen a decal sticker around lately on cars in my area. It depicts the silhouette of a multi-headed naga sort of thing surrounded by the 8 I-ching trigrams, with the word "dharma" in the center.

The combination of the I-ching symbolism with the Hindu or Buddhist dharma concept seems a bit odd to me. I think the divinity might be Ananta, (I remember Ananta from one of the Megaten games) but there are various other things it might be too -- lots of Hindu serpent deities.

Is this some sect's symbol, or what? Maybe a band logo?

Maybe it's from some anime. An orochi is the 8-headed (Japanese) hydra. There's some stories where it fights Amaterasu (goddess of sun). Amaterasu is tricked with 8-sided mirror (like the taoist ones.)

[BennyProfane]

You might like the UU as well, although they have no dogma at all and therefore won't satisfy those who seek some.

Yeah, we've gone to a couple of different UU congregations (I hesitate to call them churches). It is all well and good, and I'm happy folks can find what they are looking for, but as nearly as I can tell, UU is a social club for people who feel the need to express their spirituality publicly, but reject western (meaning either Catholic or Protestant) religious trappings.

And please, that is not intended as a slam in any shape or form. Its just not my cup of tea (or should I say ch'a, to get back to the point of this thread).

[MonkeyPunky]

By the way, I've seen a decal sticker around lately on cars in my area. It depicts the silhouette of a multi-headed naga sort of thing surrounded by the 8 I-ching trigrams, with the word "dharma" in the center.

The combination of the I-ching symbolism with the Hindu or Buddhist dharma concept seems a bit odd to me. I think the divinity might be Ananta, (I remember Ananta from one of the Megaten games) but there are various other things it might be too -- lots of Hindu serpent deities.

Is this some sect's symbol, or what? Maybe a band logo?

Isn't that from Lost or am I missing the sarcasm?

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Dharma_Stations#The_Hydra

[Miramon]

Maybe it's from some anime. An orochi is the 8-headed (Japanese) hydra. There's some stories where it fights Amaterasu (goddess of sun). Amaterasu is tricked with 8-sided mirror (like the taoist ones.)
Well, I'm positive it's not Orochi. You wouldn't put Orochi in the frame of the tai chi chuan and label it with the word "dharma".

[Miramon]

Isn't that from Lost or am I missing the sarcasm?

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Dharma_Stations#The_Hydra

Oops, yup, definitely from Lost. I don't watch TV so I don't know this stuff....

[JeffL]

Mu
(--------)

[Dirt]

Moooo

[Aszurom]

Speaking of Buddhism... (rerail)

Yeah, I'm definitely looking for minimal jumping vampires and other mystical horseshit. Watts is speaking from a Zen perspective. I'm not so interested in turning celibate, dumping all my worldly desires, etc. but would rather just clean out my attic some, gain some focus, and rise about the stuff that stresses me out that shouldn't.

I definitely don't want to screw up a wonderful agnostic existence by passing out flowers at the airport or trying to liberate my body thetans.

Also...

A Buddhist walks up to a hotdog stand, and says "Make me one with everything, please."

[Sol Invictus]

Speaking of Zen Buddhism, R. Scott Bakker's "The Prince of Nothing" series of speculative fiction/fantasy novels revolves around a very Buddhist character, and most of the philosophy in it comes from the author's views into the philosophy. Pretty sweet.

I am the logos.

[Aeon221]

A Buddhist walks up to a hotdog stand, and says "Make me one with everything, please."

So, the hot dog vendor fixes a hot dog and hands it to the Zen master, who pays with a $20 bill. The hot dog vendor puts the bill in the cash drawer and closes the drawer. "Where's my change?" asks the Zen master. And the hot dog vendor says, "Change must come from within."

[Houngan]

Speaking of Buddhism... (rerail)

Yeah, I'm definitely looking for minimal jumping vampires and other mystical horseshit. Watts is speaking from a Zen perspective. I'm not so interested in turning celibate, dumping all my worldly desires, etc. but would rather just clean out my attic some, gain some focus, and rise about the stuff that stresses me out that shouldn't.

I definitely don't want to screw up a wonderful agnostic existence by passing out flowers at the airport or trying to liberate my body thetans.

Also...

A Buddhist walks up to a hotdog stand, and says "Make me one with everything, please."

I'm a pretty hardcore athiest/skeptic/science guy, and I find no conflict with Korean Zen. Very occasionally they'll mention reincarnation, but usually as a throwaway end goal of a real-world Zen goal, like "Put down all your attachments, achieve enlightenment, save all beings from suffering, and end the cycle of reincarnation." I really can't recommend enough that you pick up Dropping Ashes on the Buddha.

H.

[Miramon]

So, the hot dog vendor fixes a hot dog and hands it to the Zen master, who pays with a $20 bill. The hot dog vendor puts the bill in the cash drawer and closes the drawer. "Where's my change?" asks the Zen master. And the hot dog vendor says, "Change must come from within."
So the Zen master hit him with a stick. And wouldn't stop, even after the cops came to take him away.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

I'm a pretty hardcore athiest/skeptic/science guy, and I find no conflict with Korean Zen.

Yeah, let's reject the world around us. That's cool. That's a cool philosophy.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Different words, same dangerous illusion. Avoid real-world things you can apprehend with your senses and focus instead on some worthless metaphysical hocus-pocus. Zen was* a religion for servants. Their masters were Confucians.

*And now it's a vestige, preserved here and there in monasteries. Its most visible presence for us is as a hip flavor of orientalism. Eastern Religion to go, with a plastic fork.

[Dirt]

I guess Unicorn McGriddle has never heard of Neo-Confucianism.

[Houngan]

Different words, same dangerous illusion. Avoid real-world things you can apprehend with your senses and focus instead on some worthless metaphysical hocus-pocus. Zen was* a religion for servants. Their masters were Confucians.

*And now it's a vestige, preserved here and there in monasteries. Its most visible presence for us is as a hip flavor of orientalism. Eastern Religion to go, with a plastic fork.


You should have just posted a five-year-old saying "Nuh-uh!" It would have carried the same weight as your almost-perfectly wrong statement.

H.

[Bill Hiles]

One of my favorite Zen stories...

Sometime in the early 1970s, two Buddhist masters met in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

One of them, Kalu Rinpoche, was a renowned Tibetan meditation master who had spent many years in solitary retreat in the remote mountain caves of Tibet.

The other was Seung Sahn, a Korean Zen master who had recently come to the United States and was supporting himself by working in a Providence, Rhode Island, Laundromat,
slowly planting the seeds of Zen in the minds of those coming to wash their clothes.

At this now famous meeting of enlightened minds, Seung Sahn held up an orange and, in classic Zen dharma combat fashion, demanded, "What is this?"

Kalu Rinpoche just looked at him, wonderingly.

Again Master Seung Sahn asked,"What is this?"

Finally, Rinpoche turned to his translator and asked, "Don't they have oranges in Korea?"

[Miramon]

Different words, same dangerous illusion. Avoid real-world things you can apprehend with your senses and focus instead on some worthless metaphysical hocus-pocus. Zen was* a religion for servants. Their masters were Confucians.

*And now it's a vestige, preserved here and there in monasteries. Its most visible presence for us is as a hip flavor of orientalism. Eastern Religion to go, with a plastic fork.
I don't think any of this is correct.

[idrisz]

Buddhists from the past is somewhat different from Zen now days.

If you were an Emperor back then, Buddhism is a threat, what's worse than a bunch of his/her peasants decided to not work or fight and instead just meditate all day long.

It's a non-productive religion overall, there a couple of instances in Asia history, Emperor or Lord had a massive ban on buddhism.

[Dirt]

There are have been massive bans on Taoism by Emperors who showered favor on Buddhism and vice versa.

The monks are pretty non-productive in the sense they beg for food. The lay people had to work and couldn't devote themselves to meditation to obtain Nirvana. This is why, I suspect, that Buddhism in China is now a melding of the Pure Land (Amitabha) tradition and the Chan tradition.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Or you could just draw your next post from a PRC press release about the Dalai Lama, they seem to be written to your level of ignorant glib malice.

Believe it or not, the Chinese government is not wrong about everything.

[idrisz]

There are have been massive bans on Taoism by Emperors who showered favor on Buddhism and vice versa.

The monks are pretty non-productive in the sense they beg for food. The lay people had to work and couldn't devote themselves to meditation to obtain Nirvana. This is why, I suspect, that Buddhism in China is now a melding of the Pure Land (Amitabha) tradition and the Chan tradition.

Taoism was never singularly banned as a religion in China as far as I know, the bases of Confucianism is in Taoism, as well as Ancestor worshiping which Chinese still practice today.

Confucianism was the base of Emperor control over his empire, and Lao Zi who is the origin of Taoism is actually the teacher of Confucius.

[Dirt]

Taoism was never singularly banned as a religion in China as far as I know, the bases of Confucianism is in Taoism, as well as Ancestor worshiping which Chinese still practice today.

Yuan. Qing. It was restricted by the ROC in China. PRC.

Confucianism was the base of Emperor control over his empire, and Lao Zi who is the origin of Taoism is actually the teacher of Confucius.

That's folklore. It's never been proven that Lao Zi ever really existed.

[idrisz]

PRC restricts all the religions. I don't know why ROC want to restrict Taoism, IMO it's a much better philosophy than Buddhism.

That's folklore. It's never been proven that Lao Zi ever really existed.
Yes, now days, but back then, it was taken as a fact by Emperor and citizens.

I never heard of a ban on Taoism in history, there were dismissed, but rarely outright banned.

Unlike the Bans on Buddhism where monastery was torn down, religious book burned and monk/nun forced to give up Buddhist lives.

[Miramon]

Idrisz, I usually have no problems with misspellings in the forums, but please. Just this once:

"Nowadays." Not "now days". Even though this may be completely illogical and stupid to someone who had to learn English as a second language. It looks really bad without the 'a'.

Thank you. We now return to the discussion of why Zen has nothing to do with Buddhism despite making the question of who and what has the Buddha-nature its most widely argued problem.

[idrisz]

Thanks Miramon, I always wonder about that.


anyways, I don't believe in this Zen rubbish, and I found a good night sleep much more relaxing than doing mantra or sitting in meditative position.

[Dirt]

Saying Zen has nothing to do with Buddhism is like saying Mormonism has nothing to do with Christianity. While it is possible to believe in Jesus without being a Mormon, Mormonism would not exist without Jesus Christ.

Just sayin'.

[Dirt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCwa

I knew I had seen a Chinese naga before. That is one form of the Chinese Creator Goddess that made humans.

[Miramon]

Saying Zen has nothing to do with Buddhism is like saying Mormonism has nothing to do with Christianity. While it is possible to believe in Jesus without being a Mormon, Mormonism would not exist without Jesus Christ.

Just sayin'.
You're right, but I think the relationship between Zen and the rest of Mahayana Buddhism (which I understand it to be derived from) is much stronger than the relationship between the Mormons and the various other Christian sects.

Zen is a Buddhist school that I think most Buddhists would accept as being Buddhist, at least in Japan. I mean, some Theravada or Tantric Buddhist might think that Zen philosophy and meditation practices were not to the point, but he wouldn't say they were heretics.

I don't think most Christian sects acknowledge Mormonism as being Christian, however, it's just too far out. Of course the Mormons say they're Christians, but it's a different situation, since they place so much stock in a secondary holy book and holy story that other Christians think is fiction, not to mention isolating themselves with practices that are either forbidden to other Christians (like polygamy) or are just not generally thought to be part of the religion (like the special underwear).

Anyhow, I think Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen) doesn't have a bad article on Zen, which gives some more flavor to the heritage, making it seem less like some alien sect. Note that Zen schools practice chanting and liturgy just like other temples and monasteries, though their justification for it is kind of funny.

[wisefool]

Thanks Miramon, I always wonder about that.


anyways, I don't believe in this Zen rubbish, and I found a good night sleep much more relaxing than doing mantra or sitting in meditative position.

When I was a kid I used to play these tapes. It had a heart beat and a self-hypnosis method. It started by focusing on each part of the body. The tip of the toes. Focus on the fabric touching the toes. It moves on to the top of the head. As you focus each part becomes really, really relaxed. The funny part is I'd be awake yet my respiration and heart rate would be so slow I'd be scared if I hadn't been so relaxed.

I'm gonna have to dig this thing up now.

The power of self-suggestion is amazing. Try something like this tomorrow morning:

"You will count from one to ten. You will open your eyes when I reach one. You will wake up relaxed and rested even thought you went to sleep two hours ago."

[idrisz]

The power of self-suggestion is amazing. Try something like this tomorrow morning:

"You will count from one to ten. You will open your eyes when I reach one. You will wake up relaxed and rested even thought you went to sleep two hours ago."

if I do this everyday, will I go crazy from lack of sleep??

[Miramon]

if I do this everyday, will I go crazy from lack of sleep??
You might die of immune system failure first.

I've used some relaxation techniques like that. They're great, but there's a limit to what they can do. Good for tension headaches, though. Not that techniques like this necessarily banish the headache, though that can happen if you're lucky, but if you just have a headache, you can cope with that alone a lot better than you can cope with a headache, fatigue, and stressed-out irritability.

Nothing to do with Zen meditation, of course, which has no therapeutic, "energizing", or palliative intention.

[Dirt]

Not directly. But Zuo Chan (zazen) helps you to realize your own Buddha nature which will release you from the condition of life and death and an end to suffering.