Truthers Vindicated

[Anti-Bunny]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4278874.html
The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has released its long-awaited report on the collapse of World Trade 7 following the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. "Our take-home message today is that the reason for the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is no longer a mystery," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder told journalists at this morning's press conference in Gaithersburg, Md. "WTC 7 collapsed because of fires fueled by office furnishings. It did not collapse from explosives or from diesel fuel fires."
So the Zionists used IKEA Furniture in place of C4? DIABOLICAL!

[TheWombat]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4278874.html

So the Zionists used IKEA Furniture in place of C4? DIABOLICAL!

Which proves the whole thing had to have been planned months in advance, because that IKEA stuff is a bitch to assemble!

[Rob_Merritt]

http://littlemachineshop.com/Products/Images/480/480.1278.jpg

Tools of the devil.

[tromik]

I imagine most Ikea furniture burns slow with a green flame.

[Rob Beschizza]

The truthers really do think this report vindicates them, and they are legion. A good example is the Digg thread, which is awe-inspiring.

[salwon]

Well let's see - there's four of us, and you're retarded.

[Rob Beschizza]

Well let's see - there's four of us, and you're retarded.

I fear you may have misunderstood something.

[Robert Sharp]

Check this out:

"NIST's recent "scientific" analysis of the collapse of WTC 7 reminds me of what The Iceman (Ice) in the movie Top Gun said about Mavericks claim to have been 2 meters away from the MiG28's canopy while in a 4g inverted dive where his co-pilot Goose took a picture of the Mig pilot. BULL *****!"

Wow! Talk about an overwrought way to getting to the phrase bullshit!

[Hanzii]

Also, wasn't Maverick telling the truth?

[Brad Grenz]

Yeah, ICEMAN was just sexually frustrated by his unrequited love for GOOSEMAN.

Just goes to show you, the Truthers' issues aren't really about facts of the matter. Their campaign is rather the product of deep seeded psychological issues which, quite unconsciously, overthrow their reason. It's actually quite pathetic. They deserve our pity.

[Glenn]

The truthers really do think this report vindicates them, and they are legion. A good example is the Digg thread, which is awe-inspiring.Several digg threads, and in each of them the comments criticizing the Inside Job people have big negative scores.

[salwon]

I fear you may have misunderstood something.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103775

They deserve our pity.

No they don't.

[Rob Beschizza]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103775


Haha, do you think I'm a Truther?

[Ergo]

The truthers really do think this report vindicates them, and they are legion. A good example is the Digg thread, which is awe-inspiring.
Clarify this if possible (I don't want to read the looney Digg threads)--doesn't the finding refute what the Truthers believe?

[Rob Beschizza]

Clarify this if possible (I don't want to read the looney Digg threads)--doesn't the finding refute what the Truthers believe?

Absolutely, as far as I can tell. The clever trick, if that's the right way to put it, was that the Truther who started the most epic of those threads spun it something like this: "Report claims new phenomenon brought down building."

This made it look like the report indulged some inventive new physical hypothesis. However, it was just the first time 9/11's set of circumstances occurred, so well-understood processes applied in a unique way. But because the headline is "new phenomenon invented by NWO-lackey investigator-shills" or whatever, the Truthers wade in to cry "vindicated!"

"Truthers" thrive in the same way creationists and other conspiracy theorists do: by memorizing a library of "gotcha" questions that only a deep and systematic knowledge of the science at hand can readily answer. The bright side of this, however, is that it always implies that the mainstream position is the one supported by an adequate hypothesis, which they are trying to crack.

[Brad Grenz]

I just watched the Mythbusters episode on the moon landing today and I really wish they could do a 9/11 episode, too. It was really great to see them busting the kind of false, but truthy sounding assumptions these kinds of conspiracies rely on.

[Ben Sones]

I actually disagreed with their tackling of the shadows myth, though. I mean, it was good enough for busting the myth, I guess, since it does demonstrate that there are other possible explanations for non-parallel shadows besides multiple light sources. But I think they could have gone the extra step and demonstrated what is actually happening in that photo, which is merely a simple combination of linear perspective and camera optics.

Basically, perspective makes things seem to diminish in the distance. This means that parallel lines actually seem to converge as they move away from you (most people learn this in grade school art class, but apparently not crazy moon conspiracy theorists). Camera lenses with short focal lengths also tend to exaggerate perspective--especially on objects near the perimeter of the frame. And short focal length lenses are almost certainly what the astronauts had on their cameras, since those lenses have a wide field of view and are the photographer's tool of choice for panoramic landscape shots.

So what is actually happening in that shot is that all of the shadows are parallel, and at an angle to the camera, as seen in the close rocks. But the apparent angle of the rock shadows is exaggerated by their closeness to the camera, and the apparent angle of the lander shadow is diminished by distance. You could easily replicate this effect by taking a camera with a short lens outside and shooting some objects by sunlight on a flat surface. You'd need to replicate the actual scale of the photo, though, which the Mythbusters' model failed to do.

[Anti-Bunny]

Truthers Respond! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7U22m9xLrQ)

[Anti-Bunny]

Looks like the Truthers have a friend in the white house.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/back-story/2009/sep/03/green-jobs-czar-signed-truther-statement-in-2004/
Mr. Jones signed a statement for 911Truth.org in 2004 demanding an investigation into what the Bush Administration may have done that “deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen, perhaps as a pretext for war.”

His name is listed with 99 other prominent signatories supporting such an investigation on the 911Truth.org website, including Code Pink co-founders Medea Benjamin and Jodi Evans, comedienne Janeane Garofalo, Democratic Rep. Cynthia McKinney of Georgia and others. He's identified as the executive director for the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights on the statement, which he founded before going to the White House. The statement is available here. Mr. Jones is number 46. (http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633)

The Washington Times is referring to Obama's 'Green Jobs Czar' Van Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Jones).

[Qmanol]

Not quite mapped to truthers, more along the lines of why the intelligence warning of 9/11 was ignored. Of course, given the treatment that anything tainted with the stench of Democrat received on the entry of the Bush Administration into the White House, it's very hard to argue that it was not simply ignored for petty partisan reasons, rather than any grand malicious scheme.

[krise madsen]

I'm waiting for Glenn Beck to catch on to this and demand a preemptive invasion of Denmark, the capitol of IKEA.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

Shit, what if this means that IKEA brought down WTC1 and 2 as well? The planes were simply a catalyst allowing the infernal Scandinavian furniture clustered in the top-floor executive suites to work their white heat magic on the supporting structures.

[Anti-Bunny]

The not-a-truther-anymore responds
A top environmental official of the Obama administration issued a statement Thursday apologizing for past incendiary statement and denying that he ever agreed with a 2004 petition on which his name appears, a petition calling for congressional hearings and an investigation by the New York Attorney General into “evidence that suggests high-level government officials may have deliberately allowed the September 11th attacks to occur.”

Van Jones, the Special Advisor for Green Jobs at the White House Council on Environmental Quality, is Number 46 of the petitioners from the so-called “Truther” movement which suggests that people in the administration of President George W. Bush “may indeed have deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen, perhaps as a pretext for war.”

In a statement issued Thursday evening Jones said of “the petition that was circulated today, I do not agree with this statement and it certainly does not reflect my views now or ever.”

He did not explain how his name came to be on the petition.

“My work at the Council on Environmental Quality is entirely focused on one goal: building clean energy incentives which create 21st century jobs that improve energy efficiency and use renewable resources,” Jones said in his statement tonight.

Jones also said in his statement that “In recent days some in the news media have reported on past statements I made before I joined the administration – some of which were made years ago. If I have offended anyone with statements I made in the past, I apologize.”

[wahoo]

I think Jones is toast. His new line of defense is that he didn't read the document carefully before he signed it. I didn't realize just how nuanced the truther document was before he signed it.

[Anti-Bunny]

Not quite mapped to truthers

Dude. The pentition was FROM the "9/11 Truth Movement".

[wahoo]

75/25 Jones resigns this afternoon so this gets buried in the long-holiday news black hole. He's not getting a vote of confidence from the White House.

From Jake Tapper:
Asked if controversial White House official Van Jones continues to enjoy the confidence of President Obama given recent revelations about his involvement with those who suggest the Bush administration knew about the 9/11 attacks and allowed them to happen in order to justify a war for oil, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs Friday morning would only say "he continues to work in this administration."

[Jason McCullough]

Well, that'll teach him to sign stuff without looking into the details.

[wahoo]

Well, that'll teach him to sign stuff without looking into the details.

That's one lesson. The other is:

If you want to ever hold a politically sensitive job, don't be an organizer of a rally asking why the CIA was making money selling United/American shorts on 9/11 or similar questions that makes you look like a frigging nutjob.

[MattKeil]

Coincidentally (or is it?!) I caught 9-11: In Plane Site (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2329092821935314404#) on Netflix last night, which made for decent trash TV background noise. I was interested in the part where they talk about something being attached to the undersides of the planes that hit the WTC, primarily because no matter how many times they showed the close-ups of the plane footage, I could never see what the hell they were talking about.

[Houngan]

I can see it clearly, although I'm not going to attest it isn't a shadow. The WTC stuff isn't very good, the flash is interesting on the second tower, but it could be the nose of the plane making contact and raising a puff of dust that is hit by the sun. When they try to find a flash on the first tower, it's pretty desperate, because the nose shadow is there by the time of the flash, while they try to point out the bigger shadow of the wings not being there as proof the plane hadn't made contact.

But, and I know I'll get mauled for this, I found the pentagon section compelling. I've never really been impressed with the official report on that one. All the information seems like it could support a small plane packed with explosives. I'm not buying the bunker-buster theory at all.

H.

edit: And of course I'm now looking up rebuttals, so go easy on me.

[Houngan]

Man, it's hard to google anything beyond the conspiracy sites, but Wikipedia seems to have a pretty solid take on it. Quite a bit of debris WAS found in the site, which none of the conspiracy sites mention, and apparently they found both black boxes.

H.

[DragonPup]

To paraphrase my father on the whole truther issue, "Look at how the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars were run. Do you really think the Bush administration was competent enough to pull off a conspiracy like this?"

[MattKeil]

Clearly it wasn't the Bush administration. It was FEMA, the Secret Government!

[alexlitel]

So Van Jones has resigned (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-ap-us-obama-adviser-resigns,0,7496882.story) over an issue that has nothing to do with his job; an extraordinary and capable man has lost his chance to make perhaps his meaningful contribution to this country due to fucking red herring thrown out by self-hating Americans.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/food-for-everyone/van-jones-beyond-the-politics-of-confrontation/?searchterm=van%20jones

I think that we’ve gotten ourselves into a bit of a logjam of accusation and blame on all sides of American politics and that it’s time for some of us to give up the addiction to being righteous, being victims, and having the right to be mad at somebody.

It’s not that we are wrong when we point out the exploitation, the oppression, the bigotry, the incredible levels of discrimination that so many people experience. I just don’t think that litany and that dirge is something that has worked out well in terms of getting us the power we need in order to fix it.

I think the power we need to fix it comes from saying that all of that is true, and there is another truth. The other truth is that, despite all of that, there’s still more good in each and every person than there is bad—that there is still more reason for us to work together than for us to fight.

If I have to fight you, I’ll fight you, but I would rather work with you to get a better outcome for my children and for your children.

[Houngan]

To paraphrase my father on the whole truther issue, "Look at how the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars were run. Do you really think the Bush administration was competent enough to pull off a conspiracy like this?"

To be clear, I've never entertained the idea that Bush was behind the whole thing. But I'm willing to consider the gov't covering up an effective low-tech attack on the Pentagon to save face. I.E. a truck bomb drove up to the wall and detonated, and they changed it to another plane. The conspiracy folks want it to be a bunker-buster because that implies our own involvement, but I see a small plane + explosives or something else "embarassing" way before any silliness like that.

H.

[Calistas]

The conspiracy folks are completely fucking insane when it comes to the Pentagon. It was the plane we all know it was as hundreds of people SAW THE DAMN THING FLY IN. I mean, WTF do the truthers think those people saw? Hundreds of people can't tell the difference between a Boeing and a missile??

[Anti-Bunny]

So Van Jones has resigned (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-ap-us-obama-adviser-resigns,0,7496882.story) over an issue that has nothing to do with his job; an extraordinary and capable man has lost his chance to make perhaps his meaningful contribution to this country due to fucking red herring thrown out by self-hating Americans.

Oh please, the guy believes a completely nutball conspiracy and knowingly destroys his career forever in the science community by signing their goofy petition. Does that mean anything to you? You're not asking yourself why Obama's team doesn't bother to vet anyone? Jeez, how hard would it have been to google his name?

[alexlitel]

Oh please, the guy believes a completely nutball conspiracy and knowingly destroys his career forever in the science community by signing their goofy petition.That did not happen. And Van Jones is not also not a scientist, but an activist and advocate. People dedicated to ensuring Obama fails - who I previously described as the "self-hating Americans" - ruined his governmental career (he'll be back making a difference in the non-profit sector soon), he did not. And he doesn't hold those views anymore.

Does that mean anything to you? You're not asking yourself why Obama's team doesn't bother to vet anyone?He's the best possible candidate for the job, which to the non-Libertarian-concerned-progressive is a position as desperately needed in the administration. It's also still a fucking red herring/straw man, which is a form of argument I don't have much respect for.

Jeez, how hard would it have been to google his name?If you think he is a scientist, maybe you need to Google. I have been familiar with him for four or five years, and quite respect the man.

[Inuvix]

People dedicated to ensuring Obama fails - who I previously described as the "self-hating Americans" - ruined his governmental career (he'll be back making a difference in the non-profit sector soon), he did not.

Right. He didn't have anything to do with it. They just made all that shit up.

And he doesn't hold those views anymore.

And your evidence is that he said as much when it was politically expedient?

He's the best possible candidate for the job, which to the non-Libertarian-concerned-progressive is a position as desperately needed in the administration.

He's the best candidate in Obama's eyes too, until his true views are exposed in which case he becomes a liability.

I have been familiar with him for four or five years, and quite respect the man.

Communist. Truther. Cop-killer supporter.

I can't understand why this guy would draw any support.

[Spam]

Doesn't make any sense to me. Anecdotally speaking, non-self-hating people are usually on the right, content with their lot in life whatever their income and social status, have no interest in interfering with others, and are very interested in making sure that others cannot interfere with them. If advocating personal responsibility and failing to try to make other people solve one's own problems makes somebody a "wrecker" I guess it's at least internally consistent.

[Soapyfrog]

Anecdotally speaking, non-self-hating people are usually on the right, content with their lot in life whatever their income and social status, have no interest in interfering with others,
Haha! Good one!

The right is all about imposing it's values on everyone.

[Angie Gallant]

There is a guy on another forum I sometimes read who was driving past the pentagon when the plane was coming in and had the presence of mind to take a couple of pictures. He put the pictures up on his website before scrubbing the domain registry of his contact information. He still gets hate calls at 2 am by Truthers calling him a government pawn.

[AaronSofaer]

That's ... almost expected, but still saddening.

[Adam Eayrs]

If he didn't have the presence of mind to realize what kind of liability he was accepting when he put his name on Truther material, then it's unlikely he'd be effective in cabinet.

[alexlitel]

Communist. Truther. Cop-killer supporter.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/30095/

— That he's an avowed communist
— That he believes we need a "whole new system"
— No apology for his campaign to free communist cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal
— Not a word from Van Jones about being a member of the revolutionary, communist group, STORM
— He has not apologized for his radical past as a black nationalist


Classy.

[Anti-Bunny]

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/30095/



Classy.

Soooo.. because Blen Gleck has said it, it means it isn't true?

Also I don't remember where I said he was a scientist... But I would imagine if you're the 'green job czar', you'd probably want to be taken seriously by scientists.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Soooo.. because Blen Gleck has said it, it means it isn't true?

Yeah, pretty much!

[Anti-Bunny]

Yeah, pretty much!

No, not really!

[wahoo]

This isn't rocket science.

You can not have a guy in an Administration who is on record alleging the CIA and FBI was involved in 9/11.

[alexlitel]

Soooo.. because Blen Gleck has said it, it means it isn't true?Or that it doesn't mean shit. And are fucking red herrings/straw men to a "green jobs czar." And I wasn't aware that communists wrote books about protecting the free-market from stagflation, though I admit I haven't kept up with the diurnal oscillations of the neo-John Birch gangbang to undermine America. And two other people who signed that petition says (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Trutherismlite_and_a_second_Jones_tie.html?showall ) they were misled as to its contents, and a person's opinion can change.

Also I don't remember where I said he was a scientist... But I would imagine if you're the 'green job czar', you'd probably want to be taken seriously by scientists.I apologize for forgetting you were the foremost authority on the occurrences in the American environmental science community.


Anyways, if the Obama backs down this easily on defending a progressive, I worry about what's in store for healthcare.

[forgeforsaken]

Honestly, doesn't it seem like that Glenn Beck should be a truther with all his crazy conspiracy stuff?

[Anti-Bunny]

This isn't rocket science.

No, but you will always have people ready to defend every mistake of this administration, no matter how obviously boneheaded.

[Pogo]

Haha! Good one!

The right is all about imposing it's values on everyone.

Don't make the ignorant mistake of thinking "the left" isn't doing the same.

Anyways, if the Obama backs down this easily on defending a progressive, I worry about what's in store for healthcare.

The guy really isn't worth defending this much.

[Robert Sharp]

Of course they are. But he only had to counter the ridiculous claim that the right is NOT about that.

[Joe M.]

We only want to kill your babies, and your grandma. Otherwise we stay out of your private lives.

[Joe M.]

Oh, and since this is the conspiracy nut thread:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/6/777880/-Send-Me-Everything-You-Can-Find-About-Glenn-Beck

Keith Olbermann wants everything people can find on Glenn Beck.

[Spam]

Of course they are. But he only had to counter the ridiculous claim that the right is NOT about that.

Anecdotally speaking, non-self-hating people .. have no interest in interfering with others




also: 6

[notatiger]

I think the most interesting thing about this event is it shows how organized and resourceful the GOP is compared to my dear Dumbocrats. This is just some signature on a petition, but this guy is out of a job. It just seems like such a petty thing, but it is such an effective wedge. I'm just impressed.

[Lizard_King]

I think the most interesting thing about this event is it shows how organized and resourceful the GOP is compared to my dear Dumbocrats. This is just some signature on a petition, but this guy is out of a job. It just seems like such a petty thing, but it is such an effective wedge. I'm just impressed.

It's not a petty thing. Not for the reasons Glenn Beck thinks it's significant, obviously, but if you are going to argue against an established narrative in public, you had better have the common sense to make sure you're not hitched to a crazy train. Start the damage control the moment the situation gets out of hand, not years later when someone calls you on it. Seeing Janeane Garofalo on the list should have been a tip off.

All of the other things on Beck's list are relatively inoffensive matters that even this administration could have defended with its collective hands tied behind its back as they are right now. This sort of targeted attack snowballing is par for the course these days, as that asshole Republican with his "chain 'em to the kitchen" thesis found out recently. Lucky finds or accidental reveals will compound in unpredictable ways, and they will always seem to favor the currently disadvantaged party. That's not to say you shouldn't be impressed that people who will regularly disavow evolution can manage such a feat, just that it's not all their doing.

[DragonPup]

Honestly, doesn't it seem like that Glenn Beck should be a truther with all his crazy conspiracy stuff?

If 9/11 happened the exact same way but under Gore, Beck would be a truther on 9/12.

[notatiger]

It's not a petty thing.

You obviously have some pretty strong objective evidence to back up your position, but I just feel like signing a petition is just such a minor thing. I've personally signed petitions for things I don't agree with, and even some wacky things, for various reasons. Signing a petition just doesn't seem like something you should lose your job over to me.

[Eric T Cheng]

Oh, and since this is the conspiracy nut thread:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/6/777880/-Send-Me-Everything-You-Can-Find-About-Glenn-Beck

Keith Olbermann wants everything people can find on Glenn Beck.

Last week Olbermann had as The Worst Person in the World the person who started the "Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in the 1990s" rumour (albeit not mentioning on the air the "rape and murder a young girl" part).

[Brad Grenz]

You obviously have some pretty strong objective evidence to back up your position, but I just feel like signing a petition is just such a minor thing. I've personally signed petitions for things I don't agree with, and even some wacky things, for various reasons. Signing a petition just doesn't seem like something you should lose your job over to me.

Well, it depends on how heinous the contents of the petition, no? If someone in Bush's cabinet had their name discovered on a petition to have minorities forcibly sterilized, is that no big deal? 'Cause it sounds like something that person should be fired for.

[wahoo]

This petition is not a minor thing. It accuses the FBI/CIA of being in a conspiracy that allowed 9/11.

The President also oversees those agencies. I can't imagine that Panetta would be happy to have someone else in the Administration on record touting this garbage conspiracy.

It's also so far out there than everyone from the center left onwards will thing this guy is a kook. So he had to go.

This is as no brainer a resignation as it gets.

[alexlitel]

Complete and utter fucking bullshit that I've posted six times already.Fixed it for you.

[StGabe]

Our political system is basically screwed until it can transcend bullshit "gotcha" attacks. Period.

Carry on ...

[DragonPup]

Our political system is basically screwed until it can transcend bullshit "gotcha" attacks. Period.

Carry on ...

Then we are screwed.

[Brad Grenz]

Then there's only one thing left to do. And remember, end of the world sex is always lady's choice.