McCain can't remember how many houses he owns

[Gabe Lewis]

I didn't see a thread for this, and I do enjoy a good Republican hypocrisy pile-on:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_houses


Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said in an interview Wednesday that he was uncertain how many houses he and his wife, Cindy, own.
"I think — I'll have my staff get to you," McCain told Politico in Las Cruces, N.M. "It's condominiums where — I'll have them get to you."


Elsewhere I've read that the Democrats are planning a pretty quick offensive on this. I'm not sure what it will get them, I've always felt that theres an unspoken comfort with aristocracy in America.

I suppose McCain could have probably figured it out, but he would have had to start counting on is fingers, and it would look really bad had he ended using all of them.

[Andrew Mayer]

Elsewhere I've read that the Democrats are planning a pretty quick offensive on this. I'm not sure what it will get them, I've always felt that theres a unspoken comfort with aristocracy in America.

Guess we're going to find out. (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/new_obama_ad_hits_mccain_on_nu.php)

[Tankero]

Pretty tame, somewhat convoluted and nowhere near visceral enough.

[malphigian]

Yes, but John McCain eats only iceberg lettuce in his 7 houses, whereas Obama eats arugula in his giant house.

Who would you rather eat a salad with?

[Andrew Mayer]

Pretty tame, somewhat convoluted and nowhere near visceral enough.

I have to admit that I find the Democratic attack ads oddly polite. I don't think it helps.

[Bob Cherub]

OMFG HE OWNS HOUSES.

HOW DARE HE OWN HOUSES.

[madkevin]

Do you know how many houses you own, Bob?

[Linoleum]

I suspect somebody in the Obama campaign is rubbing their forehead mumbling "uh, guys, are real estate issues (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/27/grim_proving_ground_for_obamas_housing_policy/) really something we want to make a focus of in this campaign?"

[Dirt]

Maybe he doesn't remember because it's his wife's money.

Hrm. More proof Obama is more concerned about things that will make him President then really representing the people.

Obama has a "when I become President, I'm going to" plan hidden away somewhere in his brain. If he becomes President, I expect that he'll be doing a lot of major things that nobody would expect from how he's presented himself. It remains to be seen if it's good or bad.

[StGabe]

Not sure that's the greatest ad but I do think that Obama is right to start pushing McCain further on economic issues. McCain has been tracking up on economic issues based pretty much solely on this stupid off-shore drilling non-issue. I think Obama needs to bring attention back to all the other things that went wrong with our economy during Bush's tenure.

[malphigian]

I suspect somebody in the Obama campaign is rubbing their forehead mumbling "uh, guys, are real estate issues (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/27/grim_proving_ground_for_obamas_housing_policy/) really something we want to make a focus of in this campaign?"

That was the McCain response as well (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/mccain_campaign_response_obama.php), which is why I made the salad comment.

I guess an inane attack deserves an inane response, but seriously, why not? Hypocrisy has never stopped republican attacks from working. Let's recall the Vietnam-dodging Bush's attacks on Kerry's actual service in Vietnam. Or, more appropriately, his attacks on McCain's military service in 2000.

[Houngan]

I suppose McCain could have probably figured it out, but he would have had to start counting on is fingers, and it would look really bad had he ended using all of them.

And as it turns out, he would have. Used them, that is, since he apparently owns ten houses. Good thing the Vietcong didn't chop off one of his fingers, or he would have had to remove a shoe.

H.

[wisefool]

I'm in a strange mood today, but why do we blame the politicians?

Why not blame the public that keeps voting based on these ridiculously-transparent attacks?

[StGabe]

Why not blame the public that keeps voting based on these ridiculously-transparent attacks?

Because it doesn't accomplish anything. We can't try to elect a new public. We can try to elect political figures who inspire better politics.

[Damien Neil]

Yes, but John McCain eats only iceberg lettuce in his 7 houses, whereas Obama eats arugula in his giant house.

Who would you rather eat a salad with?

Obama, obviously. Iceberg lettuce is nasty.

[Gramuxius]

Because it doesn't accomplish anything. We can't try to elect a new public. We can try to elect political figures who inspire better politics.

Doesn't that kind of destroy the reason for having a democracy in the first place? If people can't to be trusted to make informed decisions, what's the point of letting them have power?

Worrying about people being stupid could at least lead to support for educating them. Simply hoping that the mainly misinformed people will happen to elect someone benevolent does seem a bit optimistic. You might as well discard the resource-wasting election process and implement a proper aristocracy.

[Dirt]

It's the fear of stupid people that caused the Founding Fathers to create the Electoral College.

[Angie Gallant]

The Obama campaign is also doing phone surveys in Florida and Pennsylvania today asking people if they can remember how many homes they own. The results are going to be used for a second ad.

[salwon]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, democracy simply doesn't work.

[Dirt]

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

bippitty boppity boo

[Quaro]

Does a guy who worries about the price of arugula and thinks regular people "cling" to guns and religion in the face of economic hardship really want to have a debate about who's in touch with regular Americans?

I can't believe the McCain camp officially pushes the arugula thing now.

[BlueJackalope]

OMFG HE OWNS HOUSES.

HOW DARE HE OWN HOUSES.

http://ndn.newsweek.com/media/77/071211_candidateshomes_wide-horizontal.jpg

They are some pretty nice homes Bob (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/21/there-s-no-places-like-homes.aspx).

Its a pretty meh issue. All our major politicians are rich these days. But, it does provided a nice opening for Obama to make McCain look both out of touch ( $5 million defines "rich" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080818/pl_afp/usvoteeconomyvp), that's income bitches, not assets) and a bit forgetful (aka....old).

[bago]

ObamaCamp: You’re absurdly wealthy! Don't even know how many houses you have!
McCainCamp: Oh yeah, well you’re not even rich (less than 5 million according to McCain) and worry about the price of things, like food and housing!

I mean, wow. Just, wow.

[Rasputin]

Dude! Is that one on the lower left the Amityville Horror house?

[StGabe]

Doesn't that kind of destroy the reason for having a democracy in the first place? If people can't to be trusted to make informed decisions, what's the point of letting them have power?

No one ever claimed democracy was perfect. A lot of American's won't make informed decisions. Some will. Most will work with what you give them. If they get some candidates that are willing and capable of raising up the level of debate then they're more willing to do that themselves.

The question isn't really, "why give people the power?" It's who the heck else could you possibly give power to, other than the people. Democracy may not be perfect but it's the best we've got.

[Andrew Mayer]

Obama is opening up the populist whoopass can (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/209518.php)today.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays, but I think it's a smart move heading into November, and it's a message that can be honed over the next few weeks.

[JeffL]

Ugh. I was/am hoping that Obama does something different this campaign and doesn't stoop to stupid ads like this. America, McCain has heavily invested in real estate - he obviously is not qualified to be president.

A much more effective ad would sound byte McCain responding that he thought the threshold for "rich" is about $5 million. Something like "one difference between Barack Obama and John McCain is who they think should shoulder more of the cost for helping those in this country who desperately need help with health care, xxx, and xxx (insert photo of single mother clutching small child as she stares at the entrance to a hospital - I'd also have a couple of expensive cars parked where you could see them next to the hospital entrance.) John McCain feels that someone making $4.9 million dollars isn't rich and thus should be sheltered from any obligation to help." Insert clip of McCain smiling and saying he thinks rich starts at about $5 million. Wordsmithed much better of course.

[Andrew Mayer]

Ugh. I was/am hoping that Obama does something different this campaign and doesn't stoop to stupid ads like this. America, McCain has heavily invested in real estate - he obviously is not qualified to be president.

The real estate market has collapsed, and it's hurting the middle class badly. It hits on multiple levels, including the fact that he's somehow managed to be so unscathed by the disaster that he can't even remember how many homes he has.

It's really the perfect line of attack.

[StGabe]

Yeah, I don't think the "how many houses does McCain own" was the right way to take this.

I do think that throwing back McCain's kooky quotes in his face is a good strategy though and Obama has been bringing up the $5 million to be rich thing a lot as well.

The thing is, and this speaks well of Obama on a certain level, you can tell his heart really isn't in it. He really wants to be able to analyze and talk about real problems and not throw around this crap. But I think he's feeling a lot of pressure to do so anyway. When you hear him attacking McCain directly though he definitely doesn't have the conviction and power behind his words that he does when talking more directly on issues he cares about.

So I think he should keep the more personal stuff out of it and just continue publicizing McCain's hit list of asinine quotes with a backdrop of "and here's what we'll do".

[malphigian]

Ugh. I was/am hoping that Obama does something different this campaign and doesn't stoop to stupid ads like this. America, McCain has heavily invested in real estate - he obviously is not qualified to be president.

You were hoping that so he'd lose?

The segment of the American public that matters in elections (swing voters in swing states) has proven time and again that what works best to convince them are stupid attacks that sound good regardless of their actual merit.

A much more effective ad would sound byte McCain responding that he thought the threshold for "rich" is about $5 million.

Watch the link Andrew Mayer posted above, he does pretty much just what you said.

[salwon]

I'd also have a couple of expensive cars parked where you could see them next to the hospital entrance.

They should be parked in an ambulance only zone.

[Quaro]

I don't know how I feel about this. Recent trends seem to show shallow negative ads work. And I do feel like Obama is more justified in this, it's more like a response to all the recent McCain ads. Multiple ads around the idea Obama is out of touch with the average American -- when McCain's lifestyle is as distant, or more distant.

[Jason McCullough]

The thing is, and this speaks well of Obama on a certain level, you can tell his heart really isn't in it.

And you know this, uh, how? Does he call you for advice late at night?

[Gabe Lewis]

A much more effective ad would sound byte McCain responding that he thought the threshold for "rich" is about $5 million.

Why miss the opportunity to point out that "The Original Maverick" is so well to do he can't remember just how well to do he is?

Jeff, you're asking the Obama camp to say, "What is this, some kind of loaded gun pointed right at the person I want to kill? I can't take this, it would be low."

[extarbags]

Ugh. I was/am hoping that Obama does something different this campaign and doesn't stoop to stupid ads like this. America, McCain has heavily invested in real estate - he obviously is not qualified to be president.

That's not what this is. McCain can't open his mouth without critiquing Obama's lettuce choices by way of calling him an out-of-touch elitist; this ad is just saying "Motherfucker, seriously? You're so rich you can't even keep track of how many mansions you own, and you're calling me elitist?" And that's a perfectly fair counterpunch.

[JeffL]

The real estate market has collapsed, and it's hurting the middle class badly. It hits on multiple levels, including the fact that he's somehow managed to be so unscathed by the disaster that he can't even remember how many homes he has.

It's really the perfect line of attack.

I lost a ton of money due to the real estate collapse, on a house that I should have made a lot of money on. I had to borrow money to sell my house, and we are struggling hard with my kid's college costs due to all we had to go through. I also had to live away from my family for a while as a result of this (due to job change, etc.) We had ulcers - me, literally - from the stress of dropping the cost of the house, offers that never came through worrying about the mounting costs, etc.

My company is tied to the welfare of companies whose income is severely hurt by the real estate market. I may actually have to take a salary cut as we struggle to stay afloat, and I'm desperately trying to figure out how to help the folks in my lab not get pay cuts.

Even with all of that - this ad falls flat with me. McCain invested in real estate. Oh, that makes him so out of touch. He can't remember how many investments he has in real estate - yep, he's rich all right. Oh yeah, Obama is rich too, he has made a bajillion dollars on his books. It just doesn't touch any emotive chords in a direct way unless you're predisposed to dislike McCain. Put it this way - if there was a McCain ad where someone asked Obama how many investments he had in real estate, and he responded, you'd have to ask my accountant to get the most accurate answer, would that make you dislike Obama?

The ad is just dumb and if anything makes the undecided person (which is who ads are targeted at) think, hmm, Obama is rich too, what's the point?

[StGabe]

And you know this, uh, how? Does he call you for advice late at night?

By comparing his his recent speeches on McCain's houses, etc., to his speeches on issues he cares about. The conviction and power he puts into a lot of his speeches just isn't there and he comes across as vaguely uncomfortable.

It makes it harder for him to push these attacks but it does at least speak well to his principles and seems to be evidence that he's not just a talented speaker but that there really is a good measure of sincerity in his speeches (i.e. if he was just a good speaker, he would be able to give the negative speeches just as easily as the other ones).

[JeffL]

Why miss the opportunity to point out that "The Original Maverick" is so well to do he can't remember just how well to do he is?

Jeff, you're asking the Obama camp to say, "What is this, some kind of loaded gun pointed right at the person I want to kill? I can't take this, it would be low."

Not at all - I think it's just a shallow and petty ad. Not meaty enough to be a pointed gun. I expect Obama to use rocket launchers, and this comes across as a silly water pistol to me.

[Jason McCullough]

Even with all of that - this ad falls flat with me.

That's because you're a fairly well off guy who doesn't like populism or criticizing rich people, jeff, not because it's an ineffective ad. It's a perfect gaffe by McCain; they can ride this one for a while. Remember most campaign ads are designed to be very low-brow and half-assed, too.

By comparing his his recent speeches on McCain's houses, etc., to his speeches on issues he cares about. The conviction and power he puts into a lot of his speeches just isn't there and he comes across as vaguely uncomfortable.

Right. Coincidentally it's the same thing David Brooks is now saying about McCain (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014333.php) - he clearly doesn't mean it with all these stupid attacks, based on my mind-reading and wishful hopes about what a good person he is.

[StGabe]

Right. Coincidentally it's the same thing David Brooks is now saying about McCain (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014333.php) - he clearly doesn't mean it with all these stupid attacks, based on my mind-reading and wishful hopes about what a good person he is.

Which is fine. David Brooks might or might not be right. It doesn't really matter though because that's ALL we're getting out of McCain these days: kooky comments and personal attacks on Obama. I am actually saying, FWIW, that Obama can't pull off the more personal aspects of these attacks and it's a mistake for him to try. So your attempt to frame me as nothing but an Obama-whore fails: my thesis is that he's making a mistake. My corollary is that at least it shows a bit of character.

There's a clear difference in the tenor, scope and number of attacks being made by both campaigns. If you can't see that, then I'm not sure what we have to talk about.

FWIW, here's the speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycIq8GeDxfo) I was basing my comment on.

[Shadari]

Dude! Is that one on the lower left the Amityville Horror house?
No, but it is rather similar. You know, the actual Amityville house was heavily renovated such that it no longer resembles its original form. This was done in order to discourage site-seers and such. They even changed the address. At least that’s what Wikipedia says….

[BlueJackalope]

Right. Coincidentally it's the same thing David Brooks is now saying about McCain (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014333.php) - he clearly doesn't mean it with all these stupid attacks, based on my mind-reading and wishful hopes about what a good person he is.

I've heard (John Dickerson? Ron Elving? I don't know) say that McCain was sincere about wanting to have weekly, unmoderated, town-hall style appearances with Obama and feels had Obama agreed, the campaign wouldn't have gone negative (it feels like 90% of the negative ads are coming from McCain at this point, but he's had to tear Obama down. We'll see what happens as the race tightens.)

There were obvious reasons for Obama not to agree to that format (The hundred jillion dollar advantage he has for starters) but in retrospect, it may have ultimately benefited both sides and changed the tone.

Both men are personally appealing and it would have been interesting to see if, with both of them on the same stage, they could elevate the conversation.

[JeffL]

That's because you're a fairly well off guy who doesn't like populism or criticizing rich people, jeff, not because it's an ineffective ad. It's a perfect gaffe by McCain; they can ride this one for a while. Remember most campaign ads are designed to be very low-brow and half-assed, too.


LOL! Yeah, I'm doing pretty well these days after decades of working my ass off, but to say that I don't like populism is ignorant. You really would have to know more about me and the rest of my family (on both my side and my wife's) as well as my upbringing to make more accurate generalizations.

As for attacking rich people, you're right: attacking someone purely because they have done well comes across as immature and bigoted to me.

But again, you're assumption is incorrect: I don't like the ad because of the way it is put together - he invested a lot in real estate, so he is unfit for the White House. If Obama was a poor dude who struggled to make his house payments, maybe. From a guy who is a multimillionaire and dresses in $4000 Italian suits - give me a break. He needs to not listen to the advisor who put that one together and not waste valuable air ad time on something that weak.

[bago]

Rove started it. Obama is just cutting his nuts out for trying to pimpslap a chicago politician.

[spiffy]

he invested a lot in real estate, so he is unfit for the White House. .

It's not so much that it's bad that McCain has houses, as much as it's suggested how out of touch he is with the ecomonic woes felt by the average american. Deconstructing the image that, like Bush before him, McCain is not just like you or me, or subject to the same concerns.

[extarbags]

FWIW, this isn't my favorite angle of this for them to be hitting. I really like the John McCain = Grampa Simpson aspect of this better.

[Andrew Mayer]

I've heard (John Dickerson? Ron Elving? I don't know) say that McCain was sincere about wanting to have weekly, unmoderated, town-hall style appearances with Obama and feels had Obama agreed, the campaign wouldn't have gone negative (it feels like 90% of the negative ads are coming from McCain at this point, but he's had to tear Obama down. We'll see what happens as the race tightens.)

"I didn't want to beat you, but you made me do it!"

Yeah, sure.

There were obvious reasons for Obama not to agree to that format (The hundred jillion dollar advantage he has for starters) but in retrospect, it may have ultimately benefited both sides and changed the tone.


Never let the enemy pick the battle site.


Both men are personally appealing and it would have been interesting to see if, with both of them on the same stage, they could elevate the conversation.

Just FYI, they will be on the same stage, for three debates, as usual.

[Talisker]

FWIW, this isn't my favorite angle of this for them to be hitting. I really like the John McCain = Grampa Simpson aspect of this better.
They can't play that up though, at least not directly, without incurring AARP fury.

[extarbags]

Oh, I know. Still, it's funny.

[noun]

I beg to differ with the naysayers, this IS a big issue for someone who's entire campaign revolves around appealing to the common person.

At best, he's so wealthy he doesn't even need to track his assets. His clueless comment from the other day "uh - five million is rich, I guess" would seem to confirm this. But I guarantee most Americans would consider themselves rich with far less than $5 million dollars. Hell, I'd be rich with $150K cash in hand.

At WORST it's another example that he's becoming too senile to keep track of details most of the rest of us would have no trouble handling. Who the fuck can't remember how many houses they own? (Hey Midnight Son, is this a problem you have?) This is not a good candidate for someone who'll be responsible for nuclear weapons.

[BlueJackalope]

Just FYI, they will be on the same stage, for three debates, as usual.

Thanks for the diagnosis Dr. Obvious but I'm assuming those will be the normal moderated affairs complete with superficial topics and a lack of follow-up.

[mystery]

McCain camp is hitting back (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/21/mccain_spokesmans_retort_obama.html#more), now."The reality is they have some investment properties and stuff. It's not as if he lives in ten houses. That's just not the case," Rogers said. "The reality is they have four that actually could be considered houses they could use."

Those four include an apartment in Arlington, a ranch in Sedona, and two condos, in California and Phoenix, he said. The others include "some investment properties and things like that."

He also added: "This is a guy who lived in one house for five and a half years -- in prison," referring to the prisoner of war camp that McCain was in during the Vietnam War.

Rogers called the house story "by far the most personal attack" of the campaign, and said "it comes from a candidate who said he was against this kind of thing."

He predicted that the story would not "stick" with the American people.

"In terms of who's an elitist, I think people have made a judgment that John McCain is not an arugula-eating, pointy headed professor-type based on his life story."

OMG WAIT WAS JOHN MCCAIN IN A WAR?!?!?

[salwon]

"The reality is they have four that actually could be considered houses they could use."

See, just like you and me!

[noun]

OMG WAIT WAS JOHN MCCAIN IN A WAR?!?!?

It's this year's September 11th meme, honestly. It's their answer/excuse for every stupid thing he's ever done or said. And if you call them on it you're the asshole for somehow demeaning his service or his years of torture. I'm impressed Obama lasted as long as he has, actually.

[Quaro]

Ahh, iceberg lettuce. The true test of core American values.

[jeffd]

Thanks for the diagnosis Dr. Obvious but I'm assuming those will be the normal moderated affairs complete with superficial topics and a lack of follow-up.

Townhalls have less followup than debates smart guy.

[WarrenM]

When did eating arugala become a problem? FFS.

[BlueJackalope]

Townhalls have less followup than debates smart guy.

Fine. I withdraw the suggestion that the two of them might be able to have a substantive conversation like two human beings, but instead need to have George Stephanopolis and Drew Carey throwing out inane topics and improv beats.

[Podunk]

"In terms of who's an elitist, I think people have made a judgment that John McCain is not an arugula-eating, pointy headed professor-type based on his life story."

Boy, they really get shrill when they are put on the defensive, don't they?

[Quaro]

They work the word arugula into almost everything they say lately. Here's another:

Americans don't like this class warfare stuff," the official said. They aspire to be rich, the official said. They don't aspire to eat arugula or hang out with celebrities.

[Sepiche]

When did eating arugala become a problem? FFS.
Apparently Big Arugala hasn't been spending enough on lobbyists.

[Quaro]

The response ads coming up are even nastier:

Why would Barack Obama be friends with someone who bombed the Capitol...and is proud of it?

Do you know enough to elect Barack Obama?

[Adam B]

Jesus. Is the McCain camp so tied to their bullet points that they just adapt them to whatever the topic at hand is?

POW ELITIST 'MERICAN VALUES HURR

[jeffd]

Blue: I agree with the goal of getting them to have a substantive conversation. Weekly townhalls will not achieve that goal. Frankly I have no idea what will, other than perhaps debates with some interaction and non-shitty moderators.

In other news, it sounds like the McCain campaign is preparing to go nuclear. They're preparing an ad about Obama's ties to Tony Rezko, and preparing to go after him over Reverand Wright. Hilariously they say that Obama's the one who's opened the door to this crap.

[BlueJackalope]

They work the word arugula into almost everything they say lately. Here's another:

I predict Obama will get at least one arugula related question at the first moderated debate that Jeff is so in love with he wants to marry.

EDIT

Blue: I agree with the goal of getting them to have a substantive conversation. Weekly townhalls will not achieve that goal. Frankly I have no idea what will, other than perhaps debates with some interaction and non-shitty moderators.

I agree, Town Hall meetings are terrible. I'd like to hear the candidates actually engage each other rather than use the question asker like the only child in bitter divorce. I also think the standard debate where Jim Leher asks the questions and gives each candidate some time and rebuttal time, is of limited use.

[z0diac]

And if you call them on it you're the asshole for somehow demeaning his service or his years of torture.

But if you were to apply the modern neocon definition, it wouldn't be called torture anymore.

[noun]

See, it's only torture if it was done to a white man. It's not the same when you do it to those brown people. Hell, they're not even human!

[z0diac]

I predict Obama will get at least one arugula related question at the first moderated debate that Jeff is so in love with he wants to marry.

Such a stupid meme. Like I'm sure the McCain family subsists on chili, pork rinds, and grape drink. Someone should ask McCain how many personal chefs he has.

[J. Matthew Zoss]

Jesus. Is the McCain camp so tied to their bullet points that they just adapt them to whatever the topic at hand is?

POW ELITIST 'MERICAN VALUES HURROf course. They can't compete on actual issues.

[BlueJackalope]

Of course. They can't compete on actual issues.

Which explains why McCain has to go super negative, and why its dangerous for Obama to engage him on that front.

Obama never really had to go negative on Hillary even when she was going negative on him. For one thing because, as Jason will point out, the media and a good portion of the electorate was happy to point out her faults, lies and exaggerations at the drop of a hat. McCain has a better relationship with the media and comes across as a decent person so Obama may have to do his own heavy lifting.

[Gabe Lewis]

In response to new McCain-Ayers ad:

Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor responds: The fact that John McCain dispatched his paid consultant to launch this despicable ad from a so-called ‘independent’ committee shows how desperate he is to change the subject from his shocking disconnect with the economic struggles of the American people. He knows that Barack Obama has denounced the detestable crimes that Bill Ayers committed forty years ago.


Instead of invoking Paris, Britney and obscure sixties radicals, Senator McCain should take the day off at one of his seven homes to consider whether his support for outsourcing, tax breaks for companies who ship jobs overseas and continued spending of ten billion a month in Iraq is really putting ‘country first.’ To us, it sounds like just more of the same.


Nice come-back I guess. This is starting to sound like a school-yard argument.

Also, how fast are the ad people jeez.

[Quaro]

Oh, the Obama-wants-to-blow-up-the-capitol ad was already out and it's funded by a third party, not an official McCain ad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m89m0pC_bpY

[Dirt]

I'm not sure Obama appreciates the economic troubles of current Americans.

[cesare]

Haven't seen this yet, but it looks like it may go viral:

CNN on John McCain dumping his disabled first wife. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIX-XHlZFw)

Not released by the Obama campaign, but clearly by an Obama supporter. I think both campaigns just pressed the Big Red Button(tm). (O_O)

[Reldan]

Hell, I'd be rich with $150K cash in hand.

No... you really wouldn't.

[JeffL]

At WORST it's another example that he's becoming too senile to keep track of details most of the rest of us would have no trouble handling. Who the fuck can't remember how many houses they own?

Does anyone believe either of these candidates are just like you and me? That either one of them wakes up in the middle of the night in a sweat like I did last night worrying about where I'm gonna get the money for my daughters' next semester of college, and what in the hell we would do if I lose my job due to the company having such economic problems due to the current economy? Neither one of these guys is even a little bit like any of us.

I worked with a guy when I was in Chicago a year ago who invested in houses in the Gary Indiana area, mainly picking them up in tax default sales. He and his father in law had this as a side business. When I asked him how to get into it, what the risks were, etc. I asked him how many of these homes he currently owned. He had to call his father in law and have him take a look at their current records to give me the exact number. I doubt McCain does much more than give his financial guy the greenlight when he tells him, hey John, we've got a nice opportunity on an apartment building in Vermont.

And as a result this is now the big issue in the papers and on the news channels. Not health care and how the candidates propose to handle it, not a debate on what each of them propose to fix the fundamental problems in the economy and the housing market, but McCain and how many houses does he have.

[BlueJackalope]

I'm not sure Obama appreciates the economic troubles of current Americans.

bippitty boppity boo

12345

[Quaro]

It's not going to get any better. Obama went to the gym rather than visit wounded troops. Arugula. Is a celebrity, like Britney Spears, not like you and me. Arugula. Hangs out with terrorists.

Obama had a few general ads about health care and alternative energy or whatever and nobody even mentioned them. This ad was basically, 'You say I'm out of touch? You're the one with 7 houses."

There's also interview with Cindy where she talks about buying their second beach house, because the first one was too crowded. Just the kind of thing they'd normally throw at Obama.

[WarrenM]

Oh, the Obama-wants-to-blow-up-the-capitol ad was already out and it's funded by a third party, not an official McCain ad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m89m0pC_bpY
Wow. It really is like they're talking to children and, obviously, for the vast majority of voters that's true.

[Jason McCullough]

Which is fine. David Brooks might or might not be right. It doesn't really matter though because that's ALL we're getting out of McCain these days: kooky comments and personal attacks on Obama. I am actually saying, FWIW, that Obama can't pull off the more personal aspects of these attacks and it's a mistake for him to try. So your attempt to frame me as nothing but an Obama-whore fails: my thesis is that he's making a mistake. My corollary is that at least it shows a bit of character.

My point was that like Brooks, you're unable to accept the blatantly obvious fact that your guy is quite consciously doing things you don't like and which conflict with the identity you're projecting on him.

But again, you're assumption is incorrect: I don't like the ad because of the way it is put together - he invested a lot in real estate, so he is unfit for the White House.

McCain didn't "invest" in real estate; that you call it that is exactly what I'm talking about on your world view. He married an obscenely rich wife and proceeded to spend her money.

[JeffL]

McCain didn't "invest" in real estate; that you call it that is exactly what I'm talking about on your world view. He married an obscenely rich wife and proceeded to spend her money.

I believe it says more about your world view, Jason. Do you think he bought all those apartments, condos, etc. to lay empty and live in when he came to town? Almost all of them are precisely that, investments. Do you also resent Kerry because he married an obscenely rich woman, and refuse to call any of his investments "investments?" If this was Gore investing his millions he's made off of global warming speeches, movies, etc. in real estate you'd have no problem with it.

[jeffd]

And as a result this is now the big issue in the papers and on the news channels. Not health care and how the candidates propose to handle it, not a debate on what each of them propose to fix the fundamental problems in the economy and the housing market, but McCain and how many houses does he have.

McCain opened this can of worms. Sure sucks for him.

[Reldan]

I believe it says more about your world view, Jason. Do you think he bought all those apartments, condos, etc. to lay empty and live in when he came to town? Almost all of them are precisely that, investments. Do you also resent Kerry because he married an obscenely rich woman, and refuse to call any of his investments "investments?" If this was Gore investing his millions he's made off of global warming speeches, movies, etc. in real estate you'd have no problem with it.

So... are these houses they own because they're trying to make a profit, or houses they own to live in as desired simply because they can afford it.

If it's the first then yeah, I might give it a pass. The second though... that's a different matter.

[StGabe]

My point was that like Brooks, you're unable to accept the blatantly obvious fact that your guy is quite consciously doing things you don't like and which conflict with the identity you're projecting on him.

What part of "mistake" was unclear? You act like you're trying to corner me into admitting that Obama isn't perfect. Well guess what, I never claimed he was. Unlike you, it seems, I don't require political candidates to be "absolute". While he may make occasional mistakes or do some things I don't like I'm still supporting him because he's doing a far better job than McCain (or Clinton). Also, as I've been talking about in the other thread, this is at least a segue into a real issue and not just an attack for the sake of an attack. In future speeches I just hope that Obama cuts to the real issue more quickly and skips over the stupid "house" thing. I do think it's valid to crucify McCain's on his own stupid comments ... I just think that house ownership is a bit too ad hominem.

If a candidate I like is going to launch an attack I think is a mistake I'm going to at least be glad if it turns out that they just can't put their heart into it (though it may make it a greater mistake strategically). If Obama were able to pull this off with the same sincerity and conviction that he puts into his other speeches, it would give more credence to the notion that he's just a good speaker and that his ideals are for show.

[Woolen Horde]

Someone ought to tell grandpa that he just needs to have a sense of humor. You know, like what he said about that book libeling Obama.

[Sebmojo]

Maybe he doesn't remember because it's his wife's money.

Hrm. More proof Obama is more concerned about things that will make him President then really representing the people.

Obama has a "when I become President, I'm going to" plan hidden away somewhere in his brain. If he becomes President, I expect that he'll be doing a lot of major things that nobody would expect from how he's presented himself. It remains to be seen if it's good or bad.

That 'hrm' is a classic of concern trolly goodness.

[NoWayJose]

So... are these houses they own because they're trying to make a profit, or houses they own to live in as desired simply because they can afford it.

If it's the first then yeah, I might give it a pass. The second though... that's a different matter.
Yeah, it's different. But is it somehow "worse?" Should he sell off all his (wife's) houses to make you feel better?

[Gabe Lewis]

His wife's houses?

Oh I forgot being married doesn't entail any kind of shared ownership of property... my bad.

[NowhereDan]

I just want to know how a guy with such a loose grasp on his own personal finances can be trusted with the entire country's finances.

[bago]

How many houses do you own?
How many wars are we in?
how many fingers am I holding up?

[magnet]

So... are these houses they own because they're trying to make a profit, or houses they own to live in as desired simply because they can afford it.

If it's the first then yeah, I might give it a pass. The second though... that's a different matter.

Does this answer your question?

It is a late Sunday afternoon in April, and I am sitting in a condominium in Coronado, California, taking in the view of the gorgeous San Diego Bay with Cindy McCain. She closed on the place just two weeks earlier, and the only things unpacked so far are the family photos that dot almost every surface. It's her family's second condo in the building. "I like the ocean, and the kids love it here, and I love that," she tells me, curled up on a nondescript couch that looks like it might have come with the apartment. "When I bought the first one, my husband, who is not a beach person, said, 'Oh, this is such a waste of money; the kids will never go.' Then it got to the point where they used it so much I couldn't get in the place. So I bought another one."

Here's another hint: Investment properties usually collect rent...

[jeffd]

So our heroic former POW (who doesn't like to talk about it) would-be President's response to the whole housing thing is to apparently to hide behind his wife's skirt. (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/mccain_prepares_rezko_ad_wrigh.php)
Though McCain is widely perceived to to drawn first blood by attacking Obama's character, the official said that the difference between Obama's mocking McCain for his wealth and his shaky answer on the number of homes he owns was that McCain's charge "reflects an existential reality," where Obama's charges "attack Cindy. She owns the homes. I thought he said the wives were off-limits."

See, you can't blame John McCain for not knowing how many houses he owns, they belong to his (mega rich) wife. It's not his fault he cheated on and then left his first wife for a megarich heiress twenty years younger than he is! John McCain is a man of the people!

Are there actually folks out there who fall for this kind of garbage?

[NoWayJose]

I just want to know how a guy with such a loose grasp on his own personal finances can be trusted with the entire country's finances.
Is that what the president does?

[Jason McCullough]

I believe it says more about your world view, Jason. Do you think he bought all those apartments, condos, etc. to lay empty and live in when he came to town? Almost all of them are precisely that, investments.

My point was he's not even remotely an "investor"; he's freeloading off his rich wife. For the record, near as I can tell they're only renting out one of them.

[JeffL]

McCain opened this can of worms. Sure sucks for him.

McCain opened this stupid house thing? The McCain's own 8 properties, all of them are owned by Cindy McCain, her dependent children and the trusts and companies they control. He didn't know the exact number of properties owned by that combination. But it's made out to be like he went out and bought a few houses to live in and then forgot how many he bought.

If this is the big issue, this is going to be a piss poor campaign.

[JeffL]

My point was he's not even remotely an "investor"; he's freeloading off his rich wife. For the record, near as I can tell they're only renting out one of them.

Again, the properties are owned by Cindy, their dependents, and trusts and companies they control.

Where was your outrage over Kerry freeloading off his uber-rich wife?

[jeffd]

If this is the big issue, this is going to be a piss poor campaign.

Again, blame McCain. Over the past month they've consistently, at every opportunity, chosen the low road. Nothing but personal attacks, dog-whistle race baiting, and outright lies. What do you want Obama to do, emulate Kerry and just let this stuff slide?

[JeffL]

Again, blame McCain. Over the past month they've consistently, at every opportunity, chosen the low road. Nothing but personal attacks, dog-whistle race baiting, and outright lies. What do you want Obama to do, emulate Kerry and just let this stuff slide?

Just curious, what are the low personal attacks that McCain has taken recently that are outside the norm of a standard campaign? The Brittany ad? Sheesh, that was just stupid, but I'm not sure that saying that Obama is all about being a celebrity as opposed to a substantial candidate is sleazy. Now - the ads about to come out that link him to Rezko (sp) --- THAT is sleazy and over the line, IMO, as Obama was investigated by the Chicago papers via every angle possible, and concluded that there was nothing improper other than avoiding something that could give a perception, and the McCain campaign knows that. My hope that the response from Obama will not be something like "oh yeah, well McCain has a couple of REALLY expensive cars and a private plane!!!!"

[Lorini]

Reminds me of a project at JPL that was called Mars Observer (which eventually failed btw). They had printed T-Shirts that said "MO, only a $275 million dollar project!". Which really is not much, considering JPL has had at least one project that cost nearly 3 billion, but the $275 million number was seen as pretty negative, and soon you could buy those T-Shirts for $5.

I think it's pretty clear that stupid people are the ones who are making the difference in the latest presidential elections, otherwise we would not have Bush today. So if you want to win, you have to appeal to stupid people. Only a stupid person would actually think that the fact that McCain can't remember how many houses his wife has is important, but I bet the ads will have a positive effect for Obama.

[bago]

Don't forget the ayers ad from the 527 today.

[Roy Ziegler]

Is that what the president does?

If you don't know how many houses you own then you should not have one of the highest positions that influence the country's economy. You shouldn't be anyfuckingwhere near it.

[jeffd]

Just curious, what are the low personal attacks that McCain has taken recently that are outside the norm of a standard campaign? The Brittany ad? Sheesh, that was just stupid, but I'm not sure that saying that Obama is all about being a celebrity as opposed to a substantial candidate is sleazy. Now - the ads about to come out that link him to Rezko (sp) --- THAT is sleazy and over the line, IMO, as Obama was investigated by the Chicago papers via every angle possible, and concluded that there was nothing improper other than avoiding something that could give a perception, and the McCain campaign knows that. My hope that the response from Obama will not be something like "oh yeah, well McCain has a couple of REALLY expensive cars and a private plane!!!!"

When I asked "What do you want Obama to do, emulate Kerry and just let this stuff slide?" you could have just saved some keystrokes and typed "Yes."

[Jakub]

I honestly don't see the big deal about this.

[Jason McMaster]

I honestly don't see the big deal about this.

Righteous indignation, duh!

[jeffd]

I honestly don't see the big deal about this.

Honestly? As an issue it's a minor one. It's more the implications for the campaign. Specifically:

1) It's the first hard shot Obama's landed on McCain, after a month of taking body blows.
2) It indicates that the Obama campaign has finally decided to start trying to define McCain (as an out of touch rich guy).

[Jakub]

This is a hard shot?

I guess I'm missing perspective on this. Seems rather blatantly populist to me.

[NoWayJose]

If you don't know how many houses you own then you should not have one of the highest positions that influence the country's economy. You shouldn't be anyfuckingwhere near it.
Why not? You say that like it makes sense on the face of it, but of course it doesn't. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, except when conflated by partisans. One could say the same thing about "knowing who your preacher is," or "knowing whether the guy you're investing with is a convicted felon," and it would have the same relevance, which is zero.

[AndrewM]

This (http://tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=0fd7470d-a41f-4d9e-9328-fd079b476a0a) is a fairly interesting article at The New Republic about McCain's current wife and her relationship to his rise to political power.

[AndrewM]

I guess I'm missing perspective on this. Seems rather blatantly populist to me.

Sure is. Obama is a "pointy headed college professor" who likes arugula, McCain is so rich he doesn't even know how many houses he owns. This is shaping up to be a quality election season.

[Jason McCullough]

Again, the properties are owned by Cindy, their dependents, and trusts and companies they control.

Maybe complaining about "investor" isn't the right angle; "worthless inheritance bastards" is probably better. The part I think is hilarious, and what makes it so fun that Obama is kicking him in the teeth on this, is that neither McCain or his wife worked for a bit of it. They're effectively living off (and buying a bunch of houses) with his wife's inherited money.

Contrast this with Perot, for example - filthy rich and no one really ran ads about it, because hey, he worked for it, what's wrong with that?

Where was your outrage over Kerry freeloading off his uber-rich wife?

Well, Kerry didn't run a campaign on how he was the real american in the race and his opponent was an out-of-touch foreigner-loving elitist celebrity.

[Andrew Mayer]

This is a hard shot?

I guess I'm missing perspective on this. Seems rather blatantly populist to me.

The goal at this point is to define the other persons character and drive that message home through the fall.

We'll get some issues in the campaign, but unless you can change what people report, this is going to be things were- er, I mean are.

Also, check out how quickly this thread hit three pages vs. the average "issue" topic.

[NoWayJose]

The bottom line is Obama is never going to successfully paint McCain as an uncaring rich guy because he was stuck in a POW camp in North Vietnam for five and a half years and that trumps any made-up character issue like this silliness Obama's new friends from the DNC are dragging around.

I suspect Obama knows this and will stick to the issues and hope he reaches enough smart people.

[Sebmojo]

The bottom line is Obama is never going to successfully paint McCain as an uncaring rich guy because he was stuck in a POW camp in North Vietnam for five and a half years and that trumps any made-up character issue like this silliness Obama's new friends from the DNC are dragging around.

I suspect Obama knows this and will stick to the issues and hope he reaches enough smart people.

Yeeeeeep. That will work.

Of course it's stupid, of course it's trivial. So?

[NoWayJose]

Yeeeeeep. That will work.

Of course it's stupid, of course it's trivial. So?
SO it won't work, either, and doesn't exactly burnish Obama's carefully crafted image as a new kind of politician. Why even bother with this shit? Will McCain selling some houses make it easier to fill my tank? No? Okay, what will? How about Iraq? How many houses will McCain have to burn down to get some soldiers back from Iraq? Zero? Okay, what do we do?

I loved Obama's ads during the Olympics, all about bullshit ideals like American know-how and all that nonsense. That's some bullshit I can get behind. Labeling McCain as some out of touch rich dude is Bush league.

[Andrew Mayer]

The bottom line is Obama is never going to successfully paint McCain as an uncaring rich guy because he was stuck in a POW camp in North Vietnam for five and a half years and that trumps any made-up character issue like this silliness Obama's new friends from the DNC are dragging around.

Two problems. First, McCain's "A Noun, a verb, POW" only works in a vague way, and it's not a card he can keep playing. Every time he uses it he weakens it, especially given the "he doesn't like to talk about it" line they've been peddling for the last two months.

And secondly it doesn't really inoculate him against any current character attacks. You can't whine "don't hurt the POW" every time.

The goal here is to corner your opponent, and then deliver a knockout blow. It should be easy with McCain's tendency to stray off message, and his temper, but I'm not yet sure that Obama has the stomach for it. But tempering the candidate for the job is part of what the campaign is about, and from the moment he takes the oath of office the Republicans will be up to their usual games.

[Roy Ziegler]

Why not? You say that like it makes sense on the face of it, but of course it doesn't. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, except when conflated by partisans. One could say the same thing about "knowing who your preacher is," or "knowing whether the guy you're investing with is a convicted felon," and it would have the same relevance, which is zero.

You're saying a man who's ignorant of his own personal finances (something as simple as how many mansions he owns) should be influencing the country's? How is it not related? It's like asking someone who can't handle a cash register to run a bank. Or someone who can't handle a small garden in his backyard to be in charge of maintaining and caring for the White House's flora. Regardless of the fact he (self admittedly, and rather obviously) knows little about the country's economy to begin with.

This isn't some hidden card or unknown factor; its the number of houses he owns.

[cesare]

I suspect Obama knows this and will stick to the issues and hope he reaches enough smart people.

It's not possible win an election in America by appealing to the smart people. Period. Full stop.

Because I know Qt3 is fond of the game references: it's like trying to win an election based on the intellectual faction in Tropico. You're talking about like 20% of the population. Your best bet is banking on the capitalist/communist divide, or finding which factions the religious and militaristic types overlap with.

Obama won't win in November, but in the past week he's made it clear he's going to go down swinging. If you're going to lose anyway, this is the way to do it.

[Roy Ziegler]

It's not possible win an election in America by appealing to the smart people. Period. Full stop.

Because I know Qt3 is fond of the game references: it's like trying to win an election based on the intellectual faction in Tropico. You're talking about like 20% of the population. Your best bet is banking on the capitalist/communist divide, or finding which factions the religious and militaristic types overlap with.

Obama won't win in November, but in the past week he's made it clear he's going to go down swinging. If you're going to lose anyway, this is the way to do it.

Ah, so there's stupid people and then there's smart people, and each side only votes for one candidate. Good to know, good to know.

I'm glad this election is so simple and black and white.

...

You do realize the polls are pretty much neck and neck and the race hasn't even started yet, right...?

[NoWayJose]

You're saying a man who's ignorant of his own personal finances (something as simple as how many mansions he owns) should be influencing the country's? How is it not related? It's like asking someone who can't handle a cash register to run a bank. Or someone who can't handle a small garden in his backyard to be in charge of maintaining and caring for the White House's flora. Regardless of the fact he (self admittedly, and rather obviously) knows little about the country's economy to begin with.

This isn't some hidden card or unknown factor; its the number of houses he owns.
I'm not sure I understand. Can you provide some analogies to help illustrate your point?

[Anders Hallin]

Is that what the president does?
Well, he can veto spending bills, and if he's economically savvy, he might actually do that in a rational way, instead of just vetoing things that seems to give those uppity poor people a decent shot.

[bago]

Or just make signing statements, and then to prove your true power, shoot a man in the face and get him to apologize for getting in the way of the shotgun.

[mystery]

Just to add fuel to the fire, the nonpartisan Sunlight Foundation did a study (http://fortune535.sunlightprojects.org/) this year on the average net worth of the 535 members of congress. Of them, they turned up the following numbers:
John McCain's Average Net Worth: 36 Million
Barack Obama's Average Net Worth: 799,000


But I guess it's OK, because even though McCain is worth (on average) 36 Million, he's not rich and he's just like regular folks.

Hell, my net average worth is near Obama's, and I don't even try that hard.

[Brian Rucker]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/8a830b268131dd3027_ufm6bnfiz.jpg

Senator John McCain has spent the week trying to tell people that he feels their economic pain. So it was more than a little unhelpful when one of his top economic advisers was quoted Thursday as saying that the United States was only in a “mental recession” and that it had become a “nation of whiners.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us/politics/11campaign.html

Mr. McCain has joked on previous occasions about his lack of economic expertise. And in a debate earlier this month, he said that he would stimulate the economy by cutting government spending, a move that economists say would have the opposite effect.

“The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should,” he said last month, according to The Boston Globe. “I’ve got Greenspan’s book.”
Mr. McCain now favors the extension of the Bush income tax cuts, saying that letting them lapse would amount to a tax increase that would damage the economy. He said the Democrats’ plans to allow the expiration of the Bush tax cuts for households making at least $250,000 would simply redistribute wealth and lead to an endless fight over who was truly affluent.

“Americans don’t dislike wealthy people; they want to be wealthy people,” he added.

On several occasions over the last year, Mr. McCain has said that tax cuts can reduce the deficit by spurring additional activity that, in turn, leads to more taxes being paid. But numerous studies have found that not to be the case.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/26/us/politics/26mccain.html?pagewanted=all

It's a meme now.

[Chris Nahr]

Clearly all this proves that McCain is an honest down-to-earth guy who has lived the American Dream, got rich as God intended, and still eats proper American salad! Whereas Obama is a satanic communist intellectual who eats foreign food, visits foreign countries, and apparently doesn't even want to be filthy rich.

[jerri blank]

Heh.

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6295/getoutofgaffefreesmhn9.jpg

EDIT to give credit where it's due - this diarist on Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/21/16410/0565/504/572077).

[BlueJackalope]

Obama won't win in November, but in the past week he's made it clear he's going to go down swinging. If you're going to lose anyway, this is the way to do it.

Chances are, he's not going to lose. Assuming this electoral map is accurate, Obama would only need to hold the Safely Democratic and the Leaning Democratic States and then pick up one or two of the toss up states.

McCain needs to keep all the Safely Republican and Leaning Republican and ALL of the Toss up states.

Safely Democratic 195
Leaning Democratic - 69
Toss Up - 80
Leaning Republican - 113
Safely Republican - 78

Whoops - LinK http://www.slate.com/id/2195956

[JeffL]

Just to add fuel to the fire, the nonpartisan Sunlight Foundation did a study (http://fortune535.sunlightprojects.org/) this year on the average net worth of the 535 members of congress. Of them, they turned up the following numbers:
John McCain's Average Net Worth: 36 Million
Barack Obama's Average Net Worth: 799,000
But I guess it's OK, because even though McCain is worth (on average) 36 Million, he's not rich and he's just like regular folks.

Hell, my net average worth is near Obama's, and I don't even try that hard.

Not sure what these numbers represent: Obama made about a million in 2006, and $4.2 million in 2007.

So yeah, he's rich, and McCain is REALLY rich, though there are people in Congress richer than him, and of course both are lower class to the REALLY rich people in the US. ;)

[Wallapuctus]

I'm glad this election is so simple and black and white.

...

You do realize the polls are pretty much neck and neck and the race hasn't even started yet, right...?


Actually, in the end I think that's exactly what it will come down to, black and white. I think a lot of whites being polled saying they'll vote Obama will actually stay home or vote McCain because they're secretly racist. But maybe I'm cynical because I live in Boston, which is full of secret racists.

[JeffL]

When I asked "What do you want Obama to do, emulate Kerry and just let this stuff slide?" you could have just saved some keystrokes and typed "Yes."

I guess I'll have to say what I've said several times before in this thread and use different words since you're not getting what I'm saying:

A rich guy who is raking in millions of bucks, wears Italian custom suits, and takes his family to Hawaii on a private jet to lounge for a week on a private beach in Hawaii trying to paint the other guy as too rich to be president isn't the most effective tact, IMO. Even if he's going for the slimy innuendo that McCain is truly senile. The argument isn't that Obama is trying to use attack ads, it's just that an ad on how many real estate properties the McCains have isn't the most effective tact.

But yeah, I can see that this year's presidential campaign is going to be the same drivel as past ones. Which is probably to be expected, but disappointing.

[Andrew Mayer]

One thing that isn't being discussed here is that Obama has spent the summer getting a 50 state ground game in place, and while he may not have "won" Saddleback last week, he threw out a roadblock in the usual GOP evangelical GOTV machine.

[BlueJackalope]

One thing that isn't being discussed here is that Obama has spent the summer getting a 50 state ground game in place, and while he may not have "won" Saddleback last week, he threw out a roadblock in the usual GOP evangelical GOTV machine.

Look at the the difference in the Safely Democratic vs Leaning Democratic and the Safely Republican vs Safely Republican states from my post above.

I think those numbers are a reflection of the political climate for the Republicans. Obama can focus his efforts in Republican states and McCain presumably has to work just to hold on to formally "safe" states.

[Marged]

This house thing was a total gift to the Obama campaign - and McCain totally gave him an entree ever since he began dinging Obama as elitist and out of touch. I think it was John Dickerson who said that people who can't remember how many houses they own could fit in a single golf cart. The problem is not his wealth, but his cluelessness.

while he may not have "won" Saddleback last week, he threw out a roadblock in the usual GOP evangelical GOTV machine.

I think that's very true. Obama doesn't need to win the evangelicals over, he just needs to convince him that he's not the antichrist (and I do believe the author of the Left Behind books has come out as saying that he is not, in fact - thanks for the clarification!) If he's not so scary, evangelicals who can't muster enthusiasm for McCain won't feel obligated to campaign or vote for McCain the way they did for Bush.

[Podunk]

A rich guy who is raking in millions of bucks, wears Italian custom suits, and takes his family to Hawaii on a private jet to lounge for a week on a private beach in Hawaii trying to paint the other guy as too rich to be president isn't the most effective tact, IMO.

It's nit-picky, but the "private beach" bit is false, courtesy of the McCain campaign.

[JeffL]

It's nit-picky, but the "private beach" bit is false, courtesy of the McCain campaign.

Really? Thanks - I actually heard that on CNN, didn't look any further.

[Angie Gallant]

Yeah, beaches on Hawaii are open to the public by law. The only exception is the strip that the Navy owns, and that's not where Obama was.

[cesare]

Ah, so there's stupid people and then there's smart people, and each side only votes for one candidate. Good to know, good to know.

..and there's people with reading comprehension skills and there's people without them.

No. I said that "smart people" represent a much smaller segment of the population than people on internet forums seem to realize, and that thinking you can win an election by appealing to 20% of the population is a losing strategy. There are plenty of smart Republicans, and the Republican Party is smart enough not to base their strategy on appealing to that one small faction and hoping for the best.


You do realize the polls are pretty much neck and neck and the race hasn't even started yet, right...?Right, and when November comes, the people who are so oblivious to politics that they still don't know who they want to vote for are going to say, "Obama who?", and vote for McCain. Amongst news junkies, poll readers, and political enthusiasts the race is neck and neck. When you throw in everyone else come October or November, the people are going to go with the guy they've heard of, not the scary guy they've heard nasty rumors about.

Even the Obama camp realizes this, which is why they're putting most of their money into strengthening the base that should be voting Democratic no matter what. They're not spending a lot of time wooing the fence-sitters, because the fence-sitters are going to get nervous and go for McCain. It's their best bet, and it's a smart move, but imho in the end it's not going to be enough.

[AndrewM]

Obama isn't rich by McCain's standards!

Also as has been pointed out, going to the beach for a week in Hawaii does not sounds like some kind of crazy thing only imaginable for extremely rich people. He wasn't in the parasnorkelling in the Caymans or anything.

[StGabe]

It's nit-picky, but the "private beach" bit is false, courtesy of the McCain campaign.

Who cares if it's true, as long as it furthers the One True Narrative. Fuck this goddamn narrative bullshit. When are we finally going to handle candidates accountable if they regularly make false statements just because they know that no one will bother calling them on it? (or if they do, a little bit of "are you calling this POW a liar?" or "don't you support the troops?" will suffice)

[cesare]

Chances are, he's not going to lose. Assuming this electoral map is accurate, Obama would only need to hold the Safely Democratic and the Leaning Democratic States and then pick up one or two of the toss up states.

McCain needs to keep all the Safely Republican and Leaning Republican and ALL of the Toss up states.

Safely Democratic 195
Leaning Democratic - 69
Toss Up - 80
Leaning Republican - 113
Safely Republican - 78

Whoops - LinK http://www.slate.com/id/2195956

This is the current projection at 538 (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ov-pT1x-W8Y/SK40cCWekZI/AAAAAAAACPc/SOC6tLvx1n0/S1600-R/0821x_bigmap.PNG

It also comes amid a continuing downward trend for Obama and a continuing upward trend for McCain.

And like I said above, I think the fact that Obama's even neck and neck at all comes from the fact that at this point in the election cycle it's political junkies who are paying attention and are excited about his candidacy. LOTS of things could happen between now and November to really shake things up, but projecting from this point, I think as more and more people start paying attention they're going to come into this still not sure if they want to vote for a guy they've never heard of before this year. The undecideds are going to break for McCain imo.

Maybe Obama's much-vaunted ground game will really come into play, but I think if you're an Obama supporter, you should expect the poll numbers to slowly ebb downwards as more voters start paying attention.

[delirium]

The undecideds are going to break for McCain imo.

Maybe Obama's much-vaunted ground game will really come into play, but I think if you're an Obama supporter, you should expect the poll numbers to slowly ebb downwards as more voters start paying attention.

On what grounds are you making these claims? You're going to have to do better than just that "nobody has heard of Obama before this year".

[Andrew Mayer]

I'm guessing we'll see the opposite start to happen actually.

It's an anti-Republican election, and as long as they can paint McCain as a Bush Republican them his numbers are going to go down.

I also think that the things moving to "neck and neck" for a few weeks will be good for Obama in the long run (as long he can get his numbers moving up again). The longer he sustained his front-runner status the more he became a target for the media. The fact that he dipped a bit means that they get a more exciting narrative, and as you can see this week, makes them more willing to report on McCain's gaffes.

[BlueJackalope]

I think the polls could also go the other way. Clinton was fairly unknown in 1992 and got a big bounce after the convention. He never lost the lead after that. The republican candidate faces bigger challenges than Bush I did. There is a long ways to go and Obama has a lot of money.

I think a lot of people are overestimating the power of The Racisms to determine the race. As racist as Wallapuctus and his buddies are, MA is still going to vote Democratic.

[J. Matthew Zoss]

I thought this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhuMgUkiVOY) was pretty effective. Not an official campaign ad, but well done in my mind.

[Wallapuctus]

I think a lot of people are overestimating the power of The Racisms to determine the race. As racist as Wallapuctus and his buddies are, MA is still going to vote Democratic.

It's true. There's enough intellectualism here to overpower the Joes from Quincy who are still reeling from Deval Patrick getting elected.

I'm more thinking the traditional "red" states though. I'm worried that their fear of Obama being black/muslim/the AntiChrist will override rational thought.

I mean, fuck, the very fact that Obama could be the Antichrist was bought up gives me this knot of despair in the pit of my stomach. Those people vote! And there's a LOT of them!

/cry

[malphigian]

I mean, fuck, the very fact that Obama could be the Antichrist was bought up gives me this knot of despair in the pit of my stomach. Those people vote! And there's a LOT of them!

My wife has a (possibly former) friend who has gone very evangelical. She's confusingly still mostly a liberal, YET she believes the Obama is the antichrist thing.

I swear she repeated that garbage about Obama meeting the criteria for the antichrist described in the bible. If she had said this in front of me, I can't really tell you what would have happened.

Revelations says exactly nothing about the race, religion, age or whatever about the antichrist. Nor does any other book in the bible. The best way to convince the morons they are wrong would be to get them to actually read the only book they ever talk about. But that's probably too much to ask.

[madkevin]

I would love to see somebody ask McCain that at one of the debates: "Senator McCain, do you feel your opponent is the literal Antichrist as described in the Bible and, if so, how to you plan on defeating the spawn of all that is unholy?"

[Quaro]

A rich guy who is raking in millions of bucks, wears Italian custom suits, and takes his family to Hawaii on a private jet to lounge for a week on a private beach in Hawaii trying to paint the other guy as too rich to be president isn't the most effective tact, IMO.

Well not in a vacuum. But as a response to a McCain campaign focused on the narrative that Obama is out-of-touch, McCain is Joe Average American?

[BlueJackalope]

I'm more thinking the traditional "red" states though. I'm worried that their fear of Obama being black/muslim/the AntiChrist will override rational thought.

I mean, fuck, the very fact that Obama could be the Antichrist was bought up gives me this knot of despair in the pit of my stomach. Those people vote! And there's a LOT of them!

/cry

I don't think those Red states would vote for a democrat anyway, much less a black guy. A racist in Ohio has more power than a racist in North Carolina this cycle.

As to the Anti-Christ matter, Here's how I'd handle it (any Obama operatives on this thread feel free to use this strategy).

Commerical start:

Images of Storm Clouds, lightning,and dark ominous stuff, superimpose Obama's face over top. Droney scary music...scary voiced narrator -

"Some say Barack Hussein Obama is the Anti-Christ...maybe...but doesn't the emergence of the Anti-Christ signal the Return of Jesus Christ Himself?" <note - insert some biblical jibber jabber here to back up this point >
"Every vote for Obama brings the Revelation one day closer, Every vote against him is a vote against the Baby Jesus. Don't you want Jesus to come back? Obama in 08'"

Then the candidate appears - "I'm Barack Obama, the Anti Christ, and I endorse this message" - and flash the crue horns while flicking his tongue at the camera.

[Marged]

The best way to convince the morons they are wrong would be to get them to actually read the only book they ever talk about.


If people actually read the book of Revelation, they'd see it for what it is - one bad trip. It is one messed up book.

As much as the antichrist meme is out there (THANKS CNN!) (http://wonkette.com/401963/main-stream-media-ignores-scurrilous-rumors-but-picks-up-completely-insane-ones) the coolness of the evangelicals towards McCain shouldn't be ignored. He is not One of Them to the degree Bush was.

[Wallapuctus]

Revelations says exactly nothing about the race, religion, age or whatever about the antichrist. Nor does any other book in the bible. The best way to convince the morons they are wrong would be to get them to actually read the only book they ever talk about. But that's probably too much to ask.

The problem with Revalations it's it's a big pile of incoherent nonsense, so dummies around the world can be convinced it applies to just about anything.


I can't believe I'm discussing this. wtf ;____;

[Fooey]

As much as the antichrist meme is out there (THANKS CNN!) the coolness of the evangelicals towards McCain shouldn't be ignored. He is not One of Them to the degree Bush was.

He is post Saddleback. That was a total homerun for McCain.

[JeffL]

I'm worried. I see a lot of the Obama momentum starting to slow down, and him getting caught up in the tit for tat ad game does not play to his strengths.

Thinking about it more, odd as it seems, I think he should take a page from the Reagan shellacking of Carter. There are some parallels: the country is in an economic funk (not nearly as bad as then, but all people remember is now, and a lot of people are hurting in this economy,) people do not feel good about the country and it's direction in general, and you could say we have our own hostage crisis - we looked helpless as Iran thumbed their nose at us while they held American's prisoners, while we look helpless while OPEC holds us hostage to oil prices. (OK - a stretch - but not too much.)

Reagan blew in with the whole, excuse me StGabe, narrative of it's a new day dawning in America. America, we can change, we can turn this around and hold our heads back up. Reagan provided a vision of hope and optimism and change, and Americans WANT to feel good. They voted for what they saw as significant change. Obama needs to ride that horse and present the same type of message, as he did so successfully in the primaries. He didn't whip Hillary because he tore her down, in spite of her attempts to tear him down, he won because he stood up and did what he does best, delivered inspiring messages to a nation that dearly wants to be inspired again.

[Jason McCullough]

Atrios is having a field day with this, predictably.

1 (http://www.eschatonblog.com/2008_08_17_archive.html#6782237163682542228)

Those Houses Don't Clean Themselves, My Friends

As I wrote last night, my guess is that the amount of money McCain spends on household help, far more than most of the country earns (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/08/income_distribution_fun_facts.php), is really what's going to look bad.

2 (http://www.eschatonblog.com/2008_08_17_archive.html#811267220860151815).

You Can't Do It, My Friends

I suppose this is the right time to remember this. (http://www.thismodernworld.com/2811)

But he took more questions, including a pointed one on his immigration plan.

McCain responded by saying immigrants were taking jobs nobody else wanted. He offered anybody in the crowd $50 an hour to pick lettuce in Arizona.

Shouts of protest rose from the crowd, with some accepting McCain’s job offer.

“I’ll take it!” one man shouted.

McCain insisted none of them would do such menial labor for a complete season. “You can’t do it, my friends.”

Some in the crowd said they didn’t appreciate McCain questioning their work ethic.

“I was impressed with his comedy routine and ability to tap dance without music. But I was impressed with nothing else about him,” said John Wasniewski of Milwaukee. “He’s supposed to be Mr. Straight Talk?”Regular guy!

[BlueJackalope]

I'd stand on my head for $50/hour. What the hell.

[Quaro]

He must have meant 5 dollars an hour?

[z0diac]

He must have meant 5 dollars an hour?

He obviously has no idea how much people are paid lettuce picking these days. Hold on a sec though, his staff will get back to you on that.

[Angie Gallant]

No, he meant $50, his argument was that we need immigrants because there are jobs that no real American will do no matter how much we pay them.

[Andrew Mayer]

He obviously has no idea how much people are paid lettuce picking these days. Hold on a sec though, his staff will get back to you on that.

You can't do it, my friend! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpB9OoOU02M&eurl=http://www.eschatonblog.com/)

And the follow up ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZdi1JnMxFU)is up.

For those of you who think that the counterattack is a mistake, here's a pretty good analysis (http://daoureport.com/thescoop/campaign-warfare-how-the-gop-belittles-its-opponents/) about why this is the right thing to do:

Expanding the theme, it's worth noting that the rightwing attack machine has been effective in the past because it serves a singular purpose: diminishing opponents through mockery and marginalization. Bloggers have referred to recent presidential campaigns as "genital-swinging contests" (we're using the clean version). That crude image underlines the strategy: make your opponent look small - or smaller. Shrinkage, for Seinfeld buffs. Think of how Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh and their cohorts operate - it's all about the laughter, the joking, the snide remarks, the scoffing. It's about cutting someone down to size, making them look meek and meager.

Democrats have been stumped by the technique, missing the underlying purpose and getting sidetracked by the minutiae of the attacks. 'Rovian' is an overused adjective, but it is mistaken as a strategy of attacking an opponent's strength as an end in itself, when that's just one tactic in the larger mission of systematically belittling the opponent. Going after their strength is a logical part of reducing their stature.

...

What often confounds Democrats is how to respond to these attacks. Much is made of responding swiftly, a universal takeaway from 2004's 'swift-boat' attacks, but responding effectively is vastly more important. If the GOP's overarching goal is to make the Democratic candidate appear to be less of a man - or a woman - then the balance that must be struck is this: when someone attempts to make you seem smaller, you can either make yourself appear bigger, make your opponent seem smaller, or both. But try too hard to look big and you end up seeming arrogant, try even harder and you look desperate. Ignore the attacks and they stick, strike back at your opponent and you give the impression that the jabs are stinging.

[cesare]

On what grounds are you making these claims?

Eight years of living in Dick Cheney's America.

[NoWayJose]

“I was impressed with his comedy routine and ability to tap dance without music. But I was impressed with nothing else about him,” said John Wasniewski of Milwaukee. “He’s supposed to be Mr. Straight Talk?”
That IS straight talk. Even Obama's pro-American jobs ads are all about installing solar panels and building greener cars or whatever. Even he's not saying Americans can proudly use our hands to pick lettuce or clean kitchens or cut our lawns). We don't want to do those jobs, and there's nothing wrong with that. But they still have to get done.

[BlueJackalope]

That IS straight talk. Even Obama's pro-American jobs ads are all about installing solar panels and building greener cars or whatever. Even he's not saying Americans can proudly use our hands to pick lettuce or clean kitchens or cut our lawns). We don't want to do those jobs, and there's nothing wrong with that. But they still have to get done.

I'm guessing John Wasniewski of Milwaukee WI is coming from an anti-immigrant stance. As awkwardly as John McCain expresses it, he has generally been light years ahead of his own party in recognizing the reality of the low income labor market.

Still silly to assert that you can't find Americans to do anything for $50/hr.

[Lorini]

I'm guessing John Wasniewski of Milwaukee WI is coming from an anti-immigrant stance. As awkwardly as John McCain expresses it, he has generally been light years ahead of his own party in recognizing the reality of the low income labor market.

Still silly to assert that you can't find Americans to do anything for $50/hr.

The problem is that for many Republicans, bigotry is what drives their anti-immigration stance. They don't like Hispanics, they don't like seeing Spanish language signs in their local Target, and they don't like the growing political power of the Latino community. If the 'illegal immigrants' were sexy Swedish models, I doubt if there'd be much uproar about this.

[Bob Cherub]

Guys, this is serious news man. He OWNS HOUSES.

Obama is so right for going after this cause we all know Obama is just a poor man who's just like you and me. His household income is definitely not in the millions.

Definitely not.

OWNS HOUSES OMG.

[spiffy]

Bob sure knows how to cut through the bullshit.

[magnet]

Guys, this is serious news man. He OWNS HOUSES.

Life in ten houses must be grand, but for the rest of us times are tough.

[NoWayJose]

I'm guessing John Wasniewski of Milwaukee WI is coming from an anti-immigrant stance. As awkwardly as John McCain expresses it, he has generally been light years ahead of his own party in recognizing the reality of the low income labor market.

Still silly to assert that you can't find Americans to do anything for $50/hr.
He didn't say do anything. He said pick lettuce for an entire season. I'm sure you could find some. Probably not enough to pick all the lettuce, though.

[Jakub]

He didn't say do anything. He said pick lettuce for an entire season. I'm sure you could find some. Probably not enough to pick all the lettuce, though.
For $50/hr? I'm thinking you'd find a lot of Americans to do that.

[DragonPup]

Yea, 40 hours a week at $50/hour would make that job pay roughly $102,400. Or over twice what I make now. :|

[jeffd]

The argument isn't that Obama is trying to use attack ads, it's just that an ad on how many real estate properties the McCains have isn't the most effective tact.

You have polling data to back up this assertation, I assume? :)

So far the "house" gaffe and the attention drawn to it has worked. It's been a dominant narrative in mainstream media coverage over the past two to three days. Furthermore, a side effect seems to be the media getting sick of McCain's "but but I was a POW!" crap.

[Qmanol]

It seems to me that the whole houses thing is to simply push back against the portrayal of Obama as some rich elitist. The idea is that when someone goes on about Arugula, lattes, trips to Hawaii, you just point out that John McCain is so rich he can't even remember how many houses he owns.

Seriously, the guy is at least an order of magnitude richer than Obama, and they're playing the rich elitist attack? Kinda dumb. Kinda hypocritical. That's all this is intended to point out.

Not to mention that it's completely true. Unlike many of the attacks on Obama.

[NoWayJose]

Yea, 40 hours a week at $50/hour would make that job pay roughly $102,400. Or over twice what I make now. :|
It can be much more than that! Thanks to exemptions in the child labor laws, children hired as workers in the agricultural sector can work up to 40 hours a week! So your whole family can get involved, even those lazy 12 year olds.

Anyway, McCain's right about this. $50/hr or no, after about the fourth day of not being able to dip their french fries in their Frosties while posting pictures of cats in ceiling tiles, most Americans (Qt3 included) would just drop their lettuce bags and wander off in search of the nearest Wendys.

I don't get why saying that is such a bad thing. It's saying as a nation we've elevated our lifestyle to the point where we don't feel like we need to bend over in a field all day picking lettuce.

[TomChick]

I don't get why saying that is such a bad thing.

Because it's a misguided and superficial take on the immigration issue, as well as a sign that McCain is sadly out of touch with the plight of many American workers? But I dunno, maybe you look for something different in your Presidential candidates, like marital fidelity as an indication of character.

-Tom

[NoWayJose]

Because it's a misguided and superficial take on the immigration issue, as well as a sign that McCain is sadly out of touch with the plight of many American workers? But I dunno, maybe you look for something different in your Presidential candidates, like marital fidelity as an indication of character.

-Tom
So you think there's a vast number of plighted American workers out there wishing McCain or Obama would get rid of all current migrant farm workers so they could have those jobs?

I admit it was stupid for McCain to say $50/hr because he should have known people would seize on that instead of debating the actual issue. I will admit that. I just did, as a matter of fact.

But what he's saying is still correct.

[cesare]

Anyway, McCain's right about this. $50/hr or no, after about the fourth day of not being able to dip their french fries in their Frosties while posting pictures of cats in ceiling tiles, most Americans (Qt3 included) would just drop their lettuce bags and wander off in search of the nearest Wendys.

I could go out tomorrow and find a dozen friends who are shingling roofs in 90 degree weather, dealing with life or death situations as EMTs, spending all day loading and unloading heavy ass shit in warehouses, and who are making around $15 dollars an hour. And I could find you ten times as many hot dog venders, prep cooks, McCashiers, couriers, lab technicians, and ice cream servers who are making $10 an hour or less and would at least take a shot at ANYTHING that would pay $50 dollars an hour. That is a shitload of money, and you'd have to be completely out of touch with reality to not realize that.

But what he's saying is still correct.

No, it's not.

[madkevin]

Jesus. Look, I know your whole schtick here is to be the anti-whatever-you-think-Qt3-is-this-week, but really? You don't think people would be willing to do menial labour for FIFTY BUCKS AN HOUR? Because if so, you are hilariously out of touch with reality. Maybe not "I forget how many houses I own" out of touch, but still.

[StGabe]

But what he's saying is still correct.

Bzzzt, wrong.

And I can back that up with the fact that I've worked alongside migrant workers and non-migrants doing some extremely shitty jobs (picking lettuce is waaaaay better than moving 60lb living Christmas trees all day, which I did for a while).

[NoWayJose]

Yes, like I SAID, it was dumb of McCain to throw out the $50/hr. thing, because of course genius people will focus on that and not on the ACTUAL issue. So, once and for all, let's set the record straight: no one is going to pay you $50/hr. to pick lettuce unless and until the US dollar is so devalued that $50 equals present-day $2. Okay? Can we agree on that at least?

The point McCain is trying to make, and which you all actually agree with, is that the jobs these immigrants are doing will never be done by today's Americans. He says, "even if you paid $50/hr." I'll say, "even if you got rid of all the immigrants." Both are impossible statements. You guys all love hyperbole, why are you struggling so much with this?

Anyway, Obama is on board with McCain's immigration policy, for crying out loud! What are you arguing about?

[Huzurdaddi]

Yes, like I SAID, it was dumb of McCain to throw out the $50/hr. thing, because of course genius people will focus on that and not on the ACTUAL issue. So, once and for all, let's set the record straight: no one is going to pay you $50/hr. to pick lettuce unless and until the US dollar is so devalued that $50 equals present-day $2. Okay? Can we agree on that at least?

The point McCain is trying to make, and which you all actually agree with, is that the jobs these immigrants are doing will never be done by today's Americans. He says, "even if you paid $50/hr." I'll say, "even if you got rid of all the immigrants." Both are impossible statements. You guys all love hyperbole, why are you struggling so much with this?

Anyway, Obama is on board with McCain's immigration policy, for crying out loud! What are you arguing about?

WTF are you talking about? He said "I'll go offer anyone here 50/hr if you'll go pick Lettuce this season." Period. End of fucking statement.

He has *no fucking idea* of the wages people are paid. End of story. When I was going to university I would have killed to get a job that paid 50 dollars an hour and I bet most of friends would have done the same. He was never poor (although you don't have to be poor to understand that 50 dollars an hour is an asston of money) so he just has no clue. None. Hell I would have taken it after university too.

Anyone making such a statement is simply a fool or a jackass.

50 dollars a fucking hour for unskilled labor. Insanity. It is completely indefensible. Amazing he is the GOP canidate after pulling such a stunt. Man owning the media helps a lot.

[StGabe]

Can we agree on that at least?

Nice try. No one but you ever made this an issue of migration.

[lesslucid]

Yes, like I SAID, it was dumb of McCain to throw out the $50/hr. thing, because of course genius people will focus on that and not on the ACTUAL issue. So, once and for all, let's set the record straight: no one is going to pay you $50/hr. to pick lettuce unless and until the US dollar is so devalued that $50 equals present-day $2. Okay? Can we agree on that at least?

The point McCain is trying to make, and which you all actually agree with, is that the jobs these immigrants are doing will never be done by today's Americans. He says, "even if you paid $50/hr." I'll say, "even if you got rid of all the immigrants." Both are impossible statements. You guys all love hyperbole, why are you struggling so much with this?

Anyway, Obama is on board with McCain's immigration policy, for crying out loud! What are you arguing about?

And if he said that red was a type of blue, you'd say, apart from a mixup with the colours, the statement is completely accurate?

People are seizing on his statement because it's dumb and wrong and it's a way to make McCain look stupid. His substantive point - that lettuce will cost more if you don't have immigrants doing the hard work for low wages - has some substance to it but is also not the whole story and certainly shouldn't be the beginning and end of a discussion about migration. But politics is not about debating substantive issues, sadly. I think anyone who has thought hard and seriously about what they want from a policy point of view has already decided their vote by now. So the fight is over the great mass of people who aren't really into politics and who really can be swayed by stupid things like lettuce or a mis-spoken phrase that can be turned into an attack-ad soundbite... the fight takes place in this gutter because that's where it can be won or lost. It would be nice if it weren't the case, but given that it is... well, everyone wants to win, if they need to get in the mud to do it, that's what they'll do.

[jeffd]

It's hilarious to me how many people still engage with NoWayJose.

[TomChick]

It's hilarious to me how many people still engage with NoWayJose.

You just can't do it, my friend.

-Tom

[NoWayJose]

Nice try. No one but you ever made this an issue of migration.
I didn't either. I'm talking about IMmigration. So is McCain. So is the guy who asked him the question. What are you talking about?

[NoWayJose]

WTF are you talking about? He said "I'll go offer anyone here 50/hr if you'll go pick Lettuce this season." Period. End of fucking statement.

He has *no fucking idea* of the wages people are paid. End of story. When I was going to university I would have killed to get a job that paid 50 dollars an hour and I bet most of friends would have done the same. He was never poor (although you don't have to be poor to understand that 50 dollars an hour is an asston of money) so he just has no clue. None. Hell I would have taken it after university too.

Anyone making such a statement is simply a fool or a jackass.

50 dollars a fucking hour for unskilled labor. Insanity. It is completely indefensible. Amazing he is the GOP canidate after pulling such a stunt. Man owning the media helps a lot.
This whole post is the best response ever. It's the best response I've ever read in my entire life. I might as well go read about a guy eating mild salsa over and over and getting sick every time. What is there left to say after a post like this?

[NoWayJose]

And if he said that red was a type of blue, you'd say, apart from a mixup with the colours, the statement is completely accurate?

People are seizing on his statement because it's dumb and wrong and it's a way to make McCain look stupid. His substantive point - that lettuce will cost more if you don't have immigrants doing the hard work for low wages - has some substance to it but is also not the whole story and certainly shouldn't be the beginning and end of a discussion about migration. But politics is not about debating substantive issues, sadly. I think anyone who has thought hard and seriously about what they want from a policy point of view has already decided their vote by now. So the fight is over the great mass of people who aren't really into politics and who really can be swayed by stupid things like lettuce or a mis-spoken phrase that can be turned into an attack-ad soundbite... the fight takes place in this gutter because that's where it can be won or lost. It would be nice if it weren't the case, but given that it is... well, everyone wants to win, if they need to get in the mud to do it, that's what they'll do.
The positive in this for Obama, if there has to be one, is that it takes the conversation away from his biography or lack of one. Unfortunately, starting next week we're going to be yanked right back into that black hole. The longer Obama talks about who he is, the longer he'll stay neck and neck with McCain, because it's the one area where McCain will beat him, hands down, every single time.

I think someone in here said people will get tired of the POW thing. Really? I doubt it. And certainly they won't replace it with the story of a guy raised in Hawaii who went to Harvard law school. I'm pretty sure about that.

[Woolen Horde]

Apparently some Dems are making "Mansion Accomplished" banners for McCain rallies. Wooooo!

[StGabe]

The positive in this for Obama, if there has to be one, is that it takes the conversation away from his biography or lack of one.

Right, because a life spent as a community organizer, Constitutional lawyer state legislator and then Senator isn't much of a biography. Nevermind that he worked his way up from Occidental College to Columbia and only later Harvard Law, where he went on to become the first black president of the Harvard Law review. Nevermind that he grew up solidly middle class and lost his dad at an early age.

Please. I wish people could admit that when they talk about "experience" and "qualifications" for a candidate they really just mean that they want some nice made-for-TV movie traits like being a POW or the President's wife.

I mean, sure, I get it. I'm not saying that a lot of people don't think that way. But in a forum like this we can at least try to be better than that.

[ydejin]

Apparently some Dems are making "Mansion Accomplished" banners for McCain rallies. Wooooo!

Shouldn't that be "Mansions Accomplished".

[NoWayJose]

Right, because a life spent as a community organizer, Constitutional lawyer state legislator and then Senator isn't much of a biography. Nevermind that he worked his way up from Occidental College to Columbia and only later Harvard Law, where he went on to become the first black president of the Harvard Law review. Nevermind that he grew up solidly middle class and lost his dad at an early age.

Please. I wish people could admit that when they talk about "experience" and "qualifications" for a candidate they really just mean that they want some nice made-for-TV movie traits like being a POW or the President's wife.

I mean, sure, I get it. I'm not saying that a lot of people don't think that way. But in a forum like this we can at least try to be better than that.
I am better than that. That's why I'm voting for Obiden.

But Obama should try to get past this vagueness the public has about him. I don't know how he's gonna do it, though. I suspect it's not the worst thing in the world and he'll win anyway.

But Occidental College? vs Hanoi Hilton? You're kidding. I mean, OC isn't the greatest school in the world but I don't think they break your arms there as a matter of course.

[Andrew Mayer]

But Occidental College? vs Hanoi Hilton? You're kidding. I mean, OC isn't the greatest school in the world but I don't think they break your arms there as a matter of course.

I hear the history professors at the Hanoi were terrible.

[wisefool]

People are making too big a deal about this. The man's old! Reagan was younger than him, and he had Alzheimer's.

[bago]

sweet Jesus. It took me ten years in the industry to hit that rate. And I am architecting stiff at a fortune 500 company. Mister I married a blond heiress not much older than Paris Hilton can go dick himself

[wildpokerman]

It's hilarious to me how many people still engage with NoWayJose.

I'd vote Jose as king of the forum. Most trolls flame out in some huge blaze of glory either because they actually take this forum crap personally or because they really really are a bit crazy.

We could use a few more nut balls that know where the line is.

[jeffd]

fwiw I agree, NoWayJose is probably the best troll this forum has.

Still a worthless dirtbag, though. But hey at least he's long lived.