Obama and McCain Faith Forum has begun

[Angie Gallant]

I'm not incredibly thrilled that they are doing this to begin with, but it's on MSNBC right now. Obama is up first, McCain is in a sound-proof room so he won't be able to attack Obama's statements without Obama getting a rebuttal.

[Sarkus]

I'm not incredibly thrilled that they are doing this to begin with, but it's on MSNBC right now. Obama is up first, McCain is in a sound-proof room so he won't be able to attack Obama's statements without Obama getting a rebuttal.

It's CNN, not MSNBC. I only remember because they've been promoting the hell out of it all week.

[Angie Gallant]

Well, I have the MSNBC logo in the lower right hand corner of my screen.

I will say that so far the questions have been very good, and Obama is putting a lot of thought into his answers and expanding on them.

[Sarkus]

Actually, it looks like it's not a network specific event, despite CNN's promotion. Both are showing it, as is Fox.

[AaronSofaer]

Transcript-as-you-go, by any chance, at any website?

[Sarkus]

Transcript-as-you-go, by any chance, at any website?

CNN is streaming it live on their website, not sure about a transcript.

[AaronSofaer]

Don't have the wherewithal to listen, only read.

[Quaro]

I just tuned in. In the 5 minutes that I watched, Obama seems relaxed, thoughtful, and even funny. They should send him on vacation more often.

[Angie Gallant]

Yeah. I haven't been too thrilled with some of his answers, but no one I completely agree with will ever get this close to the presidency. But he definitely isn't shying away from the questions and he really wants to answer them all in depth even though they don't have the time.

[Tankero]

No audio on mine...

[Angie Gallant]

Obama has managed to tread that minefield without losing any major limbs, and so now the comedy portion of our evening begins.

[Quaro]

McCain's doing well too. He's reusing all his stories, I've heard him tell these exact ones at other town hall meetings, but they work well and he's got the patter down.

[Angie Gallant]

He dodged hard on what should be considered "rich."

[Quaro]

Ok, McCain is still doing well, but I'm going crazy as more than half the things he says, and ALL the jokes, are stock stories.

[DragonPup]

Did McCain just say 'cyberspace'? It's like the 90's all over again.

[Angie Gallant]

Per McCain, no other country has gone to war to defend another country before? Did I hear that wrong?

Also, McCain confirmed 3 of the 4 Justices he said he wouldn't appoint, and wasn't in office for Stevens.

[Lum]

Meanwhile Bobbarr is angry candy. (http://www.bobbarr2008.com/press/press-releases/91/barr-to-stop-mccain-obama-from-receiving-illegal-contributions-files-for-injunction-against-church-event-that-violates-campaign-finance-laws/)

[jerri blank]

I watched a little of the post-event commentary, and I found myself getting more and more pissed off that this event even occurred. I would LOVE for one of the candidates to have the balls to remind everyone that the Constitution specifically prohibits a religious test for running for president. The only candidate who has done that this time around was Mitt Romney, and it was in the context of his begging the fundies not to hold his Mormonism against him.

I wonder if there will ever be a day when a major celebrity pastor hosts a political event and either candidate has the nerve to find somewhere else to be.

[Angie Gallant]

I am lov--- hating the anti-intellectual tone of all the post-event commentary. McCain is great because his answers were short and black and white! Obama is bad because his answers acknowledged more than one side of an issue and made us use that lump of meat in our heads!

[magnet]

the Constitution specifically prohibits a religious test for running for president.

I'm pretty sure that means that the government itself cannot require a religious test. And since Bob Barr hasn't been disqualified from office despite getting on Rick Warren's FAIL list, I guess the constitution is safe.

For now.

[jerri blank]

I'm not saying what happened tonight was unconstitutional. What I'm saying is that the religious right, in cahoots with the media, have imposed a de facto religious test that makes me pretty damned uncomfortable.

[Sarkus]

While a majority of American's continue to identify themselves as "christian" it's going to be hard for a presidential candidate to ignore those types of questions.

[Fooey]

This was a huge waste of time. People who care what evangelical megachurch preachers think are abortion voters and are going for McCain no matter what his definition of rich is.

[Angie Gallant]

I don't think it was entirely a waste of time. Obama has a lot of footage of him speaking eloquently about his Christian faith and refuting the idea that he's the most lefty liberal of all. And McCain made some mistakes, like saying he wouldn't have nominated a bunch of Justices that he appointed. He also said a lot of things out there that will make women and independents rethink their support, he went super-hard right.

It would be nice if this had been a Science Forum instead of a Faith Forum, but no one gives a shit about science issues in this country anymore.

[Jason McCullough]

This was a huge waste of time. People who care what evangelical megachurch preachers think are abortion voters and are going for McCain no matter what his definition of rich is.

Actually, polling shows the evangelical vote is up for grabs a lot more this year. McCain is an old white guy, but he's not remotely religious.

[Sarkus]

I listened to most of it, and while there were some religious oriented questions, I don't think that's out of place when you have a Democract who identifies himself as a strong christian and a Republican who represents a party that gets excited about conservative christian values. Frankly I was impressed by the whole thing and thought it was an informative way of hearing the candidates cover a lot of subjects in a more relaxed forum then we usually see them. At the very least it was a different way to see them. Town hall meetings seem full of planted questions half the time and debates are driven by the typical media focus on events.

[Malathor]

McCain is an old white guy, but he's not remotely religious.

That being one of his strongest pluses.

[Sidd_Budd]

It would be nice if this had been a Science Forum instead of a Faith Forum, but no one gives a shit about science issues in this country anymore.
This is so untrue. For example, a noticeable number of Americans care about schools teaching alternatives to the alleged theory of evolution. That's like, all about science.

Not to mention dinosaurs and early humans living together in primitive scientific harmony.

[Ryan A]

This was a huge waste of time. People who care what evangelical megachurch preachers think are abortion voters and are going for McCain no matter what his definition of rich is.

You're being a bigot. You're also being dumb. This forum wasn't about what Rick Warren thinks, it was about where Obama and McCain stand on issues people of faith might care about.

[magnet]

Evangelicals are moving towards Obama (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/10/new-pac-seeks-to-court-christians-for-obama/), as part of a growing realization that the GOP doesn't actually represent their interests.

In fact, an evangelical 527 just put out this pro-Obama ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eUkc9GCMEQ&eurl=http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/8/15/11056/0849). The ad features Kirbyjohn Caldwell - yes, that Kirbyjohn Caldwell. You know, the guy who officiated Jenna Bush's wedding.

[skedastic]

McCain is an old white guy, but he's not remotely religious.

Am I missing some irony here? McCain is a deeply religious man explicitly running a deeply religious campaign. Unlike the current president, as far as I know he hasn't claimed God tells him which policies to pursue, and he has put a sliver of distance between himself and the nuttiest of the fundies. But there's a vast chasm between "less religious than Bush" and "not remotely religious."


Asked their most difficult decision, Mr. Obama recalled his vote against the war in Iraq. Mr. McCain cited his decision to refuse early release as a POW.


Obama: `Difficult decision? I had difficulty deciding whether to support committing the United States to an invasion of a foreign country.'

MCain: `Difficult decision? I think I'll use this opportunity to remind you that I WAS A POW. A FRICKIN' POW. I FOUGHT IN A WAR AND THEN I WAS A POW. REMEMBER? Just in case you forgot, since I haven't mentioned it in almost seven minutes.'

[Matthew Gallant]

MCain: `Difficult decision? I think I'll use this opportunity to remind you that I WAS A POW. A FRICKIN' POW. I FOUGHT IN A WAR AND THEN I WAS A POW. REMEMBER? Just in case you forgot, since I haven't mentioned it in almost seven minutes.'
Well, at least we know he won't tell the bad guys where to get stuff for suicide vests or how to fly a plane if he gets captured again.

[Jason McCullough]

McCain is a deeply religious man explicitly running a deeply religious campaign. Unlike the current president, as far as I know he hasn't claimed God tells him which policies to pursue, and he has put a sliver of distance between himself and the nuttiest of the fundies. But there's a vast chasm between "less religious than Bush" and "not remotely religious."

I'm not sure I follow. McCain had practically zero political involvement with religion or politically active religious types before this campaign. The political evangelical network doesn't like him very much; Dobson hates his guts. Unlike Bush, he doesn't make it a point to use religious imagery every time he speaks, and when he does, he's terrible at it.

I have no idea how religious he is personally, but in the public sphere he's not remotely.

[Funkula]

Well, there was the part where some interviewer asked him about his religion, and he responded he was a Baptist, despite the fact that he's identified as Episcopalian for his entire life. (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/12906.html)

[Sarkus]

I'm not sure I follow. McCain had practically zero political involvement with religion or politically active religious types before this campaign. The political evangelical network doesn't like him very much; Dobson hates his guts. Unlike Bush, he doesn't make it a point to use religious imagery every time he speaks, and when he does, he's terrible at it.

I have no idea how religious he is personally, but in the public sphere he's not remotely.

I agree. In this campaign Obama has talked about his faith a lot more than McCain has, not even factoring in the Wright story.

[skedastic]

I have no idea how religious he is personally, but in the public sphere he's not remotely.

McCain:

Believes that the Constitution founds the U.S. as a "Christian nation."
Believes the single most important characteristic of a president is someone who will uphold "Judeo-Christian values."
Was raised a devout Episcopalian, attended religious schools.
Is now an active member of an evangelical Baptist mega-church.
Supports teaching creationism in public schools (although he himself says he believes in evolution, he hasn't elaborated on exactly what he means by that. Even W. refuses to explicitly state he rejects evolution).
Supports mandatory prayer in public schools.
Wants to ban gay marriage.
Opposes Roe v Wade.
Regularly uses coded messages to evangelicals in speeches, notably using imagery from Left Behind to suggest Obama is the anti-christ.
Has the support of 68% of evangelicals, v 24% for Obama. 80% supported Bush, so roughly 6 out of every 7 of the evangelicals who supported Bush now support McCain.
Dobson invited McCain to his compound, and then got pissed after McCain refused to come. McCain has the support of many other loony evangelical preachers, including Hagee, later having to distance himself due to Hagee's anti-Catholic musings.
Made up with Falwell by giving address at Liberty "Univerity" and publically withdrawing criticism from 2000 campaign.
First book is titled Faith of my Fathers. Regularly combines his "I WAS A FRICKIN' POW" message with "AND CHRIST GOT ME THROUGH THAT ORDEAL." Two birds with one stone! "Not remotely religious" seems to me to be a ridiculously inaccurate way to describe McCain's campaign.

[bago]

# Supports mandatory prayer in public schools.
# Wants to ban gay marriage.
# Opposes Roe v Wade.

Never was sure where these things were addressed in the bible, except for the semetic opposition to buggery.

[jerri blank]

Speculation is beginning to brew, mostly over at Kos, that the Christian gun guard story he told the other night is made up or at least stolen. Even if you're not a fan of that site, there are a lot of valid questions being raised.

[malphigian]

Well, there was the part where some interviewer asked him about his religion, and he responded he was a Baptist, despite the fact that he's identified as Episcopalian for his entire life. (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/12906.html)

He has been attending the church for a long time though, so it's not completely out of nowhere. Still, it is weird to say you're a baptist and you haven't been baptized -- it's right there in the name!

[Quaro]

Oh please. That's not going to be fruitful line of attack. Better to bring up how he answers almost any question with that same story at all the town hall meetings.

If you want to nit pick, apparently McCain hadn't even arrived at the church until halfway into Obama's interview, so he could have heard the questions ahead of time.

[Andrew Mayer]

I think the idea of the "cone of silence" is incredibly stupid, but McCain agreed to it, and then broke the rules and broke the rules (http://www.johnmccain.com/mccainreport/Read.aspx?guid=86cd988c-66ce-4416-951e-489c30596ee1):

The facts are that Senator McCain was in a motorcade led by the United States Secret Service and held in a green room with no broadcast feed.

The whole attitude of the press release is incredibly childlike. Rather than suck it up and apologize for not living up to their end of the bargain they're claiming it's sour grapes from Obama.

This kind of parsing and equivocating that, to my mind, shows someone is unfit to lead.

[Jason McCullough]

"Not remotely religious" seems to me to be a ridiculously inaccurate way to describe McCain's campaign.

All of those things you said Bob Dole also did; it's just part for the course with the GOP now. Compared to an european campaign, sure, he's freaky religious, but for the median GOP candidate he's kind of phoning it in.

[Matthew Gallant]

The thing that bothered me most about watching this was the congregation hooting and hollering over McCain's initial bullet point concerning the energy crisis being "We've got to drill now!" They got really excited over that. I guess they all have Exxon stock.

They seemed rather measured and respectful otherwise.

[Quaro]

Yeah, whatever, it's not a big deal. I did find this hilarious though:

“The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.

[Andrew Mayer]

Yeah, whatever, it's not a big deal. I did find this hilarious though:

That's part of the McCain demanding an apology from NBC for mentioning it.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

[Bob Cherub]

Never was sure where these things were addressed in the bible, except for the semetic opposition to buggery.

I guess in them there Bible times no one thought people would suck out babies with vacuums.

[Nezz]

Never was sure where these things were addressed in the bible, except for the semetic opposition to buggery.
Never was sure where the sufficiency of the Bible for settling any kind of question was addressed in the Bible.

[Andrew Mayer]

I guess in them there Bible times no one thought people would suck out babies with vacuums.

Nice work denying divine inspiration for the holy writ.

[bago]

I guess in them there Bible times no one thought people would suck out babies with vacuums.

Well, you have to admit, by today's standards, god is kind of a pussy. Fire and brimstone? Floods? Try MOTHERFUCKING NUKES and ORBITAL LASERS!

[Brian Rucker]

It would be nice if this had been a Science Forum instead of a Faith Forum, but no one gives a shit about science issues in this country anymore.

Someone does:

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=8

Science Debate 2008 is a grassroots initiative spearheaded by a growing number of scientists and other concerned citizens. The signatories to our "Call for a Presidential Debate on Science & Technology" include the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), the Council on Competitiveness, the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering, the Institute of Medicine, over 150 leading universities and associations, Nobel laureates and other leading scientists, major business leaders, presidents of universities and major associations, congresspersons of both major political parties, religious leaders, former presidential science advisors, the editors of America's major science journals, writers, and many others.

We have noticed that science and technology lie at the center of a very large number of the policy issues facing our nation and the world - issues that profoundly affect our national and economic security as science and technology continue to transform our lives. No matter one's political stripe, these issues pose important pragmatic policy challenges.

We believe these scientific and technological policy challenges can bring out the best in the entrepreneurial American spirit. America can be a leader in finding cures for our worst diseases, inventing the best alternative energy sources, and graduating the most scientifically literate children in the world - or we can concede these economic and humanitarian benefits to other countries.

We believe a debate on these issues would be the ideal opportunity for America and the candidates to explore our national priorities on the issues, and it is hard to imagine any candidate not wishing to be involved in such an occasion.

Please join us and make Science Debate 2008 a reality.

Originally posted the link in the "War on Science" (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=12663&highlight=War+On+Science+Regulatory&page=8) thread.

[Jason McCullough]

I guess in them there Bible times no one thought people would suck out babies with vacuums.

Yeah, back then God did his child murder by weather (http://herodotuswept.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/fun-bible-quotes/).

While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: “Your sons and daughters were feasting in their oldest brother’s home. Suddenly, a powerful wind [sent by God] swept in from the desert and hit the house on all sides. The house collapsed, and all your children are dead. I am the only one who escaped to tell you.” (Job 1:18-19 NLT)

[http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008083418/obvious-question]Rick Perlstein[/url] has a fun comment:

Now that we've seen both candidates for president grilled by a preacher at an Evangelical megachurch, when can we expect a similar ritual at an AFL-CIO convention, with John Sweeney doing the questioning?

[Unicorn McGriddle]

But Jason, Job's children were adults. Which makes killing them okay.

[JeffL]

Obama: `Difficult decision? I had difficulty deciding whether to support committing the United States to an invasion of a foreign country.'

MCain: `Difficult decision? I think I'll use this opportunity to remind you that I WAS A POW. A FRICKIN' POW. I FOUGHT IN A WAR AND THEN I WAS A POW. REMEMBER? Just in case you forgot, since I haven't mentioned it in almost seven minutes.'

I just watched my Tivoed version. I thought McCain did pretty well, Obama OK.

I believe the comments on McCain above are a little unfair. He was asked about the most difficult decision he's ever had to make. Being asked if he would like to leave that shithole he was stuffed in, and the daily torture that left him disabled, and go home, with no assurance he'd ever be able to go home if he turned this down, when it would mean leaving before others who should go first according to the Code of Conduct, was a damned difficult decision and one I doubt many here could answered in the way he did. As much as I want Obama to win, I'd consider that a much more difficult decision to make than whether to speak against the war as an Illinois state senator when you don't even have to make the public vote that the U.S. Senators were faced with. I think I could have made the stand Obama made without a huge loss of sleep - I doubt I could have made the decision to turn down the chance to leave a shithole of torture to go home.

Obama almost slipped and said he would have voted against Clarence Thomas because Thomas was too inexperienced, and made a quick save and reworded it. Good for him, as I'm sure that would have been tossed back at him.

Frankly, I was suprised at how well McCain did - he came across very poised, thoughtful, and specific for the most part. Obama was relaxed as I'd expect him to be, but I think he's going to have to sharpen up his ability to be concise and specific before the debates (not because I don't like long thoughtful answers, but because debates don't allow it.)

Oh, also, for those who don't know Rick Warren, one thing to keep in mind is that he has been a major driver for the Christian community to demonstrate more love for others than judgement of others. Sure, he's anti-abortion, and doesn't believe in legalizing gay marriage (but neither does Obama on that issue) but he has been trying hard to put more of the love and care for others as the foremost characteristic for the Christian church. FWIW.

[extarbags]

All of those things you said Bob Dole also did

Really? Does that include these?

* Believes the single most important characteristic of a president is someone who will uphold "Judeo-Christian values."
* Supports teaching creationism in public schools (although he himself says he believes in evolution, he hasn't elaborated on exactly what he means by that. Even W. refuses to explicitly state he rejects evolution).
* Supports mandatory prayer in public schools.
* Opposes Roe v Wade.
* Regularly uses coded messages to evangelicals in speeches, notably using imagery from Left Behind to suggest Obama is the anti-christ.
* Made up with Falwell by giving address at Liberty "Univerity" and publically withdrawing criticism from 2000 campaign.
* First book is titled Faith of my Fathers. Regularly combines his "I WAS A FRICKIN' POW" message with "AND CHRIST GOT ME THROUGH THAT ORDEAL." Two birds with one stone!


A certain amount of pandering-to-whackjobs is to be expected, especially of Republican candidates, but some of that stuff is well over the line.

[Brian Rucker]

The bottom line on McCain for me was "We must fight evil everywhere and we can do it without raising taxes!" (Paraphrased). That and he wants a Supreme Court straight out of the paleolithic age.

If this guy doesn't scare you because either he believes this crap or the people who do believe this crap will vote for him then...I don't know what to say.

[Marged]

I heard the most nauseating reaction on NPR after the forum from some dude who was leaning McCain and really liked what he heard from him at Saddleback because "he didn't need to think," before he answered.

Because God forbid we elect a president who thinks before he talks and acts.

[Andrew Mayer]

I heard the most nauseating reaction on NPR after the forum from some dude who was leaning McCain and really liked what he heard from him at Saddleback because "he didn't need to think," before he answered.

Because God forbid we elect a president who thinks before he talks and acts.

It may turn out that he didn't need to think because he'd already heard the questions.

[Hanacker]

I heard the most nauseating reaction on NPR after the forum from some dude who was leaning McCain and really liked what he heard from him at Saddleback because "he didn't need to think," before he answered.

Because God forbid we elect a president who thinks before he talks and acts.

I disagreed with his stance on pretty much everything, and his answers were far less nuanced than Obama's but he gave decent answers and it does make one look more prepared if they can immediately answer a question (the issue of whether or not he heard the questions beforehand notwithstanding). I mean these were pretty much all questions that a candidate should have expected or already have an opinion on. If he made a lot of George W. Bush-esque gaffes I'd agree with you, but he didn't.

[Brian Rucker]

I recall him calling Darfur, "Rwanda", repeatedly at one point.

[skedastic]

I believe the comments on McCain above are a little unfair. He was asked about the most difficult decision he's ever had to make. Being asked if he would like to leave that shithole he was stuffed in,

The point is that he's vying to be President. He wasn't being interviewed for a biography. When asked about difficult decisions, in context he should have told us about a difficult policy decision, because that's what's relevant. Using the opportunity to prattle on about being a war hero is irrelevant, cynical and manipulative.

[Tankero]

The point is that he's vying to be President. He wasn't being interviewed for a biography. When asked about difficult decisions, in context he should have told us about a difficult policy decision, because that's what's relevant. Using the opportunity to prattle on about being a war hero is irrelevant, cynical and manipulative.


And it WORKS!

[JeffL]

The point is that he's vying to be President. He wasn't being interviewed for a biography. When asked about difficult decisions, in context he should have told us about a difficult policy decision, because that's what's relevant. Using the opportunity to prattle on about being a war hero is irrelevant, cynical and manipulative.

He was asked what was the most difficult decision in his life he's had to make. He was not asked what is the toughest policy choice you've had to make. The answer was far from cynical, it was no doubt the most difficult decision he's had to make in his life, because it was easily a choice that could have cost him his life. Not all of the questions in the interview were focused on what would you do in the White House if faced with such and such a decision.

I'm voting for Obama but his answer on his toughest decision being opposing the war in Iraq (even though he's never made a vote in Congress against it) was relatively weak, in my opinion, as it involved no real risk or consequence at the time. It was the right decision, and demonstrated an ability to assess and evaluate, but if that's the most difficult decision he's had to make in life he's had a pretty easy life.

[Hanacker]

Yeah, Obama's answer was at least as manipulative as McCain's. "Hey guys, remember how I was the only one of the candidates who didn't support the war in Iraq?"

[Dave Markell]

He was asked what was the most difficult decision in his life he's had to make. He was not asked what is the toughest policy choice you've had to make. The answer was far from cynical, it was no doubt the most difficult decision he's had to make in his life, because it was easily a choice that could have cost him his life.

I agree. There's plenty of reasons to dislike and attack the current version of McCain, but this isn't one of them. What he said was the only honest answer possible--nothing he has faced since (or Obama has faced ever) comes close to being that difficult.

[Sol Invictus]

McCain campaign statement regarding people questioning McCain's all important POW experiences
"It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others."

How touching, Michael Goldfarb.

[BlueJackalope]

McCain campaign statement regarding people questioning McCain's all important POW experiences


How touching, Michael Goldfarb.

Funny as hell (really), next he'll call them "internet weenies".

[Angie Gallant]

Oops, made a new thread for that one.