Question about money/family involvement.

[0racle]

About 5 years ago my grandfather passed away and left me some money for a downpayment on a house. My dad talked me into putting it into an account with his name on it in a joint account. Neither one of us can pull it out without both of us signing for it. My dad and I have never really gotten along, but at the time I was 19, and still hoping to salvage sort of a relationship with my father. He had told me that if I really wanted it he would sign it over and I trusted him. I have found a really nice house for a really decent price. But my father has a power trip and won't sign the money over to me for the house. Part of this is because my grandmother had put some money into my bank account as a gift and he insists I've stolen it from her. But mostly I think it's because he doesn't think I'll be able to go it on my own. I currently still live with my mom, but I do decent for myself. I'm sort of lost for what to do. I don't want to get into a legal debate with him over this. I'm just curious as to what ideas you guys might have.

[Midnight Son]

Too bad we can't pick our own parents.

I know that doesn't help. Sorry.

[Fugitive]

It seems unlikely there'd be any legal recourse, since you did agree to the joint account as an adult. Maybe you can just bribe him off with a percentage of the account, arguing that otherwise you'll refuse and nobody gets anything out of it.

[0racle]

The thing about it is, he doesn't want the money, he really thinks that if he's not there to make my decisions for me, then I'll make the wrong ones. I tried once before to get the money for a house. I missed out on that one, and probably am gonna miss out on this one. It just gets frustrating.

[Leah C]

Is there another family member that can talk some sense into him? Grandmother, aunt, uncle? I usually try and keep my drama limited to one person directly but I think if I was in your situation, I might branch out and ask for help. A house down payment is a pretty big deal.

[Lunch of Kong]

Sucks, man. He exerts influence over you. You need to find out who exerts influence over him, and get that person to convince him to release your funds.

[rossm]

Can you access it once he dies? Just asking..

[Shadarr]

What happens in the event your father dies unexpectedly? Or disappears without a trace?

[stusser]

So hold off. Who needs to own a house at 24 years of age? Who knows where you'll be or do in 5 minutes much less 5 years?

[Machfive]

So hold off. Who needs to own a house at 24 years of age? Who knows where you'll be or do in 5 minutes much less 5 years?

I bought a house with my GF when I was two months shy of 25. Probably one of the best things I've ever done in my life.

What's wrong with this 0racle wanting to get out on his own and skip that bullshit apartment phase?

[stusser]

He still lives with his mother, and he's ready to deal with a mortgage, property taxes, upkeep, etc? Nah. May have worked with you, but not a great idea.

Also you're in detroit, where the housing market is so depressed that you can buy a (crack) house for one dollar (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080813/METRO/808130360/&imw=Y). OK, not a great house, but the point stands. Pretty much everywhere else it's cheaper to rent than own. Although parts of florida, suburbs of phoenix, and inland california are definitely getting close to making sense.

[0racle]

My dad is the type that its his way or the highway, so noone else has influence on him, not since my grandfather died. My grandmother doesn't wanna argue with him, and she doesn't wanna commit either way. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm guessing that when he does eventually die, I get the money. And I had previously resigned myself to that fact, but this new house made me try to get at the money again. And stusser, I understand where you're coming from there, but I just don't see renting and (in my opinion) throwing away money on something I won't own when I can put a down payment on something and make the same payments towards owning something. I realize my life may change between now and then, but my frugality just doesn't justify me renting a place. And 24 isn't necessarily a ripe old age to settle down in, but I'm really happy where I'm at, my friends and family are here. Most of my friends are married or engaged. They are all living here. So I hope that answers your question.

[WarrenM]

Renting isn't always the worst option. Especially if you can get a cheap place and save up for a house while living there. No property taxes, repairs, etc. Renting does have advantages.

[stusser]

Heh. Do the math and see if it's worthwhile to buy vs. rent (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/business/2007_BUYRENT_GRAPHIC.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) in your location. You may be surprised. Or not, florida is pretty depressed already.

You talk about "throwing away money" so let me ask you this-- do you have any savings? If so, are they invested? Savings accounts don't count.

Remember, a house is not an investment. It doesn't produce anything, like a factory. You live there. Only buy if it's cheaper to buy than rent and invest the down payment. Real estate does not appreciate past inflation over time, and for the next couple of years it's a safe bet it'll depreciate.

[0racle]

Basically, the down payment leaves me about 2 or 3 thousand dollars short of what the house itself costs. My aunt is the real estate agent and is willing to help get the price lowered so I have some extra just in case money. As of right now, the money itself has been in a CD the entire time since my grandfather died, collecting interest. I have a decent amount of savings, nothing spectacular, but enough for emergencies if they came about. Renting would cost me more, and I havn't checked if it's much more or a little more. But I do see what your saying, and from the way my dad is acting about the whole thing. It's very likely that I'll have to rent anyways, because I've been ready to get out of the house for a while. I just have to come to that breaking point on my own. Something that takes time and eventually being fed up of living at home with no alternative.

[Fugitive]

It wouldn't hurt to live on your own for a little while first anyway, just to get used to it without additional homeowner responsibilities. Houses are rarely once-in-a-lifetime deals that you have to get right this moment.

[SpoofyChop]

All the advice you get here is going to suck including this but I'm going to propose you do something totally crazy:

Sit down with your dad and talk to him about the whole situation. Tell him that you really like the idea of owning a home and explain why.

Tell him that you understand that he isn't willing to let you access the money but explain that even if he doesn't let you access it now, you'd like to work with him on a long term plan to get into a position where he would let you access the money. Ask him to describe some long term goals (1 year, 2 year) that you could work toward that would make him feel comfortable enough to sign over the money. Like working toward some kind of end goal that would demonstrate to him that it IS a good idea to let you have the money.

For instance, maybe he'll suggest that you save up an amount equal to 25% or 50%, of the money in the joint savings account to demonstrate financial responsibility. Find out what you would have to do to demonstrate that you have what *he* thinks it takes to make it work.

Then as long as the goals are even faintly reasonable, try to do them.

My feeling is that if your dad is the kind of person that he sounds like he's basically going to sabotage the entire thing and make it impossible for you to achieve the goals. He's going to change the rules in some way, or he's going to refuse to honor the deal.

So start with the attitude that you will never get the money until he dies. Forget about the money. Just focus on working on the relationship with your dad.

Maybe if it works you'll have a good relationship AND money. You might have neither but if you go to him where he is at perhaps it will help. Also, I'm not suggesting in any way that you suck up to him or kiss his ass or do this in a phony way. And if the guy is just so difficult to deal with that he won't even think about working on this or if he starts trying to manipulate you over this then just give up and hope something changes on his part.

Don't let him boss you around or rule you, but see if you can make it into a team project instead of an "I have power over you" project that only he controls.

Good luck.

[Phil_Stein]

A bunch of comments:

1) You're still fairly young - age 24, IIUC. Even if your relationship with your dad is poor now, don't write it off for the rest of your (or his) life.

2) It sounds like your parents are probably divorced. You're living with your mom. It's possible (though not certain from your description) that your mom has hard feelings towards your dad (which may or may not be deserved). In any case, it's also possible that those hard feelings have bled into your own relationship with your dad. I know this is a lot of supposition and I may be way off base, but think about it.

3) I doubt we're getting the full story here - this is probably a complex relationship thing, with money thrown in to the mix to make it a little murkier. Spoofy's advice seems pretty good - talk to your dad if possible. If you don't feel comfortable having that kind of conversation 1 on 1, perhaps there is a trusted 3rd party who is fairly neutral who could help? A minister, counselor, or even an old family friend (who hasn't come down strongly on anybody's side).

As for the house:

4) Renting a house/apartment is not throwing money away. It is paying for a service.

Buying a house can be viewed as part investment, part contracting for a service (i.e. you're locking in extended rentals of the house for your purchase price). When you buy a house to live in, you are "throwing away" your money sort of like renting an apartment, but in this case, you're "throwing away" the rental value of the house (by living in it yourself instead of renting it out to tenants). One way or another, you are consuming something of value (the opportunity cost of a house/apartment).

But a house purchase is more complex. Yes, there is an investment component to it. The value of the house could go up or down. You could end up paying much more or less than renting a comparable apartment.

There are some other things - owning a house generally involves assuming a greater responsibility for small maintenance and such. You may or may not like that. It also gives you a fringe benefit which I like - the ability to customize things how you please and feel a sense of pride of ownership. It's hard to quantify the cost/value of these things.

Have you ever lived on your own? (at college perhaps?) Did you live truly on your own or with roommates? In a dorm or an apartment? Buying a house is a big step. If you haven't lived on your own before, would it be so bad to rent an apartment (or a rental house) for a year or so to get a taste for it? It might help you refine what you'd be looking for in a house, as well.

BTW I did buy my first piece of property (actually a 4-flat, not a conventional house) at around age 24. I bought another 4-flat a bit later. (4 flats in South St. Louis were pretty cheap at the time.) But my life didn't go quite like I'd thought it would, and I ended up selling both not too long after, at a loss... (Then, with my wife, bought a single family house, where we live today.)

[0racle]

Yes my parents are divorced and I was in 4th grade when it happened. We lived with my dad growing up and his girlfriend. I lived with him until my senior year. Growing up I just never could relate to him, nor him to me. I have two younger brothers who get along with him just fine. They agree he is overbearing most of the time, but they have stuff in common with him, and I don't. I have over the years since I left his house gotten closer to him and most of it is because my mom begs me to have a better relationship with him. She hates that I don't really like my father. It's just times where the money or other decisions in my life come into play where we fight and argue. I think what spoofychop suggested is probably my best route. I'm just a different person than he wanted me to be and I don't think he knows how to react. I know I'm not a pyschologist or anything(although I'm going to school to become a counselor), but I tend to think that the root of it is that I never really cared about money, and his life revolved around money. I don't care if I make any with my career, and he hates that because he thinks that to prove your successful in life you have to have money. He's shot down alot of my dreams growing up because they wouldn't make me any money. And being a full time counselor really won't make me a lot of money, and he hates that because its not where he saw my future going. He hasn't straight up told me these things but I'm thinking I'm reading him right in this situation. I really want to like and love my father, but sometimes its hard. I know really deep for a forum right, but I've never worried about being out and open with people. I just thought I'd ask you guys what you all thought and thank you for the advice. Keep throwing it out there if you think there's more to add. It's much appreciated.

[John Merva]

Yes my parents are divorced and I was in 4th grade when it happened. We lived with my dad growing up and his girlfriend. I lived with him until my senior year. Growing up I just never could relate to him, nor him to me. I have two younger brothers who get along with him just fine. They agree he is overbearing most of the time, but they have stuff in common with him, and I don't. I have over the years since I left his house gotten closer to him and most of it is because my mom begs me to have a better relationship with him. She hates that I don't really like my father. It's just times where the money or other decisions in my life come into play where we fight and argue. I think what spoofychop suggested is probably my best route. I'm just a different person than he wanted me to be and I don't think he knows how to react. I know I'm not a pyschologist or anything(although I'm going to school to become a counselor), but I tend to think that the root of it is that I never really cared about money, and his life revolved around money. I don't care if I make any with my career, and he hates that because he thinks that to prove your successful in life you have to have money. He's shot down alot of my dreams growing up because they wouldn't make me any money. And being a full time counselor really won't make me a lot of money, and he hates that because its not where he saw my future going. He hasn't straight up told me these things but I'm thinking I'm reading him right in this situation. I really want to like and love my father, but sometimes its hard. I know really deep for a forum right, but I've never worried about being out and open with people. I just thought I'd ask you guys what you all thought and thank you for the advice. Keep throwing it out there if you think there's more to add. It's much appreciated.

Just to add to others, but try to talk to him.
If you can, try and provide some sort of written evidence, write out your monthly expenses and your balance sheet, if you will. Show him that you know what you are getting into and that you are prepared for and planning for it.

I very well understand the parent issue. Good luck and really hope all goes well for you. Always remember as well, there will always be more houses, it's not the end of the world if you don't get this one. Bide your time and keep working it. Good luck man.

[Reldan]

I'm 25 and have been living on my own for 8 years now - 2 years in a college dorm situation, 3 years in an apartment, and 3 more years living in rented houses.

In another couple months my fiancee and I will be buying a house. I'm kinda scared, but also eager. I think we're up to the challenges, as we have each other, and both of us have had years of experience with taking care of ourselves.

However at 24 and flying solo, with no living-alone experience? I'd be hesitant. The potential to "save" yourself the cost of rent makes some sense, but if it doesn't work out for whatever reason you're going to take a loss.

Moving out of your mom's house is a good move. Buying a house as your first solo experiment? Not so much.

[Sebmojo]

There's some really good advice in this thread, Oracle. I'd add that you shouldn't worry too much about missing a great deal on a house - another one will always come along.

[stusser]

Well it depends where he's located exactly, but I dunno how much substantially worse Florida's market can actually get. They have literally tens of thousands of mcmansions sitting vacant. Maybe if they suffer through biblical plagues like toads, locusts, rain of blood, slaughter of the firstborn, multiple hurricanes, that kind of thing. I guess we'll see. I certainly don't see it going up any time soon.

[Mookee]

Basically, the down payment leaves me about 2 or 3 thousand dollars short of what the house itself costs.

Wow, that changes things. That means you could own the house free and clear very soon, which is a huge, HUGE deal especially since you're in your mid-twenties. Some people don't accomplish that until very late in life, if ever. There is a valid argument for owning vs. renting, but not when your mortgage is only going to be 3k.

That also means it's a pretty substantial amount of money which makes me wonder if your pops has some other motive here.

I say go after your Grandmother and get her on your side.

[WarrenM]

There's some really good advice in this thread, Oracle. I'd add that you shouldn't worry too much about missing a great deal on a house - another one will always come along.
This is great advice to keep in mind. There will always be a house to buy, there will always be a car to buy, etc. You never HAVE to buy the one that's currently in front of you. There will always be another just around the corner.

[0racle]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm taking the talking to him route. Seeing what that does. I really do agree with you guys that houses come and go. I guess it just gets aggravating to have it happen more than once and I'm sure it'll happen again. You guys were very helpful and thankfully noone bashed anyone or anything. It was very mature and open discussion. I very much thank everyone who gave advice.

[Gordon Cameron]

skip that bullshit apartment phase

As someone who lives in LA, I find this hilarious.