Anyone play Europa Universalis 2?

[balut]

I just picked this up the other day, because I remembered hearing good things about it awhile back and was itching for a new PC title.

So far I've been playing the Age of Mercantilism campaign as Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, and seem to be holding my own, although Spain is just vastly dominant, points-wise. The game seems incredibly deep, and I love the balancing act between domestic/economic/military production, as well as the affects of religion and stability. And, with all the established casus belli between Sweden and its neighbors, Russia, Poland, Denmark, Austria, Spain, etc. finding a country to legitimately declare war against is not a problem.

Unfortunately, I went to check the Gamefaqs message boards to see if there are any insights I should know regarding the game, and there are maybe 5 posts total for Europa Universalis 1, and no posts at all for Europa Universalis 2.

Has anyone around here played this game, and if so, what are some tips or strategies you'd suggest?

- Balut

[Troy S Goodfellow]

For tips, go to the community forums at the game's web site. www.europa-universalis.com - probably the most complete game forum regarding strategies, policies, disagreements, etc.

I play this game A LOT - easily my favorite strategy game since Civ 2. Strategies largely depend upon which country you are playing and what era you are in. But some basic tips:

1. Only wage war with clear goals in mind. Wars can easily turn into a major drain on your economy, and bunch of bad random events while in a war can cause major headaches. So fight with a short term plan so that war exhaustion doesn't kick in.

2. Trade maps if you have +195 relations with an explorer country or foreign power that knows places you don't. Colonies and trading posts bring in major cash in put in the right place.

3. Since the latest patch, avoid making too many royal marriages with countries you fight a lot. (e.g. Sweden should be careful about simultaneous marriages with Denmark and Russia). Under the new patch, war with married countries is a stability hit for the declaring power.

4. Cavalry are generally superior until the late 17th century, so build your armies around them. Of course, quantity has a quality all its own.

5. The domestic policy sliders (changeable every ten years) only have minimal impacts in the short run, but in the long term they dramatically change the face of your country.

6. Try not to fight in snow-covered territories, especially if the army is already under supplied. This is the fastest way to lose large armies.

7. By hovering the pointer over an enemy army, you can get an idea of its size and whether or not it is led by an historical commander (Gustavus Adolphus, Napoleon, Wellington, etc.) Avoid fighting historical commanders if possible, especially with armies led by default generals.

8. Though conversion of heretic provinces can get expensive, in the long run (over a hundred year period) they are worth it. It makes it much cheaper to regain stability if all provinces are the state religion.

9. If you don't have a center of trade, plan the quickest way to get one. The tarrifff income is significant and it will cheaper to place merchants.

10. Even if your country isn't doning anything at the moment, pay very close attention to your neighbors. If they start doing things like cancelling military access or warning neighbors, a war is likely imminent - but not certain.

[Jason McCullough]

Hmm, I think I'll try it out again; I can't remember what turned me off on the game last time.

[Because They Are Hirsute]

Can anyone recommend worthwhile mods for EU2? I've scanned their forum, which contains a number of mods, but they are all over the place and I don't want to waste time.

Any experiences?

[dinsdale]

My one addition to TSG's excellent advice would be: patience

If you expand too quickly you'll soon have most of your neighbours attacking you, and while they can be fended off, the constant drain on your treasury and internal revolts can tear you up from the inside.

Learn how the "badboy" increase/decrease is handled and this will help you pace yourself.

[SteveS]

I just dusted EU2 off myself. DOM2 is fun, but the history aspect of EU2 makes it a classic.

The biggest tip is to manage your "badboy" rating. Watch your reputation, when it gets to tarnished, or worse, lay low for a few decades. Badboy goes up when you take territory and make war withour cause. You take a big hit if you annex entire countries through war. If you have leaders with good diplomatic skill (Elizibeth I for England for example) it is much better to make vassels and diplo-annex.

Be carefull what territory you are taking. Not being of the state religion gives you a -30% on income from the territory. Incompatable culture gives another -30%. No land connection to you capital gives another ~10%. Check the base tax value as well. As Sweden, taking a 1 tax value Turkish-Sunni territory will net you nothing. Since the requirements for tech advancement scales with the number of territories you own, the goal is to get a max average income. This is why a one territory country with a COT advances in tech so fast while a big country with lots of fish and wool (like Hungary) falls behind in tech.

As others have said, go to war only with specific goals in mind. Make peace either when you get the job done or it is clear you won't. Dragging wars out for a decade will kill your economy. Don't be afraid to pay off the alliance leader if you are losing. You won't win every war.

[Jakub]

Oh, and don't bother with the Centralization domestic policy until you've set the others how you like. There are waaaaay too many anti-centralization events to bother.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Oh, and don't bother with the Centralization domestic policy until you've set the others how you like. There are waaaaay too many anti-centralization events to bother.

The latest patches makes civil war more common in a decentralized country, so I try to at least keep it in the middle until the end game, when I push towards centralization seriously. Civil war is still pretty rare (unless driven by events) but can be a real game breaker. If you can keep positive stability you'll be OK, but that can be a chore at times.

Troy

[olaf]

I tried so hard to get into this game but never could.

olaf

[Clark]

I never tried EU2, because, while I loved the mechanics of EU1, the AI was so horrible it was never a challenge. Is the AI in EU2 any better?

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I never tried EU2, because, while I loved the mechanics of EU1, the AI was so horrible it was never a challenge. Is the AI in EU2 any better?

Not much better. Each patch balances things a little more, but the AI is still prone to making stupid little mistakes.

Troy

[Nick Walter]

I never tried EU2, because, while I loved the mechanics of EU1, the AI was so horrible it was never a challenge. Is the AI in EU2 any better?

Not much better. Each patch balances things a little more, but the AI is still prone to making stupid little mistakes.

Troy

I don't mind the EU2 AI, because in EU2 I feel like I'm playing against the rules not the other countries. The A/I could skip every turn and it would still be impossible to really expand quickly because of the all the problems that come with rapid expansion in EU2. It's not like Moo2 or Civ2 where the AI limitations allow a cakewalk victory for an aggressive expansionist player.

[Tom Chick]

I don't mind the EU2 AI, because in EU2 I feel like I'm playing against the rules not the other countries.

Very astute comment, Nick! I recently reviewed Crusader Kings and sort of came to the same conclusion. Your opponent isn't necessarily the other countries, but the complexity and challenge of running your own country. Or, in the case of Crusader Kings, your own dynasty.

-Tom

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I don't mind the EU2 AI, because in EU2 I feel like I'm playing against the rules not the other countries.

Very astute comment, Nick! I recently reviewed Crusader Kings and sort of came to the same conclusion. Your opponent isn't necessarily the other countries, but the complexity and challenge of running your own country. Or, in the case of Crusader Kings, your own dynasty.

-Tom

I agree completely. Crusader Kings is, IMO, Paradox's best game since EU2. It's got a lot of problems (many rooted in poor AI), but like EU it keeps you focused on interesting things throughout.

Troy

[Xemu]

Gamestop lists a 8/31/04 release date for Crusader Kings, and both EBWorld and GoGamer don't even have entries for it. Is it already out or are you guys talking about previous copies?

This thread does make me want to dust off EU2 again, which I never got past the interface barrier on before. Maybe with my failed Victoria experience and semi-successful HOI experience I'll have a prayer...

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Gamestop lists a 8/31/04 release date for Crusader Kings, and both EBWorld and GoGamer don't even have entries for it. Is it already out or are you guys talking about previous copies?

It was out in Europe a while ago, but the NA release date is supposed to be late June. I'm working from a review copy, but you can order it direct from Paradox now if you can't wait.

Troy

[dinsdale]

I never tried EU2, because, while I loved the mechanics of EU1, the AI was so horrible it was never a challenge. Is the AI in EU2 any better?

The AI is no better, but the number of cheats added to the AI make it appear competent.

----------------

I couldn't disagree more about CK's AI. While I'm pleased that Paradox might get a decent review out of Tom, the "play within yourself" aspect is far worse than EU and ultimately destroys any replayability. Paradox are working on another patch and this is supposed to be one of the main areas being fixed.

BTW anyone trying to get hold of the game might want to order it direct from Paradox here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=260

It takes on average between 1 and 2 weeks to reach the US, I was lucky and received delivery within 5 days. Much easier than hunting it down in stores.

[Peter Frazier]

Maybe with my failed Victoria experience and semi-successful HOI experience I'll have a prayer...

While we're on a roll talking about Paradox games, is Victoria worth it now? I remember it came out with its own gameplay/balance issues which were altered but not fixed by patches.

[dinsdale]

Maybe with my failed Victoria experience and semi-successful HOI experience I'll have a prayer...

While we're on a roll talking about Paradox games, is Victoria worth it now? I remember it came out with its own gameplay/balance issues which were altered but not fixed by patches.

Depends on what you'd consider balanced and fixed. There have been some flattering reports on the Pdox boards, but 1.03b hasn't done it for me yet. I'm waiting until 1-2 more patches before resuming, but lots of people appear happy with it. I'd say give it a try and see what you think.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Maybe with my failed Victoria experience and semi-successful HOI experience I'll have a prayer...

While we're on a roll talking about Paradox games, is Victoria worth it now? I remember it came out with its own gameplay/balance issues which were altered but not fixed by patches.

It can be a rewarding game if you have the time to commit to it. The economy is still a maze of menus and buttons, and it is still very difficult to keep your people rolling in the consumer goods they need. The resistance fighters have been toned down, making wars less of a nuisance, and there have been little tweaks here and there to make it more satisfactory. I still love the political model, though I wish there was more to make countries more distinct.

Balance was never much of an issue with me; the gameplay and interface was another issue altogether.

I like much of what is in Victoria, but ultimately it suffers from just having too much in it. A complex game doesn't have to be complicated, but Victoria is.

If you have the patience to get into it, Victoria might be for you. At the moment, though, I think it is the least successful of the big four strategy games. Hearts of Iron has been patched into a very good game (though not always interesting), EU2 was a classic out of the box, and Crusader Kings has a lot to recommend it. Victoria is not a bad game by any means, but it is a real challenge to understand, even for people like me who've played all these games. It still has a pretty high frustration factor.

Troy

[Lum]

Hearts of Iron I think is an excellent argument for why WW2 doesn't work with the EU2 engine.

If you're looking for an EU2 mod (the original question) the major one is the Event Exchange Project (EEP) which adds a ton of events to the game and is pretty much the de-facto modded version since it borged all the other major E2 mods. Link: http://home.broadpark.no/~havmoe/EU/EEP.htm

Crusader Kings is great. The AI is pretty weak but it certainly has enough play value while you wait on the inevitable series of patches. My writeup on it: http://www.brokentoys.org/2004/04/manipulating-consanguinity-for-fun-and.php

[Nick Walter]

Hearts of Iron I think is an excellent argument for why WW2 doesn't work with the EU2 engine.


The EU engine is great for sandbox-style empire building play. History buffs can play out some fascinating what-ifs using the EU engine. The combat portion of the EU engine was adequate, but not very compelling.

Trying to simulate WW2 plays against the strengths of the EU engine. Not enough enough time-frame for empire building, lots and lots of not-very-interesting combat.

[pg]

i've been playing this eu2 mod a bit lately, the mongol empire scenario -
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/kw.vandenheuvel/Mongol_Empire_03.exe
http://perso.wanadoo.es/oersted/EU2/Mongol_Empire_031b.exe

install it on a clean eu2 1.08. it's still being finished afaik but it's been pretty stable as i've played it(as stable as eu2 ever is). that's not to say it doesn't have a lot of events or new stuff but i've seen at least one bug(which i just clicked ignore when loading my save and it worked fine).

i've only played as the mongols so far but some of the other countries look really interesting. the shot below was from my game as the mongols around 1220. this mod also has a few surprises you might not expect.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3489/mongol_panorama.jpg

it might be really interesting to play a country which will have to stand up the mongols as they are pretty much insanely powerful(due to their events/manpower/generals/economy).

[Brian Rucker]

Holy crap. Crusader Kings looks pretty freakin' amazing. I've been wanting a real dynastic/feudal strategy game for some time. Medieval: Total War fit the bill a wee little bit but didn't really get into the internal politics of the era, except in very broad strokes, that gave it its actual character. Romance of The Three Kingdoms VIII has the internal politics of personalities and, the PC version not in English, has elements like marraige and child rearing (or so I'm told).

But nothing's really captured the sense of bloodlines, heirs, personalities, intrigues, and juggling wilful vassals with their own agendas along with one's duty to one's lord. I found a cool review on Strategy Gaming Online, picked at random after reading this thread, that just has my tongue hanging out. EU2 is an amazingly fun game and a seriously retooled engine that does the feudal era right..wow. How did I miss this one? Possibly because of the lukewarm receptions of Victoria and Hearts of Iron I'd just started tuning it out.

Has anyone played Galilea's Pax Romana? Evidently it's a pretty intense and historically accurate modelling of the political, economic and military of the Roman Republic. Internal and external. The lead designer here is evidently the original designer of the Europa Universalis boardgame. I haven't popped it in yet as I was waiting on a patch, hear it's got some issues, but it does look like it's got potential. The forums when I read them seemed full of fans who loved the gameplay but wanted the problems fixed.

[Lum]

wow. How did I miss this one?

Because it's not out in North America yet. You have to order it directly from the developer.

[Brian Rucker]

Well, I guess I got ahead of myself and placed an order with Chips and Bits. I couldn't even find a listing for it on EB Games. Game Stop didn't have it coming out for some time and didn't seem to have an online ordering feature (that I could tell). On Amazon, for some reason, it's listed as discontinued or no longer in stock.

And do we really need that huge ass map in this thread? :)

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Has anyone played Galilea's Pax Romana? Evidently it's a pretty intense and historically accurate modelling of the political, economic and military of the Roman Republic. Internal and external. The lead designer here is evidently the original designer of the Europa Universalis boardgame. I haven't popped it in yet as I was waiting on a patch, hear it's got some issues, but it does look like it's got potential. The forums when I read them seemed full of fans who loved the gameplay but wanted the problems fixed.

Pax Romana is mostly unfulfilled promise. Though the political part is quite good, the strategic end is a real mess. Lots of bugs, bizarre AI decisions, lack of any useful diplomacy, etc.

A new patch was promised for May, but people are still waiting.

Troy

[Rod Humble]

Remember you can pick ANY nation to play in EUII by clicking on the flags at game start.

Playing the grand campaign as a small indonesian island nation is a LOT of fun. (For me anyhow)

[Tom Chick]

Ack, there goes the thread's readability!

I should have a review up on Gamespy before too long.
I don't think I'm jumping the gun to say overall I give
Crusder Kings a thumbs up. I think guys like Brian and
Jason Lutes will definitely dig it.

-Tom

[dinsdale]

The review is up

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/crusader-kings/521613p2.html

There's a thread started on it at Paradox

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150125

[Clark]

The AI is no better, but the number of cheats added to the AI make it appear competent.

I don't care how the AI does it - great coding or massive cheating - I just expect some sort of challenge on the highest difficulty setting. When I'm Russia and I control most of Europe, all of the Middle East, and most of North and South America - what's the point? The SS above doesn't give me much hope.

Medieval Total War - now that was difficult.

[Lum]

To be fair the SS above is actually somewhat historically accurate. In the late 1200s the Mongols did own all that they could survey.

[Because They Are Hirsute]

If you're looking for an EU2 mod (the original question) the major one is the Event Exchange Project (EEP) which adds a ton of events to the game and is pretty much the de-facto modded version since it borged all the other major E2 mods.

It looks like the makers of EEP have merged their kit with the Alternate Grand Campaign mod. So far I've played about 70 years into the "AGCEEP" mod as Sweden. I can't really comment yet, as it's still so early, but the makers say this mod does a better job of making the game dynamic, so the events follow from each other, rather than appearing as checkpoints that become increasingly nonsensical as your game diverges from real history.

The forum that contains the mod is here (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=82).

I also tried to use the Modern Day Scenario. It looked really sexy, but apparently has been a dead beta for over a year. I get CTDs within the first game year. You can get it here (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=113), but to even make it start you have to hunt down the updated "unlimited time patch" here. (http://www.geocities.com/moctezumaiam/EU2.html) Also, this mod basically requires a second install of EU2 on your hd, unlike AGCEEP. If anybody else bothers to install it and make it work, let me know.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

I don't care how the AI does it - great coding or massive cheating - I just expect some sort of challenge on the highest difficulty setting. When I'm Russia and I control most of Europe, all of the Middle East, and most of North and South America - what's the point? The SS above doesn't give me much hope.

Medieval Total War - now that was difficult.

Really? I've found EU2 to be much more difficult challenge-wise than MTW (without any AI mods, at least), but I haven't played it as much.

[Mike Hussey]

I think a lot of the challenges in EU2 depends on who you play as and when. England in the 1492 scenario is just as easy as in the original. One of the historic losers, Poland say, is probably more difficult.

[Xemu]

This thread inspired me to reinstall EU2, and I'm much more into it this time around. Maybe experience on other Paradox titles has finally gotten me over the curve but it seems much better documented than, say, Victoria. Also playing some easier scenarios is making it a lot easier to manage.

[Nick Walter]

I think a lot of the challenges in EU2 depends on who you play as and when. England in the 1492 scenario is just as easy as in the original. One of the historic losers, Poland say, is probably more difficult.

That's what I love about EU2. The mechanics are good enough that they can put nations in their historical positions and let the scenarios play out and end up with a reasonably good analogue of what really happened. I really enjoyed that they didn't have to "cheat" to get outcomes that were historically plausible. That made it all the more satisfying to take someone like the Aztecs and expand them into a massive world power.

[NuclearWinter]

A huge patch has just been released for Crusader Kings:

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150519

New alliance features, substantial AI improvements and lots of other stuff. Just a heads up for those playing the game.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

A huge patch has just been released for Crusader Kings:

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150519

New alliance features, substantial AI improvements and lots of other stuff. Just a heads up for those playing the game.

Wow. This is a major patch. Alliances, truces, gifts, reworking the whole marriage system.

Thanks for the heads up.

Troy

[Lum]

<Lum> adds, um, diplomacy, apparently
<Lum> alliances and stuff
<Stab|Work> hotness
<Lum> - Pillaging now gives the effect to the CONTROLLER of the province, not the owner.
<Lum> Woot, pillage fixed!
<Lum> RAAAIDING PARTY!
<Stab|Work> You download the AI build fix Lum?
<Lum> no
<Lum> was waiting for 1.03
<Lum> now I know what I'm doing this weekend!
<Lum> I am such a geek.