at the end of my rope

[Rimbo]

since i have a nasty and well-documented habit of going batshit insane on the boards when i am under stress or tired, i just thought i'd give a little heads-up to the board that now might be a good time to put me on Ignore

[Tyjenks]

Well, I stay off the boards in those times and just drink more. You could go that route.

[Stroker Ace]

Vote to stake Rimbo.

[Lorini]

Get some sleep? Just a small suggestion:)

[quatoria]

Oh shit, you mean I should have waited until just now?

[stusser]

Have you tried going out into the woods, building a giant bonfire, stripping down, rubbing your naked body with crisco until you gleam in the firelight, dancing like a maniac around the towering inferno, and howling at the moon?

Or just taking a long, hot shower, lying down on the couch, jerking off a lot, and falling asleep with your hand glued to your crotch?

[Glenn]

Have you tried going out into the woods, building a giant bonfire, stripping down, rubbing your naked body with crisco until you gleam in the firelight, dancing like a maniac around the towering inferno, and howling at the moon?Sounds like you're encouraging him to turn himself into a rotisserie.

[Pogo]

Boards like this need some batshit to go along with the... whatever else it is that goes on here.

[Aeon221]

Have you tried going out into the woods, building a giant bonfire, stripping down, rubbing your naked body with crisco until you gleam in the firelight, dancing like a maniac around the towering inferno, and howling at the moon?

Or just taking a long, hot shower, lying down on the couch, jerking off a lot, and falling asleep with your hand glued to your crotch?

Some time ago, Rimbo mentioned that when he posts in all lower caps one of his hands is... busy.

[madkevin]

Wait a minute... lower caps... rope...

Great. He's discovered auto-asphyxiation.

[TomChick]

Have you tried going out into the woods, building a giant bonfire, stripping down, rubbing your naked body with crisco until you gleam in the firelight, dancing like a maniac around the towering inferno, and howling at the moon?

I don't understand the part about the Crisco. Would margarine or non-stick spray work? Is there a website where I can find out more about this?

-Tom

[NoWayJose]

Have you tried going out into the woods, building a giant bonfire, stripping down, rubbing your naked body with crisco until you gleam in the firelight, dancing like a maniac around the towering inferno, and howling at the moon?

Or just taking a long, hot shower, lying down on the couch, jerking off a lot, and falling asleep with your hand glued to your crotch?
Is anyone else wondering about stusser fantasizing about Rimbo in two scenarios, in one of which he's naked, and in the other he's jerking off?

[Brian Rubin]

since i have a nasty and well-documented habit of going batshit insane on the boards when i am under stress or tired, i just thought i'd give a little heads-up to the board that now might be a good time to put me on Ignore
Aawww, what's wrong buddy? Have you considered therapy?

[stusser]

Crisco is shelf-stable and odorless while non-stick spray tends to get sticky and tacky due to emulsifiers and stabilizers added by the manufacturor. Margarine could indeed work as an alternative, but it goes rancid when heated and its trans-fatty acids degenerate. Also, the fake butter smell could attract ants. Of course I would never suggest eating hydrogenated vegetable oils due to the unhealthy aforementioned trans-fats contained therein, but they shine up a pudgy untanned geek like nothing else. That's why I didn't originally suggest using a polyunsaturated neutral vegetable oil like grapeseed, light olive, or corn oil. While they are also shelf stable, much healthier to consume, and don't have the odor issues, their viscosity is simply too thin and when heated would drip off his sculpted nude form, destroying belly and underarm flap definition, rendering the skin dull, not reflecting the moon or the roaring bonfire, and totally destroying the artistic effect I was going for.

[Sebmojo]

The sympathy, it is thick like a fog.

Basic human decency obliges me to say 'I hope you get through ok'

[Rimbo]

stusser, you know way, way, way too much about this

i actually, without having read it, went the Tyjenks route... almost all of a bottle of Chimay blue label. I shared a wee bit with one of my fellow board of directors members, who commented, "Wow, it's beer, and i don't hate it." well duh, it's ale, not beer, and it's damned good

also, good news, my son finally seems to be recovering from whatever mystery disease he's had since Friday night, so that is a happy thought

I'm not looking forward to seeing my email tomorrow though. I was a bit ... uh... brusque with another board of directors person who was being nasty to me, so I bit back. Hard

fortunately other board of directors members seem to be okay. i don't think it's entirely because I'm the lone male on the board under age 40 or whatever (at least i think G's over 40) and the rest are female near or at retirement age

yes, i think it is better to be drunk and happy than tired and frustrated. I am sitting here typing this naked with my gut hanging out. i don't care how nasty it looks, the girlfriend/wife/whatever can enjoy the view or ignore it as she so chooses, at least I'm swimming occasionally to do soemthing about it and now i'm rambling and getting too tired to check my spelling and grammer so I spell "soemthing" and "grammer" instead of "something" and "grammar"

odd how thinking about it allows me to do it correctly (took 2 tries to get "correctly" correctly)

YEAAARGH!

OK, everyone, what's your favorite bash.org quote?

[Rimbo]

OH YEAH! And reading books to my son before he went to bed in this state was a fun experience. Much laughter was had by both. I think Mom got irritated. Nanny did too. Fuck 'em, it was FUN. We were reading a Cars book with buttons that make sound effects, wait, I'll find amazon link... damn, can't find it, it's one of those books with the buttons on the side and you push 'em and they make various sounds whenever you see the right icon in the middle of the text. anyway, he'd pretend he couldn't find it and I'd wait, and act all irritated, and then we'd giggle and then we'd laugh and laugh and then we couldn't finish the book and then we'd finish and oh god, it was so much fun.

i love being a dad

[Rimbo]

doesnt' a drunk happy rimbo beat the shit out of an annoying flamewar-starting rimbo? i think so too

of course i'll probably be too embarrassed to show up here for the next week

you know that I only recently learned how to spell "embarrassed" correctly? I take great pride in spelling correctly. I lost a spelling bee in 6th grade to a 5th grader; the two of us went back and forth so long they dismissed the audience and we stayed until a few hours after school until she finally won. I couldn't spell "Chauffeur." Which is stupid, because "The Chauffeur" was, and still is, one of my favorite songs EVER (by Duran Duran. Seriously, this song is awesome.)

Like I said, drunk happy Rimbo is better than angry pissed off flamewar-starting insane rimbo, no?

[Pogo]

Are those the LeapFrog electronic books?

[Mordrak]

I think, it's-time-for-bed-Rimbo is probably the best Rimbo right now.

[Rimbo]

I think, it's-time-for-bed-Rimbo is probably the best Rimbo right now.

fuck off, man! ;)

actually you're right

[Brian Rubin]

Glad you're feeling better buddy! Now get some sleep and embrace the new day tomorrow! :)

[Morkilus]

The blue Chimay is awesome.

[MattKeil]

the girlfriend/wife/whatever

You mean you don't know?

[AndrewM]

Rimbo has been granted a new title "Lost 6th Grade Spelling Bee".

[Rimbo]

Rimbo has been granted a new title "Lost 6th Grade Spelling Bee on a word that was the title of the best Duran Duran song EVAR and his favorite song at the time".

fixed...

OH FUCK IT'S TOO LATE

[Rimbo]

the drunk time is almost over already!

too fucking soon

[Lazy Shiftless Bastard]

I am sitting here typing this naked with my gut hanging out. i don't care how nasty it looks, the girlfriend/wife/whatever can enjoy the view or ignore it as she so chooses,

image deleted

[Not One Of Us]

stusser, you know way, way, way too much about this

i actually, without having read it, went the Tyjenks route... almost all of a bottle of Chimay blue label. I shared a wee bit with one of my fellow board of directors members, who commented, "Wow, it's beer, and i don't hate it." well duh, it's ale, not beer, and it's damned good

also, good news, my son finally seems to be recovering from whatever mystery disease he's had since Friday night, so that is a happy thought

I'm not looking forward to seeing my email tomorrow though. I was a bit ... uh... brusque with another board of directors person who was being nasty to me, so I bit back. Hard

fortunately other board of directors members seem to be okay. i don't think it's entirely because I'm the lone male on the board under age 40 or whatever (at least i think G's over 40) and the rest are female near or at retirement age

yes, i think it is better to be drunk and happy than tired and frustrated. I am sitting here typing this naked with my gut hanging out. i don't care how nasty it looks, the girlfriend/wife/whatever can enjoy the view or ignore it as she so chooses, at least I'm swimming occasionally to do soemthing about it and now i'm rambling and getting too tired to check my spelling and grammer so I spell "soemthing" and "grammer" instead of "something" and "grammar"

odd how thinking about it allows me to do it correctly (took 2 tries to get "correctly" correctly)

YEAAARGH!

OK, everyone, what's your favorite bash.org quote?

OH YEAH! And reading books to my son before he went to bed in this state was a fun experience. Much laughter was had by both. I think Mom got irritated. Nanny did too. Fuck 'em, it was FUN. We were reading a Cars book with buttons that make sound effects, wait, I'll find amazon link... damn, can't find it, it's one of those books with the buttons on the side and you push 'em and they make various sounds whenever you see the right icon in the middle of the text. anyway, he'd pretend he couldn't find it and I'd wait, and act all irritated, and then we'd giggle and then we'd laugh and laugh and then we couldn't finish the book and then we'd finish and oh god, it was so much fun.

i love being a dad

doesnt' a drunk happy rimbo beat the shit out of an annoying flamewar-starting rimbo? i think so too

of course i'll probably be too embarrassed to show up here for the next week

you know that I only recently learned how to spell "embarrassed" correctly? I take great pride in spelling correctly. I lost a spelling bee in 6th grade to a 5th grader; the two of us went back and forth so long they dismissed the audience and we stayed until a few hours after school until she finally won. I couldn't spell "Chauffeur." Which is stupid, because "The Chauffeur" was, and still is, one of my favorite songs EVER (by Duran Duran. Seriously, this song is awesome.)

Like I said, drunk happy Rimbo is better than angry pissed off flamewar-starting insane rimbo, no?

Just to make sure they don't die..

[Brendan]

I'd just like to hijack this drunken raving thread title and say that I've gotten 6 hours of sleep in 48 hours, my baby by is struggling to latch, my wife is battling to express enough milk and did I mention the Guantanamo Bay stlye sleep depravation? (That shit is cruel and unusual.)

Also good luck with the hangover in the morning Rimbo.

[marxeil]

Yeah, babies are anoying. Mine got a bad case of reflux. Only he doesn't vomit the food so it took 2 weeks to figure why he's not eating and breathing badly.
Turns out after eating 20cc, it goes up with some stomach juices almost to the top of the esophagus/gullet(?). Then he can't get anything else in, the bile badly irritates the windpipe and lungs and makes it hard for him to breath.
The poor thing hardly slept or ate for a month. We ate but didn't sleep.

Glad to hear he's over it.

[Midnight Son]

Needs more grass fed beef!

[Rimbo]

stusser, you know way, way, way too much about this

i actually, without having read it, went the Tyjenks route... almost all of a bottle of Chimay blue label. I shared a wee bit with one of my fellow board of directors members, who commented, "Wow, it's beer, and i don't hate it." well duh, it's ale, not beer, and it's damned good

also, good news, my son finally seems to be recovering from whatever mystery disease he's had since Friday night, so that is a happy thought

I'm not looking forward to seeing my email tomorrow though. I was a bit ... uh... brusque with another board of directors person who was being nasty to me, so I bit back. Hard

fortunately other board of directors members seem to be okay. i don't think it's entirely because I'm the lone male on the board under age 40 or whatever (at least i think G's over 40) and the rest are female near or at retirement age

yes, i think it is better to be drunk and happy than tired and frustrated. I am sitting here typing this naked with my gut hanging out. i don't care how nasty it looks, the girlfriend/wife/whatever can enjoy the view or ignore it as she so chooses, at least I'm swimming occasionally to do soemthing about it and now i'm rambling and getting too tired to check my spelling and grammer so I spell "soemthing" and "grammer" instead of "something" and "grammar"

odd how thinking about it allows me to do it correctly (took 2 tries to get "correctly" correctly)

YEAAARGH!

OK, everyone, what's your favorite bash.org quote?

<sober>Great God in Heaven.</sober>

[Brian Rubin]

<sober>Great God in Heaven.</sober>
Bwahahhahahah! :)

[Rimbo]

image deleted (http://ericcotter.com/blog/images/fat20man20at20computer.jpg)<---NSFW in case the "Edited by TomChick" didn't give it away

http://www.nndb.com/people/237/000024165/candy4-sized.jpg

[Rimbo]

Also good luck with the hangover in the morning Rimbo.

No problems, although snoring did chase the g/w/w outta the room. Good luck with the baby, man.

[Rimbo]

Bwahahhahahah! :)

Other people wake up with markings on their face.

<-- I get a title.

I came back here to try and figure out how I got the title.

I liked myself better before I knew.




Egad.

[Siren]

Rimbo, your postings last night brightened up an otherwise stressful evening. I appreciated them.

[Podunk]

The blue Chimay is awesome.

Man, ain't that the motherfuckin' truth.

[Rimbo]

Man, ain't that the motherfuckin' truth.

You truly are a man of class and taste.

[Kunikos]

Rimbo has been granted a new title "Lost 6th Grade Spelling Bee".

WOAH SHNYKIES

Is this the first custom title for a non-Entity?

[Lh'owon]

I think jpinard (sp?) has "Keeper of the Frop Bog"

[AaronSofaer]

I approve of this thread.

[EvilIdler]

OK, everyone, what's your favorite bash.org quote?

I'll pick some of your best and submit them :)

[madkevin]

Rimbo, your postings last night brightened up an otherwise stressful evening. I appreciated them.

True happiness can only come upon the deep, spiritual contemplation of somebody else's misery.

[Bahimiron]

I like the deleted image.

I never knew George R R Martin wrote in the nude.

[Lunch of Kong]

Blue label is grand reserve, right? I'm a sipper, and I sip that like cognac.

[Lazy Shiftless Bastard]

I like the deleted image.

I never knew George R R Martin wrote in the nude.

This makes me giggle uncontrollably. Until I realize that my post was edited by Tom, and thus a spot on the banning registry can't be far behind!

[Joel]

Ale is beer.

[Qessinge]

stusser, you know way, way, way too much about this

i'm pretty sure stusser gave the exact same crisco advice to somebody a few months ago in a thread about the mortgage crisis / housing meltdown...

[RepoMan]

And you remembered it. The Crisco guilt is spreading by association. Rather like the Crisco itself.

[Rimbo]

By the way, I want to give my heartfelt thanks to those who expressed sincere concerns, and also to the rest of you smartasses for the big smiles your responses have given me all day.

[Machfive]

Dude, you got a custom title out of this thread. I'd say it was totally worth it.

Maybe I need to have a meltdown so I can finally get "Side Suto Black Belt" or something.

[Tyjenks]

By the way, I want to give my heartfelt thanks to those who expressed sincere concerns, and also to the rest of you smartasses for the big smiles your responses have given me all day.
Told you drinking cured all ills. At least, that is what my therapist who treated me for depression said. And when I say therapist, I mean the voice in my head. I call him my therapist.

[jwtheiv]

Yeah, babies are anoying. Mine got a bad case of reflux. Only he doesn't vomit the food so it took 2 weeks to figure why he's not eating and breathing badly.
Turns out after eating 20cc, it goes up with some stomach juices almost to the top of the esophagus/gullet(?). Then he can't get anything else in, the bile badly irritates the windpipe and lungs and makes it hard for him to breath.
The poor thing hardly slept or ate for a month. We ate but didn't sleep.

Glad to hear he's over it.

Worst I had was that the bug lost too much weight after coming home from the hospital so we had to spend the better part of a week doing a rigid every two hour schedule involving my wife breast-feeding and me running a small tube along the nipple to supplement the breastmilk with formula.

Now that we're hitting the two month mark, my wife is slowly switching over to more formula and less breastmilk since she's not producing enough and it's just too frustrating for all parties involved.

[ElGuapo]

I've gotten 6 hours of sleep in 48 hours, my baby by is struggling to latch, my wife is battling to express enough milk and did I mention the Guantanamo Bay stlye sleep depravation? (That shit is cruel and unusual.)



... he doesn't vomit the food so it took 2 weeks to figure why he's not eating and breathing badly.
Turns out after eating 20cc, it goes up with some stomach juices almost to the top of the esophagus/gullet(?). Then he can't get anything else in, the bile badly irritates the windpipe and lungs and makes it hard for him to breath.


... so we had to spend the better part of a week doing a rigid every two hour schedule involving my wife breast-feeding and me running a small tube along the nipple to supplement the breastmilk with formula.

This is a bizarre, strange world I know nothing about and am not sure I ever want to enter ... legitimately.

[madkevin]

I love threads like these, because it reminds me why I will never, ever, ever, ever have children.

[Rward]

I'd just like to hijack this drunken raving thread title and say that I've gotten 6 hours of sleep in 48 hours, my baby by is struggling to latch, my wife is battling to express enough milk and did I mention the Guantanamo Bay stlye sleep depravation? (That shit is cruel and unusual.)

Also good luck with the hangover in the morning Rimbo.

I've been wondering where you were.
Hope it all comes right and you all pull through..

[hong]

Google ad: "I cured my acid reflux". Ha ha ha.

[Stroker Ace]

I love threads like these, because it reminds me why I will never, ever, ever, ever have children.Sissy!

[Tyjenks]

I love threads like these, because it reminds me why I will never, ever, ever, ever have children.

That was my view for a long while. No kids until I was 31 and had been married for 5 years. Now, they are easily the best thing I have done with my life. Not saying you have to have kids in order to have a fulfilling life, just saying personally, I would have little to show for my 38 years on the planet at this point otherwise.

[RickH]

That was my view for a long while. No kids until I was 31 and had been married for 5 years. Now, they are easily the best thing I have done with my life. Not saying you have to have kids in order to have a fulfilling life, just saying personally, I would have little to show for my 38 years on the planet at this point otherwise.

Life is always better when you share it.

[Fargull]

Yeah, babies are anoying. Mine got a bad case of reflux. Only he doesn't vomit the food so it took 2 weeks to figure why he's not eating and breathing badly.
Turns out after eating 20cc, it goes up with some stomach juices almost to the top of the esophagus/gullet(?). Then he can't get anything else in, the bile badly irritates the windpipe and lungs and makes it hard for him to breath.
The poor thing hardly slept or ate for a month. We ate but didn't sleep.

Glad to hear he's over it.

Marxeil,

My son had the same issue. We spent two months of hell after he was born in 2000, but ended up going to a specialist who set him up with a proscription to Pirlosec and 24 hrs later and a week on the meds he was cured. To this day he will still occassionaly get what I think of as heart burn, but that is maybe one meal every six months or so.

Fargull

[madkevin]

Life is always better when you share it.

I do share it. I share it with my wife, my Xbox, my soon-to-be-born dog, and Satan. Not necessarily in that order.

[Tyjenks]

I do share it. I share it with my wife, my Xbox, my soon-to-be-born dog, and Satan. Not necessarily in that order.
This planet has enough people in it anyways. More room for my progeny. ;) Although, sometimes I feel a pang of guilt over what state the world I brought them into will be in when I have to push them out of the nest.

[Stroker Ace]

How the hell do you have a soon-to-be-born dog? Is it preordered from a breeder? Do you have some non-dog thing that is currently pregnant around the house?

[madkevin]

We did indeed pre-order it from a breeder. We put a down payment for the first pick of the males from a litter that's about to be born sometime in the next few days. We get the dog eight weeks after it's born.

[Stroker Ace]

http://www.blackpearldogs.com/blackdogwagstail.gif

Did You Know: We are guessing that the general public is not aware of how doomed black dogs are when they are brought to a pound because black dogs, particularly black labs or lab mixes, are euthanized at a horrifying rate at many pounds & shelters because people pass them up for lighter colored dogs. If you are thinking about adopting a dog please don't overlook black dogs because they are just as loving & wonderful as lighter colored dogs!

[madkevin]

We would have loved to get a rescue or pound dog, but sadly our living arrangements make it impossible. Technically, our apartment building restricts pets, but about a third of the building has pets anyway in a don't-ask-don't-tell arrangement. The rescue pounds up here in Ontario (or at least in my neck of the woods) will not give you a dog without express written permission of our landlord, which we can't get. So, no rescue dog for us.

That left us with breeders. We found a guy in Guelph who breeds mini-schnauzers, a breed both me and my wife like, and who doesn't dock the ears. (He docks the tail, though. The only person we found in Canada who doesn't dock at all is in Prince Edward Island, which is a bit of a drive.) So that's what we're getting.

[Stroker Ace]

You may have won the battle, but I'll be back with annoying image macros when you least expect it!

[madkevin]

Wait 'till I flame out Rimbo-style when I post massively large pictures of me and my wife drunkenly teaching our dog how to dance.

[Stroker Ace]

http://somuchdamage.com/stuff/lolwut.jpg

[RepoMan]

Yeah man, it's easy to focus on the negative with kids, and then ignore the unbelievably stunning positives. Like this morning my 3.5-year-old girl and my 1-year-old boy were playing together in her room -- she was giving him dolls and he was checking them out with great fascination, and then he stood up and fell over and bonked his head on the bed a bit, and cried a bit, and she stroked his head gently and said "Poor baby, it's OK, you'll feel better."

OH MY FUCKING GOD, I am SO GLAD I got to create two new little people who can be so sweet to each other. Best fucking feeling I've yet had since I started breathing. And the ride has only really just begun.

At the end of my life, that's the shit I'm gonna remember and be shatteringly grateful for, not the late nights and troubles.

[Aleck]

Marxeil,

My son had the same issue. We spent two months of hell after he was born in 2000, but ended up going to a specialist who set him up with a proscription to Pirlosec and 24 hrs later and a week on the meds he was cured. To this day he will still occassionaly get what I think of as heart burn, but that is maybe one meal every six months or so.

Fargull

Marx, it's also worth nothing that they make several different meds that your pediatrician can try. Close friends just went through this with their kid (from the time he was 3 weeks to 6 weeks he was crazy colicky), and meds cleared it right up. They're back to 5 hours of straight sleep per night, which is bliss with an infant.

[Aleck]

I'd just like to hijack this drunken raving thread title and say that I've gotten 6 hours of sleep in 48 hours, my baby by is struggling to latch, my wife is battling to express enough milk and did I mention the Guantanamo Bay stlye sleep depravation? (That shit is cruel and unusual.)

Also good luck with the hangover in the morning Rimbo.

It gets better, brother, trust me. The truly scary shit is that a year from now, you'll look back and say "ah, it wasn't that tough."

[Rimbo]

That was my view for a long while. No kids until I was 31 and had been married for 5 years. Now, they are easily the best thing I have done with my life. Not saying you have to have kids in order to have a fulfilling life, just saying personally, I would have little to show for my 38 years on the planet at this point otherwise.

I would go as far as to say you have to raise kids in order to have a fulfilling life. You can adopt, of course. Not having the experience of raising kids is like not having the experience of ever leaving the house -- spending your entire life in a single room with no windows. If you do it right, it absolutely and irreversibly changes who you are and how you see the world. Letting the stories of difficulties scare you into not raising kids is like letting the fear of sunburn prevent you from ever stepping out of the house. And of course, if you don't leave, you'll never really know what the experience is like.

[Rimbo]

Yeah man, it's easy to focus on the negative with kids, and then ignore the unbelievably stunning positives. Like this morning my 3.5-year-old girl and my 1-year-old boy were playing together in her room -- she was giving him dolls and he was checking them out with great fascination, and then he stood up and fell over and bonked his head on the bed a bit, and cried a bit, and she stroked his head gently and said "Poor baby, it's OK, you'll feel better."

OH MY FUCKING GOD, I am SO GLAD I got to create two new little people who can be so sweet to each other. Best fucking feeling I've yet had since I started breathing. And the ride has only really just begun.

At the end of my life, that's the shit I'm gonna remember and be shatteringly grateful for, not the late nights and troubles.

That's awesome. My kid can absolutely drive me up the wall (such as coming into my bed at 5AM last night, kicking me and screaming) but then one little smile from him at just the right time ... and a week's worth of hell is worth it. How dey do dat?

[Tyjenks]

I would go as far as to say you have to raise kids in order to have a fulfilling life. You can adopt, of course. Not having the experience of raising kids is like not having the experience of ever leaving the house -- spending your entire life in a single room with no windows. If you do it right, it absolutely and irreversibly changes who you are and how you see the world. Letting the stories of difficulties scare you into not raising kids is like letting the fear of sunburn prevent you from ever stepping out of the house. And of course, if you don't leave, you'll never really know what the experience is like.
Well, chose not to go that far as I beleive some folks are not cut out to be good parents. My Dad was not and he now admits it. He never quite knew how to deal with or handle little people. Maybe the 50's, stern upbringing his Dad gave him. Dunno. He was not mean, it just felt like he was going by a checklist of minimum requirements and once he did those, he had no clue as to where to go from there. If I had two parents like that...ugh, don't wanna think about it.

That said, you are right, your perspective on many, many things change and rarely for the worse when you have little ones. I can turn around and point to them and say, "Look what I did do". I did not want it to sound like those who do not have kids are worthless. Some people with the forum hair triggers and no kids may read it that way. :)

[Rimbo]

[some people aren't cut out to be parents]

You're probably right. I wouldn't know. For me, for most people I talk to, it sounds like most parents' experience is a guessing game. We're trying to figure things out as we go, and we all just try not to muck things up too much. We do our best, but so much is out of our hands.

That said, you are right, your perspective on many, many things change and rarely for the worse when you have little ones. I can turn around and point to them and say, "Look what I did do". I did not want it to sound like those who do not have kids are worthless. Some people with the forum hair triggers and no kids may read it that way. :)

Well, that's why I say "raise," because it's not about who gives birth, it's about who's involved with the kid.

[Slothrop]

We did indeed pre-order it from a breeder. We put a down payment for the first pick of the males from a litter that's about to be born sometime in the next few days. We get the dog eight weeks after it's born.
Did you get a pre-order bonus? Like, a ferret?

[Lunch of Kong]

If I had two parents like that...

I know of a kid who has two disengaged parents. He was diagnosed as a psychopath at age 8.

[Angie Gallant]

Mine is still cooking, but I can say that being pregnant has been a pretty amazing experience. Past the physical discomforts and occasional embarassments, I've learned a whole lot about the person I have become and how I want to continue growing.

[wigglestick]

Ale is beer.

This.

"Ale is not lager" might be a more appropriate thing to say. But! Some people like lager.

[Rimbo]

i was drunk at the time i said it

i also made a post around the same time saying that salt ruined a good steak, if that gives you any indication

[madkevin]

I would go as far as to say you have to raise kids in order to have a fulfilling life.

That's totally absurd. Not to mention really, really patronizing.

[Rimbo]

That's totally absurd.

How can you be sure about that?

Patronizing, I'll grant ya.

[Pogo]

Mine is still cooking, but I can say that being pregnant has been a pretty amazing experience. Past the physical discomforts and occasional embarassments, I've learned a whole lot about the person I have become and how I want to continue growing.

This kinda popped into my head after reading your post:

(#217) <Foodbunny> Yes, I do not enjoy the idea of cracking my pelvis open to give life to some squalling pink horror.

As for raising kids to be a requirement of a fulfilling life, I don't agree. People have very different definitions of what it means to lead a fulfilling life, and I think that the people that have had experience with raising kids (nieces and nephews, much younger brothers and sisters, etc.) can say whether or not it's a requirement for them.

[PeterK]

Mine is still cooking, but I can say that being pregnant has been a pretty amazing experience. Past the physical discomforts and occasional embarassments, I've learned a whole lot about the person I have become and how I want to continue growing.

If it's not too personal, I'd be interested in hearing you expand on this.

[madkevin]

How can you be sure about that?

You really believe that every single person who has NOT had children has lead an unfufilled life? That having children is a REQUIREMENT to experiencing fufillment? It's a patently absurd statement - one of many you make on a daily basis it would appear, but absurd nonetheless.

I don't doubt that many people feel all warm and squishy about their children. I myself have friends who really, really wanted kids and are now very happy to have them. But none of them would make the wild, ludricious claim that you HAVE TO raise children in order to experience fufillment.

[stusser]

It's a biological imperative, and a useful one at that. If we weren't hardwired to love our children we wouldn't have any, and then where would we be? Well, nowhere.

[Rimbo]

It's a patently absurd statement - one of many you make on a daily basis it would appear, but absurd nonetheless.

How can you be sure about that?

I don't consider it an absolute truth; I'm sure there are exceptions -- which prove the rule. The folks I know who made it past middle age without ever raising kids -- their own or adopted -- spend an awful lot of energy convincing themselves they made the right choice. They protest too much.

You're welcome to believe you'll be one of the exceptions. They all felt they were exceptions, too, y'know? And I'm sure if you make it to that point, you'll convince yourself in your heart of hearts that you made the right choice -- just like they all do. No matter how much effort it takes. Because at some point, you can't change your mind.

Or maybe you really are one of those exceptions, and it won't take any energy at all.

[Tyjenks]

It's a biological imperative, and a useful one at that. If we weren't hardwired to love our children we wouldn't have any, and then where would we be? Well, nowhere.

The one thing I have found is that I love my kids more than I could love anything. Not sure how that kicks in, but I thought I have loved pets, my Mom, my wife, but this is different. Not sure if it is more pure or what, but it is certainly there and incredibly strong.

Sorry to get all Hallmark Channel on yo' asses.

[madkevin]

How can you be sure about that?

How are you so sure you wouldn't be more fufilled without children?

I don't consider it an absolute truth; I'm sure there are exceptions -- which prove the rule. The folks I know who made it past middle age without ever raising kids -- their own or adopted -- spend an awful lot of energy convincing themselves they made the right choice. They protest too much.

Exceptions don't prove a rule. If there are exceptions, then it isn't a rule, is it? It isn't an absolute truth, period. And you can't tell me there aren't parents who spend an equal amount of energy convincing themselves that they really wanted kids.

You're welcome to believe you'll be one of the exceptions. They all felt they were exceptions, too, y'know? And I'm sure if you make it to that point, you'll convince yourself in your heart of hearts that you made the right choice -- just like they all do. No matter how much effort it takes. Because at some point, you can't change your mind.

Oh, goody, we're back to being patronizing. Let me guess: I'm not happy, I just think I'm happy? You really are a fucking tool. Let's try a little experiment: Go up to childless adults you know and explain to them that they are not now and never will be truly fufilled. Try to be as patronizing as possible. Let me know how that works out.

I have met dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands of people who would have been much happier without spawning. There are parents that deeply, deeply resent their children because having them meant giving up something very important to them. Or maybe they just hate the kids because they cost so much. Or maybe they hate them because the parents are just good ol' fashioned assholes.

You want to see the result of some joyous parenting? Go take a volunteer shift at a kids shelter sometime. Then maybe you can explain to the kids there how their abusive, fucked up parents are so full of "fufillment".

Just because you personally are incapable of imagining a joyous, fufilled life without children doesn't mean it's impossible.

[Rimbo]

Just because you personally are incapable of imagining a joyous, fufilled life without children doesn't mean it's impossible.

Agreed. It's perfectly possible.

How are you so sure you wouldn't be more fufilled without children?

Because I've lived life both ways, both with and without a kid.

You want to see the result of some joyous parenting? Go take a volunteer shift at a kids shelter sometime. Then maybe you can explain to the kids there how their abusive, fucked up parents are so full of "fufillment".

I claimed it was necessary...not sufficient.

You protest too much. I'm just that crazy lunatic Ugly American on the internet who thinks he got raped by the Tooth Fairy to you. I'm just some guy who needs to DIAF, as you yourself said. I'm a person of absolutely no meaning or value to you, just one of those religious crazies, mentally broken. I'm thousands of miles away. With one click of the message board's "Ignore" feature, I can disappear from your life completely. What does it matter to you what I think?

[Angie Gallant]

If it's not too personal, I'd be interested in hearing you expand on this.

<sappy pregnancy hormones>

It's a whole lot of nebulous emotional shifts that are hard to describe. One thing I have learned is that I've left behind the fearfulness of my formative years. I've been very relaxed and managed to go with the flow of this pregnancy instead of panicing over every strange sensation or test. From the very beginning of this pregnancy I've never doubted that everything is going well and that my baby will be healthy.

I also discovered that I am prepared to discard a lot of my selfishness in order to make way for the child that is coming. I'm also willing to push harder for her needs than I would normally be for my own.

And I'm not terrified of childbirth in the way that old quote from me indicates. It will hurt and change my body forever, but I'll have excellent medical care and pain fades. If that's the cost to bring a new life into the world, I'm fundamentally cool with that.

When I think about it, I have this just utter sense of calmness and contentedness about nourishing this little kicking and punching life that is growing inside me. I want to give her everything I can and her every little movement and squirm gives me such joy in return. It's a huge responsibility and it feels right to take it on.

</sappy pregnancy hormones>

[Tyjenks]

That is cool to hear Angie. Another thing about having kids, a person's loathing of sappy sentiment evaporates where the young 'uns are concerned.

[Rasputin]

How are you so sure you wouldn't be more fufilled without children?



Exceptions don't prove a rule. If there are exceptions, then it isn't a rule, is it? It isn't an absolute truth, period. And you can't tell me there aren't parents who spend an equal amount of energy convincing themselves that they really wanted kids.



Oh, goody, we're back to being patronizing. Let me guess: I'm not happy, I just think I'm happy? You really are a fucking tool. Let's try a little experiment: Go up to childless adults you know and explain to them that they are not now and never will be truly fufilled. Try to be as patronizing as possible. Let me know how that works out.

I have met dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands of people who would have been much happier without spawning. There are parents that deeply, deeply resent their children because having them meant giving up something very important to them. Or maybe they just hate the kids because they cost so much. Or maybe they hate them because the parents are just good ol' fashioned assholes.

You want to see the result of some joyous parenting? Go take a volunteer shift at a kids shelter sometime. Then maybe you can explain to the kids there how their abusive, fucked up parents are so full of "fufillment".

Just because you personally are incapable of imagining a joyous, fufilled life without children doesn't mean it's impossible.

Irregardless of anything else, it's spelled "fulfillment".

[Hanzii]

The one thing I have found is that I love my kids more than I could love anything. Not sure how that kicks in, but I thought I have loved pets, my Mom, my wife, but this is different. Not sure if it is more pure or what, but it is certainly there and incredibly strong.

Sorry to get all Hallmark Channel on yo' asses.

I absolutely agree.
It's a feeling of such strength it's impossible to explain even though you (and Hallmark) try - it has to be experienced.

And while I do find Rimbo patronizing and wrong - there's other ways to fulfillment - I do think that this is something that can't be experienced in any other way and thus doesn't compare. I can't imagine anything greater (and believe me, I was against the idea when my then girlfriend suggested it and actually only agreed because I loved her enough to make a compromise and sacrifice my way of life to make her happy... now she have to live with being second when love is measured - the first place is shared).

And people who still refer to it as "spawning" needs to grow up. We''ll talk agian in a few years time.

[Hanzii]

Irregardless of anything else, it's spelled "fulfillment".
And irregardless is not really a word...

[Rasputin]

And irregardless is not really a word...

Give the man a prize.

[PeterK]

Thanks, Angie, that was awesome.

And I'm not terrified of childbirth in the way that old quote from me indicates. It will hurt and change my body forever, but I'll have excellent medical care and pain fades. If that's the cost to bring a new life into the world, I'm fundamentally cool with that.

My wife was in labor for about 7 hours with our daughter. The delivery part was quick (she came out like a torpedo just a few minutes after the doctor came in the room), but the whole process was not fun for her to say the least. I still remember very vividly the huge smile she had on her face as soon as they handed our daughter to her, though. The change in her emotional state was incredible.

[Tyjenks]

Qt3 threads, following crazy, fucking routes since the turn of the century.

[Sebmojo]

<sappy pregnancy hormones>

It's a whole lot of nebulous emotional shifts that are hard to describe. One thing I have learned is that I've left behind the fearfulness of my formative years. I've been very relaxed and managed to go with the flow of this pregnancy instead of panicing over every strange sensation or test. From the very beginning of this pregnancy I've never doubted that everything is going well and that my baby will be healthy.

I also discovered that I am prepared to discard a lot of my selfishness in order to make way for the child that is coming. I'm also willing to push harder for her needs than I would normally be for my own.

And I'm not terrified of childbirth in the way that old quote from me indicates. It will hurt and change my body forever, but I'll have excellent medical care and pain fades. If that's the cost to bring a new life into the world, I'm fundamentally cool with that.

When I think about it, I have this just utter sense of calmness and contentedness about nourishing this little kicking and punching life that is growing inside me. I want to give her everything I can and her every little movement and squirm gives me such joy in return. It's a huge responsibility and it feels right to take it on.

</sappy pregnancy hormones>

My wife had a fairly intense labour, culminating in an emergency caesar. Directly afterwards she said that she'd do it again in a heartbeat. It's so totally worth it.

Incidentally, if having a caesarean is an issue (since the possibility can arise urgently during labour), she hasn't found it at all debilitating over the last six weeks (which was one thing we were a bit worried about). No driving or lifting heavy weights, a few pills from time to time and she's been absolutely fine.

[quatoria]

You're welcome to believe you'll be one of the exceptions. They all felt they were exceptions, too, y'know? And I'm sure if you make it to that point, you'll convince yourself in your heart of hearts that you made the right choice -- just like they all do. No matter how much effort it takes. Because at some point, you can't change your mind.

Awesome. You're a class act all the way, Rimbo.

[madkevin]

Agreed. It's perfectly possible.

So how can it be necessary to raise children to experience fulfillment (thanks, rasputin) then?

Because I've lived life both ways, both with and without a kid.

Yeah, but imagine you could go back and redo the last few years without children, like reloading an old RPG save point. How do you know you wouldn't be more fulfilled right now without children?

You protest too much. I'm just that crazy lunatic Ugly American on the internet who thinks he got raped by the Tooth Fairy to you. I'm just some guy who needs to DIAF, as you yourself said. I'm a person of absolutely no meaning or value to you, just one of those religious crazies, mentally broken. I'm thousands of miles away. With one click of the message board's "Ignore" feature, I can disappear from your life completely. What does it matter to you what I think?

Because I'm fucking tired of getting pity from idiots like you because my wife and I have chosen to not have children. We thought long and hard about it, and decided against it. We have excellent reasons for doing so, none of which are anybody's business except our own. But it would seem that we are now consigned to a life that will remain unfulfilled, according to you and your ilk.

Can you really not see how insulting you're being?

[MattKeil]

The happiest married couple I know has no children and no desire to change that. Rimbo is full of shit.

The folks I know who made it past middle age without ever raising kids -- their own or adopted -- spend an awful lot of energy convincing themselves they made the right choice. They protest too much.

Talk about the pot and the fucking kettle.

[RickH]

That's totally absurd. Not to mention really, really patronizing.

Of course, there's no possible way you could be missing out on a significant part of the human experience.

And no, dogs aren't the same.

[Rasputin]

Because I'm fucking tired of getting pity from idiots like you because my wife and I have chosen to not have children. We thought long and hard about it, and decided against it. We have excellent reasons for doing so, none of which are anybody's business except are own. But it would seem that we are now consigned to a life that will remain unfulfilled, according to you and your ilk.

If you eat meat, I have to say that you and your wife are at the very least selfish, since you could be helping to save the planet by producing a renewable source of meat. You could even feed it grass to help the flavor!

Oh, and you're welcome.

(God, I'm tired of working OT)

[MattKeil]

Of course, there's no possible way you could be missing out on a significant part of the human experience.

Not really the same thing as living a fulfilling life, is it?

[madkevin]

Of course, there's no possible way you could be missing out on a significant part of the human experience.

And no, dogs aren't the same.

I never claimed I wasn't. What I'm taking Rimbo to task for is his use of absolutes: That there is no possible way I can be a fulfilled human being without raising kids. It's an insulting, patronizing and false statement.

[Dave Markell]

My wife and I are childless and, since we're both early 40's, plan to stay that way. We're also both content with the decision. Sometimes, when we're around especially cute or interesting kids, we ask ourselves if we might be missing out. The answer, of course, is yes--we're missing out on both the rewards and penalties of parenting. However, we're both much too into doing our own thing to want to cramp our style with children.

Selfish? You bet. At least we're introspective enough to realize it and avoid the potentially huge mistake of creating a life that we would have a good chance of resenting, at least on some level, as a distraction from our real interests. I've known a lot of parents who fell into that category, and I feel very sorry for their kids. Children shouldn't be afterthoughts or distractions.

[Rimbo]

I absolutely agree.
It's a feeling of such strength it's impossible to explain even though you (and Hallmark) try - it has to be experienced.

And while I do find Rimbo patronizing and wrong - there's other ways to fulfillment - I do think that this is something that can't be experienced in any other way and thus doesn't compare. I can't imagine anything greater (and believe me, I was against the idea when my then girlfriend suggested it and actually only agreed because I loved her enough to make a compromise and sacrifice my way of life to make her happy... now she have to live with being second when love is measured - the first place is shared).

And people who still refer to it as "spawning" needs to grow up. We''ll talk agian in a few years time.

Hanzii, you put it very well.

You (and madkevin) also right that I was being patronizing -- and wrong -- to say that it's necessary for fulfillment. I'm struggling to try and figure out a way to describe the impact it's had on my life. It certainly isn't necessary, and "fulfillment" isn't really the right word to describe what I get out of it.

Because I'm fucking tired of getting pity from idiots like you because my wife and I have chosen to not have children. We thought long and hard about it, and decided against it. We have excellent reasons for doing so, none of which are anybody's business except are own. But it would seem that we are now consigned to a life that will remain unfulfilled, according to you and your ilk.

Your anger is justified and what I said was wrong. What I failed to consider was that although it certainly gives me a different point of view to have gone through the experience -- and triggered instincts I didn't even know existed -- there are plenty of experiences, some of similar or greater impact, that I'll never choose to have, and that doesn't make me less of a person.

(Saying stupid shit on internet message boards, on the other hand... But give me some credit. I gave advance notice. (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=1436487&postcount=1))

There are good reasons for not raising kids. "Already in our 40s" is a good one; raising kids is definitely a job for the young.

[hong]

Group hug!

[RickH]

Not really the same thing as living a fulfilling life, is it?

That would be too subjective to define. Everybody's got to make up their own mind on that one. And I would expect the answer to change several times over the years as well.

[Rimbo]

But having said that...

I cannot help but feel pity for people who choose not to have kids. I just can't help it. I can't believe that raising kids is not for everyone, because you're a direct genetic descendant of hundreds of thousands of generations who were; you're physically and mentally fit for the job. Outside of a handful of exceptions, natural selection deemed you fit.

And of course it's patronizing and irritating, but the feeling is there anyhow.

[hong]

Cancel that group hug!

[madkevin]

But having said that...

Couldn't just let it go, could you?

You can believe that raising kids is not for everyone because we (and, really, I mean me) are not brute animals incapable of higher thought. I'm not a salmon, for fuck's sake. I'm perfectly capable of choosing to follow or to not follow evolutionary imperatives.

You want to feel pity for somebody? Pity your kids when they get old enough to search for your internet posting history.

[Tyjenks]

Cancel that group hug!
Hehe.

[Alan Dunkin]

Oh jeez I though I had clicked on the Bigfoot thread and was wondering how the hell it went south so fast.

--- Alan

[Drastic]

Having a Bigfoot corpse in your freezer is absolutely necessary for life fulfillment.

[Angie Gallant]

So now we have progressed to the scorched earth/offend everyone stage of conversation between childfree and childful people.

[Rimbo]

I'm perfectly capable of choosing to follow or to not follow evolutionary imperatives.

Either choice you make follows an evolutionary imperative. "Higher thought" is itself an evolved trait, that plays a role in natural selection like any other.

No, I can't let it go. Because I want to understand why I feel the way that I do, because I am a rational human being capable of higher thought. If I were an animal, I would simply feel it. There wouldn't be a point in discussing it.

You find it offensive? Well, how else am I supposed to feel?

[MattKeil]

I can't believe that raising kids is not for everyone, because you're a direct genetic descendant of hundreds of thousands of generations who were;

Have you read the fucking news recently? A pretty large chunk of people with children are pretty shitty parents. Not the majority, but more than enough to put the lie to your ridiculous statement there.

You find it offensive? Well, how else am I supposed to feel?

That maybe other people are also rational beings that know what they want from life and have made their decisions accordingly? I fully plan to have children, and believe you when you say the love for a child is an incredible thing, but you're still being a dick.

[madkevin]

No, I can't let it go. Because I want to understand why I feel the way that I do, because I am a rational human being capable of higher thought. If I were an animal, I would simply feel it. There wouldn't be a point in discussing it.

You find it offensive? Well, how else am I supposed to feel?

Are you really, seriously wondering why your pity is offensive to me? Or is this more patented Rimbo nonsense that will be hand-waived away tomorrow with another lame gosh-I'm-sorry-booze-turns-me-into-a-retard bullshit excuse?

[Rimbo]

Are you really, seriously wondering why your pity is offensive to me? Or is this more patented Rimbo nonsense that will be hand-waived away tomorrow with another lame gosh-I'm-sorry-booze-turns-me-into-a-retard bullshit excuse?

No, I'm not wondering why YOU find it offensive. What I'm wondering is, how else could I possibly feel, and why should I feel differently?

[Hugin]

And irregardless is not really a word...

*whoosh*

[Tyjenks]

Are you drinking again?

Pretty sure the news representations of shitty parenting is a tiny percentage rather than large chunk. I have also found that not all blacks are criminals as opposed to what I see on the local news.

[madkevin]

No, I'm not wondering why YOU find it offensive. What I'm wondering is, how else could I possibly feel, and why should I feel differently?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were completely incapable of controlling your feelings. I guess you're like the chick from Star Trek: The Next Generation or something, right? Are you sensing danger right now?

As to why you should feel differently: it's because what you're feeling now makes you a dick.

[quatoria]

So now we have progressed to the scorched earth/offend everyone stage of conversation between childfree and childful people.

When Rimbo's around, it's a pretty good bet that things will progress to a scorched earth stage of conversation regardless of the topic. Nice job as always, Rimbo.

[Tyjenks]

I know. I was feeling a loving sense of community with Angie and her belly with Matthew out of the room and now the whole thing is soiled with Rimbo's pity.

[Hugin]

But having said that...

I cannot help but feel pity for people who choose not to have kids. I just can't help it. I can't believe that raising kids is not for everyone, because you're a direct genetic descendant of hundreds of thousands of generations who were; you're physically and mentally fit for the job. Outside of a handful of exceptions, natural selection deemed you fit.

And of course it's patronizing and irritating, but the feeling is there anyhow.

I have to say, your sentiment is almost lyrical emotionally and I appreciate it in those terms, but intellectually I think you're on crack.

Everywhere I turn I see people having kids who should not have had kids, who have crippled their lives with kids and crippled the kids too. Absolute disasters, everywhere. My roommate works in the juvenile court system and my mother worked JAD, so I know my perspective is biased, but still. Not having kids is an incredibly good idea for many people.

[ElGuapo]

I pity the fool that doesn't ejaculate into a cervix!


http://www.megaroms.co.uk/mrt.jpg

[Alan Dunkin]

Can we talk about bigfoot now?

--- Alan

[Rimbo]

Have you read the fucking news recently? A pretty large chunk of people with children are pretty shitty parents. Not the majority, but more than enough to put the lie to your ridiculous statement there.

Their kids survived, though, so they were adequate. And if their kids don't survive, then that branch of the genetic mix ends there. Natural selection sets a low bar.

That maybe other people are also rational beings that know what they want from life and have made their decisions accordingly?

I think you're on to something here and it's starting to break through, but bear with me. I'm truly not trying to be a jerk here; I'm genuinely trying to understand.

The key point, the element upon which all of this hinges, is "know what they want." It's based on the assumption that they know something that they can't possibly know unless they (a) make one choice, and not the other, and (b) wait nine months.

For most of us, these sorts of things are thrust upon us. I can't ever know what it's like to be black, or a woman, or what it's like to be raised in Mexico. It's silly for me to pity people who have no choice, and it's silly for them to pity me; I can't possibly know that one life is better than the other.

Other choices you can make, but are generally bad experiences. I won't ever know what it's like to kill a man (I hope), or to become brainwashed by Scientology.

And then there are the choices that are generally ridiculously overwhelmingly life-changing, as long as you aren't the sort of person who'll be unaffected by that sort of thing. But here's the catch; no matter what the reason is, as far as I've experienced, you've missed something tremendous, a major part -- if not the entire point -- of the human life experience.

I remember reading Berke Breathed, in one of his later collections, writing about how he had many dogs but no kids and never would have kids, because a dog would never drop his pants in a restaurant or something like that. And many years later, he gave an interview (http://www.avclub.com/content/node/22539) while his then 1-year-old daughter (surprise!) was sleeping in the next room, and when asked in the end what he wanted to be when he grew up, replied, "Dad. The rest is just frosting."

So I can't understand it. I feel like I'm on the outside of Plato's cave, looking inside, telling the folks inside how nice it is out here, and they're telling me they're just perfectly damned fine watching shadow puppets.

My God, I thought it'd be like having a dog that could talk back. Ha!

So how can they know they don't want it, when even those who've experienced it can't describe how it feels?

Somehow I feel we've had this conversation before.

[Rimbo]

But ya know, there's just one more thing.

When a friend or relative tells you that you should have children, or that you should have more, or that it's a shame you haven't had any or any more, they're paying you a huge compliment. Because what they're really saying is:

"The world needs more people like you."

Maybe if you understand it from that perspective, it won't bug you quite so much.

[MattKeil]

Their kids survived, though, so they were adequate. And if their kids don't survive, then that branch of the genetic mix ends there. Natural selection sets a low bar.

Maybe we're arguing past one another, but "the kid didn't die" doesn't really qualify someone as a successful parent in my book.

So I can't understand it. I feel like I'm on the outside of Plato's cave, looking inside, telling the folks inside how nice it is out here, and they're telling me they're just perfectly damned fine watching shadow puppets.

I think part of what you're failing to understand is that not everyone doesn't understand what having children entails. Not everyone who doesn't want children dislikes children. Not everyone's priorities in life are yours. Your stance reminds me of people who tell non-religious people that eventually they'll "come around" and become religious. It's horrendously dismissive of a person's entire cycle of decision-making regarding their lifestyle.

You are not enlightened. You've simply found what makes you happy. It has nothing to do with what makes anyone else happy. To make a gross oversimplification, I think Shadow of the Colossus is a work of genius. I cannot imagine not thinking that. But there are indeed people who don't, and in fact some who hate the game. This does not make the game any less wonderful to me, but my experience with it has exactly zero to do with the experience of someone who would rather play something else.

[Rimbo]

I think part of what you're failing to understand is that not everyone doesn't understand what having children entails. Not everyone who doesn't want children dislikes children. Not everyone's priorities in life are yours. Your stance reminds me of people who tell non-religious people that eventually they'll "come around" and become religious. It's horrendously dismissive of a person's entire cycle of decision-making regarding their lifestyle.

You are not enlightened. You've simply found what makes you happy. It has nothing to do with what makes anyone else happy. To make a gross oversimplification, I think Shadow of the Colossus is a work of genius. I cannot imagine not thinking that. But there are indeed people who don't, and in fact some who hate the game. This does not make the game any less wonderful to me, but my experience with it has exactly zero to do with the experience of someone who would rather play something else.

I figured it out in the shower, before I even read your post.

You're right; I don't know what other people want. Even more, it's not my place to choose what's right for them. Even if you're making a huge mistake (unless it's something that threatens someone else's health or happiness), it's up to you to decide and live as you choose. THAT is what's wrong with "pity."

Maybe we're arguing past one another, but "the kid didn't die" doesn't really qualify someone as a successful parent in my book.

It doesn't qualify in any moral sense; it's just what's sufficient for keeping the species alive.

[Brendan]

Our main problem is just the feeding. All the nurses in the hospital gave my wife conflicting advice on how to latch and feed, then we saw a private breast feeding specialist in and she ignored the fact that my wife's milk was a bit slower coming in properly. Nobody bothered to tell us that women who have early caesars sometimes take a week or two to start producing enough milk to sustain their babies, nevermind possibly preparing us for the fact that my wife might never have enough milk as is sometimes the case. The specialist acted like we wanted to feed our baby brandy straight from a broken necked bottle whenever we suggested supplementing with formula.

Women are also extremely emotionally invested in breastfeeding. Couple this with the fact that your emotional logic circuits seem to be the first to go in cases of extreme fatigue and you have a very stressful situation.

Having said that, we love our little man and it's all worth it. Each night things are improving and each day my wife is managing to feed and express a little bit more.

[Glenn]

You're right; I don't know what other people want. Even more, it's not my place to choose what's right for them. Even if you're making a huge mistake (unless it's something that threatens someone else's health or happiness), it's up to you to decide and live as you choose. THAT is what's wrong with "pity."It's like those passive-aggressive Christian women that loudly announce their intention to prayer for you.

[fire]

Mine is still cooking, but I can say that being pregnant has been a pretty amazing experience. Past the physical discomforts and occasional embarassments, I've learned a whole lot about the person I have become and how I want to continue growing.

I agree with this 100%. I feel like I have perspective and purpose. I am happy and looking forward to be taking care of and thinking about someone else. And a huge part of me is excited about contributing to the world in a real and lasting way. The world is a lonely place, but I'm optimistic.

[fire]

I just read the rest of this thread. Holy crap.

[Rimbo]

Our main problem is just the feeding. All the nurses in the hospital gave my wife conflicting advice on how to latch and feed, then we saw a private breast feeding specialist in and she ignored the fact that my wife's milk was a bit slower coming in properly. Nobody bothered to tell us that women who have early caesars sometimes take a week or two to start producing enough milk to sustain their babies, nevermind possibly preparing us for the fact that my wife might never have enough milk as is sometimes the case. The specialist acted like we wanted to feed our baby brandy straight from a broken necked bottle whenever we suggested supplementing with formula.

Women are also extremely emotionally invested in breastfeeding. Couple this with the fact that your emotional logic circuits seem to be the first to go in cases of extreme fatigue and you have a very stressful situation.

Having said that, we love our little man and it's all worth it. Each night things are improving and each day my wife is managing to feed and express a little bit more.

Congrats, Brendan! My brother's wife also had a C-sec, and she barely produced anything at all. They HAD to feed their daughter formula from the get-go.

Even with my wife, though, it took 2 weeks before anything came out for good, and our son lost weight during that period. It was rough, but when it came out, he regained everything he lost and then some -- and fast.

It's like those passive-aggressive Christian women that loudly announce their intention to prayer for you.

Exactly. And I recognized the similarity from the get-go, but couldn't quite put 2+2 together for some reason.

I agree with this 100%. I feel like I have perspective and purpose. I am happy and looking forward to be taking care of and thinking about someone else. And a huge part of me is excited about contributing to the world in a real and lasting way. The world is a lonely place, but I'm optimistic.

Wait... what???

[Brendan]

Um, I'm guessing congratulations are in order.

Also, Rimbo chill a little. The human race is diverse, some people set a goal of ensuring their genetic code survives for at least another generation and the joy that goes hand in hand, some choose to bypass that goal and focus on other experiences. It's all part of the rich tapestry of the human experience and no pity is required.

[Brendan]

Also, the ability to have children is kind of like voting in a demcracy, there are people out there who are too stupid, uneducated and short sighted to be allowed to vote, but the system wouldn't work without giving them the option. Or something.

[Rimbo]

Um, I'm guessing congratulations are in order.

Indeed they are!!!

Also, Rimbo chill a little. The human race is diverse, some people set a goal of ensuring their genetic code survives for at least another generation and the joy that goes hand in hand, some choose to bypass that goal and focus on other experiences. It's all part of the rich tapestry of the human experience and no pity is required.

True.

[Hanzii]

Our main problem is just the feeding. All the nurses in the hospital gave my wife conflicting advice on how to latch and feed, then we saw a private breast feeding specialist in and she ignored the fact that my wife's milk was a bit slower coming in properly. Nobody bothered to tell us that women who have early caesars sometimes take a week or two to start producing enough milk to sustain their babies, nevermind possibly preparing us for the fact that my wife might never have enough milk as is sometimes the case. The specialist acted like we wanted to feed our baby brandy straight from a broken necked bottle whenever we suggested supplementing with formula.

Women are also extremely emotionally invested in breastfeeding. Couple this with the fact that your emotional logic circuits seem to be the first to go in cases of extreme fatigue and you have a very stressful situation.

Having said that, we love our little man and it's all worth it. Each night things are improving and each day my wife is managing to feed and express a little bit more.

Well, the science is pretty clear on the fact that breastfeeding as much and as long as possible is best for the kid.

But when that is said, there's a bunch of so-called professionals that have developed this science into a religion where their disdain for people who won't or can't breastfeed makes Rimbo look understanding.*
They don't consider the strains of trying to breastfeed, when it's just not happening takes on new parents on how damaging a depressed and sleep deprived mother can also be for the baby in the long run.

To perpetrate the crime of countering science with anecdotes I just have to add, that my wife had two ceasarians. Milk was slow and she had to give up both times. We had our problems with using formula and the second kid did have some problems with infections, that she might not have had if she'd been breastfed longer - but we have two very healthy intelligent children raised on formula.

Ultimately the two of you have to choose, what works for you and in our case those professionals were helpful and understanding once we'd made clear, that we'd made our choice and there was no changing it.




* Of course the fact that Nestlé and others have perpetrated the myth - especially in the poorer parts of Africa - that breastfeeding was unhealthy compared to (expensive) formula is one reason that health professionals might feel the need to push hard in the opposite direction.

[Brendan]

Well, the science is pretty clear on the fact that breastfeeding as much and as long as possible is best for the kid.

Yeah, my wife and I really are trying to breast feed as much as possible because it is better for the little guy, what we are trying to do is only use formula for top ups, and use expressed breast milk and breast feeding as much as possible. If all goes well we'd like to phase out formula when that is possible.


But when that is said, there's a bunch of so-called professionals that have developed this science into a religion where their disdain for people who won't or can't breastfeed makes Rimbo look understanding.*
They don't consider the strains of trying to breastfeed, when it's just not happening takes on new parents on how damaging a depressed and sleep deprived mother can also be for the baby in the long run.

To perpetrate the crime of countering science with anecdotes I just have to add, that my wife had two ceasarians. Milk was slow and she had to give up both times. We had our problems with using formula and the second kid did have some problems with infections, that she might not have had if she'd been breastfed longer - but we have two very healthy intelligent children raised on formula.

We have a problem in this part of the world that Ob/Gyne doctors in this part of the world love their C-Sections. When we were in the maternity ward there was one woman who had natural birth and the other fifteen-odd women that I saw and spoke to all had C-Sections, a lot of them wanted natural birth as well (Four were in our ante-natal classes). I don't know whether this is a local phenomenon but it is disturbing considering how little education we got considering the possible effects on breast feeding.

But enough of that, my wife and boy are in the next room breast feeding, so I'm going to have a nap.

[Morkilus]

I thought this thread was going to be about being drunk on the internet. :(

[Rimbo]

I thought this thread was going to be about being drunk on the internet. :(

There was some, but then some stupid got mixed in.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Third_Party_Photo/2005/12/14/1134594035_4687.jpg

"...No way to go through life, son."

[Angie Gallant]

I've already steeled myself for the breastfeeding battles. I know that women who have had total thyroidectomies, such as myself, are more likely to have supply issues. And all indicators point to me having a pretty big baby, which they might elect to c-section. So while I know all the benefits of breastfeeding and I am determined to give it my best shot and be persistant with it, heaven help the person who tries to bully me into it.

[Tyjenks]

I've already steeled myself for the breastfeeding battles. I know that women who have had total thyroidectomies, such as myself, are more likely to have supply issues.
As did my sister, but she had no milk supply issues as far as I know. Although, that is not a discussion we often had.

[Rasputin]

Well, I think we've all learned something after this thread. About life, about each other, and maybe, just maybe, about ourselves.

But sadly, not Bigfoot.

[Rimbo]

Also, the first two weeks, nobody produces much of anything with the first child. The girlfriend/wife/whatever wanted to supplement just for those two weeks with formula, but was told it would cause problems -- either to breastfeed totally, or to use formula totally. Once it did start producing, however, she ended up producing way, way, way more than enough. We had a freezer full of pumped milk we eventually had to discard. :(

I think with all these c-secs going around, the concept of the wet-nurse needs to make a comeback.

[marxeil]

Marxeil,

My son had the same issue. We spent two months of hell after he was born in 2000, but ended up going to a specialist who set him up with a proscription to Pirlosec and 24 hrs later and a week on the meds he was cured. To this day he will still occassionaly get what I think of as heart burn, but that is maybe one meal every six months or so.

Fargull

Marx, it's also worth nothing that they make several different meds that your pediatrician can try. Close friends just went through this with their kid (from the time he was 3 weeks to 6 weeks he was crazy colicky), and meds cleared it right up. They're back to 5 hours of straight sleep per night, which is bliss with an infant.

Once the doctors knew what it was, we immediately switched him to infameal and started him on Losec. He is much better now, eating regularly, sleeping and playing.

He's a cute guy.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/2768783722_150bcaa7eb.jpg?v=0

[jwtheiv]

I've already steeled myself for the breastfeeding battles. I know that women who have had total thyroidectomies, such as myself, are more likely to have supply issues. And all indicators point to me having a pretty big baby, which they might elect to c-section. So while I know all the benefits of breastfeeding and I am determined to give it my best shot and be persistant with it, heaven help the person who tries to bully me into it.

There's a lot of crazy on both sides. =( Just do what is right for you and the baby - there's enough going on without adding external drama. My wife wanted to breastfeed completely, but because of baby weight issues, we had to supplement for the first week, then we tried 100% breastmilk for a few weeks. Between production and flat nipple issues, feedings were becoming exercises in utter frustration for both mom and baby, so now we're switching over to formula.

After all the horror stories from both the internets and from our own siblings, we were bracing for a huge argument when we told the pediatrician, but to our surprise, they seemed okay with it. Which was quite the welcome relief.

I guess just as a side note, we were natural birth (hospital, not home birth). The wife was however induced, as we were over a week past the due date.

[Brendan]

I've already steeled myself for the breastfeeding battles. I know that women who have had total thyroidectomies, such as myself, are more likely to have supply issues. And all indicators point to me having a pretty big baby, which they might elect to c-section. So while I know all the benefits of breastfeeding and I am determined to give it my best shot and be persistant with it, heaven help the person who tries to bully me into it.

Just tell Matthew to enjoy your bump now that he can. I miss my wife's.

[hong]

bump.

[Sebmojo]

There's a lot of crazy on both sides. =( Just do what is right for you and the baby - there's enough going on without adding external drama. My wife wanted to breastfeed completely, but because of baby weight issues, we had to supplement for the first week, then we tried 100% breastmilk for a few weeks. Between production and flat nipple issues, feedings were becoming exercises in utter frustration for both mom and baby, so now we're switching over to formula.

After all the horror stories from both the internets and from our own siblings, we were bracing for a huge argument when we told the pediatrician, but to our surprise, they seemed okay with it. Which was quite the welcome relief.

I guess just as a side note, we were natural birth (hospital, not home birth). The wife was however induced, as we were over a week past the due date.

Exactly. Breastfeeding is ideal, but bottle is fine too - and much better to have a stress-free bottle-fed baby than one that is having to deal with its mother going through hell trying to do something she's just not physically equipped for.

Also: This (http://everything2.com/e2node/The%2520relationship%2520between%2520breastfeeding %252C%2520asthma%2520and%2520atopy) study suggests that at least some of the benefits of breastfeeding may be overstated.

[Bahimiron]

The statistics are pretty clear in this matter. Mothers who bottle feed are thirty eight percent more likely to be lectured by random crazies in the supermarket. Fact!

[Angie Gallant]

Yeah, the amount of unsolicited advice I'm getting from strangers in grocery stores is already pretty high, it'll only get worse when the kidlet is outside of me.

[Sol Invictus]

Just tell them it's your 3rd child. They'll pipe down.

[Lunch of Kong]

Oh. The breast-feeding nazis. I've heard of those.

[Kyle Wilson]

Oh. The breast-feeding nazis. I've heard of those.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XPD5W8DDL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

[Hanzii]

bump.

Her lovely lady lumps.

[Lh'owon]

Just because I find this interesting:

Either choice you make follows an evolutionary imperative. "Higher thought" is itself an evolved trait, that plays a role in natural selection like any other.

Although I'm by no means knowledgeable enough to give an authoritative answer, I don't think this is true.

All thought has indeed evolved from evolutionary imperatives that are geared towards successful gene reproduction, but that is quite different from saying any particular thought or action is an evolutionary imperative. In fact many examples – making the choice to use contraceptives for one – clearly shows this to not be the case.

Yes evolution has produced "higher thought" but that doesn't mean it controls it. Remember that evolution has no forward thought (or thought at all) and cannot second guess. If we based our lives around evolution we'd all be running around screwing and killing, and the killing bit would be to enable more screwing.

It's a very good thing we can transcend basic evolutionary imperatives.

[Rimbo]

I guess what I meant by that comment is that if you choose not to have children, then you've selected yourself out. I guess some would call that "something-other-than-natural selection." The effect is the same. A lot of the reasons for such choices (e.g. high population leading to scarce resources, limited opportunities for young people leading to people starting families later in life, etc.) force the issue, such that what appears on the surface to be higher reason is really just choosing the most efficient path to achieve the same result.

[fire]

Some people choose not to or have circumstances that prevent them from having children. It's nothing new; it's been going on for thousands of years. And it's documented in literature.

[RepoMan]

So fire, are you pregnant or what? I saw that go by earlier in the thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?p=1439501#post1439501) and everyone was like WTF OMG and you were like all blasé and now I'm like, was I seeing things? Did someone dose me with something? WHO'S THE DADDY? Should I even be asking? Why isn't BillD in here freaking out? Please help me, I am a welter of confusion. A WELTER, I say.

[Rimbo]

Dick: It was a very poignant moment.
Tom: "Poignant?" What does that mean?
Dick: It means, pregnant with feeling.
Tom: This is a song about a girl who was six months poignant.

(Dick & Tom Smothers, that is)

[Ergo]

well duh, it's ale, not beer, and it's damned good
Ale IS beer. It just isn't a lager.

[Rimbo]

I think we have been through all of this before.

[fire]

So fire, are you pregnant or what? I saw that go by earlier in the thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?p=1439501#post1439501) and everyone was like WTF OMG and you were like all blasé and now I'm like, was I seeing things? Did someone dose me with something? WHO'S THE DADDY? Should I even be asking? Why isn't BillD in here freaking out? Please help me, I am a welter of confusion. A WELTER, I say.

Yup, you're not seeing things - I've got one in the pupa stage. Is that what they call it? I'd like to say I caught it from Angie, but I'll hear conflicting arguments saying that you can't "catch it" over the intarwebs. Did you know that gestating babies drink their own pee?

And why isn't Bill D in here freaking out? I'm hurt!

[Bill Dungsroman]

And why isn't Bill D in here freaking out? I'm hurt!

What the

[fire]

Ad at the top of the page: 10 rules for flat stomach!

I hate the world.

[mono]

'grats fire!

[tiohn]

Congratulations!

You and Angie should race.

[Siren]

I told you earlier over text, but congratulations, sweetie! I'm so excited for you!

[Rimbo]

Huge, huge, huge big-time congratulations, fire!

This news may very well be the salvation of this thread.

[Brendan]

Congrats Fire! Has QT3 found some way to transmit pregnancy over the intertubes? Should we call Mulder and Scully?

[Angie Gallant]

Congratulations!

You and Angie should race.

Hey now, we wouldn't want her having a preemie just from trying to get there first. And yes, we have determined that I am contagious. Other women should avoid prolonged board contact with me if they don't want to end up pregnant too.

[fire]

That's right - Angie had better have hers first! And ladies, I suggest latex gloves for QT3 posting.

[Rasputin]

Current ad: A&E show called "The Cleaner"

Take that how you will.

[Brendan]

I'm trying to get out of the habit of blogging about the sprog, but one last thing.

Just can back from the paediatrician and the little guy has put on 200g in a week which is more than the typical 140-160g expected during a week.

I'd also like to thank everyone for your support, it really has been appreciated. Sometimes when you are two clueless people and an infant cooped up in a small house it is easy to go out of your mind, you guys have been a great help keeping the wife and I sane.

[AndrewM]

Just can back from the paediatrician and the little guy has put on 200g in a week which is more than the typical 140-160g.

At that rate, he'll be able to afford a mount in no time.

[Tyjenks]

I'm trying to get out of the habit of blogging about the sprog, but one last thing.

Just can back from the paediatrician and the little guy has put on 200g in a week which is more than the typical 140-160g expected during a week.

I'd also like to thank everyone for your support, it really has been appreciated. Sometimes when you are two clueless people and an infant cooped up in a small house it is easy to go out of your mind, you guys have been a great help keeping the wife and I sane.

The second kiddie is soooo much different. You look back at the things you crapped yourself worrying over and chuckle. We all start out clueless. You'll do just fine. :)

[RepoMan]

Rimbo, you think you were at the end of your rope? No no no. This poor motherfucker is at the end of his rope. (http://www.wjno.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=244038&article=4117332)

[Hanzii]

I'm trying to get out of the habit of blogging about the sprog, but one last thing.

Just can back from the paediatrician and the little guy has put on 200g in a week which is more than the typical 140-160g expected during a week.

I'd also like to thank everyone for your support, it really has been appreciated. Sometimes when you are two clueless people and an infant cooped up in a small house it is easy to go out of your mind, you guys have been a great help keeping the wife and I sane.

Glad to be of service.
I still remember it, I looked like a zombie and had that scared "what the fuck did I just get into?!?" look for about a fortnight before I started realizing that they wouldn't break easily and stop bitching that the thing didn't come with a manual (we had books and the internet, but did they agree? Noooo).

The second one was just soo easy compared (and I looked back scornfully at the wuzz that was me version 1.0).

[Funkula]

At that rate, he'll be able to afford a mount in no time.

Win.5

[Jon Rowe]

Why Rimbo, there should be no end to your rope at all

http://www.observationdeck.org/noel/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/hanging_noose_310.jpg

:P

Edit:
(I totally just killed the thread <_< >_> Muahahahaha!)

[Sidd_Budd]

Damn, it's too bad Angie & fire didn't make it to the Seattle & San Francisco Qt3 meet ups back in May. My wife & I have been trying to get pregnant, & we could use the contagion.

Congratulations, fire!

[AaronSofaer]

Congratulations, fire! That's awesome news. We should hang out next time we're on the same side of the country and catch up with eachothers' news.