2008 Olympic Games [Archive] - Page 2 - Quarter To Three Forums

Alan Dunkin

08-22-2008, 12:00 AM

I think if the three athletes were disqualified China would go down to just 2 bronzes for all those events, which would be pretty nasty. I don't see this happening though, it doesn't seem like the IOC or the gymnastics organization wants to see this through.

Decent day for USA so far, men's beach volleyball got gold after a see-saw match, the men's indoor volleyball played much like the one against Venezeula, except the Russians were all kinds of nasty after the US went up 2-0 sets and they just barely pulled it out in the 5th.

Brian Clay is now leading the decathlon by a very nice margin with only 3 events to go; Trey Hardee is 4th and definitely within striking distance of bronze.

--- Alan

hong

08-22-2008, 04:01 AM

I think if the three athletes were disqualified China would go down to just 2 bronzes for all those events, which would be pretty nasty. I don't see this happening though, it doesn't seem like the IOC or the gymnastics organization wants to see this through.
They would be liable to lose 2 golds: the team medal and the uneven bars; and 2 bronzes: individual all-around and uneven bars. The Chinese girls didn't actually do that well, compared to the men.

SpoofyChop

08-22-2008, 06:22 AM

Updated multi-formula medal comparison that none of you care about!

Gold Silver Bronze Total 3G+2S+B 9G+3S+B
United States 30 36 35 101 197 413
China 46 15 24 85 192 483
Russia 16 17 22 55 104 217
Great Britain 18 13 11 42 91 212

The US has actually pulled ahead on the conservative 3G+2S+B formulation although I still maintain that gold medals are more like 3 times as cool as silvers and the 9G+3S+B formula reflects reality better.

China is still winning using that formula although it will be close if they take the medals away from all those 12 year olds.

Lorini

08-22-2008, 07:12 AM

The US Track and Field organization has A LOT Of work to do for 2012. I don't have the data, but I'm sure this is the worst Olympics they've had in track since who knows when. Just mental error after mental error.

Tim Partlett

08-22-2008, 07:15 AM

hong

08-22-2008, 07:19 AM

The Jamaican women drop the baton, as do the Brits, and RUSSIA wins the 4x100m. Is there something in the water?

Alan Dunkin

08-22-2008, 07:39 AM

I don't see how silvers and bronzes should count at all. In pretty much any sport league you don't get points for being second best. Points only count if you win. The only thing that silver and bronze should have any bearing on, is if two countries have the same number of gold, then they could be ranked by silver, and if necessary by bronze.

In plenty of sports you can do really well for being second-best; for wildcards, playoff positioning, etc. In racing you just don't get as many points. It's all about calling something a total failure just because you didn't win, which has never been the point of the games.

Brian Clay wins the gold for the US in the decathlon; we need to start working on our modern pentathlon guys for 2012 (which is a totally different kettle of fish). The men's waterpolo team beat Serbia in the semifinals, meaning they'll play Hungary for the gold.

--- Alan

Case

08-22-2008, 07:40 AM

Not so in track or cross country. Placing generates points for the team.

I don't see how silvers and bronzes should count at all. In pretty much any sport league you don't get points for being second best. Points only count if you win. The only thing that silver and bronze should have any bearing on, is if two countries have the same number of gold, then they could be ranked by silver, and if necessary by bronze.

hong

08-22-2008, 07:41 AM

WAHOOOO, STEVE HOOKER WINS THE POLE VAULT

Ryan A

08-22-2008, 07:48 AM

In medal counts, is it events won or actual medals awarded that are tabulated? Because I have to think that a team gold medal (especially in a real sport like soccer/baseball/volleyball/basketball where winning is based on performance rather than politics and whim -- I'm looking at you gymnastics/diving) is a greater accomplishment than an individual win.

Using that logic, the US women's soccer team gold would count as 11 golds if you just went with the number on the field or more how many on the roster, 18?. Sports like rowing, beach volleyball, and track relays could probably make this argument even more strongly, as it only takes one team member performing poorly to take the team entirely out of competition.

Fugitive

08-22-2008, 07:49 AM

Team events only count as one medal for the country, not as one for each team member.

Hanacker

08-22-2008, 08:01 AM

Team events only count as one medal for the country, not as one for each team member.

But they actually do hand out a medal to each team member.

Ryan A

08-22-2008, 08:07 AM

Somebody should make a chart of actual medals. I BET THE US WOULD TOTALLY WIN THAT *fistpump*

Fugitive

08-22-2008, 08:07 AM

But they actually do hand out a medal to each team member.
Well yeah, but the question was about what effect that had on official medal counts.

And if anyone ever wondered if the Olympics have their own crackpots... (http://100thofasecond.com/)

Funkman

08-22-2008, 08:14 AM

I'm at work right now, so I can't actually watch the Argentina/US game but I'm following the live updates on the ESPN site. The US crushed Argentina in the first quarter and was up by 19 points (30 to 11!) but somehow they have come back and at one point were only down by 6. At halftime it is 49-40, still anybody's game. However, the US tends to go on a big run after the break and put their opponents away. I've gotta get to a tv to watch the end of this one.

hong

08-22-2008, 08:29 AM

The USA wants revenge on Argentina. They're the team that knocked them out in the semis 4 years ago. I can't imagine they'll let Argentina do the same thing again.

Tim Partlett

08-22-2008, 08:46 AM

In plenty of sports you can do really well for being second-best; for wildcards, playoff positioning, etc. In racing you just don't get as many points. It's all about calling something a total failure just because you didn't win, which has never been the point of the games.

I was thinking of major team leagues, like football (soccer) and baseball.

But even in sports where you get points for coming second, people get upset if the overall winner is not the team that had the most victories. I remember back in the early 90s there was big controversy in Formula 1 because a number of championship winners had actually won less races than those that they had beaten, and they radically changed the points system in an effort to prevent this from happening.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the team that wins the most golds really is the winner overall.

And check this out:

Medals Table 2004 (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/athens/medals.aspx) vs Medals Table 2008 (http://content.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/medals.aspx)

The way I described olympic medal tables, ranked by golds and separated by silvers then bronzes, has been the way the medals have been ranked since forever, and continues to be everywhere else in the world. Why did it suddenly change for this Olympics in America?

Alan Dunkin

08-22-2008, 09:06 AM

Wow you're clever. Did you work that out all by yourself?

--- Alan

Fugitive

08-22-2008, 09:09 AM

I remember back in the early 90s there was big controversy in Formula 1 because a number of championship winners had actually won less races than those that they had beaten, and they radically changed the points system in an effort to prevent this from happening.
And then they changed it back because Ferrari turned into an unstoppable juggernaut under it. Ah, you can't please everyone... It's still an ongoing debate though, and in F1 it's important to have some kind of scoring and final ordering because it affects things like the team revenue split and driver salaries.

Tim Partlett

08-22-2008, 09:35 AM

To be fair to the American press, USA Today seems to be the odd one out in changing its scoring system. Total medal count seems to have always been the way the US media has presented the medals table - it just didn't make much of a difference until 2008.

antlers

08-22-2008, 11:50 AM

I think it should be 100 gold, 99 silver, 98 bronze. It's really hard to get any medal at all...

Alan Dunkin

08-22-2008, 12:07 PM

Scoring in F1 is really important; if you get driver points you F1 pays for your transportation to the next venue. That's a huge expense you don't have to worry about.

--- Alan

dwinn

08-22-2008, 07:31 PM

I'm now watching Women's Mountainbike on nbc's site and have now seen some of every event (as listed on the official site (http://en.beijing2008.cn/)) during these games, televised, online, live or otherwise.

Thanks NBC Universal! You've come a long way from the Olympic Triplecast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Triplecast).

krise madsen

08-23-2008, 03:21 AM

Correction: The Olympic authorities rejected the protests and the medal ceremonies were completed with the Danes as winners.

However, both Spain and Italy have appealed to CAS (the "supreme court" of sports issues). No idea when that decision will be in.

Respectfully

krise madsen

CAS has now rejected the Spanish and Italian protests. Thus, the Danes are definitively declared as the winners. Still the craziest olympic boat race I've ever heard of.

Respectfully

krise madsen

playingwithknives

08-23-2008, 09:47 AM

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44953000/jpg/_44953459_matos_big_gi.jpg

Matos of Cuba disagrees with the referee in the TKD finals. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/taekwondo/7578743.stm)

hong

08-23-2008, 11:10 AM

Austria pulls off an upset for the history books with the men's 10 m platform diving. China had the clean sweep in the bag until their no.1 diver muffed his final dive, and then Matthew Mitcham did the best dive of his career to grab the lead. Awesome.

quatoria

08-23-2008, 01:54 PM

I cannot watch the diving. It fills me with an uncontrollable urge to murder Cynthia Potter.

sjhunn

08-23-2008, 07:12 PM

I am officially tired of seeing track runners "ease up" a few steps from the finish line.

fire

08-23-2008, 07:30 PM

triggercut

08-23-2008, 07:59 PM

Australia.

He's been doing that for 10 pages now, why stop?

(FWIW, I asked an Australian friend if folks there commonly referred to their country as "Austria" and he said "Hell no. Vienna is a long way from here."

hong

08-23-2008, 09:26 PM

He's been doing that for 10 pages now, why stop?

(FWIW, I asked an Australian friend if folks there commonly referred to their country as "Austria" and he said "Hell no. Vienna is a long way from here."
Your friend is in Melbourne, right?

Brad Grenz

08-24-2008, 03:50 AM

Basketball final was a damn exciting game. It was really physical, more contact than I can remember seeing in an NBA game. Spain sure kept things interesting until Kobe put things away late in the fourth.

hong

08-24-2008, 06:22 AM

... is that a stairway to heaven I see before me?

Lorini

08-24-2008, 11:02 AM

While the American team was called the Redeem Team, I think this Olympics was Kobe's redemption. He was shown in the most positive light I think I've ever seen. In the crowds watching other athletes, always smiling, and then shows up when it counts. Scary to think the US might have lost that game without him.

triggercut

08-24-2008, 03:33 PM

Your friend is in Melbourne, right?

Lightning Ridge, NSW.

Qmanol

08-24-2008, 04:46 PM

Australia pulls off an upset for the history books with the men's 10 m platform diving. China had the clean sweep in the bag until their no.1 diver muffed his final dive, and then Matthew Mitcham did the best scored dive of any olympic diver, ever, to grab the lead. Awesome.

Fixed.

hong

08-24-2008, 05:15 PM

Lightning Ridge, NSW.
Oh mang, you found the ONE place in Austria that's further away from everything than Melbourne.

triggercut

08-24-2008, 09:23 PM

My favorite Olympic moment of these games might've happened in the wee hours of the morning. The US indoor volleyball team had just won the gold medal and coach Hugh McCutcheon--the man whose father-in-law was killed and mother-in-law seriously injured--joined his team briefly on the court to accept some hugs....

...and then scurried over to the tunnel overhang, in the shadows and out of sight of cameras to put his head in his hands, shoulders shaking. He came back out a minute later scrubbing at his eyes, and you could almost feel his emotions in your own heart. I'm very happy the team came through for their coach like that.

Sebmojo

08-25-2008, 12:32 AM

Olympic photos (http://stuff.thdesign.be/forum/varia/OS.html), via Metafilter. Some amazing shots.

Sol Invictus

08-25-2008, 12:43 AM

Olympic photos (http://stuff.thdesign.be/forum/varia/OS.html), via Metafilter. Some amazing shots.

Wow, thanks for those. They're pretty amazing.

Sol Invictus

08-25-2008, 12:47 AM

http://img.stern.de/_content/63/41/634192/BesteBilder113_750.jpg
I could see this being on the box art for EA's Facebreaker

Fugitive

08-25-2008, 11:24 AM

I was going to ask if the mayor of London was normally that disheveled at massive public events, but after Googling around a bit, he clearly spent at least twice as long primping himself for the closing ceremonies than he normally does.

biclops

08-25-2008, 12:08 PM

Olympic photos (http://stuff.thdesign.be/forum/varia/OS.html), via Metafilter. Some amazing shots.
These are fantastic, but there are some NSFW shots in there.

Hanacker

08-25-2008, 01:43 PM

These are fantastic, but there are some NSFW shots in there.

And it seems like an inordinate amount of crotch shots.

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 05:50 AM

In the USA, Bronze is worth more than Gold.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9923/1219682069688gg2.png

Why are Americans being so dishonest about this?

In 2004, USA today ranked countries by the number of golds they won, because America won the most golds.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/athens/medals.aspx

Notice how Russia is #3 even though it has more overall medals than China.

Today it's suddenly ranked by total medals, because the US doesn't have as many of em as China.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/medals.aspx

triggercut

08-26-2008, 05:54 AM

In the USA, Bronze is worth more than Gold.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9923/1219682069688gg2.png

In the US, the "medal tracking" during the Olympics has *always* been done by most major media outlets as total medals, whether the US is on top of the heap or not (like during the Winter Olympics).

The only thing making this a story for the uninformed is that for the first time in recent history, the country leading the medal count did NOT have the highest total of gold medals. The Chinese were determined to make sure they "won" the Olympics, as if the whole event were some sort of team sport, and managed to get the gullible and easily duped to play along.

Ryan A

08-26-2008, 05:56 AM

Also, Google and ABC: American

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 05:59 AM

Also, Google and ABC: American

ABC isn't American, and Google isn't a TV network.

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 06:01 AM

In the US, the "medal tracking" during the Olympics has *always* been done by most major media outlets as total medals, whether the US is on top of the heap or not (like during the Winter Olympics).

The only thing making this a story for the uninformed is that for the first time in recent history, the country leading the medal count did NOT have the highest total of gold medals. The Chinese were determined to make sure they "won" the Olympics, as if the whole event were some sort of team sport, and managed to get the gullible and easily duped to play along.

Uh-huh. Explain USA Today.

Talisker

08-26-2008, 06:06 AM

Outrage!

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 06:06 AM

This is what gets me about the news media outlets in the states. If they win most of the gold medals, they'll make a big deal about how they won and rub it in everyone's faces. If they don't, they'll find some way to skew it and make it look like USA IS #1! AMERICA FUCK YEAH. It's either that or they'll go on some tirade about how the Olympics suck and how medals don't matter anyway since China cheated in a few of the competitions.

Bottom line: USA IS #1. AMERICA FUCK YEAH.

triggercut

08-26-2008, 06:18 AM

Uh-huh. Explain USA Today.

Check out the meaning of "most", you cuddly, fuzzy kitten.

(edited to be more nice...what could be nicer than cute little kittens?)

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 06:22 AM

Check out the meaning of "most", you stupid sack of shit.

Mm-hmm. Yup. Most. Cut the crap, and admit the bias, triggercut.

Ryan A

08-26-2008, 06:24 AM

Sol Invictus is angling to becoming the most annoying poster, by far.

Damien Falgoust

08-26-2008, 06:26 AM

(Woops, wrong thread.)

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 06:27 AM

Hey, I don't go around calling people 'stupid sacks of shit' (neither do you, I assume), so I do think I reserve the right to take the piss after his post, Ryan.

triggercut

08-26-2008, 06:28 AM

Sol Invictus is angling to becoming the most annoying poster, by far.

We should start a pool. Only a matter of time.

triggercut

08-26-2008, 06:33 AM

Hey, I don't go around calling people 'stupid sacks of shit' (neither do you, I assume), so I do think I reserve the right to take the piss after his post, Ryan.

I felt the need for brevity.

But you're right Sol. You've clearly uncovered the conspiracy and blown the doors wide open here: many American media outlets have a pro-American bias. Who could have *possibly* have ever, ever seen that coming?

(Oh, and not the use of the word "many" there, which like the word "most" is a qualifier against all-inclusiveness meant to imply universality. Just thought I'd try to pre-empt you one more time from waving around a copy of USA Today.)

hong

08-26-2008, 06:35 AM

But you're right Sol. You've clearly uncovered the conspiracy and blown the doors wide open here: many American media outlets have a pro-American bias. Who could have *possibly* have ever, ever seen that coming?

So, you _admit_ that in the US, bronze is worth more than gold?

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 06:38 AM

That was pretty rude and uncalled for.

I'll admit that I was being pedantic over the whole issue and no, I don't *really* think there's any conspiracy to make America look better. You raised a good point with the 2006 Winter Olympics and yes, the change had already happened with *most* of the outlets then. USA Today simply picked a very inopportune time to make the switch and the immediate impression isn't a good one.

I think that what this highlights is a need for the IOC to create a standard scoring system that accredits points to gold, silver and bronze medals. Perhaps 4 to gold, 2 to silver and 1 to bronze or something along these lines.

That said, I don't think a bronze is worth as much points as a gold. It's ridiculous to even suggest it and I don't see any reason why they need to adopt such a system. Gold is pretty much a universal indicator of excellence.

hong

08-26-2008, 06:39 AM

I think that what this highlights is a need for the IOC to create a standard scoring system that accredits points to gold, silver and bronze medals. Perhaps 4 to gold, 2 to silver and 1 to bronze or something along these lines.

The IOC already has a standard scoring system. Gold gets 1 point, silver gets 0, and bronze gets 0. It has been this way ever since the IOC started publishing medal tables, some time in the 1970s IIRC.

triggercut

08-26-2008, 06:46 AM

So, you _admit_ that in the US, bronze is worth more than gold?

I'll admit that in the US, media outlets who happen to make money by attracting subscribers and advertisers might think it judicious to not expose themselves to America-firsters, yes.

triggercut

08-26-2008, 06:48 AM

That was pretty rude and uncalled for.

I know that you're unused to the concept, but one of the great things about qt3 is the "reap what you sow" mechanic.

Sol Invictus

08-26-2008, 06:52 AM

I know that you're unused to the concept, but one of the great things about qt3 is the "reap what you sow" mechanic.

Oh I've given my share of it elsewhere. I still think it was rude.

hong

08-26-2008, 06:54 AM

I'll admit that in the US, media outlets who happen to make money by attracting subscribers and advertisers might think it judicious to not expose themselves to America-firsters, yes.
Jacques Rogge did this better than you.

triggercut

08-26-2008, 06:57 AM

Jacques Rogge did this better than you.

He gets paid more to do it.

biclops

08-26-2008, 07:30 AM

The IOC already has a standard scoring system. Gold gets 1 point, silver gets 0, and bronze gets 0. It has been this way ever since the IOC started publishing medal tables, some time in the 1970s IIRC.
The IOC does not officially rank countries