Fatties enraged by "Fat Princess" [Archive]

Sol Invictus

07-23-2008, 02:06 AM

The legion of overweight fatties are at it again. This time they're enraged by a new PSN release called "Fat Princess" by Titan Studios.

It's a cutesy 32-player hack and slasher that features a fat princess that's being overfed by bad guys whose weight makes her rescue a difficult process. Neat concept, and the graphics are nice, but the fatties are displeased.

We all know what happens when fat people get emotional: they eat. But while they're busy stuffing their faces with both cake and bacon, they write to complain about what's making them upset on the dear old internet.

According to Kotaku, their complaint goes something like this:
"reinforce nasty stereotypes about women and the obese," calling the mechanic of excessively feeding the portly, titular princess "fat-bashing."

What about the more popular stereotype that every woman is an underdressed, large-chested prostitute as portrayed in so many other games? I'd find that to be far more offensive, were I an easily offended drama queen. Could it be that they're upset simply because this particular game mocks obesity, more than anything else? No way!

Rage ahoy: http://www.feministgamers.com/?p=466

intruder

07-23-2008, 02:14 AM

Imagine a fat, black Catholic female.
She could be pissed off about Princess, Wii Fit, RE5 and Resistance all at once!

Time for some drive-by I guess ;)

Seriously: Politicial Correctness sucks dick!

Ah by the way: I'm from now on offended about the inaccurate portrayal of my grandfather + his comerades as German soldiers in WWII.
Please stop dumping the AI down! I'm really pissed! Like really, really. I'm stomping my feet on the ground right now and will get some petition up and running.

TomChick

07-23-2008, 02:54 AM

Manufactured news. :( Two blog entries gripe about the concept of Fat Princess and suddenly it's news.

Someone on NeoGaf notes one of the blogs (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328247). On the second page of the thread, someone else posts a link to the second blog. Then PS3 fanboy does a blog entry (http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/07/22/feminists-unhappy-with-fat-princess/), crediting NeoGaf. Then Joystiq writes it up (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/22/so-it-begins-feminist-gamers-decry-sonys-fat-princess/), crediting PS3 fanboy, but not NeoGaf. Somewhere in all that, Kotaku jumps in (http://kotaku.com/5028019/sonys-fat-princess-makes-internet-upset), crediting no one and putting it under a headline claiming "the Internet" is upset.

As a guy trying to do a blog myself, it's really annoying to see this kind of lazy work, both in terms of no one bothering to check and credit sources, as well as this tendency to inflate non-stories.

-Tom

MarinusWA

07-23-2008, 02:58 AM

Pointing out that fat people have difficulty of being saved because of their weight is stereotyping?

I'm sure that several firemen who had to tear down a wall to get the fatty inside to the outside would disagree.

Gendal

07-23-2008, 03:06 AM

Did I mention I am kinda excited for this game? I don't know why but the gameplay sounds entertaining with all of the extra stuff to do based around CTF (capture the fatty?).

Hopefully this will be a good game to flex my woefully underutilized friends list on the PS3.

Sol Invictus

07-23-2008, 03:09 AM

The NeoGAF thread provides the following:
http://i33.tinypic.com/okapav.jpg

And yeah, I grabbed the story from Kotaku. Seems it's a story now, thanks to the mill.

krise madsen

07-23-2008, 04:39 AM

Hey, I'm pretty fat* myself - though, last I checked, I wasn't a women - and I find this game fucking hilarious.

*) and by "fat" I mean a 2-year-old thought I was pregnant like her mommy.

Respectfully

krise madsen

EDIT: And presto! I get a new flash ad: "How To Loose Belly Fat!". Pfft, if they want my attention they need to ramp it up: "How To Loose Belly Fat While Eating Like a Pig And Sitting On Your Fat Ass All Day!".

Brad Grenz

07-23-2008, 04:45 AM

Hahahaha, I just scrolled up to see what ad I was getting. It's a BBW dating site. Hahahahahaha

Anders Hallin

07-23-2008, 05:33 AM

A couple of bloggers not really liking a game theme isn't really interesting (and really, rage? that was only on Shakes, which Sol didn't link, and that's her schtick). How quickly a bunch of gamers get defensive and derisive about the people not really liking it is a bit more interesting.
As it says in another blog post about this (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/23/well-that-was-bound-to-happen/):
The prototypical online gamer (at least the kind that burn their free time posting on message boards and blogs) is not only used to screaming offensive inanities at each other, but is crouched in a perpetual defensive posture, waiting to lash out if anyone dares slight their console of choice, claim that video games brainwash teens into shooting up high schools, or suggest that any game they like might be worth a political critique.

What about the more popular stereotype that every woman is an underdressed, large-chested prostitute as portrayed in so many other games? I'd find that to be far more offensive, were I an easily offended drama queen. Could it be that they're upset simply because this particular game mocks obesity, more than anything else? No way!
By the same token, it’s not like games with fat characters have to be mocking or reinforcing of stereotypes like “fat people can’t move on their own” and “fat people will eat anything you put in front of them.” This opinion seems to confuse the more dimwitted dewd-gamers, who say things like “you don’t like skinny chicks in games, and now you don’t like fat chicks in games, there’s no pleasing you feminists!” Figure it out, dumbass. People, including a lot of gamers, even in that early coverage, are complaining about mocking, objectified portrayals of fat people and over-representation of certain body types as sexpots, heros, and sexpot heroes.

Sol Invictus

07-23-2008, 05:48 AM

intruder

07-23-2008, 06:00 AM

Here in Asia we 'mock and objectify' obesity and commenting on a person's weight isn't seen as insulting. You can compliment a person for losing weight within ear shot of a fat person and not be at the receiving end of some kind of retarded lecture about your 'insensitivity'. Likewise, if a person's gained weight, you can tell them it looks bad on them and chances are they'll make an effort to lose that weight. There would be more fat people if we all went along with the 'fat acceptance' bullshit.

Does that include the working space?

Calistas

07-23-2008, 06:07 AM

once saw a program about fat people where a woman said that people always talked about how fat she was and that the enbarassment drove her to lose weight. Turned to my lady and said "see! It works!".

Game looks amusing tho

RickH

07-23-2008, 06:41 AM

Being fat and slovenly isn't a race or a culture. It's as much a bad habit as being filthy and unkempt.

Yep, a lot of folks see it as a moral failing. Which is great, since it gives you free license to abuse people from a position of assumed superiority without the negative consequences of being racist or any of those other unacceptable prejudices.

Got to scratch that itch.

Hugin

07-23-2008, 06:45 AM

Jason McMaster

07-23-2008, 06:54 AM

You must be a real joy to be around.

yeah.

Griddle

07-23-2008, 06:54 AM

I don't have that console, but I'd buy the game just to have an interesting thing to pull out at parties.

"Hey guys, check it out, FAT PRINCESS!!!"

:)

RightWrong

07-23-2008, 07:00 AM

Someone makes joke, someone gets offended, news at 11.

Octonoo

07-23-2008, 07:20 AM

I might actually buy a PS3 just for this game! Not because of the above mentioned "controversy" being weighed upon, but because it actually looks like a pretty fun game to play.

MarinusWA

07-23-2008, 07:21 AM

Yep, a lot of folks see it as a moral failing. Which is great, since it gives you free license to abuse people from a position of assumed superiority without the negative consequences of being racist or any of those other unacceptable prejudices.

I don't know about moral failing (what does that even mean anyway?) but I see someone who is obese as someone who has an unhealthy addication. And yeah I feel superior to someone who trashes their own body through an addiction. I fail to see what is assumed about that. I'm not going to harass people for being addicts but don't expect me to tiptoe around it either.

RobotPants

07-23-2008, 07:27 AM

While I do tire of hearing fatties get upset over anything, I have to agree that this particular situation isn't news. It's yet another case of someone posting an unfavorable opinion about a game and then getting dogpiled by every hyper-defensive gamer out there who just won't stand for it, gosh darn it!

The notion that a game with a premise like this one is reinforcing "nasty stereotypes" is hilarious, though.

IkeVandergraaf

07-23-2008, 07:58 AM

I like cake.

Charles

07-23-2008, 08:11 AM

I don't see why fat people should get offended at anything anyone says about them. I didn't get offended by the fat remarks when I was 20 pounds overweight. Instead, I started working out at the gym, changed my diet around and stopped eating at Burger King.

If they're offended by it then by god they should just take the effort to lose some weight and stop eating junk food. If they're happy being fat, they shouldn't throw a fit every time someone 'objectifies' their obesity.

Being fat and slovenly isn't a race or a culture. It's as much a bad habit as being filthy and unkempt. I don't see any League of People Who Don't Take Showers getting mad at fictional portrayals of the homeless and the destitute.

Here in Asia we 'mock and objectify' obesity and commenting on a person's weight isn't seen as insulting. You can compliment a person for losing weight within ear shot of a fat person and not be at the receiving end of some kind of retarded lecture about your 'insensitivity'. Likewise, if a person's gained weight, you can tell them it looks bad on them and chances are they'll make an effort to lose that weight. There would be more fat people if we all went along with the 'fat acceptance' bullshit.

Yeah well, for some people, it's not as simple as just taking the effort -- for some people, the only way to actually lose weight and keep it off is to spend all your spare time aiming for it. If you were told that the only way you could correct something was to give up doing everything you loved and instead worked out during all your free time in a day, what would you do?

Some people are perfectly happy being overweight. Some people are in a position where it's difficult to change.

I don't see why people are getting upset by proxy -- in those cases, yeah, just shut up. But that doesn't give anyone license to use it as a bludgeon against someone personally. That's just rude and disrespectful.

Stroker Ace

07-23-2008, 08:14 AM

I do about 80 minutes more walking a day than I used to (up from zero, natch), and I've lost a ton of weight this summer. I don't even have to change clothes or shower, I just pop in the iPod, walk off of my desk, and go.

Oh, and I quit eating so much and cut out most of the super greasy food from my diet. I'm feeling better all around. I am starting to agree that people who can't help being fat are outliers, and most of us just have unhealthy attitudes.

Charles

07-23-2008, 08:20 AM

And yet if people are content to live with their weight, it's still rude and disrespectful to take SolInvictus's attitude.

Hawkeye Fierce

07-23-2008, 08:25 AM

This, to me, just seems like another example of "someone complains about something, therefore ALL MEMBERS OF THAT GROUP are complaining about it." It's just another form of stereotyping, and a pretty obnoxious attitude regardless of the target group. I don't think "obese" should be a protected class or anything, but at the same time I don't think this is some sort of P.C. conspiracy.

SwampIrish

07-23-2008, 08:28 AM

Burger King does sound good right now.

WarrenM

07-23-2008, 08:29 AM

I'll share that my PMSing wife took great offense to this game when I mentioned it to her, and made me endure a short tirade regarding misogyny and stereotypes. She didn't realize she was PMSing at the time, however, and a few days later apologized and said she thought the game was funny.

intruder

07-23-2008, 08:34 AM

And yet if people are content to live with their weight, it's still rude and disrespectful to take SolInvictus's attitude.

He stated it's a cultural thing in Asia and seems to be perfectly acceptable over there. He seems to be from Singapore or at least lives there right now. It's not rude in the culture he is surrounded by obviously.

Stop trying to apply this PC shit you seem to live happily (or not) over there to the rest of the world.

In Europe you can make jokes about fat people and call them fat besides at the work place that's why I wondered if you can make those comments at work or not in Singapore.

If those people are so happy and content they shouldn't be upset about a game making jokes about their weight nor about people calling them fat!

Neopythia

07-23-2008, 08:35 AM

Charles

07-23-2008, 08:46 AM

He stated it's a cultural thing in Asia and seems to be perfectly acceptable over there. He seems to be from Singapore or at least lives there right now. It's not rude in the culture he is surrounded by obviously.

Stop trying to apply this PC shit you seem to live happily (or not) over there to the rest of the world.

In Europe you can make jokes about fat people and call them fat besides at the work place that's why I wondered if you can make those comments at work or not in Singapore.

If those people are so happy and content they shouldn't be upset about a game making jokes about their weight nor about people calling them fat!

read -> comprehend -> post.

SwampIrish

07-23-2008, 08:50 AM

Taco Bell does sound good right now.

Hugin

07-23-2008, 08:58 AM

He stated it's a cultural thing in Asia and seems to be perfectly acceptable over there. He seems to be from Singapore or at least lives there right now. It's not rude in the culture he is surrounded by obviously.

Stop trying to apply this PC shit you seem to live happily (or not) over there to the rest of the world.

In Europe you can make jokes about fat people and call them fat besides at the work place that's why I wondered if you can make those comments at work or not in Singapore.

If those people are so happy and content they shouldn't be upset about a game making jokes about their weight nor about people calling them fat!

Political correctness: The insidious conspiracy to raise any sort of objection to people being towering hateful dicks.

ReptileHouse

07-23-2008, 09:06 AM

My belly is a beer drinking muscle. Like most muscles, as I continue on a rigorous workout schedule, it's getting larger.

Dave47

07-23-2008, 09:08 AM

The game and people possibly being upset about it is a non-story, but what Charles says about obesity is dead on. There is a difference between being 20 lbs. or so overweight because you do nothing but eat Taco Bell and raid in WoW and being 100 lbs or more overweight despite efforts otherwise. There are a lot of people who have deep psychological issues with food and can't simply "eat better" or "exercise more".

Fat Bastard sums it up best:

"I eat because I'm unhappy and I'm unhappy because I eat."
There are lots of different reasons why someone is large, ranging from physical issues (which are impossible to change) to psychological issues (which are difficult to change) to mental issues (which are the easiest to change.)

Since it's hard to tell from external observation what someone’s explanation is, mocking their "moral failing" isn't really defensible.

Neopythia

07-23-2008, 09:15 AM

There are lots of different reasons why someone is large, ranging from physical issues (which are impossible to change) to psychological issues (which are difficult to change) to mental issues (which are the easiest to change.)

Since it's hard to tell from external observation what someone’s explanation is, mocking their "moral failing" isn't really defensible.

I completely agree. Many of us can drop a few pounds by simply changing behavior. Unless you know someone that has these issues, or suffer from them yourself, it's hard to truly understand them. I think a lot of people generalize based on their own personal experiences. It is also more socially acceptable to mock fat people so people feel more justified in doing that as opposed to going after someone of another race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Chris Nahr

07-23-2008, 09:18 AM

So do people get monstrously fat because people are giving them all those ridiculous excuses, or do people start making excuses because they see so many fatties?

Stroker Ace

07-23-2008, 09:20 AM

Mocking isn't what motivates people to lose weight though, that just reinforces bad behaviors and low self esteem (e.g. me being fat for the last ten years). What motivated me was a desire to pass on healthy attitudes to my daughter.

Viewing it as a lifestyle change - eat less, eat healthier, exercise more, sleep regularly - is more effective than "I want to look better so I will be more socially acceptable". Looking good is just a side benefit.

Stroker Ace

07-23-2008, 09:21 AM

So do people get monstrously fat because people are giving them all those ridiculous excuses, or do people start making excuses because they see so many fatties?For me it was #2. I have overweight family members who work out a lot but don't eat as well as they could, so I always assumed I'd be doomed to be overweight. I'm trying to see if I can't overcome that.

Angrycoder

07-23-2008, 09:24 AM

I don't see why fat people should get offended at anything anyone says about them. I didn't get offended by the fat remarks when I was 20 pounds overweight. Instead, I started working out at the gym, changed my diet around and stopped eating at Burger King.

If they're offended by it then by god they should just take the effort to lose some weight and stop eating junk food. If they're happy being fat, they shouldn't throw a fit every time someone 'objectifies' their obesity.

Being fat and slovenly isn't a race or a culture. It's as much a bad habit as being filthy and unkempt. I don't see any League of People Who Don't Take Showers getting mad at fictional portrayals of the homeless and the destitute.

Here in Asia we 'mock and objectify' obesity and commenting on a person's weight isn't seen as insulting. You can compliment a person for losing weight within ear shot of a fat person and not be at the receiving end of some kind of retarded lecture about your 'insensitivity'. Likewise, if a person's gained weight, you can tell them it looks bad on them and chances are they'll make an effort to lose that weight. There would be more fat people if we all went along with the 'fat acceptance' bullshit.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts when MiniDickChink Kart Racer comes out for the DS next year.

I don't know that fat people neccesarily need or want 'acceptance', as much as they just want to be left alone and not openly ridiculed.

wisefool

07-23-2008, 09:39 AM

Fatness in Asians also do NOT have the negative stigma that Americans have. In the US it is viewed as a failure of willpower and sloth. In the case of women it's General Failure.

RobotPants

07-23-2008, 09:39 AM

Hugin

07-23-2008, 09:56 AM

But certainly you can agree that just because a game features a morbidly obese person, it isn't intended to represent ALL morbidly obese people in the same way, right? I would seriously doubt Fat Princess is meant to "openly ridicule" fat people in general. Some people seem to be implying that even mentioning someone being obese is horribly evil.

I basically agree. I'm fat and Fat Princess doesn't bother me. My objections generally relate more to the way the industry overall portrays people, not that specific game. I was more annoyed by Damnation and RE: 5. And I'm generally amused/irritated that people who whine about political correctness constantly seem to place a very high value on their own freedom of speech but if others want to ever discuss sexism or racism or homophobia or whatever they get all butthurt and want everyone to shut up.

Dave47

07-23-2008, 09:58 AM

Zylon

07-23-2008, 10:00 AM

Did someone say bacon cake?

http://www.cakehead.com/archives/bacon%20cake.jpg

Reldan

07-23-2008, 10:00 AM

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts when MiniDickChink Kart Racer comes out for the DS next year.

I don't know that fat people neccesarily need or want 'acceptance', as much as they just want to be left alone and not openly ridiculed.

Give me a fucking break. Having a small penis or being Chinese is obviously a fucking life choice on par with obesity. Great analogy.

Knowing that I will over my life have to pay a substantial amount more for health care because Joe Beergut can't stop himself from gorging at McDonald's makes it my, and society as a whole's really, problem.

Stroker Ace

07-23-2008, 10:03 AM

Speaking of which, it's too bad we don't have preventative health care in this country.

Gordon Cameron

07-23-2008, 10:07 AM

I don't see why fat people should get offended at anything anyone says about them.

Because human beings, whatever their girth, deserve to be treated with some common decency.

People spend so much time railing against "political correctness" that the concept of courtesy seems to have been forgotten.

Lucidvizion

07-23-2008, 10:08 AM

I don't understand how people can expect to live a hedonistic lifestyle which ends with obvious negative physical results and expect to not be made fun of.

Fatties have been looked down upon since AT LEAST the 4th century, as referenced in the works of Evagrius Ponticus. The only thing new here is the number of fatties is growing exponentially (no pun intended).

beloved one

07-23-2008, 10:09 AM

Speaking of which, it's too bad we don't have preventative health care in this country.

Are you talking about taking away my bacon cake?

Bill Dungsroman

07-23-2008, 10:11 AM

I run a medical office that is primarily a physician-assisted weight loss clinic, as some of you know. And it's my belief, based on a fairly significant sampling of anecdotal evidence, that fatness takes all kinds.

Most of the people who come into my office (90% women, which to me merely means women might be more likely to seek external help for weight loss coupled with the social stigma attached to overweight women, certainly not that more women are fat than men) say pretty much the same thing, "Hehehe I just need to lose 15 pounds!" This is irrelevant of how much they actually need to lose. That doesn't necessarily mean they're lying or even embarrassed (it might, though) - it's my belief that body dysmorphia is a common condition in people, mostly due to the fact that it's had to judge your own body's expansion or contraction, because you have to look at it every day and it's just too hard ot notice the difference. Also, though, for some reason your mind likes to pooh-pooh the notion of it even though your pants don't fit anymore ("Stupid washing machine! Shrinking my jeans!").

Furthermore, a fairly significant percentage of patients are clearly looking for validation that there is just no way they will ever lose weight. They are uniquely, irrevocably fat in their minds. Just yesterday a lady told me she was "just always going to be a fat person." She was telling this to another patient, who not only herself has lost over 40 pounds, but her brother has lost over one hundred (he's one of a handul of patients we have with those absurd results. He's still allittle chunky even now, I mean this kid was SA goon fat when he started).

I end up hearing many of these testimonies because I make it a point of practice to speak to any patient who is not getting satisfactory results from our weight loss system (it's damned successful provided you stick to it of course). So I get patients who range from merely disappointed to in tears to (my favorite) bitter and resentful that our program "failed." I put that word in scare quotes because I read through these patients' charts and the same things always show up in them:

-Won't or can't take any of the prescribed medications. You really think you're getting our program as it was meant to be implemented without these? The phentermine makes them feel "too antsy" and the topomax "too sleepy." meds with side effects, man who knew? Since they cannot take these pills and feel nothing and melt away fat magically, they won't take them and then complain about not being able to lose weight.

-Won't exercise. Forget it. I can't tell you how many of our patients don't exercise. It's probably the saving grace of our sytem is that you can still lose weight without exercising as long as you eat right, but it'd be so goddamned easy if you did. I lost 45 pounds since February, and most of the time all I did was walk for an hour or two every other day.

-Has some magical, mysterious medical disposition the defies logic and science. I have a lady, sweet lady, love her to death, chunky as hell, claims her problem is she "Doesn't eat enough!" She's "never hungry!" She just magically puts on pounds. Oh, and, yeah, she cannot tolerate the meds nor does she exercise. Nor the diet plan. Hmm.

-I could talk some more about people who don't even get that far. Plenty of people have walked right out of the office during the pre-plan counseling appointment, based on a fairly spurious rationalizations. "Oh my God I cannot tolerate needles!" We give weekly vitamin shots, see. They aren't mandatory. Doesn't matter, out the door. Some people have flipped out when I've asked for their driver's license so I can copy it for their chart. I honestly do think some people are trying to get something going, but they're still looking for any reason to bail out on it. It's hard, I know it's hard, it's part of why we never charge a restart fee if people fall off the program.

-Only wants part of the plan but expects the full plan's results. Some people come in and only want the weekly shots. A weekly vitamin shot, now just how useful do you figure that's going to be by itself? Not very. We don't charge monthly fees, but people want to have the sign-up free pro-rated for just one week. One week.

I don't mean for this post to come off like I'm using an excuse to bitch about my job, it's just some stuff I feel is maybe relevant to this discussion. I also personally feel that while people may be okay with themselves being somehwat overweight, nobody wants to be morbidly obese, they merely refuse to accept they have something seriously wrong with themselves that needs changing. When a morbidly obese person is saying they are happy and great and ok with it, I just picture them in my head saying that they are happy and great and ok with dying at a much younger age and suffering through a much poorer quality of life in the years leading up to that untimely demise. Sure, that makes a whole lot of fucking sense.

extarbags

07-23-2008, 10:15 AM

Give me a fucking break. Having a small penis or being Chinese is obviously a fucking life choice on par with obesity. Great analogy.

Knowing that I will over my life have to pay a substantial amount more for health care because Joe Beergut can't stop himself from gorging at McDonald's makes it my, and society as a whole's really, problem.

Christ. There's no amount of fatness that is more of a burden on society as a whole than being a gigantic asshole is.

Adam Altmann

07-23-2008, 10:30 AM

http://store.theonion.com/images/get/225/thumb

Robert Sharp

07-23-2008, 10:36 AM

Thanks, Bill. That was very informative. I bet the same holds for a lot of medical issues and general lifestyle choices. We become comfortable in our habits, and it's very hard to change them. Change is pain of some sort in most cases, but especially in the case of losing weight: the pain of exercise (especially at first), the pain of not being able to eat what and when you want, etc. So we rationalize the possibility of change away, so we can avoid it.

ProStyle

07-23-2008, 10:47 AM

Only one thing makes me more giddy than enraged fatties, and that is enraged smokers. Basically, I am waiting for an enraged fatty smoker to come in here and blow the doors off the room. /crosses fingers

Aeon221

07-23-2008, 10:49 AM

Christ. There's no amount of fatness that is more of a burden on society as a whole than being a gigantic asshole is.

Except in airplanes.

extarbags

07-23-2008, 10:51 AM

Except in airplanes.

You may not have ever been on an airplane with a gigantic asshole. Granted, the fat problem is more... immediate... in that context, but if someone is a truly huge jerk-off, the fatty is preferable.

Jason McCullough

07-23-2008, 10:55 AM

Perhaps they can make a game where you stab needles in HIV+ teenagers to make them die faster, and be immune to criticism. After all, HIV comes from a hedonistic lifestyle that should expect to be made fun of!

Joel

07-23-2008, 11:02 AM

ProStyle

07-23-2008, 11:09 AM

Perhaps they can make a game where you stab needles in HIV+ teenagers to make them die faster
In the land of medieval vector graphics you can ransom a fat princess, but you can't ransom an infected burnout junkie. Not to mention the pharmacological retconning required by such an approach, it would be sure to throw the Fat Princess canon legions into a hurf druf butter eating frenzy!

gordonrumble

07-23-2008, 11:20 AM

Thanks for the info Bill. My father is a surgeon who deals primarily in knee and hip replacements, which are very common in the obese. As such, I've heard all the stories.

From what I can see, weight discrimination isn't like racial or gender discrimination, because it isn't based on circumstances that the individual cannot control (and race and gender doesn't say anything about the individual). Obesity is a problem based on internal factors. The obese person will make all kinds of excuses (parents, fast food marketing, depression, genetics, physical handicap, etc), but in the end the decision to put food into your mouth is one that is entirely up you you. It could be harder for a fat person to not eat; I don't really know either way, nor does anyone else. I also recognize that overeating is a tougher problem to solve than say drug addiction, because you can't just quit eating.

I do know that when someone is fat, it invariably says something about them, which is that they cannot control their eating, and to a lesser extent do not exercise. It's a reasonable extension of that knowledge to assume that they are therefore undisciplined in other aspects of their lives, which is a negative that they will be judged on. It's also socially irresponsible, since they eat too much food and use too much medicare.

Objectively, an eating problem isn't any worse than a drinking problem, but the fact that it's so obvious makes it worse. Fat people are never going to be accepted as equal to thin people in society, for better or for worse, and the push of political correctness isn't going to solve anything. Only a culture where obesity is truly unnaceptable would solve this, since fat people would never have gotten fat.

Frankly though this manufactured news has simply caused a storm in a teacup. I look forward to playing this game, as it looks really, really fun.

WarrenM

07-23-2008, 11:30 AM

I don't understand how people can expect to live a hedonistic lifestyle which ends with obvious negative physical results and expect to not be made fun of.
Why is it a hednostic lifestyle? There are a lot of reasons why the average waistline is expanding and hedonism and/or laziness are only a part of the picture. The others are things like diet (as in the Western diet), HFCS, etc.

André Costa

07-23-2008, 11:36 AM

Stop trying to apply this PC shit you seem to live happily (or not) over there to the rest of the world.

In Europe you can make jokes about fat people and call them fat besides at the work place that's why I wondered if you can make those comments at work or not in Singapore.

Stop trying to apply your retarded point of view to the rest of us Europeans.

Jason McMaster

07-23-2008, 11:42 AM

Why is it a hednostic lifestyle? There are a lot of reasons why the average waistline is expanding and hedonism and/or laziness are only a part of the picture. The others are things like diet (as in the Western diet), HFCS, etc.

Because it's easier to be a prick and spout off about how all fat people are lazy and eat too much. Why would you actually look at a problem before shouting out something "hilarious?"

beloved one

07-23-2008, 11:46 AM

There are a lot of reasons why the average waistline is expanding and hedonism and/or laziness are only a part of the picture. The others are things like diet (as in the Western diet), HFCS, etc.

The relationship between hedonism and rich foods is gluttony. People eat fatty, sugary foods because of short term pleasures of sugar highs and pleasant tastes. Making choices with the primary concern being the pleasure that can be derived is the definition of hedonism.

flyinj

07-23-2008, 11:57 AM

The most fascinating aspect of this thread is now I know who is fat and who isn't on Qt3.

GatInDaHat

07-23-2008, 11:58 AM

Hey fat people are beautiful too! (ok they're not)

Tim Partlett

07-23-2008, 11:58 AM

Christ. There's no amount of fatness that is more of a burden on society as a whole than being a gigantic asshole is.

Hey, being an asshole might be a result of deep psychological issues, or a manifestation of terrible physical pain.

Zylon

07-23-2008, 11:58 AM

Because it's easier to be a prick and spout off about how all fat people are lazy and eat too much. Why would you actually look at a problem before shouting out something "hilarious?"
I'm lazy AND I eat too much! Fortunately I'm not as fat as I by all rights should be, considering how many burgers and tacos I go through.

Jason McMaster

07-23-2008, 12:00 PM

Hey, being an asshole might be a result of deep psychological issues, or a manifestation of terrible physical pain.

to quote "A Fish Called Wanda":
Wanda: I'm sorry about my brother, Ken. I know he's insensitive. He's had a hard life. Dad used to beat him up.

Ken: Good.

Jason McMaster

07-23-2008, 12:01 PM

I'm lazy AND I eat too much! Fortunately I'm not as fat as I by all rights should be, considering how many burgers and tacos I go through.

Well, I mean, tacos ARE delicious

RobotPants

07-23-2008, 12:11 PM

Because human beings, whatever their girth, deserve to be treated with some common decency.

People spend so much time railing against "political correctness" that the concept of courtesy seems to have been forgotten.

But you're going outside the situation here. The game in question doesn't belittle all fat people. Just one giant princess who's large enough as to not be able to leave the room she's in. I don't follow how fat people as a whole can be offended by that any more than I, as a white guy, can be offended by a white guy doing reprehensible things in a game. Why people see one person represented in something and assume it's a shot at ALL people who belong to the same group is beyond me.

Stroker Ace

07-23-2008, 12:14 PM

Maybe the game should be named "wider than a doorway princess" then.

Neopythia

07-23-2008, 12:21 PM

But you're going outside the situation here. The game in question doesn't belittle all fat people. Just one giant princess who's large enough as to not be able to leave the room she's in. I don't follow how fat people as a whole can be offended by that any more than I, as a white guy, can be offended by a white guy doing reprehensible things in a game. Why people see one person represented in something and assume it's a shot at ALL people who belong to the same group is beyond me.

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that having issues with the game is fairly nonsensical. It's a game after all and you're right we do far worse things in other games. I'd put the GTA treatment and portrayal of women as a far worse message than Fat Princess. Although it's interesting to wonder if anyone would have had a complaint if it was called "Fat King".

The issue of obesity and self-control is a far more interesting one. I liked Gordon's analogy to a drinking or drug problem. Food is as much of an addiction for many people. I have a friend trying to wrestle with it and it's not an easy process. It's about changing a behavior that has been prevelent since childhood. People should be thankful that it's not an issue for them or that they are male and society really doesn't care if they're overweight.

ProStyle

07-23-2008, 12:22 PM

Amazingly enough all these bad analogies gloss over the fact that, technically, the only people who should be upset by this game are those who are abducted and held against their will while being force-fed until their asses balloon outward to the point where 16 men cannot carry them to safety.

Unless you're being prepped Buffalo Bill style for a skinsuit fate, with fried chickens and lotions lowered in a basket daily, you can probably skip the outrage on this one. If you are under such circumstances, and you have access to the internet, you should probably contact law enforcement before making a shitty blog post about the crushing indifference of the world at large.

Rock8man

07-23-2008, 12:25 PM

RobotPants

07-23-2008, 12:27 PM

Oh, I see. In that case, I'll just express my own disappointment in myself for not quoting ProStyle's "friend chickens" typo before he was able to fix it. :(

Creole Ned

07-23-2008, 12:35 PM

I was trying to figure out what a "friend chicken" implied.

Were there howls of outrage back when Activision released Tongue of the Fatman?

A lot of people are fat because of poor lifestyle choices -- eating Ding Dongs and not exercising but picking on individuals because of that is not really a cool thing to do. The "storm" over Fat Princess is just dumb, though, especially given the premise of the game.

A few months ago I was told I was pre-diabetic and had to exercise more, lose weight and eat better. After a few moments of "lol wut" I made a plan and I've since lost 11 pounds off my belly, improved my stamina and eat way better than I have in the last 20 years. But if I become a zealot that goes around saying things like "Lay off the Twinkies, fatty" I'd like someone to kick me in my newly svelte butt.

ProStyle

07-23-2008, 12:51 PM

I'll just express my own disappointment in myself for not quoting ProStyle's "friend chickens" typo before he was able to fix it. :(
I commend you on your vigilance, and grant that next time I will likely not be so fortunate to escape your typo quoting ways.

Did anyone here play Fast Food (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Food_(Atari_2600))?

The transitions between speeds are indicated by the text "YOU'RE GETTING FATTER!"

Awesome, but probably not as awesome as a friend chicken!

http://chicken.planetquake.gamespy.com/images/shot2.jpg

Pogo

07-23-2008, 12:54 PM

Fucking fatties.

WarrenM

07-23-2008, 12:55 PM

Maybe the game should be named "wider than a doorway princess" then.
Maybe you could run around with a John Candy cut out instead.

Damien Neil

07-23-2008, 12:58 PM

Objectively, an eating problem isn't any worse than a drinking problem, but the fact that it's so obvious makes it worse.

Yeah, being a lardass is any worse than coming home at two in the morning drop-dead drunk and beating up your wife. Or being shit-faced at your desk at one in the afternoon. Or failing out of college because you spent your freshman year drunk. Or having one for the road and driving over a bicyclist on your way home.

But, hey. Being a drunk doesn't show. And isn't presenting an aesthetically pleasing body what's really important to all of us?

Charles

07-23-2008, 12:59 PM

The relationship between hedonism and rich foods is gluttony. People eat fatty, sugary foods because of short term pleasures of sugar highs and pleasant tastes. Making choices with the primary concern being the pleasure that can be derived is the definition of hedonism.

I decided long ago that I'd accept being overweight, within limits, in order to continue to enjoy the foods and drinks I love. This doesn't bother me.

People call me overweight, I call myself happy. That being said, I'm not going to freak out over fiction that satirizes insanely fat people, because there is a point at which you really need to re-evaluate things. Personally, I'm slightly heavier than I can enjoy, so I'm working on fixing it.

But being overweight, within limits, isn't something that should be considered worthy of rudeness and insults any more than most other choices in life.

Pogo

07-23-2008, 01:01 PM

Yeah, being a lardass is any worse than coming home at two in the morning drop-dead drunk and beating up your wife. Or being shit-faced at your desk at one in the afternoon. Or failing out of college because you spent your freshman year drunk. Or having one for the road and driving over a bicyclist on your way home.

But, hey. Being a drunk doesn't show. And isn't presenting an aesthetically pleasing body what's really important to all of us?

Way to twist his words, buddy. Good job. You told him.

Jason McMaster

07-23-2008, 01:11 PM

Way to twist his words, buddy. Good job. You told him.

I'm a touch confused as to how he twisted this statement:

Objectively, an eating problem isn't any worse than a drinking problem, but the fact that it's so obvious makes it worse.

As it looks like a valid response to me.

Lucidvizion

07-23-2008, 01:20 PM

I'm a touch confused as to how he twisted this statement:

Objectively, an eating problem isn't any worse than a drinking problem, but the fact that it's so obvious makes it worse.

As it looks like a valid response to me.

No it isn't. He said a "drinking problem."

Not a domestic violence problem, not a drinking at work problem, not a failing out of college problem, nor a manslaughter problem.

It's a straw man.

Robert Sharp

07-23-2008, 01:20 PM

No. Damien made the quote into "being fat is worse than having a drinking problem," when the quote was "being fat ISN'T worse than having a drinking problem." The rest of the original post was just saying that obesity is more obvious because you can't always see that someone is an alcoholic.

Jason McMaster

07-23-2008, 01:21 PM

the tacked on end of the sentence changes it to worse, though.

beloved one

07-23-2008, 01:43 PM

-Won't or can't take any of the prescribed medications. You really think you're getting our program as it was meant to be implemented without these? The phentermine makes them feel "too antsy" and the topomax "too sleepy."

I was surprised to read Topomax in your list, as I had an epileptic girlfriend who took it for that condition. Just writing off side effect complaints as people bitching they are "too sleepy" strikes me as being very flippant. The girl had to go through pretty much every med that comes out, a whole slew of brain cocktails, and topomax was her least favorite for side effects.

More than just making you "too sleepy", it makes you "too stupid". Frequently nicknamed, "Dopomax", it's very frustrating to see someone you care about is now prone to walking into rooms and forgetting what they came there for, having to have things re-explained to them, and just made dumber in general. Yeah, weight loss was also a side effect, but given how many drug changes (and hence long days wasted by epileptic seizures) she was willing to endure to get away from Topomax's side effects, it doesn't surprise me one bit that you get backlash against it.

Maybe I am out of line, but honestly I feel some reproach that you aren't more compassionate and understanding of your patients regarding side effects and quality of life. Writing off topomax's side effects (and side effects in general) as people bitching about being too sleepy, is like describing weight issues in terms of people saving money on jeans.

Stroker Ace

07-23-2008, 01:48 PM

I'm sure it's hard for Bill not to get jaded when so many of his customers have endless excuses for staying fat. Sort of like how it's hard for cops not to mentally associate criminal behavior with lower-income ethnicities based on their experiences.

Sol Invictus

07-23-2008, 01:49 PM

You must be a real joy to be around.
Hey now, I have fat (and I mean really obese) friends whom I don't abuse.

Jason McMaster

07-23-2008, 01:50 PM

Yeah, seriously, every day bill has to tell people to stop being hedonists that constantly eat candy and probably burn your actual tax dollars to fuel their cooking surfaces.

Damien Neil

07-23-2008, 02:32 PM

No it isn't. He said a "drinking problem."

Not a domestic violence problem, not a drinking at work problem, not a failing out of college problem, nor a manslaughter problem.

What do you think a drinking problem is?

Drinking isn't a problem until it starts to affect your life. Once it does start affecting your life, the results are far worse than obesity. Being fat doesn't make people drop out of college, lose their job, abuse their family, or operate heavy machinery in an impaired state. Alcohol abuse can do all of those things.

You can live a happy, productive life while fat. You can't with a drinking problem--because, again, if you're living a happy, productive life, your drinking clearly isn't a problem.

Comparing the two is utterly absurd, and saying that being fat is "objectively no worse" than having a drinking problem shows a ridiculously out-of-proportion sense of the problems with obesity.

Kunikos

07-23-2008, 02:36 PM

I like cake.

Pie is the true savior. (But only berry)

Stroker Ace

07-23-2008, 03:01 PM

Cheese > Pie

NoWayJose

07-23-2008, 03:05 PM

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts when MiniDickChink Kart Racer comes out for the DS next year.
That sounds awesome. I'll pick up a DS to play that.

The Chinese Lawyer

07-23-2008, 03:18 PM

hehehe would it be comparatively funny to play NerdyFatWhiteProgrammer on your PSP? Sometimes I am disappointed in you.

Funkula

07-23-2008, 03:27 PM

What do you think a drinking problem is?

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/7800/473292404a6eef874c6jt6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

merryprankster

07-23-2008, 04:04 PM

Fat people who don't like being thought of as fat should spend more time working out and less time bitching. Very few people don't have a choice and I have no sympathy for people who don't take care of themselves then bitch about how the world reacts to them.

Cossix

07-23-2008, 04:06 PM

I love that this thread is pulling all these people out of the woodwork to chime in with their wonderful opinion on fat people.

Kadath

07-23-2008, 04:06 PM

Fly if you are keeping a list you can add me to the obese column. Despite having bariatric surgery. Despite walking 5 days a week. Despite taking my prescribed meds. As someone who has tried a million diets and had some success with the surgery I can say that it's not a silver bullet. It might take away the ability to eat but it sure doesnt cure the desire or the pleasure when one does.

I do agree with Cossix, the 'cure' opinions presented here are almost as disturbing as the mockery.

As the reasons for obesity are different for everyone, I can tell you mine is partly boredom, partly habit, partly psychological and emotional, and partly a brain tumor with a dash of genetics tossed in for good measure. Addressing each of those requires specific measures and I sure wouldnt want to use my own experiences to try to blanket statement how others can help themselves. The fact that people with no personal experience think that THEY can and should is something I find incredibly sad, and a bit frightening. Even Bill, who clearly has a duty to help people with this condition seems to have no base human respect for them because of their failings which they have accumulated over a lifetime and which his office holds out some hope. Tragic.

Does fat princess make me mad? No but I AM ashamed FOR the developers who think this is a funny concept and all the idiots, many of whom appear to even be in this thread, who think that weight loss must be easy for everyone cause "Hey -I- dropped ten whole pounds without even trying, how hard can it be?" I respect the devs rights to express themselves artistically, and hell without seeing the game myself this could be some kind of bizarre parody that is designed to expose the very crap that this thread has dredged up. I also think that its a bit sad that common courtesy is out the window these days, but in the end if I have to choose between free speech and courtesy I will go with Free Speech every time. That doesnt mean I have to support or respect those who I find insulting tho. And without having played the game I don't even know if the final game IS insulting or not, yet.

Kadath

07-23-2008, 04:06 PM

stupid iPod keyboard

NoWayJose

07-23-2008, 04:13 PM

I love that this thread is pulling all these people out of the woodwork to chime in with their wonderful opinion on fat people.
Yeah, we're not all somber posters like you, Cossix, who have a big investment in this stupid game. Why can't we get serious for a change?

Cossix

07-23-2008, 04:17 PM

I don't think there's any controversy on the game?

This is just a kind of hilarious thread with people chiming in on their views of fat people, both vitriolic and overly apologetic. It's just silly.

I didn't even talk about the game at all. I don't know where you got the idea that I was some sort of rabid defender of Fat Princess. I just think this thread is mostly terrible.

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-23-2008, 04:22 PM

beloved one

07-23-2008, 04:25 PM

I just think this thread is mostly terrible.

Not if you view it as some extended artistic self-parody... A thread entitled Fatties enraged by "Fat Princess" is less a news item, and more a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Pogo

07-23-2008, 04:29 PM

I don't see why fat people should get offended at anything anyone says about them. I didn't get offended by the fat remarks when I was 20 pounds overweight. Instead, I started working out at the gym, changed my diet around and stopped eating at Burger King.
etc...

My apologies for linking from page one, but you basically just took your OP and threw your original thread discussion out the window. Instead of pretending to make a thread about a computer game that is receiving controversy only by a small group of people (which of course Kotaku jumps on and publicizes it making it 500x bigger than it actually is), why didn't you just come out and say that you disagree with everybody who would attempt to defend the viewpoint that the degree in which an overweight person can control his weight varies wildly by context?

So now here's the x^n thread about fat people and what's wrong with them. You probably could have just necro'd the Wii Fit thread.

idrisz

07-23-2008, 04:31 PM

I think fat people have the right to be fat if they want, but then other should have the rights to laugh and make fun of them.

live and let live.

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-23-2008, 04:34 PM

Why is it a hednostic lifestyle? There are a lot of reasons why the average waistline is expanding and hedonism and/or laziness are only a part of the picture. The others are things like diet (as in the Western diet), HFCS, etc.

The whole idea of HFCS being a problem is absurd. Sugar molecules are sugar molecules are sugar molecules. Most every biochemist finds this whole "blame corn syrup" meme really strange. On average, you gain weight when you take in more calories than you expend. The End.

KallDrexx

07-23-2008, 04:46 PM

On average, you gain weight when you take in more calories than you expend. The End.

Um no?

Sorry, I can name 10 friends of mine who eat a shitload more then me and yet are much thinner than me (and they aren't as active as me). It is a LOT more complicated then "eat less calories than you expend." It has a lot more to do with genetics, your metabolism, how you match up proteins during meals, and a lot of other factors, not all of which are controllable.

Reldan

07-23-2008, 04:52 PM

Christ. There's no amount of fatness that is more of a burden on society as a whole than being a gigantic asshole is.

I used to be fat - 250 lbs on a 5'11" frame, and it sure as hell wasn't muscle. A few years ago I chose to change my life and began to exercise and made a radical change to my diet. Over a year I moved down to 180 lbs and I've stayed at or around that weight for the last three years.

I was fat because I chose a lifestyle that included eating whatever the fuck I wanted whenever I wanted it and had practically no physical activity beyond the bare minimum necessary for day to day living. In retrospect, there was a fuckton of rationalization going on to justify this behavior for a number of years (I didn't "magically" become fat overnight).

I just do not have sympathy. I've walked in those shoes, and made the necessary sacrifices and changes to improve things. You can call me an asshole for that. I draw a very strict line in terms of PCness between things that are life choices (religion, obesity) and things that are not (race, sexual orientation) and it pisses me off when people conflate the two as though they were one and the same.

Pogo

07-23-2008, 04:55 PM

Um no?

Sorry, I can name 10 friends of mine who eat a shitload more then me and yet are much thinner than me (and they aren't as active as me). It is a LOT more complicated then "eat less calories than you expend." It has a lot more to do with genetics, your metabolism, how you match up proteins during meals, and a lot of other factors, not all of which are controllable.

That is true. I'm a skinny person but I eat as much as my friends who are the same height and about 30-40 lb heavier then myself. They always remark about how much I eat whenever we're at a diner or wherever, and really my only explanation is that I'm fairly active, but also have a high metabolism. I've never gotten heavier from periods of inactivity.

PeterK

07-23-2008, 04:56 PM

Pie is the true savior. (But only berry)

"Pie can't compete. You put candles in a cake, it's a birthday cake. You put candles in a pie, someone's drunk in the kitchen."

Skorin

07-23-2008, 04:59 PM

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-23-2008, 05:20 PM

Aeon221

07-23-2008, 05:25 PM

I wish I had a picture of me giving a shit. Daaaaayum. We get the same thread every time the word fat comes up in a discussion.

"My friends are magically fatter/thinner/greener thanks to no fault of their own!!"

"I lost forty pounds thanks to not eating like a hippo!!!"

"Work out moar fattiez!!"

"Guyez, making fun of fatties is wroooooooong!!!"

"Someone saved my life to-" wait, that's Elton John.

////\\( **,..,** )//\\\\ ASCII Art Spider sez enuff.

NoWayJose

07-23-2008, 05:41 PM

////\\( **,..,** )//\\\\ ASCII Art Spider sez enuff.
Saying "enough" doesn't work for fatties.

Union Carbide

07-23-2008, 05:42 PM

The whole idea of HFCS being a problem is absurd. Sugar molecules are sugar molecules are sugar molecules. Most every biochemist finds this whole "blame corn syrup" meme really strange. On average, you gain weight when you take in more calories than you expend. The End.

Except high fructose corn syrup can contain up to twice as much fructose as the product of the hydrolysis of the equivalent amount of sucrose. Fructose can only be processed in the liver (as opposed to glucose, which can be processed directly by the cells of your body), and contributes greatly to the production of triglycerides.

Triglycerides are then incorporated into very low density lipoproteins, which are released by the liver and transported by the bloodstream to be stored in fat and muscle cells.

It's also theorized that bypassing the body's hydrolysis of sucrose may short-circuit the body's limiter on fructose absorbtion by the small intestine, which is a process that's not terribly well understood.

SwampIrish

07-23-2008, 06:01 PM

to quote "A Fish Called Wanda":
Wanda: I'm sorry about my brother, Ken. I know he's insensitive. He's had a hard life. Dad used to beat him up.

Ken: Good.

It's K-K-Ken c-c-coming to k-k-kill me.

BobJustBob

07-23-2008, 08:19 PM

Fucking fatties.

You know what's worse? Fatty furries.

Sol Invictus

07-23-2008, 08:27 PM

Um no?

Sorry, I can name 10 friends of mine who eat a shitload more then me and yet are much thinner than me (and they aren't as active as me). It is a LOT more complicated then "eat less calories than you expend." It has a lot more to do with genetics, your metabolism, how you match up proteins during meals, and a lot of other factors, not all of which are controllable.

All that says to me is that if your metabolism is slow, and your body is predisposed to absorbing more calories than normal, you should probably eat a lot less than your friends do instead of trying to compete with them in the Face-stuffing Olympics.

Cossix

07-23-2008, 08:28 PM

Maybe someone should make a post about how this game is RACIST too because the princess is white AND ARE THEY SAYING THAT ONLY WHITE PEOPLE GET FAT

Then we can talk about racism in video games AND fat people.

beloved one

07-23-2008, 08:58 PM

Except high fructose corn syrup can contain up to twice as much fructose as the product of the hydrolysis of the equivalent amount of sucrose. Fructose can only be processed in the liver (as opposed to glucose, which can be processed directly by the cells of your body), and contributes greatly to the production of triglycerides.

Triglycerides are then incorporated into very low density lipoproteins, which are released by the liver and transported by the bloodstream to be stored in fat and muscle cells.

Stored OR burned for energy as needed. The only thing you've outlined here, is that HFC contains less efficient calories, because they must first be converted to triglycerides, rather than used directly by cells.

Sucrose process: Sucrose -> Energy for cells
Fructose process: Fructose -> Triglycerides -> Energy for cells

People are so absurd... if the body needs energy, and triglycerides are around, it will use them, if there is glucose it will use it too. If you don't need glucose, it gets stored in fat, the same as if you don't use triglycerides, they get stored in fat.

Union Carbide

07-23-2008, 09:23 PM

Sucrose process: Sucrose -> Energy for cells
Fructose process: Fructose -> Triglycerides -> Energy for cells

That's wrong, actually. it's:

SUCROSE + glycoside hydrolase -> Glucose (absorbed in the stomach) -> Energy for cells
|->Fructose (absorbed in the small intestine) -> Triglycerides -> vLDL -> Energy for cells

vs

Glucose (absorbed in the stomach) -> Energy for cells
up to 200% Fructose (absorbed in the small intestine) -> Triglycerides
-> vLDL -> Energy for cellsSo, for the equivalent intake of sucrose and HFCS, up to 2x as much fructose gets converted to vLDL (that's the BAD cholesterol) when HFCS is consumed. Since it takes longer to get processed into a useable state by the liver, generally more of the body's energy needs are met by the initial flood of glucose absorbed in the stomach, leaving the vLDL to be deposited as fat.

Further, it isn't well understood yet how HFCS bypassing the hydrolysis by glycoside hydrolase affects the uptake of both glucose and fructose.

Note that I'm not saying that eating all the sucrose you want is healthy, I'm just saying that HFCS is provably worse.

Personally I try to avoid sugary drinks anyway.

Bill Dungsroman

07-23-2008, 09:39 PM

I was surprised to read Topomax in your list, as I had an epileptic girlfriend who took it for that condition. Just writing off side effect complaints as people bitching they are "too sleepy" strikes me as being very flippant. The girl had to go through pretty much every med that comes out, a whole slew of brain cocktails, and topomax was her least favorite for side effects.

More than just making you "too sleepy", it makes you "too stupid". Frequently nicknamed, "Dopomax", it's very frustrating to see someone you care about is now prone to walking into rooms and forgetting what they came there for, having to have things re-explained to them, and just made dumber in general. Yeah, weight loss was also a side effect, but given how many drug changes (and hence long days wasted by epileptic seizures) she was willing to endure to get away from Topomax's side effects, it doesn't surprise me one bit that you get backlash against it.

Maybe I am out of line, but honestly I feel some reproach that you aren't more compassionate and understanding of your patients regarding side effects and quality of life. Writing off topomax's side effects (and side effects in general) as people bitching about being too sleepy, is like describing weight issues in terms of people saving money on jeans.

The dosages we prescribe are a fraction of what is prescribed for treatment of seizures or anxiety or any of the other medical conditions topomax is or has been used to treat. I'm literally talking 1/16th the dosage. We also direct patients to take it within 4 hours before going to bed. Are you telling me that if you were overweight, you'd pass on a drug that curbs appetite in general and the craving of carbs and sweets in particular because it might help you go to sleep better? This is where I'm coming from with my original statement.

You're free to make any judgments or assumptions you like about how I regard or treat the patients at my clinic, I can't stop you. All I can say is that I truly love what I do and believe in it, and I don't think people who are overweight should just be slapped across the face and told to drop the pie. I fell terrible for people who are overweight. Losing weight requires a person to ignore a basic vital drive for life, the hunger drive. Fat people feel it just as much as thin or average-sized people, being fat doesn't make you feel fuller all the time or anything. It's brutal, your brain screams at you to eat even when you shouldn't. Stress makes it worse, so the very stress of trying to diet itself is a force feedback loop that just makes it even harder. It requires sacrifice and serious life readjustment and the people around you are rarely supportive because people just aren't very supportive of the people around them for a variety of reasons that I don't even want to bother going into.

Tom McNamara

07-23-2008, 10:02 PM

Bill Dungsroman

07-23-2008, 10:18 PM

The whole idea of HFCS being a problem is absurd.

Wrong. Are you for fucking real? It most definitely is a problem.

Sugar molecules are sugar molecules are sugar molecules.

Wrong again. You eat a bag of pure glucose vs. a bag of pure fructose and we'll just see about your little theorem there.

Most every biochemist finds this whole "blame corn syrup" meme really strange.

If you mean "just blame corn syrup" then sure, however it's most definitely on the hit list. Why would you even argue this point?

On average, you gain weight when you take in more calories than you expend. The End.

Not the end. Non-glucose sweeteners have been theorized to have a variety of effects on the body. Carbide mentioned some of them, I would add a recent one that suggests certain sweeteners may cause an increase in hunger/craving centers for sugar when ingested, as opposed to pure sugar, which does not. I refer back to your first two sentences (the second one especially) with this. Also, you really don't know any biochemists.

Bill Dungsroman

07-23-2008, 10:22 PM

BillD, considering your line of work, I'm curious about your take on Atkins. Whenever I mention the success I had with it, someone always seems to chime in with "STFU, calories are calories. Just exercise and you'll burn more of them, case closed."

Atkins works! Provided you stick to it and be very careful with it. Therein of course is the problem with it: people rarely stick to it or they go overboard with it. My biochemistry professor was on it,probably still it. Actually, he's been on it before Atkins "invented" it. He thought it up himself (or claims to, I suppose he could have been lying, he didn't seem the type). It's not a diet I can recommend, it carries such a high level of required fidelity to make work. But again, it does work. It's biochemically rock-solid, really.

Tom McNamara

07-23-2008, 10:35 PM

Atkins works! Provided you stick to it and be very careful with it. Therein of course is the problem with it: people rarely stick to it or they go overboard with it. My biochemistry professor was on it,probably still it. Actually, he's been on it before Atkins "invented" it. He thought it up himself (or claims to, I suppose he could have been lying, he didn't seem the type). It's not a diet I can recommend, it carries such a high level of required fidelity to make work. But again, it does work. It's biochemically rock-solid, really.

Yeah, I think the obstacle to success is absorbing the reading material and understanding the importance of fiber and hydration. Followed closely by staying under the 20-gram limit for the first couple weeks. Well, it's good to know that I'm not crazy. I knew there was something to ketosis.

Tankero

07-23-2008, 10:38 PM

And the risks of the Atkins diet?

Sol Invictus

07-23-2008, 10:40 PM

What risks?

Tankero

07-23-2008, 10:49 PM

According to this (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1700):

Dehydration, initially, as well as a whole slew of other problems (though stemming from fat/protein foods).

Union Carbide

07-23-2008, 10:50 PM

Well, ketosis does cause some pretty nasty halitosis.

I suppose what Tankero's worried about is the high cholesterol from an all meat diet. However, there's plenty of ways to get lots of protein that don't require eating 10 pounds of bacon and red meat like a goon at Wendy's.

Tom McNamara

07-24-2008, 12:24 AM

According to this (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1700):

Dehydration, initially, as well as a whole slew of other problems (though stemming from fat/protein foods).

Odd -- that essay is about Atkins but starts with a breathless, ham-fisted and misleading proclamation from Sugar-Busters, a program that uses a different model and has no business connection to the Atkins people. You can check out the Atkins book's jacket copy (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1590770021/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link) on Amazon for yourself. It takes a very different approach. Yes, he's a salesman at times, but it never devolves into a crass infomercial.

Sol Invictus

07-24-2008, 12:30 AM

Couldn't you just drink a lot of water to off-set the supposed dehydration?

Tankero

07-24-2008, 12:31 AM

Those were my concerns; I was having a parallel conversation about this with someone else. They expressed concerns, I echoed them here, and google'd what they were talking about.

Of course, not being familiar with the subject...

Pogo

07-24-2008, 12:51 AM

You know what's worse? Fatty furries.

Fuckin' furry artists.

krise madsen

07-24-2008, 01:54 AM

Unless you're being prepped Buffalo Bill style for a skinsuit fate, with fried chickens and lotions lowered in a basket daily, you can probably skip the outrage on this one. If you are under such circumstances, and you have access to the internet, you should probably contact law enforcement before making a shitty blog post about the crushing indifference of the world at large.

"Buffalo Bill: The Game". That would be fucking awesome.

Respectfully

krise madsen

Equis

07-24-2008, 03:24 AM

He stated it's a cultural thing in Asia and seems to be perfectly acceptable over there. He seems to be from Singapore or at least lives there right now. It's not rude in the culture he is surrounded by obviously.

It is, at least for the massively obese. I don't know about Sol's experience, but the general Singaporean take offense at plenty of things. Fat jokes being one of them. It isn't ok to make fun of them wantonly, unless they're you're friends and already ok with that.

The flip side is that being Asian, we really don't get a lot of fat people. Plump maybe, chubby definitely, but obesity is something of a non-existent problem here. The sheer peer pressure of being well-proportioned is enough to cause people to consider their appearances.

But there's a truth in that a lot of Singaporeans won't react the same way to an insult an American would. While an american might get angry, splutter and demand some sort of litigious recrimination, the average Singapore would darken his brow and walk away, not wasting his time with someone who'd bother to insult them. Or they'd yell really loudly in Hokkien and threaten you impotently. Few will write about it and demand apologies though.

MarinusWA

07-24-2008, 04:19 AM

All this talk about the importance of willpower and looking for excuses reminds me of this.

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fail71.jpg

WarrenM

07-24-2008, 04:36 AM

I would add a recent one that suggests certain sweeteners may cause an increase in hunger/craving centers for sugar when ingested, as opposed to pure sugar, which does not.
This is what I've read as well. The body tastes something sweet, doesn't get actually GET any sugar, and then ups the cravings because it didn't get what it needed. This leads to more eating and moar fat.

I've been using pure cane sugar for a few months now rather than our usual Splenda and I haven't gained any weight. I've actually lost a bunch. You really do have to give your body what it wants - which is food and not chemical replacements.

gordonrumble

07-24-2008, 05:45 AM

intruder

07-24-2008, 06:00 AM

It might seem callous, but whenever I get hungry, I just do something else until it goes away. Maybe I haven't developed the habit of being a slave to my stomach, but it only gets food when I feel like it. I've never had any problems with my weight, and actually find it really easy to satisfy hunger in just a few bites. Eat a granola bar and the physical sensation of hunger is gone in about twenty minutes; everything beyond that seem to me to be indulgence. After all, it's extremely easy in a way to not eat, in that it takes less work than eating.

What I don't get is why overweight people don't just buy premade meals and eat only those. With an absolutely fixed amount of calories, you are guaranteed to lose weight. After all, huger strikers always lose weight, right? If they cheat on their diet (diets are permanent, not temporary, right?) then I won't blame society, or chemicals, or marketing or whatever, I'll blame them for failing a clear and relatively simple goal.

Or they could get stomach stapling, that's a forced diet plan.

I think you have to keep in mind that eating to these people is not simply "calorie intake to keep the body up and running". It's often related to personal issues, state of mind etc. that bothers that person.

For me eating was a way to cope with stress and frustration at my work.
Every time someone from our headquarter had pissed me off by phone or email I went to the snack "bar" and got some candy.
Chocolate soothed my mind and calmed me down.
On the way home I picked up some more sweets to be able to "relax" from work. This combined with a lot of travel where mostly fast food was the only thing available + sweets in the offices I visited didn't help at all.
To top it off I was raiding in World of Warcraft and during those hours I ordered some pizza or something alike to be able to play while eating and not lose time being "afk". Being single and having no one to tell me to stop eating this shit was also a factor.
I only managed to lose weight massively after being able to stop the connection: pissed off = eat something.
Instead nowadays I don't care anymore about those stupid fucks.
I care about leaving work on-time and getting my money at the end of the month.
Instead I focus my attention to my work-out and well being.
I didn't eat that much when I was fat I simply ate the wrong shit (always lots of sugar + fat) and didn't work out.

Sol Invictus

07-24-2008, 06:01 AM

Thing is, nobody's going to throw a fit if you make a remark about how they've gained weight over here. I mean, yeah, they'd get pissed off if some random stranger called em fatty mcfatty but nobody's going to go on a tirade about how FAT IS BEAUTIFUL if you remark that they've been gaining a few pounds. You might get called 'insensitive' if you said something like that to an American regardless of your good intentions.

KallDrexx

07-24-2008, 06:04 AM

What I don't get is why overweight people don't just buy premade meals and eat only those. With an absolutely fixed amount of calories, you are guaranteed to lose weight.

I wouldn't do that for a few reasons. First is that method is freaking expensive, and a lot of packaged meals aren't exactly the healthiest thing to have around. The second is that just because you had a meal doesn't mean you won't get hungry and go get a snack not too long after.

Personally, I've lost a decent amount of weight just eating healthier foods as well as eating more often throughout the day. I always have a bag of nuts or some sort of trail mix with me at work that I snack on throughout the day to keep my metabolism going. Losing weight is more about countering what brought the weight on to begin with (in my case it's a slow metabolism) so even though I'm eating more then before as a whole, I'm losing weight because my metabolism is more active.

WarrenM

07-24-2008, 06:27 AM

Yeah, I've lost close to 40 pounds this year simply by switching to shopping at the farmers market and by reading labels to make sure that what I'm eating is food. It's amazing what a difference that makes. Plus, I feel SO much healthier. I'm stronger and much more focused on whatever task I have in front of me.

Brian Seiler

07-24-2008, 06:34 AM

But again, it [Atkins] does work. It's biochemically rock-solid, really.

I thought that on a recent SGU the group discussed this and brought up a number of studies that found out that Atkins doesn't work any better than any other diet aside from a potentially greater early weight loss in the initial stages of the diet.

----back to the topic----

People are fat for a lot of reasons, only some of which has to do with the sort of proto-libertarian feeling that they're simply not exercising the willpower to stop themselves from eating so much lard. That doesn't really change the fact that the people complaining about this specific game are being entirely stupid. Fat Princess is a game mechanic, not a value judgment, as anybody with a casual understanding of games and no agenda will probably realize on face. It's not even as though every character in the game constantly stuffs his face with delectable confections - it's just the character that you need to inflate to make her easier to move. All that this entire dispute amounts to, like a lot of arguments like this, is a small group of people actively misunderstanding something in a desperate effort to take offense to it. I suppose it's good to have the discussion, in that it gets us around to talking about weight, but can anybody really defend the original criticisms?

intruder

07-24-2008, 06:44 AM

----back to the topic----

I suppose it's good to have the discussion, in that it gets us around to talking about weight, but can anybody really defend the original criticisms?

I think after Tom showed that the controversy about the game was mainly a fabricated story to get clicks the on topic discussion was over.
However since there is nothing to discuss about games right now (pre-fall slump) I think it's better to discuss something off-topic than not post at all. I prefer this thread a lot to the Fallout 3 one for sure!

SwampIrish

07-24-2008, 06:58 AM

Hanzii

07-24-2008, 08:33 AM

Ok, we got it. It's cool to be rude in Asia.

Oh, then I didn't get it. I thought the point was that certain Americans are just a wee bit oversensitive about weightgain.

"Gained WEIGHT you say!?! Why I oughtha! I'm still smaller than a John Candy cut-out you rude fuck!"

WarrenM

07-24-2008, 08:39 AM

I don't think the problem was that people are over sensitive as it seems to have become translated. It's more that people don't deserve to be ridiculed simply because they are overweight. There's a pretty big difference there.

NoWayJose

07-24-2008, 08:40 AM

Ok, we got it. It's cool to be rude in Asia.
Or maybe in America we've reached the point where "you've gained a little weight" is worthy of removing one's glove and applying it directly to the cheek of the offender (this requires putting down the KFC bucket first).

Bill Dungsroman

07-24-2008, 08:43 AM

I thought that on a recent SGU the group discussed this and brought up a number of studies that found out that Atkins doesn't work any better than any other diet aside from a potentially greater early weight loss in the initial stages of the diet.

If I had to take a guess, I'd bet that study looked at a random sampling of merely people who have gone on the Atkins diet, more or less. As I said, without being strictly faithful to the program, the recidivism/failure rate is very high. It doesn't mean the diet itself is a failure, just that it's difficult to stick the rigorous guidelines of it.

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 08:56 AM

Wrong. Are you for fucking real? It most definitely is a problem.

Wrong again. You eat a bag of pure glucose vs. a bag of pure fructose and we'll just see about your little theorem there.

If you mean "just blame corn syrup" then sure, however it's most definitely on the hit list. Why would you even argue this point?

Not the end. Non-glucose sweeteners have been theorized to have a variety of effects on the body. Carbide mentioned some of them, I would add a recent one that suggests certain sweeteners may cause an increase in hunger/craving centers for sugar when ingested, as opposed to pure sugar, which does not. I refer back to your first two sentences (the second one especially) with this. Also, you really don't know any biochemists.

Yes, I'm aware there are different types of sugar molecules. Ultimately, while they are processed different ways, and are metabolized differently, the results of calories taken in versus calories expended are precisely the same. I know of no evidence to the contrary. And yes, I admit "sugar molecules are sugar molecules" is a gross over simplification, and wrong.

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 08:59 AM

Based on the currently available evidence, the expert panel concluded that HFCS does not appear to contribute to overweight and obesity any differently than do other energy sources. (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/10408390600846457)

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 09:09 AM

Also, you really don't know any biochemists.
That's a strange assumption on your part. Also, why are you so angry?

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 09:11 AM

I would add a recent one that suggests certain sweeteners may cause an increase in hunger/craving centers for sugar when ingested, as opposed to pure sugar, which does not.
What does this have to do with HFCS? By your own criteria, why are you arguing that?

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 09:21 AM

This is what I've read as well. The body tastes something sweet, doesn't get actually GET any sugar, and then ups the cravings because it didn't get what it needed. This leads to more eating and moar fat.

I've been using pure cane sugar for a few months now rather than our usual Splenda and I haven't gained any weight. I've actually lost a bunch. You really do have to give your body what it wants - which is food and not chemical replacements.
It may increase your cravings, but the calories in vs calories out paradigm hasn't changed, of course. Which is why I was confused about why Bill included this in his response.

Equis

07-24-2008, 09:21 AM

Oh, then I didn't get it. I thought the point was that certain Americans are just a wee bit oversensitive about weightgain.

"Gained WEIGHT you say!?! Why I oughtha! I'm still smaller than a John Candy cut-out you rude fuck!"

I don't know if it's America or Asia, but having lived significant portions of my life in both the States and Singapore, (plus a smattering of other places like London), I'd say that yes, there are certain topics that are hair-trigger sensitive to talk about in America that are either mildly annoying in Singapore, or altogether not worth getting into a tizzy about.

Weight is one of them.

krise madsen

07-24-2008, 09:24 AM

Oh for crying out loud. Can't we just agree that it's rude to be rude, what constitutes rude differ between cultures and Fat Princess is awesome funny regardless of your BMI?

Respectfully

krise madsen

Reldan

07-24-2008, 09:29 AM

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 09:32 AM

It confuses me that in the abstract you linked they explicitly say that the introduction of HFCS has not much changed the ratio of Fructose to Glucose in foods. Considering that HFCS is 55% fructose and 45% glucose, you could add almost any amount and you wouldn't radically change that ratio (dur?).

The real question (which I didn't see an answer to) is whether the total amount of sugars found in foods has increased in the last 50 years (I'd think hell yes).
And the answer to that question seems to have very little to do with HFCS. It is simply the sugar of choice because it is cheap. If you eat sugar of any type and don't exercise you will gain weight.

gordonrumble

07-24-2008, 09:40 AM

And the answer to that question seems to have very little to do with HFCS. It is simply the sugar of choice because it is cheap. If you eat sugar of any type and don't exercise you will gain weight.

I'd argue that. If you eat sugar (or any other calories) in excess you will gain weight, but the vast majority of your caloric burn is your baseline metabolism. You could not do a single miute of exercise in your life and as long as you eat appropriately you won't be fat. Granted, you won't be healthy, but you won't be fat. Exercise helps, don't get me wrong, but is not necessary to maintaining a healthy weight.
All sugar gives your approximately 4 calories per gram (protein is also 4 and fat is about 9). I really think that we're complicating weight loss too much here; if your caloric intake is reduced, your weight is reduced (or gains more slowly, or is maintained). Everything else is details.

Hanzii

07-24-2008, 10:32 AM

On an interesting not (not refuting anything anubody said here) I just finished my part as member of the control group on a medical experiment on training and weight loss (and I have the scars to prove it).

The short version of the conclusion about to be published in an abstract is the training without weight loss (that group trained but upped the caloric intake) is almost as healthy as training and eating less. Whereas lowering the caloric intake without training was only a little more healthy than doing nothing (so little it fell within statistical uncertainty... if that's the right English term).
The looked at the insulin number and the bodies ability to process sugar (the loss of that ability which leads to fat people developing diabetes.
The four groups where all overweight, but not obese, and none trained before the experiment (I was in the loose weight, but don't train group).

So as the doctor in charge told me if your choice is between eating less or excercising more (but not both) then pick the training.

Matt Perkins

07-24-2008, 11:17 AM

So as the doctor in charge told me if your choice is between eating less or excercising more (but not both) then pick the training.
My experience is purely anecdotal, but this basically what I've found over the years. I'm still overweight, but if I keep running and keep working out and playing outside, I lose weight more than if I just cut back on eating / caloric intake.

And, I get big rewards in how good I feel. Just less calories doesn't make me feel great, but exercising makes me feel better (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression-and-exercise/MH00043).

I'm not claiming it's easy or everyone should just do it. Heck, I'm not even claiming I'm not overweight still (about 225 now, down from around 300 a couple/few years ago). But the alternatives suck.

ElGuapo

07-24-2008, 11:33 AM

I have Chuck Liddell's problem. I just love beer too much. :)

GatInDaHat

07-24-2008, 12:38 PM

I'm a subscriber to the simplicity of weight loss, calories in < calories expended. My diet is ~ 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% healthy fat, and I work out for one hour, 3 times a week. It's a little tougher now that I'm approaching 40, (aches and pains!), but on the food front it's really not a sacrifice.. I eat tasty, healthy food and I get to condescend to fat people!

Bill Dungsroman

07-24-2008, 01:30 PM

That's a strange assumption on your part.

No it isn't. You're implying an appeal to a higher authority with your original statement about them, and it's not really true, so...

Also, why are you so angry?

I'm not angry, try another generic forum posting dodge. You opened your post with a string of fallacies stated as fact, what did you expect?

Reldan

07-24-2008, 02:02 PM

And the answer to that question seems to have very little to do with HFCS. It is simply the sugar of choice because it is cheap. If you eat sugar of any type and don't exercise you will gain weight.

So... given that the food industry is in fact an industry, and industries operate on margins and profit, you don't see a connection between having a really cheap source of sugar and an increase in sugar use and consumption?

People have a natural affinity towards eating sweet things - it's an evolutionary imperative. It tells us that eating stuff like apples and oranges is good. It gets fooled all to shit by fake processed crap like HFCS which can make all sorts of cheap foodlike products taste like good eats.

Anaxagoras

07-24-2008, 02:16 PM

Ultimately, while they are processed different ways, and are metabolized differently, the results of calories taken in versus calories expended are precisely the same. I know of no evidence to the contrary. And yes, I admit "sugar molecules are sugar molecules" is a gross over simplification, and wrong.

I don't get it. You make an absurdly fallacious argument, but then state " I admit this argument is wrong."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

beloved one

07-24-2008, 02:22 PM

I hate to see so much angst, particularly that people not realizing both sides can and are correct.

Calories in does equal calories expended. It's conservation of energy.

That being said, the rest is not "just details". Sugar calories, and apparently different sugar calories, can be very different. The short answer is that in the simple calories in = metabolic calories + exercise calories, the metabolic calorie category is very big and subject to outside influences.

In the case of sugar, calories from sucrose are more likely to be burned immediately, by the processes detailed in various ways in the thread... as a related example give kids a candy bar and see them bounce off the walls (this is arguably exercise rather than metabolic, but even if you sit them somewhere they are burning full of energy, and annoying).

Again, regarding the contribution of exercise being less significant than metabolism, habitual exercise drives metabolic consumption. An athletic person can be inactive for a long period of time, and they will still retain their greater metabolism and not gain weight... an inactive person who exercises conversely takes a while for their metabolism to increase.

Food is more than calories; at the same time, I am skeptical about how much is proven outside of the calorie aspect. See the atkins diet, ketogenic diet, the incidence of heart disease among eskimos, and so on as counterexamples to prevailing theory.

Basically, I have no faith in any dietary science predictions, only in very specific conclusions of large studies. Just carrying the HFC argument to the point where you show it creates vLDL, doesn't convince me that the vLDL being created is causing harm in populations consuming HFC. See the eskimo diet of blubber and their longevity/low risk of heart disease... 180 degrees from the theoretical expectation of high fat, and hence cholesterol, automatically leading to heart disease.

Today we appreciate omega fatty acids, but it has left me my skeptical approach to modern dietary theory. Until HFC studies start turning up results other than statistically inconclusive I will be unconvinced by mere argument. Dietary science majors will tell you that each can of soda you drink dehydrates you... even if you admit to them that all you've drank is soda for the last 6 months, they will still maintain that each soda you drink dehydrates you. Given that a completely unhydrated person dies within 3 days, you would think simple observation would disprove this assertion, but people will put blind faith in an equation that shows soda removing water from a biological system.

beloved one

07-24-2008, 02:36 PM

So... given that the food industry is in fact an industry, and industries operate on margins and profit, you don't see a connection between having a really cheap source of sugar and an increase in sugar use and consumption?

People have a natural affinity towards eating sweet things - it's an evolutionary imperative. It tells us that eating stuff like apples and oranges is good. It gets fooled all to shit by fake processed crap like HFCS which can make all sorts of cheap foodlike products taste like good eats.

The irony in this "cheap evil HFCS" argument is that HFCS is more expensive than the sugar HFCS antagonists support. Only a stringent set of tarriffs and subsidies set by United States law artificially inflates the price of sugar cane (and reduce the cost of corn) so much that producing HFC from corn is economically sensible. In some restaurants, you can buy foreign Coca-Cola products, which are made with sugar instead of HFC. "Evil" corn-based HFCS products are politically seen as keeping the little American farmer alive.

Similarly, high tariffs against Brazillian sugar based ethanol and subsidies for local Corn based ethanol exist, raising our energy and food costs... in the name of reducing our dependence on OPEC, and easing terror at the gasoline pump. Anyway, I'll stop, as this isn't a p&r thread, though it's certainly not gaming related at this point.

Bill Dungsroman

07-24-2008, 02:37 PM

Dietary science majors will tell you that each can of soda you drink dehydrates you... even if you admit to them that all you've drank is soda for the last 6 months, they will still maintain that each soda you drink dehydrates you. Given that a completely unhydrated person dies within 3 days, you would think simple observation would disprove this assertion, but people will put blind faith in an equation that shows soda removing water from a biological system.

Hahaha, "dietary science majors." Well, did any of them happen to mention the fact that food contains plenty of water? Or that drinking soda results in a net dehydration, so that it does hydrate you to a certain limited sense.

WarrenM

07-24-2008, 02:38 PM

Dietary science majors will tell you that each can of soda you drink dehydrates you... even if you admit to them that all you've drank is soda for the last 6 months, they will still maintain that each soda you drink dehydrates you. Given that a completely unhydrated person dies within 3 days, you would think simple observation would disprove this assertion, but people will put blind faith in an equation that shows soda removing water from a biological system.
Is there a link that backs this up? I have never heard of such an argument. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious if this comes from a credible source or some random internet guy.

beloved one

07-24-2008, 02:47 PM

Hahaha, "dietary science majors." Well, did any of them happen to mention the fact that food contains plenty of water? Or that drinking soda results in a net dehydration, so that it does hydrate you to a certain limited sense.

Ah, like I implied, they are dumbasses. Just offering it up as the sloppy thinking that is encouraged by that department. Not just one, but pretty every student I talked to in a nuitrion type major offered a similar opinion.

Even without eating food for a several days, soda alone has sustained me. I therefore don't agree with the categorical net dehydration effect either. I'm sure drinking coke alone tends you towards a lower equilibrium of hydration, but at some point, drinking some gives enough of a net positive hydration to replenish or ameliorate natural water consumption.

beloved one

07-24-2008, 02:53 PM

Is there a link that backs this up? I have never heard of such an argument. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious if this comes from a credible source or some random internet guy.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=591586

"Thinking today has changed somewhat with regard to water intake.
Previously, coffee and soda were not counted as water intake, because
soda and coffee contain sodium/caffeine that can retain fluid (sodium)
and cause a fluid loss (caffeine). Research has shown that people that
regularly drink coffee and sodas do not experience the water loss/gain
as casual consumers of such beverages. Also, water intake should be
consistent with our environment and activities, and not a one size
fits all.".

Scouting around, this sort of fallacy is not popular anymore, but it was about 7 years ago or so when I was in school listening to people regurgitate what they learned in class. The point is more that dietary science is incredibly young, and I consider it very unreliable.

WarrenM

07-24-2008, 02:57 PM

Hawkeye Fierce

07-24-2008, 03:04 PM

Thanks!

And I agree with your dismissal of dietary science. Reading any of the food related books by Michael Pollan (particularly his latest, In Defense of Food) will be enough to convince anyone that science knows very little about nutrition.Not that one should expect a different attitude from a whole-foods manifesto, but I felt most of his criticism of "nutritionism" was somewhat mis-aimed. His evidence really only supported the conclusion that everyone, from government to agri-business to consumers, chronicly misapplies food science, not that it's an entirely invalid field of study.

I mean, it might be, but I don't think he really proved that in his book.

Reldan

07-24-2008, 03:26 PM

The irony in this "cheap evil HFCS" argument is that HFCS is more expensive than the sugar HFCS antagonists support. Only a stringent set of tarriffs and subsidies set by United States law artificially inflates the price of sugar cane (and reduce the cost of corn) so much that producing HFC from corn is economically sensible.

This assumes that the current price of sugar would not increase if the demand for it went up (say if the tariffs were lifted). It's hard to say what opening the market in this country up to massive sugar importation would do to the price, but I'd bet it would go up. We can consume sugar like it's nobody's business here in the states.

My real beef isn't so much with "cheap, evil HFCS" as it is that I like the taste of cane sugar more and I know that there's no really good reason why HFCS has to be used everywhere aside from some idiotic farm policies.

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 03:46 PM

I don't get it. You make an absurdly fallacious argument, but then state " I admit this argument is wrong."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

I was conceding that my statement was literally wrong while trying to say what I meant by the comment more precisely in order to be magnanimous. I meant that from the frame of reference of gaining weight, it really doesn't matter if its 100 calories of sucrose or 100 calories of fructose. Sugar is sugar. I'm guilty of being imprecise, but ultimately my point is that I've seen no reasonable evidence anywhere that HFCS, chemically, is any particular culprit of obesity, even as a confounder to simple caloric intake versus expenditure.

Rainier Wolfcastle

07-24-2008, 03:56 PM

No it isn't. You're implying an appeal to a higher authority with your original statement about them, and it's not really true, so...
It was an appeal to an authority sure. Appeals to authority aren't inherently fallacious, but they are easily so. I meant it in an offhand conversational way, otherwise I would have been more specific. If I happen to know someone with expert knowledge on the subject, I can't exactly link them here. I subsequently linked an academic study supporting my point of view.

I'm not angry, try another generic forum posting dodge. You opened your post with a string of fallacies stated as fact, what did you expect?
It sure seemed like you were. A dodge would imply that I said this without then in turn addressing your criticism directly. This was a side note. If I post this and then can't respond to you substantively or cogently, then feel free to call me Dodger.

Kadath

07-24-2008, 04:33 PM

See this is exactly what I'm talking about:

It might seem callous, but whenever I get hungry, I just do something else until it goes away. Maybe I haven't developed the habit of being a slave to my stomach, but it only gets food when I feel like it. I've never had any problems with my weight, and actually find it really easy to satisfy hunger in just a few bites.

Well no shit, I bet you never become alcoholic after having a few beers either, do you? I'm not equating obesity per se to an addiction tho I have read some pretty strong arguments that treating it like one can be helpful. But trying to apply your own experience losing 10, 20 or 40 pounds like other posters here to true morbid obesity is so wrong its off the charts.

Eat a granola bar and the physical sensation of hunger is gone in about twenty minutes;

FOR YOU. For morbidly obese people not so much.

Or they could get stomach stapling, that's a forced diet plan.

It's not a silver bullet. I've already explained this once, let me go slowly for you:
-You cannot phsically eat as much as you once did. You CAN still eat a good number of calories not at one sitting but slowly over the course of a day.
-The bad habits can be stopped, but it is possible for them to creep back in, especially if you think 'hey a little reward won't kill me'. Fortunately dumping syndrome is a hell of an incentive to not mess with pure sugar treats. Pure sugar treats are rarely the problem tho. For me its proteins and junk food carbs and those are not rejected from the body of a bariatric patient like a candy bar can be, and not everyone gets dumping syndrome, I have had only slight touches but I dont have a sweet tooth.
-The desire to eat doesnt go away.
-Eating while bored doesnt go away. Grazing is bad.
-Surgery doesnt force you to exercise more, tho as you lose weight you will find its a lot more pleasing to do so. But the aches and pains most people feel from exercising are magnified 10 fold on those of us who are carrying more weight over a lifetime.

Etcetera. And VERY little of this sinks through pre surgery. And everyone is different and reacts to the surgery differently.

Anaxagoras

07-24-2008, 05:03 PM

I meant that from the frame of reference of gaining weight, it really doesn't matter if its 100 calories of sucrose or 100 calories of fructose. Sugar is sugar.
The number of calories food contains is determined by placing the food in a bomb calorimeter or something like that. To a bomb calorimeter, a sugar is a sugar. To the human body, different sugars require different amounts of energy to extract the energy contained within them. Thus 100 calories of glucose yields more energy to a human body than 100 calories of fructose, because it uses less energy to process. And that doesn't even take into account the stuff around the sugar itself. 100 calories of candy bar yields more energy than 100 calories of most fruits, because fruits have all that pulpy cellulose & whatnot that also has to be processed.

Sugar isn't sugar. War is peace, brother.

Jason McCullough

07-24-2008, 05:27 PM

That doesn't really change the fact that the people complaining about this specific game are being entirely stupid. Fat Princess is a game mechanic, not a value judgment, as anybody with a casual understanding of games and no agenda will probably realize on face. It's not even as though every character in the game constantly stuffs his face with delectable confections - it's just the character that you need to inflate to make her easier to move. All that this entire dispute amounts to, like a lot of arguments like this, is a small group of people actively misunderstanding something in a desperate effort to take offense to it.

I think the offense-causing with it is actually more subtle in that it shows the fat character as a powerless thing you're just stuffing with food, reinforcing the "lazy gluttony" stereotype. Kind of toned-down version of winning the game by handing a Jewish character lots of money so he can bribe your opponents to stop attacking.

By contrast, if you had to, say, keep feeding the fat princess to fuel her merciless slaughtering of your opponents or something, it'd be an amusing spin on the whole video game stereotypes thing.

Bill Dungsroman

07-24-2008, 09:23 PM

Ah, like I implied, they are dumbasses. Just offering it up as the sloppy thinking that is encouraged by that department. Not just one, but pretty every student I talked to in a nuitrion type major offered a similar opinion.

Even without eating food for a several days, soda alone has sustained me. I therefore don't agree with the categorical net dehydration effect either. I'm sure drinking coke alone tends you towards a lower equilibrium of hydration, but at some point, drinking some gives enough of a net positive hydration to replenish or ameliorate natural water consumption.

Oh, see, well it also depends on your level of hydration to begin with. Well or adequately hydrated, excess soda ingestion will dehydrate you. If you are dehydrated to begin with, especially to significant degrees, it won't.

Bill Dungsroman

07-24-2008, 09:35 PM

It was an appeal to an authority sure. Appeals to authority aren't inherently fallacious, but they are easily so. I meant it in an offhand conversational way, otherwise I would have been more specific. If I happen to know someone with expert knowledge on the subject, I can't exactly link them here.

Does this expert really say that all other sugars are pretty much just like glucose?

I subsequently linked an academic study supporting my point of view.

Yeah, about that. I found one too (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/18/health/webmd/main4192834.shtml). It's a story about the AMA research. Check the closing paragraph:

The AMA says it isn't thrilled with the level of research on high fructose corn syrup, partly because there isn't a lot of research on the health effects of high fructose corn syrup and also because of industry funding for much of that work.

Yeah, see. Not much research, and what little there is, is funded by the food industry that sells the products that contain HFCS. Call me a cynic!

It sure seemed like you were. A dodge would imply that I said this without then in turn addressing your criticism directly. This was a side note. If I post this and then can't respond to you substantively or cogently, then feel free to call me Dodger.

I don't really know why you said most of the things you said in your last two posts, so ok!

Jazar

07-29-2008, 08:29 AM

Front page of Yahoo.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r100/gamingage/fat_yahoo.jpg

Yahoo article:

http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/feminists-cry-foul-over-fat-princess/1232315

Cossix

07-29-2008, 08:54 AM

Thanks Yahoo. That's awesome. News is now two bloggers getting upset over something.

07-29-2008, 08:59 AM

Well, the developers surely won't complain at this point. The 'outrage' has carried their title beyond the reach of the standard gaming press, it seems.

-Julian

RobotPants

07-29-2008, 09:29 AM

I don't think anything containing "Feminists Outraged..." is ever really news anyway. They're one of several groups outraged on a daily basis.

But yeah, we live in a time where one or two people can post their opinion in a blog and suddenly they represent everyone with similar beliefs. Then the Super Gamer Defense Squad jumps all over them because someone having a different opinion means they're trashing their hobby. This is despite the fact that most of SGDS's own frequently expressed opinions online involve poop in some fashion.

gordonrumble

07-29-2008, 09:35 AM

Wow, that's ironic - the character concept art, etc was done by a woman. How do you like them apples, feminists?

ProStyle

07-29-2008, 09:59 AM

How do you like them apples, feminists?
Judging by the original complainants grim visage, I would presume caramel and peanut coated, by the dozen. /lolfatties

Tankero

07-29-2008, 10:03 AM

This whole thing could've gone to a whole darker place...

Whittalinks (add word to spellchecker) would've abound, scarring the minds of so, so many...

Anders Hallin

07-29-2008, 05:17 PM

Wow, that's ironic - the character concept art, etc was done by a woman. How do you like them apples, feminists?
The first article I read about this, on a feminist blog, mentioned that fact. So.. uh, we like them fine, I guess?

Isn't it ironic that you understand irony worse than Alanis Morrissette? (no, it isn't)

Jonathan Blow

07-29-2008, 05:39 PM

Fat Princess seems to have just won IGN's award for Best Downloadable Console Game of E3 2008...

http://uk.games.ign.com/articles/893/893833p4.html

So maybe someone just thinks fat people are the funniest thing ever?

gordonrumble

07-29-2008, 05:43 PM

The first article I read about this, on a feminist blog, mentioned that fact. So.. uh, we like them fine, I guess?

Isn't it ironic that you understand irony worse than Alanis Morrissette? (no, it isn't)

The reason why it was ironic isn't because it was stated in the original article, it's the underlying premise of the entire scenario. Feminists of the more reactionary variety were up in arms about the supposed objectification of women, particularly the obese, but the concept for the idea was written by a woman. It destroys the foundation of the argument that the portrayal of women in the game is meant to be objectionable, because it's unlikely that a woman would have designed it that way (unless she's a masochist). This makes the premise innocent at its core - thus the entire argument against the game (particularly by secondary debaters) ends up totally backwards. The situation is extremely ironic (as in an apparently straightforward event being undermined by its context to alter its significance, and sometimes reverse it).

Anyhow, I didn't really intend to start a discussion about it. I just thought is was a funny bit of information that might have slipped through the cracks that I wanted to share.

Anders Hallin

07-29-2008, 05:59 PM

Feminists of the more reactionary variety were up in arms about the supposed objectification of women, particularly the obese, but the concept for the idea was written by a woman. It destroys the foundation of the argument that the portrayal of women in the game is meant to be objectionable, because it's unlikely that a woman would have designed it that way (unless she's a masochist).
You don't think women can write women in a way that is objectifying? That women are somehow immune to group-think? That women always have to identify with other women, or, as in this particular case, fat women?
To take an extreme example, it's like saying that all feminist arguments are bunk because Concerned Women for America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerned_Women_for_America) are women.

I don't think this is so much about the designers' intentions, as it is about putting a spotlight on the (in the view of the people who have a problem with it) thoughtless way fat women are ever the butts of jokes.

Also, I was under the impression that she was just the concept artist, that is, she got paid to do it (and she did a smashing job, because it looks ADORABLE).

Caryn Law

07-29-2008, 06:32 PM

It destroys the foundation of the argument that the portrayal of women in the game is meant to be objectionable, because it's unlikely that a woman would have designed it that way (unless she's a masochist). This makes the premise innocent at its core - thus the entire argument against the game (particularly by secondary debaters) ends up totally backwards.

That argument really doesn't hold at all. I'm a woman, and if I say that a woman's place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, it's still a blatantly sexist remark -- my gender doesn't automatically validate the statement somehow.

gordonrumble

07-29-2008, 07:28 PM

Damien Falgoust

07-29-2008, 07:36 PM

I like cake.http://beznadegi.net/uploads/posts/1192380658_nom_nom_cake.jpg

Sol Invictus

07-29-2008, 08:06 PM

You know it's entirely possible that the real issue behind this is that Fat Princess is a video game. If it were a TV show or a movie or a book nobody would give a shit.

There was that Jack Black movie about how he loves a fat chick (whom he thinks is skinny) and nobody threw a hissy fit over it. There was also My Big Fat Greek Wedding, which is about fat greek women. Nothing wrong there. But a game? Oh man, that's just pushing it WAY TOO FAR GUYS, YOU NEED TO STOP.

quatoria

07-29-2008, 09:16 PM

That argument really doesn't hold at all. I'm a woman, and if I say that a woman's place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, it's still a blatantly sexist remark -- my gender doesn't automatically validate the statement somehow.

CARYN! You're not dead!

Angie Gallant

07-29-2008, 09:23 PM

There was that Jack Black movie about how he loves a fat chick (whom he thinks is skinny) and nobody threw a hissy fit over it.

http://truemeaningoflife.com/images/alicelol.gif

Sol Invictus

07-29-2008, 09:52 PM

http://truemeaningoflife.com/images/alicelol.gif

God damn that's creepy.

Hanacker

07-29-2008, 09:53 PM

Shallow Hal caused an immediate furor about its alleged characterization of fat people as the grotesque butts of sophomoric jokes. Of course, most of those complaining hadn't seen the source of their outrage. (http://www.answers.com/topic/shallow-hal)

I thought that movie was awful and totally didn't succeed in pulling off the "fat people deserve respect too" angle, but a brief search of reviews showed most people disagreeing.

Edit: Although actually checking rottentomatoes shows much more negative reviews than my initial google search.

Caryn Law

07-29-2008, 11:06 PM

CARYN! You're not dead!
Um, not since I last checked. Why would I be?

Bill Dungsroman

07-29-2008, 11:29 PM

Um, not since I last checked. Why would I be?

Because...we killed you.

DUNT DUNT DUNNNNNNNNN!!!!

Brad Grenz

07-30-2008, 12:44 AM

But then... Who did we grind directly into the feeding pond at the hatchery with a wood chipper?

Adree

07-30-2008, 01:20 AM

http://i37.tinypic.com/eiv1ur.jpg

Anders Hallin

07-30-2008, 04:29 AM

You know it's entirely possible that the real issue behind this is that Fat Princess is a video game. If it were a TV show or a movie or a book nobody would give a shit.
Actually, I agree. Because only gamers have such an oversized victimisation complex that they take "person of group does not like a game's design" as proof that they feel they have to protect their fragile hobby by calling the group which the person criticizing it is part of as a bunch of retardocunts.
Stay classy, gaming community!

Anders Hallin

07-30-2008, 04:34 AM

I think it's likely that had it been a fat king instead of a fat princess there would not have been the same outcry. Doesn't this seem like a double standard? With a male 'flag' it's not so bad, but with a female 'flag' it's sexism? Shouldn't equality demand equal treatment?
Difficult to say what the reaction of a king would have been.
However, I think you fall into the trap of "all else being equal". Of course, if all else was equal, then equal treatment would be preferable (though the charge that feminists in particular must care about a bunch of other stuff for the issues they care about to be legitimate is total crock). But all other things are not equal, and I would say this is stunningly clear in the field of media and body image.
Of course, in the case of fat, it's not like fat men get a great deal either.

Aeon221

07-30-2008, 05:02 AM

Actually, I agree. Because only gamers have such an oversized victimisation complex that they take "person of group does not like a game's design" as proof that they feel they have to protect their fragile hobby by calling the group which the person criticizing it is part of as a bunch of retardocunts.
Stay classy, gaming community!

Shut up, Beavis.

calvin940

07-31-2008, 12:49 PM

And this shit just keeps getting worse (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25939266/).

gordonrumble

07-31-2008, 02:07 PM

In a way, Sony should be happy about this; it's tons and tons of free advertising. I wouldn't be surprised if this significantly increased the sales of the game. Might peak too early though.

John Many Jars

07-31-2008, 02:52 PM

LOL gaychubbydating banner ad

Reed

07-31-2008, 03:00 PM

In a way, Sony should be happy about this; it's tons and tons of free advertising. I wouldn't be surprised if this significantly increased the sales of the game.
Yep, no doubt. It's like a mini-GTA push!

flyinj

07-31-2008, 03:05 PM

Well, at least now the entire world can see Mellissa "Shakes" McEwan's "look at mah big wurdz" misuse of the term "heteronormative".

John Many Jars

07-31-2008, 03:08 PM

It could be less heteronormative if the princess turns out to be a prince in drag. Not inconceivable in a Japanese game! And it would set things up for the sequel, "Fat Queen."

Jazar

08-01-2008, 06:37 AM

Finally this stupid piece of non-news reaches the pinnacle, Fox News Cable TV:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/247056.html

Congrats to the devs of Fat Princess who, with the simple premise of a small PSN game, reaches mainstream press with no effort at all.

Maybe if they change the name from Fat Princess to Fat Ugly Femenazi Bitch televised coverage would go global!

Sam Jones

08-01-2008, 06:44 AM

Personally, I'd like Fat Princess 2 to involve forcing our heroine to crash diet into her wedding dress. That would give the rowdy internet feminists something to complain about. As it stands, they're pitting their froth and fury against cartoon logic, which is simultaneously hilarious and somewhat pitiful.

WarrenM

08-01-2008, 06:56 AM

Congrats to the devs of Fat Princess who, with the simple premise of a small PSN game, reaches mainstream press with no effort at all.
I wonder how long it will take for someone to discover that these outraged feminists are actually on the developers payroll. Wouldn't surprise me!

intruder

08-01-2008, 07:06 AM

Anders Hallin

08-01-2008, 07:15 AM

I wonder how long it will take for someone to discover that these outraged feminists are actually on the developers payroll. Wouldn't surprise me!
I doubt that, since the "feminist outrage" consisted basically of one post per blog, at a few blogs, and then focused solely (though mostly on Shakes, since she feeds on troll posts) on the much more ripe ground of misogyny that was the gamer reaction to a feminist having an opinion.

merryprankster

04-03-2009, 07:44 AM

Decent little spot on this game in Qore, which is free this month.

Horrible Oscar

07-27-2009, 01:19 PM

Out this thursday! (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/07/27/fat-princess-worth-the-weight-heres-the-date/)

armand v

07-27-2009, 02:20 PM

I hope it will be worth the weight.

Rock8man

07-27-2009, 02:23 PM

Gendal

07-27-2009, 03:09 PM

I have a PS3 and so do quite a few other QT3 people. Course outside of Resistance I can't think of a single other time I played multiplayer with anybody.

I rarely play multiplayer but for whatever reason this game is looking very appealing. If the reviews don't trash it I will probably pick it up. Would be fantastic to get a bunch of us playing it. And by a bunch I mean 3.

merryprankster

07-27-2009, 11:59 PM

Best pun of the day!

On the game: I'll be looking at reviews for how good the single player is. I still don't know anyone with a PS3, so it never occurs to me ever get multiplayer games for it. Seems like it would be a waste of money.

I'm kinda in this boat as well. Given that I have about 10 people on my PS3 friends list I'm just not sure if it's worth getting this. It looks pretty sweet though.

Dave Long

07-28-2009, 08:26 AM

$14.99 eh? I'll have to hear some good stuff, but if I do, I'm in.

Horrible Oscar

07-30-2009, 11:43 AM

Out now! At least in Europe. Only messed around a little in single player with some bots, but it was worth it to see Solid Cake and Liquid Cake.

Bahimiron

07-30-2009, 12:31 PM

I was in the USA Today beta for this and had an absolute blast.

Still, I may hold off on picking it up until I see what the collective things. Unlike my 360 friends list, my PS3 friends list is populated soley by people I know on the internet.

Grifman

07-30-2009, 01:57 PM

In a way, Sony should be happy about this; it's tons and tons of free advertising.

"tons and tons" . . . hahaha . . .

gordonrumble

07-30-2009, 04:36 PM

"tons and tons" . . . hahaha . . .

It took a year, but someone got it!

Nawid A

07-30-2009, 07:09 PM

I heard no dedicated servers. That's pretty stupid for a 32 player game. I'm holding off on my purchase for a bit. Shatter and 1943 can keep me busy.

merryprankster

07-31-2009, 12:03 AM

Well this game could be really cool if it worked. Offline is kinda fun, and multi player seems a bit broken. I was only able to actually join one match and that was a weirdly laggy mess. My dude wouldn't respond well to controls and the other players kept popping in and out of existence. Add in the fact that only one other person on the team had a mic and all semblence of strategy was pretty much absent.

I can see how if you could actually join games, they worked well, and people had mics so they could coordinate, this game could be really awesome. As it stands now it seems to be only realiably playable offline which is a bit ho hum. The offline AI is kinda broken as many of my bot teammates seem to like standing in corners. 10 points for a cool idea and and charming style, zero for funtioning well.

If they get the online sorted out to where I can consistently join games, and they aren't a laggy mess I can see it being a lot of fun, but as of now I'm kinda dissappointed.

Mysterio

07-31-2009, 08:31 AM

This game sounds like a lot of fun, and the gameplay is right up my alley. I'm a sucker for character and building development, and I'd be surprised if I last the day without purchasing it. They're probably having similar server issues that Dice had recently with BF1943 (i.e., demand unexpectedly exceeded server capacity). Hope they have it resolved soon.

LuckyDay

07-31-2009, 08:43 AM

Shame this game is only on PSN - Xbox is in need of both more princesses and more cake. Guess I will just have to commandeer my housemate's PS3.

This game reminded me of a wonderful chubster-related commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOk-DtO6Dlg).

KieronGillen

07-31-2009, 08:57 AM

Months on, and I only now find myself laughing at this in Sol's post...

The legion of overweight fatties are at it again.

As opposed to all those underweight fatties.

KG

Mordrak

07-31-2009, 08:59 AM

I don't care and I'm a fattie, though I'm not a princess. I'm a queen.*

*Only on weekends.**

**Not really.

Jazar

07-31-2009, 09:51 AM

I wish there was a demo for this because seems like some people are having major connection issues while others are getting in without any problems.

I was in the beta and it had a very poor online experience. I was lucky if I got into a room with more then two people (the rest were bots).

Mysterio

07-31-2009, 10:01 AM

I was in the beta and it had a very poor online experience. I was lucky if I got into a room with more then two people (the rest were bots).

I'm not sure if the connection issues people are reporting with Fat Princess is due to the game or the lack of servers, but have you already verified that, if you connect through a router, you have a Type 2 NAT connection to your PS3 (http://www.pregamelobby.com/forum/sony-reviews-tips/5618-how-get-type-2-open-nat-your-ps3.html)?

Jazar

07-31-2009, 10:09 AM

Last time I checked I was NAT2 with a bunch of ports forwarded to PS3. I'll check again next time I can.

Horrible Oscar

07-31-2009, 10:27 AM

The matchmaking takes ages for me, but you can avoid the clunkiness by just making a server yourself and waiting for some people to trundle in. It's annoying and really needs some tweaking, but at least the game itself runs fine once you get in.

merryprankster

07-31-2009, 10:53 AM

So they do trundle in? I wasn't sure if create a match just made a private match since I made one and played against bots the whole game.

Destarius

07-31-2009, 10:57 AM

In my gym there's this fatty who's been there every day for almost 3 years, working his ass off (not). I was wondering why, until I asked what he ate every day. He was stuffing himself after each gym session as a reward.

As Bill has been trying to say, losing weight isn't magic - if you're eating what you're working off you're not just literally but also figuratively on that treadmill going nowhere.

Yes, there are people pre-disposed to gaining weight more easily, but that just means those people have work harder, not that it can't happen.

Horrible Oscar

07-31-2009, 10:59 AM

They do for me, at least. The only way to make a private game is by making every slot a friend slot.

Mordrak

07-31-2009, 11:04 AM

Destarius

07-31-2009, 12:36 PM

@Destarius,

Yeah. The hackers diet really helped me lose a bunch of weight (and I mean a lot). Since my life went downhill these past few years (though it'd always been downhill or at the bottom of said hill, I just got perspective on it at that point), I've gained it all back. :(

The formula for losing weight is easy. However, even then, before the weight gain again, the hackers diet will only took me so far and I never got into a regular fitness/nutritional routine that'd build up the pathetic waste of a body I had left over.

One of the things I had to do to keep me on the straight and narrow at when I first started was psyche myself out so that going to bed hungry was a good thing. I had to tell that to myself over and over again. When I'd do things like run, I'd picture the body I wanted rather than the piece of shit I have. However, even then, exercise and losing weight go so far. Some things you can't change (or at least as easily).

What you need is support, good advice and huge dose of vanity.

btw, going to bed hungry is a BAD THING. In fact, going hungry is generally a bad thing. You'd be surprised at what you can eat which carries little calories and are good stomach fillers - I'd recommend shirataki, which is like noodles, but a packet only contains 20 calories and it's largely fibre.

If you're working out, then best time to grow is when you're sleeping and starving your body during that critical period never makes sense. The trick is to take a protein meal before sleeping and maybe some anti-catabolics.

When I was cutting (I lost 15 kg in 2 months), the idea was never to get hungry (that's a plan-killer), but to plan a diet which was lower calorie but high in taste. Cut high GI carbs (like rice and potatoes) but replace them with low-GI alternatives if you must.

My life did go downhill at some point - but I figured this one thing out: maybe I can't control my career, my relationships or the people I know, but one thing I have full damned control (short of an illness) is my body shape, because the only limiting factor there was my own strength of will.

Jason Cross

07-31-2009, 01:05 PM

Did I stumble into a weight loss thread by accident?

I played through the whole single player thing of Fat Princess (worth it to watch the credits! Except that they're too long...). It's a totally charming and really quite ingenious game. I'll probably try out the multiplayer this weekend, see if I have the connection issues reported here.

Some quick tips I didn't realize at first:
1. You can drop off wood/ore at any building, you just have a "general stockpile" that you spend to upgrade and build.
2. That means the towers, too! It took me like five games to realize you can chuck wood/ore at the towers to deposit them. This is key to making your economy move quickly.
3. You can enter a tower and you'll appear on top of it. Great for some ranged attackers.
4. Some maps have a back-entrance to the castle. It's a tower with a sort of gate in front. Control it, and move into it to go underground into the castle.
5. When playing with the AI, they don't do a good job of working together to go for the capture. A good way around this is to get a team of helpers by pressing up on the D-pad. You can make up to 4 people follow you this way. Get your gang to jump into the catapult with you, and go for a capture that way.