Little Big Planet -- Killing PC Gaming just a little more

[Charles]

With the revelation (http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/littlebigplan-1.html) that LBP will allow gamers to potentially charge for their own LBP levels, I couldn't help but think that this is yet another in the long line of assaults on PC gaming as we've known it.

This is what I see happening: LBP gets popular, and when they flip the switch, suddenly people spending their time making levels can actually make money for it. If the system works, what happens is that creative gamers start flocking to where they can make money. Potentially abandoning the PC-modding space, long assumed to be the hold out that would keep PC gaming alive and well.

Well, if Little Big Planet is successful, and the devs are pocking some serious profits from gamers selling their levels, modding will become an important part of console gaming... and then, when modding exists on consoles, only you can make money there, why would anyone spend their time making interesting stuff on the PC they'll never get anything for?

Anyway, all of this assumes that LBP will be successful, which I still think is a stretch. But I thought this might spawn some interesting discussion.

[Roy Ziegler]

What is the content you can sell, just levels?

[WarrenM]

It's certainly a concern, Charles. I don't see LBP being the one that does the real damage since It looks like a novelty game to me and not something that will generate a huge user following. Platformers rarely are able to do that (Mario being the major exception).

The mod community has a long history of getting people hired into game companies however so there IS benefit to working on the PC where you will still be able to write code and do things that console modding probably won't allow for a very long time, even with added mod support.

[Charles]

Sure, but if you can work on mods for consoles, get a job, AND get paid... it wins over PC again.

I do agree LBP won't be the one to do it. But if it can proof the business model... dark days ahead.

[merryprankster]

I'm not a PC gamer, but from what I understand the toolset you get with something like Oblivion is a lot more robust than LBP's level editor. so you may see modders whipping up a few levels to make some cash, but really creative people will want to keep using flexible tools that they can make whatever they want with it.

[Ben Sones]

Well, if Little Big Planet is successful, and the devs are pocking some serious profits from gamers selling their levels, modding will become an important part of console gaming... and then, when modding exists on consoles, only you can make money there, why would anyone spend their time making interesting stuff on the PC they'll never get anything for?

Because a lot of modders aren't in it for the money? I mean, it does seem likely that LBP will attract a mod community, and maybe even more so if modders are allowed to charge for mods. That said, it has yet to be demonstrated that players will pay for these mods, especially if LBP also has free content available. I suspect a lot of folks will scream "horse armor!"

I seriously doubt that LPB's "charge for mods" system will have any impact on PC modding one way or the other.

[MSUSteve]

I have mixed feelings about this frankly, though they have nothing to do with a PC vs. console discussion. On one hand, it's fair that creative people that work hard on a level should get some compensation for providing a great level to the community at large. On the other hand, it stinks that freely sharing and playing created levels could be hampered by people looking to get paid for the levels they create. I see some other problems too. What would stop someone from simply recreating a popular pay-to-play level and offering it for free? Also, what sort of licensing issues might crop up when someone creates World 1-1 from Super Mario Bros. and wants to charge for it? I think Sony should pass on allowing people to charge others for created levels, even if it could be somewhat of a cash cow for them.

[delirium]

I imagine there won't be more than a handful of LBP level creators who will be able to make any money off their work, assuming you will also be able to give away levels for free. Only the most amazingly creative people will be able to garner enough attention for themselves that people would choose to pay money for their levels rather than just play some of the other free content. I'm sure the free stuff will be awesome, too, since there isn't going to be a lot of money to be made off selling levels. I have a feeling most great modders would prefer universal respect and attention over the few potential bucks they could earn from it.

[Vesper]

Is LBP going to provide more than in-game editing? It seems to be on a completely different scale to me than PC modding if you can't bring in your own textures, 3d models, etc.

[MikeSolita]

Wow. I figured Sony would want this game to succeed. Charging for user-created content? I don't care how good it is. It's some guy sitting in his living room using a simple in-game design tool.

I'd pay money for some of the massive Oblivion mods that re-invent the game. But creative arranging of in-game assets? Huh.

[WarrenM]

Charging for user-created content? I don't care how good it is. It's some guy sitting in his living room using a simple in-game design tool.
That's an odd viewpoint, IMO. Why the tools used to create the content affect it worth as a purchase?

[Tim James]

The whole "DLC" concept didn't kill PCs, and I have my doubts that a supply-side change will affect anything. PC gamers and modders are just a different breed. Almost all of it is for the love of the game, and released for free. Also, the demand for great free PC mods won't go away, so anyone that starts to create one will have mountains of enthusiastic support, which is often better than a few hundred bucks here and there.

[Rock8man]

I figure the way it will work is that certain people in the community will create better levels (for free initially) than everyone else, and their levels will become popular and they'll get a certain reputation. I don't see what's wrong with them leveraging that reputation to sell content from that point onward.

[Fugitive]

It'll depend on just how they handle the distribution and indexing of the levels, I think. If someone has to page through a whole ton of crummy ten-minute levels someone thinks they can get a buck for in order to find the few free gems, then people might lose interest fairly quickly. But it would be great if they can be ranked and sorted so that you can easily find the best of each type.

[theblackw0lf]

It'll depend on just how they handle the distribution and indexing of the levels, I think. If someone has to page through a whole ton of crummy ten-minute levels someone thinks they can get a buck for in order to find the few free gems, then people might lose interest fairly quickly. But it would be great if they can be ranked and sorted so that you can easily find the best of each type.

Based on this comment from Sony, it sounds like they're only giving this option to level designers that have created levels of high quality

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/07/22/littlebigplanet-levels-could-cost-you

"What we're trying to do with LittleBigPlanet is almost iTunes-meets-eBay in the sense that once an individual or a developer has qualified by producing certain levels or certain add-ons, they will then be able in the future to exchange these and make money out of them," David Reeves, President of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, explained to PS3 Fanboy. "Eventually, it's feasible that you might well see the first LittleBigPlanet millionaire!"

[MSUSteve]

Ah. Upon reading that, it sounds to me like it's a situation where Sony will offer to buy up particularly good levels to be sold on the PSN or perhaps in some kind of pay-for-play pack.

[NuclearWinter]

It'll depend on just how they handle the distribution and indexing of the levels, I think. If someone has to page through a whole ton of crummy ten-minute levels someone thinks they can get a buck for in order to find the few free gems, then people might lose interest fairly quickly. But it would be great if they can be ranked and sorted so that you can easily find the best of each type.

They can be ranked and it has a rating and comment system similar to youtube. You can also subscribe to individual authors if you're a fan of their work, so you can keep track of whatever new stuff they do. I believe it also has a built in "recommend this to friends" tool.

Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=200029) has a follow up from Sony on the subject of charging:
"SCEE and Media Molecule can guarantee that all consumer-generated content will be free at launch. We know how important this is to the LBP community and what we want most is for people to enjoy playing, creating and sharing their content," Sony told Eurogamer.

"Obviously, we're also excited about the future and David was talking about how user-generated content could potentially evolve in the long term. Any decisions that are taken to evolve LBP in the future, will include the community and focus purely on enhancing the user experience."

[AndrewM]

How is that like eBay in any way? Except that eBay makes a lot of money and Sony would also like to make a lot of money?

[Kunikos]

Don't you people ever get tired of saying that PC gaming is DOMED!1! ? It's been, what, over 15 years of hearing the same crap and it's still alive and well.

[Fugitive]

It's a really big d0me.

[Shadari]

Don't you people ever get tired of saying that PC gaming is DOMED!1! ? It's been, what, over 15 years of hearing the same crap and it's still alive and well.
Yeah, this meme is almost as stupid as the one that says that console gaming is only for idiots. ;)

[MSUSteve]

Yeah, this meme is almost as stupid as the one that says that console gaming is only for idiots. ;)
Speaking of which, I'm a new PC Gamer subscriber (since GFW Magazine folded) and I've noticed the tone of some of the articles are at best condescending to console gamers and at worst, outright hostile. I wonder if the folks at PC Gamer realize that most people play both and that it's not really necessary to crap on consoles to cover PC games effectively.

[Shadari]

Speaking of which, I'm a new PC Gamer subscriber (since GFW Magazine folded) and I've noticed the tone of some of the articles is at best condescending to console gamers and at worst, outright hostile. I wonder if the folks at PC Gamer realize that most people play both and that it's not really necessary to crap on consoles to cover PC games effectively.
Yeah, I've noticed a bit of that. But outright hostile? What, did Kristen threaten to kick your ass or something? :)

[MSUSteve]

Ha ha! Yeah, that might be some hyperbole on my part, but there were definitely a few backhanded comments regarding console games. It was enough that I noticed it, ya know?

[Tim James]

Speaking of which, I'm a new PC Gamer subscriber (since GFW Magazine folded) and I've noticed the tone of some of the articles is at best condescending to console gamers and at worst, outright hostile. I wonder if the folks at PC Gamer realize that most people play both and that it's not really necessary to crap on consoles to cover PC games effectively.You'd have to ask them, but I thought I remember them saying it's just a running schtick. Maybe there was a reader letter one time crying about the same issue, and they explained that they're all big fans of console games as well. I can't remember. I'm not sensitive enough for it to bother me, though I don't own a console at this point (mostly because I've never been compelled to rather than any kind of prejudice).

What bothers me more is the goofy picture captions. There are a handful each magazine that are just dumb, in that quirky irreverent Maxim style. (All you journalists will have to forgive my ignorance on these things.) Not sure why it gets to me, but a simple explanation of the picture and some very limited humor is sufficient.

[MSUSteve]

You'd have to ask them, but I thought I remember them saying it's just a running schtick. Maybe there was a reader letter one time crying about the same issue, and they explained that they're all big fans of console games as well. I can't remember. I'm not sensitive enough for it to bother me, though I don't own a console at this point (mostly because I've never been compelled to rather than any kind of prejudice).
I didn't mean to imply that I was sobbing in my Cheerios about it, but it was noticeable and I thought a little out of place. But if that's a running joke for them, I'm not going to cancel my subscription over it or anything.

[SpoofyChop]

I'm really excited about this concept!

Now maybe people will be able to mod fun into console games that were previously considered tedious and punishing like, say, Assassin's Creed.

[mono]

Yawn. Wake me up the epoch the dark days roll in.

[Charles]

I'm really excited about this concept!

Now maybe people will be able to mod fun into console games that were previously considered tedious and punishing like, say, Assassin's Creed.

I see what you did there! I look forward to playing your perfect game!

[Tim James]

I think we're safe. Sony will probably have some sort of bizarre restriction that limits this to Japan and the US. That means Eastern Europe, the saviors of PC gaming, won't be compelled to leave the platform, and will happily continue to make squad based tactical combat games, mature RPGs, and obscure hardcore strategy games for a few scraps of money.

[Moore]

They can be ranked and it has a rating and comment system similar to youtube. You can also subscribe to individual authors if you're a fan of their work, so you can keep track of whatever new stuff they do. I believe it also has a built in "recommend this to friends" tool.

Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=200029) has a follow up from Sony on the subject of charging:

er, so eventually the best player made content will suddenly have to be purchased, maybe. they think. Possibly.
Nice planning!

[gordonrumble]

Sounds like a good idea to me, as long as the charging is made extremely restrictive. You'd have thousands of levels people spend a lot of time trying to make a perfect level just to have the chance to charge for one eventually, and thousands more made just because the standards will be so high. It might shift the awesome : crap ratio upwards, and that's not a bad thing.
Doesn't this kind of depend on the execution by Sony to determine whether or not it is a good idea?

[Coca Cola Zero]

If you buy into Charles' basic idea, I think XNA is a much bigger threat than LBP in the long run, though XNA still needs to iron out the bugs in its community upload section (at least it has one and it isn't entirely theoretical at this point) and to get exactly the same sort of modders he's talking about (as opposed to indie or hobby developers who don't mind doing lower level coding), someone is going to have to release a more polished "Works out of the box" XNA engine than the ones that are currently available.

[Tim James]

If you buy into Charles' basic idea, I think XNA is a much bigger threat than LBP in the long run, though XNA still needs to iron out the bugs in its community upload section (at least it has one and it isn't entirely theoretical at this point) and to get exactly the same sort of modders he's talking about (as opposed to indie or hobby developers who don't mind doing lower level coding), someone is going to have to release a more polished "Works out of the box" XNA engine than the ones that are currently available.I thought the whole idea of XNA was portability. Wouldn't it be easy to release a game on PC then? Or maybe they wouldn't because of !!!pirates!!!

[Wallapuctus]

Eastern Europe, the saviors of PC gaming,

God bless them. They're also the saviors of heavy metal.

Actually, I do wish PC gaming would die, at least as far as big budget games. Either that, or take a lesson from Blizzard and develop for PCs that were cutting edge 5 years ago. It's too friggin expensive to upgrade a PC to play the latest games.

[Charles]

If you buy into Charles' basic idea, I think XNA is a much bigger threat than LBP in the long run, though XNA still needs to iron out the bugs in its community upload section (at least it has one and it isn't entirely theoretical at this point) and to get exactly the same sort of modders he's talking about (as opposed to indie or hobby developers who don't mind doing lower level coding), someone is going to have to release a more polished "Works out of the box" XNA engine than the ones that are currently available.

XNA isn't the same thing at all. XNA lets you make completely new games. This is a completely different area than mods.

[SpoofyChop]

I see what you did there! I look forward to playing your perfect game!

Well you won't be able to recognize it because it will have social stealth and it will blend in on the shelf and then it will pick your pocket and then proceed to hide in a haystack!

[Coca Cola Zero]

I thought the whole idea of XNA was portability. Wouldn't it be easy to release a game on PC then? Or maybe they wouldn't because of !!!pirates!!!


XNA is portable to the PC, which is nice, but it is ironically much more of a pain to actually distribute anything made with XNA on the PC due to all of dependencies on various bits of the .Net runtimes and such that may or may not exist on each end user's system. And my point isn't so much that XNA locks hobby developers to consoles as it is that it opens consoles up to them. One of the oft-mentioned bits of wisdom regarding PC gaming non-d0medness is that "the PC is the platform users will write their first games for because the consoles are closed to all but the big developers and this will ensure that PC gaming always has at least some market". The idea of console development being closed to people who are learning game programming or are otherwise not well established from the PC is something that is becoming increasingly untrue across all the major consoles and in a lot of ways console programming with something like XNA is actually a much more productive learning environment than writing games that target the PC.


XNA isn't the same thing at all. XNA lets you make completely new games. This is a completely different area than mods.


It is different, yeah, but there is also a huge difference between the type of modding LBP is talking about and the Counterstrike style mod scene on the PC. Whether or not either difference is significant depends upon what exactly your point is. Both the LBP modding and XNA weaken the PC's position as the obvious choice for the hobbiest/newb to get a foot in the door of "real" game development, so I'd argue that within the context of this thread they are in fact very similar.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Well you won't be able to recognize it because it will have social stealth and it will blend in on the shelf and then it will pick your pocket and then proceed to hide in a haystack!

Is Altaïr a dingleberry?

[roguefrog]

You cannot kill PC Gaming. Not even with a wish spell.

[theborbes]

Far be it from me to be rude, but I had to laugh just reading the title of this thread. Dude, this is your opinion and I respect that. Did you pick it out of a hat? because I from where I stand it sounds like you scrambled some words and wrote down whatever you got. At best I could only assume that you are not a PC gamer and don't really understand what it's like to be one. Fair enough.

[Coca Cola Zero]

You weren't there man, you weren't there. You could NEVER understand!

[checker]

Sure, but if you can work on mods for consoles, get a job, AND get paid... it wins over PC again. I do agree LBP won't be the one to do it. But if it can proof the business model... dark days ahead.

I dunno, if the consoles actually replicate enough of the characteristics to d0m pc gaming, including the openness, the ease of developing and distribution, the onlineness, the hard drive storage, and the "meritocracy" (giant quotes), then at some point who cares if they kill the pc, since those characteristics are the ones that are the reason people want the pc to survive. Certainly it's quite nice that they're cheap and ubiquitous and have no config issues.

It would suck if there was no mouse and keyboard, though, but Metroid on the Wii wasn't actually that bad mouse-look-wise and it would be even better with the new real 6dof accelerometer (assuming it actually works), so, for me, this points the way to a future console fps control scheme that does not make me want to slit my wrists. Presumably the same is possible for rts once you don't have the horrible O(n) feeling of trying to emulate a mouse with the joystick.

In other words, if I can develop an indie game in an arbitrary genre with a nice control scheme that I can distribute without somebody's fickle permission and charge what I want for it and keep a reasonable percent of the gross and access my own sites and yadda yadda yadda, then good riddance to the pc and its $2000 compatibility nightmares. Until that day, I don't think the pc is going to be d0med.

Chris

[beloved one]

I guess the mouselook (and optional many keyboard binds) is a big part of it, but the pc always pushes the interconnectivity limit.

I think it's interesting that nobody has chosen to implement a trackball, say, where the right analogue stick usually is. This would be a simple, straightforward, peripheral alteration that would bring the most egregious console control scheme issues in line with the pc.

[zengonzo]

You cannot kill PC Gaming. Not even with a wish spell.

If for no other reason than people will continue to own PCs .. The platform is always there.

[roguefrog]

In Non-Communist Korea, PC Gaming kills you!

[Tim James]

To cross-post annoying memes:

Teh Pc can nevAr lose!

[Talorc]

Sure, but if you can work on mods for consoles, get a job, AND get paid... it wins over PC again.

I do agree LBP won't be the one to do it. But if it can proof the business model... dark days ahead.

Regardless of the merits of this business model, it looks to me like it is a SOFTWARE feature, not a HARDWARE feature.

If this proves the business model - is there any particular reason why a similar system could not be relatively quickly added to Steam or Impulse? (Or even *shudder* Games for Windows Live).

Any issues faced on Steam would be identical to PSN issues - payment fraud, copyright infringement etc etc.

There is nothing inherently "console" in this idea. It could quite easily be implemented for PC.

[WarrenM]

Far be it from me to be rude, but I had to laugh just reading the title of this thread. Dude, this is your opinion and I respect that. Did you pick it out of a hat? because I from where I stand it sounds like you scrambled some words and wrote down whatever you got. At best I could only assume that you are not a PC gamer and don't really understand what it's like to be one. Fair enough.
Didn't work out so well, huh?

[ProStyle]

I think user generated content tied into community oriented distribution sites is a big deal, I imagine it will change the way in which we will perceive the value of future console titles. I remember the days of browsing CDROM & Stomped.com FTPs for random Quake mods and maps, downloading and trying everything there was - and then I think of browsing the Bungie.net community favorites, and I realize just how amazing it is that I can perform a very similar function (expand the options for a video game I already own in novel and unexpected ways) to what I was doing 10 years ago with an FTP client on a PC, manually unzipping archives and shuffling around directory structures.

Considering just how hard the mod scene has cratered since the heady years of the late nineties I can't see it making a comeback in the face of these developments. Aside from the Unreal series there isn't a lot of developer directed support funneled towards these creative endeavors, and they've only become more and more anemic in the face of flashier splash pages and feature creep.

I think this kind of incremental content creation and distribution is a natural extension of the areas in which consoles have been pushing for a long time with their online services, and will serve to cultivate a new appreciation for access to this material. I'm not so sure people will be willing to pay for it though, especially in such small chunks.

[BobJustBob]

Eurogamer gave away a few thousand beta keys earlier today, and because I'm unemployed I was able to get one.

The game is awesome. I just spent about 45 minutes riding and tweaking a homemade rocket ship in an empty level. The creation tools are simple but powerful, and the story levels are almost unbearably cute and full of collectible items. One story level had a key hanging at a height where I would reach it by riding past on a skateboard, but I was stuck in front of the board and missed it and the key was too high to reach by jumping. So I grabbed Humpty Dumpty's broken ass (he was on the board too), flipped it over, and dragged it underneath the key so I could reach it. Hooray for physics!

[Jason McMaster]

it keeps telling me the code is invalid.

[Dave Long]

I thought I read that the tools are not going to be included in the release?

[Rock8man]

I thought I read that the tools are not going to be included in the release?

http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/09/22/no-online-create-mode-for-littlebigplanet-at-launch/

You're probably thinking of the news that there will be no online Create mode for LBP at launch, but will be added in later. In other words, you can still do it offline, you just can't jump in co-operatively with your friends and do it. At least at launch.

[Jason McMaster]

Nevermind, I got it.

I dunno Dave. Maybe it's in the Euro release.

[BobJustBob]

it keeps telling me the code is invalid.

It's a Euro beta, so you have to make a Euro PSN account to use the code.

[Jason McMaster]

Yeah, reminds me of the chromehounds demo.

[Royal Fool]

I got it too. It's pretty neat.

[NuclearWinter]

Having spent a couple of hours now with the beta, I can easily see this game becoming my GotY (I'm a platformer fan). The level creation tools are amazingly slick and the level design in the story mode is very promising so far, plus wonderful art design and music. Moving between 2D planes took a little getting used to, but other than that the platforming mechanics feel pretty good - the object grabbing is nicely implemented.

My only negative is that the online multiplayer is very laggy (but ridiculously fun when it works), hope that's fixed for release.

[zengonzo]

Augh, damn you bastards!

[Dave Long]

http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/09/22/no-online-create-mode-for-littlebigplanet-at-launch/

You're probably thinking of the news that there will be no online Create mode for LBP at launch, but will be added in later. In other words, you can still do it offline, you just can't jump in co-operatively with your friends and do it. At least at launch.
Heh... PS3fanboy.com...

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. GAF was all atwitter over it but I didn't read too deeply into it. I fully believe this game is going to tank big time except with the hardest of the hardcore.

[theblackw0lf]

Video of the intro with Stephen Fry of Hitchhiker's fame doing the voice-over.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/269140.html?playlist=featured#comments_top

[BobJustBob]

Just played online some with Jazar and, holy shit, it was awesome. Between levels we went back to his spaceship where I could dance around and emote and chat while he picked another level for us to visit. No disconnects, no staring at menus.

[Brad Grenz]

Heh... PS3fanboy.com...

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. GAF was all atwitter over it but I didn't read too deeply into it. I fully believe this game is going to tank big time except with the hardest of the hardcore.

I think you're gonna be really, really wrong about that.

[dashingly]

I think you're gonna be really, really wrong about that.Yeah, didn't Sony say flat out that it is their "most important priority for 2008"?

[dogbert]

I fully believe this game is going to tank big time except with the hardest of the hardcore.

I've played the beta. You're so wrong.

[Hanacker]

I fully believe this game is going to tank big time except with the hardest of the hardcore.

That means the ideal strategy would be to sell the game for about $300 each then, yes?

[Rob_Merritt]

Welp, the controls kill the game for me. There was a slim chance I was getting a ps3 at this point anyways but moving a stick, tilting the contoler and hitting the triggers are the same time isn't happening with me at the controls.

[Hugin]

Heh... PS3fanboy.com...

I fully believe this game is going to tank big time except with the hardest of the hardcore.

You know how you get a feel for the music or movies or food or whatever that will appeal to your friends, just based on how well you've gotten to know their personalities over the years?

My casual gamer friends are going to kick down my door and wrestle the controller out of my hands to play this after I link the intro trailer in my blog.

[NuclearWinter]

Video of the intro with Stephen Fry of Hitchhiker's fame doing the voice-over.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/269140.html?playlist=featured#comments_top

I love that intro. Fry also does a great job of narrating the creation tutortials, of which there are a ton.

[Brad Grenz]

Welp, the controls kill the game for me. There was a slim chance I was getting a ps3 at this point anyways but moving a stick, tilting the contoler and hitting the triggers are the same time isn't happening with me at the controls.

I haven't played it, but it seemed from the intro that the tilting and holding triggers, while playing at least, was only for animating your sackboy, but not needed to actually accomplish anything in a level. It's more there to emote and goof around with online. The level creation might employ them in some manner, but I don't know. To just play a level it sounds like it's just the left analog and 1 button.

[NuclearWinter]

I haven't played it, but it seemed from the intro that the tilting and holding triggers, while playing at least, was only for animating your sackboy, but not needed to actually accomplish anything in a level. It's more there to emote and goof around with online. The level creation might employ them in some manner, but I don't know. To just play a level it sounds like it's just the left analog and 1 button.

This is all correct, with the addition that you use R1 to grab hold of things when playing (you use this a lot) and shake the controller to turn off the jetpack when you have one. Controls are very simple.

Level creation obviously uses more buttons, but AFAIK does not use controller tilting in any way.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. GAF was all atwitter over it but I didn't read too deeply into it. I fully believe this game is going to tank big time except with the hardest of the hardcore.
Any particular reason?

[Hugin]

This is all correct, with the addition that you use R1 to grab hold of things when playing (you use this a lot) and shake the controller to turn off the jetpack when you have one. Controls are very simple.

Level creation obviously uses more buttons, but AFAIK does not use controller tilting in any way.

Yeah, from a gameplay perspective: Left analog stick for maneuvering, X to jump, L1 to grab. That's all.

[Jason McMaster]

So far I like it. I'm not sure about calling it GotY, but it's definitely cute enough to sell a lot.

The only real complaint I have is the actual controls when running are a bit too touchy. I dislike the moving between the foreground and background, it's pretty hard to avoid randomly moving back and forth. This absolutely sucks when you have to line up for something.

[Jazar]

Just played online some with Jazar and, holy shit, it was awesome. Between levels we went back to his spaceship where I could dance around and emote and chat while he picked another level for us to visit. No disconnects, no staring at menus.

I had a blast! I was laughing so hard on some of those levels. It was awesome just picking random (but favored) levels to try out and seeing how much fun they were!

I want to know how most of the times the screen would favor you though when we would split up causing me to die. Once I flew off on the spaceship and died next time you flew off on the spaceship and I still died!

I can't wait until this game matures more and actually gets some good user levels. Right now you can tell they were all just experiments. The first one we did was *really* unique in that you had to destroy the castle to win the game.

[JM]

This sounds like a serious threat to Second Life. Everything else, not so much.

[Wholly Schmidt]

This sounds like a serious threat to Second Life. Everything else, not so much.
So it has penises?

[BigWeather]

So it has penises?

Why else would he be called "sackboy"?

[zengonzo]

Second Life? Are you sure you aren't thinking of Home?

[Holliday]

I can't really imagine the PC modding community getting siphoned away into stuff like LBP.

For the money argument, look at the Make Something Unreal contests. They brought some mod teams into working with Unreal because of the chance for getting paid for their mods. But an overwhelming amount of mods were being made for Half-Life/Then Source with no promise of compensation save for the eventual possibility of getting into the industry. I can't even remember the MSU contest winners, Alien Swarm maybe? (They've moved to Source).

Its possible that people prefer Source tools to create with (ha). But I'd figure LBP's editing tools are far more creatively restricting than Unreal Engine 2.x.

Coming from a background of making mods myself, when I look at the 'tools' in LBP and Spore I immediately abandon any notion of creating "whatever I want". Every spore creature still looks like it belongs in spore, every LBP level still has the LBP feel and vibe to it. The real ambitious and successful mods exist because people wanted to create something the original game did not offer.

LBP just lets you create variations on a theme, a platformer theme. It feels really just like a game mechanic, much like the creature creator. Its a toy, the act of creation is a good part of the enjoyment of the game. That is what I want out of it. I can see myself and Jenn having a great time crafting a level together and playing with the physics simulation, but you won't see me up late tightening up the graphics with my PS3 gamepad.

What I think it does tap into is the intense feeling of satisfaction that modding provides. Modding is certainly work a large portion of the time. But when everything works as you wanted the reward is colossal. Seeing your ambition play out on the screen is a great feeling.

A part of Charles's point I don't think has been addressed though is the potential powder trail LBP might serve to light. It won't be LBP's pay for levels or tools that bring over the PC modders, but it will spur Sony and other companies to invest in even more customizable games. Perhaps eventually trying to "Out-customize" each other. If the user-created content makes LBP a huge success maybe in a few years we'll see a console game with an open scripting language you can work with, then an open code base and etc.

I don't think we'll ever be writing code with a gamepad though, so if it gets to that point I think consoles will be so similar to PC's that the "PC Mod Community" won't really have to move much.

Oh and another note against the idea, I don't think any game developer is going to hire someone who creates good LBP levels. All of that game's development went into the tools. Someone with LBP level designing experience won't have the technical skill-set to work in a real development environment. It might serve to spark interest in level design, but LBP isn't a 'school' for game development. Working in the industry is the primary motivation for modding (who gets into game development for 'the money'?).

[Sol Invictus]

It's really sad to see the PC mod scene dying. Even Bethesda, which previously supported the community through its tools for Morrowind and Oblivion is refusing to develop and release mod tools for Fallout 3, at least in the immediate and near future.

There's a conspiracy theory that suggests that they want to make and release a few DLCs before they release it, and while Pete Hines denies this in saying that the reason they can't work on the tools is because they're too busy working on Fallout 3 and that Oblivion does exceptionally well on the 360 despite a lack of player created mods, it certainly signifies a single clear fact: they just don't think that the mod community is important enough to justify supporting it.

The mod community is fading into twilight.

[JM]

Second Life? Are you sure you aren't thinking of Home?

Player created content that they can make money off? No, not really.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Player created content that they can make money off? No, not really.That's the only connection it has to Second Life though. It's as much of a threat to Second Life as an announcement that you could sell custom paint jobs in Gran Tourismo 5 would be.

Game X You Can Sell Content In does not automatically compete with Game Y You Can Sell Content In.

[Kael]

It's really sad to see the PC mod scene dying. Even Bethesda, which previously supported the community through its tools for Morrowind and Oblivion is refusing to develop and release mod tools for Fallout 3, at least in the immediate and near future.

There's a conspiracy theory that suggests that they want to make and release a few DLCs before they release it, and while Pete Hines denies this in saying that the reason they can't work on the tools is because they're too busy working on Fallout 3 and that Oblivion does exceptionally well on the 360 despite a lack of player created mods, it certainly signifies a single clear fact: they just don't think that the mod community is important enough to justify supporting it.

The mod community is fading into twilight.

I wouldnt attach so much importance to one studio.

Modding is a growing field that is trying to push from the uber-dorks into the average game player. This kind of user created content is huge and supported by a growing number of games.

Developers have been battling between the power of modability compared to its ease of use, and we have a ton examples across that spectrum. Little Big Planet is another attempt (and a very promissing one) to try to make the tools as accessible as possible and still offer the player a lot of power.

But there is an inherent ceiling on the customization available on a console. Could I add a "bullet time" mode that allows the player to slow down the game? Could I apply stats to my sack people that effect their abilities?

Im sure the answer to both questions is no. Thats not to say that LBP isnt going to be a great game (and a day 1 purchase for me) just that from a modability perspective its light years away from the best modability thats possible on a pc. Modability isnt a check box that either exists or doesnt in a game, its a wide range of options.

I think that LBP is good for the PC. They can show some tools that developers can adopt that make modding easier, it can also prepare some modders who start with things like LBP and then move into more powerful modding environments. Im excited to see how it works.

[JM]

That's the only connection it has to Second Life though. It's as much of a threat to Second Life as an announcement that you could sell custom paint jobs in Gran Tourismo 5 would be.

Game X You Can Sell Content In does not automatically compete with Game Y You Can Sell Content In.

I'm having to work within the confines of what I think is a terrible premise to begin with - the opening post - so cut me some slack.

[Royal Fool]

After playing many times through the few official levels that are on offer, I can say that the game certainly has a lot of replay potential. There's many ways to put secrets into levels and hide bonuses.

The level editor is powerful enough, but it's also really complex for casual folks (even though the interface couldn't get much more simple). I still have some problems with it; like when I want to create a horizontal block, I have to get a square first, make it much bigger than I need on both ends and then cut it off from one side. Why isn't there just a simple method to resize objects on either the X or Y axis, not both? The different "layers" can also get a bit fiddly, where flat objects go further into the background or front than objects that take up a single layer and yet take up space. Hard to explain really...

But it is powerful, no doubt. I can definitely see some dedicated folks making really interesting levels, thanks to all the cool little tools.

If there is enough original content on offer when the game ships (that is, the story mode stuff, which are the official levels) then most players will have a great time just going through those or checking out the occasional user-made level. The actual content creation will be reserved for people with far more patience and skill.

[Jazar]

If there is enough original content on offer when the game ships (that is, the story mode stuff, which are the official levels) then most players will have a great time just going through those or checking out the occasional user-made level. The actual content creation will be reserved for people with far more patience and skill.

There are supposedly 50+ levels in story mode not including tutorials.

[zengonzo]

I'm having to work within the confines of what I think is a terrible premise to begin with - the opening post - so cut me some slack.

In fairness to you, I'd completely forgotten about the opening post, and was simply assuming we'd converted to plain discussion of the game.

So I'm with you now. I can't see LBP's success or otherwise bearing much significance to the PC world.

[Rossignol]

Haven't mods been in decline since next-gen game engines made it too time consuming to produce new art?

Interesting mods in PC gaming are a rarity these days, I find.

[NuclearWinter]

Man, I've had hours of fun just trying out the hundreds of rough, unpolished, experimental levels people have made in the first day of beta.

Oh dear God, someone has already created a rickroll level with giant Rick Astley image.

[Kael]

Haven't mods been in decline since next-gen game engines made it too time consuming to produce new art?

Interesting mods in PC gaming are a rarity these days, I find.

I don't think so. Look at the user created content in Spore. The Sims2 has a massive mod community which will no doubt be brought over to the Sims3. Guitar Hero 4 is supposed to include user creatable tracks.

Modding isn't only doing well, its getting stronger year after year. Games are going away from "play through exactly what the developer designed" and toward "build the game you want to play". This is a vast spectrum with the new Banjo-Kazoie on one end, where you can put together your own vehicles, and Civ4 on the other where they have released source code and use graphic/audio/data standards that are easily modified with public tools.

Everyone has a different definition of where exactly "modding" falls in this spectrum. But I think its all modding to some degree, and the more the better.

[Royal Fool]

I tried plugging in three webcams to use for the photo stickers, but the PS3 wouldn't recognize any of them (I even tried the Xbox Vision cam). I guess I'll need to get myself a PS3 Eye if I want to take photos, damn.

Too bad the game doesn't support using photos from your HDD/memory stick.

[John Sansker]

Because a lot of modders aren't in it for the money? I mean, it does seem likely that LBP will attract a mod community, and maybe even more so if modders are allowed to charge for mods. That said, it has yet to be demonstrated that players will pay for these mods, especially if LBP also has free content available. I suspect a lot of folks will scream "horse armor!"

I seriously doubt that LPB's "charge for mods" system will have any impact on PC modding one way or the other.

Quite true.
In a space game there is always a Star Wars or Star Trek mod, these happen reguardless. (go check out Sporepedia's top 200 spaceships, X-wing, Enterprise comprise 1/3 or so of the top 200)

I can see what you are saying here Charles, but, it could be just a way for some devs to find creative people to work for them rather than putting up a help wanted blurb on their website.
Not everything that the console assholes charge money for "pan out" so to speak for them.
Microsoft for example, "Hey, let's charge the PC assholes for a LIVE!! ssubscription".
We see how well that worked out for them.

[Fozzle]

I don't think so. Look at the user created content in Spore. The Sims2 has a massive mod community which will no doubt be brought over to the Sims3. Guitar Hero 4 is supposed to include user creatable tracks.

Modding isn't only doing well, its getting stronger year after year. Games are going away from "play through exactly what the developer designed" and toward "build the game you want to play". This is a vast spectrum with the new Banjo-Kazoie on one end, where you can put together your own vehicles, and Civ4 on the other where they have released source code and use graphic/audio/data standards that are easily modified with public tools.

Everyone has a different definition of where exactly "modding" falls in this spectrum. But I think its all modding to some degree, and the more the better.
I wouldn't call Spore "modding" There is a big difference between being creative with combining parts from a pallete, And creating 6 multi layer textures that layer for one piece of bumpy skin...Moding on newer engines today *IS* harder especially in the First person games, which is what I usually think of when I think "mod"

[Kael]

I wouldn't call Spore "modding" There is a big difference between being creative with combining parts from a pallete, And creating 6 multi layer textures that layer for one piece of bumpy skin...Moding on newer engines today *IS* harder especially in the First person games, which is what I usually think of when I think "mod"

Its a spectrum from the most basic to the most complex. I think if we were to ask 12 different people what is modding and what isnt we would get 12 different answers.

If we were to assume that combining things from a pallete isnt modding then Little Big Planet isn't moddable either (as I understand it). But I dont think there is any hard fast line as to what is and isnt modding. They are just a variety of tools that go from incrediably basic customization (being able to name your team in a baseball sim program) to powerful tools like source code access.

Personally I dont think that labeling what is and isnt modding is all that important. Im just gald to see more big games accepting user created content in various forms as a growing trend.

[beloved one]

I wouldn't call Spore "modding" There is a big difference between being creative with combining parts from a pallete, And creating 6 multi layer textures that layer for one piece of bumpy skin...Moding on newer engines today *IS* harder especially in the First person games, which is what I usually think of when I think "mod"

It's mainly harder because fps's havent tried systems that support being creative combining parts with a pallete. People clearly care less about whether one dragon has the perfect combination of shininess, iridescence and sliminess coating its scales, and more about being able to create a red dragon a blue dragon and a green dragon in a game otherwise without them, in a matter of hour(s) instead of weeks of professional or semi-professional artistry.

FPS, PC modding has mostly been tacked on, letting the general public use the same tools that developers used. It was fine until development budgets skyrocketed, leaving unfunded projects in the dust. Nothing stops an fps from incorporating a spore-like editor, just like nothing really prevented a previous sim game from incorporating spore-like editors, except the willingness to invest in such technology.

[Andrew Mayer]

I've talked a lot of dev teams out of their dreams of an editor because I point out that A) It has to be as polished as the rest of the product, and B) It has to be fun.

At the very least it's taking time and resources away from the primary product.

[gordonrumble]

Personally I dont think that labeling what is and isnt modding is all that important. Im just gald to see more big games accepting user created content in various forms as a growing trend.

This discussion is however beginning to revolve around modding, and therefore a clarity of definition so that everyone is on the same playing field might be beneficial to the debate. I propose:

modding: modification of the underlying game code to create systems that the developer had not built in to the game himself/herself. ie, saving a game is not modding, adding or altering assets is.

I'd argue that LittleBigPlanet isn't modding per se, as the player isn't actually creating anything new; they are recombining pre-existing assets to create a unique experience. It's creative, difficult, amazing and all that, but not modding as I see it. It's kind of semantics anyways.

[NuclearWinter]

I'd argue that LittleBigPlanet isn't modding per se, as the player isn't actually creating anything new

I don't know, I see what you're saying. But while you're limited to creating with the in game materials, you're still making new objects out of those materials. It's not like the Hedgehog Mobile (http://i37.tinypic.com/30sirmw.jpg) or Giant Adolf Hitler I blew up at the end of one user made level are part of game out of the box. So is it really so different from modding? (I realise it's not the near unlimited flexibility of PC modding)

Plus people are already importing their own textures, despite the shitty limitation that they have to be captured with the PlaystationEye camera.

[gordonrumble]

I don't know, I see what you're saying. But while you're limited to creating with the in game materials, you're still making new objects out of those materials. It's not like the Hedgehog Mobile (http://i37.tinypic.com/30sirmw.jpg) or Giant Adolf Hitler I blew up at the end of one user made level are part of game out of the box. So is it really so different from modding? (I realise it's not the near unlimited flexibility of PC modding)

Plus people are already importing their own textures, despite the shitty limitation that they have to be captured with the PlaystationEye camera.

Maybe 'content creation' would be a better term?

[NuclearWinter]

For those with the beta, just wanted to throw out a recommendation for the levels Garden and Black by geosautus. Really nicely designed.

Had a blast playing with you earlier, Jazar. Enjoyed your Crumbling Tower level too :)

Good grief, from the MM site: LBP Tetris (http://www.mediamolecule.com/2008/09/25/inspiration-updated/)

[theborbes]

the title for this thread is so stupid it makes me want to complain about it publically.

[MSUSteve]

I received a beta key via email this morning from Game Informer. Apparently I was randomly selected from the pool of GI newsletter subscribers. Nice! Thanks for the recommendation NuclearWinter. I'll be checking those levels out.

Since I can't download the beta until I get home from work, can someone tell me what the beta includes? Are there pre-made levels? Is the content creation open and fully featured?

[dogbert]

Since I can't download the beta until I get home from work, can someone tell me what the beta includes? Are there pre-made levels? Is the content creation open and fully featured?

There's the first four levels from the retail game which walk you through the world & gameplay mechanics, plus a series of tutorials for level creation (tons of tutorials for this). As far as I can tell, all of the world building tools are available in the beta & you're able to play levels created by other users in the beta.

[Jazar]

For those with the beta, just wanted to throw out a recommendation for the levels Garden and Black by geosautus. Really nicely designed.

Had a blast playing with you earlier, Jazar. Enjoyed your Crumbling Tower level too :)

Good grief, from the MM site: LBP Tetris (http://www.mediamolecule.com/2008/09/25/inspiration-updated/)

Thanks! Yeah it was fun. I made a few changes to my level (Now it's "Little Big Tomb Raider" to sell out to 'Da Man and get more people to check it out heh). It's actually based on a template but I kept screwing with it and the whole level was breaking apart - hence the 'crumbling' aspect.

MSUSteve, The beta only has 4 premade levels but the levels that the users have created with the beta are already astounding and this is only using a limited number of resources. I can't wait until the full game comes out. I was kind of losing the hype a bit but after getting hands on I have to have this day one.

One level I played, "Heist" i think it was called, you had to get in a car, go into a bank, dodge the 'cops' and crack the code to a safe to get in! When you win you get to keep the 'cop' enemy as a prize to use in your own level!

[MSUSteve]

I can't wait to get my hands on this tonight.

[zengonzo]

Steve .. Steve, buddy ..

How about you give me your login so I can get it, too?

C'mon, help a brother out!

[MSUSteve]

zen, you know I love you, but I must selfishly keep my wonderful beta key to myself. There are supposed to be a lot of ways to get one though, so keep an eye on all the major game sites. I think Gamespot is doing some sort of beta key giveaway.

[zengonzo]

I was thinking along the lines of how it lets you re-download items on multiple systems .. Bit of a reach in either case.

I'm a bit surprised just how broadly they're spreading this thing. They really looking for a stress test? Trying to grow interest?

I'll have to keep on the refresh button.

[NuclearWinter]

I was thinking along the lines of how it lets you re-download items on multiple systems .. Bit of a reach in either case.

Just to warn people; it will lock the original user out of the beta for 24 hours if you try this and probably permanantly if done multiple times.

[zengonzo]

Shucks, I'd only been kidding around, didn't really expect Steve to give me his login information.

But I'm glad that you mentioned it.

Hopefully I'll receive a code in the coming bonanza.

[Royal Fool]

I made two levels myself - "Super Short Sulk" and "Lunatic Fringe". You can try searching for them or adding my PSN username (RobertOrri). They're nothing too special, the former is a very short test level and the other features a rocketship and a shuttle (which are available as gifts if you can find and get them).

There's a lot of interesting levels out there even at this early stage, very promising. I was skeptical before but totally sold on this thing after having tried it first-hand.

[NuclearWinter]

One level I played, "Heist" i think it was called, you had to get in a car, go into a bank, dodge the 'cops' and crack the code to a safe to get in! When you win you get to keep the 'cop' enemy as a prize to use in your own level!

Be sure to check out the second part ("Heist Part 2"), very creative and funny level. Make sure you get caught by the police wagon on one playthrough :)

And I love that you can give players prizes.

[Jazar]

Be sure to check out the second part ("Heist Part 2"), very creative and funny level. Make sure you get caught by the police wagon on one playthrough :)

And I love that you can give players prizes.

That was amazing! Is there away to not get caught in jail? In the beginning of the level it looks like there's an area you can get to.

[Jazar]

Someone took the sound samples from the demo and created a sweet level featuring GnR's of Sweet Child of Mine.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd2fXaqtZMM&eurl=http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=39429&page=42

Also someone made a very cool piano:

http://www.littlebigmadness.com/videos/the-piano-level/

[scharmers]

I wouldn't call Spore "modding" There is a big difference between being creative with combining parts from a pallete, And creating 6 multi layer textures that layer for one piece of bumpy skin...Moding on newer engines today *IS* harder especially in the First person games, which is what I usually think of when I think "mod"

Spore is modding's gateway drug, established by The Industry to continually feed the content maw. The idea is that there's going to be some yots who just aren't satisfied with the way you can stretch the primitives in Spore or get the stripes just where you want them, then an Industry Agent will introduce them to Milkshape and/or Photoshop ... and then one day BLAM said yots will be mindlessly normal mapping away in the bowels of the EA Ministry of Fun (MiniFun).

[Hugin]

So, I'm finding that right now I'm less interested in making levels in LBP than I am in making various machines/toys. Last night I was making a rocket powered VTOL/Hovercraft thing. Which... didn't quite work, but I think I can get it cracked tonight! (And the various ways it tended to fail were hilarious)

[Prodigy]

So this is not actually a game.

[Hugin]

So this is not actually a game.

Hrm? Sure it is. The full game will apparently have something like 60 finished levels and a storyline, plus whatever levels other people make when you search online. I'm just saying that right now I'm playing a minigame called "Figure out why the hovercraft crashed."

[NuclearWinter]

So this is not actually a game.

Would Mario not be a game if it also came with a level editor?

All I've done is play other people's levels, not really touched the creation tools myself. I've already had dozens of hours of platforming fun just from playing the beta.

[MSUSteve]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about the beta for LBP or not. I guess I'll just say I'm not finding the actual game mechanics to be all that interesting or good. I haven't tried to build anything myself, but I have to admit that I'm unlikely to ever do so. It's just not my thing. Having played some player created levels, it's certainly a mixed bag in terms of quality, but even the best levels are hampered by the somewhat imprecise control of Sackboy. The jump feels sluggish and a bit off and Sackboy sometimes retains too much momentum, causing me to fall off of things where I feel like I shouldn't. The only other thing he can do (at least that I can see) is grab. So he jumps, runs, and grabs. He doesn't duck. He can't obtain powers or shoot or throw. I dunno. I see this getting boring quickly.

[Prodigy]

Would Mario not be a game if it also came with a level editor?

All I've done is play other people's levels, not really touched the creation tools myself. I've already had dozens of hours of platforming fun just from playing the beta.

Let's say I was mildly trolling. Of course this is a game, but as MSUSteve put it the actual gameplay in itself seems to be less interesting that all the other mechanics. A great sandbox if you will, where you spend much more time building stuff and pushing the limits of the physics system and trying out things than actually playing what's supposed to be a platformer in the first place.

Of course there's nothing wrong with it, I'm just glad I'm not the one who's gonna have to review it.

[Rock8man]

... somewhat imprecise control of Sackboy. The jump feels sluggish and a bit off and Sackboy sometimes retains too much momentum, causing me to fall off of things where I feel like I shouldn't. The only other thing he can do (at least that I can see) is grab. So he jumps, runs, and grabs. He doesn't duck. He can't obtain powers or shoot or throw. I dunno. I see this getting boring quickly.

Uh-oh. Poor platforming game mechanics is the only thing I was afraid of. I wonder if I should cancel my pre-order? That's the one thing that I could see going wrong with this game. The one thing that it makes it more advisable to either wait for reviews, or rent first. Dave Long's statement that this game will be a flop also makes more sense now if he'd played a preview copy and made that prediction here based on what he saw of the core game mechanics.

Because if the core platforming mechanics are fun, then the whole level-editor thing is just a huge bonus. If they're not, then the level-editor will be largely irrelevant to most users.

[Hugin]

Let's say I was mildly trolling. Of course this is a game, but as MSUSteve put it the actual gameplay in itself seems to be less interesting that all the other mechanics. A great sandbox if you will, where you spend much more time building stuff and pushing the limits of the physics system and trying out things than actually playing what's supposed to be a platformer in the first place.

Of course there's nothing wrong with it, I'm just glad I'm not the one who's gonna have to review it.

The problem with this notion is that the beta is an older build, with three levels designed mostly as tutorials, and everyone else has had, what, up to a week in uneven dribs and drabs as the beta keys have trickled out? I don't think anyone has, to any meaningful degree, actually played the gameplay portion of the game yet.

[Prodigy]

The problem with this notion is that the beta is an older build, with three levels designed mostly as tutorials, and everyone else has had, what, up to a week in uneven dribs and drabs as the beta keys have trickled out? I don't think anyone has, to any meaningful degree, actually played the gameplay portion of the game yet.

Well let's wait for the final version and the reviews, then.

For the moment the perception I have of this game is an awesomely designed one, but with the depth of a Facebook application. Let's hope I'm totally wrong.

[MSUSteve]

No doubt you should wait on your chance to play the game, or at least reviews from people you trust, before deciding whether or not to buy. My impressions are just on what I've had a chance to play. Now I'm not sure why something like the jumping mechanic would be different in the beta code as opposed to the retail code, but I don't make games. It seems to me like that'd be something that was pretty set by now, but again, I have no idea how/if something that fundamental is adjusted this late in the game. I also don't know whether or not Sackboy will acquire some more interesting powers/moves/abilities in the retail version. I certainly hope so, because what he can do in the beta is very limited.

[Hugin]

No doubt you should wait on your chance to play the game, or at least reviews from people you trust, before deciding whether or not to buy. My impressions are just on what I've had a chance to play. Now I'm not sure why something like the jumping mechanic would be different in the beta code as opposed to the retail code, but I don't make games. It seems to me like that'd be something that was pretty set by now, but again, I have no idea how/if something that fundamental is adjusted this late in the game. I also don't know whether or not Sackboy will acquire some more interesting powers/moves/abilities in the retail version. I certainly hope so, because what he can do in the beta is very limited.

One thing a lot of people are working on in the level creator is things for Sackpeople to control that confer other abilities. Vehicles, grabbable weapons, level embedded devices like large cannons and cranes and such. There have also been some experiments with pet allies. And don't forget a Sackperson can fly via jetpacks.

Yes, compared to some platformers the jumps are floaty. That doesn't bug me tremendously, it's just an adjustment. One interesting thing is you can build height and momentum from multiple jumps or runs, which means a good level designer could trade focusing on pixel level precision and instead try to get certain kinds of almost rhythmic jump chains or puzzles going.

[Jazar]

I see this game getting extremely good reviews. The content is limitless and there is an suprising amount of game variety that you can accomplish with even a limited toolset. Sure sackboy's actions are just jumps and grabs but from this people have created a tetris level (http://www.mediamolecule.com/2008/09/25/inspiration-in-motion/), a helicopter level (http://gastronomicgamer.blogspot.com/2008/08/little-big-planet-helicopter.html), a Shadow of the Collosus level (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170293) and more.

The controlls & jumping mechanics are fine IMO. They are just different. The game levels are great, the graphics and music are amazing. The community features are outstanding. I really don't see this game getting poor review scores.

[MSUSteve]

One thing a lot of people are working on in the level creator is things for Sackpeople to control that confer other abilities. Vehicles, grabbable weapons, level embedded devices like large cannons and cranes and such. There have also been some experiments with pet allies. And don't forget a Sackperson can fly via jetpacks.
Sounds good. I haven't seen any of that stuff yet. Is there a way to sort levels in the beta by rating? I'd like to find some of these really high quality levels people keep talking up.

[Jazar]

Sounds good. I haven't seen any of that stuff yet. Is there a way to sort levels in the beta by rating? I'd like to find some of these really high quality levels people keep talking up.

Not in the beta, although I believe the most hearted levels float to the first "page", could be wrong though. The full version will have more sorting options.

[zengonzo]

which means a good level designer could trade focusing on pixel level precision and instead try to get certain kinds of almost rhythmic jump chains or puzzles going.

Or even atmosphere and exploration.

[NuclearWinter]

Let's say I was mildly trolling. Of course this is a game, but as MSUSteve put it the actual gameplay in itself seems to be less interesting that all the other mechanics. A great sandbox if you will, where you spend much more time building stuff and pushing the limits of the physics system and trying out things than actually playing what's supposed to be a platformer in the first place.

And as I put it back on page 2; the story levels seem very promising and the mechanics feel good to me :)

But hey, to each his own. I've seen a couple of people (from the hundreds of impressions elsewhere) who didn't like the mechanics, so I'm sure it's not going to be to everyone's taste. It took a little bit to get used to the plane shifting (and a lot of level creators haven't started using this well yet), but after a short while I was running and jumping around levels with ease. There's a degree of floatiness to the jumps but it just takes a little practice to learn how the momentum effects them and then they become easily predictable.

I'm not very creative so don't have any big plans for making my own levels, but the idea of a platformer with a never ending amount of fun levels to play was enough to have me excited. Playing the beta has just made me want it even more. I can't wait just to see more of the story levels (which Edge magazine has labeled "the purest 2D design we’ve seen since Super Mario World"), let alone the thousands of user levels which will follow.

[theblackw0lf]

The creator of "Shadow of the Littlebigcollosus" played the retail version and says there are considerable improvements between the beta and retail. So for some that are disappointed in the Beta I wouldn't give up just yet.

[mbmonk]

Some modders get jobs in the industry. So there is some payoff for their work. I don't think it's a 'assualt' on the PC. I think people mod the games they like. Platformers are not big on the PC. So I fail to see how this would be yet another 'nail' in the coffin of PC gaming.

LBP MAY bring more people into creation, and that is GREAT. But it takes another level of talent and dedication to make levels for AAA titles. The mod scene on the PC will be fine because there will always be that level of hackers and tinkers on the PC.

[zengonzo]

Holy crap.

Calculator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiRgYBHoAoU)

[Brad Grenz]

OMG, that is so awesome.

[Chris Nahr]

Wow... that's incredible. When the video starts you think, oh well, LBP has arithmetic functions, big deal. Then it turns out... it doesn't!

[WarrenM]

Hah! Very cool.

[NuclearWinter]

Anyone in the beta needs to check out God of War - Demon Skull by geosautus (I have it hearted, so if I'm on your friend list then you can find it easily). There have been some fantastic levels appearing over the past few days.

[Jazar]

Favorite level so far is Sky Pirates. HUGE level with flying airships, mini-bosses, enemies, vehicles, dialog. Amazing stuff. It's too bad the beta only has about 3 songs. Can't wait for the full version.

[zengonzo]

Does it not let you 'generate' songs?

[Royal Fool]

No, and you cannot import your own music either.

[gordonrumble]

Heh, MM commented on the calculator video telling the guy their collective minds were blown.

[zengonzo]

No, and you cannot import your own music either.

Ouch.

Though if the calculator is any base demonstration, some lunatic will craft an in-game mp3 player within the first couple months.

[Jazar]

Does it not let you 'generate' songs?

Yes you can 'generate' songs. See the Sweet Child of Mine video I linked earlier. Still a lot of work for a simple midi tune though.

There is also "complex" songs in the game which allow you to isolate and compose all the different layers of the song however you want. For example you can start the level with just the bass beats then each level introduce a new secion (rythm, vocals, guitar, etc), or bring it down to set the mood in certain areas, etc. The beta only has one of these songs and it gives a surprising amount of variety.

[zengonzo]

The Sweet Child of Mine was what I was mentally referencing for a mechanical solution (mp3 player), but the composing you describe is what I'd hoped and expected would be actually in the game system.

Glad to hear it!

[NuclearWinter]

Since we've had videos posted for some of the more gimmicky (but cool) creations, I figured I'd link to a couple of the better gameplay based user created levels that have popped up in the last few days. Just to give an idea of some of the other things people are doing with the limited beta toolset.

God of War - Demon Skull (part 1) (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jiweBvnoVbo) (part 2) (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=snbxjnDI7I0)
LittleBigPhantasy (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qbc2BQYIuCs)

(videos aren't mine)

[zengonzo]

Cool.

Hadn't realized Go! Team would figure into the actual game soundtrack. What a perfect group for a hobo-chic game.

[Kael]

Since we've had videos posted for some of the more gimmicky (but cool) creations, I figured I'd link to a couple of the better gameplay based user created levels that have popped up in the last few days. Just to give an idea of some of the other things people are doing with the limited beta toolset.

God of War - Demon Skull (part 1) (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jiweBvnoVbo) (part 2) (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=snbxjnDI7I0)
LittleBigPhantasy (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qbc2BQYIuCs)

(videos aren't mine)

Those are interesting but im really surprised you cant add your own audio. The potential for dialog, sound effects, and weird noises with this game is incredible.

Maybe they realize its impossible to do without running into copyright issues. Speaking of which, how do they handle copyrighted images (say a simpsons level with pictures of all the characters and locations) xrated material (a level based on a trip through richard geres colon) or innappropriate material (a level where you play a catholic priest and the goal is to hunt down and molest as many altar boys as possible)?

[NuclearWinter]

Those are interesting but im really surprised you cant add your own audio. The potential for dialog, sound effects, and weird noises with this game is incredible.

Maybe they realize its impossible to do without running into copyright issues. Speaking of which, how do they handle copyrighted images (say a simpsons level with pictures of all the characters and locations) xrated material (a level based on a trip through richard geres colon) or innappropriate material (a level where you play a catholic priest and the goal is to hunt down and molest as many altar boys as possible)?

It will be moderated, ala SingStar. Users can flag levels that contain naughty content, moderators will check it, level will be locked and removed.

I agree about the custom audio, it's a real shame. They're going to regularly add new features and content after release, and much of it will apparently be based on community requests, so I'm hoping they will consider it.

[Jazar]

I'm not going to cry too much about the lack of custom music. I would shudder at the idea of all the Final Fantasy remix songs that many levels would have.

[Kael]

I'm not going to cry too much about the lack of custom music. I would shudder at the idea of all the Final Fantasy remix songs that many levels would have.

No doubt. I actually dont miss custom music at all. I miss the ability to add a cool sound effect to something created in the game. Audio is an under appreciated aspect of world creation and just as important as the visual for setting a games style and creating immersion.

[Jazar]

I don't have the sound file list in front of me but from what I can remember it was a *huge* list. And the best part was not only letting you use just the files but adjust the pitch of the sound to add a huge amount of variety. Further up I linked to a LBP piano level (http://www.littlebigmadness.com/videos/the-piano-level/) that is using (I believe) just one sound file.

[Lee Johnson]

Did anyone post this one yet? I saw it linked from slashdot. Holy cow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vwn3zuMXok

[Rock8man]

Did anyone post this one yet? I saw it linked from slashdot. Holy cow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vwn3zuMXok

That's a song much better suited to played through midi sound files than the Guns N Roses video posted earlier, since the original song is also on piano, and it's much easier to emulate a piano tune with midi sounds. Very nice. Although, the perfectionist in me would point out that the tune was a little faster paced than the original at the beginning of the song.

[zengonzo]

So does LBP have an integrated YouTube upload?

I'd started to assume it had, from the videos that have been popping up. But a couple have been recorded from a camera.

[hong]

So, is LBP killing PC gaming, or not?

[theblackw0lf]

So, is LBP killing PC gaming, or not?

No, but it's killing my reluctance to buy a PS3.

[NuclearWinter]

So does LBP have an integrated YouTube upload?

I'd started to assume it had, from the videos that have been popping up. But a couple have been recorded from a camera.

Nope, but it's been hinted by the developers that this will be added soon after release.

A lot of my favourite levels from beta don't have videos available.

[Jazar]

Good opinion article on Gamasutra: Why LittleBigPlanet Is Web 2.0 For Games, Fulfilled (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20561)

[intruder]

Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=259015) gives a 9/10 and yet fanboys cry foul (Halo 3 got a 10/10...)

[Rock8man]

Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=259015) gives a 9/10 and yet fanboys cry foul (Halo 3 got a 10/10...)

Well, they criticize both the controls and the checkpoint lives system:

But there's the slightest lack of precision and definition to the floaty jump, a hint of stickiness, the timing's off by a fraction of a fraction of a second. When the game presents you with exacting challenges of dexterity and timing, as it occasionally does, that's a minor annoyance. When it's combined with the vague, slow and over-zealously auto-corrected movement between the game's three planes of depth, it's a problem.

Then there's the checkpoint lives system, which gives you an infinite number of lives for a level, but only three (or on too-rare occasions, six) for any given checkpoint. Although checkpoints are generously and well placed, three lives just aren't enough for some of the harder sections, and if you lose them all, it's back to the start of the level. Abandoning lives completely would have stripped all the tension out of the game, but this inflexible system creates half a dozen chokepoints of almost unbearable, teeth-grinding irritation that simply didn't need to be there.

But in all other ways, the review is positive. So 9/10 sounds very appropriate, given the text of the review.

The Checkpoint Lives system doesn't sound like just a minor issue to me either.

[Zylon]

I just want to see an LBP version of Smurf Rescue. Complete with lethal tufts of grass.

[intruder]

Well, they criticize both the controls and the checkpoint lives system:



But in all other ways, the review is positive. So 9/10 sounds very appropriate, given the text of the review.

The Checkpoint Lives system doesn't sound like just a minor issue to me either.

I think it's justified. Just saying that some people are never happy.
Check the comments for a laugh. :p

[NuclearWinter]

IGN review (http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/919/919111p1.html) is also up, six pages and 9.5 score.

Closing Comments
As you can see, I had a ton to say in this review, but that's because there's a ton to this game. LittleBigPlanet is a massive game, one that is essentially two parts intertwined so well that they're practically inseparable. Media Molecule has created a brilliant platformer, and then given you the tools to recreate the whole thing over again, or better yet, to create your own ideas from scratch. It's not perfect - the controls could be tighter, automatically shifting between planes can be problematic, the editor isn't quite as robust as you might hope - but what's there is nothing short of astounding. If you own a PlayStation 3, you cannot miss this. If you don't have a PS3 yet, this is the reason to get one.

[Rock8man]

I think it's justified. Just saying that some people are never happy.
Check the comments for a laugh. :p

Yeah, I just checked the comments section. Amazing. Some of it is definitely very amusing. These people need to stop being so focused on the console wars.

[scharmers]

No, but it's killing my reluctance to buy a PS3.


Wife already ordered mine for Christmas :0

(I'd rather have a 360, but after personally seeing them die and die and die day after day....who could buy one of these things?)

[WarrenM]

(I'd rather have a 360, but after personally seeing them die and die and die day after day....who could buy one of these things?)
*raises hand*

[scharmers]

Wait, you know, I take that back.

PC Gaming is not d0med.

The PC is what you play when your XBox has been shipped off for replacment.

No, because then I could always try to beat Persona 3 on my PS2.

Wait; what?

[WarrenM]

I've gone through 2 XBoxen now and I'd recommend the console to anyone. It's the best thing going.

[Coca Cola Zero]

I did have one Xbox 360 fail but both its replacement and my second XBox 360 have been going strong for a long while now. I just bought a brand new Elite (via Dell's $299/Elite deal) so now I have 3 fully working 360s but I plan to sell one of the non-Elites since having 3 is a bit overkill.

IMO the 360 is so worth having. And anecdotally based on friends buying 360s over the past couple years I don't think RROD is really much of a factor anymore on new units. The RROD was a very serious problem and Microsoft made things 1000% worse for themselves PR-wise by running people through the refurb treadmill and they deserve to be scorned for it lest they let something like that happen again, but if you're in the market for a console right now it doesn't make sense to not buy a 360 because you fear the RROD.

[Fozzle]

Is anyone else really wishing that the beta was live a bit closer to the release date? I have all these ideas on paper
that need a poppit...

And for your enjoyment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuzI0ySlcT4

[Matthew Gallant]

IGN review (http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/919/919111p1.html) is also up, six pages and 9.5 score.
This is written by the same schmuck who gave God Hand a 3.0; just in case anyone hadn't read it yet, now you know not to bother.

[Staff Sergeant]

Did anyone post this one yet? I saw it linked from slashdot. Holy cow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vwn3zuMXok

Holy shit, this one (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5uZr3JWYdy8) is awesome, sort of similar to the posted one.

[Rock8man]

Holy shit, this one (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5uZr3JWYdy8) is awesome, sort of similar to the posted one.

Wow, that is pretty awesome. What system was Mario Paint released for, and how come it's being linked to left and right these days? It's as if everyone rediscovered the game all at once. Isn't it really old? (It certainly sounds like it, but that might just be my heavy bias against all things MIDI).

[Staff Sergeant]

Wow, that is pretty awesome. What system was Mario Paint released for, and how come it's being linked to left and right these days? It's as if everyone rediscovered the game all at once. Isn't it really old? (It certainly sounds like it, but that might just be my heavy bias against all things MIDI).

It was SNES. I don't know about the left and right, I found that quite a while ago, but the LBP stuff with music reminded me of it.

[NuclearWinter]

A week before release and metacritic score sitting at 95% average... and the release gets delayed in Europe :(

The release of Sony's highly anticipated PlayStation 3 title LittleBigPlanet has been delayed in Europe.

The game was due for release next week, October 24, but now some retailers are estimating the game may be delayed by three weeks until November 14.

However, GamesIndustry.biz understands that the title may not suffer such a long delay to retail, and a new date is expected to be announced by Sony shortly.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/littlebigplanet-release-delayed-in-europe

[Fersis]

A week before release and metacritic score sitting at 95% average... and the release gets delayed in Europe :(



http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/littlebigplanet-release-delayed-in-europe

:( , Europe is very careful with the religion subject.
Poor sackboy.

[Wholly Schmidt]

To clarify Fersis's post, the speculation is that it's being delayed to remove music that has passages of the Quran in it, based on this closed forum thread (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:BuPMgf6T4UIJ:community.eu.playstati on.com/playstationeu/board/message%3Fboard.id%3D611%26message.id%3D8388+%22ta pha+Niang%22+quran&hl=da&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=dk) on the official forums.

[NuclearWinter]

The speculation is correct, the gamesindustry.biz article has been updated with offical word from Sony:

"During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur'an," admitted the company in a statement.

"We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologise for any offence that this may have caused."

A new release date will be announced next week.

Edit: Three Speech have an update saying that the delay is worldwide.

http://threespeech.com/blog/2008/10/littlebigplanet-scees-official-statement/

[MSUSteve]

It's a little unclear to me what they're apologizing for, unless the expressions themselves are inherently offensive in some way.

[Talisker]

It's a little unclear to me what they're apologizing for, unless the expressions themselves are inherently offensive in some way.
Apparently, putting the sacred text to music is taboo, and thus offensive to devout muslims.

[MSUSteve]

Ah, okay. Sorry for the ignorance on that subject.

[Staff Sergeant]

It was news to me too. Now the question is why quote the sacred text in the first place? There's a good chance that if you are looking through a Qur'an you know that using it will be offensive, and one of those quotes (ed: my bad it was the original thread) said the artist was a Muslim.

[Fersis]

It was news to me too. Now the question is why quote the sacred text in the first place? There's a good chance that if you are looking through a Qur'an you know that using it will be offensive, and one of those quotes (ed: my bad it was the original thread) said the artist was a Muslim.
Media Molecule licensed the song because is a great song, without knowing the lyrics ;_;

[BobJustBob]

Yet another wrong committed in the name of religion.

[Wholly Schmidt]

So is the original song containing the lyrics a similar offense that no one stepped in to address at that time, or is the situation different for that?

[Jazar]

This is the issue from MM:

We learnt yesterday that there is a lyric in one of the licensed tracks which some people may find offensive, and which slipped through the usual screening processes. Obviously MM and Sony together took this very seriously. LBP should be enjoyable by all. So within 12 hours of hearing about this issue involving a lyric (in Somalian, I believe!), we prepared an automatic day 0 patch and had a new disk image ready; however a decision was made within Sony that the right thing to do for quality and support of people with no on-line was to replace existing disks. They assure us that they are doing everything in their power to get things straightened out as fast as possible, and will announce dates soon.

This delay better not be huge. Edge just gave it a 10!

[Rock8man]

I'm a Muslim (though for the most part I'd just describe myself as agnostic, so don't take my word as gospel, since I'm not very religious), and here's my own personal take on recitation of the Quran, and it's use in other media.

From my experience, the Quran is treated with a kind of reverence and respect that you would see when you walk into a church. Nobody speaks too loud in a church, even if you're just a tourist, you're quiet and respectful, because there's this atmosphere of reverence and respect in the air. The same kind of reverence and respect is given to the recitation of the Quran, even if it's in your house.

The Quran is something that's always kept in its original Arabic form. Now any individual Quran might also have an Urdu translation, or English translation, etc., but the original Arabic text is always present. That's to prevent any kind of deviation over time. Translations might change, but the original is always kept to prevent the changing of the text over time. And so, the Arabic text is always there, and the culture I grew up in, the recitation of the Arabic text is what's treated this way. Not the translation. I could recite passages from the translation, and it's like reciting passages from the Bible, or any other text. But the original Arabic is always treated differently.

However, Arabic is not my first language. In fact, I don't even understand it, and neither do the vast majority of Muslims, I'd say. So this reverence and respect that's developed in different muslim cultures over time (whether its in India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia), might not be the same when your native language is Arabic. I could just imagine an Arabic youth who is a musical artist treating lines from the Quran like an American artist would treat lines from the Bible. He might like the lyrical quality of it, and want to put it in a song. This is just pure speculation on my part, mind you, but I've suspected that this culture of reverence and respect toward the original Arabic text among Muslims who don't speak Arabic, might not necessarily translate when the thing that you're reading is something you actually understand. It sort of loses a little of it's mystique. You might not get that feeling that you're in the middle of a big church, and that you should be quiet, you might just see words you understand and think that it's fine to put them in a song.

[Jazar]

Here's the song on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Tapha-Niang/dp/B0011ZTDII/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1224253831&sr=8-1

[Cubit]

Wow, a worldwide recall is huge. Now all those gamers who got their game from a retailer breaking street date are gonna have the rare Qur'an version of LBP!

btw, that song is pretty catchy. i may pick it up.

[Jazar]

MM is now saying that the delay may not be world wide.

[MSUSteve]

Thanks for the bit of perspective Rock8. I admit that a part of me is sort of like, "What's the big deal with putting a couple of passages to music?" but most of me realizes that that feeling is born entirely of ignorance. Just because I don't find it offensive, and wouldn't find Catholic Bible passages put to music to be offensive, it doesn't invalidate that stance with regard to the Qu'ran by Muslims.

[Cubit]

I heard that Sony Computer Entertainment has already contacted a New Mexico landfill...

[Charles]

bhahahahahaha.

Fuck religion.

PS, I sure hope the Quran doesn't have 'the' in it. Or we're in for some serious shitstorms.

(PPS, yes, I know, the Quran is only valid in its original language.)

[MSUSteve]

I think recalling all physical copies of the game world wide is a bit of an overreaction. Had I been making the decision, I would've simply shipped the game as is and patched it Day 1 while at the same time offering a mail-in recall option for those not online. That way the game could hit its original release date, while eventually making all those offended happy via patch or replacement disc. That is, the delay would only affect those who are offended and without access to the internet. Everyone else that (a) doesn't care and/or (b) has the internet would be able to get the game on the original release date.

[rrmorton]

Apparently this is one of those things up with which you do not fuck.

[Wholly Schmidt]

bhahahahahaha.

Fuck religion.

PS, I sure hope the Quran doesn't have 'the' in it. Or we're in for some serious shitstorms.

(PPS, yes, I know, the Quran is only valid in its original language.)
But Assassin's Creed told me you were tolerant Chuck!

[Staff Sergeant]

Thanks for the bit of perspective Rock8. I admit that a part of me is sort of like, "What's the big deal with putting a couple of passages to music?" but most of me realizes that that feeling is born entirely of ignorance. Just because I don't find it offensive, and wouldn't find Catholic Bible passages put to music to be offensive, it doesn't invalidate that stance with regard to the Qu'ran by Muslims.

Actually, many people make (made?) a living by putting Bible passages to music and selling them to churches in big books.

[Charles]

But Assassin's Creed told me you were tolerant Chuck!

Which bit gave that away? The knife stuck in the top of the person's head? The knife slicing people across the eyeballs? Or ramming a sword through the enemy's ballsack?

[Staff Sergeant]

Maybe the disclaimer at the start...

[wonderpug]

The Lord's Prayer in Swahili was really cool in Civilization IV.

Oh, and as for this issue I think MSUSteve had the right solution.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Maybe the disclaimer at the start...
Yeah, that's what I was referring to, but google image search failed me.

[Staff Sergeant]

http://bp0.blogger.com/_FH1HqLQsEVM/R4XzlBhdThI/AAAAAAAAAIE/GS8Ss2KNYog/s1600-h/Dsc00920.jpg

EDIT: What the fuck? http://bp0.blogger.com/_FH1HqLQsEVM/R4XzlBhdThI/AAAAAAAAAIE/GS8Ss2KNYog/s1600-h/Dsc00920.jpg

Weird: from my photobucket:

http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o324/nathanjn/Dsc00920.jpg

[RichardC]

It's the bit where the author of the planned tie-in books fumed that Ubi had asked him to write a book set during the Crusades without mentioning religion that amused me. (link) (http://news.filefront.com/steven-barnes-assassins-creed-trilogy-not-happening/)

[Zylon]

In other news, all copies of all editions of DOOM are to be retroactively patched to remove all visual, textual, and auditory references to Christianity.

[Drastic]

Maybe the disclaimer at the start...
How awesome would it be if there was a hidden easter egg and/or cheat code in Assassin's Creed that replaced that splash screen bit about interfaith diversity being leveraged for total excellence utilized in accordance with ISO 9000 six sigma execution with "bhahahahaha: fuck religion."

That's a rhetorical question. The answer is: very.

It could be the reward for collecting all the flags!

[Fugitive]

There are actually some Christian groups that object to hymns or other songs or bits of worship being set to instruments, too. But nobody really cares about them.

[Charles]

http://bp0.blogger.com/_FH1HqLQsEVM/R4XzlBhdThI/AAAAAAAAAIE/GS8Ss2KNYog/s1600-h/Dsc00920.jpg

EDIT: What the fuck? http://bp0.blogger.com/_FH1HqLQsEVM/R4XzlBhdThI/AAAAAAAAAIE/GS8Ss2KNYog/s1600-h/Dsc00920.jpg

Weird: from my photobucket:

http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o324/nathanjn/Dsc00920.jpg

There you have it. My "various religious faiths and beliefs" counts as "fuck religion."

[Cubit]

There are actually some Christian groups that object to hymns or other songs or bits of worship being set to instruments, too. But nobody really cares about them.

You are correct. Quite a few Christian colleges forbid dancing also.

[Kael]

Issue: Song in LBP includes lines for the Quran. It would offend some people.

Reaction: Delay release, reburn CD's to remove the song.

End Result: Hundreds of muslim themed levels uploaded soon after the game is released. Each tries to be more offensive than the last in some sort of misunderstood belief in free expression. None of them is any fun to play.

[Zylon]

End Result: Hundreds of muslim themed levels uploaded soon after the game is released. Each tries to be more offensive than the last in some sort of misunderstood belief in free expression. None of them is any fun to play.
Oh I dunno about the fun part. Knowing that you're helping enrage ignorant savages adds a little spice to any activity.

[Cubit]

ignorant savages

*wince*

[WarrenM]

It's cool, he doesn't mean Muslims. He means all religions.

[Zylon]

It's cool, he doesn't mean Muslims. He means all religions.
Not even that restrictive. In my mind, if someone wishes genuine mortal harm on another for no other reason than that they're somehow offended, then that person is an ignorant savage.

Cultural relativism be damned. Live and let live, jerks.

[Fozzle]

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2008/10/17/littlebigplanet-release-update/

Not as bad as it could be. (for the lazy, it's a one week bump in North America)

[Cubit]

We will begin shipping LittleBigPlanet to retail in North America the week of October 27th. Sorry for the delay, and rest assured, we are doing everything we can to get LittleBigPlanet to you as soon as possible.

Notice how it says "we will begin shipping....to retail....the week of October 27th." that doesn't sound like a specific release date to me. LBP might be hard to find at retail that week until the majority of those shipments arrive

[MSUSteve]

Actually, many people make (made?) a living by putting Bible passages to music and selling them to churches in big books.
Bah dum dum, tssh!

I've used the delay of LBP to enact what I call Project Far Cry 2. I'm going to go ahead and cancel my LBP preorder and replace it with Far Cry 2. After the beta I'm not really hyped on LBP any more, so I can wait until Gamefly can ship it or even until Christmas. My hype level for Far Cry 2, on the other hand, is insane, thus, I'm getting it next week.

[Adree]

I heard Sackboy is made of muslins.

[CustodianV131]

Weird.

You either handle all religions with care or none at all. Caring about the feelings of one religious group, but ignoring others or even insulting them in games is very bad form imo.

Maybe if other religions also get more active in killing people at random for their believe system they'll also get better treatment? Scary thought!

[MSUSteve]

You either handle all religions with care or none at all. Caring about the feelings of one religious group, but ignoring others or even insulting them in games is very bad form imo.p
What religion was ignored here?

Maybe if other religions also get more active in killing people at random for their believe system they'll also get better treatment? Scary thought!
You must know how dumb that statement is.

[Sam Jones]

Note that when the Church of England complained about the depiction of Manchester Cathedral being used as a location for gun-battles in Resistance, Sony told them to fuck off, in the nicest possible way. They did eventually apologise (half-heartedly, months later), but I don't believe they did any recalls or retroactive modifications to the game.

Sony's reaction to the LBP gaffe certainly smacks of relativism when contrasted with the Resistance row, but then Rowan Williams isn't likely to put a Fatwa on anyone.

[MSUSteve]

Note that when the Church of England complained about the depiction of Manchester Cathedral being used as a location for gun-battles in Resistance, Sony told them to fuck off, in the nicest possible way. They did eventually apologise (half-heartedly, months later), but I don't believe they did any recalls or retroactive modifications to the game.

Sony's reaction to the LBP gaffe certainly smacks of relativism when contrasted with the Resistance row, but then Rowan Williams isn't likely to put a Fatwa on anyone.
Now that's some real food for thought (except the Fatwa comment, which is silly to me). I feel like the case of Manchester Cathedral is different in that it's a famous piece of architecture and does not itself represent a fundamental tenet of Christianity wheras putting the Qu'ran to music is (apparently) a big no no to Muslims at a fundamental level. Again, my biases might be showing through because as a Catholic myself, I couldn't care less about Resistance having a battle take place in Manchester Cathedral, but I have a hard time commenting on what a gaffe singing parts of the Qu'ran is because I really don't understand the culture.

[CustodianV131]

Note that when the Church of England complained about the depiction of Manchester Cathedral being used as a location for gun-battles in Resistance, Sony told them to fuck off, in the nicest possible way. They did eventually apologise (half-heartedly, months later), but I don't believe they did any recalls or retroactive modifications to the game.

Sony's reaction to the LBP gaffe certainly smacks of relativism when contrasted with the Resistance row, but then Rowan Williams isn't likely to put a Fatwa on anyone.

That is indeed what I meant.

Originally Posted by CustodianV131
Maybe if other religions also get more active in killing people at random for their believe system they'll also get better treatment? Scary thought!

You must know how dumb that statement is.

I know how dumb it is. Still when I look around me there seems to be some merit to it, seeing how people handle Muslim-related incidents different then those related to other religions. Sony now appears to do the same. Hopefully that ain't the case and all religions will be handles with equal care in the future.

I'm not accusing them or so. Just making an observation about a practise that I personally find quite scary.

They for example allow GTA on their console without any problem or hesitation, but a few Quran references or so and the whole game gets recalled? Bit uneven if you ask me. Seems the zero day patch would have been a fine solution, although I don't even see the reason why that should be needed.

[MSUSteve]

I agree that the reaction to this whole thing seems massively overblown and I'd point to my post regarding how I would've handled it. I also agree that it seems like, for whatever reason, Sony is being extra sensitive to this. That could be a sign as to just how important this issue is to those of the Muslim faith. I really don't know. I wish I could think of a direct analog between this and a Christian example, but I can't. Like I said, I don't think the Manchester thing quite qualifies, but I also can't think of what would.

[NuclearWinter]

If anyone is interested in listening to the song in question you can hear the whole thing here:
http://www.myspace.com/toumanidiabate

It's the 3rd track, Tapha Niang. The sad thing about all this is that it's pretty awesome and really unique for a videogame soundtrack. It's a shame that gamers now wont get to experience it.

[Cubit]

Maybe the differences in the way that Sony handled both of these has more to do with the foreseeable consequences and retaliation. Maybe Sony looked at the LBP situation and thought, we don't want a lot of angry muslins on our hands. That would hurt us and our image a lot more than the Cathedral thing.

[Telefrog]

Now that's some real food for thought (except the Fatwa comment, which is silly to me). I feel like the case of Manchester Cathedral is different in that it's a famous piece of architecture and does not itself represent a fundamental tenet of Christianity wheras putting the Qu'ran to music is (apparently) a big no no to Muslims at a fundamental level. Again, my biases might be showing through because as a Catholic myself, I couldn't care less about Resistance having a battle take place in Manchester Cathedral, but I have a hard time commenting on what a gaffe singing parts of the Qu'ran is because I really don't understand the culture.

I'd say it's different for a few other reasons as well. Resistance had already shipped and sold for a bit before the Church of England raised a stink. Removing Manchester Cathedral would've been a lot harder at that point (see aforementioned Sony response vis a vis not all people are online) and it was a pretty big sequence in the game. Removing that level architecture is signifcantly harder than replacing a song.

[CustodianV131]

If anyone is interested in listening to the song in question you can hear the whole thing here:
http://www.myspace.com/toumanidiabate

It's the 3rd track, Tapha Niang. The sad thing about all this is that it's pretty awesome and really unique for a videogame soundtrack. It's a shame that gamers now wont get to experience it.

Doesn't sound disrespectful or anything on the contrary actually. Of course I don't understand the language (Which is Malian I think I red somewhere) Same by the way probably goes for 99,5% of all LBP players :)

I listened to some more tracks and I must say I prefer the ones where they don't sing, but not because of what is being sung :D Quite nice and relaxing!

Ah well so much crazy stuff in the world. Guess this won't break the camels back.

[Vincent19]

This really, really, really fucking sucks. Like really fucking bad. As someone who loves to create things, and as someone who loved the beta, I couldn't even hardly wait for the 21st. Now I have to wait for another week just because some overly sensitive people may get pissed off about song lyrics?

Look, I know it's just a game, but gaming is my hobby, and I get excited about my hobby. What Sony is doing is a little like shooting a guy in the dick. Not cool.

[Sam Jones]

I'd say it's different for a few other reasons as well. Resistance had already shipped and sold for a bit before the Church of England raised a stink. Removing Manchester Cathedral would've been a lot harder at that point (see aforementioned Sony response vis a vis not all people are online) and it was a pretty big sequence in the game. Removing that level architecture is signifcantly harder than replacing a song.

You're not wrong, but Sony's response was to brush it off as being "fantasy" initially, then apologise later. Neither of which represented any kind of expenditure of effort or money on their part. Yet, with LBP it's a worldwide recall and patches for the stragglers.

[Telefrog]

Oh, Hell. Guess what? This whole issue comes from a Gaffer (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13268092&postcount=960).


The original writer of the message that was sent to Sony / MM is called Yousef ( aka NSider ) , the whole story started 2 days ago @ True-Gaming.net forums..you can check it out if you want.

Mr.Yasser has nothing to do with that message, he was just copying it, he took the original form and added his name to it.

Oh.. I have a little surprise for you guys, Yousef is an active member at NeoGAF, and he is using the same nickname....NSider

Just to be clear: I only asked for a patch. Mm was getting the patch ready but Sony decided to just delay the thing.

I didn't ask for a delay, and I definitely do not want a delay.

The NeoGAF thread is going nuts.

[Sam Jones]

Oh, Hell. Guess what? This whole issue comes from a Gaffer (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13268092&postcount=960).The NeoGAF thread is going nuts.

Now that's funny. All that money burned because of somebody's joke email complaining that Sony has failed to sufficiently celebrate diversity.

[Hugin]

Now that's funny. All that money burned because of somebody's joke email complaining that Sony has failed to sufficiently celebrate diversity.

Is there evidence the original email was a joke?

[gordonrumble]

i guess the squeaky wheel gets the grease, as usual.

I'm actually kind of worried that this will affect the game's sales numbers. All the impulse buyers will have an extra little while to think about their purchase, and there will be a lot of confused people who don't know when the game's coming out.

[BobJustBob]

Is there evidence the original email was a joke?

Intentional or not, it was a joke.

[Kael]

Amazon has moved it to November 3rd. That puts it coming out on the same day as Gears of War 2 and Resistance 2.

Meaning that if they were hoping to tempt 360 owners into buying a PS3 to play LBP, they will now go to the store to find Gears of War 2 sitting there for them.

[Angrycoder]

I am sure Sony isn't just considering the potential backlash from Muslims, but also the backlash from ignorant people all over the world if they knew the game their kid was playing had anything related to the Qur'an in it.

I could just see the headlines all over Fox news. Little Big Planet, terrorist training simulator, film at 11.

That is a much larger demographic to alienate rather than Muslims, at least in the US.

[Jazar]

newegg shipped my LBP order yesterday. Too bad I'm out of town all next week. :/

[Reed]

I could just see the headlines all over Fox news. Little Big Planet, terrorist training simulator, film at 11.

That is a much larger demographic to alienate rather than Muslims, at least in the US.
Well, it'll alienate some chimps who are probably already scared of the medium, and interest a whole other group due to the added publicity and "controversy".

These kind of requests or demands from any group should be completely ignored. No one has the right to never be offended.

[Kael]

Recalled copies of Little Big Planet are going for big money on eBay.

[Staff Sergeant]

Fersis (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=35343) Banned
(10-17-2008, 08:11 PM)
Reply (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13268250&noquote=1) | Quote (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13268250)

Really?

[dogbert]

Fersis (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=35343) Banned
(10-17-2008, 08:11 PM)
Reply (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13268250&noquote=1) | Quote (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13268250)

Really?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13268504&postcount=1078

[NuclearWinter]

My US import copy of the Quran Edition LBP should be arriving tomorrow or Tuesday.

[Staff Sergeant]

Is that what he got b& for?

EDIT: My original post about Fersis was questioning whether that was the same person as Fersis (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/member.php?u=17106) here, not that he got banned for the post in the LBP NeoGaf thread.

[zengonzo]

http://www.edge-online.com/features/muslim-group-condemns-lbp-%E2%80%9Ccensorship%E2%80%9D

Last week, Sony delayed one of the biggest games of the year when it recalled Media Molecule-developed LittleBigPlanet on fear that in-game music that contained words from the Koran would incite anger among Muslim gamers.

But M. Zuhdi Jasser, M.D., president of the non-profit American Islamic Forum for Democracy told Edge on Monday, “Muslims cannot benefit from freedom of expression and religion and then turn around and ask that anytime their sensibilities are offended that the freedom of others be restricted.

“The free market allows for expression of disfavor by simply not purchasing a game that may be offensive.”

Jasser, who has also appeared on CNN, in the Washington Times and National Review, said that not only does the First Amendment support freedom of expression, but Mohammed also “defended the rights of his enemies to critique him in any way even if it was offensive to his own Islamic sensibilities or respect for Koranic scripture.”

[Chris Nahr]

Jasser doesn't really make a lot of sense here. He himself says that he considers including Koran verses in entertainment products offensive, and Sony is obviously not attempting to make a political statement but merely to entertain... so surely, according to Jasser, Muslims would be correct to demand the removal of these verses and Sony would be correct to accede to these demands?

[Brad Grenz]

It's hard to fault Sony for what may be an overreaction here. The last thing they need is an actual Fatwa levied against their biggest release of the fall. This is supposed to be a game-changing product with universal appeal. To err on the side of caution is understandable. With the media climate as it is, it would have been really easy for someone to kick up a shitstorm. I mean, the whole ordeal was started by like one guy who wrote an email to Sony and CC'd Kotaku.

[Enduro_Man]

Jasser doesn't really make a lot of sense here. He himself says that he considers including Koran verses in entertainment products offensive, and Sony is obviously not attempting to make a political statement but merely to entertain... so surely, according to Jasser, Muslims would be correct to demand the removal of these verses and Sony would be correct to accede to these demands?
I'm just not seeing the inconsistency you refer to. Jasser is pretty clear in suggesting that that the correct response of the offended party is to not buy the game. How do you read that demanding the offending item's removal is consistent with his argument?

Also, whether it be to entertain or comment, why should the developer's intent matter?