Dragon Age Countdown...

[Squee]

At least it wasn't the Lost Mysteries of the Forgotten Ancients' Sunken Shadow-Tomb. Have to give them credit for that.

[MattKeil]

Preordered the PC collector's the other day. I just hope the bonus Mass Effect 2 item works in the 360 version of ME2.

[Equisilus]

I definitely approve of the Tactics screen if it works similar to the Gambits of FFXII. Perhaps the AI control of the party members won't be so bad after all and it'll cut down on party management in combat. In past games, I've always had to take control of party members (if I could) because they were so god-awful stupid.

[Gendal]

I definitely approve of the Tactics screen if it works similar to the Gambits of FFXII. Perhaps the AI control of the party members won't be so bad after all and it'll cut down on party management in combat. In past games, I've always had to take control of party members (if I could) because they were so god-awful stupid.
I understand a lot of people don't like this, but the programmer in me just adores it. I loved the gambit system in FFXII too.

[Lizard_King]

Gambit-like systems would be great.

I'm having a lot of trouble going back to games like Neverwinter and Wizardry for a reason I never expected: front-loaded multiple character generation bores the shit out of me. If it hadn't been for fast-forward mods and the fact that initial choices were relatively easy to optimize in advance, even Fallout 3 would have had a similar fate on a recent PC replay. On the other hand, I still like micromanaging characters once in game. I just can't get over that initial speedbump for some reason.


What can I say, some of us like context and motivation in our stories!

On the Jade Empire thing, I didn't really mean that it genuinely offended me, but the way it took elements directly from Chinese culture and then created an entirely new 'ching-chong' language that goes to the extent of creating fake Chinese characters was definitely offensively stupid, even if they mitigated it somewhat with rocket-launching biplanes. Really, though, why not just use Chinese? It makes Heavenly Sword look like Spring in a Small Town.

That's a pretty good point. You'd think they could have hired an actual Chinese person to flesh out details like the language. I didn't even remember that part, I was just really irritated at having to encounter the same boring Dark/Light cycle from KOTOR except run through a fortune cookie filter.

[sam and the firefly]

If I remember rightly, they went one step further and hired an actual linguist to 'create' the language! It just seemed to me like they were trying incredibly hard to co-opt Chinese mythology and culture directly while still playing the 'unique setting' card. I was like, I get the influences, just call it what it is.

I mostly liked the game itself, though.

[frank austin]

I definitely approve of the Tactics screen if it works similar to the Gambits of FFXII. Perhaps the AI control of the party members won't be so bad after all and it'll cut down on party management in combat. In past games, I've always had to take control of party members (if I could) because they were so god-awful stupid.

I wouldn't get your hopes up too high on this one, Bioware has had these systems in place before and they never worked all that well. The good thing is that mods usually come along that make the AI commands much, much better.

[Equisilus]

I wouldn't get your hopes up too high on this one, Bioware has had these systems in place before and they never worked all that well. The good thing is that mods usually come along that make the AI commands much, much better.

Bio's previous attempts at AI tweaking using scripts looked quite different than what they are doing here, though. This looks more of a state:command gambit system than an overall general behaviour choice for companions. Of course, I'll have to wait until I see how it works but I would expect that it'd be an improvement over each and every game before.

[Robert Sharp]

Sorry, but despite the rather rampant desire to believe that the PC version of Dragon Age: Origins is complete and in a box somewhere, we are still working on the PC version.

Well, at least that is what I am doing right now.

Please stop posting and get back to work. I don't care if it's a weekend or your day off or after hours or whatever. Please finish game. Thanks!

[ydejin]

If I remember rightly, they went one step further and hired an actual linguist to 'create' the language! It just seemed to me like they were trying incredibly hard to co-opt Chinese mythology and culture directly while still playing the 'unique setting' card. I was like, I get the influences, just call it what it is.
I think they made the right decision on this. If they had used actual Chinese they would have taken grief for any changes they made to the original mythology. As it is they were able to make clear that they were influenced by Chinese mythology without being completely tied to it.

[unbongwah]

On the Jade Empire thing, I didn't really mean that it genuinely offended me, but the way it took elements directly from Chinese culture and then created an entirely new 'ching-chong' language that goes to the extent of creating fake Chinese characters was definitely offensively stupid, even if they mitigated it somewhat with rocket-launching biplanes. Really, though, why not just use Chinese?
Uhh, because it's not set in China? It's a fictional setting which borrows liberally from Asian culture, myth, and pop art, but it's not Asia. Using Chinese or any other real-world Asian language would have been just as arbitrary as using English (which was obviously used because that's the target market). Should white people be offended that Tolkien invented Elvish and other languages rather than using actual languages, despite Middle-Earth "obviously" being based on Europe and the Near East?

If it helps, Bioware actually hired a linguist to invent Tho Fan (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/arts/19lang.html); they didn't just throw in a bunch of random "ching-chong" sounds and call it a day. [Unlike, say, KOTOR, where it's clear they're just replaying the same sound clips and pretending it's an alien language.]

[Miramon]

Should white people be offended that Tolkien invented Elvish and other languages rather than using actual languages, despite Middle-Earth "obviously" being based on Europe and the Near East?

Tolkien used actual languages. He was a philologist, after all. He did mix in his own creative elements, of course, especially for the Dwarves, but his stuff is mostly derived from real European languages. In particular, I think most if not all the character names in LOTR are related to fictional and historical names, with Gandalf and the Dwarves coming from the eddas, for example.

But yeah, to the real point, I see no reason to take offense at an invented language in a game set in quasi-Asia any more than in quasi-Europe. But perhaps it would have been cheaper just to use Mandarin, and that wouldn't have offended anyone either.

[Kael]

Tolkien used actual languages. He was a philologist, after all. He did mix in his own creative elements, of course, especially for the Dwarves, but his stuff is mostly derived from real European languages. In particular, I think most if not all the character names in LOTR are related to fictional and historical names, with Gandalf and the Dwarves coming from the eddas, for example.

But yeah, to the real point, I see no reason to take offense at an invented language in a game set in quasi-Asia any more than in quasi-Europe. But perhaps it would have been cheaper just to use Mandarin, and that wouldn't have offended anyone either.

The languages Tolkien created weren't "real languages with his own creative elements mixed in". They were full, deep new languages.

Yes he did pull a lot of words from old languages. Even in taking lost words (where the meaning was unknown) and creating a meaning for it. But its a disservice to Tolkien to say that he didn't invent his elven languages.

[sam and the firefly]

Uhh, because it's not set in China? It's a fictional setting which borrows liberally from Asian culture, myth, and pop art, but it's not Asia. Using Chinese or any other real-world Asian language would have been just as arbitrary as using English (which was obviously used because that's the target market). Should white people be offended that Tolkien invented Elvish and other languages rather than using actual languages, despite Middle-Earth "obviously" being based on Europe and the Near East?

If it helps, Bioware actually hired a linguist to invent Tho Fan (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/arts/19lang.html); they didn't just throw in a bunch of random "ching-chong" sounds and call it a day. [Unlike, say, KOTOR, where it's clear they're just replaying the same sound clips and pretending it's an alien language.]

You didn't read my posts. I'm fully aware that the game isn't technically set in Ancient China, and I also mentioned the linguist thing before. I think both things are kind of stupid in tandem. What I am saying is that, instead of going out of their way to pretend they'd come up with this whole new world, they should've recognised that the setting was pretty much entirely based on Chinese mythology anyway and just gone with it - it's not like it's the most common setting for games! I think it would've been a much more credible choice, and the game would still have stood out. Alternatively, create a more original setting, and by all means stick a new language into it - then the linguist you hire won't be beholden to the Mongolian or Chinese-sounding phonetics.

I have a degree in linguistics, and I found the article you linked really interesting! The guy clearly had a lot of fun with it, as I would have. I am totally not suggesting that BioWare did what they did whith anything other than the best of intentions, but at the end of the day the effect of creating a facsimile of an Asian language was, intentional or not, stereotypically crass given the game's setting (to me, at least). It's kind of naive to create a written script that looks exactly like Chinese except for the fact that the characters don't actually exist.

But, like I said, I still liked the game. It's kind of telling that I can write all the above and still say that it had my favourite setting of any BioWare game, even if it doesn't quite hang together.

[Knickerbocker]

Why is creating a logographic system any more or less insulting than creating a syllabary or an alphabetic system? If you're creating logograms, they're going to necessarily be linear and complicated (to have a lot of them and to make allowances for ancient media) or else they're going to be pictographs. Logograms are easier and more flexible than pictographs.

Either way, it's no worse than whipping up an alphabet or syllabary out of whole cloth. It's just that we associate logograms with China, and therefore using them must be somehow culturally insensitive. But I'll wager that if a Japanese or Chinese developer made up an alphabetic system, but just with letters that aren't real, for their European-analogue nation, no one would be offended.

[Jakub]

So Tolkien was insulting medieval England when he created Middle Earth?

[Rock8man]

Correct, single-player only.

Thanks. That's what I thought. But it just suddenly occurred to me that day when I asked the question that I'd been thinking of Dragon Age in the same way as I'd thought of KOTOR, Mass Effect, Jade Empire. But what we'd seen of Dragon Age was more analogous to NWN, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and those games allowed you to do the campaign in multiplayer. My friend was always trying to convince me to play through Baldur's Gate 2 with him in multiplayer after we finished Icewind Dale together. So I suddenly thought: Hey wait! Maybe Dragon Age has Co-op multiplayer through the campaign too! But sadly, that's not the case. Ah well, just a passing thought.

[unbongwah]

What I am saying is that, instead of going out of their way to pretend they'd come up with this whole new world, they should've recognised that the setting was pretty much entirely based on Chinese mythology anyway and just gone with it - it's not like it's the most common setting for games! I think it would've been a much more credible choice, and the game would still have stood out. Alternatively, create a more original setting, and by all means stick a new language into it - then the linguist you hire won't be beholden to the Mongolian or Chinese-sounding phonetics.
I can see what you're getting at, but it sounds like you're criticizing JE for being too derivative ("Pffft! You guys totally just ripped off ancient China!") and not derivative enough (" - so you should've just stuck with Chinese and called it a day."), which is an odd complaint IMHO. Exactly how much effort did they need to put into their faux-China until it was not-Chinese enough to merit its own faux language?

That's largely rhetorical: if it didn't interfere with enjoying the game, that's all that really matters. But basically I don't want to do anything which discourages Bioware from pursuing interesting new settings. :-) Mass Effect was fun and Dragon Age looks like it will be too, but neither setting has impressed me with their originality.

[ydejin]

I'm not sure if the Dragon Age vids by EA Germany have been posted in this thread. Interesting stuff even if you don't speak German.

1 - Story and Origins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OY8q5tUkx0&feature=channel)
2 - Combat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DvYHh07Beg&feature=channel)
3 - Questlog, Codex, Map (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DvYHh07Beg&feature=channel)

Other sites might have them in better quality than YouTube. EA made them available in 720p.
Someone took the time to post them with English translations!

1 - Story and Origins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLqWZQ2WlQU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.penny-arcade.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D91726%26page%3D4 1&feature=player_embedded)
2 - Combat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdPFwfvCpD4&feature=related)

Doesn't look like the third one is translated yet.

[Squee]

“There can be a pair of nugs on the bed. Nugs would be these little subterranean bunny pigs you find down in the dwarven cavern. If you click on them, it says, like, ‘the nugs refuse to look you in the eye.’ Or, there’s a transvestite dwarf with, like, lipstick and stuff. He sort of deadpans and he’s like, ‘Yes, the earth moved. It was wonderful.’ So there’s no bestiality. I guess somebody could suggest that because they put animals in my room that it was suggested that bestiality could occur. It’s just played for humor. That’s all,” he says (http://www.destructoid.com/dragon-age-writer-explains-esrb-brothel-listing-144306.phtml)
Damn it. I want to go back to, like, the old shit and stuff. Feeling cranky.

Thanks for those links Ydejin. Apparently I'm a closet German, since those movies, even with subtitles, make me more interested than any of the other previews or trailers I've seen. Kinda wish EA would market the game that way towards us as well instead of dwarf transvestites and the new shit.

[frank austin]

"Nugs"? Really?

[Vesper]

Despite all the bad marketing, playing this at GenCon has me counting the days for its release. I just need to figure out where to pre-order from. Unfortunately, Amazon doesn't have 'release date shipping' listed as of now. I may have to stoop to using Gamestop.

[Eightball]

Despite all the bad marketing, playing this at GenCon has me counting the days for its release. I just need to figure out where to pre-order from. Unfortunately, Amazon doesn't have 'release date shipping' listed as of now. I may have to stoop to using Gamestop.

I can't wait for it, either. It may be generic fantasy. The marketing campaign may have been okay'd by a mental midget.

It's still Bioware, and their stuff is like crack to me.

[John Reynolds]

Despite all the bad marketing, playing this at GenCon has me counting the days for its release. I just need to figure out where to pre-order from. Unfortunately, Amazon doesn't have 'release date shipping' listed as of now. I may have to stoop to using Gamestop.

Like I said upstream, EA has it on their store with free shipping.

[Vesper]

Like I said upstream, EA has it on their store with free shipping.
This makes me remember the release of BG1 and wondering if Digital River would ship out copies before Gamestop...

[Lizard_King]

So Tolkien was insulting medieval England when he created Middle Earth?

Tolkien was insulting the world when he came up with Middle Earth. Unfortunately, his low regard for it was clearly merited.

[Sarkus]

This makes me remember the release of BG1 and wondering if Digital River would ship out copies before Gamestop...

As long as they don't delay it to a Christmas Eve release like that was . . . which happened to be a rare snow day in Seattle. Worst. Christmas. Ever.

:-)

[Brad Grenz]

Tolkien was insulting the world when he came up with Middle Earth. Unfortunately, his low regard for it was clearly merited.

We'd be hearing about it now, but medieval Europe still doesn't have internet access. I mean, what are they waiting for?

[ydejin]

Tolkien was insulting the world when he came up with Middle Earth. Unfortunately, his low regard for it was clearly merited.

He did write it after coming back from World War I where he served in the trenches and lost some of his closest friends. So you may be on to something.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Maybe it's only a cosmetic similarity, but boy do I get a shades of BG2 feeling when I see those screenshots.

[Telefrog]

A few of the voice actor details were announced by EA (http://news.ea.com/portal/site/ea/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090827005212&newsLang=en):

Tim Curry
Kate Mulgrew
Tim Russ
Claudia Black
Steve Valentine

Mmmm. Based on Tim Curry's previous work in video games, I guess we can expect some healthy dollops of cheese.

[Desslock]

Maybe it's only a cosmetic similarity, but boy do I get a shades of BG2 feeling when I see those screenshots.

It's not cosmetic.

[Rock8man]

I haven't been following the news for this game very closely. Has there been any exposure to the Dragon Age editor? Is it more analogous to NWN, where it was easy enough to build your own adventure that we got a ton of user made content, or is it more like NWN2, which I understand was much harder to create custom adventures for? Has anyone here been exposed to it?

[Telefrog]

The editor's ease of use is a huge question in my mind. I'd love to know the answer before I make a decsion on whether to get this for the PC or the console.

[unbongwah]

I think the latest issue of PC Gamer has a preview of the DA editor. Unfortunately, I haven't read it and don't have it handy, so I can't comment on it.

[roguefrog]

You want Dragon Age for PC. Editor or not. The game was designed for the PC as the lead platform...and I keep hearing how the console version has been changed significantly to meet the expectations of that platform. From what I understand the PC version plays like BG where you control an entire group. It's far more tactical vs controlling a single guy over-the-shoulder on the console version.

[Rock8man]

You want Dragon Age for PC. Editor or not. The game was designed for the PC as the lead platform...and I keep hearing how the console version has been changed significantly to meet the expectations of that platform. From what I understand the PC version plays like BG where you control an entire group. It's far more tactical vs controlling a single guy over-the-shoulder on the console version.

The only problem with that theory for me is that I hated controlling an entire party in BG. It was a pain in the ass. On the other hand, controlling an entire party in KoTOR was cake. You just pause, give orders with your main guy and put stuff in the queue of orders, then soul switch to different party members and do the same thing for them. I found that to be much more convenient and user-friendly than the BG method of clicking on a person, giving orders, clicking on someone else, giving orders. Intellectually I know that the two methods are equivalent, but something about the KoTOR method just made it so much easier.

In NWN2 I tried to make the camera and controls as much like KoTOR as possible, but it was still a little bit of a pain with the keyboard and mouse controls, the way they did it in NWN2.

In Icewind Dale, I bypassed the problem entirely by playing through the whole game in multiplayer on LAN with my friends, with each of us three players controlling only one character each. That way party controllers didn't have to be messed with.

So yeah, I'm yet to see an example of a "designed for PC" method of party control that I liked better than KoTOR for the Xbox.

[Boinkology]

The only problem with that theory for me is that I hated controlling an entire party in BG. It was a pain in the ass. On the other hand, controlling an entire party in KoTOR was cake. You just pause, give orders with your main guy and put stuff in the queue of orders, then soul switch to different party members and do the same thing for them. I found that to be much more convenient and user-friendly than the BG method of clicking on a person, giving orders, clicking on someone else, giving orders. Intellectually I know that the two methods are equivalent, but something about the KoTOR method just made it so much easier.


My understanding is that you can still play the KoTOR way on PC too, but you can't play BG2 style on the console. The tactics (Gambit style) AI system is in both versions of the game. So you could just soul switch as you pleased in behind the shoulder view on the PC version or play it as a top down BG2 style game complete with pausing every few seconds.

[Kunikos]

Are there any screenshots of the inventory / paper-doll or what different equipment looks like?

[Syzygy]

As long as they don't delay it to a Christmas Eve release like that was . . . which happened to be a rare snow day in Seattle. Worst. Christmas. Ever.

:-)
Heh, I was impacted by that, too, for BG1. But the retailer ended up not getting any copies before I flew back home to Japan, so it was even worse.

[Mysterio]

Are there any screenshots of the inventory / paper-doll or what different equipment looks like?

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTHPRkkuTLw&feature=related) shows the UI and HUD in action, but the audio's in German.

[Desslock]

I haven't been following the news for this game very closely. Has there been any exposure to the Dragon Age editor? Is it more analogous to NWN, where it was easy enough to build your own adventure that we got a ton of user made content, or is it more like NWN2, which I understand was much harder to create custom adventures for? Has anyone here been exposed to it?

I've played with it, and the community members who have access to it seem to really like its power and versatility --- but it's not a tile-based game, like NWN, so the editor definitely has a learning curve to it. I hadn't previously used that sort of editor, and I found it pretty difficult to learn, largely because you can do a hell of a lot with it (for instance, you can basically make cinematics rivaling those THE MOVIES, with individually placed cameras, VO, animations, etc.) - and there's a lot of community tools, a wiki, and Bioware was working on additional tutorials, etc. That said, everyone I spoke to thought it was a huge improvement over NWN2's editor, mainly because it wasn't needlessly cumbersome and unintuitive.

I think this is one instance where the PC-version is clearly superior -- in the console versions you lose the top-down, BG-style perspective, which should be a show-stopper for most fans of those games. And the PC version obviously looks better as well, plus the editor, etc. It was designed for years as a PC game - the console versions are really after-the-fact ports.

[Andrew Mallon]

I think this is one instance where the PC-version is clearly superior -- in the console versions you lose the top-down, BG-style perspective, which should be a show-stopper for most fans of those games. And the PC version obviously looks better as well, plus the editor, etc. It was designed for years as a PC game - the console versions are really after-the-fact ports.

Desslock, have you played the console versions at all? I'm curious because, while I'm sure the PC version will be the best choice, my options are console version or nothing. Does the console version have so many compromises that it isn't worth playing or is it good enough that I'll still have a decent, though inferior, experience?

[Kunikos]

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTHPRkkuTLw&feature=related) shows the UI and HUD in action, but the audio's in German.

Thanks! Looks decent to me, like an improved version of Oblivion's inventory (categories for each item list with little icons to differentiate) but with the slots/paperdoll screen beside it ala Baldur's Gate. The UI for the world map screen is only shown for a couple of seconds but it seems interesting with highlighted icons for places to visit, I'm assuming which corresponds to quest step related stuff.

[Desslock]

Desslock, have you played the console versions at all? I'm curious because, while I'm sure the PC version will be the best choice, my options are console version or nothing. Does the console version have so many compromises that it isn't worth playing or is it good enough that I'll still have a decent, though inferior, experience?

I haven't played them, but they contain identical content, etc. -- the only substantive difference I'm aware of is that you're stuck with a more limited camera perspective in the console versions - there may be a few other UI tweaks.

It's a significant enough shortcoming that I'd definitely recommend the PC version over the console ones, but the top-down, higher perspective is very important to me since I like micromanaging the party-based combat. I'd suggest waiting for the console demo versions or video reviews and using them to inform your decision. Sorry that I don't have any hands-on experience with the console versions to offer direct perspective.

[Equis]

Introducing Leliana (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/leliana-cinematic-dragon-age/55762)

It saddens me that when Bioware announced that Dragon Age is their chance to really let their imagination loose in a fantasy setting, to boldly change the storytelling style in your proto-typical medieval world; that they seem to resort to writing like 12 year olds.

Also, the voice-acting is terrible. Did all the good ones go to work on SWTOR. Are there good ones on SWTOR?

[Angie Gallant]

Ugh. I go from excited by what people who have played the game say about the gameplay and then I watch a turd like that.

[Adree]

Introducing Leliana (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/leliana-cinematic-dragon-age/55762)

http://i31.tinypic.com/5meqo3.gif

[Bahimiron]

Everything about that video, from the creepy Uncanny Canyon face to the tone-deaf voice acting to the decision to include bits from the sex scene, is just one giant misstep.

[Joe M.]

I still think they're trolling! That was pretty awful.

[Squee]

I still think they're trolling! That was pretty awful.
I'm going to open the game's box on release day and a picture of a lolcat is going to fall out, isn't it?

im in ur rpg makin the new shit

[Brad Grenz]

Maybe the whole game is supposed to ba a parody?

[kerzain]

I still think they're trolling! That was pretty awful.
Hahaha, this was my first thought too. It is so horribly bad it's funny.

Here's to hoping this is like that scene in the book Cheaper by the Dozen when the dad brings the family to a slummy condemned building and tries to tell them it's their new home, only to bring them to the real house after much wailing and crying.

[TurinTur]

Maybe the whole game is supposed to ba a parody?

This. This has to be. If you think carefully enough, this has to be a parody of the fantasy rpg, with all the tropes of an evil army of "Darkspawn" (lol) that were a danger hundreds of year ago and now return to try to destroy the world, the hero being part of a exclusive group of Wardens that watches against the evil and with the mission of saving the world, the elves and dwarves, the blood and sex, the fireball-launching wizards, the king giving the long 'epic' spiel just before the big battle against the enemy, etc.

[TheWombat]

Well, at least we have a perfectly applicable term for this: sophomoric.

[Brad Grenz]

Even if it's not intentional, it may enhance enjoyment for us to think of it so. Like how Transformers (Michael Bay movie) is better if you think of the Autobots as the Cybertonian equivalent of Gomer Pile, and not as an elite military unit.

[belgerog]

Does this Leliana video mean the Marylin Manson videos weren't just a bad marketing scheme to attract gamers of another nature :( ?

Did they really have to give her a battle skirt?

[Rob_Merritt]

Can anyone show me anything good about this game? Anyone?

[aphoristic gamer]

Eh, pandering to the male teenage console audience that drinks Mountain Dew and browses Gametrailers.

[TheWombat]

Eh, pandering to the male teenage console audience that drinks Mountain Dew and browses Gametrailers.

This, in and of itself, isn't a heinous crime. What's a crime is the abysmally low quality of the pandering. I mean, this trailer is simply bad, in oh so many ways. It's not just a matter of perhaps cynical pandering, it's inept pandering.

[Tom Ohle]

We announced that game... over 5 years ago. And it had already been in development for some time. Good to see it's actually coming out. I think.

[Equisilus]

Can anyone show me anything good about this game? Anyone?

I love that they are finally using gold, silver, copper coins. It's been a request of mine since back when they first announced they were working on a new RPG.

I think DA:O is going to be one of those games where there's no single element (or even a collection of a few) that I can look at and say "wow, that's going to be great." It's one of those times when I trust (hope) the whole package is going to be greater than the sum of its parts. I'll finally be able to set aside marketing and get at its guts to see if it delivers when it's released. Until then it's wait and see how it all comes together.

[Adam Sensoy]

Uhh....what in the world is going on with this game? Bad textures, low poly character models, terrible voice acting, silly action, awful dialog. Like, for reals, what the hell?

[Balasarius]

Gentlemen, this is the new shit.

[Rock8man]

Gentlemen, this is the new shit.

I know that this will eventually get old, but 'this is the new shit' jokes still make me laugh every time.

[Kalle]

Did they really have to give her a battle skirt?

Don't diss the battle skirt.

http://www.legioxi.ch/bilder/bi_uu/b_uukoerp12.jpg

[Adam Sensoy]

I know that this will eventually get old, but 'this is the new shit' jokes still make me laugh every time.

Did you read the article on Kotaku (I think) where Bioware defended the Marilyn Manson stuff as "throwing out the conventions of the RPG genre and showing how dark and gritty the game will be..." Good lord, what a bunch of crap...but it still makes me laugh hearing "The New Shit" jokes.

[aphoristic gamer]

Uhh....what in the world is going on with this game? Bad textures, low poly character models, terrible voice acting, silly action, awful dialog. Like, for reals, what the hell?

The world will probably be far larger than Mass Effect, they were hinting at a 100+ hours lenght. While that's probably exaggerated a bit, it's safe to assume that because of the far bigger scope the graphics won't be as polished.

[Cubit]

I'm thinking the good of Mass Effect 2 will balance out the shit (not new, just shit) that is Dragon Age. I hope the final game proves me wrong.

p.s. That Leliana trailer didn't look, or sound, much better than stuff seen in Neverwinter Nights 2.

[Matt Perkins]

I think DA:O is going to be one of those games where there's no single element (or even a collection of a few) that I can look at and say "wow, that's going to be great." It's one of those times when I trust (hope) the whole package is going to be greater than the sum of its parts. I'll finally be able to set aside marketing and get at its guts to see if it delivers when it's released. Until then it's wait and see how it all comes together.
QFT45

[awdougherty]

Bad textures, low poly character models, terrible voice acting, silly action, awful dialog. Like, for reals, what the hell?

This, Dragon Age looks sort of like NWN2 does to me. And it seems like Bioware has fallen into the "nerds mistake x,y, and z for cool and gritty... news at 11" style of marketing. They think they are making something dark and gritty, but when they try to convey that, it becomes a joke. Sort of like Emo-Persia. My fear is that it's not just the marketing, but the whole game that is Emo-Persia.

[Rock8man]

Yeah, that video reminded me of NWN2 too. Except NWN2 had better voice acting.

[JackBurton]

For some reason, since seeing the game a NY Comic Con and after the delay, I have gone from very excited about DA to somewhat meh about it.

[ydejin]

Did you read the article on Kotaku (I think) where Bioware defended the Marilyn Manson stuff as "throwing out the conventions of the RPG genre and showing how dark and gritty the game will be..." Good lord, what a bunch of crap...but it still makes me laugh hearing "The New Shit" jokes.
So is this what the in game music is really like, or is this just for their "dark and gritty" ad campaign. Please tell me this is just for the ad campaign.

[Tyrion]

The preview here, dealing with gameplay mechanics, is pretty promising and gives me a bit of hope for the game:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/previews/dragonageorigins3-1.php

The basic system resembles D&D in many ways, except with the crunk and sacred cows possibly stripped away, simplified, or rationalized.

One potentially good feature is that health/stamina/mana will automatically regenerate after battle. If I restrain my natural hatred for the mindless, automatic usage of regenerating health in lots of other games, the feature makes a lot of sense. The healing-in-between-battles resource management metagame was never particularly compelling, and Dragon Age's proposed replacement--an injury system that affects characters that are incapacitated during battle with conditions like a cracked skull or broken bone--seems pretty refreshing.

[Sarkus]

I don't understand some of the hate here. It's almost like some of you are getting some perverse pleasure in jumping on the "hate" bandwagon. You completely ignore that many people who've seen the actual game (and not just a handful of trailers) keep praising it. And all this talk here about how it looks, when RPG fans are supposed to be less concerned about graphics then they are about story.

This might be a dud and it certainly continues to be marketed badly (from our perspective) but there are many positive signs and it's not like there are very many other AAA RPG's out there.

[extarbags]

This is back to wait and see status for me. What are the many positive signs, Sarkus? I haven't seen or heard anything that really sets it apart in a good way.

[Sarkus]

What are the many positive signs, Sarkus? I haven't seen or heard anything that really sets it apart in a good way.

The third person tactical perspective doesn't set it apart? If not, I must have missed some recent RPGs. Tyrion's post also points out stuff about the game mechanics that are more interesting than what we see nowdays in games like Fallout 3, for example. Plus, Desslock has posted several times in very positive ways about what he has seen.

Again, this continues to be marketed towards non-RPG fans because Bioware/EA doesn't think the game will sell well enough if it's just aimed at hard core fans of the genre. That doesn't mean it's not a game for the hard core fans.

[idrisz]

KOTOR was 3rd person...

[Boinkology]

Again, this continues to be marketed towards non-RPG fans because Bioware/EA doesn't think the game will sell well enough if it's just aimed at hard core fans of the genre. That doesn't mean it's not a game for the hard core fans.

Won't sell well enough if aimed at the hard core fans, or won't sell enough units overall to cover the immense cost of a game that has been over 5 years in development?

[Stridergg]

I don't understand some of the hate here. It's almost like some of you are getting some perverse pleasure in jumping on the "hate" bandwagon. You completely ignore that many people who've seen the actual game (and not just a handful of trailers) keep praising it.

This.

A bad trailer comes out - everyone is "the game is going to be a dud". A good trailer comes out or Desslock says "I played it, it's going to be a great RPG" - everyone is "OMG I can't wait to buy it". ADD much? Or is it different people are triggered to post in different situations?

[Adam Sensoy]

So is this what the in game music is really like, or is this just for their "dark and gritty" ad campaign. Please tell me this is just for the ad campaign.

My understanding is that the New Shit crap is just for the ad campaign and they are doing the traditional 'epic score' type of music for the game...but I could easily be wrong and we are going to get some 80's heavy metal riffs in there.

[Sarkus]

KOTOR was 3rd person...

It wasn't 3rd person tactical, which is what I said. That you can play Dragon Age in a perspective similar to the Baldur's Gate games (on the PC anyway) puts it in a unique position. Neverwinter Nights 2's sort-of offering of that was the last time we've seen that I can recall, and that game came out 3 years ago.

[Spoit]

KOTOR was 3rd person...
It was also 6 years ago. Count me as another one who is completely mystified by the hate bandwagon everyone's jumping on. The actual gameplay was great for the one hour I demoed at comic-con

[idrisz]

Kotor 2 was also in 3rd person.

witcher was also in 3rd person.

I'm just confuse when you said


The third person tactical perspective doesn't set it apart?

what?

[Shimarenda]

I don't understand some of the hate here. It's almost like some of you are getting some perverse pleasure in jumping on the "hate" bandwagon. You completely ignore that many people who've seen the actual game (and not just a handful of trailers) keep praising it. And all this talk here about how it looks, when RPG fans are supposed to be less concerned about graphics then they are about story.

This might be a dud and it certainly continues to be marketed badly (from our perspective) but there are many positive signs and it's not like there are very many other AAA RPG's out there.
I don't think it is unreasonable to reach a conclusion about the game based on the what the company has decided to show us and the manner in which they have elected to show it. And that the game is for me but Bioware just isn't trying to sell it to me is not an argument that gives me hope.

[Bahimiron]

A bad trailer comes out - everyone is "the game is going to be a dud".

In your country does 'A' mean 'a series of' and do they not have plurals when referring to game trailers?

[Eightball]

People with actual gameplay experience have universally loved the game. Though I completely agree the trailers have been ridiculous, all it makes me think is that Bioware needs to fire the head of marketing for Dragon Age and whatever advertising consultants they are using.

[Adree]

Plus, Desslock has posted several times in very positive ways about what he has seen.


http://i32.tinypic.com/2wohj5y.jpg

[Adam Sensoy]

http://i32.tinypic.com/2wohj5y.jpg

Forehand winner!

[Rock8man]

Is that Desslock's Hellgate London review score? Sometimes Adree's images are hard to interpret.

[rei]

Lipsync, facial animation, gesturing/acting are all a step back from Mass Effect. I'm not impressed.

[Angie Gallant]

Yeah, what I am getting at is that I think I might enjoy the gameplay, but I'm going to be rolling my eyes at everything else (dialog, voice acting, art, "grittiness") so hard that it'll be hard to get past it. Hurf durf crazy hot murder chick in an armor skirt is so dumb it hurts me in my thinky place.

[Murbella]

Doesn't pretty much every rpg have platemail bikinis though?

[Joe M.]

I don't really expect Mass Effect level animation and synchronization. That's a really high bar that I don't think anyone except ME has achieved... on the other hand, what I've seen of DA:O is so bad I can't believe these trailers are serious. Because if they are -- well, how depressing.

[Cubit]

I don't really expect Mass Effect level animation and synchronization. That's a really high bar that I don't think anyone except ME has achieved... on the other hand, what I've seen of DA:O is so bad I can't believe these trailers are serious. Because if they are -- well, how depressing.

You do realize that ME and DA:O are developed by the same people, right? It is ridiculous to think that a studio couldn't match the graphics of a game they themselves developed two years ago.

[Angie Gallant]

Doesn't pretty much every rpg have platemail bikinis though?

Even if that's true, does that mean I have to like it? I'm more annoyed by the "crazy chick murders what appears to be an ally for stupid reasons and then you throw a dick in her" bit, but the armor skirt still makes me roll my eyes.

[Murbella]

Is that actually a scene in dragon age? it sounds pretty silly unless the pc is evil... then maybe i could understand a chaotic evil warrior of some sort (chain mail?) killing someone she formerly put up with for the pc's sake until they annoyed her too much.

[Equisilus]

I don't understand some of the hate here. It's almost like some of you are getting some perverse pleasure in jumping on the "hate" bandwagon. You completely ignore that many people who've seen the actual game (and not just a handful of trailers) keep praising it. And all this talk here about how it looks, when RPG fans are supposed to be less concerned about graphics then they are about story.

This might be a dud and it certainly continues to be marketed badly (from our perspective) but there are many positive signs and it's not like there are very many other AAA RPG's out there.

I think the back and forth of attitude towards DA:O is all due to the way the information has been presented. Sometimes we get straight facts, gameplay vids, shots of user interface, etc, that give us something very specific to comment upon, whether to the good or bad. But taking each thing on its own there's nothing to get overly upset or excited about. Other times we get the marketing hype which really has people wondering what-the-hell or people being over-the-top excited depending on how it hit you. The hype just seems to be working the wrong way sometimes (hence the "hate"). And it's the hype-machine that is swaying people back and forth the most, I think, and the facts can't compensate. After all, isn't the purpose of hype to sway without consideration of the facts?

I've been fluctuating around the meh to feeling-okay attitude with DA:O for a long while now. The marketing's done nothing but given me something to comment upon. The facts have been both good and bad. DA:O is doing the mid-range shuffle.

[Squee]

I don't understand some of the hate here. It's almost like some of you are getting some perverse pleasure in jumping on the "hate" bandwagon. You completely ignore that many people who've seen the actual game (and not just a handful of trailers) keep praising it. And all this talk here about how it looks, when RPG fans are supposed to be less concerned about graphics then they are about story.

This might be a dud and it certainly continues to be marketed badly (from our perspective) but there are many positive signs and it's not like there are very many other AAA RPG's out there.
I don't particularly trust other people's opinions of the game when everything I see of the game myself looks bad to decent. And complaining about the graphics seems fairly reasonable given that Bioware's previous big RPG, Mass Effect, looks better than Dragon Age. That definitely doesn't make or break the game, but it's certainly worth noticing and mentioning.

Is that Desslock's Hellgate London review score?
It sure is.

[Kalle]

but the armor skirt still makes me roll my eyes.

Not to discount the apparent silliness but the armor skirt is not remotely in the same class as a chainmail bikini. It is a real type of armor that allows for mobility while being light and cheap, the latter being most important. It's not particularly good armor but it helps. I'm much more annoyed at the fact that her armour includes massive cleavage.

[Adree]

You do realize that ME and DA:O are developed by the same people, right? It is ridiculous to think that a studio couldn't match the graphics of a game they themselves developed two years ago.

ME2 is being done by the team that did ME. The B-team is doing Dragon Age.

[Cubit]

ME2 is being done by the team that did ME. The B-team is doing Dragon Age.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

[Kalle]

The B-team is doing Dragon Age.

So, the NWN team?

[Shimarenda]

I think the back and forth of attitude towards DA:O is all due to the way the information has been presented. Sometimes we get straight facts, gameplay vids, shots of user interface, etc, that give us something very specific to comment upon, whether to the good or bad. But taking each thing on its own there's nothing to get overly upset or excited about. Other times we get the marketing hype which really has people wondering what-the-hell or people being over-the-top excited depending on how it hit you. The hype just seems to be working the wrong way sometimes (hence the "hate"). And it's the hype-machine that is swaying people back and forth the most, I think, and the facts can't compensate. After all, isn't the purpose of hype to sway without consideration of the facts?

I've been fluctuating around the meh to feeling-okay attitude with DA:O for a long while now. The marketing's done nothing but given me something to comment upon. The facts have been both good and bad. DA:O is doing the mid-range shuffle.
I'm as interested in the characters and story in an RPG as I am the gameplay or the nature of the combat, so the facts are looking pretty bad to me. The characterization in particular seems juvenile. It doesn't make me want to spend time with any of these characters--no matter how good the gameplay is.

[greg wak]

The shot I saw of the map makes me think DA is going to have a bunch of cool places to explore and items, peoples, and situations to discover. Also Bioware has a pretty good track record to me of having a decent story. I could give a crap about skirt armor or graphics level or animation. This is not what I play these games for. So I'm still excited and wish it was coming out tomorrow.

[GatInDaHat]

The fact that it doesn't support multi-player kills it for me regardless.

[belgerog]

I don't understand some of the hate here. It's almost like some of you are getting some perverse pleasure in jumping on the "hate" bandwagon. You completely ignore that many people who've seen the actual game (and not just a handful of trailers) keep praising it. And all this talk here about how it looks, when RPG fans are supposed to be less concerned about graphics then they are about story.


If word of mouth and reviews for this game are good, I'll be the first to buy it. I want this game to be good. And even though this Leliana trailer gives a bad impression of the game content (as opposed to a bad impression of the marketing itself), I still have hope that most of the content will be good quality.

[ydejin]

Not to discount the apparent silliness but the armor skirt is not remotely in the same class as a chainmail bikini. It is a real type of armor that allows for mobility while being light and cheap, the latter being most important. It's not particularly good armor but it helps. I'm much more annoyed at the fact that her armour includes massive cleavage.

That's what I was thinking. Isn't the traditional Greek and Roman armor essentially an armor skirt like what Leliana is wearing in the middle combat scenes in the video (http://dragonage.bioware.com/characters/leliana). Looks pretty standard except for, as you say, the silly cleavage. Overall though I would say definitely a more realistic look than most fantasy female fighters.

[mkozlows]

So I finally saw the trailer, and... it's not that bad, really. I mean, it's dated as hell, but what do you expect from a game that was announced back in 1997 or whatever? It really does seem like the natural heir to the BG/NWN lineage, and it's not Dragon Age's fault that games like KOTOR and (especially) Mass Effect have advanced the genre since then.

[Adree]

So I finally saw the trailer, and... it's not that bad, really. I mean, it's dated as hell, but what do you expect from a game that was announced back in 1997 or whatever? It really does seem like the natural heir to the BG/NWN lineage, and it's not Dragon Age's fault that games like KOTOR and (especially) Mass Effect have advanced the genre since then.

I've heard better voice acting in '97. This is Bioware, not some eastern european dev getting his friends to say lines phonetically.

[extarbags]

If word of mouth and reviews for this game are good, I'll be the first to buy it. I want this game to be good. And even though this Leliana trailer gives a bad impression of the game content (as opposed to a bad impression of the marketing itself), I still have hope that most of the content will be good quality.

This is how I feel too. I'm hoping for the best and I'm keeping an open mind, but as it stands, the gameplay stuff I've read seems either boring, outdated, or both, and the trailers look pretty awful. And by the way--the trailer takes place in a tavern? Really? You're making a trailer to highlight the reasons your game is fresh and fun and cool and worth playing, and the thing you decide to put front and center is a tavern? Why not just make a video showcasing your game's exciting lineup of crates while you're at it?

[Cubit]

So I finally saw the trailer, and... it's not that bad, really. I mean, it's dated as hell, but what do you expect from a game that was announced back in 1997 or whatever? It really does seem like the natural heir to the BG/NWN lineage, and it's not Dragon Age's fault that games like KOTOR and (especially) Mass Effect have advanced the genre since then.

You are kidding, right? Dragon Age is a game being released at the end of 2009, and should be held to the same standard we hold all new releases to. I can't believe people are actually apologizing for Dragon Age's graphics and sound because "KOTOR and Mass Effect did it so well, we can't hold DA to the same standards as these epic games that are now multiple years old!". Please. If DA looks and sounds like shit in trailers, it should be called out as such. Until I see reviews and gameplay videos that show otherwise, this is a no sale for me.

[mkozlows]

You are kidding, right? Dragon Age is a game being released at the end of 2009, and should be held to the same standard we hold all new releases to.

People play NWN2, which is worse in every way than what I've seen here. People love Fallout 3, which has worse character animation and voice-acting than what I've seen here. By all appearances, Dragon Age holds up to any RPG that doesn't have Mass Effect in the name.

[mkozlows]

I've heard better voice acting in '97. This is Bioware, not some eastern european dev getting his friends to say lines phonetically.

And I've heard worse in 2009. The DA stuff sounds stiff and unnatural, but compare that to the Bethesda standard, wherein each line was apparently read in isolation with no thought for continuity, so a character will spasm back and forth between screaming in terror and speaking calmly as a conversation progresses.

[extarbags]

And I've heard worse in 2009. The DA stuff sounds stiff and unnatural, but compare that to the Bethesda standard, wherein each line was apparently read in isolation with no thought for continuity, so a character will spasm back and forth between screaming in terror and speaking calmly as a conversation progresses.

Ok, I'll compare it to the voice work in Oblivion and Fallout 3: it stinks. I don't know how you can defend it, dude. Don't judge a book by its cover, the voice acting doesn't speak for the gameplay, fine, but that's really bad voice acting. You've heard worse in 2009? I haven't. Not from a supposed AAA game. Not in a game made by native English speakers.

[Adree]

Ok, I'll compare it to the voice work in Oblivion and Fallout 3: it stinks. I don't know how you can defend it, dude. Don't judge a book by its cover, the voice acting doesn't speak for the gameplay, fine, but that's really bad voice acting. You've heard worse in 2009? I haven't. Not from a supposed AAA game. Not in a game made by native English speakers.

Agreed, I'd almost give you Oblivion since it's so fucking repetitive but even then the lines are usually said properly and not like line readings. Fallout? Sorry I have no problem with the acting in that.

[Stridergg]

In your country does 'A' mean 'a series of' and do they not have plurals when referring to game trailers?

In your country do they stop reading at first sentence?

[Joe M.]

Cubit: I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that DA's combat will be superior in every way to Mass Effect. You can keep bitching about random tavern scene, though.

[Adree]

Cubit: I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that DA's combat will be superior in every way to Mass Effect.


http://i27.tinypic.com/jze3ki.gif

[Senjak]

http://i27.tinypic.com/jze3ki.gif

I'm fascinated by this. What was his theory there? Had he watched so many cartoons that he thought his section of that branch would stay where it was and the rest of the tree would collapse?

[Alistair]

I think from the start it's looked like a fairly small step up from the NWNs, which is not a bad thing in itself, but with all awesome world-building that's going on elsewhere DA does look a bit left behind. So there's a lot of pressure for other aspects to deliver, and some of them aren't working for some of us. Overall though, these 'scene' trailers aren't really what you spend time doing in an RPG, so I'm just falling back on my original expectations for 'the next RPG from those guys...'

[Eightball]

Even if that's true, does that mean I have to like it? I'm more annoyed by the "crazy chick murders what appears to be an ally for stupid reasons and then you throw a dick in her" bit, but the armor skirt still makes me roll my eyes.

Watching it, I got the feeling that the scene had been gutted to fit a trailer. That is, it seemed as if the middle of the scene was removed at some point...you know, the part explaining WHY the red headed woman went all Lizzie Borden...

[sam16]

Watching it, I got the feeling that the scene had been gutted to fit a trailer. That is, it seemed as if the middle of the scene was removed at some point...you know, the part explaining WHY the red headed woman went all Lizzie Borden...

Yeah, it seems like they chopped it up to make a 30 second teaser. I'm also fairly sure that the sex bit was an end part of a romance shoved in there.

[Oghier]

... I'm just falling back on my original expectations for 'the next RPG from those guys...'

Spot on. The trailers may be 'meh,' but Bioware is one of a two or three developers who have earned a degree of trust, at least from me. The only thing I want from the marketing campaign is an accurate release date.

[Quitch]

The graphics and lip sync were off, but that's not the annoying bit, the dreadful bit was the voice acting. Game animation and graphics when going for a realistic look are not in a position to carry a game by themselves so VO becomes even more important, especially where this is the big method for conveying the very personality of the NPCs you're supposed to bond with. That the VO is bad is a worrying sign because it's such an important part of a party game.

Just look at a game like Baldur's Gate, how many people fell in love with Minsc because of his lines and VO?

[frank austin]

The thing that I think upsets people so much about DA:O is that it seems so damned regressive. Mass Effect has infinitely better aesthetics and it was released two years ago. NWN and NWN2 had multiplayer support. The PC RPG crowd is maturing while this game is being marketed towards teenagers.

I find myself totally puzzled by this game and what Bioware is trying to accomplish with it.

[Boinkology]

You do realize that ME and DA:O are developed by the same people, right? It is ridiculous to think that a studio couldn't match the graphics of a game they themselves developed two years ago.

Completely different engines, and possibly different toolsets. Didn't Mass Effect use Unreal Engine 3? DA:O is Bioware's proprietary engine, which is 5 years old since they started working on it. That doesn't completely justify the disparity in quality, but its definitely a reason for it. OTOH, Unreal Engine 3 is constantly being updated and optimized by Epic, which is one of the perks you get from licensing it.

[unbongwah]

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215167973_6Ecf3-L-2.jpg (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/5/10/)

"She's...she just austere."

Man, I hope the haters are wrong. :-(

[RepoMan]

I don't think Gabe would know that word. That's a Tycho word.

[Joe M.]

Man, I hope the haters are wrong. :-(

Maybe someone can help us out here: has anyone who's actually played the game given it as much grief as the people wringing their hands over trailers? Mind you, I think their marketing department should be fired, but I recognize it's a marketing issue and -- if Desslock is to be trusted -- not a gameplay issue.

[André Costa]

Pretty sure that there was a guy some pages back talking about what he saw in ComicCon and even made some videos about it. Seems like he liked it.

[Therlun]

I bet it will be exactly like all Bioware games before, no matter what Bioware-PR, the haters and fanboys claim.
Fun, grindy, with a jedi-saint/orc-mass murderer morale system you can freely switch away from right before the boss fight.
It will suffer from a poor console UI and it will have too many dungeon crawls, an imposing way to represent the story and "extensive" but extremely one-dimensional characters.

There, I just wrote a review for it... I bet once DAO is released this one won't stick out from all the other reviews. :P

[Sarkus]

I started a thread over on the official forums asking why so many boards have such a negative impression of DA at this point. It lasted a couple of days before the mods locked it (for a relativley weak reason). At any rate, even among the fanbase there the general sense is that the marketing for the game has been horrible and is creating false impressions of what kind of game it is.

On a side note, the level of developer involvement over there has really dropped off. A few months ago there were dev posts in most threads. Now they show up very rarely. I'm not sure what that means, but it is interesting.

[frank austin]

That could be nothing more than crunch time, Sarkus. At least that's what I'd imagine.

[Sarkus]

That could be nothing more than crunch time, Sarkus. At least that's what I'd imagine.

Not for the creative people, though. The level designs and writing have all been done for some time. What they are waiting on, for the most part, is the console conversion.

Maybe they've moved on to other projects or maybe a decision was made to reduce the amount of dev posting. Its hard to say.

[Bahimiron]

I have faith that I will enjoy Dragon Age.

That said, I think one of the biggest problems with that trailer* is that they chopped it up so much that the voice acting ends up sounding worse than Far Cry 2. Maybe I'm just being a little overly optimistic, but I have to think that there were probably pauses in the dialog that got cut for a few extra seconds of time to cram the trailer into a certain length of time.

*Well, other than the sex scene and the girl being kind of awful.

[frank austin]

Did any of you guys watch the other female character's trailer? (EDIT: Morrigan (http://dragonage.bioware.com/characters/morrigan))

"I see the stories of Grey Warden endurance are not exaggerated..."

Good fucking lord.

[LowComDenom]

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1935/tasteful.jpg

Very subtle and mature.

That website looks like the marketing department was trying to copy Diablo 3 (http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/)'s and mix it up with this color scheme:

http://sdtom.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/valkyrie-cover.jpg

[Cubit]

Did any of you guys watch the other female character's trailer? (EDIT: Morrigan (http://dragonage.bioware.com/characters/morrigan))

"I see the stores of Grey Warden endurance are not exaggerated..."

Good fucking lord.

Gah! Make it stop!!!

it's soooo horrible...

[ydejin]

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1935/tasteful.jpg

Very subtle and mature.
Yeah, I've been meaning to mention that. Their pathetic Flash Progress Bar is emblematic of the whole marketing approach to this game. I hope it's just the marketing approach. I'm a huge Bioware fan, but I'm going to be very disappointed if Bioware turns out to be going down the "Prince of Persia: Warrior Within" route -- taking everything they've done before and perverting it to go all "edgy."

[Spect]

Gah! Make it stop!!!

it's soooo horrible...

I'm not listening to you... LALALALA.

I have my hopes way up for this game. It's either going to be one of the best RPGs I've playing in a long time, or it's going straight to this list:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=54752

[Adree]

Wow, a record skip. The bottom has been found.

[Royal Fool]

I think the marketing people for this game should be omitted from the credits, since they didn't actually contribute to it in any way.

I swear I've never been so uninterested in a Bioware title.

[Njal]

I've pre-ordered this game as it has a lot of what I'm looking for in a RPG. However their marketing department wants me to take back my pre-order and scrub my brain with steel wool.

[extarbags]

Well I'm glad they decided to show us each female character's version of that terrible sex scene.

Unfortunately, this trailer adds one more thing I can't stand: a game calling attention to how clichéd it is. This is the part where we're all blah blah blah? No, this is the part where instead of having a character talk about how trite and stereotypical the character you just put in the game is, you hold the delete key for a minute and a half and come up with something more interesting. Letting us know that you know that you phoned it in makes it worse, not better.

[Vesper]

I was the one who posted impressions/video from GenCon several pages back. In a con setting, it was near impossible to hear audio or judge voice acting, but the writing that I was reading (although I was rushed) seemed pretty good. What I was trying to focus on in my reports is how fun the game is to play. These trailers make me cringe and wonder if it's just poorly chosen clips by the marketing department, or if Bioware's writing/VO quality has gone down the crapper. All I can report on is what I experienced - the actual gameplay was awesome, and truly seemed like a modern version of Infinity Engine goodness.

The portions where I was wandering dungeons, equipping items, fighting creatures, disarming traps, and actively playing were great enough for me to pre-order the game. Even if the cutscenes are all as bad as those posted above, I'll still be playing this on day one. It wouldn't be the first game with great gameplay and awful writing. It'd just be unexpected from Bioware.

[extarbags]

Well, I guess it's a matter of taste, but I don't exactly find "the gameplay of 1998 meets the technology of 2004" to be very compelling.

[Murbella]

If the gameplay is an improvement over the average rpg, who really cares when it is from?

[extarbags]

That's a big if. There's a reason not too many games these days crib their core gameplay from the Infinity Engine games.

[Murbella]

That's a big if. There's a reason not too many games these days crib their core gameplay from the Infinity Engine games.

Are you saying the gameplay in oblivion is an improvement?

[extarbags]

Are you saying the gameplay in oblivion is an improvement?

If we're talking about the core game mechanics, yes.

[Vesper]

Of course everyone's opinion on the matter differs, but I vastly prefer the style of Baldur's Gate 2 to the "direct control" of something like Morrowind or Oblivion. But that's probably largely from my strategic preference in games (heck, turn based would even be better.) That being said, DA also seems to allow a hands on control if you prefer that (by zooming in on the PC version, and it's the only control available on the console version.)

[ydejin]

Of course everyone's opinion on the matter differs, but I vastly prefer the style of Baldur's Gate 2 to the "direct control" of something like Morrowind or Oblivion.
Me too.

[Murbella]

If we're talking about the core game mechanics, yes.

I prefer having some depth to combat personally over a wild click fest (there are games that did first person rpg combat well, but the TES don't include one of them). The crpg implementation of D&D over the years is (in my opinion) better as well. We're talking about a game where depending on your choices at character creation, you can level up by talking to people which will not only severely hurt your character in the long run due to the leveling system, but also scale enemies up to be stronger when you aren't.

[extarbags]

I prefer having some depth to combat personally over a wild click fest

Me too. That's one reason I hate the combat in the Infinity Engine games.

[Murbella]

Me too. That's one reason I hate the combat in the Infinity Engine games.

I'm at a loss for words.

[Gordon Cameron]

If we're talking about the core game mechanics, yes.

Apples and oranges... a multi-person, party-based combat system has pleasures that a single-character, first-person style a la Oblivion doesn't have, and vice versa. I like them both, but Baldur's Gate II is a better game than Oblivion, irrespective of their release dates. And while it was fun to be chased by an ice troll around a pillar in a dungeon somewhere, or to summon a Daedra and watch it wreak havoc from the safety of my chameleon suit, Oblivion never gave me a battle even remotely as memorable as (for instance) the boss fights in Throne of Bhaal, which truly felt like marathon, epic clashes.

Infinity Engine combat was never a wild clickfest, by the way. Pausable real-time may be annoying to turn-based purists, but you have all the time in the world to make your decisions.

[Njal]

What he said.

[Sarkus]

I prefer having some depth to combat personally over a wild click fest


Me too. That's one reason I hate the combat in the Infinity Engine games.


I'm at a loss for words.

No kidding. What a WTF statement to make.

[Lux]

No kidding. What a WTF statement to make.

Perhaps he played without pausing during combat. I tried that once and not even my online RTS chops couldn't save me.

[Benhur]

I took the time to watch all of the character videos, including Leliana, and I just don't see what the big deal is. I actually thought parts of it were funny and though I question the reasoning for including the sex scenes (in all of the female character videos?) I didn't think they were mind-blowingly awful. Sex in video games has always been uncomfortable to me, but if you guys going to kill this game based on 2 second snippets in a trailer, go back to Baldur's Gate 2 (one of my absolute favorite RPG's ever) and run through some of the romance quests. Some of the dialogue in those quests was cringe-worthy, but it didn't keep BG2 from becoming a masterpiece. I have liked just about everything i've seen from Dragon Age so far and it's still my most anticipated game coming out this Fall.

[Adam Sensoy]

SHE IS AN EXOTIC BEAUTY WHO HAS COME TO HOLD THE REST OF MANKIND IN CONTEMPT!!!

[extarbags]

Perhaps he played without pausing during combat. I tried that once and not even my online RTS chops couldn't save me.

No, I paused. It was still boring. Real Time Pausable is the worst of both worlds; the slow pace of turn-based meets the shallow clickfest of Diablo and makes for one interminably dull experience.

Don't get me wrong; those are generally good games. But at least for me, I enjoyed those games in spite of the terrible combat and dippy character systems, not because of them. I sure as shit don't miss them, and I don't think the reason for the decline in use of that kind of system is a mystery.

[Stridergg]

the slow pace of turn-based meets the shallow clickfest of Diablo .

huh? Are we even talking about the same game? You could say a lot of things about BG2 but "shallow clickfest of Diablo"?..

Maybe you are thinking about that action RPG for PS2 :)

[Murbella]

How is real time pausable the worst of both worlds? I'm starting to question if you're even serious now. it allows you to pause at will and on demand to take your time giving orders and reacting to situations, but at the same time it doesn't slow down when you want things to go faster (ie after you told everyone what to do and want them to do their stuff). Since you generally give orders when paused, stating that it is a diablo clickfest is blatantly false. Not to mention something can't have the slow pace of a turn based and be a clickfest.

The fact that you thought oblivion was a good example of an improvement in game mechanics further brings your reasoning on this even more in to question.

[Telefrog]

Shallow clickfest of Diablo!?!?

Are you sure you're talking about the same game that we are?

[Eightball]

Shallow clickfest of Diablo!?!?

Are you sure you're talking about the same game that we are?

Wait - you mean I wasn't supposed to click the enemy for each swing in Baldur's Gate 2??????? I even had the timing down pat; every 6 seconds!!!!

Ok - I have no idea what the hell extarbags is talking about.

[Angie Gallant]

Yes, the romance dialog in Baldur's Gate 2 is laughable. I have this crazy expectation where people improve their craft with time and experience. Yes, the sex scenes are gonna be hilarious and dumb, that's a given and doesn't even factor into my reaction to these videos. It's what they are showing as characterization that is making me roll my eyes. For chistssake, the male romancable character has a dead woman in his personal history. Again.

[Rock8man]

I'll probably regret defending extarbags, but I kind of know where he's coming from even though he's not expressing himself very well.

Part of the feel of any combat system is a number of things: how in-control you feel, how often you feel like you're making interesting decisions, how hectic feels at any given moment, etc. Not all these things play out rationally in one's mind. A lot of these factors are subjective and feel different for different people.

For me, going from a turn-based combat sytem like Fallout to a real-time system like Baldur's Gate, it felt like I was less "in-control" at any given moment, making less interesting decisions, and combat felt a lot more hectic. So I didn't like it as much as Fallout's turn-based system. Similarly, comparing it to Diablo's "Click-fest", I felt like Diablo allowed you to be more in control at any given moment by allowing direct control, allowed more interesting decisions in what spells/abilities to use because there were so many of them and they all played out in real time, and I also felt Diablo's combat felt less hectic because it didn't play out in rounds, but felt more immediate.

With Baldur's Gate's combat, to me it never felt like there were many choices. You tell your tanks to close in, you keep your archers and spell caster's back. That made the bulk of the "decisions" in that combat system meaningless to me. Once in a while I'd encounter a big enemy and the tactic would be to cast something like fireball with the casters, so I kept the tanks and fighters back shooting the bow while the fireball came down, so they couldn't take friendly fire. Whether or not this feels interesting to people is a subjective thing. To me, both turn-based combat and real-time Diablo combat felt more interesting in any given moment because I was either counting squares/hexes on the ground to see where I could go to take cover in the next round, or trying to back away from the enemy as an archer in Diablo before they could get to me. It's not a rational thing perhaps, but that felt like there was more decision-making involved in both of those, where-as with the Infinity Engine real-time pausable combat, it felt like any decisions I made were always cookie-cutter and the same, with occasional exceptions. Now, that's probably also true of Diablo and Fallout combat, but it didn't feel cookie-cutter because it felt more immediate. I guess I was too distracted counting hexes and looking at percentage chance to hit the groin in Fallout to notice that I was doing the same thing over and over. Similarly I was too busy frantically trying to get out of a charging enemy's way in Diablo to notice that I'd done the same thing dozens of times. In Baldur's Gate, I was never distracted enough, I guess, so I always noticed that I was doing essentially the same thing over and over, and it never felt interesting to me.

(Caveat: Baldur's Gate had low level characters, and there really wasn't as much choice as I imagine BG2 probably had, which I still haven't played).

In Icewind Dale, this problem was alleviated for me because I played through the game in multiplayer, and it always felt like I had to condition my responses based on what the two other people in my party did. So for example, when the fighter/mage in our party decided to drink a giant strength potion and go on a killing rampage, it was exciting and exhilarating for all of us as we followed him and tried to keep him from killing himself as he took on a cavern full of giants by himself. Other times the fighter/mage cast a spell which damaged everything between him and his target so we had to frantically get out of the way if his target moved so that the line of attack did not cross us. Playing in that setting was always exciting and unpredictable, because unlike in single player, combat even in the infinity engine was super involving and it felt like I was making really interesting decisions all the time by responding to what the rest of my team did.

[frank austin]

For chistssake, the male romancable character has a dead woman in his personal history. Again.

How else are the female PCs supposed to use the powers of their magical healing vaginas on him?

[Quitch]

I'm a big fan of pausable real-time, it means the easy battles flow fast and the difficult ones allow me as much time as I need. The more spells and potions my party had the more time I needed to spend paused while I worked up intricate combos. And in a game with close combat, turn-based just leads to all sorts of weird imbalances between range and close up attacks. Just look at X-COM for this.

I'm actually playing through KOTOR for the first time at the moment and I'd kill to have the Infinity Engine back. The idea of doing it all from over the shoulder is nice, but it doesn't half make combat an unnecessary pain in the arse.

I certainly don't understand comparisons to Fallout a game which had terrible combat and which had all the slowness of turn-based with none of the depth necessary to make it work. Eschalon Book 1 was a more recent example of pointless turn-based combat. For comparison I thought Jagged Alliance 2 is a fine examples of where turn-based combat works beautifully.


Yes, the romance dialog in Baldur's Gate 2 is laughable

I actually liked the Jaheria romance (in SoA, in ToB it did some kind of weird reset), but having also experienced the Anomen romance I sympathise fully. I suppose it depends as well on how much you've lost yourself in the game, I quite enjoy party banter and NPC romance (be it with the player or each other), it gives the game more life.

[extarbags]

I'll probably regret defending extarbags, but I kind of know where he's coming from even though he's not expressing himself very well.

Part of the feel of any combat system is a number of things: how in-control you feel, how often you feel like you're making interesting decisions, how hectic feels at any given moment, etc. Not all these things play out rationally in one's mind. A lot of these factors are subjective and feel different for different people.

For me, going from a turn-based combat sytem like Fallout to a real-time system like Baldur's Gate, it felt like I was less "in-control" at any given moment, making less interesting decisions, and combat felt a lot more hectic. So I didn't like it as much as Fallout's turn-based system. Similarly, comparing it to Diablo's "Click-fest", I felt like Diablo allowed you to be more in control at any given moment by allowing direct control, allowed more interesting decisions in what spells/abilities to use because there were so many of them and they all played out in real time, and I also felt Diablo's combat felt less hectic because it didn't play out in rounds, but felt more immediate.

With Baldur's Gate's combat, to me it never felt like there were many choices. You tell your tanks to close in, you keep your archers and spell caster's back. That made the bulk of the "decisions" in that combat system meaningless to me. Once in a while I'd encounter a big enemy and the tactic would be to cast something like fireball with the casters, so I kept the tanks and fighters back shooting the bow while the fireball came down, so they couldn't take friendly fire. Whether or not this feels interesting to people is a subjective thing. To me, both turn-based combat and real-time Diablo combat felt more interesting in any given moment because I was either counting squares/hexes on the ground to see where I could go to take cover in the next round, or trying to back away from the enemy as an archer in Diablo before they could get to me. It's not a rational thing perhaps, but that felt like there was more decision-making involved in both of those, where-as with the Infinity Engine real-time pausable combat, it felt like any decisions I made were always cookie-cutter and the same, with occasional exceptions. Now, that's probably also true of Diablo and Fallout combat, but it didn't feel cookie-cutter because it felt more immediate. I guess I was too distracted counting hexes and looking at percentage chance to hit the groin in Fallout to notice that I was doing the same thing over and over. Similarly I was too busy frantically trying to get out of a charging enemy's way in Diablo to notice that I'd done the same thing dozens of times. In Baldur's Gate, I was never distracted enough, I guess, so I always noticed that I was doing essentially the same thing over and over, and it never felt interesting to me.

(Caveat: Baldur's Gate had low level characters, and there really wasn't as much choice as I imagine BG2 probably had, which I still haven't played).

In Icewind Dale, this problem was alleviated for me because I played through the game in multiplayer, and it always felt like I had to condition my responses based on what the two other people in my party did. So for example, when the fighter/mage in our party decided to drink a giant strength potion and go on a killing rampage, it was exciting and exhilarating for all of us as we followed him and tried to keep him from killing himself as he took on a cavern full of giants by himself. Other times the fighter/mage cast a spell which damaged everything between him and his target so we had to frantically get out of the way if his target moved so that the line of attack did not cross us. Playing in that setting was always exciting and unpredictable, because unlike in single player, combat even in the infinity engine was super involving and it felt like I was making really interesting decisions all the time by responding to what the rest of my team did.

This is exactly right, minus the part about playing IWD multiplayer, which I did not do for very long.


I certainly don't understand comparisons to Fallout a game which had terrible combat and which had all the slowness of turn-based with none of the depth necessary to make it work.

Wow, what? I guess this all just goes to show that there's no accounting for taste. I honestly didn't expect to see very many people defending IE combat, and I certainly didn't expect to see anyone dumping on Fallout's (by all accounts, I thought) excellent combat system.

[sam16]

How else are the female PCs supposed to use the powers of their magical healing vaginas on him?

I'm not entirely sure how much weight to give this, but David Gaider has said here (http://www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1248804720) that none of the romances are of the 'fixer upper' types.

[Vesper]

Wow, what? I guess this all just goes to show that there's no accounting for taste. I honestly didn't expect to see very many people defending IE combat, and I certainly didn't expect to see anyone dumping on Fallout's (by all accounts, I thought) excellent combat system.
I really love Fallout. But, I think you're forgetting it's the system where you walk up to someone and shoot them in the eye repeatedly, at point blank range.

[balut]

I'm not a huge fan of Infinity Engine combat, either, although it wasn't a gamebreaker for me. I think it's the lack of measured direct control and feedback that you get from a strictly turn-based system. Sure, you can pause and issue orders, but then if you want to see all the results, you have to pause and pore over the text result log to see what happened to whom, and why. It's a layer of tedium that offsets any relieved tedium that real-time combat resolves in quick/clean-up battles.

Then there's the choice of either cat-wrangling the AI-influence of your characters, or pausing and manually issuing orders to non-AI-enabled characters. Yes, the latter is similar to turn-based implementations, but the real-time resolution just isn't my thing. I especially found it annoying when managing spellcasting in IE games, as you have to issue the casting order, then figure out the real-time timing to pull back any other characters from the AoE, and at the same time figure out the timing of the actual spell and the timing of the enemies that will be charging your party. It adds a layer of annoyance, especially when area-targeting an AoE spell like fireball. Sure you can target an enemy NPC, but then they can move before the spell goes off and throw off the AoE planning.

I guess I just prefer the simpler, direct control and result prediction of turn-based combat.

[Mordrak]

For chistssake, the male romancable character has a dead woman in his personal history. Again.

He could turn out to be a serial killer after you've already had sex with him and then be forced to kill him. Wait, am I the only one who thinks that's funny?

[quatoria]

I'm not entirely sure how much weight to give this, but David Gaider has said here (http://www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1248804720) that none of the romances are of the 'fixer upper' types.

I'll believe that when I see it. Those are hardly the first time we've heard comments like that from Gaider.

[Talisker]

I hope they put a demo up for the 360. While the marketing has turned me off, it's still Bioware, so I'd definitely give a demo a shot.

[Anaxagoras]

I'm a big fan of pausable real-time, it means the easy battles flow fast and the difficult ones allow me as much time as I need.
I had the exact same experience. The strength of pausable real-time really came to the fore when you had a party of bow users that could easily kill crappy mobs before they ever got to you, but you could break out the big guns (spells & whatnot) for real fights.

Baldur's Gate: All Archers, All the Time


I actually liked the Jaheria romance (in SoA, in ToB it did some kind of weird reset), but having also experienced the Anomen romance I sympathise fully.
The Jeheria romance always played out kinda weird for me because in Baldur's Gate 1 I consistently killed off Jaheria's loser boyfriend fighter so I could have Jaheria's nifty druid spells without the crappy boyfriend.

[idrisz]

I think for baldur's gate 2 was all wizard all the time.

especially later on with wish, you can replenish all of your spells.

[balut]

Another annoyance in IE real-time-pausable combat: melee chasing. There's no provision for "engaging" an enemy in melee; instead, your melee characters will end up constantly running after enemies that instead will beeline for your casters or archers or what-have-you, as there's no provision for melee characters to effectively "tie up" enemies with their attacks.

[Kalle]

How else are the female PCs supposed to use the powers of their magical healing vaginas on him?

"Won't someone heal my broken penis!"

[extarbags]

I had the exact same experience. The strength of pausable real-time really came to the fore when you had a party of bow users that could easily kill crappy mobs before they ever got to you, but you could break out the big guns (spells & whatnot) for real fights.

Baldur's Gate: All Archers, All the Time

So the system works when you play a lopsided party specifically designed to make it work? Oh, fantastic.

[belgerog]

Part of the feel of any combat system is a number of things: how in-control you feel, how often you feel like you're making interesting decisions, how hectic feels at any given moment, etc. Not all these things play out rationally in one's mind. A lot of these factors are subjective and feel different for different people.


Your argument makes sense. As you say, much of it is subjective, and for me, what made me enjoy combat in BG2, to some extent, were the spells. You might argue that deeper tactics weren't possible with them, but they were many, and they were cool. Whether there was a deep balance in the spell system, it felt good to have an enourmous range of possibilities at hand. Even if the difference was in visuals only.

Actually, this is more related to character progression than combat itself: each time I found a scroll for a higher level spell, if it sounded awesome from its descritpion, I'd eagerly await the moment I could use it.

Besides that, I actually did feel in control with the real-time pause system, since I spent much of an encounter reacting to fine changes in the situation. The common tactic as said by others was to send the melee guys up front, and summons for harder combats, and then have fun with mages. There was also something to controlling summoned creatures well enough in tough encounters so that your party would survive, and being careful to resummon monsters as they died.

As for mage duels, even though spell protections, counter spell protections looked cool from the descriptions, I rarely used them, aside from obvious situations. Maybe because I was lazy. Did someone always go through the intricacies of using pierce magic, warding whips, etc? I usually took all enemy non-casters first, and left casters to nuke at the end, mostly with melee weapons.

All this might sound confusing, but I suppose my point is that I didn't pay much attention to wether the combat system was really elegant or not because there were enough good things there to distract me and keep the illusion, especially when so much in the game came from overall progression and not the thrill of specific encounters.

[ScubaV]

The depth of the combat mostly came from spellcasting in all its (offensive/defensive, mage/cleric/druid, pre-battle/mid-battle) forms. Melee and ranged physical characters were mostly point and shoot, although at times you'd need to use the terrain and clever positioning to protect your back row and make a bottleneck.

Still, the combat is faaaaar better than Morrowind or Oblivion. Those have to be two of the worst combat systems in any RPG I've played.

[Murbella]

I really love Fallout. But, I think you're forgetting it's the system where you walk up to someone and shoot them in the eye repeatedly, at point blank range.

This. I love fallout 1/2 and even 3 was pretty good, but the fallout games didn't have much in the way of combat choices. About the most choice you had was trying to hit secondary targets when bursting in the first 2 games and fallout 3 kind of removed that. As someone said, if you don't have the fast shot perk (i think that was the name), just target the eyes constantly. If you do, just shoot them. That is fallout, still a wonderful series though.

It is ironic that diablo was brought up as having more abilities as this is not the case in general. It is true that non magic users don't have as many abilities, but magic users have vastly more. Then of course D&D games are party games where you control more than one character as well.

You're just being silly extrarbags. We understand you don't like the Infinity Engine games, but implying that enjoying the combat in them means you have bad taste when they include some of the most loved rpgs of all time is nothing less than crazy.

You also don't need a lopsided party to make anything work. I never played through any of them with all archers or all wizards. I always had a balanced party of melee and casters (although i never really used pure ranged non magical classes).

[Anaxagoras]

So the system works when you play a lopsided party specifically designed to make it work? Oh, fantastic.

Actually, my parties weren't lopsided. I just made sure to always put a missile weapon (preferably a bow) in everybody's hand. Oh, and I favored dual-classes that allowed casters to use bows.

But it wasn't a perfect system. As others have pointed out, "melee chasing" could be a problem, and it didn't have the tactical depth of Temple of Elemental Evil. (for example) And you apparently didn't like the feel of it. Fair enough. For my part, I *loved* the "Fire at will!" game mechanic.

[balut]

A great deal of the praise here for IE combat is the breadth of spellcasting tactics involved, and not necessarily the real-time implementation. I just think it would work just as well, if not better, as a pure turn-based implementation. It would still provide the tactical spellcasting choices, but with an easier targeting/timing mechanic. It's not a perfect analogy, but I liken it to X-Com's combat versus X-Com: Apocalypse's combat.

[Sarkus]

I loved a lot of the old turn-based combat RPG's, but the reality is that most of them don't hold up well. The great one's do, like Fallout or Jagged Alliance 2, but I certainly don't begrudge others having a dislike for the approach. It's a very gamey approach to things that exists primarily due to the limits of pen and paper gaming, not the limits of what a computer can do. Some people really enjoy those details, but the reality is that most don't want them.

If realtime/pause hybrid systems are what it takes to avoid a move to RPG's being purely either first-person realtime (Fallout 3, Oblivion) or clickfests (Diablo) then I'm more then happy to accept the hybrid. Plus, many of them allow you to create auto-pause points that correspond to the round (the IE games allowed this) so I don't see how anyone can complain that they are too different from what they remember from their P&P days.

[Quitch]

Wow, what? I guess this all just goes to show that there's no accounting for taste. I honestly didn't expect to see very many people defending IE combat, and I certainly didn't expect to see anyone dumping on Fallout's (by all accounts, I thought) excellent combat system.

By all accounts? I assume you haven't experienced it. Fallout has an incredibly fun perks and feats system, but the combat is dreadful. You can't see how far someone can move, including yourself (think Geneforge) and ranged combat takes place over the matter of a few feet. Every turn you're trying to move point-blank, score an insta-kill, then ensure no one else can get you point blank.

Terrible, terrible combat system. Not helped by dreadful AI to boot.

It's not that it hasn't aged well, it wasn't good even "back in the day". The combat (and AI) was the reason I never bought it back then after an otherwise excellent demo.

[balut]

If realtime/pause hybrid systems are what it takes to avoid a move to RPG's being purely either first-person realtime (Fallout 3, Oblivion) or clickfests (Diablo) then I'm more then happy to accept the hybrid. Plus, many of them allow you to create auto-pause points that correspond to the round (the IE games allowed this) so I don't see how anyone can complain that they are too different from what they remember from their P&P days.

I think the key difference for me is the I-Go/You-Go system of turn-based systems versus the We-Go system of the IE games. Even with the auto-pause points and manual pausing of a Real-Time-Pauseable system, it's still inherently a We-Go implementation. Sure, IG/YG is a more "gamey" implementation, but I see nothing wrong with a gamey system in a game.

Also, it's much more common to encounter "wasted actions" in an IE game than a turn-based game. You queue up actions, let them go, and then see that a critical hit from an archer kills the guy and wastes the spell in the process of being cast by the mage, or the melee guy kills the target and wastes the arrow being fired by the archer, etc.

[extarbags]

By all accounts? I assume you haven't experienced it. Fallout has an incredibly fun perks and feats system, but the combat is dreadful. You can't see how far someone can move, including yourself (think Geneforge) and ranged combat takes place over the matter of a few feet. Every turn you're trying to move point-blank, score an insta-kill, then ensure no one else can get you point blank.

Terrible, terrible combat system. Not helped by dreadful AI to boot.

It's not that it hasn't aged well, it wasn't good even "back in the day". The combat (and AI) was the reason I never bought it back then after an otherwise excellent demo.

Sorry, let me clarify: I loved the combat in both of the original Fallout games, and I've only very rarely heard of someone who didn't love it.

[Quitch]

Heh, I can't understand why anyone would like the combat in Fallout, I always thought it terrible.


So the system works when you play a lopsided party specifically designed to make it work? Oh, fantastic.

No, but as much-loved games they were played time-and-time again by players who learned how to game the system. In Baldur's Gate bows were incredibly powerful due to the number of close combat enemies and mega-powerful arrows. Later on your arrows were incredibly fast, near unlimited fireballs. Of course, bows were nearly useless in BG2 Shadows of Amn where spells (the really hardcore could setup contingencies which won fights once combat triggered) and magic long swords dominated, followed by Throne of Bhaal where nearly everything had magic resistance and it was back to the close combat tanks.

But really the combat in the games rock because you had such a vast range of spells, equipment and foes that you really could take different approaches to victory. There were fodder battles, mage battles, tough close combat battles and super-mages hidden away in easter-egg locations.

The combat shone more in BG2 than BG because low level D&D doesn't give you a whole lot to work with.

[Murbella]

Sorry, let me clarify: I loved the combat in both of the original Fallout games, and I've only very rarely heard of someone who didn't love it.

If i had 10 caps for every time sulik (insert dog here for fallout 1) got himself killed by a burst or the bartender killed me in a shotgun burst, i would be able to buy a run-down cargo ship.

[extarbags]

NPC AI != combat system.

[balut]

But really the combat in the games rock because you had such a vast range of spells, equipment and foes that you really could take different approaches to victory. There were fodder battles, mage battles, tough close combat battles and super-mages hidden away in easter-egg locations.

The combat shone more in BG2 than BG because low level D&D doesn't give you a whole lot to work with.

This argument has nothing to do with the IE engine itself, though. This can apply to ANY game with a similar range of spells, equipment, and foes.

[Roy Ziegler]

I prefer full control in real-time (FO3 or Bloodlines or Gothic) or turn-based (TOEE) compared to stuff like Baldur's Gate where it's real-time and you have to juggle 8 character's actions.


And while I think the combat in the first two Fallout games wasn't that great or strategic (compared to something like Jagged Alliance 2), and holy mother of god was the AI dumb, it was still really fun and entertaining.

[Quitch]

Then I would argue:

Fallout used turn-based badly. You were a single character with almost no options in a firefight beyond firing your gun. There was little to no cover, no movement speed variance, little range to the guns, no reactions during foes turns... your decisions during combat were almost non-existent beyond ensuring you weren't in a position to receive a burst point-blank.

Would BG have been better turn-based? I don't think so, you're adding downtime where none is needed. Why watch those five kobolds advance when I could watch them advance while firing my bow? Unless you're going to give me vast depths in the combat system and make it incredibly tactical then you're doing nothing but bog my game down by going turn-based. And by having auto-pause I can really adapt the pace to suit me, no RTS skills needed. Spell fires? Pause so I can queue something else... or not. My choice.

Jagged Alliance 2 works turn-based because it gives me multiple characters, multiple move speeds, multiple levels of aim, multiple types of fire, choices between weapons, no super close-combat critters, cover, reaction times, maps designed purely around fighting not path finding or adventuring...

[balut]

I'd argue that the options in Fallout combat consisted of distance, cover, target selection, and attack type selection. Could you game the system by charging and going for a close-up headshot? Yes. Are your tactics moot with the attainment of the uberweapons that can kill with a chest shot? Yes. But when you're armed with essentially a rifle, pistol, or smg, and you're generally outnumbered, positioning and target/shot selection do make a difference.

And a turn-based BG would still let you fire your bow as those kobolds advanced, it's just that you'd have to wait for the turn order to take the shot. In addition, it would also allow you to time the shots of your arrows and spells more accurately than the real-time implementation, and preclude the need to set up AI order buffers or auto-pause scripts to constantly adjust your party's actions. Instead, you would naturally react and order your characters accordingly when it is their turn.

[Quitch]

The turn-based system would have the kobolds come around the corner and hit me before I could switch from bow to sword, run away or shoot back (had I used all my action points). This is the flaw in turn-based, it doesn't model range Vs. close-combat well at all. If you stick with one you're fine, but mix them up and it becomes a big, fat mess.

How would I be timing them "more accurately"? I think you mean it lets me avoid overkill, but that's just because the nature of the system allows me to game it. In terms of "accuracy" I'd be timing them less accurately to account for the non-realtime reaction of my avatar, I naturally have to play a more cautious game because my avatar suddenly loses the ability to do something every so often, while monsters who fail to react to my multiple shots can suddenly cross great distances without me doing a thing. I can't advance on a corridor corner ready to fire unless your system implements reactions in the enemy turn (which Fallout didn't), so already your system is constraining me.

Why should I want my characters to have "a turn"?

[balut]

Ultimately, I think it really just boils down to the real-time versus turn-based argument. I have always preferred the turn-based combat style of an Ultima V, a Gold-Box game, an X-Com, a Jagged Alliance, a Fire Emblem, or a Final Fantasy Tactics over real-time combat games like Ultima VII or the Infinity Engine games.

[balut]

The turn-based system would have the kobolds come around the corner and hit me before I could switch from bow to sword, run away or shoot back (had I used all my action points). This is the flaw in turn-based, it doesn't model range Vs. close-combat well at all. If you stick with one you're fine, but mix them up and it becomes a big, fat mess.

How would I be timing them "more accurately"? I'd be timing them less accurately to account for the non-realtime reaction of my avatar. I can't advance on a corridor corner ready to fire unless your system implements reactions in the enemy turn (which Fallout didn't), so already your system is constraining me.

Why should I want my characters to have "a turn"?

Because you would know how far the enemy could move in a given turn, how to divide your actions between attack and movement, and that if you fire at a particular enemy or area, your attack will be attempted at that enemy or area where they are at that moment. If your spellcaster launches that fireball in the area between the kobolds, he knows if the spell is accurate that the splash will hit the kobolds. In a real-time implementation, by the time the spell is fired the kobolds may have moved in any direction or closed the distance to the point that the spell hits nothing. That's what I mean by "more accurate".

[Quitch]

Or "more static" and "less dynamic" and other negative words ;)

I can't really say that's a good or a bad thing, it's just a side-effect of the system.

I prefer real-time w/ pause for games like BG 2 because they don't need turn-based, it would slow them down without adding anything. I like turn-based for games like Jagged Alliance 2 because they have enough complexity that I prefer the more calculating nature of the play.

[balut]

Or "more static" and "less dynamic" and other negative words ;)

I can't really say that's a good or a bad thing, it's just a side-effect of the system.

True, but it also makes the vast array of spellcasting options available more frustrating to use. It may be more dynamic, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more enjoyable.

[Adam Altmann]

...and then you throw a dick in her...

So, I mean, I know this is completely juvenile and everything, but I read that part of your post and immediately thought "They should totally make that a minigame like the Madden 10 Fight for the Fumble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36C9f8b2rYE)."

[Murbella]

Balut: but you can pause to take all of the time in the world to pick which spell you want to use and exactly how you want to use it.

Adam: I believe they did that in one of the GTA games.

[JackBurton]

I was the one who posted impressions/video from GenCon several pages back. In a con setting, it was near impossible to hear audio or judge voice acting, but the writing that I was reading (although I was rushed) seemed pretty good. What I was trying to focus on in my reports is how fun the game is to play. These trailers make me cringe and wonder if it's just poorly chosen clips by the marketing department, or if Bioware's writing/VO quality has gone down the crapper. All I can report on is what I experienced - the actual gameplay was awesome, and truly seemed like a modern version of Infinity Engine goodness.

The portions where I was wandering dungeons, equipping items, fighting creatures, disarming traps, and actively playing were great enough for me to pre-order the game. Even if the cutscenes are all as bad as those posted above, I'll still be playing this on day one. It wouldn't be the first game with great gameplay and awful writing. It'd just be unexpected from Bioware.


I played it at NY Comic Con in Feb. I was somewhat underwhelmed by it. Perhaps it was the snippet they chose to let me play, but after playing it I didn't get that feeling of "holy shit I need to play this game". Maybe it was the lack of context to the demo, it was just a room in a dungeon, and I was hoping for a little storyline demo too and the ability to explore a city or some overland exploration.

Modern version of Infinity Engine is a good way to describe it though.

[Angie Gallant]

So, I mean, I know this is completely juvenile and everything, but I read that part of your post and immediately thought "They should totally make that a minigame like the Madden 10 Fight for the Fumble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36C9f8b2rYE)."

At least it would be funny!

[Bahimiron]

I really love Fallout. But, I think you're forgetting it's the system where you walk up to someone and shoot them in the eye repeatedly, at point blank range.

I'm genuinely saddened that I can't find a transcript of the angry NMA-esque response to Jeff Green's complaints about this very thing.

[Gendal]

A great deal of the praise here for IE combat is the breadth of spellcasting tactics involved, and not necessarily the real-time implementation. I just think it would work just as well, if not better, as a pure turn-based implementation. It would still provide the tactical spellcasting choices, but with an easier targeting/timing mechanic. It's not a perfect analogy, but I liken it to X-Com's combat versus X-Com: Apocalypse's combat.
Yes.

I absolutely understand the complaints about the IE combat, also see NWN 1 & 2. The real time phase system in these games actively detracted from the experience for me. The difference between giving commands and whether or not your character actually implemented them and if not why was a chasm of momentous size.

If you want to see it done well, but in an otherwise crappy game then go play Temple of Elemental Evil. It didn't bog down in the turns nor did it fall prey to the chaotic mess that is the real time phase system.

[Mordrak]

Is that Desslock's Hellgate London review score? Sometimes Adree's images are hard to interpret.

Was that ever confirmed as his score?

[Adree]

Was that ever confirmed as his score?

I cropped it out of a scan of the review.

[Hanacker]

Sorry, let me clarify: I loved the combat in both of the original Fallout games, and I've only very rarely heard of someone who didn't love it.

Fallout combat was awful. As evidenced by this thread there are quite a few of us who feel that way. Nice to meet you.

[Alistair]

I cropped it out of a scan of the review.
The artist at work.

[Stridergg]

If you want to see it done well, but in an otherwise crappy game then go play Temple of Elemental Evil. It didn't bog down in the turns nor did it fall prey to the chaotic mess that is the real time phase system.

As much as I loved ToEE's turn-based combat it DID bog down in the turns. Some of the easier fights would take forever to finish even though the outcome was clear from the begining. Still loved it though, was ToEE the last "major" truly turn-based RPG ever released?

The thing is turn-based combat is too slow for the today's crowd and we will probably not see another turn-based AAA RPG released any time soon. And given the choice between real-time and real-time with pause - and we are talking about party-based games - the choice is clear.

BTW, comparing combat in BG2 vs. Oblivion is stupid. The games are so differen. Whether you liked Oblivion's combat or not, it wouldn't work with 5 more people in your group anyway.

Well, at least we are not discussing trailers and marketing strategies anymore. :)

[Adam Sensoy]

Fallout combat was awful. As evidenced by this thread there are quite a few of us who feel that way. Nice to meet you.

Me too, in fact. I never finished either game because I found the combat hopelessly tedious.

[Rob_Merritt]

I never liked the combat in the orinal Fallout and Fallout 2 either. However most of the time, those games gave you ways to avoid as much combat as you wanted. With a few exceptions. I will say that the opening section of Fallout 2 was and still is soul draining. It still didn't prevent me from playing both multiple times.

[André Costa]

Fallout 1 and 2 are great games and RPGs but definately not because of the combat.

[Kalle]

Fallout combat was great. So there.

[Miramon]

I will say that the opening section of Fallout 2 was and still is soul draining. It still didn't prevent me from playing both multiple times.

That opening wasn't so bad the first time through, but yeah, it certainly interferes with any attempt to replay the game, especially when you can just wander around the desert and pick up some good weapons from the aftermath of a mafia-raider fight or for that matter just go south to pick up the power armor and plasma rifle....

[Jazar]

I loved Fallout 1 & 2's combat. Much more so then the Infinity Engine games.

[Khoram]

As much as I loved ToEE's turn-based combat it DID bog down in the turns. Some of the easier fights would take forever to finish even though the outcome was clear from the begining. Still loved it though, was ToEE the last "major" truly turn-based RPG ever released?

The thing is turn-based combat is too slow for the today's crowd and we will probably not see another turn-based AAA RPG released any time soon. And given the choice between real-time and real-time with pause - and we are talking about party-based games - the choice is clear.

BTW, comparing combat in BG2 vs. Oblivion is stupid. The games are so differen. Whether you liked Oblivion's combat or not, it wouldn't work with 5 more people in your group anyway.

Well, at least we are not discussing trailers and marketing strategies anymore. :)

It's not a "AAA RPG", but Knights of the Chalice (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=54168&highlight=Knights+of+the+Chalice) has a great, well-implemented turn based system that doesn't bog down at high levels.

[Stridergg]

It's not a "AAA RPG", but Knights of the Chalice (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=54168&highlight=Knights+of+the+Chalice) has a great, well-implemented turn based system that doesn't bog down at high levels.

Thanks, Khoram! I'll have to check it out.

[Tyrion]

The thing is turn-based combat is too slow for the today's crowd and we will probably not see another turn-based AAA RPG released any time soon. And given the choice between real-time and real-time with pause - and we are talking about party-based games - the choice is clear.
I can understand why you'd say your first statement, because it's a common sentiment among WRPG developers, but it's completely wrong. Take a look at the JRPG market for ample evidence. Most of the leading JRPG series--Final Fantasy, Shin Megami Tensei, Dragon Quest, and not least, Pokemon--all have stuck with turn-based systems aside from some relatively unsuccessful forays into real-time gameplay. Pound for pound, turn-based RPGs do better than real-time RPGs. There are a lot of reasons why this might be the case. One of the big ones is that turn-based gameplay is significantly easier to learn than an equivalent real-time system; you have no time pressure, easier-to-process visual feedback since the chaos of real-time is absent, and a much easier time of controlling multiple characters at once.

It's quite possible that WRPG developers won't release a turn-based AAA RPG any time soon, but that's because of their own incorrect evaluation of the market, not because a turn-based AAA RPG is too slow for today's crowd.

[Murbella]

Tyrion, i think it is more a difference in the markets than in the developers (although i'm not an expert of course so sorry if i'm wrong). Those same jrpgs you mention aren't too popular on these boards for example (which is sad since i love them). The turn based mechanics in the games mentioned are also significantly different than those in games like TOEE too.

[quatoria]

I loved Fallout 1 & 2's combat. Much more so then the Infinity Engine games.

Same here. Then again, I also loved Silent Storm and Jagged Alliance, and X-Com, so I'm a pretty die-hard fan of turn-based strategic combat.

[Jason McMaster]

Same here. Then again, I also loved Silent Storm and Jagged Alliance, and X-Com, so I'm a pretty die-hard fan of turn-based strategic combat.

Silent Storm is one of the best turn based games ever made. It's a real shame that game didn't do better.

[Quitch]

Whether you liked Oblivion's combat or not, it wouldn't work with 5 more people in your group anyway.

Make it ranged combat and I don't see why not, and I suspect it's coming.

[Tim James]

I missed this thread for a few days and enjoyed the RPG combat discussion. It helped me reflect on a few of my own preferences, especially the points about when each system becomes tedious since I don't have a lot of patience for that with my large classic games backlog.

I agree that turn-based combat is too slow for easy encounters, and would like to add to the recent JRPG discussion that if most of your game is painfully slow one-sided encounters designed to attrit your party between save points or major battles, then you can go to hell and die. I'm sure many JRPGs effectively avoid this but I've been slogging through the freeware Last Scenario, and even got annoyed by it in King's Bounty. Compare that to ToEE and even Throne of Bhaal where most of the battles were large set piece affairs with some tactics that go beyond "take as little damage as possible."

For the IE games I ran into the same flaws everyone described with melee, frantic clicking and pausing to try to attain perfect optimum, and timing spells or other actions in the periodic but obscured trigger to start each new round (lack of immediacy). Still came away with a somewhat positive impression even playing it in 2008, although again that was with ToB. KOTOR I remember liking more because easily queueing up actions meant I could blitz through basic encounters, and there was less going without 20 wizards using spell triggers.

I can't judge the mechanics of Fallout because the surrounding atmosphere is too great for me. I would play any system if it meant the end result was blasting a raider's head apart. (Okay, I might draw the line at QTEs.) I'm just now realizing they were trying to go for the same dirt-simple-but-rewarding system in Fallout 3, though I didn't enjoy it as much because of the engine and presentation.

I guess the question is whether Dragon Age is going to learn any lessons from this vast mountain of experience or struggle with the same design problems.

[Rock8man]

Yeah, I agree that KOTOR's system was a lot more satisfying because even though it was still essentially the same underlying system as the Infinity Engine games, there was more visual feedback, as well as visual feedback on what you're queuing up. Being able to queue up actions, and see with a quick glance what you've queued up (because actions are represented by easy to recognize icons) was a big deal. It adds to the feeling of being in control and knowing what you've ordered your character to do.

I also thought the lower third-person perspective added a lot too, because it is easier to tell what your characters are doing when you're close up to the action instead of far above them.

On JRPGs and consoles: It is funny isn't it, that Western RPG developers seem to have abandoned turn-based fights, while consoles are now the big home for turn-based RPGs. It almost makes me want to get a Nintendo DS, just so that I can check out how the turn-based battles play out on that machine.

[Murbella]

People really thought kotor gave them more control? I loved the kotor games but they felt exactly like nwn (not a bad thing) in that i had more control over the central character and less over the other characters i wasn't directly controlling. While bg2 let me easily issue orders to my party, kotor mainly had me queuing up some actions for my party members and then focusing on my main character.

oh and in my opinion the turn based rpgs i've played on ds do play out quite well. The semi recent devil summoner was quite fun, although i do wish more games would use the stylus rather than just tacking it on as an inferior control to the buttons. Quite a number of them too, although i haven't played most.

[Tim James]

People really thought kotor gave them more control?Ugh, you have to be very careful with the words and check the context. Rock8man said the "feeling of control" and tried to explain that in another post (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=1888197&postcount=1420). You're 2 pages behind.

We're discussing subtleties that go beyond whether you can mechanically click your mans to do something. Flow might be a better term.

Back to the JRPG thing: I've been out of consoles and those genres for a decade now. Do any recent games concentrate on nice big set piece battles that make their systems tactical, or at least do the frequent minor battles in a faster and more rewarding way?

[Njal]

In the persona games (3 and 4 at least) you can avoid the trash mobs if you want to and the boss battles all have some strategy. You still have to kill enough trash mobs to be at a suitable level though.

The boss battles themselves aren't nearly as tactical as a good BG2 battle but the story is quite good and makes up for it.

[roguefrog]

Take ToEE's combat and Arcanum's quest/systems/open world. Game Over.

[Tim James]

Take ToEE's combat and Arcanum's quest/systems/open world. Game Over.Yes, yes, we all miss Troika's contributions to the western RPG genre, and of course they'd need a few more years to fix the bugs, etc.

[Miramon]

Take ToEE's combat and Arcanum's quest/systems/open world. Game Over.

I disliked both games. ToEE ground my machine to a halt trying to run a large combat; in fact walking too close to a large enemy room made the game slow even out of combat from the far side of a wall. There was no depth or sense to the setting or story, either, but it was just the badness and buggyness of the engine implementation more than anything else that got to me.

I got hugely frustrated with Arcanum just trying to get my characters from one side of the screen to another, as the movement speed was very slow, and the game seemed to love sending me back and forth across maps all the time. The Arcanum setting was fine, but the character class balance was way off. Still, it was a better effort than ToEE.

I liked Icewind Dale much better than either of the above for tactical play despite the smaller scale of most of the combats. I imagine it would be pretty painful to replay today, though.

[Roy Ziegler]

Take ToEE's combat and Arcanum's quest/systems/open world. Game Over.

For your company, yeah.






ZING!

[Murbella]

arcanum was a fun and unique game, but it also served to showcase the bad sides of both real time and turn based. It has been so long since i played it, but the game was balanced in such a way that you were nearly forced to use turn based for melee and real time for ranged (it might have been the other way around, too long). If you didn't use the right mechanic, it severely reduced the power of your character.

[unbongwah]

It's quite possible that WRPG developers won't release a turn-based AAA RPG any time soon, but that's because of their own incorrect evaluation of the market, not because a turn-based AAA RPG is too slow for today's crowd.
AFAIK, turn-based JRPGs are only a niche market in the West compared to how popular they are in Japan. Final Fantasy is the only major exception I can think of and even its sales in the U.S. pale in comparison to the latest Madden or CoD (to say nothing of the Wii juggernaut). There are enough JRPG fans in the U.S. to keep companies like Atlus and NIS in business, but they're small potatoes among publishers. Doesn't exactly sounds like an "incorrect evaluation of the (U.S.) market" to me, though I'd love to see a Western RPG designer prove me wrong.

[balut]

Gladius should've sold so much better than it did. :(

[Quitch]

Yeah, I agree that KOTOR's system was a lot more satisfying because even though it was still essentially the same underlying system as the Infinity Engine games, there was more visual feedback, as well as visual feedback on what you're queuing up. Being able to queue up actions, and see with a quick glance what you've queued up (because actions are represented by easy to recognize icons) was a big deal. It adds to the feeling of being in control and knowing what you've ordered your character to do.

The problem I had, and it was a big problem, was that feedback was rubbish. Was that the dodge or damage animation? Did that red number come off my guy or theirs? Where's the combat log? Oh, there isn't one.

The queue was a nice idea, though clunky. Why did I have to remove from the right? Why could I not see queued actions between enemies? Why non-aggressive actions enter the queue but not trigger the queue display?

The battles in KOTOR look nice, but damn does it feel clunky after the IE games.

[Murbella]

The problem I had, and it was a big problem, was that feedback was rubbish. Was that the dodge or damage animation? Did that red number come off my guy or theirs? Where's the combat log? Oh, there isn't one.

The queue was a nice idea, though clunky. Why did I have to remove from the right? Why could I not see queued actions between enemies? Why non-aggressive actions enter the queue but not trigger the queue display?

The battles in KOTOR look nice, but damn does it feel clunky after the IE games.

It has been a while and i may be thinking of the 2nd one, but wasn't there a combat log you could open with a keybinding. It wasn't open by default from what i remember though.

[Quitch]

I haven't reached the second one. My graphics card in my desktop died so I'm on my laptop beating down the backlog.

I must be the only RPGer in the world not gripped by Fallout (which I was expecting to love), so I'm on KOTOR. I don't like the idea of 'opening' the combat log, unless I could keep it open without getting in the way, exactly like I could in BG2.

KOTOR currently feels like one of those games you get when a genre clumsily lurches into the world of 3D. Everything just feels a bit "meh".

[balut]

Good game design shouldn't require a combat log to figure out what's going on in battle.

[ydejin]

Yeah, I agree that KOTOR's system was a lot more satisfying because even though it was still essentially the same underlying system as the Infinity Engine games, there was more visual feedback, as well as visual feedback on what you're queuing up. Being able to queue up actions, and see with a quick glance what you've queued up (because actions are represented by easy to recognize icons) was a big deal. It adds to the feeling of being in control and knowing what you've ordered your character to do.
I found KotOR combat completely unsatisfying, and much worse compared to BG 1&2. If I were to take a guess as to why I would say (1) the 3rd person viewpoint gives less of a strategic view than the 3/4 viewpoint used by the IE engine, (2) only 3 characters in KotOR gives less strategic options, (3) Kotor console and control scheme made it awkward to place people in the exact location where I wanted them, whereas the IE engine made it very easy to place people, and (4) KotOR had fewer combat options available, and even once Force Powers were introduced the KotOR combat options were far less interesting than DnD spell options.

I never finished either KotOR in large part because I found the combat very boring.

[roguefrog]

I got one better -- Planescape: Torment's focused dialog checks/characters with ToEE's Combat blended with Fallout's leveling system/open world.

[rowe33]

I got one better -- Planescape: Torment's focused dialog checks/characters with ToEE's Combat blended with Fallout's leveling system/open world.

Does this include Dragon Age's extremely realistic average female breast size?

[Murbella]

Does this include Dragon Age's extremely realistic average female breast size?

No, it included the more realistic champions online default setting.

[Tyrion]

AFAIK, turn-based JRPGs are only a niche market in the West compared to how popular they are in Japan. Final Fantasy is the only major exception I can think of and even its sales in the U.S. pale in comparison to the latest Madden or CoD (to say nothing of the Wii juggernaut). There are enough JRPG fans in the U.S. to keep companies like Atlus and NIS in business, but they're small potatoes among publishers. Doesn't exactly sounds like an "incorrect evaluation of the (U.S.) market" to me, though I'd love to see a Western RPG designer prove me wrong.
Keep in mind:
1) Even within the JRPG market in NA, turn-based games have outsold real-time games (Kingdom Hearts is the only outlier, I think). Any weaknesses in demand are because the games are JRPGs, not because they're turn-based.
2) The turn-based Final Fantasy games have outsold Madden and CoD. I wouldn't be surprised if FF13 did the same.
3) Pokemon sales destroy Madden and Call of Duty sales, and any claim that the NA JRPG market is niche.

Again, I can totally understand the perception of turn-based RPGs being niche, but it just isn't the case by any measure. High-profile turn-based WRPGs only don't do well because, well, there aren't any.