Dragon Age Countdown...

[z22]

The combat video reminded me that I much prefer tactical turn-based combat over real-time. The real-time combats look great, but games with true and only tactical turn-based combats engage and entertain me more. I really love the feeling of winning a nice tactical battle, on a map with squares or hexes. It's just more gamey and thus fun for me.

[greg wak]

Then let me further contextualize things for you by pointing out that we were discussing a video of combat animations with a little bit of facial retardation thrown in. You realize that you're coming in on the tail end of people talking about a video specifically about those things and telling people that they're not important? Maybe if we were reading a script we could discuss the dialogue and storyline at length, but we're not. We're watching a video.

I was never trying to tell anyone they aren't important. I was trying to say that while the video looked a bit clumsy at times, I didn't think it was bad enough to stop me from enjoying the game. Of course, ymmv.

[frank austin]

I was never trying to tell anyone they aren't important. I was trying to say that while the video looked a bit clumsy at times, I didn't think it was bad enough to stop me from enjoying the game. Of course, ymmv.

Was responding to Tyrion, sorry. Should've quoted him.

[Anaxagoras]

It's meta. If you scroll back a few pages I think you'll spot the spot.


Yeah... I read that. It still doesn't jibe (thanks LK!) with this thread. Most people here didn't like ME, and Jade Empire got a lukewarm reception, but other Bioware products are almost universally loved. In fact, within this very thread people have praised Bioware products. And they've cursed other ones. It's almost like people are discussing individual games, rather than developers. Which is why your "meta" post didn't make any sense. And still doesn't.

[Spam]

Eh, perhaps you are correct. It's quite possible I've noticed the criticism of Mass Effect in other threads, and here, more than the other games you mentioned since I have precisely zero personal interest in them. Likewise the criticism directed towards ME doubtless seems harsher and more personal for the same reason. But I don't think so. :)

[Desslock]

They have a small impact, but they didn't seem to harm the narrative quality of Mask of the Betrayer, KOTOR1/2... or any number of other dialogue-heavy games with inferior (or no) facial animations.

The Dragon Age facial animations in that clip are far more annoying than any in those other games.

[frank austin]

The Dragon Age facial animations in that clip are far more annoying than any in those other games.

Which is okay, because it's an RPG. Or something.

[Joe M.]

Yeah, I much prefer my facial animations completely unsynced from whatever the voice actors are saying. These are merely mostly unsynced, which totally ruins it for me.

[Tyrion]

If the game turns out to be great aside from the facial animations, I sure hope the gaming public doesn't feel the same way you guys seem to. Frankly I'd rather have development resources spent on gameplay content rather than animation, otherwise most WRPGs are going to end up like Mass Effect--great production values lavished on sparse and repetitive content.

Then again, maybe fixing this isn't something that's resource intensive, and it's just sloppiness on Bioware's end.

[Wallapuctus]

Yeah, I much prefer my facial animations completely unsynced from whatever the voice actors are saying. These are merely mostly unsynced, which totally ruins it for me.

Just pretend the faces are synced to the original Japanese dialogue. ¬_¬

[frank austin]

Yes, Tyrion. That's very reasonable. Our attitude certainly is responsible for the inevitable decline of WRPGs. Or, you know, we're just talking about bad facial animation in a video. Sheesh.

[Tyrion]

Yes, Tyrion. That's very reasonable. Our attitude certainly is responsible for the inevitable decline of WRPGs. Or, you know, we're just talking about bad facial animation in a video. Sheesh.
Yeah, I got that...and I've just been talking about how that facial animation isn't a big deal (obviously others are free to disagree). I'm not quite sure why that's apparently offending you. The notion that certain game elements are generally considered more or less important in certain genres isn't exactly controversial.

[frank austin]

I already pointed this out: It's "offending" me because we were watching a video that was plot/dialogue light and mostly a showing off of the animations. What else do you expect people to talk about? It's not like there hasn't already been a dialogue about the Generic Fantasy Setting that is DA:O.

[frank austin]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1104

Interesting preview at Shacknews. Some of my favorite bits:


With the game paused, the player took control of the warrior Sten, using an ability that made him invulnerable to earthquakes. Taking control of the sorceress Morganna, the player cast an earthquake spell in a forward area. This allowed Sten to take point during the invasion, taunting incoming enemies while encircled by a protective earthquake.

Must be a lot of earthquakes in DA:O if warriors have an ability to make them invulnerable to it. That's kind of a silly synergy.


But by far the most troubling aspect of the demonstration was the serious lack of engaging dialogue. This was made apparent early on, as a conversation between your party and the drunken blacksmith played out in painfully slow fashion.

As much a fan of 1990s RPGs as I am, the genre has made some progress since then. Not much, but some. BioWare's own spacey RPG Mass Effect represented one small step forward for storytelling with its dialogue engine, which allowed players to quickly select responses ahead of time to better mimic the flow of an actual conversation.

Dragon Age is using pieces of the Mass Effect dialogue engine, but the seamless exchanges of that system have been discarded. In their place are traditional full-sentence response options, with a few cute camera angles as the NPC responds to your response. As strange as it sounds, it's not as responsive as it should be. And if you're not into monologues delivered by foppish elves and other stock fantasy characters, it's going to get tiresome.

Not sounding good, here.


In the end, the effectiveness of all these systems will largely depend on how interesting the quests are. And another worry is that, so far, not a single dialogue exchange or quest scenario I've seen has exceeded its core cliche. While a realistic take on sci-fi lent a novel feel to Mass Effect, a realistic take on fantasy has done just the opposite for Dragon Age.

Calls of a generic, Lord of the Rings-inspired exercise do not seem far off. BioWare is in danger of using its "spiritual sequel" label as an excuse to sell predictable, by-the-numbers quests, and dialogue that would be better left in a text box. Like figures on a D&D board, every piece of "dark realistic fantasy" is in its right place--but the game master appears to be on autopilot.

And more negativity. Yikes. Looks like Bioware's going to have to pick things up before the fall.

[Mordrak]

Mass Effect was a realistic take on sci-fi?

[Sarkus]

At least they had some fun with things today:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragonage/video/6207185/?tag=topslot;img;1

[mkozlows]

Yes, Tyrion. That's very reasonable. Our attitude certainly is responsible for the inevitable decline of WRPGs. Or, you know, we're just talking about bad facial animation in a video. Sheesh.

Voice-acting has already done plenty of damage to the RPG; adding high-quality animation just makes it that much worse.

Look at a game like Saint Planescape of the Torment. Loaded with text. Tons and tons of text. If they'd had to voice record all that, it'd've been impossible. If they had to voice record it and make elaborate, well-animated cinematics for all the conversations, with properly dramatic angles and facial expressions, it'd've been ultra-double impossible.

I love high production values, and I'm thrilled that games like Mass Effect can have superb production values in conjunction with a pretty solid amount of dialogue and story; but if every game can't be Mass Effect, I'd rather they had the dialogue and story instead of the cinematic look.

[Mordrak]

At least they had some fun with things today:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragonage/video/6207185/?tag=topslot;img;1

Wow, they finally got out of the uncanny valley. I totally think those are real people.

[Aeon221]

Voice-acting has already done plenty of damage to the RPG; adding high-quality animation just makes it that much worse.

Look at a game like Saint Planescape of the Torment. Loaded with text. Tons and tons of text. If they'd had to voice record all that, it'd've been impossible. If they had to voice record it and make elaborate, well-animated cinematics for all the conversations, with properly dramatic angles and facial expressions, it'd've been ultra-double impossible.

I love high production values, and I'm thrilled that games like Mass Effect can have superb production values in conjunction with a pretty solid amount of dialogue and story; but if every game can't be Mass Effect, I'd rather they had the dialogue and story instead of the cinematic look.

The worst case scenario is obviously the one where poor animation meets trite and cliched dialog.

[Staff Sergeant]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1104

Interesting preview at Shacknews. Some of my favorite bits:



Must be a lot of earthquakes in DA:O if warriors have an ability to make them invulnerable to it. That's kind of a silly synergy.



Not sounding good, here.



And more negativity. Yikes. Looks like Bioware's going to have to pick things up before the fall.

According to 1up's preview (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3173524&p=1), the fighter guy is immune to being knocked down, not immune to earthquakes. How is it a silly synergy? Abilities that prevent FF from area effect spells while you are fighting in the midst of the enemies sound kind of cool to me. Makes more sense than the power just not hitting you for no reason other than that you are allies.

[frank austin]

"Immune to Earthquakes" + "Earthquake" is kind of silly. If it's "immune to knockdown" that's different.

[Dhruin]

I can't judge the quality of the dialogue from here but I'm not paying much attention to the several previews that complain about it not "progressing" the dialogue system, like Mass Effect. As well as that worked in ME, there are numerous issues with that system that don't fit the direction of Dragon Age.

[olaf]

The combat video reminded me that I much prefer tactical turn-based combat over real-time. The real-time combats look great, but games with true and only tactical turn-based combats engage and entertain me more. I really love the feeling of winning a nice tactical battle, on a map with squares or hexes. It's just more gamey and thus fun for me.

Me too. And it just seems like this is never going to be in an A list type game ever again.

[Royal Fool]

The executive producer of Dragon Age: Origins is leaving BioWare...

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23303


Dan Tudge, who managed the teams behind BioWare's Sonic Chronicles and the upcoming Dragon Age, has parted ways with the renowned RPG developer to join Disney Interactive Studios.

Tudge will be joining DIS subsidiary Propaganda Games as VP and general manager of the Vancouver, British Columbia-based studio.

[...]

BioWare told Gamasutra in an e-mail that studio vet Mark Darrah has assumed the role of executive producer on Dragon Age: Origins. Over the course of his career, Darrah has worked on games including Sonic Chronicles, Neverwinter Nights and the original Baldur's Gate.

[Charles]

I wonder if Mark Darrah is still batshit insane.

[belgerog]

Voice-acting has already done plenty of damage to the RPG; adding high-quality animation just makes it that much worse.

I love high production values, and I'm thrilled that games like Mass Effect can have superb production values in conjunction with a pretty solid amount of dialogue and story; but if every game can't be Mass Effect, I'd rather they had the dialogue and story instead of the cinematic look.

Even Mass Effect didn't have much content compared to, say, baldur's gate 2. The game was very good because of the production values and because the main quest was pretty good, however, the main quest was pretty much the only thing worth playing.

I don't think production values are a bad thing, on the contrary, Mass Effect had amazing stuff, but I think a balance must be found, and I don't think this was the case for Mass Effect, for me it was clear that there was a lot of wasted potential.

Obviously it's hard not to spend a lot of resources on good production values because that's sometimes needed to give your game some visibility and allow it to compete with other games, and it's also obvious that it's much harder to create as much content for a modern, well produced game as for an isometric 3D rpg, but I think ME was too much oriented towards production values. I hope ME2 adds a lot more content.

I'm not in the industry so these are all assumptions. So I've also been wanting to ask something to people who actually know how game production works. Baldur's Gate 2 had a lot of content, but not just in terms of story, I have the impression that it had a ton of art in it too, and IMO, good quality art assets (the environments especially). So, is it that much more costly to produce the art assets for a game like Mass Effect? I assume making a high res model might take more time than drawing the 2D art, but still, BG2 had incredibly detailed assets, and they were many and varied.

But even assuming art and animations are less detailed in order to allow for more content, creating the technology for a game like ME must be resource heavy, so actually it might be good to point out that it's not only the cinematic look that prevents the game from having a lot of content.

[Sarkus]

Even Mass Effect didn't have much content compared to, say, baldur's gate 2. The game was very good because of the production values and because the main quest was pretty good, however, the main quest was pretty much the only thing worth playing.

I don't think production values are a bad thing, on the contrary, Mass Effect had amazing stuff, but I think a balance must be found, and I don't think this was the case for Mass Effect, for me it was clear that there was a lot of wasted potential.

Obviously it's hard not to spend a lot of resources on good production values because that's sometimes needed to give your game some visibility and allow it to compete with other games, and it's also obvious that it's much harder to create as much content for a modern, well produced game as for an isometric 3D rpg, but I think ME was too much oriented towards production values. I hope ME2 adds a lot more content.

I'm not in the industry so these are all assumptions. So I've also been wanting to ask something to people who actually know how game production works. Baldur's Gate 2 had a lot of content, but not just in terms of story, I have the impression that it had a ton of art in it too, and IMO, good quality art assets (the environments especially). So, is it that much more costly to produce the art assets for a game like Mass Effect? I assume making a high res model might take more time than drawing the 2D art, but still, BG2 had incredibly detailed assets, and they were many and varied.

But even assuming art and animations are less detailed in order to allow for more content, creating the technology for a game like ME must be resource heavy, so actually it might be good to point out that it's not only the cinematic look that prevents the game from having a lot of content.

From what I understand art is a big drain on resources and time. Games using new tech or a new engine tend to be shorter and have less content unless they are given a longer then average development time. BG2 used a stable, well established engine and tools that were polished, so they were able to create bigger and deeper content. Based on those factors, ME2 should have more to offer while Dragon Age might be a bit disappointing. For example, they've already revealed that while they are offering multiple race/class origins, there isn't going to be a human commoner origin because they ran out of time to put it together.

[unbongwah]

The executive producer of Dragon Age: Origins is leaving BioWare...
Leaving Bioware to work for the company which did the last Turok game?

Is he being punished for something?

I wonder if Mark Darrah is still batshit insane.
Would that be a pro or con?

For example, they've already revealed that while they are offering multiple race/class origins, there isn't going to be a human commoner origin because they ran out of time to put it together.
No matter how many origins they did, someone would complain that they didn't do n+1.

[frank austin]

So, in an effort to keep my local fantasy/sci-fi bookstore afloat, I went in and bought a bunch of stuff yesterday, some of which bordered on downright silly. One of those things was the Dragon Age tie-in novel. As one of the folks who thinks the game's setting looks less than engaging, I will be sure to report back here if the book changes my mind.

Also, if you live in the Bay Area, go to Other Change of Hobbit in Berkeley and give them some dollars.

[Sarkus]

No matter how many origins they did, someone would complain that they didn't do n+1.

Yeah, but its an odd one of leave out and the origins are more then just some labels on your character. They are supposed to have impacts throughout the game. And it wasn't like they didn't intend to do it, its that their plan for it wasn't working the way they wanted and they didn't have time change it.


One of those things was the Dragon Age tie-in novel. As one of the folks who thinks the game's setting looks less than engaging, I will be sure to report back here if the book changes my mind.


Good luck. I'm having a hard time finishing it.

[sam16]

For example, they've already revealed that while they are offering multiple race/class origins, there isn't going to be a human commoner origin because they ran out of time to put it together.

From developer posts, it looks like they started the human commoner origin as a Luke Skywalker/Farm Boy rises to greatness type story and then scrapped it because it was too close to a Chosen One scenario.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

Executive producer bails for Turok studio (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/dragon-age-producer-moves-to-disney), which makes me wonder: If working at some specialist FPS studio under the Disney brand is more exciting than working on Dragon Age, how exciting is it going to be to play it?

The previews I've read so far have been restrained in their praise, both GamesTM and Edge criticizing the simplistic morale system, the MMO-like fetch quests and the generic setting. Perhaps Bioware is about to deliver their first real dud under the careful guidance of their new, corporate overlords?

</speculation>

[Rob_Merritt]

Naaa... First off, executive producers are only important at the beginning of a project, towards the end, they end up being cheerleaders and coffee suppliers. Also I've heard that Bioware isn't the best paying place. I imagine that Disney is better funded and the pay might be higher.

[mkozlows]

The previews I've read so far have been restrained in their praise, both GamesTM and Edge criticizing the simplistic morale system, the MMO-like fetch quests and the generic setting. Perhaps Bioware is about to deliver their first real dud under the careful guidance of their new, corporate overlords?


Oblivion had tons of fetch quests, a generic setting, and no morale system (or indeed party) at all. If the game is bad, it'll take more than that to make it so.

[Equisilus]

Yep, it's going to take a look at how the package works as a whole to decide if the game is going to be a success or not. I think it a good idea to restrain enthusiasm but claiming "dud" at this stage is premature.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

Well, I thought Oblivion was absolute cack, so I suppose my RPG taste is a bit ... different. How can you let yourself sink into a world so utterly devoid of character? To me, the world and setting is the primary draw of a good RPG, and I've had it with elves and orcs.

I guess Dragon Age isn't for me, then. And I strongly doubt they will manage to conjure up the Baldur's Gate feel when they can't rely on Forgotten Realms as a source of lore. Half the magic of Baldur's Gate was all the expectations associated with the setting.

[Miramon]

I guess Dragon Age isn't for me, then. And I strongly doubt they will manage to conjure up the Baldur's Gate feel when they can't rely on Forgotten Realms as a source of lore. Half the magic of Baldur's Gate was all the expectations associated with the setting.

FWIW, I know nothing at all about Forgotten Realms, and still liked Baldur's Gate. Dwarves and elves and so on are certainly tedious and trite, but in the end execution is everything, and when you can come up with a character like Minsc you get a lot of slack in other areas. My problem is I don't expect all that great an execution, as I think BG2 is the last Bioware product I really liked.

[Adam B]

Count me into the "didn't know shit about the Realms and loved BG" group. How Miramon didn't love KOTOR is a mystery, though.

Dragon Age is more than likely going to sink or swim on the strength of its characters. BG had great NPCs, as did KOTOR, whereas I felt that the NPCs in Mass Effect were much flatter (though Sheppard is probably the best implementation of a player-mutable main character to date).

I haven't seen enough of the characters in Dragon Age to have much to say about it one way or the other. The world sounds cool, though, and the combat is pretty sweet.

[Aeon221]

Well, I thought Oblivion was absolute cack, so I suppose my RPG taste is a bit ... different. How can you let yourself sink into a world so utterly devoid of character? To me, the world and setting is the primary draw of a good RPG, and I've had it with elves and orcs.


It's funny that you use Oblivion as your example of a game that over saturates you with elves and orcs.

If you wanted to complain about Oblivion having a fairly monotonous landscape, cool, I can deal with that -- although that issue was dealt with in Shivering Isles. Excessive numbers of castles? Ok, fine, even I got tired of them. A lack of meaningful decisions? Sure. Bad voice acting and crappy face models? Absolutely.

But generic? In the sense that it too goes with the swords and sorcery angle, maybe. But, really, the coolest thing about Oblivion and the other Elder Scrolls games is how well Bethsoft interleaves a unique and fairly complex mythos with their intricate sandbox gameworld.

But elves and orcs? Really? In a game where they're outnumbered by cat and lizard people? Not the complaint I expected.

[Miramon]

Count me into the "didn't know shit about the Realms and loved BG" group. How Miramon didn't love KOTOR is a mystery, though.

For the record, I thought the party characters were quite good, but the combat gameplay was weak as the milieu doesn't fit D20 system at all and was badly unbalanced against guns to boot;also it was just way too easy. The morality alignment system was implemented very badly with the dark side being infantile and self-destructive and not villainous or self-serving. I must admit that portrayal of the dark side is consistent with the recent film trilogy, but it's inane nevertheless.

[unbongwah]

Agreed: I want to play Vader, not Darth Jerkface.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

It's funny that you use Oblivion as your example of a game that over saturates you with elves and orcs.

If you wanted to complain about Oblivion having a fairly monotonous landscape, cool, I can deal with that -- although that issue was dealt with in Shivering Isles. Excessive numbers of castles? Ok, fine, even I got tired of them. A lack of meaningful decisions? Sure. Bad voice acting and crappy face models? Absolutely.

But generic? In the sense that it too goes with the swords and sorcery angle, maybe. But, really, the coolest thing about Oblivion and the other Elder Scrolls games is how well Bethsoft interleaves a unique and fairly complex mythos with their intricate sandbox gameworld.

But elves and orcs? Really? In a game where they're outnumbered by cat and lizard people? Not the complaint I expected.
Maybe it's because I played Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind and had gotten somewhat fed up by Bethesda's thorough but generic world-building. I was sort of past the point where the cat people and the lizard folk had any "wow" factor, and their pantheon always struck me as renamed Greek gods (Dibella, Goddess of beauty; Akatosh, the God of Wisdom and Air; bladiblablabla) while renaming your demons Daedras hardly wins you any points for originality. The game's lore may be thorough, but it's hardly anything I've never seen before, and even though renaming weekdays, months, moon phases and so on gives your world a certain sense of integrity, the lazy sorta-kinda-European-sounding names and all the constant reminders that this was essentially a hotchpotch of various mythologies, D&D and traditional Tolkienesque fare ... I don't know. I guess I grew out of it.

I don't know precisely what happened, but most of the magic went out of Fantasy for me after the LOTR adaptations. I guess revisiting that world and being so incredibly engulfed in it because of the massive hype made me realize that the reason why I liked Fantasy so much in the first place was because it was sort of mine. And suddenly, because of LOTR, it wasn't.

[mkozlows]

To me, the world and setting is the primary draw of a good RPG, and I've had it with elves and orcs.

I guess Dragon Age isn't for me, then. And I strongly doubt they will manage to conjure up the Baldur's Gate feel when they can't rely on Forgotten Realms as a source of lore. Half the magic of Baldur's Gate was all the expectations associated with the setting.

If you're burnt out on generic fantasy, yeah, probably not for you. Me, I'm jonesing for it. Bioware's last RPGs have been SF, chinoiserie, and Star Wars. It's about time to get some classic fantasy again.

As for BG2 only being good because of the Forgotten Realms, I don't think so. Both NWNs use the same setting, but both of them feel dull and lifeless compared to BG2. FR is a nice generic fantasy setting -- it has the same sort of accreted depth as, say, the Marvel Universe -- but good writing can make a setting, and bad writing can kill it.

[Miramon]

Maybe it's because I played Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind and had gotten somewhat fed up by Bethesda's thorough but generic world-building.

Yeah, it's very dull stuff. I generally read through the lore text and listen to cut scenes and all that jazz, but for this Bethesda series I couldn't bear it. I admit I didn't play Oblivion at all; Morrowind was too dull and seemingly random for me to take.

[extarbags]

That's weird; Morrowind always struck me as a pretty interesting setting, in terms of the variety of different cultures on the island, the politics going on within and among them, each group having its own culture/architecture/customs, etc.

Oblivion actually felt a lot more bland and generic to me in comparison.

[Aeon221]

Maybe it's because I played Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind and had gotten somewhat fed up by Bethesda's thorough but generic world-building. I was sort of past the point where the cat people and the lizard folk had any "wow" factor, and their pantheon always struck me as renamed Greek gods (Dibella, Goddess of beauty; Akatosh, the God of Wisdom and Air; bladiblablabla) while renaming your demons Daedras hardly wins you any points for originality. The game's lore may be thorough, but it's hardly anything I've never seen before, and even though renaming weekdays, months, moon phases and so on gives your world a certain sense of integrity, the lazy sorta-kinda-European-sounding names and all the constant reminders that this was essentially a hotchpotch of various mythologies, D&D and traditional Tolkienesque fare ... I don't know. I guess I grew out of it.

I don't know precisely what happened, but most of the magic went out of Fantasy for me after the LOTR adaptations. I guess revisiting that world and being so incredibly engulfed in it because of the massive hype made me realize that the reason why I liked Fantasy so much in the first place was because it was sort of mine. And suddenly, because of LOTR, it wasn't.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1Lb7Q0-lceo/SUKsvu0sYpI/AAAAAAAAANA/xyiuBae38u8/s320/bbkhajiitfemale.jpg

Oblivion just isn't a sensible target for bitching about non-human/elf/orc racial options. The rest of your post is asking for the impossible -- there's no way someone can come up with a completely unique mythos for a game, especially considering just how much time humanity has collectively spent on the problem of creating fantastical deities and stories.

Also, that is officially the lamest reason I've ever heard for disliking the LOTR movies. Next you'll be complaining about the lack of Tom Bombadil musical interludes.

[TurinTur]

Nothing is original. Everything is inspired in something.

The sky is falling!

[Erlend Grefsrud]

Totally agree with extarbags; I really loved the setting in Morrowind, and I thought it was a crying shame that they went for the thoroughly generic Cyrodiil setting for their true mainstream outing.

That said, I suppose fantasy fatigue is sort of the problem, yes, and I totally agree that the NWNs show that Forgotten Realms is hardly an idiot-proof setting. It could be that I thought the lore and setting of Baldur's Gate was so awesome because of the sheer scale of the thing, which held particular significance to my then-young mind as I was constantly writing AD&D campaigns myself.

Aeon: Flame-bait much? I'm not touting my opinion as gospel, I just reported some news regarding a producer leaving Bioware for what seemed like a less interesting opportunity, playing devil's advocate in the process to blow some life into this thread. Oh, and I completely agree that expecting OMG I HAVE NEVAR SEEN THIS STUFF BEFOAR moments from fantasy RPGs is unreasonable. However, I still think Bethesda is scraping the barrel with the Elder Scrolls lore -- it just isn't particularly compelling stuff compared to even mediocre fantasy novels.

[unbongwah]

there's no way someone can come up with a completely unique mythos for a game, especially considering just how much time humanity has collectively spent on the problem of creating fantastical deities and stories.
Perhaps, but they could stop ripping off the same post-Tolkien pseudo-medieval European settings. It's a big world, RPG designers - think about ripping off someone else for a change!

[Lux]

Also, that is officially the lamest reason I've ever heard for disliking the LOTR movies. Next you'll be complaining about the lack of Tom Bombadil musical interludes.

I am disappointed by the lack of Tom Bombadil and musical interludes.

[gurugeorge]

the Baldur's Gate feel

Actually, amusingly I was playing LOTRO the other day when I idly zoomed all the way out in Rivendell. Blow me! It was Baldur's Gate - just in terms of the graphics and the amazing feel of those first few hours venturing out of the starter town, with the birds twittering, etc.

It's funny, at the time of BG, I used to ruminate that 2-d still had something going for it, you couldn't, at that time, have 3-d graphics as detailed as the backdrops of BG.

Now you can - and actually it's even better (LOTRO in DX10 being a thing of beauty), actually miles more detailed than BG was.

[Aeon221]

Totally agree with extarbags; I really loved the setting in Morrowind, and I thought it was a crying shame that they went for the thoroughly generic Cyrodiil setting for their true mainstream outing.

That said, I suppose fantasy fatigue is sort of the problem, yes, and I totally agree that the NWNs show that Forgotten Realms is hardly an idiot-proof setting. It could be that I thought the lore and setting of Baldur's Gate was so awesome because of the sheer scale of the thing, which held particular significance to my then-young mind as I was constantly writing AD&D campaigns myself.

Aeon: Flame-bait much? I'm not touting my opinion as gospel, I just reported some news regarding a producer leaving Bioware for what seemed like a less interesting opportunity, playing devil's advocate in the process to blow some life into this thread. Oh, and I completely agree that expecting OMG I HAVE NEVAR SEEN THIS STUFF BEFOAR moments from fantasy RPGs is unreasonable. However, I still think Bethesda is scraping the barrel with the Elder Scrolls lore -- it just isn't particularly compelling stuff compared to even mediocre fantasy novels.

I'm sorry, but you're ridiculous. You complain about TES being generic, but in the same post declare your love for the Forgotten Realms stuff.

Now, I'm no DnD nerd. As I've said before, I'm still working on the definition of hit dice. But FR is literally the single most generic fantasy setting imaginable. I'm sure a huge fan of it like yourself will be more than willing to agree that it's based almost completely off of Tolkein and has been the source for innumerable copy cats looking to create a fantasy world.

And that's cool. It's generic because it was so successful, not successful because it was so generic. It's still a very effective location for a game.

TES, as I'm sure someone who is as strongly interested in gameworlds as yourself has noticed, is not, unlike FR, in any way based on the Middle Ages. Instead, the post-Diocletian Dominate is the major influence -- even the art and architecture follows the solid, rigid, domineering style that was popular in the period. This influence is also reflected in the major religion, which is strongly Catholic in architecture and organization (both of the priests and in Akatosh, the dominant deity), and in its lack of tolerance for the various minor daedric (or pagan) cults. And it is also reflected in the attire of the various guards and soldiers -- all of whom have moved into plate or chain from the gear based on the lorica segmenta of the previous games. Note the similarity between this statue of Dio. and colleagues to the Oblivion guardsmen:

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Venice_%E2%80%93_The_Tetrarchs_03.jpg/250px-Venice_%E2%80%93_The_Tetrarchs_03.jpg

http://oblivionmaster13.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oblivion.gif (too big to include)

And then there's the increase in regionalism, with the Dux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dux) commanding their various provincial towns, each with differentiated troops that are wholly different from the unified command structure and look seen in previous TES games. And, of course, the invasion of menacing outsiders, who are all about as barbaric and foreign as you can possibly get. Much like the various Germanic peoples would probably have seemed to anyone who spent their whole life in the cultural heartland of the Roman empire.

Fundamentally, it is a region in a state of decay and decline, as the huge number of collapsing forts and ruins make abundantly clear. It is in the midst of a succession struggle brought about by the death of a strong ruler, as happened to Diocletian's own empire upon his resignation. And it is utterly overshadowed by the cultural and military achievements of the past -- Morrowind was conquered decades, if not centuries, prior, and the beautiful Ayleid ruins are from a long dead civilization. Even the weapons of the current period are outdone by the artifacts of the past. Heck, even the civilians make it clear that regional communication is breaking down (no word from Morrowind) and the future is to be feared.

I'm sure you can see how closely tied all this is to the Dominate period without me further spelling it out.


Now, I doubt many people picked up on this clear change in influence from the Empire to the Dominate from Morrowind to Oblivion. And, honestly, you didn't have to to enjoy the game. You don't need to know that the capital city of Cyrodiil closely resembles Diocletian's palace in Split to enjoy running about whomping stuff.

But it does kind of bug me when people bitch about how generic it is, especially when it's the only AAA game I can think of based on the period. So, yeah, there's a defense.

PS: I RULE YOU.

[Aeon221]

I am disappointed by the lack of Tom Bombadil and musical interludes.

Don't tell anyone, but so was I. My favorite part of the series was the adventures of the hobbits prior to reaching Rivendell. Before Rivendell, it's a light hearted, traditional adventure story not unlike The Hobbit. After Rivendell, it's this thinly veiled overwrought Crucifixion allegory with a bunch of amateurish verse stuffed in at random.

[frank austin]

After Rivendell, it's this thinly veiled overwrought Crucifixion allegory with a bunch of amateurish verse stuffed in at random.

... i think my brain just broke.

[Anaxagoras]

I'm sorry, but you're ridiculous. You complain about TES being generic, but in the same post declare your love for the Forgotten Realms stuff.
Aeon... there's a place (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/forumdisplay.php?f=9) right here on this very forum where you can be as much of a dick as you want to be. And I know you take full advantage of that other world, that other time, where the land is green and good, but then you do shit like this, and the crystal cracks. Not cool man. Not cool.


But it does kind of bug me when people bitch about how generic it is, especially when it's the only AAA game I can think of based on the period.

And yet, it does feel generic to many people, including me. Yeah, the architecture is different from place to place, and they've created an elaborate backstory which interests me not a whit, but any given place lacks texture & differentiation from the next street over. There are hordes of samey villages, with samey people, with identical voice actors. There are huge cities that are one big undifferentiated mass of same. It doesn't leap off the screen, so to speak.

I'm sorry if it bugs you when people voice an opinion that doesn't agree with your own, but differing opinions are what make up a lively discussion. And this is a place that specializes in discussion.

[Mordrak]

As for the future of the TES series, I hope the developers played Assassin's Creed and took some notes while doing so. That's how you re-create ancient cities. It's pretty incredible with the population set to high on the PC running at 1600x1050.

[Aeon221]

Aeon... there's a place (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/forumdisplay.php?f=9) right here on this very forum where you can be as much of a dick as you want to be. And I know you take full advantage of that other world, that other time, where the land is green and good, but then you do shit like this, and the crystal cracks. Not cool man. Not cool.

And yet, it does feel generic to many people, including me. Yeah, the architecture is different from place to place, and they've created an elaborate backstory which interests me not a whit, but any given place lacks texture & differentiation from the next street over. There are hordes of samey villages, with samey people, with identical voice actors. There are huge cities that are one big undifferentiated mass of same. It doesn't leap off the screen, so to speak.

I'm sorry if it bugs you when people voice an opinion that doesn't agree with your own, but differing opinions are what make up a lively discussion. And this is a place that specializes in discussion.

Now I know this might confuse you, but there's a big ol' block of text up there which I like to think of as part of a "discussion".

What's really hilarious is I went to pretty great lengths explaining how Oblivion is fairly different from pretty much every other game out there, setting wise, and you respond with the bolded stuff.

I'm sure we can have a super fun discussion now consisting of me making relevant points and you saying "neener neener I like games with words, but I don't like reading them!"

I feel like this is a discussion of Palestine, where every time I say anything about Israel I have to preface it. So here goes.

Yes, Oblivion has lots of problems. The faces are butt ugly, the voices are terrible and the basic systems, including leveling and combat, are mostly broken. I myself have declared that it is little better than fantasy Barbie, and the story is mostly secondary to playing dress up with all the cute clothing. Hence the large number of nude and furry related mods.

That doesn't change the fact that Bethsoft has created a hugely detailed and fairly original backdrop for the game firmly based in a fairly nuanced portrayal of the Late Roman Empire.

And now you'll reply with "but it was booooooring".

[Aeon221]

... i think my brain just broke.

The prose writing in that series is so bad. So very bad. I'm not saying that to be avaunt guarde or gauche or any other "foreigner words". I've just never quite felt so punished as when I turned the pages in those books and found yet another block of increasingly stupid text waiting for me. I've never had a series make me long for the Begats, or the epic list fights of Paradise Lost and the Iliad, quite like TLOTR did. It was so very, very bad.

Meanwhile, the Hobbit is a gorgeously written book that manages to flit from delightfully witty and lighthearted to soberly emotional without missing a beat. What breaks my brain is how such different works could have been created by the same person.

[frank austin]

An adjective that could adequately describe the level of wrongness here escapes me.

[Aeon221]

An adjective that could adequately describe the level of wrongness here escapes me.

What an excellent discussion we just had, where I provided reasons and you said you were confused! It's just as exciting as reading LOTR!

[frank austin]

Or about as exciting as trolling an internet forum! Whee!

[unbongwah]

Errr, so - Dragon Age. Is that ogre-thing cool-looking, or what?

[Rock8man]

More importantly, are we actually going to see any dragons in the game? And are there any friendly dragons? Can you have a Dragon in your party like in Might and Magic VIII I think it was?

[Erlend Grefsrud]

I'm sorry, but you're ridiculous. You complain about TES being generic, but in the same post declare your love for the Forgotten Realms stuff.

Now, I'm no DnD nerd. As I've said before, I'm still working on the definition of hit dice. But FR is literally the single most generic fantasy setting imaginable. I'm sure a huge fan of it like yourself will be more than willing to agree that it's based almost completely off of Tolkein and has been the source for innumerable copy cats looking to create a fantasy world.

And that's cool. It's generic because it was so successful, not successful because it was so generic. It's still a very effective location for a game.

PS: I RULE YOU.
I think I've already stated that general fantasy fatigue is the issue. I loved AD&D back in the late nineties, but when the LOTR films came out I was in my late teens and realized that I wasn't as enthusiastic about fantasy anymore. I haven't played D&D for 10 years, but I do have a lot of fond memories from it, for instance via Baldur's Gate. I find most fantasy stuff nowadays to be very interchangeable, highly generic, as if there is a sort of consensus as to what fantasy means that cannot be moved away from, complete with exaggerated essential features that very sharply delineate cultures and people and I just don't find that interesting anymore. It feels like I've seen it all before, and I don't need to see it again or literally spend dozens of hours engaged with something I find unsophisticated.

Now, I didn't get much of a Byzantine feeling from Oblivion at all, but that might be because I've never read much about the east Roman empire until after I played Oblivion and I still don't know enough about Byzantine history to care about the parallels. I'm sure it's very compelling if you're an ancient history buff, which I'm not. In any case, I don't feel like I need to be right or wrong in this issue, and I frankly don't feel compelled to engage in a long-winded battle of wits and masculinity with you, since you've obviously got your own very firm notion of what constitutes good world design.

[Sarkus]

If you can't get beyond what you see as the generic nature of most mainstream fantasy, I don't see how Dragon Age will appeal to you. Yay! You just saved yourself some money!

Personally I can get beyond it if the story turns out to be good or I enjoy the gameplay. Playing a game is entertainment and all that matters if I'm entertained enough to justify the expense. I don't expect to be blown away every time by all facets of the product. Hopefully Dragon Age will have some memorable characters or an interesting story, but if not I'll still have fun, just like I did with the very generic Drakensang.

[Aeon221]

If you can't get beyond what you see as the generic nature of most mainstream fantasy, I don't see how Dragon Age will appeal to you. Yay! You just saved yourself some money!


Wow! Now he should switch to Geico for even more savings!

Waitaminute, that lizard is an Argonian in disguise! I wouldn't risk it!

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/canis216/Heik-Auri09.jpg?t=1240572592

They're tricksy!

[Imryll]

Totally agree with extarbags; I really loved the setting in Morrowind, and I thought it was a crying shame that they went for the thoroughly generic Cyrodiil setting for their true mainstream outing.

Curiously, TES forum polls strongly favored Cyrodiil as the location for TES IV. I'm pretty sure from the references in Morrowind to problems with the Septim succession that Cyrodiil was intended all along, but it was also what most fans (not me) said they wanted.

I also don't see exotic as the opposite of generic. A good vanilla is delicious. Of course it requires quality ingredients and subtle balance. If a flavor contains lots of chunky bits, you can hope that folks won't notice that your ice cream is neither rich nor smooth and mostly tastes of sugar.

[frank austin]

I couldn't get more than two pages into the tie-in novel. This does not bode well.

[Slainte Mhath]

When I saw the demo for Dragon Age at GenCon last summer I was blown away both by how visually stunning it was and by the things you could do with combat and magic in the game. Sure it was yet another generic fantasy setting with the usual European style castles, knights and arms/armor types with a healthy dose of Tolkeinesque creatures and mythos applied, but you know what, I'm fine with it.

Seriously, excluding MMORPGs, how many fantasy games do we get per year now? Gone are the days of the SSI D&D series, Wizardry, Ultima and Might and Magic have all fallen by the wayside, and even the awesomeness that was the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series are now distant memories. In the past few years we've had only Bethesda's Elder Scrolls line, the Gothic games and NWN2 to satisfy the urge for a classic RPG (well, and a few Euro imports both good and bad). The fact that Bioware is releasing something, anything of this scale and complexity with a fantasy theme makes me happy. NWN2 wasn't perfect, but the gameplay was fun, the story interesting and the crave to loot (and loot and loot and loot) satisfied. Oblivion had problems, but it was entertaining, visually stunning and had enough content to satisfy even the most voracious appetite. Now I can look forward to a game with the detail level of a KOTOR and the quality of a NWN, how can I NOT be excited?

P.S. - Anyone who's love for epic fantasy wasn't rekindled by the Lord of the Rings movies is dead inside. Dead I say.

[Brad Grenz]

Frankly, I'm never that impressed when people attempt to forge their own, super-original fantasy worlds. It's safest to stick with established mythological motifs, even as Tolkien did. World building is damn hard business and I'm never that impressed with gaudy, tacky, pointless cat people.

I'm more concerned with the expressed effort to be "gritty" with Dragon Age. Don't tell me that. I don't know what that is supposed to mean, nor do I know how that is supposed to be good.

[Telefrog]

I couldn't get more than two pages into the tie-in novel. This does not bode well.

I know the writer of the game is also the author of the book, but I need to give a hearty "Huh?" to this. The Mass Effect novel was pretty terrible, while the game was awesome. They were both written by Drew Karpyshyn. I don't think the tie-in novel should be some kind of predictor of the game.

[mkozlows]

I'm more concerned with the expressed effort to be "gritty" with Dragon Age. Don't tell me that. I don't know what that is supposed to mean, nor do I know how that is supposed to be good.

It means things get muddy, some NPCs will die, and someone might say "fuck."

[frank austin]

I know the writer of the game is also the author of the book, but I need to give a hearty "Huh?" to this. The Mass Effect novel was pretty terrible, while the game was awesome. They were both written by Drew Karpyshyn. I don't think the tie-in novel should be some kind of predictor of the game.

Just because Mass Effect had differing levels of quality between novel and game doesn't mean Dragon Age will, too. As it is, though, the only real indicators of the quality of Dragon Age's writing are the novel and the clips we've seen. I'm not saying Dragon Age will be bad, I'm saying what we've seen of the writing so far does not bode well for the game. I don't see what's so terribly wrong with that.

[Eightball]

Seriously, excluding MMORPGs, how many fantasy games do we get per year now? Gone are the days of the SSI D&D series, Wizardry, Ultima and Might and Magic have all fallen by the wayside, and even the awesomeness that was the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series are now distant memories. In the past few years we've had only Bethesda's Elder Scrolls line, the Gothic games and NWN2 to satisfy the urge for a classic RPG (well, and a few Euro imports both good and bad). The fact that Bioware is releasing something, anything of this scale and complexity with a fantasy theme makes me happy.

I completely agree. Yes, it's generic fantasy...but like you, I'm okay with that. It's not like we're completely overwhelmed with generic fantasy RPGs.

Drakensang was very generic fantasy...but very enjoyable none-the-less.

[roguefrog]

First, hats off to Obsidian for Alpha Protocol.

Second, there are too many untapped settings for RPGs it makes me want to cry a river and drown in it. The potential awesome sauce that isn't being tasted here gots to be some kind of industry wide design crime.

Third, I can't wait for Dragon Age.

[mkozlows]

Just because Mass Effect had differing levels of quality between novel and game doesn't mean Dragon Age will, too. As it is, though, the only real indicators of the quality of Dragon Age's writing are the novel and the clips we've seen. I'm not saying Dragon Age will be bad, I'm saying what we've seen of the writing so far does not bode well for the game. I don't see what's so terribly wrong with that.

There is not a game made whose writing is novel-caliber, with the exception of the Infocom Hitchhiker's Guide. Even St. Planescape of the Torment would be laughably cheesy and overwrought if it were a book.

[Anaxagoras]

Now I know this might confuse you, but there's a big ol' block of text up there which I like to think of as part of a "discussion".
And what a lovely discussion it was. But calling someone ridiculous at the beginning of your big ol' block of text, and then proceeding to talk right past them, isn't a very productive discussion.



What's really hilarious is I went to pretty great lengths explaining how Oblivion is fairly different from pretty much every other game out there, setting wise, and you respond with the bolded stuff.
Yup. Your great lengths are basically an Aspie's account of the Elder Scrolls world. They don't matter. You don't interact with a back story. You interact with the street in front of you, with Generic NPC #3 in front of you. Books can rely on intricate back stories because they're better able to tie them into the events at hand, but even books have to occasionally give us a world we care about it. If Tolkien had produced nothing but the Silmarillion, then Middle Earth would have been a flop. It's because Tolkien gave us vivid characters & a believable world during The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings that Middle Earth was a success. For those people that find Tolkien's prose wooden & tedious, his elaborate back story is irrelevant. Tolkien's world, for them, becomes a generic mess of arcane names & stupid little creatures with furry feet.

The problem is that you don't understand what generic means. Being generic doesn't mean that the world contains a bunch of details that no other worlds have. Rather, being generic means that it feels like other worlds. The Elder Scrolls games feel exactly like a composite of every other fantasy game I've ever played, except that it larked a spark to make it interesting. Baldur's Gate had some amusing characters, Ultima had interesting (at the time) victory conditions & a relatively new take on things (again, for the time) etc. Elder Scrolls has nothing that distinguishes it for me. In other words, it fits the definition of generic: it's exactly like all the other games in its genus: fantasy RPGs.

Here's the thing that will blow your mind: a game can distinguish itself for one person (i.e. "not be generic") and yet fail to distinguish itself for another person. (i.e. "be generic".) The very same game! Yes!

So in order to prove that someone is being ridiculous when they claim a game is being generic, it doesn't do you much good to extoll the virtues of a (largely hidden) backstory. You first have to understand where their complaints are coming from. (pro-tip: ask more questions, make fewer declaratives) If their complaints don't make sense, then point that out. So far, all you've done is declare how wonderful the game is for you. It's an interesting discussion, but it isn't a response to what Erlund said.




I'm sure we can have a super fun discussion now consisting of me making relevant points and you saying "neener neener I like games with words, but I don't like reading them!"
I dream of the day when you start making relevant points so I have the opportunity to say "Neener neener". Please give me that opportunity.



That doesn't change the fact that Bethsoft has created a hugely detailed and fairly original backdrop for the game firmly based in a fairly nuanced portrayal of the Late Roman Empire.
Original backdrop != non-generic game
Furthermore,
Original backdrop != non-generic franchise

[ElGuapo]

...and I frankly don't feel compelled to engage in a long-winded battle of wits and masculinity with you...

We've all seen the pictures you've posted dude. You couldn't win a battle of masculinity with fire, Angie, and Leah in a chocolate-covered cherries factory. :)

[Angie Gallant]

To be fair, we could win a battle of masculinity against like half of the forum.

[Aeon221]

To be fair, we could win a battle of masculinity against like half of the forum.

I was going to post my brute crushing yours to disprove you... but the site wouldn't load. Clearly you really do have some kind of strange powers.

Therefore, I salute our new, uteral overlords!

[Erlend Grefsrud]

Pics proving that beauty, grace and girth can coexist will be presented tomorrow. Tremble.

[Aeon221]

And what a lovely discussion it was. But calling someone ridiculous at the beginning of your big ol' block of text, and then proceeding to talk right past them, isn't a very productive discussion.


Yup. Your great lengths are basically an Aspie's account of the Elder Scrolls world. They don't matter. You don't interact with a back story. You interact with the street in front of you, with Generic NPC #3 in front of you. Books can rely on intricate back stories because they're better able to tie them into the events at hand, but even books have to occasionally give us a world we care about it. If Tolkien had produced nothing but the Silmarillion, then Middle Earth would have been a flop. It's because Tolkien gave us vivid characters & a believable world during The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings that Middle Earth was a success. For those people that find Tolkien's prose wooden & tedious, his elaborate back story is irrelevant. Tolkien's world, for them, becomes a generic mess of arcane names & stupid little creatures with furry feet.

The problem is that you don't understand what generic means. Being generic doesn't mean that the world contains a bunch of details that no other worlds have. Rather, being generic means that it feels like other worlds. The Elder Scrolls games feel exactly like a composite of every other fantasy game I've ever played, except that it larked a spark to make it interesting. Baldur's Gate had some amusing characters, Ultima had interesting (at the time) victory conditions & a relatively new take on things (again, for the time) etc. Elder Scrolls has nothing that distinguishes it for me. In other words, it fits the definition of generic: it's exactly like all the other games in its genus: fantasy RPGs.

Here's the thing that will blow your mind: a game can distinguish itself for one person (i.e. "not be generic") and yet fail to distinguish itself for another person. (i.e. "be generic".) The very same game! Yes!

So in order to prove that someone is being ridiculous when they claim a game is being generic, it doesn't do you much good to extoll the virtues of a (largely hidden) backstory. You first have to understand where their complaints are coming from. (pro-tip: ask more questions, make fewer declaratives) If their complaints don't make sense, then point that out. So far, all you've done is declare how wonderful the game is for you. It's an interesting discussion, but it isn't a response to what Erlund said.



I dream of the day when you start making relevant points so I have the opportunity to say "Neener neener". Please give me that opportunity.



Original backdrop != non-generic game
Furthermore,
Original backdrop != non-generic franchise

You're tilting at windmills, as I agree completely that the game itself is dull as dishwater. It's Fantasy Barbie, the mechanics are broken, and even the combat isn't all that great shakes.


None of my posts have attempted to defend the gameplay because it is indefensibly bad and I agree with you on that point. Ok?


I've focused on the unique nature of the setting. Which, whether you noticed it or not, is indeed exactly what Erlund said:


However, I still think Bethesda is scraping the barrel with the Elder Scrolls lore -- it just isn't particularly compelling stuff compared to even mediocre fantasy novels.


Well, I thought Oblivion was absolute cack, so I suppose my RPG taste is a bit ... different. How can you let yourself sink into a world so utterly devoid of character? To me, the world and setting is the primary draw of a good RPG, and I've had it with elves and orcs.

Could you just cover the blinding hate for a moment and realize that, yes, I am posting in a manner relevant to these comments on the quality and type of the Elder Scroll lore and its similarity to the lore of other games?

It's a fact that these games aren't based on the Medieval sources of DnD. Just look at the not so subtle reference to Pelagius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagius) (Pelagiad (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Pelagiad)) Morrowind had -- doubly funny, considering Pelagius's execution for pushing an ultimate version of free will. Or any of the other stuff I've posted. That's my point. Dismissing the lore as standard Medieval fare is straight up wrong, whatever you think of the quality of the actual game.

[frank austin]

PS - he rules you.

[Aeon221]

PS - he rules you.

http://boingboing.net/images/cthulhu_sopa.jpeg

[belgerog]

I think I've already stated that general fantasy fatigue is the issue.



Do you mean that the problem is in the state of fantasy nowadays or that it's inherent in the fantasy genre?

If you mean the former, I have to say that as with a lot of genres, and as with many different media, only a small percentage of works is actually good. This isn't exclusive to fantasy. You might say that fantasy has an especially high percentage of bad works, but for me, the small percentage of good works more than justify the genre. Obviously, I already have some fondness for fantasy, which is needed to get into the genre (but this is the case for all genres, or else they wouldn't really be genres).

If you mean the latter, I think there's a general misconception with lack of "originality" in fantasy. Every work is somehow derived of many other previous works, there is no such thing as "entirely new". I think this is useful to know here because, as I see it, it's not the fact that dwarves and elves are used that make something generic, but instead the fact that there is no individuality to a work. In other words, there might be a story that follows pretty standard fantasy conventions but that is "original" in that it has it's own life, the way you experience it is specific to the story, and you feel as though you are experiencing something unique.

Again, by unique and original I don't mean something that has never been seen before, I think something can reference familiar elements, but a lot of factors are present in a story, and when it's taken as a whole it sometimes become "alive".

Not that you shouldn't do entirely new things (or else how would fantasy have been born?), but making it so isn't inherently better than using existing archetypes, and I have to say that many people (such as in podcasts and the press) insist too much on games having to be "new" while dismissing very good games which are not from another world, not noticing that "individuality" rather than "originality" that makes games (or stories) truly good.



I find most fantasy stuff nowadays to be very interchangeable, highly generic, as if there is a sort of consensus as to what fantasy means that cannot be moved away from

This is true to a certain point, when it prevents writers and other creators from making something "individual". But I have to insist, it's not a problem with the genre itself. I won't say that creating fantasy works is not dangerous, since you can easily go from using fantasy archetypes and making a good work to shackling yourself in stereotypes.

As for an example, I think Baldur's Gate 2 is useful (as usual). It's in Faerun, which some might consider generic, and some things about it really are. But the game itself has its own life, many elements come together to make something which is actually unique. The drawn environments, the music, the dialogue, they are all coherent and work well together. When I think about BG2, or when I hear the music from the CD startup (the temple district one), I can make no mistake, that is BG2 and no other game or fantasy story, and with it come very specific memories and feelings. You know that something is good when it can't be replaced by anything else.

Same thing goes for A Song of Ice and Fire, Serenity (not fantasy, but something some migh consider as "generic sci fi"), Half-Life, and others.

This is also where I think Blizzard succeed in making good settings. They all seem extremely derivative if you notice where they come from (there are clearly warhammer influences, for instance), but once you play they are unmistakably Blizzard games, although the gameplay itself also makes the games feel more individual (and not only the setting).

I guess my point is, don't feel like you shouldn't like fantasy just because someone who considers himself knowledgeable in art tells you it's not "new" enough (I'm not referring to Grefsrud, but to people in general).

[unbongwah]

No idea if anyone here cares, but apparently there's going to be a Dragon Age PnP RPG (http://dragonage.bioware.com/penpaper.html) this fall from Green Ronin (http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/) (who?).

[alexlitel]

On a slightly related note, this is apparently the new BioWare logo.

http://8.media.tumblr.com/63rAntvAOn4o6xf4k4cF1X8no1_500.jpg

[Angie Gallant]

Green Ronin does good work. I hope that Dragon Age isn't as generic as I fear so that they have something interesting to work with.

[Miramon]

On a slightly related note, this is apparently the new BioWare logo.

http://8.media.tumblr.com/63rAntvAOn4o6xf4k4cF1X8no1_500.jpg

Wow, that's awful. Nearly as bad as the famous AT&T Flaming Anus, but at least Bioware probably didn't pay $100 million for some idiot to draw a circle with a red crayon.

[Disconnected]

I'm more concerned with the expressed effort to be "gritty" with Dragon Age. Don't tell me that. I don't know what that is supposed to mean, nor do I know how that is supposed to be good."Gritty" usually means taking the misery from low fantasy, the gore from dark fantasy, and transplanting both into a high fantasy setting.

I'd be sceptical if it was a book, but I can see how it'd work for a game.

[alexlitel]

Wow, that's awful. Nearly as bad as the famous AT&T Flaming Anus, but at least Bioware probably didn't pay $100 million for some idiot to draw a circle with a red crayon.By the way, it came from here (http://www.modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pid=10378269) (link is work-safe, but other pages usually feature people who are at least half-naked).

[Malaak]

I'm confused.. hasn't that been Bioware's logo for years?

[Derek French]

Yeah, I am going to have to poke around. That pretty much looks like the logo I have been seeing here for the past 9 years. There must be some subtle change that my non-art eyes are missing.

[MSUSteve]

Wow, that's awful. Nearly as bad as the famous AT&T Flaming Anus, but at least Bioware probably didn't pay $100 million for some idiot to draw a circle with a red crayon.
Is this hyperbole or is there a really interesting story of corporate waste surrounding that? If there is a story, I'd love to read it.

[Miramon]

Is this hyperbole or is there a really interesting story of corporate waste surrounding that? If there is a story, I'd love to read it.

Oh hell, now I realize I was actually talking about Lucent, which was of course the AT&T spinoff that took on Bell Labs and eventually merged with Alcatel to form a joint firm that was more than twice as incompetent as either individually.

I don't have a reference for the amount of money spent back when it was first spun off to come up with the branding and logo -- that's what a Bell Labs friend told me. If you google "lucent flaming asshole" you will find a lot of hits, though.

[frank austin]

"Violence" trailer (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/09/blood-and-smuts-dragon-age-violence-trailer/) is up over at RPS.

Despite the terrible choice of music and god-awful sex bit, I kinda liked it. Saw some decent animation in there.

edit: (there is sarcasm in here, by the way)

[Mike O'Malley]

If you google "lucent flaming asshole" you will find a lot of hits, though.

The first of which is this thread.

[Miramon]

It's the second for me.

[Ragnar Oppedal]

"Violence" trailer (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/09/blood-and-smuts-dragon-age-violence-trailer/) is up over at RPS.

Despite the terrible choice of music and god-awful sex bit, I kinda liked it. Saw some decent animation in there.

edit: (there is sarcasm in here, by the way)

That's fucking terrible. THIS IS THE NEW SHIIIT indeed.

[Lizard_King]

It's a good song, but I'm not sure what the message of that trailer was supposed to be. Are they just trolling Fox News now?

[frank austin]

I'm pretty sure the message was something like :

"Dark! Gritty! Boobies!"

[Aeon221]

Ugh, I'd better be able to skip this iteration of the Angsty-Awkward-Bioware-CGI-Sex-Scene (tm). If I want animated porn, I can google it gosh darn it!

Also did I catch a glimpse of the fabled wolverine cavalry in that trailer?

[Armando Penblade]

Hrm. . . so, I get the whole sarcasm earlier thing, but. . .

Their faces looked awful. The animation was terrible. And given the fact that this is a modern, big-budget game, even the models looked like shit.

Now, Christ, I enjoy FF7 and KotOR and fucking Super Mario Bros., but "new" tech done poorly looks a hell of a lot worse than "old" tech done well. Ugh.

. . . but I'll still buy it :(

[Veefy]

As mentioned in the comments section under the trailer, if you turn the Marilyn Manson music down and turn the Hawaii Five-0 theme song up the trailer is a lot better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnK8b_jk8w
start it running when you see the Bioware logo come up.

[Andrew Mayer]

As mentioned in the comments section under the trailer, if you turn the Marilyn Manson music down and turn the Hawaii Five-0 theme song up the trailer is a lot better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnK8b_jk8w
start it running when you see the Bioware logo come up.

It's better than you'd imagine it would be.

[Lux]

Are they just trolling Fox News now?

My first thought also.

[Rob_Merritt]

"Violence" trailer (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/09/blood-and-smuts-dragon-age-violence-trailer/) is up over at RPS.

Despite the terrible choice of music and god-awful sex bit, I kinda liked it. Saw some decent animation in there.

edit: (there is sarcasm in here, by the way)

Did they cut the sex part out? All I saw was two people with clothes hugging and a woman blowing out a candle.

[Adree]

Glad they chose a 2003 song to go with their 2003 visuals.

[Andrew Mayer]

Did they cut the sex part out? All I saw was two people with clothes hugging and a woman blowing out a candle.

Shechsy!

[Jason Cross]

I've seen the game running in real-time and I think the graphics look pretty good. Including the character models and facial animation. Not the best I've seen, but not distractingly bad. What bothers me most about it is that the art direction seems pretty generic.

Anyway, that trailer was just awful. Just as a good trailer can get me to anticipate a game I didn't have on my radar or had dismissed, this trailer took a game I was fairly psyched for and put it straight in my "well...I guess I can wait until it's out for a couple weeks and see what all my friends think" file.

It's like when you're playing a Sims-like game and you say or do exactly the wrong thing to someone. And instead of getting the small reduction in attraction/interest/whatever from them you'd normally get for saying or doing the wrong thing, you send them straight into the red where they attack you and go running away.

This trailer was like Bioware was making fun of game trailers, only they forgot to put the wink and nudge in there that lets us all know it's a joke and Dragon Age is actually mature, not just "M for Mature."

Biiiiiitch Pleeeaase!

[Royal Fool]

I can't even imagine how the people at Bioware (actually working on the game) must have felt about this trailer.

[Matt Bowyer]

I've never had a trailer almost completely kill my enthusiasm for a game before. Yeesh.

[Morberis]

Soo, did EA marketing make this?

[mkozlows]

Terrible trailer, terrible graphics, terrible music, but I'm pretty much a locked-in day one purchase no matter what. Their next trailer could have the same music along with two coprophagic girls, and I'd still be buying the game on sight.

[Mordrak]

What bothers me most about it is that the art direction seems pretty generic.


Huh? Well what else did you expect from Bioware? That said, I actually think the art direction is better than average for Bioware (the direction, not judging technical quality). And if the number of characters on screen is that high, then I think the technical quality is forgivable.



Anyway, that trailer was just awful. Just as a good trailer can get me to anticipate a game I didn't have on my radar or had dismissed, this trailer took a game I was fairly psyched for and put it straight in my "well...I guess I can wait until it's out for a couple weeks and see what all my friends think" file.




It's like when you're playing a Sims-like game and you say or do exactly the wrong thing to someone. And instead of getting the small reduction in attraction/interest/whatever from them you'd normally get for saying or doing the wrong thing, you send them straight into the red where they attack you and go running away.

This trailer was like Bioware was making fun of game trailers, only they forgot to put the wink and nudge in there that lets us all know it's a joke and Dragon Age is actually mature, not just "M for Mature."

Biiiiiitch Pleeeaase!

The only laughably bad elements of the trailer were the music, what they thought would pass for sexual titillation, and the particularly bad blood spurt when they guy took the thrown knife. We already knew the lip syncing was going to leave a bit to be desired. Everything else seemed pretty decent for a violence trailer.

[Angie Gallant]

http://truemeaningoflife.com/images/goddamnit.png

Never before have I felt DO NOT WANT this strongly.

[copet]

Watching this trailer reminded me way too much of NWN2. I wish they could upgrade their graphics more than this. The blood spurts are... lacking. I'd prefer they had none at all rather than what is displayed. The trailer all together really did nothing to make me excited. I think I will probably wait till the first price drop before I get this game... unless a good review is given :P

[Jakub]

Never before have I felt DO NOT WANT this strongly.
Wow, I so did not want to see that image.

[Mordrak]

As mentioned in the comments section under the trailer, if you turn the Marilyn Manson music down and turn the Hawaii Five-0 theme song up the trailer is a lot better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnK8b_jk8w
start it running when you see the Bioware logo come up.

Yeah, it fits almost perfectly, which is hilarious.

That said, you guys are really over reacting to the trailer.

[Adree]

Yeah, it fits almost perfectly, which is hilarious.

That said, you guys are really over reacting to the trailer.

You're under reacting.

http://i44.tinypic.com/kd1se8.gif

[Mordrak]

You're under reacting.

http://i44.tinypic.com/kd1se8.gif

Ok, what did you expect? What do you want out of the trailer?

The biggest problem is they don't have a core feature to sell yet. It's not Star Wars. And Mass Effect demonstrated a pretty decent evolution of the genre (the new dialog system) and the star map exploration (which ended up being a disappointment for many but provides a decent starting point for the sequel).

What they need is a trailer that's like the intro to Baldur's Gate 1, which sets us up for a relatively intriguing story since it doesn't have a big design or technological bullet point. That's what this trailer (and all the trailers I've seen) don't provide. The individual parts are decent enough.

*shrugs*

[Adree]

Ok, what did you expect? What do you want out of the trailer?

The biggest problem is they don't have a core feature to sell yet. It's not Star Wars. And Mass Effect demonstrated a pretty decent evolution of the genre (the new dialog system) and the star map exploration (which ended up being a disappointment for many but provides a decent starting point for the sequel).

What they need is a trailer that's like the intro to Baldur's Gate 1, which sets us up for a relatively intriguing story since it doesn't have a big design or technological bullet point. That's what this trailer (and all the trailers I've seen) don't provide. The individual parts are decent enough.

*shrugs*

The core feature appears to be early 00's graphics.

[Mordrak]

The core feature appears to be early 00's graphics.

That's hyperbole. Knights of the Old Republic came out in 2003, and it certainly looks better than that.

[Sarkus]

This trailer has so far generated a 26 page thread over at the official boards, with some of the regulars getting pretty angry and a few of the devs feeling the need to post to defend the decision to make this trailer (which they insist was a Bioware move, not an EA one.)

I suggested in my post that they need to convince the people that are worried about generic fantasy and poor graphics before trying to capture the action crowds attention.

:-)

[Mordrak]

Top NWN2, Bottom Dragon Age.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/hawksdr/dragonagecompare.png

The biggest problem with Dragon Age is the animation, particularly the lip syncing, but it's not the graphics. Dragon Age looks great. You guys are blind if you can't see the difference.

[alexlitel]

I don't know what is worse - this trailer or the Duke footage.

[Adree]

Top NWN2, Bottom Dragon Age.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/hawksdr/dragonagecompare.png

The biggest problem with Dragon Age is the animation, particularly the lip syncing, but it's not the graphics. Dragon Age looks great. You guys are blind if you can't see the difference.

I don't recall seeing that screenshot in the trailer. I don't blame them for making it a Wii game, but we expect better.

Top Mass Effect, Bottom Dragon Age

http://i43.tinypic.com/2hd7814.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/15hexpi.jpg

[Mordrak]

Actually, you're not quite making your point. Yes, fat ugly people in ren fair outfits are funny looking. But one of the best things about my example Dragon Age screenshot is that the character faces--while stylized--pleasantly work in the realistic imperfections of many people's faces, rather than opting for the easy way out by making everyone look like models. It'd be a good thing if the guy on the right isn't out of place in Dragon Age and even a few of the fat chick you're laughing at with your comparison.

Edit: And that's not to say there weren't some bad decisions with the trailer and some truly bad moments, there were, but there's strangely some heavy compression artifacts even in the HD version. I'd bet it looks much better at full resolution and better compression.

[Adree]

Actually, you're not quite making your point. Yes, fat ugly people in ren fair outfits are funny looking. But one of the best things about my example Dragon Age screenshot is that the character faces--while stylized--pleasantly work in the realistic imperfections of many people's faces, rather than opting for the easy way out by making everyone look like models. It'd be a good thing if the guy on the right isn't out of place in Dragon Age and even a few of the fat chick you're laughing at with your comparison.

Edit: And that's not to say there weren't some bad decisions with the trailer and some truly bad moments, there were, but there's strangely some heavy compression artifacts even in the HD version. I'd bet it looks much better at full resolution and better compression.

I give up, let's just agree that it's hideous like Everquest 2 was/is.

[Mordrak]

I give up, let's just agree that it's hideous like Everquest 2 was/is.

Let's just agree to disagree.

[alexlitel]

Someone better mashup this and the Hawaii Five-0 theme into one video.

[gurugeorge]

Awful trailer in terms of aiming at a target audience - but at the same time, as some have said, at this stage, the game is what it is, and to be put off buying it because of a trailer which may or may not represent what it is, seems a bit premature.

Graphics wise I think it looks good - but again, as others have said, the art direction looks a bit generic and uninspired. It seems to have gone too far and too stolidly into the "mediaeval" look, forgetting that D&D takes inspiration from all sorts of sources (think of the mechanical/technological bits and bobs in BG).

[Disconnected]

I give up, let's just agree that it's hideous like Everquest 2 was/is.

Granted, the art direction isn't exactly distinctive, but it appears consistent and fitting the theme, so.. Are you bitching about the poly count, texture resolution, or what? And if you are, shouldn't you be bitching about hardware deficient gamers instead?

I mean, look at the kind of flack devs take every time they put out a game that only 10% of gamers have the hardware to run at 60fps. I can't see why you'd expect anyone to make games with system requirements much beyond a 360 at this time.

[Aeon221]

Everything is better with Hawaii Five-0 music! But wow, that's eerie how well timed it is, and how much better the experience was.

[Alistair]

I mean, look at the kind of flack devs take every time they put out a game that only 10% of gamers have the hardware to run at 60fps. I can't see why you'd expect anyone to make games with system requirements much beyond a 360 at this time.

If only that followed. Did you play NWN2?

[nabeel]

http://i43.tinypic.com/24q068g.jpg

[Hugin]

The biggest problem with Dragon Age is the animation, particularly the lip syncing, but it's not the graphics. Dragon Age looks great. You guys are blind if you can't see the difference.

The character designs range from bland to ugly, and that's before any of them try and fail miserably to talk. With no established IP or unusual gameplay technology, they've got to sell me on the story or the visuals. Right now I'm getting little or no sense of the story, and what they do try to convey is crippled by the bad animation and lipsync. And the plain old visuals just aren't exciting me. I have yet to see a character or scene that I thought was cool and compelling. And some of the character designs border on comically bad, like the big armored guy with the weird ugly armor and the weird awkward barrel torso.

How this could be a day one purchase for anyone at this stage is beyond me.

[Miramon]

Honestly, I can't think of a western single-player RPG with good character designs and animation. (Most JRPGs are even worse, but there are a few that are better). Think of the ugly shambling hulks clipping through doorways and furniture from that Troika Vampire game. Bioware has never had good character animations: tripping through the KotOR hallways with clumsy Jedi.... Bethesda's faces and animations are notoriously bad, and Fallout 3 just raised the bar from godawful to mediocre for their characters, no matter how nice their rubble piles look.

So I really don't think of the faces and animations as a much of a selling point for RPGs anyway. FWIW, this one looks so-so from these screenshots (too lazy to see the trailer), but as long as it's not actively horrible....

[Rock8man]

As mentioned in the comments section under the trailer, if you turn the Marilyn Manson music down and turn the Hawaii Five-0 theme song up the trailer is a lot better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnK8b_jk8w
start it running when you see the Bioware logo come up.

Nice. I liked that combination.

As for the original trailer, I'm not sure what to think. It didn't show me anything that made me excited about the game, but at the same time, I don't know what Adree is talking about when he says it's early 00s graphics.

[Kirian]

Obligatory image:
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/stains.jpg

I wanted to say Gears of the Rings, then complain about Peter Jackson ruining+ the imagination of RPG designers but it's sort of old now. Terrible trailer, even worse music. As an aside, "This is the new shit" is quite funny coming from a figure who tries to be controversial and, as far as I can tell, hasn't changed since he started. Then again, I have never liked him or his music.


+Not his fault, the people on Lord of the Rings did a great job.

[frank austin]

But dude, armies crashing against each other is like, what fantasy is all about now.

I didn't like Mass Effect or Neverwinter Nights 2, but I remember at least being mildly excited for them before they came out. Everything I hear about Dragon Age (with the exception of it lacking online DRM) has me wanting to plug up my ears and go "Lalala I'm not listening!"

[Kool Moe Dee]

Well, I thought the dragon logo thing with the blood at the end was pretty neat.

Everything else? Uhh...

[Disconnected]

If only that followed. Did you play NWN2?

Yeah. 30-35fps on machine with something like 5 times the recommended specs. But that's sort of the point. Performance is starting to matter. Probably because it's a non-issue on consoles.

[Mordrak]

Graphics wise I think it looks good - but again, as others have said, the art direction looks a bit generic and uninspired. It seems to have gone too far and too stolidly into the "mediaeval" look, forgetting that D&D takes inspiration from all sorts of sources (think of the mechanical/technological bits and bobs in BG).

Um, it's not based on D&D, but they are definitely going for a idealized medieval look.



The character designs range from bland to ugly, and that's before any of them try and fail miserably to talk.


Again, Bioware has never had a strong aesthetic sense, and the designs here, while definitely inspired by the LotoR movies are still stronger than most of the stuff Bioware does (at least of what I've seen so far). The sorceress is particularly bad here, but every thing else I'd put solidly above average.



I have yet to see a character or scene that I thought was cool and compelling.


This is really the issue. They need a hook. They say they are inspired somewhat by GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire series, but they need to reread that prologue and first chapter. But I agree they need to invest in doing some serious passes on the animation.

[MrAnderson]

As mentioned in the comments section under the trailer, if you turn the Marilyn Manson music down and turn the Hawaii Five-0 theme song up the trailer is a lot better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnK8b_jk8w
start it running when you see the Bioware logo come up.

Wow. So much better.
To me that that Manson noise is just plain awful, and made me embarrassed to watch the trailer with sound up. A quick swap in the Hawaii Five-0 music and bam watchable trailer.

[Robert Sharp]

I can't really tell much good or bad from that trailer. It was a violence trailer, apparently intended to draw in teenagers. Some of the comments that followed even said "about time someone made a more mature game, with more blood and sex!" and I don't think those people were being ironic.

That said, for those of us who really would like a mature game, this trailer doesn't do much. Awkward sex scenes and blood spurting are the opposite of mature. But this trailer wasn't focusing on story elements, so there's no way to know what the game will have in that area. I'm still excited because I love Bioware, and I'm hopeful the story will be good. I thought BG2 had a nice story. ME did, I suppose. I didn't finish it because I thought the gameplay was just awful. But the cultures and such were interesting enough to me.

[Aeon221]

Apparently there's talk of rebooting Hawaii Five-0. I can't decide if I'm excited or terrified by the idea.

Either way, if they dump the theme song I doubt I'll watch.

[Matthew Gallant]

I think it's great that somebody at BioWare likes Sword of the Berserk as much as I do, but the character designs they've got are super plain.

[belgerog]

I don't think you can really say anything about Dragon Age being generic or not right now, we've seen to few, and we don't know much about the story. If I avoided playing fantasy games that at first glance seem to be generic, I'd never have played any game other than my first fantasy game. I don't think the game can be criticized on this level just yet.

In other words, before Baldur's Gate 2 came out, if I told you that an RPG set in Faerûn was coming out, you might think it was a generic setting, but BG2 has a life of its own (I tried to explain this in this thread 2 or 3 pages back).

However, even though I really liked mass effect, I thought Bioware evidently dropped the ball with the game in some aspects (the potential was there for many good things, which weren't executed), so in this sense I am cautious about Dragon Age. My point is, we'll see. If it turns out to be a great game, and a true return to the BG origins, awesome, if not, I won't be surprised.

[skyride]

Why does the color pallete in the game look so drab from the few trailers/screenshots I've seen? Everything is smudged by brown goo.

[Angie Gallant]

Brown is one of the mature colors.

[Equisilus]

Brown is one of the mature colors.

A highlight of the new shit.

[frank austin]

Dragon Age is actually set in Elantris?

[NuclearWinter]

Someone better mashup this and the Hawaii Five-0 theme into one video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yTVjUY9wMg

[Rob_Merritt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yTVjUY9wMg

That was Awesome!

[Daly]

Wow that worked out way better than I thought it would. The end matches so well!

[Royal Fool]

Wow that worked out way better than I thought it would. The end matches so well!

It does, doesn't it? I also found that Kojak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z-3vP9HQ-E) and Magnum P.I. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64GyuozXtnQ) go pretty well with it. And Buck Rogers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeJs0_26XMk), too!

[Desslock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yTVjUY9wMg

So great.

Really disappointed with that official trailer -- I think the comparison to the graphics of EQ2 is apt. They may be technically fine, but they look plastic-y and otherworldly, instead of natural. The graphics in Mass Effect in that comparison shot posted above looked far more natural.

I'm sure I'll love this game anyway, but I don't really like any of the media put out to date on it.

I want more sex/nudity and adult themes in RPGs...but man, the "romance" scenes of that trailer highlight why nobody bothers with it.

[Mordrak]

I'm certainly not going to argue with the fact that the faces are more stylized than Mass Effect, but an overwhelming majority of the problems come from the animation. The bad animations just exaggerate the other problems with the models. However, the EQ2 comparison is anything but apt (http://www.eq2online.com/gallery/screenshots/EverQuest_II_June_2004_004). It's pretty obvious they are going for a painterly style rather than the cool desaturated realism in Mass Effect. They aren't succeeding fully, but you're misreading the warmth in the skin from the [imitation of] subsurface lighting as plastic.

Edit: After looking at more screenshots, Dragon Age suffers from some pretty terrible inconsistency. This shot for example looks fine (http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/4/0/2/5/2/5/DragonAge2008_12_1020_24_22_26.jpg.jpg) but this shot (http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/4/0/2/5/2/5/Screenshot_20081128_135748_528.jpg.jpg) is absolutely terrible. This one (http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/4/0/2/5/2/5/DragonAge2008_12_1020_26_28_06.jpg.jpg) looks alright (but suffers from some pretty terrible grass on the right) but again, this one (http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/2/6/1/4/6/1/download_screenshot_42.jpg.jpg) looks terrible. Finally, this one (http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/2/4/5/8/0/1/download_screenshot_30.jpg.jpg) looks pretty wicked except for all the jaggies.

But comparing it to Mass Effect is missing the aesthetics they are attempting, and really, Mass Effect actually does look plastic minus the film grain filter.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/hawksdr/adept_jane-1.png

[Chris Nahr]

Lead Designer Mike Laidlaw (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/dragon-age-origins-mike-laidlaw-interview) talks about the scriptable tactical system, claims that Bioware has de-mechanized morality and Dragon Age is a cinematic experience for an older audience that "wasn't expecting to have that much sex" (no, seriously!).

[Desslock]

I'm certainly not going to argue with the fact that the faces are more stylized than Mass Effect,...
But comparing it to Mass Effect is missing the aesthetics they are attempting, and really, Mass Effect actually does look plastic minus the film grain filter.

I was just talking about the shot comparison in this post -- the Dragon's Age guys look like the plastic Autons from Doctor Who, while the Mass Effect guys (particularly the blue alien) look great.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=1731162&postcount=877

[Mordrak]

I can see what you're saying, but it doesn't read as plastic to me. It reads as a fantasy attempt at this...

http://www.malaspina.org/GIF/bar_caravaggio_12.jpg

...but only without the heavy shadows and a warmer palette. There's a fantasy artist that does a bunch of book covers in watercolor, I wish I could remember his or her name, but it's like a mix of that artist (which uses a lot of warm browns and yellows) and the Caravaggio above. That's what the style reads as to me at least. Now, they aren't entirely successful. I'd say they are over half way there.

Edit: But obviously, I'm swimming against the tide here, no reason to dig myself into yet another pile on and I'm certainly not trying to argue that Dragon Age looks like the best thing evar! So continue!

[Alistair]

I never know what plastic skin is supposed to refer to. I agree the problems in DA are the animation and the shoulderp...art design.

Still a buy, just not an urgent one....

[Rob_Merritt]

If that song from the trailer is in the game, its a serious no buy from me.

[Ben Sones]

It's pretty obvious they are going for a painterly style rather than the cool desaturated realism in Mass Effect. They aren't succeeding fully, but you're misreading the warmth in the skin from the [imitation of] subsurface lighting as plastic.

Subsurface scattering does the opposite of making skin look plastic, but I'm not really seeing any in that screenshot above, in any event. I think the main culprits for the plastic-y look are the metal objects, which don't look much like metal, but more like they have been spray-painted with silver paint.

[Eightball]

I can't really tell much good or bad from that trailer. It was a violence trailer, apparently intended to draw in teenagers. Some of the comments that followed even said "about time someone made a more mature game, with more blood and sex!" and I don't think those people were being ironic.

That said, for those of us who really would like a mature game, this trailer doesn't do much. Awkward sex scenes and blood spurting are the opposite of mature. But this trailer wasn't focusing on story elements, so there's no way to know what the game will have in that area. I'm still excited because I love Bioware, and I'm hopeful the story will be good.

I agree with you. Whomever the genius in marketing thought releasing that trailer, in the absence of a great deal of background information, should be fired.

Let alone whomever greenlighted a Marilyn Mansen song called "This is the New Shit." I mean...really?

If we're up in arms about it, I wonder what is the reaction from the psychotics at RPGCodex, etc...

[Killzig]

If we're up in arms about it, I wonder what is the reaction from the psychotics at RPGCodex, etc...
Thread reads pretty close to this one. Except instead of Hawaii 5-0 they're using Electric Six's 'Gay Bar', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q54LJ5RsqRw

[Dave Markell]

Anyway, that trailer was just awful. Just as a good trailer can get me to anticipate a game I didn't have on my radar or had dismissed, this trailer took a game I was fairly psyched for and put it straight in my "well...I guess I can wait until it's out for a couple weeks and see what all my friends think" file.

I know I'm a day late commenting on the trailer, but yeah. DA just went from "guaranteed day one purchase" to "read some reviews and wait".

[Imryll]

I've never had a trailer almost completely kill my enthusiasm for a game before. Yeesh.

Heh. We didn't buy BG until several years after release because of a trailer that left us with the impression it was all about fighting ogres. Anyway, the message to me is, "Maybe it really is the spiritual heir." ;-)

[Angie Gallant]

Well, going to the forums for Dragon Age certainly didn't make me have any warmer feelings towards this game. Apparently they've announced two female characters that can be romanced and no male characters. In and of itself this is hardly the end of the world, I play games without romance storylines all the time. I enjoy them when they are present (and don't involve playing therapist and replacing a dead woman in his life) but I can do without. But Bioware's female fanbase is rather vocal about them. They even like Carth. But as dedicated and vocal as these ladies are, they can't even get a forum confirmation of a romance for them, much less a video of half-naked men fanning a female PC or anything like that.

Come on guys, pander to us some, our money is just as green. It'd at least make me go back to considering the game.

Edit: Oh man, Gay Bar works PERFECTLY with that trailer.

[Mordrak]

Subsurface scattering does the opposite of making skin look plastic, but I'm not really seeing any in that screenshot above, in any event. I think the main culprits for the plastic-y look are the metal objects, which don't look much like metal, but more like they have been spray-painted with silver paint.


Well to me, in that particular screenshot, the skin looks very luminous--which is due to the firelight--but I could see the highlights of which could be read as plastic-y. That's where I was going with the subsurface thing, but admittidely it's not very applicable. The screennshots of the enemies so far (whatever their dark horde is called in the lore) look much more like plastic to me, or even worse, like they are wrapped in shrink wrap.

[Ben Sones]

The warmth is just the color of the light. Subsurface scattering is an effect that can primarily be seen in the shadows, which in the skin will tend to be warmer (lighter, more chromatic, and shifted in hue towards red) than they would be otherwise, especially in the halftone area where the lights transition into shadow. It also tends to downplay surface texture (though wet or oily skin still shows texture in the specular highlights--you can see that in the image below, especially in the lips), and softens shadow transitions, even in hard light. For example:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Eiwce13X738/SCQBPSacFiI/AAAAAAAACi0/fNy3SG3iPlU/s1600/face_bssrdf.jpg

I don't really see any of that in that screenshot. The shadows have the typical "dead" look that every non-SSS skin shader exhibits. Even so, I think people are used to that sort of thing in games. I really think the metal shaders are more responsible for the plastic look. The metal in that shot looks very plastic-y.

[Aeon221]

Thread reads pretty close to this one. Except instead of Hawaii 5-0 they're using Electric Six's 'Gay Bar', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q54LJ5RsqRw

That is freakishly good. Especially at the end, when the Dragon Age: Origins logo shoots up and the vid is playing "I've got something to put in you!"

Amazing.

[caesarbear]

Come on guys, pander to us some, our money is just as green. It'd at least make me go back to considering the game.

This wasn't enough for you?
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4876/maximnwnl6494412qw9.jpg
Don't you gals get like some killer fashion tips from these games? Or do you just play them for the quizzes?

[Angie Gallant]

God, I had managed to forget Miss Shell Vagina.

[frank austin]

I can't decide which part of that picture disgusts me the most.

[Mordrak]

Edit: Oh man, Gay Bar works PERFECTLY with that trailer.

I think it fits better with the timing of Gay Bar--just barely--but Hawaii Five-O is a better thematic fit.

[Aeon221]

That picture makes me feel like I'm an adult! I'm an adult playing an adult game! Not like those jackasses who whack off to cartoon porn, nosiree, because I'm a mature adult! And to remind myself of my maturity, I will force myself to stare at the shellgina!

[MrAnderson]

After having a day or so to let that trailer sink in, I am still dumbfounded. I must simply be completely out of the target market for that trailer.

I know I am not the hippest person when it comes to music, but that music selection only discourages me from buying the game.* And the fact that someone green lit that music selection does not boost my faith in the company's ability to make other decisions.

As a matter of fact, as a potential customer that trailer does little to pass along any information about what makes the game not just another fantasy RPG.

[Aeon221]

After having a day or so to let that trailer sink in, I am still dumbfounded. I must simply be completely out of the target market for that trailer.

I know I am not the hippest person when it comes to music, but that music selection only discourages me from buying the game.* And the fact that someone green lit that music selection does not boost my faith in the company's ability to make other decisions.

As a matter of fact, as a potential customer that trailer does little to pass along any information about what makes the game not just another fantasy RPG.

Wolverine cavalry, duh! Didn't you see them charge? It was terrifying and utterly different from that cheesy bear cavalry every game has nowadays.

[Miramon]

God, I had managed to forget Miss Shell Vagina.

Oh is that what it was? My attention was strangely drawn to it. Never saw that ad before, but wow, that's all I can say. Not sure that I can recall a game ad with a more blatant pandering approach -- and no, that's not a challenge.

[Tim James]

I'd be for funding a study to plot brainwaves of gaming geeks during development of a new title. I'd imagine there are a lot of swings between elation and nerd rage.

[Wallapuctus]

I dunno I think you are all over reacting. That trailer is a direct result of the EA marketing department. You know, the guys that came up with "Maddenoliday". Ignore it.

[Equisilus]

I dunno I think you are all over reacting. That trailer is a direct result of the EA marketing department. You know, the guys that came up with "Maddenoliday". Ignore it.

From the lengthy Bioboards thread on the subject:


Posted 05/09/09 22:34 (GMT) by Chris Priestly


Posted 05/09/09 22:32 (GMT) by reflir

Who is actually responsible for this trailer?BioWare.

[Tom Chick]

Oh lord, that Electric Six song is so incredibly appropriate. I'm officially over the awesomeness of the Hawaii Five-O theme. In fact, I'm pretty sure some joker at Bioware timed the trailer specifically to go with that song. It was probably the same guy who put the gay sims kissing in SimCopter!

-Tom

[Mordrak]

Really? The Hawaii Five-O song actually makes me want a cheesy epic fantasy RPG that's literally like a mashup between Lord of the Rings and buddy cop movie. The Electirc six song, while timed better, doesn't really inform or enhance the material.

Edit: I really am beginning to think I'm from Bizarro World.

[Andrew Mayer]

Oh lord, that Electric Six song is so incredibly appropriate. I'm officially over the awesomeness of the Hawaii Five-O theme. In fact, I'm pretty sure some joker at Bioware timed the trailer specifically to go with that song. It was probably the same guy who put the gay sims kissing in SimCopter!

-Tom

Here's the thing I learned from following mash-up music scene for a while:

Everything (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gay+bar+mashup&search=Search)works with Gay Bar.

[Jason McMaster]

Still looking forward to this game quite a bit but that trailer... what the fuck.

[Vlork]

This preview (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3174177) was a nicely timed relief. Lots of tactical spellcasting and whatnot, and very little resemblance to all of the recent blood, sex, and Marilyn Manson nonsense, as far as I can tell. My anticipation is slowly returning.

[Rob_Merritt]

It was probably the same guy who put the gay sims kissing in SimCopter!


No, that guy was fired http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Servin

[Aeon221]

This preview (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3174177) was a nicely timed relief. Lots of tactical spellcasting and whatnot, and very little resemblance to all of the recent blood, sex, and Marilyn Manson nonsense, as far as I can tell. My anticipation is slowly returning.

Now the problem is I'm mentally inserting Gay Bar into everything related to Bioware.


But as often as it'd been said, I didn't quite believe that sentiment AT THE GAY BAR GAY BAR GAY BAR.

It's rough.

[Hugin]

The Electirc six song, while timed better, doesn't really inform or enhance the material.

Oh, I think it does. For me it transforms the ultraviolence and weird faces/character designs/animations into camp, a sort of ham fisted Grand Guignol that, as others have noted previously, the game industry too often foists off as "hardcore" or "mature".


Edit: I really am beginning to think I'm from Bizarro World.

I assume that's where you pulled the Caravaggio reference from. :)

[Tom Chick]

No, that guy was fired http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Servin

Rob, I'm pretty sure they hired him back so he could provide the Dragon Age trailer with the homoerotic subtext that it needed to play perfectly with Electric Six's Gay Bar running in the background. That's the only possible explanation for how well it works. If you don't believe me, try it yourself and I think you'll agree.

-Tom

[Mordrak]

I assume that's where you pulled the Caravaggio reference from. :)

It was mostly for comparisons of the very smooth, painterly style, and the stylized faces, rather than Mass Effect's attempt at a more photo realistic (or hyperrealistic) style. But I'll admit, there's a good chance that's from Bizarro World too. Heh.

[Mordrak]

Rob, I'm pretty sure they hired him back so he could provide the Dragon Age trailer with the homoerotic subtext that it needed to play perfectly with Electric Six's Gay Bar running in the background. That's the only possible explanation for how well it works. If you don't believe me, try it yourself and I think you'll agree.

-Tom

Unless you think that mage chick is secretly a shemale, I don't really follow that. This isn't 300, even with gaybar playing in the background.

[Tom Chick]

Mord, sometimes a spear is not just a spear.

But mainly I was goofing on Rob for actually thinking I was serious about the guy from SimCopter working on the Dragon Age trailer.

-Tom

[Mordrak]

Ahh, ok. Sometimes I jump too far into the QT3 rabbit hole. Though, it would be awesome if a fantasy rpg seriously pulled a crying game surprise at the end with a romance plot with one of the characters. It'd probably be more appropriate in a JRPG, but it'd also be predictable. And yes, I'm aware of the cross dressing in FF7.

[Killzig]

I'm still convinced Carth was a woman so I think Bioware has already covered it.

[Alex Hopkinson]

Ahh, ok. Sometimes I jump too far into the QT3 rabbit hole. Though, it would be awesome if a fantasy rpg seriously pulled a crying game surprise at the end with a romance plot with one of the characters. It'd probably be more appropriate in a JRPG, but it'd also be predictable. And yes, I'm aware of the cross dressing in FF7.

There's a Japanese anime character designer (the guy who did Gundam SEED's people designs) who uses the same face for everyone, man and woman alike, and only differentiates between characters by their hair. Sounds like you've described their dream job...

[Lizard_King]

There's a Japanese anime character designer (the guy who did Gundam SEED's people designs) who uses the same face for everyone, man and woman alike, and only differentiates between characters by their hair. Sounds like you've described their dream job...

What do you mean "a"? I thought it was in the job description.

[Vlork]

Hey, look! More Marilyn Manson and people running swords through each other! (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/49796.html) I guess Bioware's sticking with the SUPER DARK marketing campaign...

[Adree]

Hey, look! More Marilyn Manson and people running swords through each other! (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/49796.html) I guess Bioware's sticking with the SUPER DARK marketing campaign...

Amusing that that one has the radio edit "this is the new hit".

[Midnight Son]

Hey, look! More Marilyn Manson and people running swords through each other! (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/49796.html) I guess Bioware's sticking with the SUPER DARK marketing campaign...

Looks like I'll have to shave my head, grow a beard and cover my body with tattoos before I'm allowed to buy it.

[Eightball]

Hey, look! More Marilyn Manson and people running swords through each other! (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/49796.html) I guess Bioware's sticking with the SUPER DARK marketing campaign...

At least this time it looks pretty....

[frank austin]

At least this time it looks pretty....

Pretty what? Pretty covered in a layer of plastic? Pretty shiny?

I can't believe they keep releasing these things. I hope it works for them on some level.

[unbongwah]

Looks like I'll have to shave my head, grow a beard and cover my body with tattoos before I'm allowed to buy it.
It's actually a lot easier than that (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/8/6/) to qualify...

[Rob_Merritt]

Hey, look! More Marilyn Manson and people running swords through each other! (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/49796.html) I guess Bioware's sticking with the SUPER DARK marketing campaign...

Yeah the game is now a bargin bin purchase at best.

[unbongwah]

I'm always bemused and perplexed by people who let marketing sway their purchasing decisions, rather than - say - reviews by people whose opinions you trust.

[Aeon221]

I'm always bemused and perplexed by people who let marketing sway their purchasing decisions, rather than - say - reviews by people whose opinions you trust.

Advertising works. Especially when it's incredibly bad advertising that was ok'd by the folks making the product.

Since we're expecting these folks to deliver a coherent and enjoyable experience, with a high degree of focus on the quality of story and atmosphere, it's kind of distressing that they're releasing such utter tripe.

I'm personally waiting to hear more, but I doubt I'll grab it immediately myself. I'd like my creative story time experiences to not come from folks that think Marilyn Manson is the height of edgy and cool.

[stusser]

It's bioware. I'd probably buy a "barbie pony dress-up adventures" game, if bioware made it.

[Stridergg]

I'm always bemused and perplexed by people who let marketing sway their purchasing decisions, rather than - say - reviews by people whose opinions you trust.

Yep, it makes a lot of sense to NOT play a game because of a bad trailer. /sarcasm

I guess they figure that old(er) guys will buy the game anyway because it's Bioware, so with these trailers they are trying to convince the younger audience to buy it as well.

[Rob_Merritt]

I'm always bemused and perplexed by people who let marketing sway their purchasing decisions, rather than - say - reviews by people whose opinions you trust.

Well it is marking's job to sell me on their product and if everything they are doing is convincing me to not buy their product, I'm thinking I should just go with that feeling.

[stusser]

If bioware produced an edutainment title evangelizing the book of mormon through song and dance, I would probably buy it. Hell, I'd preorder at gamestop.

[Aeon221]

It's bioware. I'd probably buy a "barbie pony dress-up adventures" game, if bioware made it.

Let's be honest. Everyone here would buy a Barbie Horse Adventure game, regardless of who made it.

Heck, half the programmers on this forum are probably working on their own personal version of BHA. It's just that important.

[Gordon Cameron]

Geez, if being a Bioware fan makes me "older," I shudder to think what being an Ultima fan means...

/hobbles off to catch the early bird special for breakfast

[Vlork]

I still actually have a lot of hope for Dragon Age. There's a huge contrast between the actual gameplay footage that I've seen and the "edgy" Manson trailers. That said, I'm surprised that they're sticking with this goofy campaign after their last attempt prompted near universal disgust from their target audience. I guess it's like Stridergg said - they must figure that Bioware fans will buy the game no matter what, so if they can pick up a few 14-year-olds along the way by talking about how "mature" it is, why not?

[Angie Gallant]

This trailer is less awful than the previous one, but still doing nothing to make me want to play the damn thing.

[unbongwah]

Well it is marking's job to sell me on their product and if everything they are doing is convincing me to not buy their product, I'm thinking I should just go with that feeling.
Yes, but that's marketing: good, bad, or mediocre, it's usually not done by the folks who actually, y'know, made the game. It's generally helpful to wait until reviewers you trust get their hands on it and can weigh in on the game's merits and flaws.

I just find it funny that, for a game which is months away from release and supposedly dozens of hours long, you let a one-minute pre-rendered cinematic be the deciding factor in whether or not it's a day-1 purchase, that's all. :-)

bad marketing != bad game

[Rob_Merritt]

bad marketing != bad game

BUT often bad marketing does equal no sale. If the review come out and say it doesn't look like a total suck feast (and it does) then I might reconsider buying it later when its cheaper. Its not one minute of cgi and ass music. They annouced this game five years ago and in all the previews, sneak peaks, and ads not a single good thing about it has been show other than you can make the camera work somewhat like their older games.

[Midnight Son]

They need to make a trailer for us old farts who like gameplay even more than being "edgy."

[Sarkus]

As much as I dislike this marketing approach (and we're not the only ones from what the response on the official boards looks like once again), it's way too early to be making a buying decision on this game. It won't be out for several months (probably Oct/Nov release) and they have plenty of time to show the depth of the game. I suspect what is going on is that EA wants to make sure the "action and violence" crowd sees this game. I don't know if it'll actually work, but I've followed the official boards closely enough to currently think Dragon Age is a legitimate attempt at a deep RPG.

[unbongwah]

They annouced this game five years ago and in all the previews, sneak peaks, and ads not a single good thing about it has been show other than you can make the camera work somewhat like their older games.
If nothing about DA has caught your fancy yet, I doubt a 1-minute trailer is going to sway you either - even if it didn't suck. I've read quite a few DA previews, particularly in recent months: I have a few qualms and gripes, but overall I'm looking forward to it.

[BleedTheFreak]

Wait, what? You guys didn't like that trailer? Man, I thought it was sweet!

Now, mind you, I realize the game will not (thankfully) play like that. I'm personally going to be playing from the BG style camera the ENTIRE GAME (wish we'd get more gameplay footage/screenshots from that view) and I'm in it for the (hopefully) deep RPG/character mechanics and the story.

That being said, I really LIKED this trailer and thought it was tremendous fun.

[stusser]

I would buy a Bioware game consisting of nothing but just over an hour of 1992-style postage stamp sized 10fps "full motion video" depicting inbred white supremicist skinheads denying the holocaust via ineptly adapted off-key broadway showtunes.

[Andrew Mayer]

So how many of you die-hards purchased the Sonic RPG?

[Robert Sharp]

I'm not a diehard, but I've heard that's a good game. I just have too many other things to play in order to pick it up, or I would. Bioware has a good rep for a reason. It's not like everything they do is perfect (I didn't like ME, for example, although it was still a good game for many people), but I perk up when I see the name. I'll wait for some reviews on this one, but it won't take much to convince me to buy. I'm really looking forward to it.

[stusser]

So how many of you die-hards purchased the Sonic RPG?
Yeah, I skipped that one.

[frank austin]

Yeah, I skipped that one.

Your joke finally paid off.

[stusser]

*bows*

[frank austin]

Shacknews isn't impressed. (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58986)


After getting my hands on the Xbox 360 version, outfitted with a prototype interface, that question was answered soundly: it plays fine. Three of the face buttons are mapped to spells, and the left trigger acts as an alt-toggle, offering six mappings to the PC version's ten. One bumper key takes over healing duty, leaving only a three-button disparity between the two builds.

Unfortunately, beyond the controls, I came away from the Dragon Age E3 demo feeling oversold--particularly on its sexuality--and ultimately underwhelmed.

The presentation began with lead designer Mike Laidlaw spending ten minutes explaining how players can have sex in the game. There was no lead-up to this segment, mind you. This was the headline topic. This was the new shit.

There's more at the link, but the last bit summarizes well.


But in creating what is essentially a sex minigame with Dragon Age, BioWare is fully entering territory that I'm not sure it can pull off. Sex in games is still in the pubescent stage. Hammy voice acting and stiff 3D acting make for awkward, pimply approximations of intimacy. One can only hope these early efforts lead to eventual maturity. In the meantime, they can be painful to watch.

Anyway, the remaining few minutes of the demo were relegated to the reveal of the first dragon in Dragon Age. It was an impressive fight, but I've never doubted BioWare's ability to create an engaging fantasy combat system. It's the engaging fantasy world that I have yet to see evidence of.

[Hugin]

If nothing about DA has caught your fancy yet, I doubt a 1-minute trailer is going to sway you either - even if it didn't suck.

Rebuttal: If the Dragon Age marketing people released something (in its setting) equivalent to that recent Old Republic trailer, I'd finally be a little excited. And I've been meh on all things Star Wars since KOTOR 1.

[Mordrak]

I wonder why they are selling sex so heavily (beyond the typical T&A aspects that sell to teens). It seems like they are setting themselves up for disaster.

[Jakub]

I think it's obvious what to expect.

A kick-ass Baldur's Gate-style RPG, with some awkward sex and a terrible marketing campaign that focuses on that stuff rather than the actual strengths of the game. It's been a decade since we had a great game in this vein and I am baffled as to why EA or BioWare marketing decided it would focus on everything but the gameplay.

I think we're mistaken, however, by treating this campaign as if it was thought up or agreed upon unanimously by everyone at BioWare. Let's not forget how companies work, and that this may simply be some lickspittle marketing manager who's trying to make a name for himself with his new bosses at EA for all we know.

Then again, the presence of a second such trailer does weaken that theory.

[Roy Ziegler]

Or it could be a not-so-kick-ass Neverwinter Nights style RPG with bad and awkward sex scenes and horrible marketing.

[Jakub]

NWN was a great game. Weak original campaign, but a great game.

However, Dragon Age is in the vein of Baldur's Gate, not NWN.

[Roy Ziegler]

I thought it was complete shit. Apples and oranges, I suppose.

[Gabe Lewis]

NWN was a great game. Weak original campaign, but a great game.

However, Dragon Age is in the vein of Baldur's Gate, not NWN.


I pretty much tuned out NWN when they decided to blame evil doings on a secret society/cult. If I never play another Fantasy game with an Brotherhood of Evil Shadow Cultists it will be too soon.

[Sarkus]

I think it's obvious what to expect.

A kick-ass Baldur's Gate-style RPG, with some awkward sex and a terrible marketing campaign that focuses on that stuff rather than the actual strengths of the game. It's been a decade since we had a great game in this vein and I am baffled as to why EA or BioWare marketing decided it would focus on everything but the gameplay.

I think we're mistaken, however, by treating this campaign as if it was thought up or agreed upon unanimously by everyone at BioWare. Let's not forget how companies work, and that this may simply be some lickspittle marketing manager who's trying to make a name for himself with his new bosses at EA for all we know.

Then again, the presence of a second such trailer does weaken that theory.

I think a lot of people assumed it was an EA or marketing drone thing, but the vocal developers on the official boards, including the lead writer (who is very active there) have gone beyond what you would expect in trying to defend the "new sh*t" approach. I don't think they would do that unless they thought it was the correct approach. It's honestly been a long time since I've seen a dev tell hard core fans that gaming is a business first and art second. :-)

[Dhruin]

I think it's obvious what to expect.

A kick-ass Baldur's Gate-style RPG, with some awkward sex and a terrible marketing campaign that focuses on that stuff rather than the actual strengths of the game. It's been a decade since we had a great game in this vein and I am baffled as to why EA or BioWare marketing decided it would focus on everything but the gameplay.

I agree. If they keep this approach, they run the risk of actually getting the segment they are actively marketing to - who will hate it as slow and "old-school". In the meantime, it feels just a bit desperate to me. It's just marketing but...

[Rob_Merritt]

"I've never doubted BioWare's ability to create an engaging fantasy combat system."

Actually thats the one area that I would doubt Bioware.

[Miramon]

Actually thats the one area that I would doubt Bioware.

Yeah. KotOR? Lame combat system. Jade Empire? Lame combat system. Mass Effect? Well, not as bad as those two, but still not very good, and since the weapon/loot system was so horrible, that weakened the combat system too.

[Wallapuctus]

You're all saying unless they base it on the D&D rules they fail?

If you look at it objectively I really don't think Baldur's Gate or NWN were that much better. The D&D rules, especially computer abstractions of them, are full of exploits and power combos.

Bioware games have always stood on their story. I'm not buying it for an awesome tactical simulation or innovative inventory management system. Those things would be nice but really we buy these games to play interactive novels.

[peacedog]

I don't know if Bioware can really pull sex off or not. But they kind of suck at morality, so I kind of doubt it.

But that preview didn't really talk much about the combat, which is what I'd rather hear about.

[unbongwah]

Rebuttal: If the Dragon Age marketing people released something (in its setting) equivalent to that recent Old Republic trailer, I'd finally be a little excited. And I've been meh on all things Star Wars since KOTOR 1.
Sure, a great trailer can build enthusiasm while a bad one can sap it, but I tend to presume (perhaps erroneously) that Qt3 folks are a little more objective and hype-resistant than most gamers. The new SW:TOR trailer was cool while the last couple of DA trailers were weaksauce, but none of them told us anything about what it's actually going to be like to play either of them. And that's ultimately the only thing which really matters, right?

As for combat mechanics, I actually thought KOTOR's combat was the most fun of all Bioware games - which admittedly may be damning with faint praise. [Disclaimer: I loathe AD&D, which doubtless affected my enjoyment of BG; and I'm a sucker for lightsabers and Force powers, which probably blinds me to KOTOR's faults.]

My two biggest concerns with DA so far are: (A) I'm bored of generic pseudo-medieval European fantasy settings, so nothing I've seen of DA's world has really engaged me; and (B) that by "dark & gritty" Bioware means they're shooting for George R.R. Martin, but will end up more Robert Newcomb (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=52761).

[Robert Sharp]

Sex and morality aren't the same thing, are they? Still, I think you are right that it will be awkward. As for combat, I liked the KOTOR system better than ME, but I have to agree that none of them are great. I thought the BG2 combat was OK, but NWN, JE, etc. were all pretty bad. I'm really not sure why Bioware is so bad at the combat. The character development is usually interesting, and the stories are good.

Maybe realtime party combat is just incredibly hard. What game has done it well? I can't think of any.

[Jakub]

I think a lot of people assumed it was an EA or marketing drone thing, but the vocal developers on the official boards, including the lead writer (who is very active there) have gone beyond what you would expect in trying to defend the "new sh*t" approach. I don't think they would do that unless they thought it was the correct approach. It's honestly been a long time since I've seen a dev tell hard core fans that gaming is a business first and art second. :-)
The natural reaction once you fuck up is to defend yourself.

[Brian Seiler]

they kind of suck at morality

I hear this a lot. Compared to who?

[Murbella]

Yeah. KotOR? Lame combat system. Jade Empire? Lame combat system. Mass Effect? Well, not as bad as those two, but still not very good, and since the weapon/loot system was so horrible, that weakened the combat system too.
Uh... i thought kotor had a good combat system. Inventory system was poor in that it was a pain to find anything (mostly due to the console inventory interface), but there was a good number of items and such.

Jade empire also had a very fun and engaging combat system that brought more action and control to an rpg. It did kind of stink that there was no real items, but it was nice getting new abilities and upgrading them and the game was fun enough that it didn't realy matter. It helps to think of jade empire's party members as just buffs though (they all give different special buffs to you) as they're 90% useless in combat even on the lower difficulties.

Mass effect kind of suffered from all of the weapons of a certain type acting the same and extreme weapon balance issues, but the combat was quite fun i thought, a near perfect example of marrying a fps to an rpg. The upgrade system they had was also pretty interesting, although there could have been more and more varried upgrades. I guess one of the major problems was the special spectre weapons though since unless you got VERY high level, you'd never upgrade them and you could get them pretty early in the game. oh, but i hated the vehicle combat.

Also, i thought bg2 had a good combat system as it wasn't really real time as we see it now. it involved a lot of pausing and handing out orders then pausing again and so on.

Nwn2 also had a good combat system, but honestly, it did suffer the same annoyance found in jade empire, that your party members are basically 1/10 as useful as you.

If everyone thinks all of these rpgs have lame combat, i'd be interested to hear just what is a good rpg that has good combat.

Also: while the vast majority of games out there believe the only way to be evil is to act like an ass and steal people's lunch money, i thought Nwn2:motb (an expansion that was significantly better than nwn2, which i also enjoyed) was quite good at the issues of morality.

[peacedog]

Sex and morality aren't the same thing, are they? Still, I think you are right that it will be awkward.

Dunno if you are talking to me specifically; no they aren't but they're both more difficult to get right than basic plot elements, IMO. At least to make them worthwhile.



Maybe realtime party combat is just incredibly hard. What game has done it well? I can't think of any.

Well a problem in the IE games of course was D&D isn't a real time system. I think there are things not suited to real time systems, like D&D's spell casting times, the need to target a spell before it's done being cast, and god forsaken touch spells. God I hate touch spells. And of course healing spells- the most important casting staple - are touch spells. Great. The changing tactical situation was more of a problem for healing than anything else, IMO (at least there were direct-target range spells), since it's hard to anticipate when to heal and often a spell comes too late. And D&D healing spells were never really adequate enough, in terms of output, until you got to heal.

The probably I had with Kotor 2 (never played the first) is that everything I know about lightsabers tells me they're way cooler than +5 swords. But lightsabers were still mostly +5 swords in that game. I thought the combat in ME was ok, but it sure had it's problems (getting wingmen to use powers and such worked well, but it didn't straddle the line between action and "turn based" comfortably IMO).

A trend in RPGs with real time tactical combat that I don't care for is shrinking party sizes. I know why it's happening, but nobody has really compensated for the tactical tradeoffs. It's interesting how other systems have tried to deal with some of the problems found in IE games, but I never felt like the answers were wholly adequate (like in battle healing).

[Kevin Grey]

I hear this a lot. Compared to who?

They tend to be very binary- Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil with no inbetween. Jade Empire was particularly egregious in this facet since they played up the whole "Closed Fist" idea as not necessarilly bad, just pragmatic. But in execution it was the typical "Hahahaha I'm so eeeviiillll!" stuff. I would give them a pass on KOTOR because the SW universe tends to gravitate toward binary good and evil but then again I thought Obisidian did a fantastic job of displaying a bit more "gray" SW universe in KOTOR 2.

However I was quite pleased with the morality in Mass Effect. It felt like what they intended the system in Jade Empire to be. While I was predominantly good, I was still able to select the "bad" option occasionally and have it fit with my view of the character.