Dragon Age Countdown... [Archive] - Page 3

Equisilus

08-29-2008, 03:43 PM

I'm so used to non-voiced PCs that I don't think it'll even be noticeable in DA:O and I understand fully why they didn't put any PC VO in the game (due to the variety of PCs there can be).

It's too bad that it'd be a massive amount of extra work to put in a default male/female VO for the PC for those that wanted it. It could have been toggled off unless the player manually turned it on, and it could have given those that wanted the VO something to use. From a pure player perspective (wanting whatever makes the player experience better without regard to costs or time) that'd have been a good compromise.

Dhruin

08-29-2008, 05:35 PM

Thanks for the quotes, Derek. I'm dubious that the approach will work very well if Dragon Age is going for a cinematic approach but I'd love to be proven wrong. I thought Mass Effect's way of handling conversations was an enormous step forward and it's disheartening not to see it carried forward into Dragon Age.

I thought that was Gaider's whole point - that DA:O isn't prioritising a cinematic approach (insofar as it restricts other options)?

Count me as someone who thought Mass Effect was OK for what it was but I'm happy not to have a PC voiceover.

Kevin Grey

08-29-2008, 06:50 PM

I thought that was Gaider's whole point - that DA:O isn't prioritising a cinematic approach (insofar as it restricts other options)?

I'm going off of the footage that was linked- that cutscene was far more "cinematic" in terms of NPC animation, camera movement, etc than equivalent material in say KOTOR or NWN2 so it was more jarring to me when it flipped over to the text window for dialogue selection and the player character just stands there like a rod and doesn't say anything. The PC didn't feel like a part of the scene at all.

hong

08-31-2008, 12:00 AM

I think there's two ways that voiceovers can work well.

- The old-style way, where everything is delivered via text, and only small soundbites and one-liners are voiced. This is for the PC, party members, and NPCs in general. This is what BG and BG2 did.

- The full-on cinematic way like in Mass Effect, where everything is voiced. This trades off flexibility for impact. You don't get as many choices, but man, does it draw you in.

The compromise way is to have VOs for everyone except the main character, which is what Jade Empire did. The drawback to this approach is that dialogues end up sounding like someone talking on the phone. You only get one half of the conversation, which sounds jarring.

There is also the issue raised above about calling the NPC "the Grey Warden", which sounds forced after a while.

Bill Dungsroman

08-31-2008, 12:07 AM

Ah, thanks, that makes sense now.

Imagine the things he'll know in 2011!

Xaroc

09-03-2008, 10:33 AM

Check it out. Our own Jason McMaster interviewing David Gaider about Dragon Age:

http://www.crispygamer.com/interviews/2008-09-02/a-farewell-to-licenses.aspx

olaf

09-03-2008, 11:46 AM

No bandits running around in glass armor!

Telefrog

09-03-2008, 12:00 PM

Jason McMaster

09-03-2008, 12:09 PM

I didn't get a NWN feel from it at all, but that's me.

Sarkus

09-03-2008, 12:13 PM

I saw this demo at PAX and while I'm a big fan of NWN and BioWare in general, I was a bit disappointed at the showing. It just looked like NWN 2.5 (without a D&D license) more than anything. Even the UI looked like a colorized version of NWN's.

I'm excited by the dialogue I heard, which seemed very reminiscent of the writing in George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series.

You'll be happy to hear that David Gaider, the lead writer, said Song is one of his inspirations in an interview he did with GWJ back at GenCon.

There's also a thread over on the official site for the game over how "generic fantasy" the game is. Gaider insists that there are unique elements that just aren't going to be apparent in the limited material they've released so far. So the generic looking nature may be misleading, but obviously we will have to wait and see.

Anders Hallin

09-03-2008, 12:33 PM

Wow, I didn't know that hearing a book was an inspiration could bum me out so much.
Fucking Song of Ice and Fire.
Party OFF.

Telefrog

09-03-2008, 12:52 PM

You'll be happy to hear that David Gaider, the lead writer, said Song is one of his inspirations in an interview he did with GWJ back at GenCon.

There's also a thread over on the official site for the game over how "generic fantasy" the game is. Gaider insists that there are unique elements that just aren't going to be apparent in the limited material they've released so far. So the generic looking nature may be misleading, but obviously we will have to wait and see.

The generic fantasy dispute isn't really a concern of mine. Heck, how much more generic can you get with D&D? My concern was that everything (UI, menus, overall design of characters and objects, interactivity of the actors in combat, even the animations) looked very much like an iterative build of NWN. I know it's supposed to be a completely new engine, but I couldn't tell by watching the walkthrough.

I guess that can be a positive in that so many fans of NWN were turned off by the sequel, but I really expected more of a difference.

Jason McMaster

09-03-2008, 01:04 PM

Graphically it's much better than NWN 2

Sarkus

09-03-2008, 01:05 PM

Wow, I didn't know that hearing a book was an inspiration could bum me out so much.
Fucking Song of Ice and Fire.
Party OFF.

I've been trying to read Song lately so I see your point, but I take it to mean that the story will be more complicated and have some political aspects to it and that major characters might be killed off, which I don't see as necessarily a bad thing. I guess it depends on what you don't like about Song.

Equisilus

09-03-2008, 04:01 PM

Wow, I didn't know that hearing a book was an inspiration could bum me out so much.
Fucking Song of Ice and Fire.
Party OFF.

I think part of that "inspired by" talk comes from some of the official forum chatter where people wanted a "dark" fantasy with unexpected political and personal twists happening to the characters throughout, and that chatter always brought up Song as an example of where to go. I don't think it was first mentioned by any Bio reps as being inspirational in any way. I feel that any mention of it now is more a response to that sort of talk rather than a "I read Song and it inspired me to write DA this way". Of course, I don't know what goes on in Bio devs' minds...and that's a good thing.

For my part, I'm quite happy if DA:O's story takes some lessons from Song.

Sarkus

09-03-2008, 05:58 PM

I think part of that "inspired by" talk comes from some of the official forum chatter where people wanted a "dark" fantasy with unexpected political and personal twists happening to the characters throughout, and that chatter always brought up Song as an example of where to go. I don't think it was first mentioned by any Bio reps as being inspirational in any way. I feel that any mention of it now is more a response to that sort of talk rather than a "I read Song and it inspired me to write DA this way". Of course, I don't know what goes on in Bio devs' minds...and that's a good thing.

For my part, I'm quite happy if DA:O's story takes some lessons from Song.

As I mentioned above, Gaider specifically mentions Song in an interview he did with Gamers With Jobs a few weeks ago at GenCon. I'm not sure how else to interpret his comments than to say it inspired him to some degree.

Derek French

09-03-2008, 06:55 PM

Wow, I didn't know that hearing a book was an inspiration could bum me out so much.
Fucking Song of Ice and Fire.
Party OFF.

Over many, many interviews, a large number of fantasy novels have been quoted as inspiration for Dragon Age. SoIaF seems to be one that, no matter that 10 other novels are listed right beside it, people gravitate to with either love or hate.

There are a number of writers and designers on Dragon Age with a range of inspirations. Don't get hung up on the mention of one novel on a game that you haven't played yet.

Chris Nahr

09-04-2008, 04:08 AM

I'm pretty sure Dragon Age won't feature graphic hard-core sex between brothers and sisters so Anders can rest assured on that account...

Jason: Nice interview, and I'm glad to hear that DA won't have Oblivion-like monster scaling. What they're planning sounds more like Might & Magic. I hope they go through with it:

We've been playing with this idea of "gateway" encounters. So that when you're on your way to an area, you might run into a group of monsters and those monsters would be indicative of what you'll face. That way you can decide to go forward or not.

Jason McMaster

09-04-2008, 07:45 AM

I'm pretty sure Dragon Age won't feature graphic hard-core sex between brothers and sisters so Anders can rest assured on that account...

Jason: Nice interview, and I'm glad to hear that DA won't have Oblivion-like monster scaling. What they're planning sounds more like Might & Magic. I hope they go through with it:

Thanks Chris, I wanted to include more but due to space and the fact that my interviews are always really long, I had to cut a lot of non-DA related info. I think I'll put it on my site, or some of it. He's a good interview.

Eightball

09-04-2008, 09:18 AM

Thanks Chris, I wanted to include more but due to space and the fact that my interviews are always really long, I had to cut a lot of non-DA related info. I think I'll put it on my site, or some of it. He's a good interview.

That was a very good interview Jason. Thanks.

Definately looking forward to this one.

Equisilus

09-04-2008, 03:40 PM

As I mentioned above, Gaider specifically mentions Song in an interview he did with Gamers With Jobs a few weeks ago at GenCon. I'm not sure how else to interpret his comments than to say it inspired him to some degree.

I got that. What I'm saying is that Song has been mentioned for years on the official forums as something that fans wanted DA to match. I don't think Bio brought it up first. It's only since all that discussion that it's been mentioned as being inspiration for the DA story. What I was proposing was that forumites created the buzz about Song in relation to DA and Bio writers followed up on that chat, not that DA was originally storied along the lines of Song and it just so happened that fans wanted it that way.

I could be misremembering the history of the comments, though. DA's been in development an awful long time, after all. I think that putting too much emphasis on it being inspired by Song would be a mistake, because I feel that talk about the books was a reaction to the fans wanting it that way.

nabeel

09-16-2008, 06:28 PM

Coupla new vids just went up, Shacknews link (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/54779).

Vesper

09-16-2008, 07:27 PM

Direct links to HD vids on GameVideos:
Part 1 (http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/21454)
Part 2 (http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/21455)

These appear to be the exact same demo I saw at GenCon.

olaf

09-17-2008, 05:38 AM

Does this have a release date yet?

Jason McMaster

09-17-2008, 05:49 AM

not a hard one. Q1 09 is what I was told.

Killzig

09-17-2008, 06:19 AM

I really hope that I get to gut the guy in the gold armor at some point in the story.

Lizard_King

10-16-2008, 07:35 PM

So, it's now being released in q4 09 for ps3/360 (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6199512.html?part=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6199512). Good news for me, I can wait.

Chris Nahr

10-17-2008, 02:41 AM

That would be Bioware's first PS3 release. But the PC version arrives half a year earlier so I'll get that one anyway.

Equisilus

10-17-2008, 04:16 PM

It's still going to be a PC-buy for me (especially with my newly upgraded system), but I'm all for devs going multi-platform with their games. The only thing I hope they watch for is simplifying the UI and control scheme (like ME, Oblivion, KotOR, etc) so they can have an easier time doing the crossover. Hopefully, the fact that the PC game comes first will mean they'll be reworking the UI/controls for the consoles and won't need to do any advance work to make the PC more consolish. It's usually when the game goes from console to PC or if it has concurrent development that the PC game looks obviously console-like.

Robert Sharp

10-17-2008, 05:08 PM

Sarkus

10-17-2008, 05:15 PM

What? I thought this was squarely aimed at PC only. I'm with Equisilius. I'm now a bit concerned that they'll try to make it more console-like. I have nothing against console games. I love 'em. But I also appreciate the difference a PC game can have, and I was really hoping this would be a true PC game.

It's definately a concern and I don't think Bioware has done a very good job of dealing with the console fears. When the console port idea first was raised, back at E3, the response on the official boards was basically "don't worry, we're doing the PC game first, then we'll worry about potential console versions." And they denied there being any work on a console version even going on. Now we've got screenshots, a release date goal, and talk that they've kept the consoles in mind as they've developed the game. All that in 3-4 months.

That all said, I don't expect the PC version to be in any way "gimped" or whatever console haters think, but it is disappointing that they've handled the whole issue this poorly. Of course, this game has plenty of examples of bad PR handling already so we shouldn't be surprised.

mkozlows

10-17-2008, 05:22 PM

I think Bioware is destined to piss me off. Back when they released KOTOR, I was all irritated that they were releasing it first on a stupid console and I had to wait to get the real PC version. And now I'm irritated that they're releasing Dragon Age first on the stupid PC and I have to wait to get the real 360 version.

Dhruin

10-17-2008, 07:12 PM

I'm not surprised they've gone multiplatform but I do hope they do better than the past with the interface. I realise past examples are all console-first but in my opinion, BioWare has some of the worst interface conversions around.

Kevin Grey

10-17-2008, 07:43 PM

It's definately a concern and I don't think Bioware has done a very good job of dealing with the console fears. When the console port idea first was raised, back at E3, the response on the official boards was basically "don't worry, we're doing the PC game first, then we'll worry about potential console versions." And they denied there being any work on a console version even going on. Now we've got screenshots, a release date goal, and talk that they've kept the consoles in mind as they've developed the game. All that in 3-4 months.

I'm not too worried- they've shown the PC version fairly extensively now and I can't say that anything in it jumps out as any way gimped or compromised to make it gamepad accessible. It's pretty much a straight variation of their Baldur's Gate and NWN interfaces. If anything, I would be worried about the console versions somewhow being compromised.

Equisilus

10-18-2008, 04:59 AM

I'm not too worried- they've shown the PC version fairly extensively now and I can't say that anything in it jumps out as any way gimped or compromised to make it gamepad accessible. It's pretty much a straight variation of their Baldur's Gate and NWN interfaces. If anything, I would be worried about the console versions somewhow being compromised.

We've already seen the short list-like inventory system similar to that in ME appear in DA (looks like you can get about 10-12 items on the list on screen at once). I'd say that's a pretty good indication they are already simplifying the UI to capitalize on easy console conversion, at least to some degree.

Equisilus

02-03-2009, 02:39 PM

Oh, that's just great: announced today (http://dragonage.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=666476&forum=135) that DA:O is being delayed to the last half of 2009. There goes another game planned for early 2009 playing. Now, all I have left is Divinity 2 for first half (possibly) of 2009. If that one doesn't fly, I won't have bought a new PC game since FO3. PC gaming is pathetic these days. Either that, or I need to broaden my interests beyond TBS, RPGs, and Adventure.

stusser

02-03-2009, 02:54 PM

Dang, I was going to start a new thread with the subject "Dragon Age delayed due to PC piracy", to stir shit up. But you beat me to it.

Adam Altmann

02-03-2009, 02:58 PM

PC gaming is pathetic these days. Either that, or I need to broaden my interests beyond TBS, RPGs, and Adventure.

Dude! Empire: Total War in less than 30 days! Unless you meant Turn-Based Sports, or Two Big Sticks, or something...

John Reynolds

02-03-2009, 03:10 PM

That and Dawn of War 2. HAWX, Demigod, and a few others.

Eightball

02-03-2009, 03:11 PM

God...damn...it.

Rock8man

02-03-2009, 03:14 PM

I can't say that I'm surprised. When a game gets as close to release as Dragon Age supposedly was, you see a lot more previews, trailers, etc. out there than is available so far for Dragon Age. When big AAA-games get close to release, they "feel" close, and Dragon Age didn't "feel" close yet.

mkozlows

02-03-2009, 03:36 PM

I'm honestly kinda relieved, because Bioware RPGs are the things that make me buy new hardware (they're why I got an Xbox 1), and I was really waffling on buying a gaming-capable computer or waiting an extra six months. And now, no waffling needed.

BleedTheFreak

02-03-2009, 03:48 PM

Blood Bowl should be out around June, that should be a good way to kill time for Dragon Age.

Equisilus

02-03-2009, 03:50 PM

Dude! Empire: Total War in less than 30 days! Unless you meant Turn-Based Sports, or Two Big Sticks, or something...

Odd, but that's listed as Historical Real-Time Strategy at Gamespot, at least. I've left real-time behind, as I just can't get into it anymore. World in Conflict was an attempt just recently (having received it for free with my core2quad) but no-go. Ah well.

Guess I'll seek out more PS3 games to try. And there's always TQ to keep going back to.

Sarkus

02-03-2009, 03:53 PM

EA's Riccitiello apparently admitted in an earnings report conference call today that the delay is for marketing reasons and not because it wouldn't have been done on time. What it amounts to is that they are delaying it so they can release the console versions at the same time and share the advertising burden thusly.

It's also interesting to consider what this means for the Mass Effect sequel, which was announced today as "multi platform." Joystiq has a piece on the Mass Effect news, but it isn't clear from their report whether ME is officially not coming out in 2009 or not, though that could be what they were trying to say.

Aeon221

02-03-2009, 03:54 PM

In the discussion thread, the community relations guy says it'll now be a simultaneous PC and Console release.

SUCK IT DOWN, PC'ers! Enjoy the sweet sweet flavor of your d0me!

Rock8man

02-03-2009, 03:56 PM

Console release of Dragon Age? Wow, I didn't even know it was going to get a console version.

Sarkus

02-03-2009, 04:07 PM

Console release of Dragon Age? Wow, I didn't even know it was going to get a console version.

Yeah, that came out around E3 when Riccitiello "accidently" mentioned it in an interview. Then they later said it would be a holiday 2009 release, but they were focused on the PC game.

On a related note, Riccitiello also "accidently" revealed that Bioware was doing a Star Wars related MMO for LucasArts well before the official announcement. Either the guy is an idiot or this is all part of some sort of clever (in his mind, at least) approach to being a CEO of a public company.

mkozlows

02-03-2009, 04:07 PM

Console release of Dragon Age? Wow, I didn't even know it was going to get a console version.

This thread, two pages and six months ago.

02-03-2009, 06:15 PM

In the discussion thread, the community relations guy says it'll now be a simultaneous PC and Console release.

SUCK IT DOWN, PC'ers! Enjoy the sweet sweet flavor of your d0me!
Heh, wouldn't be surprised if they PC version ends up getting another 'spontaneous' delay and comes out after the console versions. See Mirror's Edge.

Aeon221

02-03-2009, 06:19 PM

Heh, wouldn't be surprised if they PC version ends up getting another 'spontaneous' delay and comes out after the console versions. See Mirror's Edge.

Now that would be a Roman Holiday.

Skipper

02-03-2009, 06:45 PM

I was sad to hear of the delay on the EA earnings statements. I personally think that's a bad decision, but I'm not a game publisher so what do I know. EA also mentioned Sims 3 delay and one other title. It didn't bode well for gaming this year.

Jakub

02-03-2009, 06:46 PM

A bad decision to delay? Why? You're going to get a better game out of it.

Tim James

02-03-2009, 06:48 PM

Release it now with no marketing, we'll all buy it, and then later this year they can pretend it's a brand new release. Everyone wins.

Skipper

02-03-2009, 07:02 PM

A bad decision to delay? Why? You're going to get a better game out of it.

They always say that ... but if it's just to match console release then I would suggest no, it's probably going to be the same game, maybe slightly less buggy.

Still, why delay release? Apparently to let them write up a quarter on profit to meet expectations versus one in which it will only stem a loss.

Rob_Merritt

02-03-2009, 07:54 PM

I bet you guys are right. The console version will get released first. :P

Sarkus

02-03-2009, 07:55 PM

A bad decision to delay? Why? You're going to get a better game out of it.

Not necessarily. Just because a title gets delayed doesn't mean it automatically gets more work done on it. Bioware could easily pull everyone off the PC project once they deem it "finished" (even if that's next month) and have them only work on the console version or some other project until the fall. It's certainly happened before.

roguefrog

02-03-2009, 07:58 PM

In the end, Dragon Age is still a PC game. The console version is a port in the same way KotOR, Jade Empire, and Mass Effort on the PC are ports of console games.

SpookyKG

02-03-2009, 08:17 PM

In the end, Dragon Age is still a PC game. The console version is a port in the same way KotOR, Jade Empire, and Mass Effort on the PC are ports of console games.

Yeah, I hope... I just really hate when a games UI/handling feels 'console.'

Games feel better DESIGNED for WASD+mouse.

Talorc

02-03-2009, 10:27 PM

Yeah, that came out around E3 when Riccitiello "accidently" mentioned it in an interview. Then they later said it would be a holiday 2009 release, but they were focused on the PC game.

On a related note, Riccitiello also "accidently" revealed that Bioware was doing a Star Wars related MMO for LucasArts well before the official announcement. Either the guy is an idiot or this is all part of some sort of clever (in his mind, at least) approach to being a CEO of a public company.

I suspect that Riccetiello doesn't believe that "gamers" are intelligent enough to be able to read anything beyond gamespot or IGN, like financial media or analyst reports.

It's usually during analyst calls / financial interviews that he drops these things.

Morberis

02-03-2009, 11:10 PM

So once again EA is going to try to battle it out at Christmas time with a new IP, one that once again may not have mass market appeal.

Bah...

TurinTur

02-04-2009, 12:51 AM

Odd, but that's listed as Historical Real-Time Strategy at Gamespot, at least. I've left real-time behind, as I just can't get into it anymore. World in Conflict was an attempt just recently (having received it for free with my core2quad) but no-go. Ah well.

Guess I'll seek out more PS3 games to try. And there's always TQ to keep going back to.

So... do you need the label given by Gamespot to know what type of game is Empire Total War? Do you mean you haven't tried any game in the Total War saga?

Well, you should. Just because the battles are in real time doesn't mean is a C&C or Starcraft type of game. It's more closer to a TBS than you may think.

Chris Nahr

02-04-2009, 12:59 AM

I bet you guys are right. The console version will get released first. :P

Yeah, that's what I'm expecting now, too. After all, PC gamers are all pirates and they might buy the console game if it's out first!

Kevin Grey

02-04-2009, 07:33 AM

Still, why delay release?

To combine marketing dollars?

Steel_Wind

02-04-2009, 08:15 AM

Well...consider for a moment:

You have a PC version of the game that is slated for 2nd quarter 2009 "before the end of Spring".

Translation: Dragon Age for PC was scheduled to be due out early-to-mid June.

And you had a console version of the game that was announced as due out 4th quarter of 2009, now refined by JR to somewhere after October and before end of December, 2009.

Translation: It will be off to the duplicators by no later than November 1, 2009 and should be appearing on store shelves 10-14 days later in time for Black Friday.

So now, we all know when the damn game will be coming, come hell or high water, (and probably, ready or not).

Now, assume for a moment that QA pointed to the need for some minor delay in your PC version of the game and that it might slip to July or even early August from the expected mid-June release.

Is July or August a time you want to release a major Triple A game? No, it isn't. Is that a sufficiently different aperture in time from the intended console release date that you are going to be able to get game journalists (what number are left) hyped about your PC release and then a little later hype them on the console release too? No, it isn't.

Does it make more sense from a marketing viewpoint to just spend the extra time on the PC title and release em all on or about November 10, 2009, with one massive hype fest in support of that release?

Surely, it does.

Add in the fact that now the average consumer can treat whatever version of the game they want to buy as the "original" version and not the "ported, inferior" version, and I'd say EA was making the right move.

I would point out that this will make Dragon Age easily BioWare's largest and most significant release to date. BioWare has never released a title for the PC and console at the same time. In fact, the only game BioWare has ever done where they worked on the PC port of the game themselves was Knights of the Old Republic.
(Both Jade Empire SE and Mass Effect PC were third party ports to the PC).

So, PC,360 and PS3 versions, all together at the same time. (First time for a PS3 version of a game at BioWare, too) That's a mighty Big Step up in Edmonton.

And given the ability of the good doctors to do the dog and pony show with the best of 'em in order to get people fired up about a BioWare game, it certainly seems wise to attempt to do all of that at once.

I hope there are not any significant bugs on the console side, or BioWare will be going NUTS trying to patch three versions of the same game simultaneously.

RepoMan

02-04-2009, 11:49 AM

I suspect that Riccetiello doesn't believe that "gamers" are intelligent enough to be able to read anything beyond gamespot or IGN, like financial media or analyst reports.

It's usually during analyst calls / financial interviews that he drops these things.
I don't think he's either an idiot or dismissive of gamers. I think he is fine with the gamer community feeding off the analyst call scraps. The analysts are the ones he cares about, and the gamer community going all hyperrific over his tidbits is just fine with him. I mean, what's the downside, really? Only the people who pay Too Much Attention will notice, and those people LIKE to argue about such things.

roguefrog

02-04-2009, 06:02 PM

Yeah, that's what I'm expecting now, too. After all, PC gamers are all pirates and they might buy the console game if it's out first!

Seriously, If the console version comes out BEFORE the PC version, I will eat my hat. This game has been in development for 5+ years as PC ONLY up until just recently.

Steel_Wind

02-05-2009, 07:39 AM

Seriously, If the console version comes out BEFORE the PC version, I will eat my hat. This game has been in development for 5+ years as PC ONLY up until just recently.

It was obvious that Dragon Age was always going to be on consoles: 360 and PS3, both. That info has been out there since 2005 for those who cared to look.

The BioWare Eclipse egine was the subject of comment as being designed for both the 360 and PS3 by the good doctors. There were repeated quotes concerning the Eclipse engine made by BioWare in various middleware articles aimed at developers over the course of years, the upshot of which was that the middleware in question would work with the Eclipse engine, a multi-platform "next-gen" engine.

The only title ever mentioned by BioWare that Eclipse was being developed for was DA:O.

The trade-mark applications filed for the Eclipse Engine (which is what Dragon Age uses) were also worded to cover not only a computer engine - but one for video game consoles. (Yes, I pay attention to such things. Occupational hazard. The TMA got a brief blurb on Gamespot when it was filed.).

It was a game of connect the dots, but not a very hard one. Accordingly, it's pretty clear that Eclipse was always about both the 360 and the PS3 - and that info has been out there in the wild for a very long time.

I infer that Dragon Age has been in production for both console platforms for a very long time, as well.

Sarkus

02-05-2009, 11:33 AM

It was obvious that Dragon Age was always going to be on consoles: 360 and PS3, both. That info has been out there since 2005 for those who cared to look.

The BioWare Eclipse egine was the subject of comment as being designed for both the 360 and PS3 by the good doctors. There were repeated quotes concerning the Eclipse engine made by BioWare in various middleware articles aimed at developers over the course of years, the upshot of which was that the middleware in question would work with the Eclipse engine, a multi-platform "next-gen" engine.

The only title ever mentioned by BioWare that Eclipse was being developed for was DA:O.

The trade-mark applications filed for the Eclipse Engine (which is what Dragon Age uses) were also worded to cover not only a computer engine - but one for video game consoles. (Yes, I pay attention to such things. Occupational hazard. The TMA got a brief blurb on Gamespot when it was filed.).

It was a game of connect the dots, but not a very hard one. Accordingly, it's pretty clear that Eclipse was always about both the 360 and the PS3 - and that info has been out there in the wild for a very long time.

I infer that Dragon Age has been in production for both console platforms for a very long time, as well.

Just because the engine is multi-platform capable is not proof that a given game was originally meant to be released on multi-platforms. Bioware could have intended DA to be a PC franchise when they started working on it but also wanted to a) use the engine for other things in the future and b) thought they might license the engine out to others.

All we can go on is what Bioware said back when Dragon Age was originally announced, which was that DA was meant to be a PC only franchise.

Steel_Wind

02-05-2009, 11:56 AM

Just because the engine is multi-platform capable is not proof that a given game was originally meant to be released on multi-platforms. Bioware could have intended DA to be a PC franchise when they started working on it but also wanted to a) use the engine for other things in the future and b) thought they might license the engine out to others.

True. They could have intended those things. But the facts and evidence show that they demonstrably didn't.

All we can go on is what Bioware said back when Dragon Age was originally announced, which was that DA was meant to be a PC only franchise.

What do you mean "we", paleface?

I think "we" are saying very different things, wouldn't you agree?

I'm saying the evidence that Dragon Age was going console was there to see and plain as day, long ago. If you disagree? Fine.

Aeon221

02-05-2009, 11:57 AM

blah blah blah

What do you mean "we", paleface?

blah blah blah

wut?!

Steel_Wind

02-05-2009, 12:12 PM

wut?!

it's an old joke meant to dig at someone who casually uses the word "we" when he really means "me".

Bill Cosby joke about Tonto and the Lone Ranger.

Lone Ranger: [sees the pair being surrounded by Indians ] "Tonto, we are in trouble!"

Tonto: "What do you mean we, paleface"

Evidently not that well known a joke, anymore.

DoomMunky

02-05-2009, 12:28 PM

The line I'VE always heard is, "What's this 'we' shit, white man?"

Chris Nahr

02-08-2009, 11:25 PM

Hands-on preview. (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/dragon-age-origins-hands-on) Pausable real-time party system, a variety of attack actions for each class, ranged attacks damage friendly characters, control system that seems designed for mouse & keyboard.

Equisilus

02-09-2009, 03:12 PM

If combat works as I expect, I'll be turning off the Party AI. I've always despised stupid AI rushing my characters into battle when I'm about to toss a fireball on the area, and friendly-fire damage makes it incredibly important to manage every aspect of combat. Everything will be player controlled with a bunch of pausing mixed in for near turn-based gameplay. I wonder how much tweaking they'll give the player. It'd be nice to be able to turn off friendly-fire damage if you find it detrimental to your enjoyment.

nabeel

02-12-2009, 11:54 AM

Races and Origin stories revealed. (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/57216)

As Dragon Age: Origins won't hit PC and consoles until October, at the earliest, developer BioWare is doing its best to make sure gamers don't forget about the Baldur's Gate spiritual sequel. Thus, it has revealed the RPG's six races and "origin stories."

"Each Origin Story starts the player off with a unique series of locations, characters and events that establish their motivations," explained BioWare. "The choices you made during an Origin Story will influence the way the game unfolds."

Dalish Elf
City Elf
Dwarf Commoner
Dwarf Noble
Mage
Human Noble

The two dwarf classes seem interesting.

Equis

02-12-2009, 12:13 PM

The two dwarf classes seem interesting.

The stories seem interesting, but I have to wonder about using the Elves, Dwarves and Human trinity of races. Aren't there other species to explore, aren't there other cultures to create?

Sarkus

02-12-2009, 12:17 PM

The stories seem interesting, but I have to wonder about using the Elves, Dwarves and Human trinity of races. Aren't there other species to explore, aren't there other cultures to create?

While we'd all love to see them do something different, you also have to realize this is a brand new setting (and IP) that Bioware has invested a lot into. So it should come as no surprise that they have chosen the conservative human/elf/dwarf traditional fantasy races.

unbongwah

02-12-2009, 01:13 PM

I don't recall seeing this mentioned yet: the latest issue of PC Gamer has a DA:O preview, including a more in-depth spoiler-y summary of the dwarven noble's origin.

The stories seem interesting, but I have to wonder about using the Elves, Dwarves and Human trinity of races. Aren't there other species to explore, aren't there other cultures to create?
That's been broached before: I think Bioware's rationale is they're starting with familiar tropes in order to ease everyone into DA's setting before putting their own twists on things.

I personally would've preferred to see a completely original setting rather than Yet Another Tolkienesque World - maybe riff on some non-Western source material a la Jade Empire - but I'm not the one spending a bazillionty Canuckbucks (is that even real money?) on DA, so I wasn't consulted.

Mordrak

02-12-2009, 01:19 PM

I personally would've preferred to see a completely original setting [from a different company] rather than Yet Another Tolkienesque World - maybe riff on some non-Western source material a la Jade Empire - but I'm not the one spending a bazillionty Canuckbucks (is that even real money?) on DA, so I wasn't consulted.

Fixed.

I'm sorry but Bioware has time and time again shown us their very antisceptic art direction. It's works great for D&D and Star Wars, but not so well with original concepts that require more flair.

unbongwah

02-12-2009, 01:45 PM

mkozlows

02-12-2009, 01:52 PM

I say, bring on the Generic Fantasy. There hasn't been a good BG2-style fantasy RPG since... BG2. We've had the semi-successful NWN1, the hideously awful NWN2, the dark fantasy of Morrowind, two Star Wars games, Jade Empire, space opera in Mass Effect, and post-Holocaust in Fallout 3.

Only Oblivion really comes close, and it's really very different than traditional D&D-inspired fantasy.

In fact, I wish Dragon Age was even more generic and actually had the Forgotten Realms license, because dagnabbit, I'm feeling nostalgic.

Sarkus

02-12-2009, 01:52 PM

Well, I mentioned Jade Empire to give an example of a Bioware game with a fairly original setting - or at least one which rips off something different for a change. While I enjoyed Mass Effect, I was a bit disappointed their "brand-new original setting!" felt a lot like Halo crossed with Star Wars, with maybe a little Star Trek thrown in for good measure. Similarly, while I expect to enjoy DA, I'm a little disappointed that for their first post-D&D fantasy RPG they make a world which looks an awful lot like the Forgotten Realms, only 15% edgier.

The problem is that Jade Empire didn't do all that well, relatively speaking. That's why all the talk pre-release of a franchise has never been mentioned again. Meanhwile Mass Effect has a sequel coming and Dragon Age is being set-up to hopefully launch a series.

People talk all the time about wanting original setting games, but the reality is that most original games, even those done well, don't sell that well.

unbongwah

02-12-2009, 02:40 PM

People talk all the time about wanting original setting games, but the reality is that most original games, even those done well, don't sell that well.
Quick, someone say "Psychonauts" three times!

EDIT: JE2 was rumored to be in the work for the 360, but nothing official has been announced. Keeping my fingers crossed...

Rock8man

02-12-2009, 02:46 PM

People talk all the time about wanting original setting games, but the reality is that most original games, even those done well, don't sell that well.

So true. Planescape Torment was a setting most people hadn't heard of. It was a refreshing setting, a much more interesting setting than one with dwarves and elves, and the game was incredibly good. But it didn't sell well at all.

Mordrak

02-12-2009, 02:53 PM

So true. Planescape Torment was a setting most people hadn't heard of. It was a refreshing setting, a much more interesting setting than one with dwarves and elves, and the game was incredibly good. But it didn't sell well at all.

I'd actually heard it did better than most people realize. It wasn't as big as IWD or BG though. Plus, the setting and rights are in corporate purgatory, so I doubt will ever see another planescape game though.

Alistair

02-12-2009, 03:12 PM

unbongwah

02-12-2009, 03:15 PM

Plus, the setting and rights are in corporate purgatory, so I doubt will ever see another planescape game though.
We will if these guys (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Movies.Detail&id=82) ever finish their damn mod!

Mordrak

02-12-2009, 03:23 PM

We will if these guys (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Movies.Detail&id=82) ever finish their damn mod!

I just tried to go to their website and it required a password for the front page. I don't think it's going to happen.

Mordrak

02-12-2009, 03:24 PM

mkozlows

02-12-2009, 04:57 PM

I'm nearly through my backlog of games from this millennium, and Planescape is one of the earlier ones I also have to play past the beginning (along with the Last Express). Is it worth it? Really? Really, really, truly?

Planescape is perhaps the only classic game that's still worth playing. Most were great for their era but have since been surpassed, but Planescape is still the best of all time at what it did right.

quatoria

02-13-2009, 08:55 AM

Well, I mentioned Jade Empire to give an example of a Bioware game with a fairly original setting - or at least one which rips off something different for a change. While I enjoyed Mass Effect, I was a bit disappointed their "brand-new original setting!" felt a lot like Halo crossed with Star Wars, with maybe a little Star Trek thrown in for good measure. Similarly, while I expect to enjoy DA, I'm a little disappointed that for their first post-D&D fantasy RPG they make a world which looks an awful lot like the Forgotten Realms, only 15% edgier.

So, just so I have this straight, what you want from Bioware is more Jade Empire and less Mass Effect? You're the only one of your kind, right?

Bill Dungsroman

02-13-2009, 08:59 AM

While I enjoyed Mass Effect, I was a bit disappointed their "brand-new original setting!" felt a lot like Halo crossed with Star Wars, with maybe a little Star Trek thrown in for good measure.

I have to disagree. The mythos was pretty well-fleshed out and realized IMO...not to mention the fact that the inspiration of much of it was drawn from sci-fi films of the 80s/90s more or less (more of an homage than any outright ripoffs). I never once felt while playing the game that I was doing something with a Star Wars or Star Trek flavor, beyond that I was in spaaaaaaace which is a pretty broad generalization.

Matt Perkins

02-13-2009, 09:00 AM

Yeah, stupid Mass Effect and it's sci-fi setting!

metta

02-13-2009, 09:11 AM

How is 'Mage' a race alongside Elf and Dwarf and Hoomin?

It doesn't matter, I'm just glad it's coming for the Xbox.

Staff Sergeant

02-13-2009, 09:17 AM

I just assumed that by "Mage" they meant "Human Mage".

unbongwah

02-13-2009, 09:25 AM

So, just so I have this straight, what you want from Bioware is more Jade Empire and less Mass Effect? You're the only one of your kind, right?
Never claimed I wasn't in the minority; nor am I claiming JE is a better game than ME. Just that as far as settings go, "pseudo-Chinese martial-arts steampunk fantasy" is a lot more novel and appealing to me than "Featureless Rocky Terrain Dune Buggy Adventures Starring Generic Space Grunts...In Spaaaace."

Yeah, stupid Mass Effect and it's sci-fi setting!
It just felt so...generic. Where are the weird non-humanoid races? [Well, OK, there were the Hanar and the Keepers, but they didn't do much.] The wild scifi weapons? [Pistol, shotgun, assault rifle, sniper rifle - way to break the Idea Bank there, guys.] Mysterious alien worlds with exotic flora & fauna? And their idea of a "ground-breaking" exploration of sexual themes is a species of multi-hued space hotties with tentacle hair who will mate with anything?

There were definitely some cool bits and some interesting backstory to ME and I'm definitely looking forward to the sequel. I just felt they could've put more effort into making their original IP, y'know, original.

caesarbear

02-13-2009, 09:48 AM

I just tried to go to their website and it required a password for the front page. I don't think it's going to happen.

Still happening. Rogue Dao interview on Feb6 NWPodcast (http://www.nwnpodcast.com/nwnp/index.php/2009/02/06/nwnp-episode-90-rogue-dao-studios/). Direct link to mp3 (http://nwnpodcast.com/episodes/NWNP-00090.mp3), skip to 14mins in.

Lizard_King

02-13-2009, 08:44 PM

I have to disagree. The mythos was pretty well-fleshed out and realized IMO...not to mention the fact that the inspiration of much of it was drawn from sci-fi films of the 80s/90s more or less (more of an homage than any outright ripoffs). I never once felt while playing the game that I was doing something with a Star Wars or Star Trek flavor, beyond that I was in spaaaaaaace which is a pretty broad generalization.

I don't have much of a sci fi background, so I don't have specific references to draw for most things in ME. But there was something insanely generic about it, something that is difficult to appreciate unless you watch someone else play it for a while. Not because it's a sophisticated concept, but because the game is so damned addictive in spite of or possibly because of it.

That said, I would never compare almost any aspect of ME to Jade Empire and decide the latter had the right idea. Bioware's thing is bland-but-polished, but that fortune cookie bullshit in JE coupled with a lackluster combat system really strained their ability to make a compelling game.

Mordrak

02-13-2009, 08:46 PM

Kevin Grey

02-13-2009, 10:40 PM

I actually liked Mass Effect's story (well more before I realized that it ripped off BSG), but its art direction is very, very, bland.

Ripped off BSG? How so?

Mordrak

02-13-2009, 11:21 PM

Ripped off BSG? How so?

Robots get smart, robots leave, robots start their own religion, robots come back to kick some ass.

At least that's what I recall of ME's story (and stuff about really badass robots growing lifeforms for engergy or something).

Zane0

02-14-2009, 01:02 AM

ME is very cunning in one respect; it is consciously presented as a tribute to camp 80s sci-fi by design, complete with film grain, cheesy plot, and boring humanoid aliens. I won't go so far as to accuse the devs of justifying their noticeably anemic sci-fi concept by using a shitty measuring stick on purpose -- but it is a bit convenient.

Dragon Age I don't know what to think. The production values will be enjoyable enough to be sure, but its "gritty and mature fantasy" tagline just doesn't seem to hold up to any scrutiny. The video snippet they're fond of showing of a prisoner that you can either help or murder, for example. Is that one of DA's deep and terrifying ethical dilemmas? Sounds more like the classic Bioware 'choice' between boyscout and psychopath. XP or loot?

Another preview from PC Gamer, about origins:
I click through a few screens of dialog to get the details - the citizen has written a controversial screed about one of the paragons, the living legends elected by the dwarven council who are meant to be revered by all. Indicting a paragon could be a serious offense. The historian shoots back: "Not liking history doesn't make it any less true." And then I'm faced with a choice: Preserve his right to publish, or protect the name of the noble's paragon and his house? Not fond of censorship, I pick the most extreme option before me: order Gorim to have the noble asassinated. Gorim nods, darts off, and returns a moment later. "Word has been sent. He won't live past the hour." I cackle. In my mind, I twirl the curls of my massive beard. Less than 10 minutes in, I've ordered someone completely innocent (albeit annoying) to his death. Could more amoral decisions await? I can only hope.

Does this make any fucking sense? There are "mature" fantasy worlds, which I take to mean as something akin to the feudal societies of our past with all the grim realities and hypocrisies therein; and then there is the random murder of some dude at the drop of a hat that no real society would be capable of accepting or sustaining for long. Far from being mature, this is infantile. It makes me seriously wonder if DA has any intellectual and moral depth at all.. their superficial trappings seem a more likely prospect.

Sarkus

02-14-2009, 01:34 AM

We should have a much better sense of how mature, dark, and deep the story should be pretty soon with the release of the tie-in prelude novel, which was written by the game's main writer, David Gaider. It's supposed to be out in a couple of weeks. There is a sample chapter out that you can read that suggests deep political machinations in the plot, so there is some hope.

Brad Grenz

02-14-2009, 02:54 AM

I actually liked Mass Effect's story (well more before I realized that it ripped off BSG), but its art direction is very, very, bland.

Yeah, I think that's been a long time weakness of bioware. Their charcater portraits, for example, in the Baldur's Gate games were kinda generic and tacky compared to the really beautiful stuff done for the Icewind Dale games.

Mordrak

02-14-2009, 03:05 AM

Yeah, I think that's been a long time weakness of bioware. Their charcater portraits, for example, in the Baldur's Gate games were kinda generic and tacky compared to the really beautiful stuff done for the Icewind Dale games.

Well, not to speak ill of the dead, I think their portrait artist had cystic fibrosis or perhaps it was a concept artist? Still, that sensibility is part of the culture of Bioware and it's been cemented by their success' in that style. Perhaps they'll shake it up a bit with Dragon Age or the Star Wars MMO, but both look unlikely.

If Song of Ice and Fire was partly their inspiration, they should have just licensed it. However, without the series being complete (and w/o GRRM writing it) it'd probably be impossible to do without treading over what he's doing with the future books. There's still a lot about the world we don't know that he has yet to define and will need to to finish the series.

Robert Sharp

02-14-2009, 10:44 AM

I just want to add that killing an innocent person is not amoral. It's immoral. Also, it doesn't sound like a very deep or interesting moral dilemma. You can fight censorship (sounds interesting) or randomly kill a guy. Now, if they add something about protecting society and maintaining the social contract (something akin to Plato's noble lie, even) that might be interesting. But "Hey you want to kill this guy or not?" isn't particularly interesting.

TurinTur

02-14-2009, 11:08 AM

I am still not digging this game. It seems to me a gritty D&D game. Yeah, a more serious and mature approach to characters, great. But still a D&D game with elves and dwarves and a evil army of "DARKSPAWNS" and some mages, etc.

Taking the Song of Ice and Fire example, it's not about making a more mature storytelling, but also about --dropping the fantasy cliches already for fucks sake!--. It's still a fantasy story with kingdoms and undeads and magic, but the overall fantasy tropes is lowered, there is no evil sorcerers in a dark tower (or misterious mages in a ivory tower) or a orc/darkspawn/trolloc army (a clearcut enemy) to defeat.

Mordrak

02-14-2009, 11:15 AM

Taking the Song of Ice and Fire example, it's not about making a more mature storytelling, but also about --dropping the fantasy cliches already for fucks sake!--. It's still a fantasy story with kingdoms and undeads and magic, but the overall fantasy tropes is lowered, there is no evil sorcerers in a dark tower (or misterious mages in a ivory tower) or a orc/darkspawn/trolloc army (a clearcut enemy) to defeat.

There are witches, sorcerers, and priests with divine power, they just aren't common enough that they basically become engineers. The other thing he does, is magic is the result of primal and dangerous forces in the world. He succeeds in that he really sells that with subtle cues and events in limited scope. He's building up to the big reveals and because of his deft handling so far (and hopefully will continue), he will have earned them.

Any game that lets you click an action bar to cast a fireball is already out of GRRM's league.

frank austin

02-14-2009, 12:35 PM

belgerog

02-14-2009, 12:59 PM

Dragon Age I don't know what to think. The production values will be enjoyable enough to be sure, but its "gritty and mature fantasy" tagline just doesn't seem to hold up to any scrutiny.

The "gritty and mature fantasy" thing isn't what makes me interested about the game. Actually, I feel saying something is "gritty and mature" has become some sort of necessary marketing argument, so I dismissed this aspect of it.

The origins stuff however, looks pretty cool and if they can make anything nearly as good as Baldur's Gate 2 (they've been calling DA a spiritual successor to BG) it's going to be quite good.

Robots get smart, robots leave, robots start their own religion, robots come back to kick some ass.

Not really, there's more to it, but I won't spoil the game, it's revealed by the end.

Taking the Song of Ice and Fire example, it's not about making a more mature storytelling, but also about --dropping the fantasy cliches already for fucks sake!--.

I'm not sure putting dwarves, elves and magic in a fantasy setting is necessarily a cliche, it all depends on how well it's handled, and how individual the thing is. My point is, there's more to the individuality and charm of a setting than the choice of putting elves or space marines or not, and you can get a good setting by using those archetypes. I don't think they're stereotypes, the way you present them can be a stereotype.

It's hard to explain, since good settings are easy to experience and like, and harder to clearly explain why they're likeable.

ydejin

02-14-2009, 02:53 PM

Never claimed I wasn't in the minority; nor am I claiming JE is a better game than ME. Just that as far as settings go, "pseudo-Chinese martial-arts steampunk fantasy" is a lot more novel and appealing to me than "Featureless Rocky Terrain Dune Buggy Adventures Starring Generic Space Grunts...In Spaaaace."
I sure am glad I wasn't drinking my coffee when I read your ME description. :-) I really like ME, but yeah, that's a pretty accurate description if you do a full exploration of all the worlds.

Desslock

02-14-2009, 06:26 PM

Robert Sharp

02-15-2009, 03:15 AM

Agreed. I'd love a great generic fantasy game, actually.

Equisilus

02-15-2009, 04:45 AM

I'm more excited by Dragon Age than any recent BioWare title, but I'm also skeptical of the claims that it'll be "gritty". The Europeans seems to do that better, with The Witcher and Gothic games. But getting a spiritual sequel to the Baldur's Gate games is a-ok with me.

Strangely, I'm the least excited about DA:O than any other BioWare title (for the PC) since BG. The reason it's strange that I feel that way is that DA:O seems to have what I want in an RPG but when the details emerge I'm less than enthusiastic. Perhaps I'm fighting the temptation to get uber-excited because my expectations weren't met with NWN, JESE, or MEPC and the BG series is some big shoes to step into.

Steel_Wind

02-15-2009, 05:17 AM

I'm more excited by Dragon Age than any recent BioWare title, but I'm also skeptical of the claims that it'll be "gritty". The Europeans seems to do that better, with The Witcher and Gothic games. But getting a spiritual sequel to the Baldur's Gate games is a-ok with me.

No, I don't think we'll be seeing in game "conquest cards" after you bed the lass in DA:O.

I do think the point to take away from it is that all of BioWare's FRPGs to date - every one of them - have been until DA:O a licensed D&D title where the content of the game was dictated by the licensor, Hasbro.

And I think it's fair to say that the demands by the licensor had reached a point where the writers at BioWare were chafing very heavily under those restrictions.

So DA:O will be grittier and what you would expect from a Rated "M" game which is intended for adults, and not the whitewashed rated "T" Hasbro fantasy we have seen in the past.

Roy Ziegler

02-15-2009, 05:25 AM

What's an FRPG?

Equisilus

02-15-2009, 05:46 AM

What's an FRPG?

Fantasy RPG?

Roy Ziegler

02-15-2009, 05:51 AM

I never played enough of Mass Effect to tell. Was that gritty? Or Jade Empire? Those weren't held back by IP holders.

Equisilus

02-15-2009, 05:57 AM

I never played enough of Mass Effect to tell. Was that gritty? Or Jade Empire? Those weren't held back by IP holders.

I'm reading the last book of His Dark Materials right now, a trilogy geared towards a teen audience and published by a company that does "youth" books. It has more mature themes in it than almost all of BioWare's games combined.

ME was too sterile to be called gritty, although it had "adult" themes. JE was purely teen-oriented standard fantasy. Perhaps the meaning of "gritty" needs to be decided upon before we can go further with it.

Aeon221

02-15-2009, 06:34 AM

Gritty: of or having grit, eg: grits.

Hetzer

02-15-2009, 07:51 AM

Hmmm i have not looked at dragon age for some time... and what evolves from the spirit sequel of baldurs gate? another generic action roleplaying game for a console and the unwashed masses.

No buy!

Roy Ziegler

02-15-2009, 08:28 AM

that very insight

Miramon

02-15-2009, 08:30 AM

I never played enough of Mass Effect to tell. Was that gritty? Or Jade Empire? Those weren't held back by IP holders.

Not even slightly. Trite pablum stories with no moral conflicts to speak of -- or worse, trivialized moral conflicts with all the complexity of a first grade primer. In most (maybe all) recent Bioware games, good is syrupy sweet, and evil is infantile and banal, and there's little middle ground. There is a very faint patina of gray to Mass Effect, but it's just a gesture, the way the stubbled hero of some weak action movie is supposed to be a badass, but really has the strength of ten because is heart is pure.

Robert Sharp

02-15-2009, 09:19 AM

I think you need to look up banal. That would be more nuance than we've gotten. Which characters exhibit the banality of evil in a Bioware game? To me, they all look like egotistical psychopaths. You don't even get to try megalomania that much. I wish they had taken the alignment system more seriously. Chaotic Evil isn't fun to me. Neutral Evil is better. Lawful Evil is awesome, if done well. Bioware never allowed NE or LE.

Zane0

02-15-2009, 09:58 AM

What have you got other than your own inclinations to back this up? I've never seen an interview or read a thing that would lead me to this kind of conclusion.

IGN: What stories or authors inspired your work on Mass Effect?

Drew Karpyshyn: Mass Effect is inspired by the feel of the classic science fiction movies of the 1980s, which owe a lot to the classic science fiction authors from the 50s and 60s. As for my own personal writing style, it's difficult to point to one author or work and say "that inspired me". I'm a fan of science fiction, fantasy and horror, and on some level everything I've read has influenced me in some way. (http://au.xbox360.ign.com/articles/787/787584p2.html)

Grits aside, I am sure DA will be worth playing. It would just be a shame if it settled comfortably into the well-trodden paths of Bioware storytelling that are so excruciatingly familiar by now. There is really little financial need for such a thing since ME was a huge hit, so perhaps this what informs my skepticism.

caesarbear

02-15-2009, 10:12 AM

I think you need to look up banal. That would be more nuance than we've gotten. Which characters exhibit the banality of evil in a Bioware game? To me, they all look like egotistical psychopaths.
I believe that's what Miramon is saying. The evil characters are banal. Zane0's quote makes one think that Bioware were deliberately banal in their approach.

Armando Penblade

02-15-2009, 10:37 AM

I wonder if everyone's focusing a bit too much on this aspect of it, though.

I mean, the BG games weren't exactly the most high-fallutin' of tales, either. Brilliantly written and extremely engaging, sure, but the difference between LG Pally and CE Wizard was mostly bodycount and some dialogue (if even the latter; I haven't played the games in years thanks to a broken Disc 2 on BG2). . . which is about the same as ME and probably where DA will head, too.

And we loved the BG games, right?

I mean sure, the company shouldn't focus their message on how awesomely dark and mature the game will be. . . but it seems that expecting them to live up to a real-world definition of dark and mature goes beyond the limits of Bioware.

ManaByte

02-15-2009, 11:32 AM

I'm just hoping Bioware advances past simply recycling the Infinity-engine style of play.

The KOTOR games basically just translated the BG style of play into 3D, and Bioware has continued to do that right up through Mass Effect.

I want a RPG from them that feels as fresh as the original Baldur's Gate did.

sam16

02-15-2009, 12:06 PM

The KOTOR games basically just translated the BG style of play into 3D, and Bioware has continued to do that right up through Mass Effect.

The games Bioware made after KOTOR were Jade Empire and then ME. You can say a lot about both, but you can't say they were BG in 3d.

ManaByte

02-15-2009, 12:08 PM

The games Bioware made after KOTOR were Jade Empire and then ME. You can say a lot about both, but you can't say they were BG in 3d.

Jade Empire was just KOTOR but with a kung fu skin.

And you're right. BG was much better :)

Rob_Merritt

02-15-2009, 01:05 PM

Jade Empire was just KOTOR but with a kung fu skin.

Except KOTOR was fun, with an excellent combat system and Jade Empire was not fun at all and the combat was majorily shitty.

Roy Ziegler

02-15-2009, 01:10 PM

actually, KOTOR's was pretty bad as well

Miramon

02-15-2009, 02:08 PM

actually, KOTOR's [combat system] was pretty bad as well

Yes, completely unbalanced, with a bad blend of D20 mechanics and quasi-real-time action. Admittedly it was similar to the silly movie world in that guns are useless, but you wouldn't expect ordinary melee weapons to be so superior. They balanced it a little for KOTOR 2, but Obsidian apparently didn't have any engineers, so it was still the same weak game systems, really.

At least they made an attempt at a different combat balance for Jade Empire. I didn't mind the JE mechanics so much, weak as they were, because the awful story was so glaring in comparison :)

I agree that BG and BG 2 were not exactly Proustian in their literary qualities, but that wasn't why they were fun. All I want is something not aggressively stupid in terms of alignment system and dialogue options, and a reasonably wide variety of combat system choices that do fun things together.

frank austin

02-15-2009, 09:03 PM

IGN: What stories or authors inspired your work on Mass Effect?

Drew Karpyshyn: Mass Effect is inspired by the feel of the classic science fiction movies of the 1980s, which owe a lot to the classic science fiction authors from the 50s and 60s. As for my own personal writing style, it's difficult to point to one author or work and say "that inspired me". I'm a fan of science fiction, fantasy and horror, and on some level everything I've read has influenced me in some way. (http://au.xbox360.ign.com/articles/787/787584p2.html)

I don't want to get too into this, but nothing in that quote is about 80's sci-fi camp. It speaks about "classic" science fiction of the 80's, but you were talking about how ME was designed with camp in mind as an excuse for the "cheesy plot, and boring humanoid aliens." You even called it "cunning" in that respect. That quote doesn't really justify that viewpoint, and I still think you're reading into it to see what you want. ME's setting was bland, cheesy, and boring, and not because it wanted to be.

Zane0

02-15-2009, 11:58 PM

z22

02-16-2009, 08:42 AM

When do they expect this game to be released? I didn't have it in me to read 20+ pages, sorry. :(

Piperfan

02-16-2009, 08:48 AM

The PC and Console versions of Dragon Age Origins are scheduled for the second half of 2009.

http://dragonage.bioware.com/gamefaq.html?

peacedog

02-16-2009, 08:52 AM

Yes, completely unbalanced, with a bad blend of D20 mechanics and quasi-real-time action. Admittedly it was similar to the silly movie world in that guns are useless, but you wouldn't expect ordinary melee weapons to be so superior. They balanced it a little for KOTOR 2, but Obsidian apparently didn't have any engineers, so it was still the same weak game systems, really.

I never played KOTOR, but melee seemed incredibly powerful in 2. Of course, you started as a Jedi and could quickly convert most of the other companions to Jedi as well, so pretty soon it was all lightsabers all the time.

But even before securing a lightsaber I seem to recall wreaking lots of havoc (the caveat being I went the dual-headed route - lawl darh maul! - and you always started a little behind doing that or dual wielding in 3e).

Matt Perkins

02-16-2009, 09:28 AM

I know this isn't even an ME thread, but to say ME's setting was generic and bland is dumb.

Did you even pay attention? Did not catch that human's figured out space travel only to find out they aren't alone and they are really too small in the greater flow of things to even matter? Or that the entire known universe is using technology they don't really understand left by an older civilization that died off? What about the part where whole species have been wiped out because they were deemed to aggressive to be allowed to continue? Or that aliens that know one really understand run the main hub of the known space?

I'm not saying it's not using a fair amount of ideas that have come before it, but call me a silly bastard when I'm excited that the whole thing reminded me Larry Niven's old sci fi mixed along a few other ideas stolen here and there?

I guessing people are confusing blandness of the worlds you explored that didn't have story on them (which were very bland and generic for the most part) with the setting.

As a long time sci-fi reader, it was immensely pleasurable to see an imagined world that is so reminiscent of those stories and ideas...

TurinTur

02-16-2009, 09:36 AM

Ah, okay. I went out of my way to present my egregious accusation as more of an idle musing, but could have done so more proficiently. I would pose an honest question though: is there much difference between 'classic' 80s sci-fi and 'camp' 80s sci-fi? And which does ME most resemble? Is not the vast majority of 80s sci-fi, by definition, all about mostly-boring humanoid aliens and an objectively cheesy plot? With the exception of like, Alien or Blade Runner (not ME influences I don't think), I can't spot much of a distinction.

I don't know if Mass Effect was "classic 80s" or "camp 80s". But for me it was a very very generic scifi story. It had all the cliches and tropes of the genre. Without even one bit of a distinctive and personal twist.

Ancient race extinted with actual races discovering scifi tech (like warp drive) thanks to their ruins/old stuff left behind? Check.
Evil uber advanced cybernetic/AI life as the main enemy? Check
Humans as the last race in joining the "galactic union", but it is gaining power fast? Check
Myths and tellings about ancient races (good and evil ones) including a foretelling about how the evil is going to come back some day and make an apocalypse? Check
Dangerous bug-like lifeform with a not really bad hivemind? Check
Typical galactic politic conflict? (politicians are still the same 300 years in the future) Check
Inter-racial problems thanks to past wars and bad attitudes between some races? Check
Underworld plot? with galactic mob/underwold boss? Check
Big megacorporation researching a dangerous new weapon (usually a new/discovered lifeform), without regards of their staff/civilians, being selfish and so much profit driven that they can be considered "evil"? Check

It wasn't bad at all, per se, but i was like playing "Sci-fi: the scifi rpg game, done by bioware".

unbongwah

02-16-2009, 09:37 AM

Jade Empire was just KOTOR but with a kung fu skin.
Actually, I probably would've been happier with JE's combat if it had been "just KOTOR but with a kung fu skin:" i.e., pausable real-time party-based fighting. As it is, JE had a weak fighting engine on top of lite RPG mechanics: it bounced between tedious and frustrating for me, depending on what I was fighting.

JoshV

02-16-2009, 09:43 AM

ugh, the only original race was the blue girls...and the logic behind them hurt my brain. it was like someone really badly wanted an alien race they could procreate with.

Mike O'Malley

02-16-2009, 09:59 AM

They were just retouched versions of the Orion women in the original Star Trek.

Inactiviste

02-16-2009, 10:22 AM

Mass Effect is a game about memory : it clearly wants the player to be nostalgic, and to identify the different topos it throws at him. Throughout the game, there is a strong theme of exploring the past : Sheperd unhearts ancient ruins, discovers lost tablets, he even reveals the past of his team mates. On the contrary, the reapers want the memories to disappear into oblivion : they literaly erase them.

I'm not sure if that is what the authors intended, but one can find parallels between Sheperd's travels and the player's feelings when he explores the way he dreamed of space-opera 20 years ago. The whole plot is of course cliché, because it can't be otherwise if you want players to recognize it. But the actual conflict is not between a hero and evil, but between recollection and oblivion.

Of course I might be reading to much litterary theory.

Brian Seiler

02-16-2009, 10:39 AM

I'll grant you that thematic argument, since it seems pretty clever to me, but what it doesn't speak to is how BioWare can justify Dragon Age: Origins, which looks an awful lot like a game of Dungeons and Dragons with a bunch of mud thrown all over it and possibly some swearing. I don't doubt that I'll probably buy it and I'll probably enjoy it, but I have to agree with lots of other people that it doesn't look even a little bit original. It's hard to be original with high fantasy like that, so it should probably end up being excusable, but I can definitely see it turning off some potential players.

SpookyKG

02-16-2009, 11:16 AM

I don't doubt that I'll probably buy it and I'll probably enjoy it, but I have to agree with lots of other people that it doesn't look even a little bit original. It's hard to be original with high fantasy like that, so it should probably end up being excusable, but I can definitely see it turning off some potential players.

But who are they copying? Are they copying Baldur's Gate? I think they're allowed to do that, and who is going to complain if they do?

The only problem is the lack of Coop. I don't think there's any excuse for that.

Brian Seiler

02-16-2009, 11:20 AM

But who are they copying? Are they copying Baldur's Gate? I think they're allowed to do that, and who is going to complain if they do?

The only problem is the lack of Coop. I don't think there's any excuse for that.

Ehhh....co-op doesn't really affect me so much. I don't particularly want to play a role playing game co-operatively if it's not big, online, and I get to ignore the story because one person - AND HE KNOWS WHO HE IS - insists on ignoring anything in writing.

I'm not really questioning whether they have the right to be derivative, either. It's fine if they are. I'm just saying that this entire title doesn't quite rise to the level of interest for me, probably because it looks like something I've done a thousand times before. And I should be interested in this particular game, because I'll probably enjoy it - I just wish they were doing something more interesting with the setting to capture my imagination now, while I'm waiting for it to happen.

gurugeorge

02-16-2009, 11:21 AM

Trouble is, we can all carp at BioWare, but their games are still relatively some of the best around.

Which goes to show how hard it must be to make good games :)

My feeling about what they do is that, like the work of Bethesda, of Looking Glass and its diaspora, and other brave developers, what BioWare does is show the degree of immersion that's possible in videogames (for BioWare, their work shows the degree of immersion that possible from dialogue, story, etc.), but each of these developers only specialise in one area, and they milk it to death. Uncharitably, one might say they "rest on their laurels."

They're all one trick ponies - but that's to be expected at this stage, and thank God for them! And who can blame them if they rely on their own formulae? - at least it's a formula they developed!

As for me, I'm eagerly anticipating SWTORO, Dragon Age and ME2. I know my money will be well spent. I bet these games will simply recycle the "split quest" storyline we all know and love/hate; I suspect there will be the same over-familiar elements to how the romances develop; there will be some cheesiness, corner cutting, etc.: but dammit, I also know there will be some sublime gaming moments I couldn't get from any other developer.

frank austin

02-16-2009, 11:24 AM

I know this isn't even an ME thread, but to say ME's setting was generic and bland is dumb.

Did you even pay attention? Did not catch that human's figured out space travel only to find out they aren't alone and they are really too small in the greater flow of things to even matter? Or that the entire known universe is using technology they don't really understand left by an older civilization that died off? What about the part where whole species have been wiped out because they were deemed to aggressive to be allowed to continue? Or that aliens that know one really understand run the main hub of the known space?

How is any of this not generic? Am I missing the sarcasm? Naeblis did a good job with this already, so I don't feel the need to repeat it. In my mind, this sort of thing doesn't bode well for DA:O.

Joe M.

02-16-2009, 11:39 AM

Heh, I'm glad I'm not a jaded sci-fi fan. I did promise a friend I'd watch BSG eventually but I think I'll put that off till after ME3.

Sarkus

02-16-2009, 11:40 AM

How is any of this not generic? Am I missing the sarcasm? Naeblis did a good job with this already, so I don't feel the need to repeat it. In my mind, this sort of thing doesn't bode well for DA:O.

You make it sound like writing an original sci-fi story that is commercially successful is easy. And yet if you go to the book store you see tons of derivative stuff like the Star Trek and Star Wars novels, the Warhammer 40k novels, and so on. The reality is that stuff sells that is relatively familiar; if you change things up too much you risk alienating the audience.

On top of that the gaming industry generally doesn't hire professional writers to write for them. There are some exceptions, but for the most part these aren't published and successful story creators here. So of course it is not going to be at the level of your favorite author. On the other hand it is a different medium so even if you did hire a successful author it doesn't guarantee that they will produce high quality material.

There are a number of things I didn't like about Mass Effect, but between the novel and the backstory included in the game the universe was relatively interesting and fleshed out.

Tim James

02-16-2009, 11:49 AM

I never played KOTOR, but melee seemed incredibly powerful in 2. Of course, you started as a Jedi and could quickly convert most of the other companions to Jedi as well, so pretty soon it was all lightsabers all the time.I played 2 first and remember thinking I should've gone with a force lightning build. A couple blasts of the version that hits multiple enemies and you can clear out a room without wasting so much time on lightsaber melee. I don't believe it was as strong in the first game.

I didn't think it was that bad, but I don't get picky about unbalanced gameplay if it's fun. On the other hand, you guys are really making me want to take the NWN2 OC off my backlog, or at least put it way at the end.

frank austin

02-16-2009, 11:54 AM

You make it sound like writing an original sci-fi story that is commercially successful is easy.

Do I? Or am I just pointing out how unoriginal and generic ME seemed to me? I don't think I've said a damned thing about the ease in crafting an original sci-fi world.

Aeon221

02-16-2009, 12:16 PM

This thread is so generic. Who the fuck uses words these days? And the Latin alphabet? Pffft. So passe! If it isn't written entirely in wingdings, it isn't worth my time!

Robert Sharp

02-16-2009, 02:06 PM

I get why some people are worried about it being too generic, but I'm actually disappointed that they are trying to make it more mature and grittier. I WANT to snuggle up in a D&D womb and burst forth to relive my childhood. Where are these other great, generic setting fantasy RPGs that people keep complaining about? How can it be trite if no one else is doing it. It's not the 90s anymore.

Brian Seiler

02-16-2009, 02:10 PM

That's just it - I think that I'd be more interested if it were a bunch of frilly elves and sour dwarves hurling insults at one another on a quest to liberate some evil dragon's gold. I think that Dragon Age has intersected the hackneyed tropes of fantasy with the overwrought grittiness of modern game design to create a soup of....meh. If it were deliberately escapist and cheery classically fantastic in that way, that would actually make the game stand out. You may have just struck on what bothers me most about it - not only is it generic in the fantastic sense, but it's also generic in the modern game design sense, so I've got very little to get excited about.

Robert Sharp

02-16-2009, 02:16 PM

Ah, that makes sense. So it's like they're taking the worst of both worlds for you. I think I'm afraid of that as well. I mean I like the grittier approach taken by Witcher, but that fits the setting. This seems like an intentional attempt to modernize something that was never really meant to be cynical and modern, IMO.

Kael

02-16-2009, 02:40 PM

I love how on the internet you can argue the finest points of game design, theme and uniqueness for something that isnt released yet. Is there a movie forum somewhere where people are arguing that movies are cliche months before they come out? (forget that, Im sure there are).

Im not busting on anyone by saying that. I know we are just using the little information we have and talking about our concerns and desires for the game. And thats fine, I just think its funny how many conclusions we draw form that little information.

But Im with you guys for hoping that Dragon Age offers something that makes it feel new and unique. Bioware at their best is incrediable at it so I have high hopes. I hate "generic fantasy" just like I hate cliche unimaginitive settings and storylines for any game. If I felt like the story was added as an afterthought, yet the game relies heavily ont he sotry there is a problem.

Also, I have to complain about the use of "D&D" as a setting or genre. D&D was incrediably diverse and its impossible to make a fantasy game that doesn't share something with it. Even a fantasy game developed in a vacumn with no knowledge of D&D would share settings, themes and concepts. I dont know if there is something uniquely D&D that can make something else a D&D clone. I would agree to that with some of the D&D settings like the Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Planescape, etc.

z22

02-16-2009, 03:42 PM

Is there a movie forum somewhere where people are arguing that movies are cliche months before they come out? (forget that, Im sure there are).

I do a pretty good/poor job lambasting comic book movies on this site, months/years/days before/after they are released. :)
I must confess, I saw Hancock recently and thought it was decent.

Back to the topic......
My biggest concern with this game is the same issue I had with the Baldur Gate series, how to keep from pausing combat every 2 seconds to try to play it like a turn-based combat system (my preference).

The only real-time "RP" combat system I enjoyed was in the Diablo games, mostly from the skills and spells lending themselves very well to real-time, while all other RP games seem to have a turn-based combat system that plays in real time. I also find it very clumsy playing more than one character in a party in real-time combat, I just end up letting the character go hog wild (and die in the process), or I micro-manage the game in a clumsy manner by pausing combat every 2 seconds.

Miramon

02-16-2009, 05:40 PM

I know this isn't even an ME thread, but to say ME's setting was generic and bland is dumb.

Did you even pay attention?

Well, the setting is not very original, except in some random details -- it's generic space opera, not really hard SF at all, which is nothing to be ashamed of in itself.

But more importantly the story seems to be a weak and thin trapping rather than the reason that the game is laid out in a certain way. I guess in a way it's the gameplay's fault for being so weak and repetitive that the story seems irrelevant. I mean, on the twentieth or thirtieth seemingly random planet full of random terrain with random lighting in that ridiculous tank buggy thing that will eventually take you to a dungeon which has exactly the same layout as half a dozen others you've already seen, you sort of stop caring about whether the TOTALLY-NOT-PROSTITUTE hot alien girls who will pay you for your DNA so they can reproduce are good guys or bad guys.

This is just speculation, but I think that the game-system and level designers and so on didn't mostly know what the content group and the story writer was doing, nor did they care, nor did the CD make them care. Content and game-systems should be friends, if you know what I mean, or they should at least go out for lunch from time to time. You'd think someone would tell the game-systems people it's a sci-fi game so they could come up with some actual sci-fi weapons....

Joe M.

02-16-2009, 05:59 PM

Perhaps I misunderstood the entire premise of the game, but I thought all of the really advanced technology wasn't even theirs. It was waiting to be discovered.

Sarkus

02-17-2009, 12:37 AM

But more importantly the story seems to be a weak and thin trapping rather than the reason that the game is laid out in a certain way. I guess in a way it's the gameplay's fault for being so weak and repetitive that the story seems irrelevant. I mean, on the twentieth or thirtieth seemingly random planet full of random terrain with random lighting in that ridiculous tank buggy thing that will eventually take you to a dungeon which has exactly the same layout as half a dozen others you've already seen, you sort of stop caring about whether the TOTALLY-NOT-PROSTITUTE hot alien girls who will pay you for your DNA so they can reproduce are good guys or bad guys.

This is just speculation, but I think that the game-system and level designers and so on didn't mostly know what the content group and the story writer was doing, nor did they care, nor did the CD make them care. Content and game-systems should be friends, if you know what I mean, or they should at least go out for lunch from time to time.

You don't need to speculate as to why this particular problem appeared in ME. It was a matter of disk space - they didn't have room to store unique stuff for each of those optional planets so they created a few standardized interiors and used them over and over again. Remember, the XB360 streams data off the game disk and doesn't install anything on the HDD, so games on it are limited by what they can fit on the disk in a format they can stream out of.

So that was a technical issue, not a game design issue. Not that I expect this information to change your opinion but it is a common complaint about the game that people seem to think is proof of lazy design.

Brad Grenz

02-17-2009, 12:41 AM

Fucking 360!

Roy Ziegler

02-17-2009, 12:45 AM

You don't need to speculate as to why this particular problem appeared in ME. It was a matter of disk space - they didn't have room to store unique stuff for each of those optional planets so they created a few standardized interiors and used them over and over again. Remember, the XB360 streams data off the game disk and doesn't install anything on the HDD, so games on it are limited by what they can fit on the disk in a format they can stream out of.

So that was a technical issue, not a game design issue. Not that I expect this information to change your opinion but it is a common complaint about the game that people seem to think is proof of lazy design.

Why not do fewer, unique planets then? I'd say them making a shit load of generic planets is bad design when they knew they were making it for the 360.

Inactiviste

02-17-2009, 01:00 AM

You don't need to speculate as to why this particular problem appeared in ME. It was a matter of disk space - they didn't have room to store unique stuff for each of those optional planets so they created a few standardized interiors and used them over and over again. Remember, the XB360 streams data off the game disk and doesn't install anything on the HDD, so games on it are limited by what they can fit on the disk in a format they can stream out of.

So that was a technical issue, not a game design issue. Not that I expect this information to change your opinion but it is a common complaint about the game that people seem to think is proof of lazy design.

Yet Oblivion and Fallout 3 run fine on the 360, and they have much more content...

As much as I love Mass Effect, I'm pretty sure it was rushed as it feels really unpolished in places.

Chris Nahr

02-17-2009, 01:42 AM

So that was a technical issue, not a game design issue. Not that I expect this information to change your opinion but it is a common complaint about the game that people seem to think is proof of lazy design.

Like Roy Ziegler said, in that case it's simply bad design rather than lazy design. Those boring cookie-cutter planets added absolutely nothing to the game, they should have thrown them out and used the space for fewer unique environments.

Sarkus

02-17-2009, 01:59 AM

Like Roy Ziegler said, in that case it's simply bad design rather than lazy design. Those boring cookie-cutter planets added absolutely nothing to the game, they should have thrown them out and used the space for fewer unique environments.

It's hard to say what happened, though. They may have built some unique stuff and realized late in the process that they didn't have the space they thought they would have and had to start cutting stuff. At that point removing the optional stuff would have been a hard choice to make, especially given what had been said publically about the size of the game world. Maybe there were expectations about the capability of some new compression system they were trying.

There's no doubt that it seems like a small gameworld compared to Fallout 3's, though.

André Costa

02-17-2009, 06:57 AM

Miramon

02-17-2009, 07:05 AM

Re 360 limitations.... Optical disk media are cheap, aren't they? If they're running off the disk anyway, why not just add another?

Brian Seiler

02-17-2009, 07:07 AM

Best reasons I can think of are 1) packaging (see the Lost Odyssey debacle); and 2) convenience. Swapping discs is arguably the most annoying thing in the universe when you're dealing with a console that's otherwise wireless.

Morberis

02-17-2009, 07:10 AM

Re 360 limitations.... Optical disk media are cheap, aren't they? If they're running off the disk anyway, why not just add another?

Could you imagine exploring those planets having to swap disks just because you picked the wrong one? How about if you had to switch disks a second time on the next planet?

No I don`t think disk swapping would be good in a game with open exploration like in ME. Blah it`d be like having an arbitrary line in FO3 where you had to swap the disk.

mkozlows

02-17-2009, 07:16 AM

Yet Oblivion and Fallout 3 run fine on the 360, and they have much more content...

Oblivion didn't feel any more contenty. It was full of random cookie cutter dungeons (you see the same room layouts there over and over again, just like in ME) and the cities arguably had less handcrafted stuff than ME did.

I figure that the random planets was Bioware trying to accommodate players who like open world Bethesda-style games where they can go have random irrelevant adventures in randomly generated uninteresting locales. It didn't mesh really well with the ultra-handcrafted normal Bioware aesthetic, which I think is problematic, but I don't fault them for trying.

And also I actually played and beat every last one of those optional worlds, which was maybe kinda tedious in retrospect, but personally I enjoyed those more than Fallout. If I'm going to walk around in a gray and lifeless world, at least it should be because it was cheap to add it in, not because it was carefully hand-built that way on purpose...

Miramon

02-17-2009, 07:25 AM

Could you imagine exploring those planets having to swap disks just because you picked the wrong one? How about if you had to switch disks a second time on the next planet?

No I don`t think disk swapping would be good in a game with open exploration like in ME. Blah it`d be like having an arbitrary line in FO3 where you had to swap the disk.

Come on, you know how they do it in multidisk games. Much of the content is only available later in the game. That goes on disk 2, and the stuff that has to have already been done is in disk 1. The common freely explorable stuff is on both disks.

Morberis

02-17-2009, 07:38 AM

Come on, you know how they do it in multidisk games. Much of the content is only available later in the game. That goes on disk 2, and the stuff that has to have already been done is in disk 1. The common freely explorable stuff is on both disks.

But how would you do it in the case of ME? Almost all of the areas are explorable from the start and the order that you proceed through the main plot points is up to you, so again you`re left with switching disks when you go to one of the main plot planets. So where would you put the switch disk screen in a game like FO3?

Do we know what % of the disk was filled with these explorable worlds? For all we know if we double that for more detail and variety they wouldn`t be able to fit all the planets on 1 disk.

Though you may be right, maybe that would have been possible.

Eightball

02-17-2009, 08:16 AM

And also I actually played and beat every last one of those optional worlds, which was maybe kinda tedious in retrospect, but personally I enjoyed those more than Fallout. If I'm going to walk around in a gray and lifeless world, at least it should be because it was cheap to add it in, not because it was carefully hand-built that way on purpose...

Agreed with this.

Damien Neil

02-17-2009, 01:58 PM

Oblivion didn't feel any more contenty. It was full of random cookie cutter dungeons (you see the same room layouts there over and over again, just like in ME) and the cities arguably had less handcrafted stuff than ME did.

Less handcrafted stuff in the cities?

I'm pretty sure there's more handcrafted stuff in any one city in Oblivion than there was in the whole of ME. Every house is unique. Every piece of furniture is hand-placed, and covered with hand-chosen items. Sure, the actual items are chosen from a cookie-cutter list, but the way everything is put together isn't.

And while Oblivion's dungeons are assembled from cookie-cutter tiles, the actual tile layout is unique for each. One Ayleid ruin is much like any other, but no two of them feel like the same exact place--whereas in ME, I fought through the exact same warehouse over a dozen times.

mkozlows

02-17-2009, 03:07 PM

Less handcrafted stuff in the cities?

I'm pretty sure there's more handcrafted stuff in any one city in Oblivion than there was in the whole of ME. Every house is unique. Every piece of furniture is hand-placed, and covered with hand-chosen items. Sure, the actual items are chosen from a cookie-cutter list, but the way everything is put together isn't.

Whereas ME has completely custom everything in the main areas. Every bit of scenery is hand-made for that area (I guess they probably have some standard crates, but other than that). Basically Oblivion is the 3D equivalent of Ultima 7 (a bunch of standard objects placed by hand) and Mass Effect is the 3D equivalent of Baldur's Gate (a different painting per area).

More than that, though, is the people. Oblivion has more people, but they're all totally generic townspeople. Each person in Mass Effect, except for a few guards, has their own individual personality and dialogue, whereas the Oblivion ones are still speaking from the Tamrieltron 3000.

Damien Neil

02-17-2009, 03:12 PM

gurugeorge

02-17-2009, 03:35 PM

Actually what I would like to see is D&D games return to their Vancian roots. Gary Gygax explicitly acknowledges the s-f writer Jack Vance as a major influence on D&D, specifically in the magic system, but more generally too. BioWare/Black Isle perfectly captured that feeling in the original Baldur's Gate series.

One of the main things is the interaction of magical and technological worlds. Vance's "Dying Earth" stories had full-on magicians living at the end of the world (when the sun is about to flicker out at any minute) living in a world littered with technological remnants. Something of that atmosphere pervades the original sense of D&D.

Also, literary elegance and a certain overall baroque quality.

Mordrak

02-17-2009, 03:38 PM

Okay, describing Mass Effect as "a different painting for each area" is just laughable. There are only a handful mission maps, and you run through each one a dozen times or more. Different planet, different enemies, the exact same warehouse.

I imagine this far into the sci-fi future, they are just use, "Warehouse in a Box!" You just add water and it inflates.

mkozlows

02-17-2009, 04:23 PM

Okay, describing Mass Effect as "a different painting for each area" is just laughable. There are only a handful mission maps, and you run through each one a dozen times or more. Different planet, different enemies, the exact same warehouse.

Not the random planets! The real ones, the Citadel and the quest planets.

The random planets were like Oblivion's dungeons, randomly generated things largely devoid of interest.

Aeon221

02-17-2009, 06:18 PM

Damien Neil

02-17-2009, 09:19 PM

The random planets were like Oblivion's dungeons, randomly generated things largely devoid of interest.

But Oblivion's dungeons aren't randomly-generated.

Yes, they all use the same basic tileset, but each one is hand-made, unique, and generally interesting in some way. Whereas ME doesn't just use the same tileset, it uses the exact same damned warehouse over and over and over again.

Staff Sergeant

02-17-2009, 09:50 PM

You didn't explore enough if you actually thought every single dungeon in Oblivion was interesting. Or maybe you're just really easily interested.

mkozlows

02-17-2009, 10:25 PM

But Oblivion's dungeons aren't randomly-generated.

Yes, they all use the same basic tileset, but each one is hand-made, unique, and generally interesting in some way. Whereas ME doesn't just use the same tileset, it uses the exact same damned warehouse over and over and over again.

They're hand-made in the same way Mass Effect's worlds are. They slap together some prefab bits, toss in a light theme ("goblins!"), and let it go. Neither of them really feels like people worked to create them, except for the odd Mass Effect planet where something non-standard happens.

Mordrak

02-17-2009, 10:50 PM

They're hand-made in the same way Mass Effect's worlds are. They slap together some prefab bits, toss in a light theme ("goblins!"), and let it go. Neither of them really feels like people worked to create them, except for the odd Mass Effect planet where something non-standard happens.

There's actually some nice dungeons in Oblivion with some well thought out designs if you're willing to pay attention. However, given the size of the game, they do tend to bleed together as well. And of course, many of the good ones are presented earlier than later (just the nature of development I guess).

Chris Nahr

02-18-2009, 12:13 AM

They're hand-made in the same way Mass Effect's worlds are. They slap together some prefab bits, toss in a light theme ("goblins!"), and let it go. Neither of them really feels like people worked to create them, except for the odd Mass Effect planet where something non-standard happens.

You aren't by any chance confusing Oblivion and Morrowind, are you? Oblivion's dungeons weren't nearly as boring and repetitive as Mass Effect's planets.

Chris Nahr

02-18-2009, 12:14 AM

Back to Dragon Age... Kieron Gillen (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/02/17/dragon-age-battlefield-1943-nycc-much-cop/) plays for a while and is cautiously optimistic.

The main thing I took away from Dragon Age was that Bioware hadn’t fucked it up on any core level. Which is welcome - on release I found Obsidian’s Neverwinter Nights 2 close to unplayable as a party in any of the camera modes, if you wanted to play with any tactical level finese whatsoever. Here, I was setting up battlelines and trying to maximise my fireball spells like a good little Min-maxing-munchkin. Hell, I found myself looting the baddies for coins as a RPG-reflex, despite knowing I’d never get to spend them.

Sarkus

02-18-2009, 12:22 AM

Apparently it's just me but I thought ME's plot planets were well done and not-repetitive in any significant way. They didn't have as much to do on them as, say, something like the planets on KOTOR 1, but I don't remember them as being particularly repetitive.

Obviously the non-main plot planets and stuff was very repetitive.

Chris Nahr

02-18-2009, 12:27 AM

I thought we were only talking about the planets outside the main plot here. The plot locations were generally very well done.

Brad Grenz

02-18-2009, 12:52 AM

I actually just got back to Mass Effect last night after ignoring the game for some time. Can I assume there's not much reason to bother checking out many non-plot systems?

Chris Nahr

02-18-2009, 12:59 AM

The only reason to visit most of those systems is for achievements and extra XP, otherwise you can just ignore them.

mkozlows

02-18-2009, 10:08 AM

I actually just got back to Mass Effect last night after ignoring the game for some time. Can I assume there's not much reason to bother checking out many non-plot systems?

There are several that have non-generic stuff on them, including actual cinematics and voice acting in a few cases -- but you'll generally get quests in the Citadel telling you to go to those places, so you don't need to randomly explore for them.

The other random planets are almost explicitly worthless, just full of random combat and collect-them-all treasure hunts.

Brian Seiler

02-18-2009, 10:11 AM

The other random planets are almost explicitly worthless, just full of random combat and collect-them-all treasure hunts.

True, but I don't think I would have finished the amulet quest if I hadn't made it a point to breeze through every single freaking planet I could access. Do you get any specific clues about where to go to finish that one? Or did that start on some random planet? It's been a year and change since I finished the game.

xavion

02-18-2009, 10:40 AM

True, but I don't think I would have finished the amulet quest if I hadn't made it a point to breeze through every single freaking planet I could access. Do you get any specific clues about where to go to finish that one? Or did that start on some random planet? It's been a year and change since I finished the game.

As far as I remember there are no clues that direct you to that planet.

Lizard_King

02-19-2009, 07:09 PM

I actually just got back to Mass Effect last night after ignoring the game for some time. Can I assume there's not much reason to bother checking out many non-plot systems?

I wouldn't recommend it. The extra XP is a bait and switch: the game plays much better at low to medium experience levels, which are more than enough to get a good taste of the abilities. If you see ghost ships, or whatever you call spaceships that are just floating around in orbit, then that might be worth your while since no Mako driving is required and some of them have some nice side stories in them.

Staff Sergeant

02-19-2009, 11:33 PM

It would have been nice if there was a class upgrade quest for each character somewhere in the universe just like the Lunar one for the player character,

frank austin

03-30-2009, 10:21 AM

Did anyone else walk away from the videos that just got released (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/03/30/into-the-fire-dragon-age-battle-footage/) feeling kind of "meh"? The staff animations were particularly cringe-inducing, but all of the animation was lacking.

Anaxagoras

03-30-2009, 11:02 AM

The run animation for the armored guy was pretty awful, but I really dug the actual combat animation (sword swinging & whatnot) in that clip.

As for the magic user..... it was a bit repetitive, but I must admit that I really like the minimalist magic animations. Huge colorful clouds of particle effects have long since stopped impressing me. The simple little green dot was ideal, in my mind.

Shame about all the other wizard-related animations, though.

Therlun

03-30-2009, 11:19 AM

The one thing that comes to my mind is that with a party and real time combat those animations will go almost completely unnoticed by almost every player after the first 15 minutes of the game.

Rock8man

03-30-2009, 11:23 AM

The one thing that comes to my mind is that with a party and real time combat those animations will go almost completely unnoticed by almost every player after the first 15 minutes of the game.

While that's true, it is ignored by most players consciously. But I'd say it still helps form the overall "look and feel" of the game in the players' minds unconsciously throughout the game, even if it's not something they actively think about.

Sarkus

03-30-2009, 11:44 AM

By the way, that mage woman speaking in the second video is apparently voiced by Claudia Black of Farscape and Stargate fame. It's not confirmed, but it's been noticed that it sounds like her and the devs apparently let slip some time ago that a Farscape actor was involved.

As for the video itself, I think it's really hard to make any judgements. All anyone really expects is something that looks state of the art at most from an RPG and in the end what will make the game succeed or fail won't be the magic effects but rather whether the interface works and the story is good.

Edit: Here's a different version of the same battle: http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/694382/Dragon-Age-Origins-Media-Extended-Look-at-BioWares-Latest-RPG.html

That flaming tornado thing is pretty cool, I think.

Anaxagoras

03-30-2009, 01:02 PM

Edit: Here's a different version of the same battle: http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/694382/Dragon-Age-Origins-Media-Extended-Look-at-BioWares-Latest-RPG.html

That battle looked.... weird. The main character was raining down fiery & icy destruction on 10 guys at a time, but the enemies were easily distracted by guys swinging hunks of metal.

Hey guys... you might want to attack the walking nuclear arsenal.

madkevin

03-30-2009, 02:10 PM

I haven't been following Dragon Age all that closely, but is this still PC only? I thought I heard something about it coming out for consoles as well.

Jason McMaster

03-30-2009, 02:12 PM

I haven't been following Dragon Age all that closely, but is this still PC only? I thought I heard something about it coming out for consoles as well.

Yeah, simultaneous release.

frank austin

03-30-2009, 02:23 PM

Wow, that video Sarkus posted looks almost like a different game to me. That staff poke animation is still annoying, but the spell effects look better and the melee hits seem to connect better, too. There's a pretty sweet looking shield bash in there.

What's with the facial animations though? That bit at the beginning makes me feel like I'm looking at a special olympics LARP.

Aeon221

03-30-2009, 02:53 PM

Dear lord, I hope you can skip the dialog. The character face animations are almost as painful to look at as their BDSM inspired wardrobe.

nordhus

03-30-2009, 04:01 PM

The Dragon Age site lists the six origins as Dwarf Commoner, Dwarf Noble, City Elf, Dalish Elf, Human Noble, and Mage.
Is Mage short for Human Mage, or can any race be mages, or is this one of the fantasy worlds where mages are a separate race?

frank austin

03-30-2009, 04:12 PM

Modern PC RPGs will do themselves a lot of good once they start to animate more than just the speaking character's face in a scene with dialogue. As it is, you've got one set of moving lips and about a dozen wooden mannequins standing stock still in the background during every single speech.

Mordrak

03-30-2009, 04:23 PM

I have to say that I actually liked much of the art direction in the crowd cinema. The animation is a bit wonky, but kudos Bioware.

Sarkus

03-30-2009, 04:44 PM

What's with the facial animations though? That bit at the beginning makes me feel like I'm looking at a special olympics LARP.

Yeah, there is a new Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5189916/dragon-age-origins--a-tragedy-in-the-making) piece that hits that same point and I agree with the writers comment that "it's just weird to see an emotional plea fall on the apparently deaf ears of "my" character who can't even talk or so much as lift an eyebrow in response to being yelled at."

Hopefully Bioware will take some of this extra time to work on those facial elements.

Equisilus

03-30-2009, 04:47 PM

Hopefully Bioware will take some of this extra time to work on those facial elements.

Considering the PC version development is "winding down", I doubt they'll be doing much in the way of tweaking any of the animations. They'll be focusing on getting the console versions ready.

Mordrak

03-30-2009, 04:52 PM

Yeah, there is a new Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5189916/dragon-age-origins--a-tragedy-in-the-making) piece that hits that same point and I agree with the writers comment that "it's just weird to see an emotional plea fall on the apparently deaf ears of "my" character who can't even talk or so much as lift an eyebrow in response to being yelled at."

Hopefully Bioware will take some of this extra time to work on those facial elements.

They gave the main character aspergers so gamers could identify with the hero.

Roy Ziegler

03-30-2009, 04:57 PM

Has they? Has they really?

Mordrak

03-30-2009, 04:59 PM

Has they? Has they really?

God. :( Anyone know where I can trade in my brain for a new one?

Jazar

03-30-2009, 05:02 PM

That battle looked.... weird. The main character was raining down fiery & icy destruction on 10 guys at a time, but the enemies were easily distracted by guys swinging hunks of metal.

Hey guys... you might want to attack the walking nuclear arsenal.

Yeah I didn't like it. Looks like a magical RTS game. I'd rather smaller/smarter battles.

Aeon221

03-30-2009, 05:09 PM

The main character being "fucked up and tarded" is pretty par for the course, so whatever. This kotaku bit Sarkus linked is pretty good.

Actually, it looks a lot like the character interactions in Baldur's Gate II – but in that game, characters wouldn't do better in battle if they liked you. Origins shakes things up by giving you an invisible approval score among your party members

Listen, if you're going to rip an idea from NWN2:SoZ, at least take the whole idea and make the relationship score visible. I want to be able to plot out exactly how much sucking up I need to do to power up my allies, and not one jot more.

cast an ice spell to freeze an enemy, cast a stone spell on yourself so your fist is rock-hard, and then punch the frozen enemy to shatter him to bits – a la Terminator 2

And now I know what to name my character: John Conner!

Origins keeps both layers of management, letting the player get ultra-micromanagement-y with who casts what and under which circumstance or allowing them to stay out of it altogether and let the game decide who should be doing what based on class, equipment and skill level.

Oh god I hope they allow me to script some behaviors in game instead of using fucking sliders. I'll buy it on the PC for that!

And if they're going to be dicking around with item editing for online trading, I would really like to see a jewelry editor. Because if I'm going to amass a harem of battlemages, I don't want them wearing tacky pre-rendered junk.

No comment (yes please).

mkozlows

03-30-2009, 06:17 PM

Listen, if you're going to rip an idea from NWN2:SoZ

KOTOR 2 did it earlier.

Sarkus

03-30-2009, 06:38 PM

Listen, if you're going to rip an idea from NWN2:SoZ, at least take the whole idea and make the relationship score visible. I want to be able to plot out exactly how much sucking up I need to do to power up my allies, and not one jot more.

From what is being said about the Kotaku article on the official boards, it sounds like this was one of several mistakes in the article. Apparently there is a "relationship bar" on the companions character sheet the pretty much tells you what is going on in regards to their opinion of you. And it's not like the ones that don't like you suck. There is a baseline performance with small modifiers if they like what you are doing. If they don't like what they are doing they simply leave at some point, but they will continue to fight at their basic standard level until then.

I actually like this idea. It's better then some games where you could get the NPC who was completely opposite of you to fight for you for no apparent reason. And it's also better then the alternative, which is where you can't get those people to join you because they magically know you are a good guy to some minor degree (I'm thinking of that guy in Megaton in Fallout 3 who won't join you even if you are only so slightly good).

Alistair

03-30-2009, 08:09 PM

Meet me at the mill..? :( At least when someone said that in The Witcher I got to have sex.

In the modern shooter the characters look kind of plastic... but in olde worlde Ferelden, the people are made of densest wood... I'm replaying Gothic 3 now they've patched it, and the group battles, say where zombies attack the mining town in North Verant, flow much better than this :(

Underwhelmed.

I'll probably still buy it :)

Hugin

03-30-2009, 08:44 PM

mkozlows

03-30-2009, 09:11 PM

I think it's looking pretty terrible, frankly. Bad facial animations, bad combat animations, horrible art direction. That big armored guy looks like his body was designed by Rob Liefeld. And I have no idea if they're going for "sexy" with the mage's outfit but it looks like crap as well. It's like Dungeon Siege meets all the bad art stuff in Morrowind/Oblivion.

You guys are all insane. What it looks like is Baldur's Gate 3Dified and updated for modern hardware. Yeah, it's stiffer than Mass Effect, but it's a lot better-looking and less relentlessly fake Fallout 3, Oblivion, or any other non-ME RPG.

I want this game a lot.

Chris Nahr

03-31-2009, 01:26 AM

You guys are all insane. What it looks like is Baldur's Gate 3Dified and updated for modern hardware. Yeah, it's stiffer than Mass Effect, but it's a lot better-looking and less relentlessly fake Fallout 3, Oblivion, or any other non-ME RPG.

That's... completely absurd. I mean it's objectively wrong. There's no way any sane person with intact eyesight could claim that the wooden zombies we saw in those videos look better and less fake than the characters in Fallout 3. They do look a lot worse than what I recall of Mass Effect, too.

I can't believe those videos are meant to show near-final visuals. Perhaps it won't matter too much since the game is intended to be played from a zoomed-out RTS view anyway, but in that case Bioware had better limit those cinematic zoom-ins.

Brendan

03-31-2009, 01:57 AM

That's... completely absurd. I mean it's objectively wrong. There's no way any sane person with intact eyesight could claim that the wooden zombies we saw in those videos look better and less fake than the characters in Fallout 3. They do look a lot worse than what I recall of Mass Effect, too.

I can't believe those videos are meant to show near-final visuals. Perhaps it won't matter too much since the game is intended to be played from a zoomed-out RTS view anyway, but in that case Bioware had better limit those cinematic zoom-ins.

I'm with Chris here. I personally think this calls for some fancy shader gubbins to make the zoom-ins look like cell animation or something.

Desslock

03-31-2009, 06:21 AM

but it's .. less relentlessly fake Fallout 3, Oblivion, or any other non-ME RPG.

I've at least liked all of BioWare's games, but this is so wrong it seems like you're trolling. BioWare's games (at least since BG2) have tiny, artificially restrictive, completely non-interactive, barren environments - with no objects, no NPCs other than mindless manequins or information kiosks, nothing to use or interact with, no NPC motivations or scheduling -- of all the current RPG manufacturers, BioWare's games are clearly the most "relentlessly fake". Everyone else beats them - the Gothic games, the Witcher, and especially Oblivion and Fallout 3.

But BioWare makes up for it since its games typically have good storylines that are usually fun to replay at least a couple times, great combat, a lot of polish, and almost no "filler" time sinks or gameplay that isn't fun.

I'm really looking forward to this game - the combat stuff looks solid. The facial animations at the end are truly terrible though.

mkozlows

03-31-2009, 07:05 AM

I've at least liked all of BioWare's games, but this is so wrong it seems like you're trolling. BioWare's games (at least since BG2) have tiny, artificially restrictive, completely non-interactive, barren environments - with no objects, no NPCs other than mindless manequins or information kiosks, nothing to use or interact with, no NPC motivations or scheduling -- of all the current RPG manufacturers, BioWare's games are clearly the most "relentlessly fake". Everyone else beats them - the Gothic games, the Witcher, and especially Oblivion and Fallout 3.

I was talking there specifically about the NPC animation and voices. Fallout's animation and voice acting were as bad as I've seen in a game since... well, Oblivion, really. Mass Effect got me in the habit of (for the first time ever in an RPG) actually listening to conversations instead of just reading them and hittng A quickly; Fallout broke me of that within minutes.

Otherwise, yes, I agree with you that Bioware games have artificially restrictive and non-interactive settings. That pissed me off when I first played BG1, as it seemed an obvious step backward from the richly interactive game worlds of the Utima games, but at this point, I just accept it as Bioware's thing. I didn't ever expect Dragon Age to have an open world.

Desslock

03-31-2009, 07:41 AM

I was talking there specifically about the NPC animation and voices. Fallout's animation and voice acting were as bad as I've seen in a game since... well, Oblivion, really. Mass Effect got me in the habit of (for the first time ever in an RPG) actually listening to conversations instead of just reading them and hittng A quickly; Fallout broke me of that within minutes.

Gotcha, that makes a lot more sense.

Oblivion/Fallout 3's character animations do stink - voice acting is also less consistent than BioWare's stuff, although all voice acting in RPGs seem to have a "saturday morning cartoon" feel rather than something more cinematic - everyone sounds too young. I liked a bunch of Fallout 3 voice acting though - thought the celebs did a better than usual job, or at least Malcolm McDowell did. Even though it was translated, I probably preferred the Witcher's voice acting to any recent RPG, although that was probably more for the dialogue.

All is well again - I couldn't understand why a fellow Ultima fan was saying such things.

madkevin

03-31-2009, 08:52 AM

I'm replaying through the Oblivion GOTY edition right now, and lemme tell ya the voice acting is way, way better in Fallout 3. For one thing, they have more than three people doing voices.

Joe M.

03-31-2009, 09:24 AM

I haven't been keeping up with the development really, so the staff animation is freshly irritating for me. Who thought that was a good idea? I guess it would be fine at range, but when he's getting beat on by 2 or 3 guys? They couldn't add defensive casting/staff animations? It just looks ridiculous in that situation.

Otherwise, looks good.

Sarkus

03-31-2009, 11:44 AM

madkevin

03-31-2009, 11:52 AM

Um, yes? That doesn't mean it isn't irritating to hear the same handful of dudes voice everything, and it doesn't justify the terrible line readings.

Desslock

03-31-2009, 12:03 PM

You're joking, right? You do realize that Oblivion has more NPCs then Fallout 3 but used fewer actors to do it . . . .

I think you misread his post and are saying the same thing.

Sarkus

03-31-2009, 01:26 PM

I think you misread his post and are saying the same thing.

Crap. You're right, I did misread it. I thought he was saying that Oblivion had the better voice acting. Sorry Madkevin.

Nothing to see here, move along! :-)

mkozlows

03-31-2009, 01:37 PM

I'm replaying through the Oblivion GOTY edition right now, and lemme tell ya the voice acting is way, way better in Fallout 3. For one thing, they have more than three people doing voices.

Maybe, but the problem I had with Fallout voice acting was that it was a connection of disconnected line readings. So someone will be all panicky and upset in one dialog choice, and then the next sentence on the same topic has her calm and disinterested, and then back to panicky again.

Spam

03-31-2009, 03:16 PM

Oblivion and Fallout 3

Is that what this is about. Oh dear lawdy why I am so fucking dense. ME is an instant classic where i'm from yet every time I read the threads on qt3 it's being bashed, dragged, spindled and otherwise thoroughly disrespected to a pillow-biting degree by the resident critics. I assumed it was a writer thing seeing as how even I found the story a bit cheesy, what with the game's huge commercial success. But if this is just some Bethsoft/Bioware XBOX/PC sniping.. the whole EA factor.. I just wish console fanbois one and all would die in a fire. Or live and let live. FFS.

Anaxagoras

03-31-2009, 04:57 PM

Is that what this is about. Oh dear lawdy why I am so fucking dense. ME is an instant classic where i'm from yet every time I read the threads on qt3 it's being bashed, dragged, spindled and otherwise thoroughly disrespected to a pillow-biting degree by the resident critics. I assumed it was a writer thing seeing as how even I found the story a bit cheesy, what with the game's huge commercial success. But if this is just some Bethsoft/Bioware XBOX/PC sniping.. the whole EA factor.. I just wish console fanbois one and all would die in a fire. Or live and let live. FFS.

Your post. It does not jive with the rest of this thread.

Did you copy & paste the wrong paragraph?

Spam

03-31-2009, 05:12 PM

Your post. It does not jive with the rest of this thread.It's meta. If you scroll back a few pages I think you'll spot the spot.

Also, project much?

Lizard_King

04-01-2009, 04:15 AM

Your post. It does not jive with the rest of this thread.

Did you copy & paste the wrong paragraph?

Your post, it does not jibe (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/gibe.html) with the English language.

Tyrion

04-01-2009, 06:55 AM

The trailer looked mediocre graphically, but so what? The merits of a game supposedly in the same vein as Baldur's Gate 2 aren't graphical. They're in areas that can only be properly evaluated with actual, lengthy, playtime--areas like character development, level of strategy in combat, storyline, etc.

My real concern is that Bioware isn't marketing this game properly if they think that trailer is helping the game's marketplace viability. If they want something commercially successful, they should go for a Bioshock style of marketing campaign--show off the glamorous stuff, not the things that only have appeal to people already invested in the game. Hook in the audience with flash, then let the substance keep them.

frank austin

04-01-2009, 09:38 AM

I'm sure that facial/character animations have nothing to do with how the narrative is received. Yep. Nothing at all.

Tyrion

04-01-2009, 09:43 AM

I'm sure that facial/character animations have nothing to do with how the narrative is received. Yep. Nothing at all.
They have a small impact, but they didn't seem to harm the narrative quality of Mask of the Betrayer, KOTOR1/2, Planescape: Torment, or any number of other dialogue-heavy games with inferior (or no) facial animations.

frank austin

04-01-2009, 10:04 AM

They have a small impact, but they didn't seem to harm the narrative quality of Mask of the Betrayer, KOTOR1/2, Planescape: Torment, or any number of other dialogue-heavy games with inferior (or no) facial animations.

They didn't? I like how you threw Torment in there like it has anything even remotely in common with those other games in terms of animations. When defending RPGs, make sure you include Torment in your argument, or else it won't be as strong!

Perhaps you're familiar with the uncanny valley?

Tyrion

04-01-2009, 10:12 AM

They didn't? I like how you threw Torment in there like it has anything even remotely in common with those other games in terms of animations. When defending RPGs, make sure you include Torment in your argument, or else it won't be as strong!

Perhaps you're familiar with the uncanny valley?
I threw in Torment because it's pretty much the gold standard of story/dialogue quality in RPGs, and it manages to be that despite its lack of facial animations.

If you want to leave that game out, fine. Did the facial animation quality in the other games I listed significantly harm their narrative quality? I think the answer's a clear no. MoTB in particular is held up as being near-Torment quality in that regard and it looks like rubbish in comparison with what we've seen of Dragon Age.

frank austin

04-01-2009, 10:19 AM

The trailer looked mediocre graphically, but so what?

I'll just use the powers of the internet to go back in time here...

So people get uncomfortable looking at fantasy heroes that look like they just got off the short bus?

So combat isn't as enthralling when your badass wizard of time and space just stands there poking a stink in the general direction of the enemy?

So this is an internet forum where people discuss things like the quality of a game's animation even if it's an RPG? I guess they didn't get the memo that animations are an off-limits basis for criticism unless it's an action game.

Yeah, I guess that's "what".