Dragon Age Countdown...

[Dreamshadow]

A fair number of loot collection rpgs have been adding a 'scrap' method for clearing your inventory, usually giving you 60% of the items value right away.

[LesJarvis]

Doesn't that depend on how well-written the text is? For every JK Rowling there's a hundred Stephanie Meyers.

Definitely, and I think a big part of that is concision. I finally (finally!) got NWN2 all working and shit recently and tried to play it, but it mostly consisted of NPCs going on and on and on and on and on and on about shit. I tolerated this for like an hour until I finally got to one NPC who just would not shut up, and quit the game in frustration. There was just no way they were going to convince me that all that information couldn't have been conveyed in half the space or less, and probably more artfully as a result.

Obsidian seems particularly bad about this (I found KOTOR 2 had similar problems), but recent Bioware games are pretty good about not letting textual vomit get out of hand, so I'm not too worried about DA. Of course, I'm also a MGS fan, so take all that with a grain of salt.

[Eightball]

More RPGs need to allow you to buy a cart and park it at the front of a dungeon, where you can surface to dump your loot.

Or like...pack mules! That's a great idea!

[mkozlows]

Definitely, and I think a big part of that is concision. I finally (finally!) got NWN2 all working and shit recently and tried to play it, but it mostly consisted of NPCs going on and on and on and on and on and on about shit. I tolerated this for like an hour until I finally got to one NPC who just would not shut up, and quit the game in frustration. There was just no way they were going to convince me that all that information couldn't have been conveyed in half the space or less, and probably more artfully as a result.

My major problem with NWN2 was... well, actually the UI. And the camera. But once you got past those things, it was that it didn't have enough story or conversation, and had way too much IWD-style monster-hacking. So, yeah.

[LesJarvis]

Ha, well, interesting. I do intend to keep playing it more so maybe it'll grow on me, but that was the impression it made. I actually liked the original NWN for the fact that it seemed more focused on adventuring than bogging down in exposition, but I'm pretty sure I was the only person in the world who liked that campaign. I definitely agree that the UI leaves a lot to be desired, but after tweaking a bunch of settings I was able to wrangle it into a tolerable state.

[Anaxagoras]

Ha, well, interesting. I do intend to keep playing it more so maybe it'll grow on me, but that was the impression it made. I actually liked the original NWN for the fact that it seemed more focused on adventuring than bogging down in exposition, but I'm pretty sure I was the only person in the world who liked that campaign.

I liked it too, but I don't usually mention that in polite company. There's a support group that meets every Thursday at 7. You should come on by. We try to provide a safe environment where people can discuss universally despised RPG campaigns that we happen to like. This week, we'll be talking about Temple of Elemental Evil.

[stusser]

Okay, so the known downsides of the 360 version are:
You'll almost certainly be able to "cheat" in all the pre-order bonuses on the PC version too, if that matters to you. I don't know if I'd buy a new PC just to play this one game, but if your computer can handle it I would certainly buy the PC version.

Oh who am I kidding, I would so buy a new computer to play it.

[Dan_Theman]

This week, we'll be talking about Temple of Elemental Evil.By any chance, that support group doesn't happen to consist of eight people who tend to sit in a circle, does it? ;) (Me too - I know the feeling, as I once admitted that I enjoyed Gothic 3 ... that was not a pretty sight)

[Mordrak]

Didn't Dungeon Siege make a big deal out of how you could buy a donkey to haul your crap? I mean, he was in the movie (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/2/25/) and everything! Packmules - now there's an idea that's waiting for the right time to break out!

Me, I prefer RPGs which don't have a lot of trash loot in the first place. Garbage collection is for janitors and compilers, not heroes.


Didn't Daggerfall have it? I liked it in Daggerfall. I will say that I like the tension of how deep into a dungeon do you go looking for loot before you make your way out again, taking into account what you can carry.

I don't know if they should get rid of trash loot, but I'd like to see an open world hardcore RPG that handles it closer to Halo rather than Oblivion, where you can carry a few weapons depending on their size and any new weapons you have to swap out with your limited slots or use a pack mule.

I definitely don't like the feel of auto conversion or auto sell convenience features that instantly turn loot into money while you're adventuring.

[Desslock]

Definitely, and I think a big part of that is concision. I finally (finally!) got NWN2 all working and shit recently and tried to play it, but it mostly consisted of NPCs going on and on and on and on and on and on about shit. I tolerated this for like an hour until I finally got to one NPC who just would not shut up, and quit the game in frustration .

I definitely mean this as a potential negative for LesJarvis and people who feel similarly-- DA is very dialogue-intensive. It is definitely DA's dominant feature, for better or worse.

That dialogue is very well written and voice-acted, and tactical combat is also a big part of the game, but if you found the sort of talking you encountered in NWN2 and Mask of the Betrayer annoying, you WILL feel the same way about DA, so be warned.

[Eightball]

I don't know if they should get rid of trash loot, but I'd like to see an open world hardcore RPG that handles it closer to Halo rather than Oblivion, where you can carry a few weapons depending on their size and any new weapons you have to swap out with your limited slots or use a pack mule.

The Witcher fits this description (minus the pack mule).

[TurinTur]

Okay, so the known downsides of the 360 version are:

1. No isometric view
2. Lower-res textures
3. No modding

I'm pretty okay with those things, if there are no other major problems. Any UI weirdness to the 360 version? Unbearable loading screens? Bugginess?

Someone said lots of load screens as a flaw, much more in consoles. But hey, i think you consolers can now install games in the hdd like full grown up pc gamers, so i suppose that will cut the loading times like in the pc version.

[Munky]

Didn't Dungeon Siege make a big deal out of how you could buy a donkey to haul your crap? I mean, he was in the movie (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/2/25/) and everything! Packmules - now there's an idea that's waiting for the right time to break out!
Dungeon Siege also had a spell that would convert loot into gold.

[Murbella]

Dungeon siege also had a spell that would convert fun in to total body pain.

[Kunikos]

Obsidian seems particularly bad about this (I found KOTOR 2 had similar problems), but recent Bioware games are pretty good about not letting textual vomit get out of hand, so I'm not too worried about DA. Of course, I'm also a MGS fan, so take all that with a grain of salt.

I guess Torment's walls of text would make your head explode?

[Kunikos]

My major problem with NWN2 was... well, actually the UI. And the camera. But once you got past those things, it was that it didn't have enough story or conversation, and had way too much IWD-style monster-hacking. So, yeah.

The SlimGUI mod on NWVault makes life a little easier, as does Tony_K's AI. Camera issues were mostly resolved in patches around the time of the first expansion pack. Mask of the Betrayer is a fantastic story-driven game, so I would suggest picking it up while you wait for Dragon Age to come out. ;)

[LesJarvis]

I guess Torment's walls of text would make your head explode?

Yeah, I got nowhere in Torment.

[RodeoRanch]

Any word on what the manual will look like? Worth buying a box copy for or is it negligible?

The Impulse version with their survey discount is mighty appealing but I do like an old-fashioned big manual. The BG2 manual was a beauty.

[Lizard_King]

I guess Torment's walls of text would make your head explode?

It was the walls of adventure game logic and the walls of crappy combat that made my head explode. Pure text on a screen takes seconds to read, but I will never finish Torment thanks to the 2/3 of the game that is unplayable for me over the long term.

However, I feel like the move to voice and acting has made every game more of a gamble. I know I can read quickly no matter what, but now I tune out early on games I know I'm supposed to be enjoying (Brutal Legend) and get strangely drawn in by crap (Rise of the Argonauts).

[Rock8man]

Dungeon siege also had a spell that would convert fun in to total body pain.

Dungeon Siege also played itself, so I saw no need to interfere with it. I did finish the game, but had no desire to ever go back to it again. Ever.

And when Ultima V: Lazarus, the mod came out, I re-installed Dungeon Siege, and it used the base game's combat system and controls, and I'd forgotten just how much I hated those, and I was surprised by the amount of passion it extracted from me in the 10 seconds it took to quit out of the game forever. Ugh. Dungeon Siege. I can't believe I used to enjoy that game. What was wrong with me back then?

[thinkingork]

I like Dungeon Siege. It is very good in what it does.

I reinstalled Dungeon Siege 2 not long ago, it has certainly aged very well.

[Tony M]

Inventory limits are a real pain in this game, particularly since the default game comes with no way to store items.


So wait a minute... Theres no place to store items in the game UNLESS you fork out another $7 for a digital chest. Rrrrrrrgh... must... contain... nerd... rage...

Tony

[Timsfker]

So wait a minute... Theres no place to store items in the game UNLESS you fork out another $7 for a digital chest. Rrrrrrrgh... must... contain... nerd... rage...

Tony

Would you like to buy the $3 digital padlock with that purchase?

[jellyfish]

For $1 you can get a little plastic bag that holds one item.

[kerzain]

The bag can only be stored in the digital chest though, otherwise you have to equip it off-hand.

[Calistas]

Hope we'll hear how it is on 360 soon. I fear my old gaming laptop (Radeon Mobility x1600 and dual 1.6ghz) might not fair well with this beasty :/

[syllogism]

So wait a minute... Theres no place to store items in the game UNLESS you fork out another $7 for a digital chest. Rrrrrrrgh... must... contain... nerd... rage...

Tony

I think Chris Priestly mentioned the camp has permanent storage

[JM]

To get to the camp you need a $12 password.

[crpgnut]

For those who have played some of this, how does a typical dialogue session go? Does my character have to talk to each character one on one for most of the dialogue to happen, or does it become a group chat session where I might ask the whole party how they feel about a particular situation? To me, if you're trying to save the world, stopping to talk to each member individually several times would be extremely immersion breaking. One on one chats should probably only happen when two characters are alone together.

Another question, can you break the party up into multiple groups while playing? How far apart can they get from the party leader? It'd be cool if you could have the party thief scouting quite a ways ahead of the rest of the party, looking for traps, secret doors, uncovering the map etc.

[shang]

I'm interested in knowing how well hybrids are balanced. I'm thinking of making my first character a melee-oriented mage (stone armor + elemental weapon buffs and later the Arcane Warrior specialization), but I'm a bit worried that the character might get gimped by have to spread attribute points too thin since a melee-mage requires every attribute sans Cunning. I normally wouldn't worry so much about min-maxing, but since all the reviews have commented on how difficult the battles can be, I wouldn't want to end up with a character that sucks in everything.

[Thesper]

I read somewhere that the Arcane Warrior spec has a skill that allows you to use your mage stats (eg. Magic) in place of the normal warrior stats.

That was just in a post on the Dragon Age forums though, so I can't confirm it.

[TurinTur]

I read somewhere that the Arcane Warrior spec has a skill that allows you to use your mage stats (eg. Magic) in place of the normal warrior stats.

That was just in a post on the Dragon Age forums though, so I can't confirm it.

In a gamespot preview i read the same thing, something about using a magic skill instead of melee/strength.

[Matt Perkins]

Speaking of Dungeon Siege. It had one REALLY GREAT feature, no level loading. I assume Dragon Age continues to be a Bioware game and have level loading every feet you go?

[Murbella]

Speaking of Dungeon Siege. It had one REALLY GREAT feature, no level loading. I assume Dragon Age continues to be a Bioware game and have level loading every feet you go?
facepalm.

[Matt Perkins]

facepalm.
?2345

[Rock8man]

Level loading must not be a big deal to Murbella I guess. If so, I kind of agree. The good parts of a Bioware game (except for Baldur's Gate, which I hated) usually eclipse the constant level loading. Either that or he's disagreeing that Bioware games have a lot of level loading every few feet, in which case he's just plain wrong.

[Murbella]

No, i never had loading problems in nwn2. The zones are pretty decent sized except for small buildings and it was fast. I don't even have a great computer and have never had a problem with bioware games.

You never load every few feet or few minutes unless you're constantly going in to houses. This is just a gross exaggeration. MANY other games load more frequently than nwn2 and unlike nwn2, load times are often long in them. Unlike other games, bioware games tend to load areas as you enter them so loading doesn't interrupt the action, thus in that type of loading as long as the loading isn't long, it doesn't bother me and it isn't in any bioware game i've played.

So yeah, i think bioware will continue the tradition of having a much lower percentage of my time spent on loading than other games. If you want to see long loading times, play gothic 3 or witcher (if i remember right and not the extended/whatever edition).

[MrCoffee]

except nwn2 isnt a bioware game

[Murbella]

As far as i know it uses the same engine which would control loading i would think. It is just the most recent example i can think of.

i didn't having loading problems in mass effect then.

[Khoram]

As far as i know it uses the same engine which would control loading i would think. It is just the most recent example i can think of.

i didn't having loading problems in mass effect then.
Negative on NWN2 using a Bioware engine; you didn't sit in an elevator staring at the walls with your silent pals many, many times in Mass Effect?

[TurinTur]

Whatever about ME and NWN2. One of ther reviewers we have in this board said the game has frequent load screens.

[Joe M.]

Negative on NWN2 using a Bioware engine; you didn't sit in an elevator staring at the walls with your silent pals many, many times in Mass Effect?

A handful of times maybe. But many many? Seems a bit of a stretch, as far as elevators go.

[xavion]

Negative on NWN2 using a Bioware engine; you didn't sit in an elevator staring at the walls with your silent pals many, many times in Mass Effect?

In ME, did you walk into an elevator 'every feet you go' ?

[Murbella]

The elevators were annoying, but how many of them were in actual combat missions? Maybe every so often a story planet had one or two, generally not too close together.

If i remember right, you'd go through one going to and getting off a planet and that was pretty much it. The only other time i can think of is the ones in the mid section of the main city, but once you get the travel points, you can just teleport around.

[Tim James]

It's crates, Matt Perkins, not loading screens!

[Khoram]

you're talking about different things. Bioware games never have loading screens "in actual combat missions." They always have loading screens at area transitions - opening doors and entering/exiting rooms or buildings, or floors inside a building, etc.

Whatever, indeed. Desslock, who has played the game, was the one who brought up the fact that there are many loading screens, presumably for area transitions, per the norm for Bioware.

[Murbella]

Which is slightly different than "level loading every feet you go."

[Enidigm]

Morrowind was egregiously bad about this when you crossed near the corners of what appeared to be square boundaries of loading regions. I think Balmora had this one spot you would cross about three times in barely the distance of the visible clipping plane.

[thurauh1]

I agrre that it is really annoying to have to let any loot lie in the deep dungeons of a game. Oblivion was particularly inflated with this.

The old Might and Magic rpg games had a little spell called Town Portal and another spell called Recall, I think. Setting a Town Portal spell up outside a dungeon meant you could just hop back to to surface outside the dungeon again; setting a Recall spell would bring you back to the nearest city, I think?

Maybe someone will mod a Bag of Holding into the game? Or it will be possible to buy such an item in the game?

edit:

I like text heavy games as well, but the point is that a word or two that's repeated a million times is still as text heavy as a game that has 1 or 2 million different words.

[idrisz]

it will be possible to buy such an item in the game?

$4.99!!!

[Jag]

I can't separate the sarcasm from the real info. What is the inventory/bag situation in DA?

[idrisz]

sarcasm aside, I bet the first mod out for DA would be a nude woman functioning as moving container, then quickly followed by thousand of better texture mods.

[BigWeather]

Constant loading was one of the things that killed Oblivion (and many other Bethesda games) for me. I'm dreading it in DA as well. I agree that one of the best features of Dungeon Siege was the lack of loading. It was a seamless experience. World of Warcraft gets major points in my book for the same reason -- it is something that I wish the superior (in terms of mechanics) game City of Heroes had.

Other than fast travel I'm all for single-scale hidden-loading games.

[Murbella]

I can't separate the sarcasm from the real info. What is the inventory/bag situation in DA?

The quote where all of the mad exaggeration came from:

Speaking of which, inventory is better than Mass Effect, but it will still drive you batty as it's slot-limited. Each item takes up a slot, and once you hit the maximum you're going to have to dumping gear. The thing is, you can really accumulate loot in a hurry, and in some of the longer dungeons you're going crazy trying to figure out what to keep and what to ditch because you can't get back to the store.So basically, inventory is not unlimited.

[Matt Perkins]

Which is slightly different than "level loading every feet you go."
/me points at the sarchasm you've fallen into.


A little exaggeration throws you off that much huh...

The original point even mentioned the likes of DS which doesn't have any loading screens at all as a reference point.

Do this: Take panties, untwist.

[Tim James]

Do this: Take panties, untwist.Hold up. This is a Bioware romance, isn't it?

Just teasing, Bioware. Excited about your game.

[Angie Gallant]

Has there been any update on that DA flash game?

[Matt Perkins]

Do we have word on the toolset released with it? Will there be one, will it suck? If I missed it earlier in the conversation, I apologize.

[Jag]

The quote where all of the mad exaggeration came from:
So basically, inventory is not unlimited.

Thanks I missed that. Man I hate when they do that. I'm a pack rat RPGer. I love nothing more than having my pack full of useless shit at the end of the game. That's how I judge my success in the game and look back with fondness on that stick I found in Chapter 1.

Risen was a huge relief with its unlimited inventory.

[sam16]

Thanks I missed that. Man I hate when they do that. I'm a pack rat RPGer. I love nothing more than having my pack full of useless shit at the end of the game. That's how I judge my success in the game and look back with fondness on that stick I found in Chapter 1.

Risen was a huge relief with its unlimited inventory.

You can buy bags from merchants to increase inventory space, and the developers have said that identical items stack, with a stack only counting as one slot in your inventory.

[Equisilus]

Do we have word on the toolset released with it? Will there be one, will it suck? If I missed it earlier in the conversation, I apologize.

The official forums have a whole section dedicated to the toolset (http://daforums.bioware.com/viewforum.html?forum=140). The new social site has a similar toolset/mod forum. So yeah, there's one.

[Tony M]

I can't separate the sarcasm from the real info. What is the inventory/bag situation in DA?

I was originally quoting this post:


Inventory limits are a real pain in this game, particularly since the default game comes with no way to store items.


But later in the thread we also heard this:


I think Chris Priestly mentioned the camp has permanent storage

So either Desslock missed the fact that you could store stuff in the camp, or he was referring to storing stuff while you're down in the actual dungeon (eg a Bag of Holding). I'm ok with either system. I just don't want the situation where you have to pay for day one DLC to get item storage. But it now sounds like thats not the case.

Tony

[idrisz]

I just just kidding earlier with the $4.99, I sure if they ever come out with a DLC for a bag of holding, modder already made it for free.

[Murbella]

Isn't the camp with permanent storage the one in warden's keep (i.e. dlc)?

[Sarkus]

Isn't the camp with permanent storage the one in warden's keep (i.e. dlc)?

From what I've read, and maybe Desslock or others who've played can clarify, there is a relatively accessible location or camp where the NPCs not currently in your active group hang out. Kind of like what the ship was in Mass Effect. Presumably there is some kind of storage available at that location.

[Angie Gallant]

Dear Bioware,

Please stop trying to make me not buy this game. I want to play it, but ridiculous and uninspired sex scenes, "the new shit," and Maxim photo shoots are all telling me that you don't want my fucking money.

[mkozlows]

Good lord. I hope all the people involved in the game are properly ashamed of that Maxim thing, but I fear they're not.

EDIT: And... nope (http://daforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=700004&forum=135). Thanks for being a skeevy creep, Stanley Woo, Bioware QA guy!

[Calistas]

Dear Bioware,

Please stop trying to make me not buy this game. I want to play it, but ridiculous and uninspired sex scenes, "the new shit," and Maxim photo shoots are all telling me that you don't want my fucking money.

Preach on. It's at times like this I wish the fantasy genre could resist the black hole-like pull of prurient sex/rape/chainmail bikini themes. And the solution is NOT a strong female player characters IN these kind of worlds, it is these kind of worlds GONE from fantasy gaming.

Or I want to see a review on Unamomer.

[Angie Gallant]

I have pretty much decided to do a series of mini-reviews on Unamommer, whenever I reach a story point that feels like a good spot to stop for a recap.

[Mordrak]

EDIT: And... nope (http://daforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=700004&forum=135). Thanks for being a skeevy creep, Stanley Woo, Bioware QA guy!

Yes, men finding women attractive, it's extremely skeevy creepy.



Especially that Alleykatze. I knew I liked Leliana for a reason.


I mean look at that. Absolutely disgusting. Horrible even. I bet he's fat and has a neck beard too! Wait, he's asian, can he even get a neck beard? Well I bet he's fat and stinky.

[thinkingork]

What's big deal?

Isn't Bioware known for using real life models as reference of its game characters?

They did this Mass Effect. And they are doing the same for Dragon Age. I am pretty sure they are doing it for the male characters in the game too. Does that make them homosexual?

[Bill Dungsroman]

What's big deal?

Isn't Bioware known for using real life models as reference of its game characters?

They did this Mass Effect. And they are doing the same for Dragon Age. I am pretty sure they are doing it for the male characters in the game too. Does that make them homosexual?

No, I think it's the "WOOT MAXIM SPREAD!!!!! L@@K!!!" approach they are taking to it.

[Adree]

http://i36.tinypic.com/2wogksg.jpg

[Mordrak]

No, I think it's the "WOOT MAXIM SPREAD!!!!! L@@K!!!" approach they are taking to it.

Is this what this thread has become? Railing against Maxim? What's next, sports illustrated? It's a mainstream magazine, which many celebrities pose in to promote themselves, their movies, music, or whatever including mostly genre actresses like Mila Jovovich, which if we're being honest is what Bioware games are: genre material. They tend to be better than average, but genre work none the less. Featuring a fetish model who served as reference for a violent fantasy video game isn't really out there for this publication.

Or are we choosing videogames as the start of our feminist revolution against society's sexism?

Is this it (http://www.maxim.com/girls/girls-of-maxim/84692/exclusive-girls-idragons-agei.html#8)? If so, it's far less stupid than Playboy's digital babes stuff and a far cry from milky tits trading cards. Obviously, neither Angie or most people in this thread are the target for this advertising. That's fine.

I agree there is a problem in the sense there's not a lot of breadth or depth in their advertising efforts. Maybe it's because they think they have the old hardcore crowd locked in as buyers already and are trying to sell their brand to a younger more mainstream audience, which actually might be a valid concern because of the game's material. The sex stuff in the game was a bad idea, not because it would be trashy. Trashy is probably a step up from the awkward mess they made of it in the game.

Actually, sex can be an awkward mess. It's just people making funny faces, funny noises, banging away while saying stupid shit. So maybe they did it right*. Heh.

*Likely, unintentionally.

[Sarkus]

Is this what this thread has become? Railing against Maxim?

Not really. It's just the latest example of a segment of this thread's readers desire to attack the game for its perceived immature nature. They seem to revel in finding something to make fun of, kind of like teenagers in groups like to do. When someone who's opinion they trust, like Desslock, comes by and points out that the game is much more then these smaller things they shut up for awhile.


Maybe it's because they think they have the old hardcore crowd locked in as buyers already and are trying to sell their brand to a younger audience, which actually might be a valid concern because of the game's material.

There's no "maybe" about this. The developers have admitted as such on the game's official boards and defended their position. Whether this marketing approach would have been followed by an independent Bioware can be debated, but whomever is making these decisions now clearly feels that Dragon Age could not be successful as a PC only hard core RPG. So they are making it multi-platform and marketing it to a different crowd.

[Mordrak]

There's no "maybe" about this. The developers have admitted as such on the game's official boards and defended their position. Whether this marketing approach would have been followed by an independent Bioware can be debated, but whomever is making these decisions now clearly feels that Dragon Age could not be successful as a PC only hard core RPG. So they are making it multi-platform and marketing it to a different crowd.


Yeah. I like Mass Effect, don't get me wrong, but it fell short of that excellent teaser video that was linked earlier. From what I understand, it's true of the ODST advertising too. The funeral one is brilliant work... but.. it's just advertising.

Can we all say it together? It's just advertising...*

*Now, if you want a serious critique of images of women, etc. That's a whole different thread than what's going on here.

[Desslock]

From what I've read, and maybe Desslock or others who've played can clarify, there is a relatively accessible location or camp where the NPCs not currently in your active group hang out. Kind of like what the ship was in Mass Effect. Presumably there is some kind of storage available at that location.

There is camp, there is NO storage, or I missed it. DLC only, as far as I know.

You can deposit items to assist groups that ally with you, and you can buy/sell stuff in camp provided that you did something, but there's no way to store excess items, or I missed that ability.

[Adree]

Not really. It's just the latest example of a segment of this thread's readers desire to attack the game for its perceived immature nature. They seem to revel in finding something to make fun of, kind of like teenagers in groups like to do. When someone who's opinion they trust, like Desslock, comes by and points out that the game is much more then these smaller things they shut up for awhile.



There's no "maybe" about this. The developers have admitted as such on the game's official boards and defended their position. Whether this marketing approach would have been followed by an independent Bioware can be debated, but whomever is making these decisions now clearly feels that Dragon Age could not be successful as a PC only hard core RPG. So they are making it multi-platform and marketing it to a different crowd.

It's precious that you think only teenagers play console games. Bioware hasn't made a "hardcore" rpg in a decade, even without EA they know that PC only anything is a waste of money. When you or your marketing team have your characters slutting about in a men's magazine you can't play the "not immature" card anymore.

[Mordrak]

It's precious that you think only teenagers play console games. Bioware hasn't made a "hardcore" rpg in a decade, even without EA they know that PC only anything is a waste of money. When you or your marketing team have your characters slutting about in a men's magazine you can't play the "not immature" card anymore.

Slutting about? I have no doubt the characters would be--given the opportunity--based on the marketing so far and the magazine, but I'm actually curious if what I linked (http://www.maxim.com/girls/girls-of-maxim/84692/exclusive-girls-idragons-agei.html?p=7) is all there is. The photos of Alleykatze at least seem to stock photos of her that can be seen (NSFW) here (http://www.modelmayhem.com/1002969), which are juxtaposed with in game screen shots of the characters.

[Calistas]

I have pretty much decided to do a series of mini-reviews on Unamommer, whenever I reach a story point that feels like a good spot to stop for a recap.

Hurrah :)

Hmm, well I tried the character builder and it works ok, but I get a playing-card sized block of distortion on the left hand side of the character creation screens. Hmmm. That's making me nervous about getting this for PC... Gah. Damn old laptops...

[Adree]

Slutting about? I have no doubt the characters would be--given the opportunity--based on the marketing so far and the magazine, but I'm actually curious if what I linked (http://www.maxim.com/girls/girls-of-maxim/84692/exclusive-girls-idragons-agei.html?p=7) is all there is. The photos of Alleykatze at least seem to stock photos of her that can be seen NSFW here (http://www.modelmayhem.com/1002969), which are juxtaposed with in game screen shots of the characters in the article.

I'm sure the rest will be in Dragon Age: Orifices

[Mordrak]

I'm sure the rest will be in Dragon Age: Orifices

Well, then you will actually have something to bitch about. Yay!

[Sarkus]

It's precious that you think only teenagers play console games. Bioware hasn't made a "hardcore" rpg in a decade, even without EA they know that PC only anything is a waste of money. When you or your marketing team have your characters slutting about in a men's magazine you can't play the "not immature" card anymore.

I know I used the word "teenager" in my post but I don't think you really understood what I was talking about. Teenagers often get into groups and then make fun of things in stupid little ways. Thats what I was referring to in that statement. It had nothing to do with equating console gamers to teenagers or whatever leap you are making.

The second part of my post was replying to something entirely different. I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing there with Bioware's decision to take the game to consoles or market it to those who might find the immature markething appealing. Note that I am not equating consoles and immature marketing. I'm certainly well aware that there are mature console gamers. Sorry if you were confused by the way I worded things.

[JM]

The backlash against the backlash is very confusing.

[syllogism]

There is camp, there is NO storage, or I missed it. DLC only, as far as I know.

You can deposit items to assist groups that ally with you, and you can buy/sell stuff in camp provided that you did something, but there's no way to store excess items, or I missed that ability.

Priestly has repeatedly mentioned the camp having storage
If you leave items in a random chest, tent, barrel, etc it will get taken by someone else before you go back for it. There are storage crates at camp to let you store items.
I would not trust a random chest in an inn or you may lose your stuff. Once you have established a party camp or similar base, there is someplace for you to store extra stuff if you want. The most recent post was less than two weeks ago so it's unlikely to have been cut

[Midnight Son]

I'm annoyed by the character creator only supporting right-handed mouse! WTF? They better get that fixed in the real game....

[Hunty]

Just read a glowingly positive review of this from RPS' John Walker in this month's PC Gamer UK. The buzz on it was so strong that I was going to get it despite the bizzaro marketing, but that's pretty much cemented it. PC, natch.

I won't steal the review's thunder by breaking it down or whatever, but he does mention one thing that made me chuckle a bit. Apparently your parents (if you meet them) are always white. He made his guy black and they had a reverse The Jerk thing going on with no word of explanation. Which, depending on your point of view, is either a great stride forward in the politics of that sort of thing, or a wee bit of an oversight. Oh, no mention of any inventory management woes either.

[Stridergg]

Funny how some people are still on that "bash Dragon Age's marketing campaign" bandwagon even when there is nothing to bash really.

Personally, I find it interesting to see how real life models where modeled into game characters, it's cool to see them side by side. And if I am looking at models, I would prefer them to be beatiful females rather than ugly ones., I've seen enough of ugly models in Morrowind.

Puritans are funny.

[Jag]

I won't steal the review's thunder by breaking it down or whatever, but he does mention one thing that made me chuckle a bit. Apparently your parents (if you meet them) are always white. He made his guy black and they had a reverse The Jerk thing going on with no word of explanation. Which, depending on your point of view, is either a great stride forward in the politics of that sort of thing, or a wee bit of an oversight. Oh, no mention of any inventory management woes either.

Can I name my character Navin R. Johnson?

[Stridergg]

Apparently your parents (if you meet them) are always white. He made his guy black and they had a reverse The Jerk thing going on with no word of explanation.

What kind of explanation would you expect from a game? "Son, now that you are a Grey Warden and all, it's time for you to know. Your actual farther is our neighbor from accross the street but we still love you"? :)

[Angie Gallant]

Did any of you guys read the article that accompanies the pictures? It's not just "DERP PRETTY LADIES," it explicitly insults the future buyers of the game. Because lolololol gamers are losers.

Juxtaposing the in-game models with their real life inspiration could have made for an interesting article if it wasn't in fucking Maxim.

[Hunty]

Strider mate, it was just a little aside. You're kind of missing both points in about three different ways across two slightly odd posts.

Plus, I don't think it's puritanical to reckon that Maxim article is just a touch gratuitous. I was actually referring to the original metal and jerky chopping trailers that made it look shoddy when I mentioned the marketing, but having looked at it, I think the article is really stupid if not outright misogynistic. It kind of insults everyone involved. It's not actually about the mapping of the real people into the game, it's about hurpa durpa boobies. I also think it doesn't show a game that actually looks pretty awesome in a very good light. But then, it's not really aimed at me, is it?

[Wallapuctus]

No, it's aimed at the Madden crowd. You know, the same guys that read Maxim.

EA marketing. Nothing to see here, move along...

[Bill Dungsroman]

Is this what this thread has become? Railing against Maxim? What's next, sports illustrated? It's a mainstream magazine, which many celebrities pose in to promote themselves, their movies, music, or whatever including mostly genre actresses like Mila Jovovich, which if we're being honest is what Bioware games are: genre material. They tend to be better than average, but genre work none the less. Featuring a fetish model who served as reference for a violent fantasy video game isn't really out there for this publication.

Or are we choosing videogames as the start of our feminist revolution against society's sexism?

Dude, what are you talking about? Are you seriously defending the marketing campaign for Dragon Age? It's been unilaterally terrible.



Is this it (http://www.maxim.com/girls/girls-of-maxim/84692/exclusive-girls-idragons-agei.html#8)? If so, it's far less stupid than Playboy's digital babes stuff and a far cry from milky tits trading cards. Obviously, neither Angie or most people in this thread are the target for this advertising. That's fine.

I agree there is a problem in the sense there's not a lot of breadth or depth in their advertising efforts. Maybe it's because they think they have the old hardcore crowd locked in as buyers already and are trying to sell their brand to a younger more mainstream audience, which actually might be a valid concern because of the game's material. The sex stuff in the game was a bad idea, not because it would be trashy. Trashy is probably a step up from the awkward mess they made of it in the game.

OK, see, so isn't it kind of sad that they are playing up what might easily be the worst aspect of the game, merely for cheap prurient interest? What is the problem with commenting on that? I mean, seeing as how you just did.



Actually, sex can be an awkward mess. It's just people making funny faces, funny noises, banging away while saying stupid shit. So maybe they did it right*. Heh.

*Likely, unintentionally.

Jesus, no comment.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Not really. It's just the latest example of a segment of this thread's readers desire to attack the game for its perceived immature nature. They seem to revel in finding something to make fun of, kind of like teenagers in groups like to do. When someone who's opinion they trust, like Desslock, comes by and points out that the game is much more then these smaller things they shut up for awhile.

Revel in it? Hardly. I find it at least mildly depressing and most certainly off-putting. Desslock mentioning that it's a solid hardcore RPG doesn't "shut me up," it allays the fairly legitimate fears that have been building over time that this game was going to be a travesty.



There's no "maybe" about this. The developers have admitted as such on the game's official boards and defended their position. Whether this marketing approach would have been followed by an independent Bioware can be debated, but whomever is making these decisions now clearly feels that Dragon Age could not be successful as a PC only hard core RPG. So they are making it multi-platform and marketing it to a different crowd.

A different crowd that in all likelihood won't like the game because it's too hardcore, maybe? I find it kind of annoying that they are choosing to market against the audience who may actually enjoy the game (perhaps indeed figuring they are going to buy it anyway) and marketing it for a demographic who probably won't enjoy it. Whether they are using tits, free tacos, or a subscription to Bird Fancier's Quarterly is irrelevant to me.

[Tim James]

No, it's aimed at the Madden crowd. You know, the same guys that read Maxim.

EA marketing. Nothing to see here, move along...And EA is going to turn them into fantasy RPG dorks! Haha, suckers. Welcome to Loserville.

<teabag>

[Joe M.]

Free tacos! We must press EA with this new marketing idea.

[Reed]

It's not exactly new for a BioWare game... it's basically how Neverwinter Nights was marketed. Remember the Maxim ads?


To coincide with the US release of Neverwinter Nights infogrames bought a full page ad for the game in the famous men's magazine (read: softcore porn & sports) Maxim. The interesting detail is that unlike other publicity for the game this one was a unique layout that mimicked the monthly "Have you seen this girl?" one-page pictorials of the magazine, which contain a full-page picture of a hot babe along some minimal info a-la playboy (likes, dislikes, etc.). In this case the pictorial shows a beautifully painted nymph named Anna, (wearing nothing but some seashells and vines). Her comments in case you are interested include: "I'm all about beauty but height has never been an issue" (on her dream guy) and "I'm not just a fantasy girl" amongst some other stuff.

[Angie Gallant]

Yes, we do remember that, the coochieconch has already been posted to the thread.

[LesJarvis]

Here's the NWN ad Reed is referencing (not embedded since it's somewhat NSFW-ish):

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4876/maximnwnl6494412qw9.jpg

[BleedTheFreak]

Actually, sex can be an awkward mess. It's just people making funny faces, funny noises, banging away while saying stupid shit.


Sex. Your doing it wrong.

On a (thankfully) unrelated note - looks like Dragon Age Journeys (the turn-based tactical flash game based on Dragon Age) is releasing at noon PST today. Yay! Should be a fun way to kill a few hours, plus you can unlock some in-game loot by playing (probably very low end loot, but still).

[Stridergg]

OK, see, so isn't it kind of sad that they are playing up what might easily be the worst aspect of the game, merely for cheap prurient interest? What is the problem with commenting on that? I mean, seeing as how you just did.

Err, which "worst aspect of the game" exactly are they playing up by posting pictures of models that were used to create the in-game female characters? You think female characters are the worst aspect of the game?

"Oh noes! The game has females!"

Lol.

[edit] BTW this whole Bioware marketing topic is becoming retarded. "Did you see the font Bioware is using on their web site? It's so immature and teenagers-oriented! And why so red? Mature color to use would be green"

[David Erikson]

Here's the NWN ad Reed is referencing (not embedded since it's somewhat NSFW-ish):

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4876/maximnwnl6494412qw9.jpg

Holy cow! This is the most, er... mindboggling game ad that I ever saw. :) Is it for real?

And what on the green earth is that thing that the girl is wearing in place of her underwear?!? Judging by her face expression and body language it must be some kind of magical combination of vibrator, alien lavre from "Alien" movie, and hentai tenticles monster... without tenticles. :)))

[Angie Gallant]

Hey, if you're cool with a company belittling you while asking for your money, that's fine. Some of us aren't and, shockingly, we might decide to talk about it.

[Murbella]

Err, which "worst aspect of the game" exactly are they playing up by posting pictures of models that were used to create the in-game female characters? You think female characters are the worst aspect of the game?

"Oh noes! The game has females!"

Lol.

[edit] BTW this whole Bioware marketing topic is becoming retarded. "Did you see the font Bioware is using on their web site? It's so immature and teenagers-oriented! And why so red? Mature color to use would be green"
I will absolutely not buy this game if it has females in it! It is time to take a stand against bioware's lack of morality!

[Abilio Carvalho]

Err, which "worst aspect of the game" exactly are they playing up by posting pictures of models that were used to create the in-game female characters? You think female characters are the worst aspect of the game?

"Oh noes! The game has females!"

Lol.

[edit] BTW this whole Bioware marketing topic is becoming retarded. "Did you see the font Bioware is using on their web site? It's so immature and teenagers-oriented! And why so red? Mature color to use would be green"

OR he meant the romantic and sexual aspects of the game, widely acknowledged to be kinda retarded and awkward, and you're either intentionally misreading it as an attempt to play a douchebaggy "gotcha" game or you're just missing the point by a mile and trying to pass off as clever and snarky.

Either way, you're showing yourself to be just the type of unthinking fratboy that would actually read Maxim and appreciate the knowledge that Dragon Age is all about jerkoff material for Uncanny Valley fetishists, so it's not like it's out of character for you to defend that marketing campaign.

[Murbella]

Nice logic, "you're either with us, or against us." Ok, we get that Dragon Age is all about jerkoff material for Uncanny Valley fetishists and everyone who doesn't denounce it supports it, now let us enjoy it in peace.

I agree with strider that the crusade against sexually charged marketing is vastly exaggerated in this thread. This is even a game where the female heroes don't wear plate bikinis or the like and actually seemingly wear semi realistic equipment. Did you guys have a heart attack when everquest was released?

[frank austin]

Nice logic, "you're either with us, or against us." Ok, we get that Dragon Age is all about jerkoff material for Uncanny Valley fetishists and everyone who doesn't denounce it supports it, now let us enjoy it in peace.

I agree with strider that the crusade against sexually charged marketing is vastly exaggerated in this thread. This is even a game where the female heroes don't wear plate bikinis or the like and actually seemingly wear semi realistic equipment. Did you guys have a heart attack when everquest was released?

"Leave Dragon Age alone!"

[SirTomster]

Free tacos! We must press EA with this new marketing idea.

Not just regular tacos. Dragon Meat Tacos! No hot sauce required.

[Stridergg]

OR he meant the romantic and sexual aspects of the game, widely acknowledged to be kinda retarded and awkward...

Just in case you didn't notice, this current conversation is about Maxim's article. Mordak even linked to it and made his point. If Bill wants to quote Mordak and argue about his point, he should, surprise, argue about it instead of brining up "romantic and sexual aspects of the game", like they are somehow relevant.

Maxim's article has nothing to do with awkward in-game sex scenes, with bad "This is new shit" trailer and other stuff that's been discussed 2 million times already.

Oh and if you need to insult other people in order to feel better about yourself, feel free to continue. :)

[Charles]

I liked the olden days where if you were going to do stupid crossover marketing with magazines like maxim, the in-game characters had to at least look halfway decent.

Seriously, at this point it's like putting a retarded kid's finger painting in an art gallery and saying "See? Isn't he precious!" Sure, you might get some polite nods, but everyone recognizes it for what it is.

[thinkingork]

People sure like the view from the moral highground.

[SirTomster]

So do we have a breakdown of which CE gets what?

Do we know which is the best? Note this is PC version

Amazon:



3 pieces of exclusive in-game content:

Bergen’s Honor: A massive helmet made out of dragonbone (+2 to armor, +25 physical resistance, +6 to attack).
Grimoire of the Frozen Wates: A special book that adds +3 to all attributes when read.
Final Reason: A magical staff of immense power (adds to damage, spell power, and fire damage).


"The Stone Prisoner" unlockable bonus quest and unlockable character, Shale.


Best Buy:

in-game content, including the Lucky Stone, which adds +1 to all stats, the Lion's Paw, which adds to armor, dodge and evade, and the Edge, a dagger that adds a lot to damage, melee crit and attack.

Steam:

The Wicked Oath

Countess Luciana of Antiva lived as a virtual prisoner in her husband’s castle until an elven slave offered her a way out. The slave magically bound a small amount of the countess’s blood into a ring in return for a promise of freedom. The countess agreed, and the count was found stabbed soon afterwards, this ring lying beside him. Neither Luciana nor the slave were seen again.

* Adds +10% to critical strike damage
* Improves armor penetration by 2
* Adds +1 to combat stamina regeneration


The Memory Band Made by the Formari, these lyrium-infused rings are supposed to help apprentices retain their lessons. They work rather well -- too well, perhaps, as less capable students sometimes wear three or four per finger.


Adds +1% to XP
Adds one skill point


Bergen's Honor When the Grey Warden Bergen knew he was at the end of his life, he descended into the the Deep Roads joined by a full company of the Legion of the Dead. They slew hordes of darkspawn, clearing tunnels that had been lost for centuries. When at last they fell, a lone dwarf brought back Bergen's helm, as well as his defiant and inspirational tale.


Adds +2 to armor
Adds a lot to physical resistance (+25)
Adds to attack (+6)

Final Reason This staff was held by several senior master conjurers of the Circle Tower, passed down from old master to new. Errant students learned to fear it, for when all other forms of discipline failed, the Final Reason would produce obedience at the cost of significant pain and discomfort.


Adds to damage. Making it do as much as the Dragonbone staves
Adds considerably to spellpower
Adds a good chunk to fire damage

Grimoire of the Frozen Wastes Far north of Orthland lies the Frozen Wastes. In these pages are hundreds of harrowing tales describing how the barbarians survive in their icy homeland. The authors' hope their stories will help readers in their times of need. Or at the least prove entertaining.


When read adds +3 to a player's attributes

Warden's Keep Some claim the fortress of Soldier’s Peak is corrupted and overrun by demons. Others whisper of betrayal and the spirits of murdered Grey Wardens. Whatever the truth, Soldier’s Peak is no place for the living.
Relive the darkest hour of the Grey Wardens with all-new content that adds to the main Dragon Age: Origins campaign. This downloadable adventure reveals secrets hidden for generations, and includes unique achievements, unlockable character abilities, powerful items, and much more!


New quests - discover what really happened to the Grey Wardens of old and what led to their expulsion from Ferelden
New features - a base of operations with party storage. Inventory full? Stash new items as well as loot from the main Dragon Age: Origins campaign
New items and abilities - talents and spells from the Power of Blood school, unique achievements, and powerful items including a set of Grey Warden Commander armor


GoGamer:
Doesn't say


Joined the party late. Still wondering if I want purchase at launch. Burned so often with that.

[Cormac]

"Leave Dragon Age alone!"
Good one!

[Fugitive]

So do we have a breakdown of which CE gets what?
Doesn't Steam have that exclusive "Wicked Oath" ring as well?

Impulse looks like it's pretty much the same as Steam aside from that exclusive ring.

[SirTomster]

Doesn't Steam have that exclusive "Wicked Oath" ring as well?

Impulse looks like it's pretty much the same as Steam aside from that exclusive ring.

whups.. yeah. got the 2nd ring but not the first. adding now.

[unbongwah]

Lately I've been ignoring all of DA's marketing: I don't want spoilers and I don't want my expectations warped by it. But my biggest beef with it so far is how schizophrenic it's been. On the one hand you have the DA developers talking about what a dark, gritty, mature, sophisticated epic yarn they've spun, with plenty of crunchy tactical combat to boot. OTOH, you have the EA marketing machine blaring Marilyn Manson, showering us with bloody gore, and attempting to titillate us with awkward sex scenes; I sometimes wonder if I clicked on a Dante's Inferno trailer by mistake.

Make up your minds, folks - either appeal to my better nature with Serious Fantasy or pander to my baser instincts with Puerile Fantasy. Doing both simultaneously is just confusing.

That said, I would totally shell out for a Dragon Age / Brutal Legend crossover.

[Mordrak]

Dude, what are you talking about? Are you seriously defending the marketing campaign for Dragon Age? It's been unilaterally terrible.

OK, see, so isn't it kind of sad that they are playing up what might easily be the worst aspect of the game, merely for cheap prurient interest? What is the problem with commenting on that? I mean, seeing as how you just did.


There's a difference between saying it's bad advertising*, and the kind of righteous indignation that usually bubbles up in these threads. Cheap and prurient isn't always bad.

*Which isn't necessarily the same as unsuccessful.



Juxtaposing the in-game models with their real life inspiration could have made for an interesting article if it wasn't in fucking Maxim.


Sure, but the key difference between you and me is I don't care about "articles" in Maxim.

[Telefrog]

Impulse looks like it's pretty much the same as Steam aside from that exclusive ring.

Is the copy protection the same on both versions?

[jellyfish]

"Leave Dragon Age alone!"
Hahaha. Good one.

Edit: I see Cormac up above already said the same thing. The same exact thing!

[Tony M]

There is camp, there is NO storage, or I missed it. DLC only, as far as I know.

You can deposit items to assist groups that ally with you, and you can buy/sell stuff in camp provided that you did something, but there's no way to store excess items, or I missed that ability.



New features - a base of operations with party storage. Inventory full? Stash new items as well as loot from the main Dragon Age: Origins campaign

If they have withheld the ability to store items, and then try to sell it to me as release day DLC... I will officially be wearing my cranky pants.

I'll be so angry, I will demonstrate my displeasure by giving EA $7. So... let that be a warning to you.

Tony

[Angie Gallant]

Per Chris Priestly (http://www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1255124580) there is permanent item storage at the regular camp, you don't have to get the Warden Keep for it. It doesn't bode well for how clear things are if Desslock missed it, though.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Err, which "worst aspect of the game" exactly are they playing up by posting pictures of models that were used to create the in-game female characters? You think female characters are the worst aspect of the game?

OK, see, this is where again you need to consider where the article appears. Maxim. Had this appeared in PC Gamer (the side-by-side pictures, anyway, never mind the retarded copy text), that might be something else.



"Oh noes! The game has females!"

Lol.

You're retarded and absolutely nobody is arguing that.



[edit] BTW this whole Bioware marketing topic is becoming retarded. "Did you see the font Bioware is using on their web site? It's so immature and teenagers-oriented! And why so red? Mature color to use would be green"

I agree it's become overly and often unfairly critical at times, but it is absolutely not unjustified. It's not just the marketing per se, either. The E3 demo of Dragon Age was pretty terrible as well. Meanwhile, the Mass Effect 2 demo was awesome.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Nice logic, "you're either with us, or against us." Ok, we get that Dragon Age is all about jerkoff material for Uncanny Valley fetishists and everyone who doesn't denounce it supports it, now let us enjoy it in peace.

Yeah, that's my point, it's not. Yet there's a cheesecake spread in Maxim.



I agree with strider that the crusade against sexually charged marketing is vastly exaggerated in this thread. This is even a game where the female heroes don't wear plate bikinis or the like and actually seemingly wear semi realistic equipment. Did you guys have a heart attack when everquest was released?

Are you really this dense? Re-read everyone's earlier posts on the matter, because you clearly missed what everyone's point is regarding this.

[Desslock]

Per Chris Priestly (http://www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1255124580) there is permanent item storage at the regular camp, you don't have to get the Warden Keep for it. It doesn't bode well for how clear things are if Desslock missed it, though.

Guys, I didn't miss anything - there was NO storage at camp. There was an allied "drop box", and there was a merchant/enchanter (who you have to save in an early portion of the game - unsure if they're there if you don't). No place to store items.

It's possible storage was added in after my review build, perhaps because people like me complained about the lack of storage, or because they otherwise further tweaked the game after my review build. But if the retail release is the same as the review build, there is no storage at camp.

The other thing mentioned in this thread that wasn't true of Dragon Age when I played it was the "150 PC achievements" mentioned earlier - there were only 87 for me - a pretty weird number, so I wouldn't be surprised if they added more after that.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Just in case you didn't notice, this current conversation is about Maxim's article. Mordak even linked to it and made his point. If Bill wants to quote Mordak and argue about his point, he should, surprise, argue about it instead of brining up "romantic and sexual aspects of the game", like they are somehow relevant.

Maxim's article has nothing to do with awkward in-game sex scenes, with bad "This is new shit" trailer and other stuff that's been discussed 2 million times already.

Oh, it doesn't, does it? Well maybe you should have read the article, because:


Fortunately, the developers included a couple of ways allowing one's avatar let off some virtual steam: sneaky seductress Leliana and shapeshifting mage Morrigan. Both are possible romantic companions in the game—the second best kind of sex, next to the real thing!—but you don't have to wait until the release date to fall in love with them. We've got exclusive photos of real-life hotties Alleykatze and Victoria Johnson who lent their sexy curves to their video game counterparts. That's some levelling up we can all get behind!

That right there is what I'm arguing.

[Stridergg]

That right there is what I'm arguing.

Lol, the wording in that article is stupid, I agree. But come on, it's Maxim, who would expect anything different from them? Besides, most likely, it's not Bioware or EA who came up with that wording, how can you blame them and their marketing?

Similarly, if it was a PC Gamer article and Desslock said something retarded there (sorry, Desslock, your name came up only because PC Gamer came up earlier and you are reviewing the game for them. I am sure there won't be anything retarded in your article), would you blame Bioware's marketing for that too?


OK, see, this is where again you need to consider where the article appears. Maxim. Had this appeared in PC Gamer (the side-by-side pictures, anyway, never mind the retarded copy text), that might be something else.


And that's just double standard. In fact, IMO Maxim is a very sound choice to get some publicity for a videogame (outside the mainstream videogame press), considering the somewhat intersecting audience. Where else would it be logical to advertise the game - "Brides R Us"? "Home Decorations"? At least it seems logical to me - young males "read" Maxim as well as play videogames.

Maxim managed to fuck up a decent idea with their retarded text, well, it's not the first time when the press fucks up. :)

[Telefrog]

Lol, the wording in that article is stupid, I agree. But come on, it's Maxim, who would expect anything different from them? Besides, most likely, it's not Bioware or EA who came up with that wording, how can you blame them and their marketing?

Similarly, if it was a PC Gamer article and Desslock said something retarded there (sorry, Desslock, your name came up only because PC Gamer came up earlier and you are reviewing the game for them. I am sure there won't be anything retarded in your article), would you blame Bioware's marketing for that too?

The bolded sentences are related somehow. I'll let you figure out exactly how.

[Bahimiron]

In fact, IMO Maxim is a very sound choice to get some publicity for a videogame (outside the mainstream videogame press), considering the somewhat intersecting audience.

Maxim is well-known for offering good gaming journalism for those outside of the 'core' gaming audience.

http://www.games.net/global/radar/blog_images/33353-1.jpg

[Stridergg]

The bolded sentences are related somehow. I'll let you figure out exactly how.

There was some stuff written between them, which is also somehow related. I'll let you figure out exactly how. :)

[Mordrak]

That right there is what I'm arguing.

It actually used to be worse (http://fidgit.com/archives/2009/10/the_women_of_dragon_age.php).



Unless doing it kinky-style with your significant other, role-playing is the second nerdiest thing you could possibly do. Playing role-playing video games is No. 1, which puts Bioware's upcoming RPG Dragon Age: Origins at a severe disadvantage in the "make us interested" category. Fortunately for them, they've got a couple of aces in the hole: sneaky seductress Leliana and shapeshifting mage Morrigan. Both are possible romantic companions in the game, but you don't have to wait until the release date to fall in love with them. We've got exclusive photos of real-life hotties Alleykatze and Victoria Johnson who lent their sexy curves to their video game counterparts.


But again, it's Maxim. Who cares? Do I really care what Maxim readers think of gamers?

[Bahimiron]

But again, it's Maxim. Who cares? Do I really care what Maxim readers think of gamers?

If you work for Bioware PR, one would hope you would.

[Mordrak]

The bolded sentences are related somehow. I'll let you figure out exactly how.

So you're blaming Bioware/EA for advertising in Maxim in the first place? Errr.. what?

[Mordrak]

If you work for Bioware PR, one would hope you would.

Yes, I expect Bioware PR to overturn cultural stereotypes. I really think people need to stop being oversensitive about this stuff.

Edit: It's obvious, they were trying to be funny. I'm sure if we looked through Yahtzee's videos, he exploits gamer stereotypes as well, but we don't all revolt on him. Actually, I have a mental image of his little graphic of MMO players in my head right now. I'm an MMO player. Am I mad at Yahtzee? No. Am I mad at his advertisers? No.

Gamers aren't a protected class. Shit, even Penny Arcade has made fun of the people that come to see them at PAX.

And this didn't eve start because Maxim dared to insult gamers or RPG players or whatever. It was outrage over a stupid Maxim "photo shoot" that wasn't even a photo shoot and then turned into let's attack a random Q&A guy. It's after that we got to.. "but... but... they insulted us!"

[Bahimiron]

Yes, I expect Bioware PR to overturn cultural stereotypes. I really think people need to stop being oversensitive about this stuff.

Do you honestly not get this?

It's not about overturning stereotypes. It's about not insulting your target audience.

I wouldn't try selling Mordrak Foot Powder for Modraks with athelete's food in Mordak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine because my target audience, Mordraks, probably are going to feel that Mordrak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine doesn't really speak to them. In fact, if they were to flip through an issue of Mordrak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine and fine the article on Mordrak Foot Powder and it would say 'Mordraks suck, I think we all agree on that. Mordraks are just the worst. They are a bunch of complete shitheels. But you know what's worse? Mordraks with athlete's foot. Mordrak Foot Powder may only be for total crapbags, but at least it works pretty well.' the Mordraks who read this may very well question my dedication to their market. And they would be right to do so! Mordrak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine is an awful place to target Modraks!


And this didn't eve start because Maxim dared to insult gamers or RPG players or whatever.

That's fine and dandy, but I'm responding to one specific dumb thing that you said, not all of the other dumb things you may have said.

[Joe M.]

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9256/asdfgia.gif

[Mordrak]

It's about not insulting your target audience.

Their target audience is bigger than you. And like I edited above, that's not even how this started. People were angry about prurient photos related to videogames in a prurient photo magazine. Oh noes!



I wouldn't try selling Mordrak Foot Powder for Modraks with athelete's food in Mordak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine because my target audience, Mordraks, probably are going to feel that Mordrak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine doesn't really speak to them. In fact, if they were to flip through an issue of Mordrak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine and fine the article on Mordrak Foot Powder and it would say 'Mordraks suck, I think we all agree on that. Mordraks are just the worst. They are a bunch of complete shitheels. But you know what's worse? Mordraks with athlete's foot. Mordrak Foot Powder may only be for total crapbags, but at least it works pretty well.' the Mordraks who read this may very well question my dedication to their market. And they would be right to do so! Mordrak Is A Dumb Fuck Magazine is an awful place to target Modraks!

What? Dragon Age isn't yours or mine. It was lame snarky comedy. Get over it.

[Bahimiron]

What? Dragon Age isn't yours or mine. It was lame snarky comedy. Get over it.

I...

...

What?

[Telefrog]

So you're blaming Bioware/EA for advertising in Maxim in the first place? Errr.. what?

Yes.

It's not like they supplied Maxim with a regular Dragon Age logo magazine ad. Maxim didn't betray them. Obviously, connecting the dots between which models posed for which characters was done with some PR assistance. I'm going to assume that some unpaid intern didn't spill the casting details and supply the official shots to Maxim without telling someone higher up that the article was going to run.

Pardon the pun, but when EA PR got into bed with Maxim on this, they knew exactly what type of product they were going to get. As Stridergg helpfully pointed out, "it's Maxim, who would expect anything different from them?"

[Mordrak]

I...

...

What?

It's not Mordrak's Dragon Age, it's not Bahimiron's Dragon Age, it's not even Gamer's Dragon Age. It's just Dragon Age.

It is what it is regardless of where or how they advertise it. Neverwinter Nights single player campaign kind of sucked, regardless of stupid nymph spreads. And I hear that Witcher game is pretty decent regardless of milky tits trading cards. At least in the latter, you can complain about the cards because they are in the game.

If want to complain about Dragon Age's crappy sex scenes, minigame, or whatever it is go ahead. Gnashing your teeth over Maxim making fun of NERDS!!!!! is a little silly.



That's fine and dandy, but I'm responding to one specific dumb thing that you said, not all of the other dumb things you may have said.

Continue getting all hot and bothered over a paragraph on men's website that at this point has absolutely no bearing what you will experience when you play Dragon Age.

Come on man, FIGHT THE POWER!

[Mordrak]

Obviously, connecting the dots between which models posed for which characters was done with some PR assistance. I'm going to assume that some unpaid intern didn't spill the casting details and supply the official shots to Maxim without telling someone higher up that the article was going to run.


You mean the official screen shots? Judging for the jaggies, I figure they just cribbed them from somewhere else.

[Eightball]

You mean the official screen shots? Judging for the jaggies, I figure they just cribbed them from somewhere else.

That would likely be a flawed assumption, as there's something a bit illegal with taking other people's work (in this case, images) and publishing it in a paid magazine without their express permission. Perhaps you've heard of something called oh...copyright infringement?

[Bahimiron]

It's not Mordrak's Dragon Age, it's not Bahimiron's Dragon Age, it's not even Gamer's Dragon Age. It's just Dragon Age.

No, it's Bioware's Dragon Age. Or EA's Dragon Age if you want to get down to it. And Bioware and EA are hoping that it will be Angie Gallant's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Bahimiron's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Mordrak's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Bill Dungsroman's licensed copy of Dragon Age and in this instance, they're doing a pretty shitty job of making that happen.



Gnashing your teeth over Maxim making fun of NERDS!!!!! is a little silly.

You're finding passion where there is none. I can offer invective without so much as a 1 BPS pulse increase. I can use brackets and a lowercase i to stress a word without my face getting red. I can curse without raising my voice. Believe me, there is no gnashing of teeth. Though the fact that you think I'm commenting on Maxim making fun of nerds assures me that you are continuing to miss the point. Which, you know what? That's a-okay.

I'll just take it to heart that I don't actually need you to understand.

[Mordrak]

No, it's Bioware's Dragon Age. Or EA's Dragon Age if you want to get down to it. And Bioware and EA are hoping that it will be Angie Gallant's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Bahimiron's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Mordrak's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Bill Dungsroman's licensed copy of Dragon Age and in this instance, they're doing a pretty shitty job of making that happen.


I don't need every single piece of advertising to conform to my specific standards to enjoy something. I don't need advertising to stroke my ego or a Maxim article to tell me what Bioware or EA thinks about me. I already know what they think of me. They dehumanize their customers down to a level far worse than whether RPG players get laid, they reduce us all to numbers in a database.

[Mordrak]

That would likely be a flawed assumption, as there's something a bit illegal with taking other people's work (in this case, images) and publishing it in a paid magazine without their express permission. Perhaps you've heard of something called oh...copyright infringement?

If it's part of a press kit and freely available on the web... I'm not sure, especially if it's a commentary style article (which it partly is). There's something called fair use too? Remember?

I swear to god, copyright is warping people's fucking brains. We are allowed to reproduce work when we are commenting on said work.

[Telefrog]

There's the disconnect.

You believe that EA/Bioware as a corporate entity treats all people as numbers in a database. Each person is a binary entry on a spreadsheet with a blank "Buy/No Buy" column next to each of us, therefore why should we care how we are marketed to?

Some of us believe that although all businesses value customers as a source of money, there are ways to do so without completely insulting their intelligence.

Edit: As for the image issue, does it matter? I think we can safely assume that whether or not Maxim used the press kit materials, there was some cooperation between them and EA/Bioware.

[Vincent19]

I honestly wonder who the target audience for Maxim is. As I see it, the magazine is a lesser-man's Playboy, made for either teenagers or guys who aren't bold enough to show their face purchasing the superior publication.

That being said, as a nerdy RPG gamer who never gets laid and has no social life outside his guild, I'm disappointed that this thread has become more about a couple lines in an obnoxious magazine and less about the imminent game in the thread title.

[Ross Macpherson]

I don't need every single piece of advertising to conform to my specific standards to enjoy something. I don't need advertising to stroke me ego or a Maxim article to tell me what Bioware or EA thinks about me. I already know what they think of me. They dehumanize their customers down to a level far worse than whether RPG players get laid, they reduce us all to numbers in a database.

But how many pieces of advertising do you see that explicitly denigrate the product? The original tone of the piece was very much: "Here are some women who provided the basis for character models for an RPG. Goodness RPGs smell, as do the people who play them."

For the record, I've never felt dehumanized by Bioware.

[Derek French]

Guys, I didn't miss anything - there was NO storage at camp. There was an allied "drop box", and there was a merchant/enchanter (who you have to save in an early portion of the game - unsure if they're there if you don't). No place to store items.

It's possible storage was added in after my review build, perhaps because people like me complained about the lack of storage, or because they otherwise further tweaked the game after my review build. But if the retail release is the same as the review build, there is no storage at camp.

Standard party camp does not have permanent storage. The quote from Chris was concerning Warden's Keep; that is the danger with single quotes without the context of the whole thread.

Adding storage to Warden's Keep was based on preview/review feedback via DLC was the most straightforward way to add it, since the game itself was locked.

[Telefrog]

I honestly wonder who the target audience for Maxim is. As I see it, the magazine is a lesser-man's Playboy, made for either teenagers or guys who aren't bold enough to show their face purchasing the superior publication.

Unfortunately, if the stories are true, the "superior publication" is having some pretty rough times financially, while Maxim seems to show no signs of difficulty.

[Bahimiron]

But how many pieces of advertising do you see that explicitly denigrate the product?

Yes, thank you. I can't believe this got lost in what must have been my earlier frothing frenzy of ferocity. It's not just insulting of the person to whom it is meant to advertise, but it is insulting toward the game itself.

Here's this game. It's crap for nerds*. Look at these boobs.

*Should that be 'the new crap for nerds'?

[Mordrak]

There's the disconnect.

You believe that EA/Bioware as a corporate entity treats all people as numbers in a database. Each person is a binary entry on a spreadsheet with a blank "Buy/No Buy" column next to each of us, therefore why should we care how we are marketed to?

Some of us believe that although all businesses value customers as a source of money, there are ways to do so without completely insulting their intelligence.

But then the only reason they are not insulting your intelligence is so they can take your money. Technically, their whole marketing department is an insult to your intelligence. It's designed to manipulate you.

Who cares when that's the basis for your relationship to the company?

Heck, I think the whining over the trailers is more justified than this tangent.

[Mordrak]

Standard party camp does not have permanent storage. The quote from Chris was concerning Warden's Keep; that is the danger with single quotes without the context of the whole thread.

Adding storage to Warden's Keep was based on preview/review feedback via DLC was the most straightforward way to add it, since the game itself was locked.

Microtransactions fueling bad game design. Wooo! Welcome to the future.

[Mordrak]

Here's this game. It's crap for nerds*. Look at these boobs.

*Should that be 'the new crap for nerds'?

A marketing department trips over itself selling a product. And....?

I know I like to buy things based on marketing rather than whether I'd actually like the thing being sold.

The only reason this should be an issue is if you think it's representative of the game. Do you think the NPCs are going to turn around and call you a loser every 15 minutes? Well, I wouldn't buy it then either.

[Murbella]

Maybe we need a separate dragon ages thread just to cry about the marketing?

[Adam Altmann]

But how many pieces of advertising do you see that explicitly denigrate the product? The original tone of the piece was very much: "Here are some women who provided the basis for character models for an RPG. Goodness RPGs smell, as do the people who play them."

The marketing for this game has been awful, no question. I stopped paying attention to anything about the game after watching a couple of the first teaser videos. I'll agree completely that the marketing has done more to get me to not buy the game than it has to get me to buy it. It's been...stupid bad.

However, that's all it's been, stupid bad. The Maxim thing? Whatever. Maxim's whole deal is being the magazine with pictures of hot(?) chicks in it. I don't see how Maxim's Chicks From Dragon's Age: Origins is any different from practically every magazine on the planet having Megan Fox on the cover. If anything, that it's even in the magazine is a testament to how videogaming is becoming mainstream, which ironically reinforces the stupidity of the text saying "Ha, ha! Gamers are dorks!"

I'm not buying for a second that any of you are deeply wounded by dorky shit being called dorky shit. You're all smart enough to know better. This marketing campaign isn't insulting your intelligence. I'd like to think it's clearly demonstrating that EA/Bioware PR is out of touch, because I very much want to avoid the What does this say about my interests? existential crisis I'm going to have if it turns out they're Right On the Money with this campaign.

[Imryll]

Do you think the NPCs are going to turn around and call you a loser every 15 minutes? Well, I wouldn't buy it then either.

Heh. My husband never finished Might and Magic VII because of the shopkeepers reaction when he chose not to buy anything.

[Joe M.]

No, it's Bioware's Dragon Age. Or EA's Dragon Age if you want to get down to it. And Bioware and EA are hoping that it will be Angie Gallant's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Bahimiron's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Mordrak's licensed copy of Dragon Age and Bill Dungsroman's licensed copy of Dragon Age and in this instance, they're doing a pretty shitty job of making that happen.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the PR department couldn't give less of a crap whether it's your copy of Dragon Age. That wasn't their intent with the Maxim thing, obviously.

[Sir Digby]

All this talk about DLC-driven marketing just makes me think of Oblivion and how it (and it's multiple DLC packs) were pirated over and over and over to the point you could get "All DLC and Expansion Packs Included!" torrents all over the place.

[Murbella]

yeah obviously there is near 100% chance the dlc will be available for download, but dlc (specifically shale) is probably targeted at the used market, not pirates.

[Ross Macpherson]

The marketing for this game has been awful, no question. I stopped paying attention to anything about the game after watching a couple of the first teaser videos. I'll agree completely that the marketing has done more to get me to not buy the game than it has to get me to buy it. It's been...stupid bad.

However, that's all it's been, stupid bad. The Maxim thing? Whatever. Maxim's whole deal is being the magazine with pictures of hot(?) chicks in it. I don't see how Maxim's Chicks From Dragon's Age: Origins is any different from practically every magazine on the planet having Megan Fox on the cover. If anything, that it's even in the magazine is a testament to how videogaming is becoming mainstream, which ironically reinforces the stupidity of the text saying "Ha, ha! Gamers are dorks!"

I'm not buying for a second that any of you are deeply wounded by dorky shit being called dorky shit. You're all smart enough to know better. This marketing campaign isn't insulting your intelligence. I'd like to think it's clearly demonstrating that EA/Bioware PR is out of touch, because I very much want to avoid the What does this say about my interests? existential crisis I'm going to have if it turns out they're Right On the Money with this campaign.

I agree with the first part of your comment - I've enjoyed pretty much every Bioware game I've ever played but the marketing for Dragon Age had more or less convinced me not to buy the game. Only the positive comments from people like Desslock have changed my mind.

I don't understand your point about Megan Fox. I don't actually read Maxim, I'm afraid, because while I am male I also have a functioning brain. For your analogy to be apt, these magazines would have to feature the pictures of Megan Fox alongside text that said "She's a horrible actress and her movies are terrible and for losers." (I don't imagine this actually happens, but if I'm wrong please correct me.) I don't think anyone is surprised by the use of sex in advertising; what was surprising to me in the article was, as my comment hopefully made explicit, the negative slant toward the product they were ostensibly selling. I'm not sure if your last paragraph was at all directed at me but I'm not "deeply wounded" and I doubt anyone else is either.

Regardless, despite the marketing, I'm actually really looking forward to playing Dragon Age. Ironically, I'll probably enjoy it more due to my expectations being lowered by the rather inept and puerile videos, etc..

[Eightball]

If it's part of a press kit and freely available on the web... I'm not sure, especially if it's a commentary style article (which it partly is). There's something called fair use too? Remember?

I swear to god, copyright is warping people's fucking brains. We are allowed to reproduce work when we are commenting on said work.

I think you need to review the basics of the fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) defense. In this case, if they took the images without permission to push their own magazine sales, and Bioware believed that this representation may damage sales, a judge is likely to determine that this defense would not be acceptable as it would fail the first and fourth factors of the four factor test.

Review of a product is definitely encompassed within the fair use exception. This is a different beast.

[Cormac]

All this talk about DLC-driven marketing just makes me think of Oblivion and how it (and it's multiple DLC packs) were pirated over and over and over to the point you could get "All DLC and Expansion Packs Included!" torrents all over the place.

So what you're saying is that instead of getting upset that marketing isn't directed at us, we should just say to hell with them and skip the nickel and diming DLC and just pirate everything?

[Squee]

Sounds pretty good.

[Mordrak]

I think you need to review the basics of the fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) defense. In this case, if they took the images without permission to push their own magazine sales, and Bioware believed that this representation may damage sales, a judge is likely to determine that this defense would not be acceptable as it would fail the first and fourth factors of the four factor test.

Review of a product is definitely encompassed within the fair use exception. This is a different beast.

Errm, I disagree. I think you're over simplifying it. They are only using part of the original work (certainly they aren't replicating the game). Profit only plays a small part in determining fair use.

I could take screenshots from the game, publish them to mock it, I don't think they could reasonably win a case against that. Copyright doesn't exist to prevent bad publicity.

[Shmtur]

Maybe we need a separate dragon ages thread just to cry about the marketing?

The game needs to come out so people will stop pissing in the wind and start playing it instead.

[Eightball]

Errm, I disagree. I think you're over simplifying it. They are only using part of the original work (certainly they aren't replicating the game). Profit only plays a small part in determining fair use.

I could take screenshots from the game, publish them to mock it, I don't think they could reasonably win a case against that. Copyright doesn't exist to prevent bad publicity.

Again, it's different, you're not a commercial enterprise. And it's doubtful that you could markedly affect the commercial opinion of Dragon's Age. That's not really the case with Maxim.

Read Perfect 10 vs. Google, and how the court deconstructs Google's fair use defense. That's a good parallel. And I'd also recommend Judge Leval's 1990 paper on the Fair Use Doctrine.

But you know what, this is a nerdy conversation, and reflective of the fact that I'm a risk-averse lawyer. All I know is that if they were my client, or if this situation was before my company, I would absolutely insist that they obtain a license to use the images before they use them. Maybe not for a game review...but for something like this, absolutely. Because even if you can assert a fair use defense (and remember, it's not an ironclad defense), that still means you're going to trial and aside from any infringement decision, the legal fees alone just aren't worth it.

[Adam Altmann]

I don't understand your point about Megan Fox. I don't actually read Maxim, I'm afraid, because while I am male I also have a functioning brain. For your analogy to be apt, these magazines would have to feature the pictures of Megan Fox alongside text that said "She's a horrible actress and her movies are terrible and for losers." (I don't imagine this actually happens, but if I'm wrong please correct me.) I don't think anyone is surprised by the use of sex in advertising; what was surprising to me in the article was, as my comment hopefully made explicit, the negative slant toward the product they were ostensibly selling.

I could have elaborated on the Megan Fox stuff, I didn't make the best point. What I was trying to say, basically, is that Maxim is going to have pictures of half naked chicks in it regardless of whether or not it has anything about Dragon Age in it. Scantily clad actresses are the norm for this type of thing. They're all over the place. (Case in point, Megan Fox.) That this Maxim's got Dragon Age chicks instead of Transformers XVII chicks speaks to how far video games have come as a popular medium.

That they're trying to make a joke at the gamer's expense while simultaneously promoting a game isn't insulting, it's just stupid. Why people are getting upset over Maxim looking like a bunch of jackasses I can't figure out. I mean, it's just so astronomically stupid (the text of the article).


I'm not sure if your last paragraph was at all directed at me but I'm not "deeply wounded" and I doubt anyone else is either.

That's what I was trying to say. Is any adult honestly offended by "Gamers can't get laid! Ha!" ? Shit like that is a big red flag for "Hey! I'm an asshole!" Now, if that's what we're bitching about here, I can get behind that...but claiming you're insulted by this is a bit of a stretch.

[Dave Weinstein]

Interest level in advertising discussion: 0

Interest level in advertising discussion if it magically leads to electronic download versions being released for this weekend: Off scale

[Adam Altmann]

Alright, I'm dropping it.

I'm lukewarm about the game. I'll pick it up if word of mouth is pretty good. Who am I kidding, I'll probably break down completely and get it on release day while telling myself I know better. The teaser videos I watched have killed the optimism I once had. I'm now in a state of, "Well, I hope it doesn't suck."

I think it'll be nice to play a fantasy RPG by Bioware that isn't Dungeons and Dragons bent to fit.

[Murbella]

Watching the origins movies did a lot to make me want the game, as did the play through linked a while back where they went through that tower thing.

[Angie Gallant]

This is not helping. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/shut-up-dragon-age/58070)

Also, I think any backlash they get for permanent storage being DLC-only will be well-deserved. Which won't stop me from getting it because I am an idiot.

[RepoMan]

Jeez, I'm glad I didn't watch any teaser videos or scrutinize any video ads for this game. Because it sounds like everyone who did got pissed off and/or turned off, and now can't SHUT UP!

Seriously, preview videos never do shit for anybody. Wait until the goddamned demo and then see for yourself. And ad campaigns? With the exception of the Brutal Legend winning NASCAR car, why would anyone look to an ad campaign for any kind of awesomeness quotient?

PLAY THE DEMO OR WAIT FOR THE REVIEWS! Other than that, limit yourself purely to bullet points and first-hand previews. All other marketing collateral will simply POISON YOUR BRAIN AND TURN YOU INTO A WHINGING FOOL.

Well, except for actual gameplay footage. That is fine.

[Bill Dungsroman]

The marketing for this game has been awful, no question. I stopped paying attention to anything about the game after watching a couple of the first teaser videos. I'll agree completely that the marketing has done more to get me to not buy the game than it has to get me to buy it. It's been...stupid bad.

However, that's all it's been, stupid bad. The Maxim thing? Whatever. Maxim's whole deal is being the magazine with pictures of hot(?) chicks in it. I don't see how Maxim's Chicks From Dragon's Age: Origins is any different from practically every magazine on the planet having Megan Fox on the cover. If anything, that it's even in the magazine is a testament to how videogaming is becoming mainstream, which ironically reinforces the stupidity of the text saying "Ha, ha! Gamers are dorks!"

I'm not buying for a second that any of you are deeply wounded by dorky shit being called dorky shit. You're all smart enough to know better. This marketing campaign isn't insulting your intelligence. I'd like to think it's clearly demonstrating that EA/Bioware PR is out of touch, because I very much want to avoid the What does this say about my interests? existential crisis I'm going to have if it turns out they're Right On the Money with this campaign.

We're not, see. We're just calling it what it is, same as you, but for whatever reason there is strong opposition to this sentiment.

[rhinohelix]

Unless the game is about a sprawling epic tale of people splitting hairs over video game advertising strategy and pedantic doublespeak, something has gone seriously wrong in this thread. We need a new one when it hits retail in order to separate old and busted from new hotness.

I am enjoy the heck of out Dragon Age: Journeys. For a browser based Flash game, its pretty cool. I ordered the Collector's Edition from Impulse based off that 20% survey coupon. Anyone had any release day issues with them? This is one case where I would love to have the extras from the physical box but I also love not having to keep up with game disks these days.

[mkozlows]

This is not helping. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/shut-up-dragon-age/58070)

I think that actually looks pretty awesome. It's the same slightly-cheesy writing as you'd see in Baldur's Gate, only now with inexplicable voice-acting that makes it MUCH MUCH worse.

Mass Effect was a weird game for me, in that I turned off subtitles and actually listened to people talk, as it seemed more natural and cinematic. This game seems more like one where I will do my traditional "read and interrupt" method.

"I think tha-" "I see thou-" "Is it tr-" "But nay goo-"

[Sarkus]

This is not helping. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/shut-up-dragon-age/58070)



You must have hated Treebeard in the LOTR movies then as well. I really don't think this is any worse. It's also hard to come to a definative judgement about a scene like that when it is presented out of context.

Let's be realstic. All fantasy, regardless of whether it's a movie, novel, or game, has some elements that are less then perfect based on our individual tastes. Rhyming trees may seem to whimsical to some but enchanting to others. A sidequest may move one person and have no impact on another. An NPC may seem awesome to one group of fans and ridiculous to others (see Minsc and Boo).

[Chris Nahr]

I didn't even get to the rhyming tree because I was nauseated by the idiotic quips the fighters kept spouting with every attack. Can you turn those off?

[Chris Nahr]

Heh. My husband never finished Might and Magic VII because of the shopkeepers reaction when he chose not to buy anything.

LET THEM EAT CAAAKE!!!

Thanks for reminding me... incidentally that's another way in which Demon's Souls captures the greatness of Might and Magic VI+.

[Sir Digby]

So what you're saying is that instead of getting upset that marketing isn't directed at us, we should just say to hell with them and skip the nickel and diming DLC and just pirate everything?

No, I never said that nor implied anything similar, I merely stated a fact: DLC-driven marketing leads to "bundled"; piracy. You can get upset all you want, doesn't change a thing unless you are the head of marketing for a major company (distributor). The fact remains that regardless of all the measures a company takes to avoid piracy it's simply unavoidable; be it online activation, steam-platform system, tages or securom, whatever, pirates always find a way. The sensible way, IMO, would be to provide the customer (aka me and you) with a good game that is WORTH buying and skip the DLC bullcrap.

[BleedTheFreak]

This is not helping. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/shut-up-dragon-age/58070)

Also, I think any backlash they get for permanent storage being DLC-only will be well-deserved. Which won't stop me from getting it because I am an idiot.

What was wrong with that? I thought the voice sounded interesting and I was enjoying it. Maybe your standards are too high?

[Tom Chick]

You guys complaining about the discussion of marketing, DLC, and reviews of early builds need to look at the subject header. This is the thread about the countdown to Dragon Age, which includes all that ancillary stuff. The actual game will almost certainly get its own thread(s), which will gladly ignore stupid Maxim pictorials.

-Tom

[BleedTheFreak]

You guys complaining about the discussion of marketing, DLC, and reviews of early builds need to look at the subject header. This is the thread about the countdown to Dragon Age, which includes all that ancillary stuff. The actual game will almost certainly get its own thread(s), which will gladly ignore stupid Maxim pictorials.

-Tom

Thank the maker.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Errm, I disagree. I think you're over simplifying it. They are only using part of the original work (certainly they aren't replicating the game). Profit only plays a small part in determining fair use.

I could take screenshots from the game, publish them to mock it, I don't think they could reasonably win a case against that. Copyright doesn't exist to prevent bad publicity.

Mordrak, we can argue the ethics or whatever else regarding this just fine, but I think you arguing that Bioware wasn't entirely and fully complicit in the Maxim spread is kind of ridiculous.

[Desslock]

Standard party camp does not have permanent storage. The quote from Chris was concerning Warden's Keep; that is the danger with single quotes without the context of the whole thread.

Adding storage to Warden's Keep was based on preview/review feedback via DLC was the most straightforward way to add it, since the game itself was locked.

Thanks for the vindication.

[Kalle]

Adding storage to Warden's Keep was based on preview/review feedback via DLC was the most straightforward way to add it, since the game itself was locked.

A reasonable explanation, but it's still price-gouging however you want to dress it up. It's the new bloody horse armor and a nice way to piss off your customer base.

[Angie Gallant]

You must have hated Treebeard in the LOTR movies then as well. I really don't think this is any worse. It's also hard to come to a definative judgement about a scene like that when it is presented out of context.

Let's be realstic. All fantasy, regardless of whether it's a movie, novel, or game, has some elements that are less then perfect based on our individual tastes. Rhyming trees may seem to whimsical to some but enchanting to others. A sidequest may move one person and have no impact on another. An NPC may seem awesome to one group of fans and ridiculous to others (see Minsc and Boo).

Yes, and I am talking about my individual tastes.

[mkozlows]

It's the new bloody horse armor and a nice way to piss off your customer base.

No, it's worse than horse armor. Horse armor was just a decorative element that you didn't need to buy in any way if you didn't want it. This is a response to complaints in late testing. Five years ago, this would have gone into the 1.1 patch; now they're charging money for it. This is precisely the sort of thing that anti-DLC people direly predicted would happen.

[greg wak]

A reasonable explanation, but it's still price-gouging however you want to dress it up. It's the new bloody horse armor and a nice way to piss off your customer base.

Dosn't Wardens keep have it's own quest line? That's a lot better than horse armor imo

[Cormac]

No, I never said that nor implied anything similar, I merely stated a fact: DLC-driven marketing leads to "bundled"; piracy. You can get upset all you want, doesn't change a thing unless you are the head of marketing for a major company (distributor). The fact remains that regardless of all the measures a company takes to avoid piracy it's simply unavoidable; be it online activation, steam-platform system, tages or securom, whatever, pirates always find a way. The sensible way, IMO, would be to provide the customer (aka me and you) with a good game that is WORTH buying and skip the DLC bullcrap.

Very true.. Was just poking a bit of fun. Piracy happens, and DLC isn't really changing that fact.

Its a pitty that Bioware decided to go with a DLC approach for things that could / should have been done via a patch (eg permanent storage). I guess more acceptable forms of DLC are additional content such as mission packs, as I'm assuming the game will be large and long enough to be enjoyable without having those...

Though as others have pointed out, that that could end up providing a tempting secondary income, where content is cut out of a full game in order to be sold seperately. As always the "value" of that extra content then just depends on the size / length of the inital game.

[Desslock]

No, it's worse than horse armor. Horse armor was just a decorative element that you didn't need to buy in any way if you didn't want it.

No, it isn't. Horse armor was just stupid and unnecessary (it served no purpose in the game), and overpriced. Having a loot stash would be valuable, but also isn't necessary in the game - it's not a 'monty-haul' type game with tons of magic items, and it was clearly a design decision to (like many games) require you to manage your resources.

It's one of the few RPGs where money always remains really useful, however

[shang]

I have to agree that only having the storage in the DLC seems a bit scummy even though I'm normally not that anti-DLC. I'm fine with paying for extra content like quests, even if they are day 1 DLC, but holding back (arguably important) convenience features like that just crosses my personal line.

[Desslock]

I agree it's annoying. Very. If they don't think it was necessary for design reasons, then they should have stuck to their guns.

...Just not as ridiculous as Horse Armor, lol.

[TurinTur]

Uh, It's the other way Desslock!

Horse armor wasn't a problem because it didn't affect the gameply. So you just don't buy it, and there isn't any problems.

But DLC that affects the gameplay, and with that meaning the original gameplay is a bit lacking in one feature that the dlc adds, that's a real problem.

[stusser]

The game desslock reviewed for the only remaining PC gaming magazine in the US didn't include that DLC. If item storage filled an integral deficiency in the game the publishers certainly would have given it to him.

DLC that positively affects gameplay in a real way is a good thing, because it means the DLC might actually be worth some money and isn't totally worthless garbage. Like horse armor.

[TurinTur]

No, it's a bad thing, because it means the game i bought with my money have less value.

[stusser]

No, it's a bad thing, because it means the game i bought with my money have less value.
Less value than what, exactly? It's the same game everybody else got, and the same game being reviewed in magazines and whatnot.

If the game really suffered for the lack of item storage you might have a point. But the only person here who's actually played the damn thing says it doesn't.

[Kalle]

If you want in-game storage, regardless of how useful it is, you have to pay $7 for the DLC. Asking "why the hell can't I get item storage included for the $60 I paid for the damn game?", particularly when it's released on the same day, is hardly an unreasonable POV.

[TurinTur]

New stuff like a new adventure in a new scenario with new monsters... that's all right in a paid DLC.

But to pay extra bucks to have a permanent storage where you can store items and weapons?? If it is worth to pay because it is useful, that means it would be also useful if it would be included in the original game, and that game suffers without it. And if the game doesn't suffer without it, it means it's also not useful and unworthy in the paid DLC.

[idrisz]

Day 1 DLC is lame, and I hope modding community will add personal storage soon.

[Cormac]

To be fair, I think by now we have pretty much covered all of the pros & cons on the topic of DLC...

So Desslock, is the music in the game any good? (lame attempt at redirecting this thread...)

[Desslock]

So Desslock, is the music in the game any good? (lame attempt at redirecting this thread...)

Yes, although not as varied as I would like - not as good as Icewind Dale or BG2, but the tunes aren't as simple either - definitely a plus in the game.

[Joe M.]

Well the simple solution would be to patch in the storage anyway, whether you buy the DLC or not. They aren't obligated to, of course, but it'd go a ways towards satisfying the angry mob.

[Sarkus]

Well the simple solution would be to patch in the storage anyway, whether you buy the DLC or not. They aren't obligated to, of course, but it'd go a ways towards satisfying the angry mob.

That's kind of my sense.

However, I can't really get too upset about it. To be honest, I think almost everyone was planning to buy the first DLC even before this news so in that sense it doesn't change much.

[Mordrak]

If the game really suffered for the lack of item storage you might have a point. But the only person here who's actually played the damn thing says it doesn't.

Except, Derek French mentioned that adding storage was due to review/preview feedback, which suggests the game actually did suffer for it.



Adding storage to Warden's Keep was based on preview/review feedback via DLC was the most straightforward way to add it, since the game itself was locked.


The wording is a bit unclear, but that DLC was the most straightforward way implies it was feedback on the core game unless the keep throws mountains of loot at you by itself.

[Mordrak]

However, I can't really get too upset about it. To be honest, I think almost everyone was planning to buy the first DLC even before this news so in that sense it doesn't change much.

Except for the price of the game? No, not all of us were planning to buy the DLC. I'm still not going to. I may wait to buy either until it gets rolled into the core game at this point.

[Mordrak]

Mordrak, we can argue the ethics or whatever else regarding this just fine, but I think you arguing that Bioware wasn't entirely and fully complicit in the Maxim spread is kind of ridiculous.

I was more jumping on the copyright issue than seriously suggesting Bioware was unaware of the article.

[Damien Neil]

However, I can't really get too upset about it. To be honest, I think almost everyone was planning to buy the first DLC even before this news so in that sense it doesn't change much.

I wasn't planning on buying it, and the decision to charge an extra $7 for substantial changes to the game balance has be seriously considering whether I should just wait until the day when I can buy Dragon Age and the collected DLC at a budget price.

[Kalle]

Between the storage and the multiple edition pre-order fuckery I can honestly say that my desire to get Dragon Age isn't very highright now. No matter what I buy I'll end up feeling like Bioware is trying to squeeze every last penny out of me and that unless I'm buying the ULTRA MEGA SUPER EDITION preorder from Retailer X I'm missing out. I'd rather not deal with that kind of bullshit.

[Sarkus]

Between the storage and the multiple edition pre-order fuckery I can honestly say that my desire to get Dragon Age isn't very highright now. No matter what I buy I'll end up feeling like Bioware is trying to squeeze every last penny out of me and that unless I'm buying the ULTRA MEGA SUPER EDITION preorder from Retailer X I'm missing out. I'd rather not deal with that kind of bullshit.

I can understand not being happy about the DLC, but what does that have to do with all the crap editions they are offering? I mean seriously, if you are that upset that you can't get every stupid minor magic item that they offer, or all that CE junk, then your problems are bigger then whether to buy a game and you should focus on them. It's like those morons that are complaining about the flash game because they don't like it but apparently feel they must play it so they can get the helmet item. Honestly, who cares about that stuff.

[Mordrak]

I can understand not being happy about the DLC, but what does that have to do with all the crap editions they are offering? I mean seriously, if you are that upset that you can't get every stupid minor magic item that they offer, or all that CE junk, then your problems are bigger then whether to buy a game and you should focus on them. It's like those morons that are complaining about the flash game because they don't like it but apparently feel they must play it so they can get the helmet item. Honestly, who cares about that stuff.

Gamers? Nearly the whole industry is built on the Pavlovian design principle of collecting shinies.

[Kalle]

It's not a big thing. It's a small thing. But it's still annoying. I have to make a choice if it's worth my time to buy a game from retailer X instead of retailer Y because retailer X is offering a Cloak of Magicosity while retailer Y is offering a Ring of Empowering. If they cost the same then I should pick the one with the item I prefer, but I have no way of comparing them. So whatever I pick I might have preferred the other one. I know I should just go "fuck it" and ignore it all, but my instincts go "ooh, shiny loot!".

[Gendal]

It's one of the few RPGs where money always remains really useful, however
That's one of the best things I have heard, I always feel sad when I get to the point in a game where money ceases to be useful or I have an infinite amount of it. Does this hold true for somebody who does most, if not all, of the side quests? Guessing so based on reading how you play.

[thurauh1]

What's big deal?

Isn't Bioware known for using real life models as reference of its game characters?

They did this Mass Effect. And they are doing the same for Dragon Age. I am pretty sure they are doing it for the male characters in the game too. Does that make them homosexual?

Yes, Bioware uses real life models for their in game characters. However, I didn't see the real life male model being touted in the equivalent of Maxim Magazine. Maybe Bioware showed him off in a regular magazine or in a newspaper article?

The point here is that EA and Bioware decided to show off the (young)women in DA; Wynne, apparently not so much, in Maxim, a Men's Magazine.

I know this is marketing. And it works. Probably.

I'm just kind of mellow and a little bit sad :( to see the only company (Bioware) that up till now had been the one good example of making and selling games without doing what the bulk of game dev. houses and publishing houses do: use sex, violence and hawt women to sell games.

[Murbella]

It is maxim, why would they show men or old women?

This thread is proof that their marketing works very well at getting everyone talking about it.

How to market anything effectively: "use sex, violence and hawt women to sell [Insert any product in the world here]." Funny how nobody talked about it in the brutal legend thread.

[KWhit]

What the hell is wrong with hawt women?

[Joe M.]

Unfortunately, the in-game shots are god awful. I don't know why they would want them plastered all over some men's magazine as a representation of their game.

That's my only quibble with it the Maxim thing, however. I don't care much where they advertise so long as the game is good!

[Larinson]

Yes, although not as varied as I would like - not as good as Icewind Dale or BG2, but the tunes aren't as simple either - definitely a plus in the game.

It's kind of a shame that you don't rate it as highly as those two - I think that of all genres, RPG is he genre most open to being effected by music. I still recall walking along in Morrowind, listening to that music which still brings back pleasant memories. Having the right music kicking in at the right point can greatly enhance the RPG experience. Most recently LOTRO has done this for me - the music in the Trollshaws made playing the game feel so much more epic, whilst the Tom Bombadil music managed to add a homely and jolly feel to the game.

So yes, more music investment please!

[BigWeather]

It's kind of a shame that you don't rate it as highly as those two - I think that of all genres, RPG is he genre most open to being effected by music. I still recall walking along in Morrowind, listening to that music which still brings back pleasant memories. Having the right music kicking in at the right point can greatly enhance the RPG experience. Most recently LOTRO has done this for me - the music in the Trollshaws made playing the game feel so much more epic, whilst the Tom Bombadil music managed to add a homely and jolly feel to the game.

So yes, more music investment please!

Ultima series also says "hail".

Of course, Brutal Legend may have trumped the RPGs in "music as part of the game and making it even more awesome" department.

[SirTomster]

Between the storage and the multiple edition pre-order fuckery I can honestly say that my desire to get Dragon Age isn't very highright now. No matter what I buy I'll end up feeling like Bioware is trying to squeeze every last penny out of me and that unless I'm buying the ULTRA MEGA SUPER EDITION preorder from Retailer X I'm missing out. I'd rather not deal with that kind of bullshit.


I am treading down that path myself.

Start: Meh. Wait a bit. (Shiny Index 2)
Stage 1: Hmm looks interesting. Lots of interest on it. (Shiny Index 5)
Stage 2: Oh yeah getting this on Day 1 (Shiny Index 10)
Stage 3: Hmm WTF, special stuff depending where I buy it? (Shiny Index 9)
Stage 4: Hmmm gotta by a damn bag to hold my loot? Not buy in game but pay MORE money for? Shit, am I going to end up paying $100 for this game to make it playable? (Shiny Index 6)
Stage 5: Hmm I need to read the forums some more and do more research on this now. (Shiny Index 5)


Guess I peaked early. Now heading the other way. Guess it is a good thing I am a cheapskate and hold off on spending that much moolah.

[Alistair]

I've just heard MW2 doesn't have a place to store loot. Boycott! Boycott!

[Mordrak]

I've just heard MW2 doesn't have a place to store loot. Boycott! Boycott!

MechWarrior 2?

[BleedTheFreak]

Stage 4: Hmmm gotta by a damn bag to hold my loot? Not buy in game but pay MORE money for? Shit, am I going to end up paying $100 for this game to make it playable? (Shiny Index 6)

You might want to go back and actually get some facts.

[mkozlows]

Guess I peaked early. Now heading the other way. Guess it is a good thing I am a cheapskate and hold off on spending that much moolah.

Once the game comes out, everyone will like it, except people who don't like Bioware games but are holding out vain hope they'll like this one.

[Timsfker]

MechWarrior 2?

I've made that mistake many times in the past year as well.

[Kadath]

What is he talking about if not mechwarrior 2?

[Joe M.]

There's this somewhat obscure game (http://modernwarfare2.infinityward.com/) coming out soon, I think.

[Murbella]

It was a typo in Alistair's post. When he said he heard mw2 doesn't have a place to store loot, he meant it doesn't have a place to store dedicated servers. Everyone would have instantly got it then obviously.

[Enidigm]

So... um. I liked Oblivion, probably better than Fallout 3, although i'll admit FO3 was the better game, mainly because i could go anywhere and customize my character so much. I like Drakensang a lot - it's round and attractive game that has a fleshed out feel and attention to unimportant but atmospheric detail that i enjoy and that shows the designers cared about the game they were making. It's also fairly difficult and requires a little more attention than the average RPG.

I've got the PC version of this game on pre-order to burn up my Amazon credits i've accrued. From what i saw in videos, this game looks like a sort of ugly, serious, chaotic RPG that takes itself too seriously. I've never played any Bioware game, ever, so i don't know what to expect. Should i keep it?

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Do you like RPGs with a strong story?

edit:
By that I mean, where the story is a major component of the game. Oblivion had a mediocre story but it wasn't a major part of the experience. Morrowind had an excellent story that also wasn't a major part of the actual game. The Witcher has a good story that is also a major part of the game.

[Enidigm]

I do like a strong story, but i get the vibe that the story is "omg bad guys (and dragons!) are trying to destroy the world, what will u do mighty hero? (and dragons!)" Which is pretty much the story of Diablo.

Morrowind had a great story, and in fact, Oblivion has a pretty awesome story, it's just a bit more subtle and requires you to read into it more than in Morrowind. I thought Fallout 3's story hook was by contrast incredibly lame, though they were trying for the same thing, basically, as in Oblivion.

[Sarkus]

If you liked Drakensang, I'd be surprised if you didn't like Dragon Age. While the PC version supports a more drawn back view, you can certainly play it in closer, all the way to something similar to other recent Bioware RPGs. And there are other gameplay similarities, it appears, in that you "fast travel" around a map like with a chance of an encounter, just like in Drakensang.

[Murbella]

Wow... You are the first person i've met that didn't see fallout3's poor main story as a direct improvement over oblivion's, which says a lot for the quality of oblivion's story as much as anything else. I'd argue that fallout3 is basically an upgrade to oblivion, fixing or improving many problems that plagued oblivion.

And no, i didn't get the same vibe from Dragon age, nor do i see how it has any relation to diablo at all.

As far as Drakensang, i'd have to agree with sarkus. Drakensang is one of the "closest to being a bioware game but not actually one" games i've ever played. I was of the opinion that it was a bit worse than games like the nwn series though, but i still liked it. If you really liked Drakensang, DA will, barring a very surprising disappointment, be a significant improvement.

[Squee]

"omg bad guys (and dragons!) are trying to destroy the world, what will u do mighty hero? (and dragons!)"
Your kingdom (and dragons!) awaits you, my lord. *HEAVING BOSOM*

[Lum]

I'm just kind of mellow and a little bit sad :( to see the only company (Bioware) that up till now had been the one good example of making and selling games without doing what the bulk of game dev. houses and publishing houses do: use sex, violence and hawt women to sell games.

I guess you forgot about the one model in NWN1 with modelled boob physics.

[Desslock]

Wow... You are the first person i've met that didn't see fallout3's poor main story as a direct improvement over oblivion's, which says a lot for the quality of oblivion's story as much as anything else.

As Enidigm indicated, Oblivion's story is actually great - while Fallout 3's is weak (and until the DLC didn't even really make sense). Fallout 3 has more scripted events though, so I guess if that's your thing, you might prefer the way its narrative is presented over Oblivion's, but otherwise Oblivion's is clearly superior.

If you just run around and mechanically grab items to speed through the plot without vesting yourself in Oblivion's world you're really missing out on a lot what fans of that game really appreciate -- for example, seeing the cult's "Paradise" reveal at the end of the storyline is just masterful storytelling, as it's so tied in with lore/previous events and belies expectations. That game is just brilliant (except for the level-scaling).

Enidigm - DA isn't any of the things you're worried about.

[Mordrak]

As Enidigm indicated, Oblivion's story is actually great - while Fallout 3's is weak (and until the DLC didn't even really make sense). Fallout 3 has more scripted events though, so I guess if that's your thing, you might prefer the way its narrative is presented over Oblivion's, but otherwise Oblivion's is clearly superior.


I think what people respond to is the way Fallout 3 tells its stories. Oblivion may have had a better overall story, main narrative, or plot, but Fallout 3 makes better overall use of the the mis-en-scene for lack of a better word (or at least my brain lacks this late at night) to tell its many mini stories through the wreckage of the wasteland.

There is some of that in Oblivion as well, the first dungeon you're likely to explore implies its story (and then leaves you note explaining it more explicitly). Finding all of the cult members as you quest, etc. Really though, there's less focus on some of those details in Oblivion, or they are lost in the glitter of its very full style of level design (everybody but those that live in near poverty seem to have many tapestries, cups, chests, etc). Whereas, in the wasteland of Fallout, pieces of civilization you come across stick out more, so you're more likely to pay attention to their arrangement.

[thinkingork]

As Enidigm indicated, Oblivion's story is actually great - while Fallout 3's is weak (and until the DLC didn't even really make sense). Fallout 3 has more scripted events though, so I guess if that's your thing, you might prefer the way its narrative is presented over Oblivion's, but otherwise Oblivion's is clearly superior.

If you just run around and mechanically grab items to speed through the plot without vesting yourself in Oblivion's world you're really missing out on a lot what fans of that game really appreciate -- for example, seeing the cult's "Paradise" reveal at the end of the storyline is just masterful storytelling, as it's so tied in with lore/previous events and belies expectations. That game is just brilliant (except for the level-scaling).

Enidigm - DA isn't any of the things you're worried about.

Are you talking about the Dark Brotherhood? If not, I would have to re-install the game again :O.

[Gordon_Bleu]

PC Gamer Dragon Age review: "RPG of the decade" (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=226091)

[malkav11]

Amazon's got release date delivery on this one now.

[Vesper]

Amazon's got release date delivery on this one now.
But they didn't apply it to the collectors edition. So people like me have a CE preorder scheduled for 11/5 (overnight shipping) and a release-date shipping regular edition on 11/3. I am torn which to cancel. If I wait too long I'm going to end up with 2 copies of the game.

[Bill Dungsroman]

PC Gamer Dragon Age review: "RPG of the decade" (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=226091)

PC Gamer UK, dude. Big difference (they're whores).

[malkav11]

But they didn't apply it to the collectors edition. So people like me have a CE preorder scheduled for 11/5 (overnight shipping) and a release-date shipping regular edition on 11/3. I am torn which to cancel. If I wait too long I'm going to end up with 2 copies of the game.

They didn't add the game credit to the CE, either,. I think they just don't want you to buy it.

[BigWeather]

So tempted to buy the CE for the PC -- already have the 360 version on order. But I'd like to mess with the toolset (and get a cloth map, wheee!!!!).

[Mysterio]

But they didn't apply it to the collectors edition.


They didn't add the game credit to the CE, either,. I think they just don't want you to buy it.

Yeah, those that purchased the CE get screwed twice: no $10 game credit and no Release-Date Delivery. Then again, why should Amazon offer them, since the CE's no longer available? Still, Amazon tends to be the exception to the rule, but not in this case. :-(

[BigWeather]

It isn't open world, is it? Is it more like BG with travel to various locales where you get an area to explore in detail? (Sorry, haven't read much about the game -- avoiding spoilers to preserve surprises as much as possible).

[mono]

PC Gamer UK, dude. Big difference (they're whores).


Since PC Gamer US & UK have been sharing articles & writers between their respective mags, I wouldn't be surprised if the UK review is Desslock's.

[Rock8man]

Since PC Gamer US & UK have been sharing articles & writers between their respective mags, I wouldn't be surprised if the UK review is Desslock's.

I thought the sharing had been mostly one way so far? (I stopped getting PC Gamer back in July, so I'm not sure). It seemed the U.S. version was getting a lot of UK version reviews, but sometimes they'd use U.S. exclusive reviews, which would be different from the version PCG UK would eventually put online from their magazine.

[mono]

Their publisher, Future, was doing all sorts of sharing of resources, ostensibly to cut costs.

[Sam Jones]

Since PC Gamer US & UK have been sharing articles & writers between their respective mags, I wouldn't be surprised if the UK review is Desslock's.

The UK review is RPS's John Walker, I think.