SWG - Jedi

[Gary Whitta]

Apologies if this is a n00b question that marks me out as teh suXor, but does anybody know how you advance toward being a Jedi?

[TomChick]

I haven't been following that very much, but it's a good question. Can any of our SWG authorities (i.e. Brian Rucker) tell us whether there's been any progress deciphering the Jedi mystery?

-Tom

[Veefy]

It would have to involve Midichlorians somehow wouldn't it? :)

[Pace]

I think it involves using "The Force" to inflate SOE and LA's respective bank accounts to a specified level.

HAHAHAH. It's funny coz they're greedy corporations, see?

Seriously though, folks: My coworker is a rabid SWG fan, and I'm convinced that his Wookie Dancer character will be the first Jedi. Never underestimate the power of the Mashed Potato.

[Jazar]

SOE hasn't divulged how to unlock the force sensitive character slot and said it would take months to achieve. I think it's not ready yet. :)

[TomChick]

Step-By-Step Instructions on How to Activate Your Jedi Slot

1) Get in your landspeeder... oh, wait, nevermind...

-Tom

[Case]

Apologies if this is a n00b question that marks me out as teh suXor, but does anybody know how you advance toward being a Jedi?

Nope. It's a deep, dark secret. You can only discover the true way of the Jedi by trial and error.

Also, if you should become a Jedi, and get killed, your character's death is permanent -- no respawn for you.

[Stroker Ace]

And since it's a single-character server, you have to keep paying $15/mo. for life, and you don't ever get to play again.

[BDGE]

All jedi must start their training by killing small scorpions.

Err..that is being killed by small scorpions.

[olaf]

No chance Jedis are in game and working at this point. This is SOE we are talking about.

I still cant wait to see how the permadeath thing pans out. People sure arent going to be happy about losing something forever that takes months to even access, let alone build up.

olaf

[extarbags]

Apologies if this is a n00b question that marks me out as teh suXor, but does anybody know how you advance toward being a Jedi?

Nope. It's a deep, dark secret. You can only discover the true way of the Jedi by trial and error.

Also, if you should become a Jedi, and get killed, your character's death is permanent -- no respawn for you.

Here's my theory: there's a bug that rarely deletes a character at random when they die. They left Jedis out of the game so that when your character doesn't respawn, they tell you it's because you were a Jedi all along, and didn't know it.

[Super_D]

Also, if you should become a Jedi, and get killed, your character's death is permanent -- no respawn for you.

With such a drastic penalty for death, would anyone who achieved Jedi status, wander the world solo? Heck no, I think you'll see people who play the game enough to achieve such status be the equivalent of EQ's guild leaders. The lowly unJedi in the guild are there to sacrifice themselves in dangerous situations so that the Jedi "leader" can escape death, so EQ guilds = SWG cults.

[Don Quixote]

From talk I heard a couple of months ago (the idea may have changed since then), when you got 'jedi' what would actually happen would be that you'd unlock a second character slot on that particular server. That character (the new one) would be the jedi/force sensitive/permadeath character, and your original would be left unchanged. Thing is, if you did die, you could always just start a new jedi character in the slot- the PC dies but you keep the slot for use.

This, my friends, is one hell of a carrot- it could potentially keep players playing for ever, and the price on eBay of those accounts would be astronomical. :shock:

[Rywill]

I agree that it seems very doubtful Jedi are actually in the game yet. SOE can hide for a long time behind their "It's secret and you just haven't figured it out" story. Also, my understanding is that DQ is right--you get a second jedi slot, which is perma-death, but your original character is still available. IIRC, the perma-death jedi slot is one-time only--e.g., it's not like if jedi #1 gets killed you can start over with 1st-level jedi #2. You just get one shot, one opportunity, to seize everything you ever wanted, in one moment. Will you capture it? Or just let it slip?

[Union Carbide]

Will you capture it? Or just let it slip?
Or will Shub-Internet devour your Jedi in a lag-storm of epic proportions?

[XPav]

You just get one shot, one opportunity, to seize everything you ever wanted, in one moment. Will you capture it? Or just let it slip?
You sound like you're channeling Sean Connery from Highlander 2: The Crapening.

[TomChick]

And there goes XPav's street cred...

-Tom

[Jason McMaster]

Eminem sounds a lot like Connery?

[Rywill]

But maybe now we can start the "That's the sound your mother made, Trebeck" stuff again. That shit was pretty funny.

[XPav]

Yeah, I know it was supposed to be Eminem but I've been looking for a way to insert Highlander 2 into the collective unconscious somewhere and I figured this was a good time.

(Ok, that whole collective unconscious thing was crap, but I did think Sean Connery first you know with the whole glowing thing on his hand when the fan was coming down and he made his little speech...)

[Robert Coffey]

For whatever it's worth, I know one guy in the game who claims he is a novice Jedi at this point.

But he may just be trying to impress me so I'll have sex with him. Or both so it's hard to say which is exactly sadder.

[Dave Markell]

Ask him to show you his lightsaber :wink:

[Robert Coffey]

Actually I have and he claims only to have a "vibro blade" or something like it. Then he licks me.

[Ben Sones]

Some people take "Fuck Star Wars" far too seriously.

[m0nty]

How quickly you forget (http://www.jeffjimmerson.com).

[bee cubed]

as soon as jedi get into the game, the most powerful guilds will powerlevel a jedi character for each of their members. no matter how difficult SOE says it is to get a jedi character, there will be hundreds of them running around shortly after the secret is discovered. of course, not is giant guild = suck it.

[Brian Rucker]

God help us if I'm an expert on SWG. I'm just a guy that likes it alot and doesn't know when to shut up.

That said, it's already been covered in this thread what's known. Something triggers a second Force Sensitive slot to open which is also subject to permadeath (I believe though you do get a three death grace period like any new character). It's supposedly hard to figure out what makes a Jedi and hard to maintain the status as well. By inference, since we know the Empire will hunt Jedi, they're probably flagged for PvP (at least by bounty hunters and Imperials). This means bragging rights are all but out for playing one. You show off and you're a marked man. What we don't know is if there are 'Jedi tricks' for concealing one's identity.

As for what triggers it everyone's got a different theory. Devs have said that anyone, casual or powergamer, has a chance to be a Jedi. Becoming a Jedi doesn't require roleplaying. Devs won't be handpicking Jedi.

My pet theory is that there are some NPC quests (from themeparks, POIs, or random quest giving NPCs) that score a character Force Sensitive slot points (secretly). I also suspect, in order to give non-hardcores a shot and to better select for players that will be able to do a good job with Jedi, that many behaviors or consequences of actions might delete Force Sensitive experience potential. Then again this doesn't completely account for past statements that everyone will have a different path to becoming a Jedi.

As this really isn't something I'm that interested in I haven't played close attention to the subject since before beta so there could be better theories out there.

[Tyjenks]

Let me get this straight and then I will leave Star Wars Galaxies alone forever. (Although, that $79.99 Collector's Ed. looks very tempting. :wink: )

The Jedi feature which is, arguably, for many the top of the heap in the Star Wars mythos is either active or incative and no one knows how to become one. True?

[Jazar]

True dat.

[mtkafka]

They should have made the Jedi a magic using advanced class... it still could be 1 in 1000 to be a master jedi, but at least have a chance for EVERYBODY to be a lowbie jedi type. So what if its not realistic... its friggin Star Wars!

etc

[Tyjenks]

They should have made the Jedi a magic using advanced class... it still could be 1 in 1000 to be a master jedi, but at least have a chance for EVERYBODY to be a lowbie jedi type. So what if its not realistic... its friggin Star Wars!

etc

Maybe that is exactly what they have done. We may never know.

[Gordon Berg]

But maybe now we can start the "That's the sound your mother made, Trebeck" stuff again. That shit was pretty funny.

"...and Charo twice!"

[mtkafka]

They should have made the Jedi a magic using advanced class... it still could be 1 in 1000 to be a master jedi, but at least have a chance for EVERYBODY to be a lowbie jedi type. So what if its not realistic... its friggin Star Wars!

etc

Maybe that is exactly what they have done. We may never know.

What I mean is a Jedi class should be open right from character creation. It could even be a class so weak that it offsets those who want to be uber. The only exception would be in being uber level Jedi's. To be that powerful would be very very rare, and in some cases would depend on how you act and play in the game. assholes could never be uber jedi's!

etc

[m0nty]

One thing I would like to know is if any proto-Jedi info is communicated to the client. If it is, you can bet that the 1337 haxx0rs will find out which particular little 1 or 0 is the key to unlocking that extra Jedi slot. I hope for Verant's sake that the Jedi mojo is all done at the server end.

[Union Carbide]

I hope for Verant's sake that the Jedi mojo is all done at the server end.

Considering that one of Raph's rules is "The client is in the hands of the enemy," I'd LIKE to think that's the case. :)

[Bub, Andrew]

What I mean is a Jedi class should be open right from character creation. It could even be a class so weak that it offsets those who want to be uber. The only exception would be in being uber level Jedi's. To be that powerful would be very very rare, and in some cases would depend on how you act and play in the game. assholes could never be uber jedi's!


Is this a new idea completely unique to Mount Kafka? If so, I think it's brilliant and what Verant should have done. Sure, you can be a Jedi from the beginning, but you've got a long, really hard, road to walk to get to power. You could be hunted from the start, as well, and death could be permanent. Make the Jedi available to any weenie who wants to be one, but make it enough of a challenge to ensure that only "talented" players survive to alter the game balance.

[Desslock]

Is this a new idea completely unique to Mount Kafka? If so, I think it's brilliant and what Verant should have done. Sure, you can be a Jedi from the beginning, but you've got a long, really hard, road to walk to get to power. You could be hunted from the start, as well, and death could be permanent. Make the Jedi available to any weenie who wants to be one, but make it enough of a challenge to ensure that only "talented" players survive to alter the game balance.

I don't think it would work. The established guilds would take turns developing a handful of jedi and shielding them from all harm, and once they were powerful enough, different members would do the same thing. Within a few weeks, you'd have nothing but hardcore players running around with Jedi, leaving the more casual players annoyed and frustrated.

SWG is already a game that heavily caters to hardcore players, notwithstanding the fact that the developers have indicated they were aiming to make it more accessible than other MMORPGs. It's the least accessible one yet, in my opinion, although the UI elements are well done (particularly the waypoint system, although it doesn't consistently work).

[DrCrypt]

If Star Wars: Galaxy is just randomly shooting the die on who becomes Jedi, will they be the first game ever to give their customers absolutely no incentive to actually play their game? I know that's not fair to Derek, who heroically crossed a non-existent racial line and pioneered that trend in 1993 and will probably someday be looked upon as the George Washington Carver of bravely rewardless video games, but if SWG jedi promotion is simply random and you can only have one account per server, why would anyone play at all? Games should reward people who put more time into it than others. The trick of good game design isn't to eliminate the reward, but to make aiming towards the ultimate goal as much fun (and here is where Tom Chick blows apart in a dusty simoom, like a long-dead, vacuumized corpse spontaneously exposed to oyxgen) as the reward itself eventually proves to be. If what people are speculating about is true, trying to become a jedi in Star Wars Galaxies sounds about as rewarding as playing a computer slot machine sim.

As for making jedis ridiculously weak to start, that doesn't tie in with the entire Star Wars mythos, where Luke Skywalker (a bratty farm boy who is barely even able to manipulate a lightsaber without jamming its plasma-ey pointy end directly into his own inanely gurgling thorax) is single-handedly able to take on about six million people in a space station that can detonate stars. You can't make a jedi more of a weakling than being a Calimarian stripper - no one is going to buy it.

[Bub, Andrew]

I don't think it would work. The established guilds would take turns developing a handful of jedi and shielding them from all harm, and once they were powerful enough, different members would do the same thing. Within a few weeks, you'd have nothing but hardcore players running around with Jedi, leaving the more casual players annoyed and frustrated.


Good point.
I underestimated the social side of things. Interestingly, isn't that what the Jedi Academy is? A place where weak newbies are sheltered and trained until they become "uber"?

[mtkafka]

Is this a new idea completely unique to Mount Kafka? If so, I think it's brilliant and what Verant should have done. Sure, you can be a Jedi from the beginning, but you've got a long, really hard, road to walk to get to power. You could be hunted from the start, as well, and death could be permanent. Make the Jedi available to any weenie who wants to be one, but make it enough of a challenge to ensure that only "talented" players survive to alter the game balance.

I don't think it would work. The established guilds would take turns developing a handful of jedi and shielding them from all harm, and once they were powerful enough, different members would do the same thing. Within a few weeks, you'd have nothing but hardcore players running around with Jedi, leaving the more casual players annoyed and frustrated.

SWG is already a game that heavily caters to hardcore players, notwithstanding the fact that the developers have indicated they were aiming to make it more accessible than other MMORPGs. It's the least accessible one yet, in my opinion, although the UI elements are well done (particularly the waypoint system, although it doesn't consistently work).

I don't think any mmrpg could stop the hardcore gamers from achieving uberness. I'm just saying Jedi's should be viable to everybody. You could have Jedi's at the highest levels that are almost impossible to gain (ie. its not scripted, its given out by GM's). I don't have a problem with GM's giving out uver powers to players, or maybe even having a voting system for players to get uber Jedi... haha politics in a MMRPG! The point is playing a Jedi is what the people want. Make it more like a magic skill, force push, pull, heal could be minor... uber force push (PUSH FOURTY PLAYERS A MILE AWAY!), uber sabre techniques... imo, the Jedi would be the focus of RvR type classes that have no need in solo but cater greatly to groups in rvr... sorta like casters in DaoC I guess...

etc

[Jason Becker]

" What I mean is a Jedi class should be open right from character creation. It could even be a class so weak that it offsets those who want to be uber."


Then you would have tons of people complaining that they are a Jedi but can't do anything and how lame it was. The whole Jedi thing is probably going to be a no win situation for them no matter how they do it.

[Matthew Gallant]

Quick, Sparky, do us up a picture of Raph with an albatross droid 'round the neck.

[mtkafka]

" What I mean is a Jedi class should be open right from character creation. It could even be a class so weak that it offsets those who want to be uber."


Then you would have tons of people complaining that they are a Jedi but can't do anything and how lame it was. The whole Jedi thing is probably going to be a no win situation for them no matter how they do it.

Well it would be better than having no Jedi skills at all (which is how it is now!). I just don't get how they can have people play this game without being some sort of a Jedi (basically a paladin/mage type class). I don't care if its unrealistic... its a game. I guess its just the vision of the game. But imo its wasted. I'm sure there are alot of newbie mmrpg players to this game who hate that they can't play a Jedi (unless they live breath SWG 24/7).

etc

[Chris Nahr]

I think the whole point of this rule is to make sure that there are some characters other than Jedi in the game world. How would you make an MMORPG work when everyone's a Jedi? And that's exactly what you'd get if you allowed people to choose class "Jedi" as soon as they create their characters.

[Andrew Mayer]

I think the whole point of this rule is to make sure that there are some characters other than Jedi in the game world. How would you make an MMORPG work when everyone's a Jedi? And that's exactly what you'd get if you allowed people to choose class "Jedi" as soon as they create their characters.

Well that's not a good solution. How about making the path something visible and obtainable, but not something all players may be interested in?

I wonder if the design team was terrified of creating an unbalanced class so they loaded it up with "lore" as a way to avoid having to deal with the fact that they haven't really dealt with it yet.

Your Power Pill (http://www.levelupdesign.com/gamelog)

[Mark Asher]

I think the whole point of this rule is to make sure that there are some characters other than Jedi in the game world. How would you make an MMORPG work when everyone's a Jedi? And that's exactly what you'd get if you allowed people to choose class "Jedi" as soon as they create their characters.

Well that's not a good solution. How about making the path something visible and obtainable, but not something all players may be interested in?

I wonder if the design team was terrified of creating an unbalanced class so they loaded it up with "lore" as a way to avoid having to deal with the fact that they haven't really dealt with it yet.

Your Power Pill (http://www.levelupdesign.com/gamelog)

I think they were worried about everyone playing a jedi and the resulting lack of diversity.

[Andrew Mayer]

I think they were worried about everyone playing a jedi and the resulting lack of diversity.

It's possible, but doubtful on every level. There are many far simpler ways of dealing with that problem then what they chose to do.
The important distinction is that I'm specifically talking about an in-game path to becoming a Jedi.

Opening it up as a class, even if it's a poor solution, doesn't automatically mean everyone would have become one. I can't imagine why anyone playing the game would want to be a dancer or a doctor. There still seem to be many people willing to try on those roles.

[Gary Whitta]

I can't imagine why anyone playing the game would want to be a dancer or a doctor. There still seem to be many people willing to try on those roles.

It's because they are lamerz!

There's one chick who appears to be dancing pretty much 24/7 at the Coronet City cantina on Corellia. I asked her why she would pay $15 a month to do this, and she replied "It's fun." I pressed her on why she believed this was so, and received no reply. I made my excuses and left to return to hacking at space bunnies on the outskirts of town.

[Brian Rucker]

If I asked the average guy why shooting things in an FPS was fun odds are I'd get a long silence too. When something is fun for the average Joe or Jane they don't look much further than that.

What I can tell you is that I know of two groups of serious entertainers, and there could be more I don't know of, on my server that are trying to organize shows and coordinate their acts. They're making the most of what they've got to work with and really seem to enjoy working the crowds most of all. I've seen scads of bad entertainers for every good one I've seen but a cantina with a house band, dancers and a lightshow that's orchestrated tends to draw a more colorful crowd of better tipping players - often roleplayers. The banter and the socializing is the thing and if you don't like that then you won't like playing an entertainer.

If folks really want to play Jedi they can always pick up Knights of The Old Republic when it comes out and hang with the other pre-teen lightsaber wielders with superhuman powers. That's all well and good but it's definitely not the experience I'm looking for.

[Case]

If folks really want to play Jedi they can always pick up Knights of The Old Republic when it comes out and hang with the other pre-teen lightsaber wielders with superhuman powers. That's all well and good but it's definitely not the experience I'm looking for.

Or all us old farts who saw the Star Wars when it was first shown in theaters.

[Mister Widget]

If folks really want to play Jedi they can always pick up Knights of The Old Republic when it comes out and hang with the other pre-teen lightsaber wielders with superhuman powers. That's all well and good but it's definitely not the experience I'm looking for.

Why all this contempt towards people who want to be a Jedi? I haven't been a pre-teen since the original "Star Wars", and I'd much rather play a game that lets me be a Jedi Knight (of any flavor or power level) than one where I'm a dancer or a shopkeeper. The real world is a far more realistic economic sim than any game will ever be, and I don't need to pay anyone to participate in it.

[Timemaster Tim]

...I'd much rather play a game that lets me be a Jedi Knight (of any flavor or power level) than one where I'm a dancer or a shopkeeper.

I'd like to be a cab driver. Let's get some vehicles in there so I can get a land speeder and play Crazy Taxi.

[Brian Rucker]

If folks really want to play Jedi they can always pick up Knights of The Old Republic when it comes out and hang with the other pre-teen lightsaber wielders with superhuman powers. That's all well and good but it's definitely not the experience I'm looking for.

Why all this contempt towards people who want to be a Jedi? I haven't been a pre-teen since the original "Star Wars", and I'd much rather play a game that lets me be a Jedi Knight (of any flavor or power level) than one where I'm a dancer or a shopkeeper. The real world is a far more realistic economic sim than any game will ever be, and I don't need to pay anyone to participate in it.

The most honest answer is that if SWG had Jedi as an elective class that's all we'd see. And the people most attracted to this class, for the power it possesses, would be the people least suited to playing them in a manner consistent with the setting. Droves of them. There's already plenty that screws around with immersion in SWG but, for me, this would be the final straw that turned a good roleplaying game into a bad cartoon.

[Jason McMaster]

I see myself cancelling soon. Very soon. The game is unbelievably boring and the Interface is something out of a nightmare. If I could be force sensitive, I would continue playing.

I'm not pre-teen and yet a Jedi character is the only real appeal of Star Wars Galaxies. So Brian, go drink a flagon of ail in the cantina for me, and tip the 45 year old fat man who's playing a female Rodian dancer. I'll go chill with the 12 year olds.

[Moore]

There are not all that many jedis in the movies either, and all but 'old' darth and 'old' obi are dork-asses.

I wish there were LESS jedi's ingame NOW. There are too many npc ones (dark jedi anyways)

[Slothrop]

I think an interesting and important question for Sony is to ask if there is some way to make Jedis contribute to all player's enjoyment of the game. Like, how could Jedis make the game more fun for non-Jedi characters? I think the more movie-like the Jedi characters seem, the more authentic they will feel, which will add to most people's enjoyment. But what kind of interactions could Jedis have with more common folk to add to the experience? The two I have heard of are Jedis being hunted by Empire characters and bounty hunters; is there anything else?

[Xaroc]

To me Star Wars is about light sabers, space flight, and the occassional blaster shootout. Give me an elite style game in the Star Wars universe with jedi combat like in JK2 and I would be ecstatic.

The other great idea someone had was planetside mixed with Star Wars. The idea of a dark vs. light jedi battle as AT-ATs and other Star Wars vehicles mix it up would be too good to imagine.

-- Xaroc

[mtkafka]

Verant made the mistake of making this games timeline after Episode IV. Would have been more playable as a game post Episode VI or like KotoR a thousand years before the first episode. Iiirc, in the SW universe there was a time when Jedi were as common as magic users in the Forgotten Realms (or at least they weren't rare, more like kind of uncommon)!

bah, who cares. the game doesn't have any magic system at all. which kind of sucks imo.

etc

[Chuck Jordan]

If folks really want to play Jedi they can always pick up Knights of The Old Republic when it comes out and hang with the other pre-teen lightsaber wielders with superhuman powers. That's all well and good but it's definitely not the experience I'm looking for.
Why all this contempt towards people who want to be a Jedi? I haven't been a pre-teen since the original "Star Wars", and I'd much rather play a game that lets me be a Jedi Knight (of any flavor or power level) than one where I'm a dancer or a shopkeeper. The real world is a far more realistic economic sim than any game will ever be, and I don't need to pay anyone to participate in it.
And there are far better Jedi Knight and space combat games than Star Wars Galaxies, which is a massively multiplayer game and is by definition more of a social experience than a single-player one. I'm not seeing contempt towards people who want to be a Jedi, but I'm seeing tons of contempt towards people who don't. If somebody thinks that becoming a dancer or a shopkeeper is "fun," who's to say that she's wrong?

And if somebody says, "If you want to be a Jedi, play KOTOR," or "If you want space combat, play X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter," that's not a "love it or leave it" smart-ass comeback, it's actually trying to be helpful. Galaxies is never going to be (as far as I can tell) as good at portraying lightsaber battles, or Force powers, or space combat, as a single-player or a small-group game. There are just too many complications that come from having thousands of people trying to play at once.

I'd say the game isn't for people who wanted to be Han Solo, it's for the people who wanted to be that guy who told Han Solo he couldn't take a tauntaun out because it would freeze to death. If you want to be a super-hero, get in the back of a very long line. But if you want to be Tauntaun Wrangler #5, this is the game for you.

When I first heard about it, I thought that the idea was absurd. But after playing for a while, I have to say there's something pretty engrossing about it. I don't even like Star Wars anymore, and I'd thought all of that fanboy stuff was behind me. But a couple nights ago I was running around on Tatooine doing some tedious task, went over a ridge, and saw a herd of Banthas wandering around below me. And it just reawakened my Star Wars fanboy gene that'd been lulled to sleep by the prequels and a never-ending series of rail-shooter games that always end with the trench run on the Death Star.

[Mark Asher]

I'd say the game isn't for people who wanted to be Han Solo, it's for the people who wanted to be that guy who told Han Solo he couldn't take a tauntaun out because it would freeze to death.

The problem is that this runs counter to most people's expectations. Why even use the Star Wars brand at all if the most entertaining part of the game is crafting? You wouldn't make a Lord of the Rings game and make growing and selling hobbit weed the most entertaining part of the game.

[Brian Rucker]

Well, it's a MMORPG with a rich setting. If you want to make Spice you can. If you want to use Spice you can (but I just discovered that tossing your cookies is coded in when you're coming down). You want to be a high trading merchant? Go for it? A brilliant designer? Sure. And if you want to get in firefights with stormtroopers or start a feud with a criminal cabal there's that as well.

If you want a particular experience it's up to you to seek it out. However no one particular element is going to be a big focus for newbie characters, the way I see it. Higher level games, like high stakes speculating or market manipulation or city/PA politics as well as company level PvP battles will work much better for the experienced guys and by pitting players against players in many different arenas you create more options and a more immersive environment.

SWG must get better over time - it ain't perfect and alot's been left out or needs tweaking - but in many cases I'd say a player who knows what he wants and sets out looking for it (not only in-game but by scouting out communities on the net) will have a much better time than somebody just wandering around alone and not instantly finding what he wants on his plate.

[Desslock]

I'd say the game isn't for people who wanted to be Han Solo, it's for the people who wanted to be that guy who told Han Solo he couldn't take a tauntaun out because it would freeze to death. ...my Star Wars fanboy gene that'd been lulled to sleep by the prequels and a never-ending series of rail-shooter games that always end with the trench run on the Death Star.

That's great stuff. Well said.

[Andrew Mayer]

in many cases I'd say a player who knows what he wants and sets out looking for it (not only in-game but by scouting out communities on the net) will have a much better time than somebody just wandering around alone and not instantly finding what he wants on his plate.

I haven't played the game. But from a design point of view that statement (along with a number of others in this thread) shows symptoms of a game that is very broken, and is going to have a very hard time catching on.

Basically Brian, and few other people who have made the investment of time, have described ways to convert that investment into what they paint as a positive experience. All problems are minimized because of the choices that the user can make to work around the broken system.

The fact that you're willing to "suck out the juice with a very long straw" shows me nothing so much as the power of a strong license to overcome the limitations of a design.

But I wonder, once the novelty wears off, will this be enough to keep a critical mass of players in the world?

Even if there are improvements and enhancements, the developers are now caught in a double bind. If they modify the system too much it will piss off the players who have cast themselves as the defenders of the game. These hardcore players will bitch and moan while the creators try to target the system at the mainstream audience that the game should rightfully be focused on, because it will invalidate their investment. If nothing else, the lack of interesting missions and content seems like a disaster for a title that is hoping to entertain a legion of fans who want something "like the movies". But if something isn't done the game will sink to a lower level as these non-gamers get their fill and move on to the next piece of hot Star Wars trivia.

What is obvious from what I'm reading here is that SWG is a minor evolution at best, a confusing mass of button pressing, grinding, and damage levels at worst.
Besides the license it seems to contain nothing that is exciting enough to tear away hardcore players from other worlds, or stop the casual player from migrating to the "next big thing" when it comes along.

Your Power Pill (http://www.levelupdesign.com/gamelog)

[quatoria]

I'd say the game isn't for people who wanted to be Han Solo, it's for the people who wanted to be that guy who told Han Solo he couldn't take a tauntaun out because it would freeze to death.

The problem is that this runs counter to most people's expectations. Why even use the Star Wars brand at all if the most entertaining part of the game is crafting? You wouldn't make a Lord of the Rings game and make growing and selling hobbit weed the most entertaining part of the game.

Unless you were Verant, of course.

[solomani]

I think alot of you guys who are promoting "Jedi at character creation" miss one very important point - its upto George not the DEVS on how to implement them. Know what he said? Jedis have to be rare.

So I think you should cut the SWG devs some slack and whine about George's "Vision" TM.

[Mark Asher]

I think alot of you guys who are promoting "Jedi at character creation" miss one very important point - its upto George not the DEVS on how to implement them. Know what he said? Jedis have to be rare.

So I think you should cut the SWG devs some slack and whine about George's "Vision" TM.

Is that true? Heh -- we've bitched on these boards about George's vision in the movies. It should be easy enough to bitch about him regarding games.

[mtkafka]

I think alot of you guys who are promoting "Jedi at character creation" miss one very important point - its upto George not the DEVS on how to implement them. Know what he said? Jedis have to be rare.

So I think you should cut the SWG devs some slack and whine about George's "Vision" TM.

Is this true? Do you have a link? Wouldn't be surprised if it was though. (George Lucas having a few JEdi accounts himself prolly!)

And again, whats the big effin deal having a lot of Jedi's in SWG?!? Like I've been saying, its boring having no magic at all. Couldn't they have INVENTED something close to Jedi, but not Jedi?

etc

[Mark Asher]

I think alot of you guys who are promoting "Jedi at character creation" miss one very important point - its upto George not the DEVS on how to implement them. Know what he said? Jedis have to be rare.

So I think you should cut the SWG devs some slack and whine about George's "Vision" TM.

Is this true? Do you have a link? Wouldn't be surprised if it was though. (George Lucas having a few JEdi accounts himself prolly!)

And again, whats the big effin deal having a lot of Jedi's in SWG?!? Like I've been saying, its boring having no magic at all. Couldn't they have INVENTED something close to Jedi, but not Jedi?

etc

Yeah, and the thing is, the players should be the heroes in the game. So if you see a player who's a jedi or dark jedi (or some other flavor of jedi invented for the game) it wouldn't be jarring.

[Sharpe]

Yeah, and the thing is, the players should be the heroes in the game. So if you see a player who's a jedi or dark jedi (or some other flavor of jedi invented for the game) it wouldn't be jarring.

This was also a problem in Raph's previous design, UO. He seems to have the idea that the playerbase forms the entire population of the fantasy world. Instead I would prefer a game where the player base represents an elite class of heroes/adventurers/what-have-you and the majority of the population doing mundane jobs is abstractly represented by representative NPCs and stores and such. In most games, the focus is on the hero and the computer abstactly handles supply, support, repair, logistics etc. In a Raph design, the *players* do the mundane tasks of production, distribution and logistical support.

It's exactly like the quote above - in this game you are not Han Solo, you are the guy who warns him about taking a Tauntaun out into the cold.

I for one prefer games where I get to be the hero - thats a key aspect of the gaming experience. And I'm not concerned if everyone else I see is a Hero too - I am willing to buy into a universe where the mundane stuff happens off-screen behind the scenes -- I don't need to know how my sausage gets made in a game. I am comfortable seeing many Jedi prowling the streets, (as long as there are other viable class choices) because I can suspend my disbelief and imagine that the players I see are just the elite adventuring bad-asses of the SW universe - all the shopkeepers, mechanics, and shipping clerks are behind the curtain. Unfortunately Raph seems to have this idea that "Shipping Clerk Sim" is a great and meaningful form of entertainment. (Hell if I want that, I'm sure theres a 19.99 title at Walmart - Stockboy Tycoon or somesuch :) ).

Bottom line is, KotOR has all the heroic elements that I am looking for, plus based on the early reviews it has the true Star Wars "flavor". So while SWG is a UO-esque rats-in-a-box mess with a "player driven economy" (hey I work in one 60 hours a week, do I need to play in one too?) , KotOR is looking damn good and like it will be THE Star Wars game. I am going to watch the reviews on KotOR carefully. This may be the game that tips me into buying an X-Box. Meanwhile SWG is a no-buy for me.

Dan

[solomani]

I think alot of you guys who are promoting "Jedi at character creation" miss one very important point - its upto George not the DEVS on how to implement them. Know what he said? Jedis have to be rare.

So I think you should cut the SWG devs some slack and whine about George's "Vision" TM.

Is that true? Heh -- we've bitched on these boards about George's vision in the movies. It should be easy enough to bitch about him regarding games.

I was in beta (didnt buy the game, not an SWG fan) and in one of Raphs later "monthly updates" (Holobytes?) he mentions that one of the first questions that Lucasarts asked was "How will you prevent every Tom, Dick and Harry from being a Jedi?" They agreed on the system that the SWG Dev team created.

[solomani]

This was also a problem in Raph's previous design, UO. He seems to have the idea that the playerbase forms the entire population of the fantasy world.


Where did this idea of playing mundane classes come from? Was it UO? Never seen a single player game where you spend your day crafting...

Do people actually get enjoyment out of crafting? Or is it the $$$ at the end of the day that is motivating people, but the crafting itself is boring for everyone?

[Desslock]

Do people actually get enjoyment out of crafting? Or is it the $$$ at the end of the day that is motivating people, but the crafting itself is boring for everyone?

I can't imagine anything more boring than crafting in a game like Dark Age of Camelot or EverQuest -- but I really like the crafting in Ultima Online and SWG. The difference is the latter two games try to create an interesting virtual world, and allow you to be involved in all aspects of it -- you can personalize your experience, and role-play a variety of characters (not just by "playing a baker" -- but by just being able to collect and use a extensive variety of items, create and decorate a home, etc.)

In games like EQ and Camelot -- crafting just feels like another annoying time sink, which is actually incongruent with the rest of the abstractions adopted by the game.

The "sandbox" virtual world of SWG and UO isn't going to appeal to gamers who want to blow up the Deathstar or have lightsaber duels with every character you meet, but there are tons of Star Wars games that already allow you to do those "heroic" things (5 space sims, 3 major FPS, epic 'strategy' games, KotOR RPG). SWG provides something different -- the opportunity to roleplay and just live/explore virtual worlds based upon the Star Wars setting. The experience it provides won't appeal to everyone, and definitely has a lot to work out even for gamers who like that style fo design, but it's definitely trying to provide an experience unlike any other Star Wars game -- and unlike any other RPG except UO.

[Tyjenks]

The "sandbox" virtual world of SWG and UO isn't going to appeal to gamers who want to blow up the Deathstar or have lightsaber duels with every character you meet, but there are tons of Star Wars games that already allow you to do those "heroic" things (5 space sims, 3 major FPS, epic 'strategy' games, KotOR RPG). SWG provides something different -- the opportunity to roleplay and just live/explore virtual worlds based upon the Star Wars setting. The experience it provides won't appeal to everyone, and definitely has a lot to work out even for gamers who like that style fo design, but it's definitely trying to provide an experience unlike any other Star Wars game -- and unlike any other RPG except UO.

Now that sounds like what I want. And, as I understood it, was what was promised prior to release. A world even a single player can immerse himself in and participate in and contribute to. From what I have read, however, it is simply not working as advertised. How long until the bugs get squished and it becomes what you described?

[Bub, Andrew]

I'm sorry, I haven't been following all these threads. I played SWG during the beta and found it awful and tedious. I also haven't read much good news about it... but if Desslock is liking it, I'm curious. Care to elaborate Stefan? Or, can you point me to a thread where you already did?

[Mark Asher]

But is the process of crafting interesting? I mean the actual way in which you make something? Or is that part of it simple and quick? What I hated about DAoC crafting was the time that passed while waiting for an item to be created. The better you got at crafting, the longer it took.

It's just when I hear about things like being a dancer, where you have to dance over and over to get better, that non-combat roles seem uninteresting.

[Desslock]

I'm sorry, I haven't been following all these threads. I played SWG during the beta and found it awful and tedious. I also haven't read much good news about it... but if Desslock is liking it, I'm curious. Care to elaborate Stefan? Or, can you point me to a thread where you already did?

I'm actually writing a review of the game right now (today), so I think I'll hold off summarizing my views at least until I've sorted through them myself. But if you read Brian Rucker's posts - I agree with most of what he's said, although he's more forgiving of the game's flaws, and extrapolates too much entertainment out of some mundane activities.

But is the process of crafting interesting? I mean the actual way in which you make something? Or is that part of it simple and quick? What I hated about DAoC crafting was the time that passed while waiting for an item to be created. The better you got at crafting, the longer it took.

It's interesting because there's a variety of different activities to do (survey, sample, harvest, collect, use crafting machines, build your own crafting devices) and the enormous variety of things you can create.

But there are needless time sinks -- objects do take longer to create the better you are and accordingly the more complicated they become (and not just because you have to craft different components -- there's actually a ridiculous "timer" that just takes longer to count down before the product will be pumped out). The developers also keep inserting additional time sinks -- last week they added a 20 second delay (up from less then half that) between resource "digging" turns. I hate crap like that, which just artificially extends gameplay in order to prevent the hardcore from advancing too quickly (which hasn't worked, in any event, since most regulars already seem to have reached the "Elite" professions, only 3 weeks after the game's release -- they've just made the journey there more tedious).

I could go on and on criticizing aspects of the game, and it's difficult in writing my review to resist the temptation to at least "identify" every flaw, so that people can't say I didn't notice an aspect of the game that pissed them off. But doing so would inappropriately colour the review, since there's also a lot of things I like about the game. In a one sentence summary -- it's designed to provide a "virtual world" experience that's very similar to Ultima Online's, and it's already a better game than UO (which certainly has its share of fans, in spite of the fact that many gamers hate it).

[Bub, Andrew]

I'm actually writing a review of the game right now (today), so I think I'll hold off summarizing my views at least until I've sorted through them myself.

That's fine. Please link it when it goes up (if online).

[Tyjenks]

We don't need no stinkin' review from Desslock when we have Game Industry News which gave it a 5 out of 5 (http://www.gameindustry.com/reviews/030714swgalaxies.asp).

Is the game worth $15 a month? I would say that for me it would be. Because casual players can feel just as at home with the game, probably only as non-combat characters though, I think many people would probably answer the same way. Though there are a couple of areas that need improved, the game earns a 5 GiN Gem rating. For Star Wars fans it is a must-have no-brainer. Others will still find an enjoyable world with a lot of choices and a fair amount of role-playing.

This review does not point out a single problem other than to mention the lack of Jedis and that there are a few kinks which will soon be ironed out. I found this review from a Gamerankings link. The aggregate Gameranking score is one level above worthless. I give Gamerankings.com a 1 out of 5.

[Desslock]

For whatever it's worth, I know one guy in the game who claims he is a novice Jedi at this point.

But he may just be trying to impress me so I'll have sex with him. Or both so it's hard to say which is exactly sadder.

Rich Vogel, in his "one month update" presentation, indicated that no one has yet opened up a Jedi slot. So hopefully there was no putting out with your pal.

[Robert Coffey]

For whatever it's worth, I know one guy in the game who claims he is a novice Jedi at this point.

But he may just be trying to impress me so I'll have sex with him. Or both so it's hard to say which is exactly sadder.

Rich Vogel, in his "one month update" presentation, indicated that no one has yet opened up a Jedi slot. So hopefully there was no putting out with your pal.

On the one hand, there is no /bone emote so I am still technically a virgin. On the other hand, he did /lick me an awful lot. On the freakishly mutant third hand, he gave me 5000 credits to let him so I guess I don't mind.

[Brian Rucker]

But is the process of crafting interesting? I mean the actual way in which you make something? Or is that part of it simple and quick? What I hated about DAoC crafting was the time that passed while waiting for an item to be created. The better you got at crafting, the longer it took.

It's just when I hear about things like being a dancer, where you have to dance over and over to get better, that non-combat roles seem uninteresting.

I can only speak for myself but I personally don't like crafting incredibly much. That said, I didn't set out to make it a goal for my character. I know many folks that play crafting characters and they're pretty happy with things. Sure, making very complex items one at a time is a long and arduous process. So buy a factory, make one or two items very well, and let the process automate. Use your profits to buy other things you need. I know folks making good money with cheap but complex blasters or high quality stimpaks. I've also seen 'brand name' clothing and food items that I suspect are factory produced as well.

The whole business cycle is much more than gathering resources and crafting items. You can try to form a one man production chain but you're limited by how many lots you can have (used for harvesters, factories and houses - possibly factional structures as well but I'm not sure). Many folks that are independant operators carve out unique niches like specializing in resource gathering of a particular quality and type and selling it on bazaars or to artisans, others are speculators buying finished goods in big lots as cheaply as possible and reselling at bazaars or more isolated settlements. The PA I belong to, The CTC, is all about making personal contacts with producers and merchants and offering to do all the transporting between individuals (in bulk and bypassing the bazaar) for a fee. We're working on developing our own merchant outlets so we can just gather and distribute resources and product without reselling through third parties. (The guys running this have actually put together a simple but thoughtful and comprehensive business plan - and this is fun for them. Maybe I don't get it but it's fun to be a part of a well run group populated by good roleplayers).

My character does some crafting to save money. Early on in the game he gathered a massive amount of resources (some of which he sold on the Bazaar in bigger crafter markets at quite a profit). Now with the resource shift he's taken his harvesters down and is focusing on helping VR (Vagabond's Rest - a player city) establish itself. With his profits he's very well outfitted and can fund his home and pay PA dues for some time to come. He's also got a good stockpile of raw material and enough skill to make some useful basic items for, effectively, free. No grinding, just experimenting up some nice prototypes (stimpaks and weapon powerups mainly) and sticking them in his gear or medical kits.

Other local artisans in his player community provide anything he needs at reasonable costs. When he needs to replace a weapon or get something unusual he'll trek out to a city and shop the galactic bazaar or simply ask around with certain PA friends who are starting to catalogue all the shops and merchants of note in the galaxy as a project.

I'm having a remarkably good time and most folks I know feel the same way. That said there are mortifying problems with server stability and occasional lagginess and we're very anxious about getting vehicles, mounts and player cities as soon as possible.

[Desslock]

I know folks making good money with cheap but complex blasters or high quality stimpaks. I've also seen 'brand name' clothing and food items that I suspect are factory produced as well.

Out of curiosity, what's considered "good money" these days? What kind of warchests do people have?

I really like the economic aspects of the game, but after initially having incredible zeal for crafting, I'm finding it tiresome as an Elite class. Maybe that's because I'm primarily making money off of resources (about 40K/day), so I'm not getting experience points for having people use my stuff. I'm getting rich though, although I'm not sure what value money has in the game, since I haven't purchased a thing in the game yet, and have only used money to maintain my harvester fleet.

But I really like the developing economy -- there are some big players, but I've made some good contacts with artisans and have sold some huge bulk orders, and gotten some good references. I've also engaged in every type of market manipulation imaginable, which is pretty easy given the lack of controls (buying all the competing products, and raising the rates on stuff I sell to the maximum) -- once you get some mony in your pocket it's easy to do that stuff.

Brian - is there any regular timing to the resource shifts? It seems like there's wholesale changes around once a week, although often individual resources shift, or are swapped out, more rapidly than that.

SWG is the only MMORPG to date to hold my interest for more than a month.

[TheWombat]

My two main problems with SWG are one, it has IMO an un-Godly complicated, confusing, awkward, and abysmal interface, and two, it's boring. It is a compilation of many, many often excellent systems that simply do not IMO mesh into an enjoyable game. Yes, there are other SW games that handle space combat, lightsaber fighting, big battles, and saving the galaxy, but folks, to me and many other casual SW fans, that IS Star Wars. Not hanging around a cantina watching bargain-basement hootchies shakin' what their Twi'lek mamas gave them, or wasting time in the public health clinic getting cured of the clap or whatever. Not wandering across endless expanses of sometimes atmospheric but usually featureless terrain, accosted by the occasional MOB who has no real reason to be there, but whom often appears floating above the folds of the ground like its filled with helium. Not running FedEx errands for anonymous weirdos for chump change.

Yeah, those are the same things all MMORPGs saddle you with. And SWG has some things that are really well done. The look, some of the game systems like the way experience and advancement is handled, the sheer variety of stuff to make. But I guess this is the reason I don't play EQ or DAOC either--I find the "go outside, kill womp rat, heal, repeat" or "go find belly lint, craft lint scoop, repeat" cycle about as fun as anal surgery.

I can easily see how SWG can be engrossing though. There is a lot of stuff, it's just not in my opinion integrated very well, and there's too much of it. It's as if they didn't know when to lay off (even though they managed not to put in what I think are the most vital parts, vehicles and space flight, but oh well). And it looks good, particularly on a high end machine, and the combat system, for an MMO, is pretty spiffy I must say--crouch and shoot a rifle at long range, stand up and switch to melee weapon or hand to hand up close, get different types of EXP and all that is a good system. But it simply does not gell for me, and feels like work, not play.

[Case]

Where did this idea of playing mundane classes come from? Was it UO? Never seen a single player game where you spend your day crafting...

Do people actually get enjoyment out of crafting? Or is it the $$$ at the end of the day that is motivating people, but the crafting itself is boring for everyone?

Magic Candle.

[Brian Rucker]

Quick reply about the 'Joy Of Crafting' at least as it applies to my experience in SWG. What I think motivates roleplayers that are into crafting is the sense of identity and a schtick to roleplay around. We recently had a high profile 'war' of tailors riddled with insults and roleplayed snubs and price cutting and so-on. Other folks just want to be known in their circle for contributing something unique. Sure there could be dozens of other chefs on the server but you're the chef for this particular city or PA. Everyone likes to feel useful but not everyone finds running around and blasting stuff more engrossing than experimenting with dyes and patterns, discovering an untapped vein of high value steel, or developing the best chitin armor on the planet. I personally go more for the blasting stuff but I really value having a mix of people around with different tastes to flesh out my community.

I know folks making good money with cheap but complex blasters or high quality stimpaks. I've also seen 'brand name' clothing and food items that I suspect are factory produced as well.

Out of curiosity, what's considered "good money" these days? What kind of warchests do people have?

I think that varies. Most folks in VR aren't psychotically rich or well equipped. Mostly older players with limited time to play. That said, harvesters and automated facilities gives us part-timers a good chance at competing economically. The sense of vastness and seperation between cities (especially remote VR) takes off alot of the teen-adrenaline powergamer edge that infests most MMORPGs. Good money for Mandash varies. If he takes too much time off from his harvesters (not cycling resources into the market for cash and converting some cash into energy) he can end up scraping around at missions for extra cash to move between worlds. Other times he's Daddy Warbucks, tipping well and offering donations to various VR causes (recently he paid our local head musician Tamboran, leads a group of ten or so musicians and dancers for formal pieces, about 20,000 credits without blinking to help the man build the town theatre).

Right now his harvesters are down and he's not spending much money at all. In fact, he's got enough resources he'll be able to cruise for a while so he can focus on roleplaying events around Starsider and landclearing in VR.

I really like the economic aspects of the game, but after initially having incredible zeal for crafting, I'm finding it tiresome as an Elite class. Maybe that's because I'm primarily making money off of resources (about 40K/day), so I'm not getting experience points for having people use my stuff. I'm getting rich though, although I'm not sure what value money has in the game, since I haven't purchased a thing in the game yet, and have only used money to maintain my harvester fleet.

Well you buy what you like. If you never need anything you're a lucky man. Me, I'm a roleplayer so in addition to buying practical things I'm also investing in things that will promote roleplaying opportunities for myself. I've donated thousands of credits to the city, my PA, spend a lot travelling around to visit other roleplaying communities as well as for business, bought a few good weapons and a bit of armor, paying for my house and harvesters, buy gifts frequently for less well-off characters, and spend yet more on local insurance or cloning fees sometimes. I've also customed out a pretty nice 'look' for my character which took a little bit of time, luck and networking as well as credits.

But I really like the developing economy -- there are some big players, but I've made some good contacts with artisans and have sold some huge bulk orders, and gotten some good references. I've also engaged in every type of market manipulation imaginable, which is pretty easy given the lack of controls (buying all the competing products, and raising the rates on stuff I sell to the maximum) -- once you get some mony in your pocket it's easy to do that stuff.

Brian - is there any regular timing to the resource shifts? It seems like there's wholesale changes around once a week, although often individual resources shift, or are swapped out, more rapidly than that.

SWG is the only MMORPG to date to hold my interest for more than a month.

Resource shifts seem to be in a state of flux themselves. One server seemed to be getting them daily and causing all kinds of panty bunching over there. Starsider hadn't seen a single shift before yesterday (or the day before). It's some compensation for the heinous time we've had with it being down or buggy.

Maybe someone more knowledgable can chime in (Raph) and explain how resource shifts are supposed to work.

[Case]

We recently had a high profile 'war' of tailors riddled with insults and roleplayed snubs and price cutting and so-on. Other folks just want to be known in their circle for contributing something unique. Sure there could be dozens of other chefs on the server but you're the chef for this particular city or PA.

This is right up there with Virtual Airlines...

:D

[Supertanker]

This is right up there with Virtual Airlines...
:D

All I can think is, "I already have a job."

[Jason Becker]

This is right up there with Virtual Airlines...
:D

All I can think is, "I already have a job."

What I feel is the downfall for all MMORPGS in the state they exist as now. It just ends up feeling like a chore to do anything, and to get anywhere.

[Casper]

I'm sorry...is someone dissing the Vatsim community (http://vatsim.net)?? I can't accept that as a proud member of said community and greatly enjoy being ATC at ZLA (http://laartcc.org).

This is not a joke.

brian

[quatoria]

This is not a joke.

Yes, yes it is.

[olaf]

For whatever it's worth, I know one guy in the game who claims he is a novice Jedi at this point.

But he may just be trying to impress me so I'll have sex with him. Or both so it's hard to say which is exactly sadder.

Rich Vogel, in his "one month update" presentation, indicated that no one has yet opened up a Jedi slot. So hopefully there was no putting out with your pal.

LOL what a farce. No one has opened it up because its impossible right now. As in, there is no way its in the game. I guaranfuckingtee that the first jedi slot opened up will be mysteriously after a patch.

olaf

[mudpuppy]

I guaranfuckingtee that the first jedi slot opened up will be mysteriously after a patch.

Well...yeah. Everything that happens from here on out will have happened after a patch.

[Desslock]

I think that varies. Most folks in VR aren't psychotically rich or well equipped.

Still, in terms of "cash on hand", I'm curious as to what that is -- whether I should continue to hoard money (probably not). Despite the fact that it's a massively multiplayer game, I generally have no interest/knowledge in what other players are doing, but the possible independence is one of the things I most like about the game.

If you never need anything you're a lucky man. Me, I'm a roleplayer so in addition to buying practical things I'm also investing in things that will promote roleplaying opportunities for myself. I've donated thousands of credits to the city, my PA, spend a lot travelling around to visit other roleplaying communities as well as for business, bought a few good weapons and a bit of armor, paying for my house and harvesters, buy gifts frequently for less well-off characters, and spend yet more on local insurance or cloning fees sometimes.

I've never used money for insurance/cloning (after about 70+ hours in the game, I just had my 3rd, "protected" death). I've maxed out my artisan and scout skills, so I make my own harvesters and weapons, and give those as gifts/make money to newbies. I have decent med skills as well, so don't need to tip docs, and tend to figure I'm even with entertainers since I constantly heal them while they're dancing/playing. Know nothing about PAs, and haven't seen any organizaed player cities. I could buy better weapons than the CDEFs I can make, but I'm actually not sure they're much better, because of the high speed factor ratings -- my CDEFs do 35-65 damage, with around a 3.1 speed rating. Is that really much worse than a weapon that does 105-160 but has a weapon speed of 7-9? In any event, I just like my own stuff, so I haven't found anything to spend money on, other than harvester fees.

Bah - bottom line, I really like this game. Here's another reason why: I have a largely independent scout, who gets XP for hunting creatures (by sneaking up on them, and by harvesting their bones/hide/meat, which I can also use to craft traps/camps) -- I like hunting giant (dinosaur-sized), dangerous creatures on my own -- what other game allows me to do that? Especially when you can't rely upon the old save/reload strategy of single player games (much as I loved the Baldur's Gate games, BG2 suffered from almost forcing you into that style of gameplay -- bring on Greyhawk's hardcore mode, baby) -- every battle is tense.

For those of you who think MMORPG combat is just number-crunching, because it doesn't feature twitch-based aiming; or that SWG features less interesting combat because there ain't spells -- I strongly disagree. Here's an example of the type of combat tactics I consider -- masking my scent, so I can sneak into trapping range of enemies (around 45 metres, as opposed to the 64 meters you can start firing at); taking cover for oppoents that have ranged attacks -- generally I first start throwing traps that will snare opponents. I'll keep throwing until one is successful. If I happen to attrack some additional mobs, I'll use "warning shots" to scare them off, or try to snare them as well.

Then I'll throw a few traps that damage the mind pool of the creatures (and there are a few devastating ones), and remain crouched and try to finish off the creature with constant head shots. If the creature becomes unsnared, I'll try to retrap it, but I'll also start running when it gets within 35 meters or so -- usually I'll try to set up my attack so that there are hills (or higher features) behind me, since I can usually gain a lot of ground even against faster opponents by running up hills, since I'm a scout -- continuing to use head shots as I retreat. If really threatened, I'll use my burst running, which will generally allow me to outrun almost anything, except really large creatures (or fast cats) -- but with hills/traps, I can virtually always get away (like I said, I virtually never die -- all 3 times I've died, it's because I've been relying upon other players). I have hotkeyed stim packs (which I can craft myself) that I can use to heal myself on the fly as well.

It's a great feeling to bring down a giant beast through a combination of those strategies -- creatures that con 'white' (my level) are cannon fodder if you plan your attack - I can easily take down 3-4 at once. I've never died to a yellow con (one above) either, although I've had to run away occasionally. I always have to run from reds (highest con), but I've managed to take a couple down in epic confrontations.

Will Verant/Sony nerf my character - combination rifleman/scout so that he is forced to hunt puny blue 'con' creatures in order to avoid frequently dying? Maybe - and that'll be the day I never play the game again. I hate "rebalancing" in these games -- it's what drove me from Dark Age of Camelot (uh, Archers), and it's what'll drive me from this game as well if it's done. I really don't understand the justification for it -- sure, a skilled marksman will do better in combat than a skilled tailor -- uh, but who cares, as long as players aren't forced to be any particular type of character? As long as players have the option to be whatever they want, who cares which characters dominate in even PvP combat?

If you want to spruce a character up to give 'em more interesting things to do - great - but emasculating them is so bloody annoying, especially when it have the effect of just drastically increasing the level grind and time sinks -- aspects of MMORPG that are ridiculous. But as of right now, I'm really enjoying SWG -- far more than any other MMORPG to date.

Stefan

[Brian Rucker]

I think that varies. Most folks in VR aren't psychotically rich or well equipped.

Still, in terms of "cash on hand", I'm curious as to what that is -- whether I should continue to hoard money (probably not). Despite the fact that it's a massively multiplayer game, I generally have no interest/knowledge in what other players are doing, but the possible independence is one of the things I most like about the game.

If you never need anything you're a lucky man. Me, I'm a roleplayer so in addition to buying practical things I'm also investing in things that will promote roleplaying opportunities for myself. I've donated thousands of credits to the city, my PA, spend a lot travelling around to visit other roleplaying communities as well as for business, bought a few good weapons and a bit of armor, paying for my house and harvesters, buy gifts frequently for less well-off characters, and spend yet more on local insurance or cloning fees sometimes.

I've never used money for insurance/cloning (after about 70+ hours in the game, I just had my 3rd, "protected" death). I've maxed out my artisan and scout skills, so I make my own harvesters and weapons, and give those as gifts/make money to newbies. I have decent med skills as well, so don't need to tip docs, and tend to figure I'm even with entertainers since I constantly heal them while they're dancing/playing. Know nothing about PAs, and haven't seen any organizaed player cities. I could buy better weapons than the CDEFs I can make, but I'm actually not sure they're much better, because of the high speed factor ratings -- my CDEFs do 35-65 damage, with around a 3.1 speed rating. Is that really much worse than a weapon that does 105-160 but has a weapon speed of 7-9? In any event, I just like my own stuff, so I haven't found anything to spend money on, other than harvester fees.

Well, you can get addons and find slicers or better weaponcrafters all of which can improve a weapon's speed or damage. I'm starting to find the best weapons aren't on the bazaars - that's where leftovers end up. The good stuff tends to be in shops now as merchants are building clientelles. If you're not obsessive about customizing, optimizing or socializing it's quite possible to get around with very little cash. You can find something you like to do and just do it. Scouting is one angle. PvP is another. Crafting and so on. There are dozens of 'minigames' if you want to look at it that way and not all of them involve all the trappings of the other aspects. My big thing is networking and socializing, roleplaying, along with PvE combat. (I may get into PvP later when my character is tougher or if the new PvP rules force my hand for economic reasons). All of these things require credits for my style of play. Being able to afford to be the guy who gets the small town medic that killer Probot with the surgical module and a crafting station is a nice role for me. Tipping the band leader 5000 credits on a lark gets you noticed.

Roleplayers, at least most of the ones I'm around, tend to be social critters and that cuts into the powergaming time for them. Many are also older and don't have as much time to be on. They tend to need things more than other folks do. I may not be a powergamer but I'm on more than the average guy and, to my own surprise, have figured out fairly good ways to make money and do business.

I read Tom's editorial about SWG in the latest CGM. And I found myself nodding and laughing as usual. Trevor as a Bothan. Of course. And I can see his take on the frustrations of crafting and the seemingly menial things, as well as the bugs, that're in the game. That said, if you don't like something in SWG there's always something else to try. Nobody's making anybody craft. Try hunting with Desslock. Come to some parties, fairs, weddings or roleplayed adventures with me. Go find a PvP clan and let them twink you up for PvP. (The Guardians and TIO are both active PvP and roleplaying PAs on Starsider).

Anything can look pretty ridiculous if you squint at it long enough and alot of the shots taken at SWG are fair, to an extent, if slanted from particular angles. But I know I'm having fun. The people around me are having fun. So maybe the problem isn't the game at all but certain styles of gaming?

[Xemu]

I have about 600k saved up right now.

I don't have any idea what to spend it on, so I'm just sort of treating it as a high score.

I've found running a decent number of harvesters I can make 40-50k a day selling resources. And that's with a house taking up 2 lots, and energy production taking up another 2-3.

Ironically, I've got enough experience for any of the advanced artisan-style professions, but haven't been bothered to track down the advanced trainers yet. I'm just having a lot of fun checking in once every day or two on my harvesters and sales. Soon I imagine I'll set up a shop, though the bazaar is almost TOO good -- it's difficult for a shop to compete, I think.

[Desslock]

Soon I imagine I'll set up a shop, though the bazaar is almost TOO good -- it's difficult for a shop to compete, I think.

The only problem is the price cap -- $3,000 per item. That's cool when selling resources, but less interesting when selling complex weapons, etc. But like you said, other I'm not sure what the incentive is to do so, when the money is sweet on simple things like resources right now.

[MattKeil]

Giving this game a third chance to grab me, because I'm an incurable Star Wars whore.

Started up a Wookiee marksman on Starsider, and have been running around Theed most of the day learning how to use a pistol effectively. Picked up a decent enhanced damage model off the Bazaar, so that in combination with Body Shot 1 has made combat in the field noticeably easier.

I'm not really into the RP thing, but I joined Starsider on a hunch that turned out to be correct. The RPers are far more friendly and willing to help out on the whole. The experience has been much more positive than it has been in the past merely because people in town have something to say that isn't just "ne1 teech eng 3?!?!" over and over.

I'm still unclear on the crafting angle (I'd like to make my own stimpacks and small arms, but am totally clueless as to exactly how much of the system works), but as long as the Starsider crew continues to be enjoyable to be around, I think I'll stick around long enough to figure some things out.

I still find it ridiculous that I can run right off a waterfall with no ill effects, but butterflies have nearly killed me twice. Ah well.

~MJK

[Union Carbide]

I have hotkeyed stim packs (which I can craft myself) that I can use to heal myself on the fly as well.

Don't hotkey the stimpak directly, go to your action menu (ctrl-a) and drag "Heal" to a hotkey instead - you will automatically use the best stimpak available, and you don't have to keep digging around in your pack to make a new hotkey when your current stack of stimpaks runs out.

Also, if you do much healing of wounds, use /healwound rather than /tendwound. They both do the same thing, but /tendwound gives you mind wounds.

[Acosta]

I believe that all this about "Jedi" is a commercial trick from Sony to make everybody speak about it in every forum around, so they can have a good publicity for free.

And seeing this thread, you know what? it works :wink:

[quatoria]

Your Sony Mind Tricks won't work on me!

[mtkafka]

one hundred posts!

etc

[Mark Asher]

Any hint yet from the devs about the expansion that adds space combat? Are they going to make that six-month timeframe they originally planned?

[Jason McCullough]

Mark Asher is a cruel man.

The initial plan for SWG reminds me of those pictures of "the best house EVAR" I drew as a kid. Olympic indoor heated swimming pool, baseball diamond, every game system in its own separate room, space shuttle launching pad.....

[Ben Sones]

Mark is cruel?

The initial plan for SWG reminds me of those pictures of "the best house EVAR" I drew as a kid. Olympic indoor heated swimming pool, baseball diamond, every game system in its own separate room, space shuttle launching pad.....

That's harsh, Jason. True, but harsh.

[Acosta]

The initial plan for SWG reminds me of those pictures of "the best house EVAR" I drew as a kid. Olympic indoor heated swimming pool, baseball diamond, every game system in its own separate room, space shuttle launching pad.....

Doesn´t start that way with every game that goes into development?

[Bub, Andrew]

That's harsh, Jason. True, but harsh.

Jason is harsh?

I'm sitting here wondering how the outer space combat works. Do I pilot my X-Wing up to the TIE Fighter and then hit the action button... and then wait for combat to end?

[Ben Sones]

Well, no. You can't just jump in and start fighting Tie Fighters. That would be lame. You have to start by fighting something a bit less deadly--little bits of space debris, navigational bouys, space butterflys, and the like. Eventually you'll be able to take on Tie Fighters and even become a Jedi Pilot*, but it'll take time.



* Jedi Pilots not actually represented in game.

[TheWombat]

And actually, it won't be an X wing. Or even a Y or B wing. It'll be a hot-air (argon?) balloon first, and when you get enough credits you can buy a small pedal-powered space ship, but only from a player character vendor.

[Rob O'Boston]

Well, no. You can't just jump in and start fighting Tie Fighters. That would be lame. You have to start by fighting something a bit less deadly--little bits of space debris, navigational bouys, space butterflys, and the like. Eventually you'll be able to take on Tie Fighters and even become a Jedi Pilot*, but it'll take time.



Oh my God, why aren't more people playing Planetside???? SWG sounds like it is devoid of anything that made Star Wars cool. PS is one big battle of Hoth!!

[XPav]

Oh my God, why aren't more people playing Planetside???? SWG sounds like it is devoid of anything that made Star Wars cool. PS is one big battle of Hoth!!

Got me. Everything I read about SWG seems to involve dancing or baking or something. I mean, whheeeeee.

[Brian Rucker]

Look all the content isn't in. However, I am having a pretty ground-eye view experience that's essentially Star Wars. My character is part of what's essentially a small town that's ostensibly 'neutral'. Politics are creeping into every event with debates and arguments over The Empire and The Alliance. Larger outside militant (PvP) PAs are still not interested in VR yet but when player cities are in and there's a thriving economy there it's very likely that one or the other will try to muscle in (under the new PvP rules) and build territory controlling bases around there. In the meantime my character is building up a personal webwork of contacts all over the galaxy and getting a good handle on how to sell resources and items for a profit. That's where most characters were in the Star Wars melieu before all hell broke loose. Luke did spend time with Uncle Owen. Han had contacts everywhere and knew the trade lanes. Lando was a very successful mine manager among other things. We're still in the prelude stages of SWG. Content will come.

My character is a covert Rebel and has recruited several formerly neutral characters to the cause and spends a good deal of time training and equipping them out of a Rebel base. Most missions are, in game terms, randomized and routine but there are larger installations out there to tackle once we're up to speed. And because we're roleplayers very little is mundane even about the routine. Characters have issues, backstories creep in, and with good folks around this believable environment can lead to very credible scenes that feel right.

For me Star Wars wasn't so much about the TIE Fighters or Jedi, they're iconic and they had damned well better be in sooner or later, but about the characters in the original films. The banter between Solo and Leia or the training between Yoda and Luke. I'm for the first time in a MMORPG environment which supports some suspension of disbelief and retains players with the wherewithall to be entertaining on their own terms.

That's just my roleplayer's take on things. A very subjective slice but a real one.

[Jason McCullough]

You could do that roleplaying without any game wrappings whatsoever; you could do it in an IRC channel. What does the game itself add (other than pretty graphics) to help that roleplaying experience? Mashing out pies seems entirely superfluous.

[Andrew Mayer]

That's where most characters were in the Star Wars melieu before all hell broke loose. Luke did spend time with Uncle Owen. Han had contacts everywhere and knew the trade lanes. Lando was a very successful mine manager among other things. We're still in the prelude stages of SWG. Content will come.


Every time you post one of these apologies for the game my interest drops even farther beneath the floor.

Lando the "Mine Manager"? You're crackin' me up ovah heah...

Do you remember just how much Luke hated being stuck on Uncle Owen's moisture farm? His total boredom was the motivation to adventure, the reason he left that life behind.

[Matt Perkins]

You could do that roleplaying without any game wrappings whatsoever; you could do it in an IRC channel. What does the game itself add (other than pretty graphics) to help that roleplaying experience? Mashing out pies seems entirely superfluous.
You could do it that way, but that doesn't compare to having a system you can roleplay in. My wife used to roleplay whitewolf games in this online chatroom. They pretended to follow the rules, but a lot of them either fudged it or just didn't care...meaning if they were supposed to die, they didn't. That took all of the fun out of it for me, so I never gave it a try. I then got her hooked on the actual whitewolf system in PnP...she loves it and couldn't see playing in that chatroom again.

The structure of the system makes a huge difference. It allows you to roleplay, but to have consequences too. That's why you have a DM in PnP and why you have a computer with rules in MMORPGs.


I am by no means endorsing SWG, which I will not even think about playing until probably 6 months from now at the least, or maybe never, depending upon how Verant handles this game (I was burned in EQ, I refuse to sign up for that again in SWG).

[Xaroc]

Every time you post one of these apologies for the game my interest drops even farther beneath the floor.

Lando the "Mine Manager"? You're crackin' me up ovah heah...

Do you remember just how much Luke hated being stuck on Uncle Owen's moisture farm? His total boredom was the motivation to adventure, the reason he left that life behind.

Yeah, fuck moisture farming I want to be a Jedi or pilot the Millenium Falcon or be Bobba Fett or some reasonable facimile thereof.

-- Xaroc

[Brian Rucker]

You could do that roleplaying without any game wrappings whatsoever; you could do it in an IRC channel. What does the game itself add (other than pretty graphics) to help that roleplaying experience? Mashing out pies seems entirely superfluous.

Mashing out pies isn't superfluous for someone that enjoys playing a chef.

There are these people out there and they are certainly in SWG. The kinds of players that enjoy crafting seem to really enjoy the options and complexity in SWG. I've got no idea how well this style of play is represented among those that post in the Qt3 forums.

In IRC, or a MUSH, for that matter you can banter and roleplay your heart out. What you don't have so much is the 'grounding' of a codebase that motivates you to actually do something. There's no objective measure of success. When there are material and conflict oriented realities out there it focuses roleplay and creates more interesting situations that can be roleplayed around. You spend less time 'dreaming up' stuff for your character to do and more time invested in tackling hardcoded challenges 'in character'.

I know this must sound kinda airy fairy to the Super Monkeyball crowd here but that's roleplayese.

[Ben Sones]

So anyone that doesn't like Galaxies isn't a role-player? That's convenient. I guess my ~24 years in the hobby are meaningless simply because I think that role-playing the mashing out of pies is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I'm about as far from a hack-and-slash player as you can get (short of venturing into pie-making territory), but while I'd like to see RPGs focus on stuff other than combat, I'd also like that stuff to be interesting. Variety in an RPG is not a virtue in and of itself if said variety consists of a bunch of mundane and repetitive tasks that are even less entertaining than typical MMORPG combat.

How many pen & paper games have you played that bother to offer mechanics for crafting baked goods? I can't think of any, off the top of my head, and I have somehwere in the neighborhood of 70 RPGs on my bookshelf. The reason for this is simple: given the opportunity to do anything (P&P games are limited only by the players' imaginations), nobody wants to bake imaginary pies.

[NI]

Do you remember just how much Luke hated being stuck on Uncle Owen's moisture farm? His total boredom was the motivation to adventure, the reason he left that life behind.
So basically SWG is a perfectly acurate depiction of the boredom that drove individuals to head out into space, become jedis, conquer the galaxy and otherwise have a ball?

Wake me up when the second part gets implemented. (Or better yet: When the PC version of KotOR is released)

[XPav]

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/jm.pot/chef/images/chef7.jpg

Mesheeng oooot peees isn't sooperffloouoos fur sumeune-a thet injuys pleyeeng a cheff.

I mean Brian, I can tell you like the game, but its just confusing to those us used to playing Jedi Knight 2, KOTOR, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, whatever, that the Star Wars online game appears to be about crafting.

[Brian Rucker]

So anyone that doesn't like Galaxies isn't a role-player? That's convenient. I guess my ~24 years in the hobby are meaningless simply because I think that role-playing the mashing out of pies is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I'm about as far from a hack-and-slash player as you can get (short of venturing into pie-making territory), but while I'd like to see RPGs focus on stuff other than combat, I'd also like that stuff to be interesting. Variety in an RPG is not a virtue in and of itself if said variety consists of a bunch of mundane and repetitive tasks that are even less entertaining than typical MMORPG combat.

I don't see how anyone could roleplay mashing out pies. The kinds of people who like to mash out pies in SWG may or may not even be interested in roleplaying. You'd need to talk to them about why they like it. Maybe even talk to the designers about what compelled them to put it in. Could it have been feedback from players who wanted this in other games? What I suspect a roleplayed artisan gets out of it can be a sense of identity and a place in the economy and community. As somebody on the street who they are and they'll likely as not tell you what they do for a living.

I don't ever think I accused you or anyone of failure as a roleplayer if they don't like SWG. However I'm surrounded with a bunch of accomplished roleplayers, combatants and not, that seem to be having a great time with the systems in the game. That's not to say we all don't have pet complaints and some very serious issues with an array of things. That said, everyone's still excited about the experience and the immersiveness of it so far.

We'll see how long that lasts if SOE doesn't deliver all the things they've promised though.


How many pen & paper games have you played that bother to offer mechanics for crafting baked goods? I can't think of any, off the top of my head, and I have somehwere in the neighborhood of 70 RPGs on my bookshelf. The reason for this is simple: given the opportunity to do anything (P&P games are limited only by the players' imaginations), nobody wants to bake imaginary pies.

How many tabletop wargames allowed you to indulge in the kinds of trivia and detail that The Operation Art of War does? Who among the 'hardcore gamer' intelligensia anticipated the utter mundanity of a game like The Sims would appeal?

The kinds of pacing and perspective needed for what's essentially a world economic, personal and military simulator in which players can play for months on end and 24 hours a day is probably a bit different than what worked for once a week sessions back in the good old days.

[Jason McCullough]

When I roleplay a chef, I want to roleplay the character, experience the way he interacts with other people, whatever - not do the drudge work of mixing shit. Maybe it's just me.

I understand the MUSH thing, really; I just don't understand how adding pointless make-work "gameplay" to the perfectly fine MUSH experience makes it better. The graphics do, obviously, but the "game"?

[JD]

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/jm.pot/chef/images/chef7.jpg

Mesheeng oooot peees isn't sooperffloouoos fur sumeune-a thet injuys pleyeeng a cheff.

It's turkey time!

[Ben Sones]

I don't ever think I accused you or anyone of failure as a roleplayer if they don't like SWG.

I didn't mean to sound harsh--I don't begrudge you (or anyone else) your right to enjoy Galaxies as much as you want. I just take umbrage with your implication that the "Super Mokeyball crowd" here doesn't understand the fine points of role-playerese. I understand it just fine, and I still think Galaxies sounds deadly dull.

How many tabletop wargames allowed you to indulge in the kinds of trivia and detail that The Operation Art of War does?

Few, but that's because PCs are that much better at crunching numbers, and thus capable of adding detail without also adding more drudgework. That's hardly analogous to Galaxies, though. It's not like P&P gamers have always yearned to make craft pies but weren't able to because P&P mechanics couldn't handle all the intricacies. And it's also not like the ability to add complexity to a game means that you should. I mean, WWII Online modelled every aspect of war right down to tying your bootlaces before battle, but it didn't make it a better game. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Rywill]

(double post)

[Rywill]

Yeah, when I roleplay, I enjoy roleplaying a particular character. However, I ususally prefer to just make up that character's boring pre-game life in my head ("Grew up on a farm tending moisture vaporators, until one day he couldn't stand it anymore and struck out for Mos Eisley to make his fortune as a smuggler.") I don't want to actually play that boring back-story. I want to start playing on the day I arrive in Mos Eisley. Maybe that makes me a poor role-player in Brian Rucker's eyes, but so be it.

[Ben Sones]

More to the point, I can understand people wanting to role-play characters that don't go out and kill things--I just think every MMORPG to date has implemented such characters very poorly. Here's a good explanation from just such a player:

http://www.stratics.com/content/editorials/articles/bread.php

I particularly agree with #6. If someone wants to play an artisan character, I'd wager it's because they are interested in the economics and player interaction that goes with running a business, or because they like the idea of attaining fame as a master crafter/baker/whatever. But I doubt that many people sit down and say "you know, I love role-playing a baker because it means I get to spend hours shuffling shit around in my inventory."

And this is a key problem with MMORPGs in general: one of the most commonly recurring game mechanics is the concept of trading time spent enduring tedium for advancement in the game. You want to let people play artisans in your game? Fine. Identify what's fun about playing an artisan, and eliminate everything else.

[Jason McCullough]

And this is a key problem with MMORPGs in general: one of the most commonly recurring game mechanics is the concept of trading time spent enduring tedium for advancement in the game.

I can't imagine why that's the case! I'm sure everyone else will be stumped at identifying why the primary MMORPG game mechanic is tediously wasting time, too!

[Brian Rucker]

I'm probably the one that was a little harsh, Ben. I'm having a ball and I think I understand why it is that this game is so compelling. What's frustrating is that either I'm unable to express it effectively or something's getting lost in the translation.

There is no One Absolute Truth of roleplaying. If there were I'm pretty sure I'd rail against it myself on principle.

I'll give it one more shot and then give up before my voice takes on a Koontzian waver. The complexities in this yet unfinished game create the opportunities for roleplayers to really flesh out routines and behaviors that express who their characters are. My IC boss is forging deals with various weapon manufacturers for distribution. The city founder is walking a tight rope that's almost as much OOC as IC in dealing between Imperial and Rebel (mostly covert) factions within the town limits as well as keeping outside PAs at bay. A armorcrafter is hiring scouts to get particular kinds of hides she needs. A ranger set up a droid in the town cantina with each item a sample of a nearby resource complete with waypoint data. Debates broke out in council about the meaning of neutrality within the bounds of an Empire. Creatures wandering through the streets have to be cleared before a fair can begin. A wedding on distant Corellia attracts individuals from many different roleplaying PAs and new friendships and rivalries are formed. A major battle on Tatooine is a directory of the major power players in the Galactic Civil War and (despite some issues with battlefield code) future bloodshed is assured. A crazy Bothan spy leads my character on a meandering chase all over Corellia, and involving a half-dozen RP encounters, before actually introducing him to an NPC he was seeking.

And so on.

[TheWombat]

"How many tabletop wargames allowed you to indulge in the kinds of trivia and detail that The Operation Art of War does?"

More than you'd think, really. :P You should see the rules to some of the miniatures campaigns for WWII and modern armor, for instance. And if you've every tried to play a boardgame "monster" wargame, well, TOAW can't hold a candle to the gnats' ass picayune anal retentive detail that usually goes along with it. And I like wargames, but it makes my mind boggle sometimes.

I think in re SWG no one really wants to criticize anyone for liking the game, or for not liking it--it's your $15/month after all, not anyone elses. But it is real clear that there is a fundamental disconnect between the camps. I put myself firmly in the camp that says "Star Wars is blasters, space ships, daring escapes, high-level intrigue, big battles, shit blowing up, lightsaber fights, and everyone a hero." A worm's eye view of life in the slums of Mos Eisley is about as fun to me as, well, the time I spent living in the slums of Baltimore. No thanks.

I can however see how it's a case of different strokes, etc. There's a lot to do in SWG, and if it floats your boat, more power to ya. I leaves my dingy high and dry though.

[Greg417]

If someone wants to play an artisan character, I'd wager it's because they are interested in the economics and player interaction that goes with running a business, or because they like the idea of attaining fame as a master crafter/baker/whatever. But I doubt that many people sit down and say "you know, I love role-playing a baker because it means I get to spend hours shuffling shit around in my inventory."

Ultima 7 really is the true forebear to SWG! You can bake your own bread, and you can spend hours shuffling shit around in your inventory!

[Caryn Law]

I thought I'd jump into this thread by talking a bit about my character in SWG - she's a Novice Chef, halfway to her first tier toward Master.

I used to play EQ, AO, and DAoC, but I never really crafted much in them, though I'd heard the horror stories about baking in EQ. I started out as a dancer, found that fun but started getting tired of JUST dancing, so I started crafting stuff.

Despite the fact that the chef class is a bit broken, I'm having more fun in SWG than I ever had in any previous MMORPG (but I should add the caveat that I've got a really low tolerance bar for fun in an MMORPG -- hell, it took a few months before AO finally aggravated me enough to stop playing it).

The crafting IS fun, to me. There are aspects of it I don't like -- the timer, as someone mentioned, is stupid. But I can sort of see how they're trying solutions to make the crafting less boring for people who don't like it without allowing too much power leveling.

So here's my character's story: by day (meaning, maybe, the first half of my play time) she's a chef who just opened her own small cafe outside of Coronet on Corellia, with a waitress and some cafe tables. By night (the last half of my play time) she's a soldier in the Rebel Alliance, close to a promotion to Lance Corporal. She's covert, so no one would suspect that the pretty little Twi'lek chef in her cute little skirt and lekku wraps selling tasty drinks in the cantina is really a Rebel soldier running information for the Alliance and taking out Imperial soldiers when needed. Business is picking up for the cafe as more people recognize that she's the only chef on the server and ask if she's got one, and her food and resources sell out completely at the bazaar.

I roleplay the hell out of my character and thoroughly enjoy it. I bring lots of food and drink with me to the cantina, get behind the bar and dance, and I actually make thousands of credits as people buy food and drink from me. When someone asks what a Starshine Surprise costs, I tell them and I explain that it's so good that Jabba just ordered a whole shipment of it from me. I talk about how this particular batch is special because I had to go all the way to Talus just to get the wheat to ferment, because it was the best wheat for this drink in the galaxy (and that last part can be true -- I've traveled to other planets to get better resources so that my drinks are better buffs than someone else's, and therefore are more desireable).

I like that the crafting allows you to make your items unique. Yes, all chefs can make Starshine Surprises, but I can experiment with mine, both with resource gathering and usage and with experimentation points, to tweak mine. Maybe mine are better than Chef So and So's because I find better wheat or I put my experimentation points more into quality than quantity.

Now, if I want to bypass that crafting, I can, but it requires me to work my way up into being able to afford and use a factory. I hated surveying at first; it was boring and long. Once I could afford one wind harvester and one mineral harvester, suddenly I was able to afford flora farms to do the gathering for me. No more boring surveying. Once I can afford (and once they fix) food factories, I won't have to sit and craft anymore, which I like. It's an answer to the "crafting is boring!!" statement, though admittedly it's not the perfect answer.

Another thing I really enjoy about SWG is the truly persistent nature of the persistent world. Unlike EQ and many other MMORPGs, the world and even my character truly change when I'm not playing. Just logging in is exciting -- did I make money? Woohoo! I sold 10 dishes on the bazaar! And because people have eaten them, my Food Crafting experience has gone up! Hey, my merchant experience has hit 10K while I was gone -- I can afford to have a vendor that talks to customers now! Whoa, my harvesters are 10% full, cool! I feel like the world really does evolve while I'm gone.

As far as the roleplaying aspect and the importance of a person's character in the universe, I think SWG does more things right in that regard than many have done so far. The main problem with MMORPGs is that you really can't have a world where everyone is a hero or being a hero would cease to be unique, so they make everyone mundane and you have to work your way toward hero status. And the structure of MMORPGs puts the onus on the player to do this, much more than a single player game with a story line and a fleshed out main character that saves the day. On a basic level, my character makes food and fights Imperial soldiers. On a more interesting level, my character runs a cafe and has become well-known for her tasty dishes that boost your health and energy, and she secretly runs information and missions for the Rebel Alliance, working her way secretly up the chain of command. (I guess she's kind of like Steven Seagal in that movie where he was a Navy chef, except with more lekku and fewer bad movie reviews.)

Giving my character a story requires me to really come up with it and roleplay it myself, because the game won't do it for me, and I think that's the issue many people have with MMORPGs -- they want and expect the game to do that for them. I think SWG gives the player better tools to do this, and it can be fun as long as you don't expect to be a hero jedi saving the universe the moment your character sets first foot in the game.

[Matt Perkins]

I don't even play SWG (though after reading your accounting of it, I'm tempted), but I want to buy pies from you. You sound like a great roleplayer and like you're having a great time with SWG.


BUT, is this do to the things SWG allows, or is this just the fact, as you mentioned, that you will make any game fun and you have tolerances for the game world (not being able to buy food factories, for instance, would annoy me)?

[XPav]

When the chef shows up and tells us that dammit, she's having fun, despite all the fun we're making of "chefs mashing out pies", I think have to step back and say that I've lost this particular argument.

[Caryn Law]

BUT, is this do to the things SWG allows, or is this just the fact, as you mentioned, that you will make any game fun and you have tolerances for the game world (not being able to buy food factories, for instance, would annoy me)?

I think it's equal parts both. I admit that, as I've said, I will find fun in most any MMORPG you give me, but I'm having a much different kind of fun in SWG, and as another poster here has said, I'm having difficulty articulating what it is that I find fun about it despite the fact that I'm not a Jedi and I'm not flying a Tie-fighter and blowing up the Deathstar.

I think it's the sheer variety of choices I have in the story I can create for my character and thus the experience for the people around me. For instance, one of the things I'd like to do eventually in the game is buy a large building for my cafe and have basically a restaurant in the main rooms. Then I want to hire a Smuggler to get me spices -- which are essentially drugs in the game; they boost your stats by wicked amounts and destroy things like your focus, and when they run out of your system your character will actually start puking from withdrawals -- and I want to sell spices in a back room.

And if it's possible, I want my back rooms in the restaurant to become a kind of underground Rebellion railroad. I want to pass information and missions covertly on to fellow Rebel soldiers. I want my Twi'lek chef to become known as A Twi'lek In the Know (Wink Wink) when it comes to other players looking for information against the Imperial army.

This is the kind of story that itegrates well with the type of "every day man in the street" and Galactic War combination world that SWG has built. I guess it's just a matter of time to see if it's possible. I think it might be.

[Jackstar]

Sure, it's possible. But, is it implemented?

Get back to me in six months.

[Jason McCullough]

Business is picking up for the cafe as more people recognize that she's the only chef on the server and ask if she's got one, and her food and resources sell out completely at the bazaar.


Ok, your description makes it sound more like ATITD, so I can see that. If only I could try it without paying.....

[Ben Sones]

I think it's the sheer variety of choices I have in the story I can create for my character and thus the experience for the people around me. For instance, one of the things I'd like to do eventually in the game is buy a large building for my cafe and have basically a restaurant in the main rooms. Then I want to hire a Smuggler to get me spices -- which are essentially drugs in the game; they boost your stats by wicked amounts and destroy things like your focus, and when they run out of your system your character will actually start puking from withdrawals -- and I want to sell spices in a back room.

All that sounds very cool, and I can see that sort of character being fun to play. But what is it about Galaxies' mechanics, specifically, that you need in order to role-play such a character? Couldn't you do something similar in any game that allows players to own buildings and items? Or, as Jason said before, in a chatroom with a group of equally imaginative and dedicated people? And while your description of your character concept sounds interesting, how much of the day to day reality of playing the game involves all that wheeling and dealing and back-door smuggling intrigue and the glamour of running a restaurant as opposed to time spent in your inventory clicking on cereal fruit reasources over and over and over and over for hours on end making wastril bread at 70 xp a pop, knowing that you'll probably end up destroying all of it because nobody wants to buy it, but making it anyway because it's the only way you can advance? I'd like to believe that Galaxies has that kind of depth of interactivity (the first kind, not the making wastril bread over and over kind, which is exactly the type of interactivity that I suspect that it actually has), but then I read stuff like this in the forums:

Do you macro (primarily unattended)? Perhaps it's the role-player in me, but my character is seldom (if ever) doing anything if I'm not behind her. So, every bit of CXP is with me clicking buttons, and every bit of Factory XP is with me either crafting nearby or wandering around near it. I'm just curious if in these two things I'm working against myself. After all, just to get the first tier now, I've calculated that even if I just sat there and made wastril bread it would take about 45 hours (1-2 weeks). To catch up to the level I'm hearing, It would take me round 3 months, if not more.

...and am forced to conclude that there must be some sort of cognitive dissonance at work that allows people to pretend that this is fun.

[Caryn Law]

And while your description of your character concept sounds interesting, how much of the day to day reality of playing the game involves all that wheeling and dealing and back-door smuggling intrigue and the glamour of running a restaurant as opposed to time spent in your inventory clicking on cereal fruit reasources over and over and over and over for hours on end making wastril bread at 70 xp a pop, knowing that you'll probably end up destroying all of it because nobody wants to buy it, but making it anyway because it's the only way you can advance? I'd like to believe that Galaxies has that kind of depth of interactivity (the first kind, not the making wastril bread over and over kind, which is exactly the type of interactivity that I suspect that it actually has), but then I read stuff like this in the forums:

...and am forced to conclude that there must be some sort of cognitive dissonance at work that allows people to pretend that this is fun.

My having fun in SWG definitely doesn't completely mask some of the issues I have with it, and that includes the grinding on wastril bread issue. However, I haven't sat down and simply ground out items to get experience and deleted them (or done them in the new Practice Mode, either).

I've just come to expect that climbing up the level tree as fast as I can possibly shoot is not going to be a goal for me. I'd like to level faster, but it's not going to happen right now. That said, I'm not running into the problem you describe above: my character sells every bit of food she makes, and sells out of it before I log her in the next time I play. Every single time. So often when I log in I'll take some time to craft some stacks of the items in most demand that I know I get experience for, put them up for sale on the bazaar or my cafe, and then go off and play other parts of the game, which might be doing Rebellion missions, or visiting the cantina and dancing and socializing, or checking on my harvesters, or just exploring a new city or area, all of which I find fun.

I'm not going to level as fast as other people, but that's just something I'm going to accept. For right now, my luck hinges on the fact that few other people have picked up the chef class.

The crafting system isn't perfect, that's for certain. But there are some interesting things about it I like -- being able to experiment, being able to name your items uniquely, being able to decide which resources to use and having a choice to achieve different affects. Having to sit and make them, yeah, that sucks. I don't know how to get rid of that and still keep the cool parts.

[Caryn Law]

All that sounds very cool, and I can see that sort of character being fun to play. But what is it about Galaxies' mechanics, specifically, that you need in order to role-play such a character? Couldn't you do something similar in any game that allows players to own buildings and items? Or, as Jason said before, in a chatroom with a group of equally imaginative and dedicated people?

I wanted to think about this a bit before I answered...

I could do something similar in a game that allows players to own buildings and items. But I like the Star Wars mythology and I like the universe; I want to build a character in which I can do these things while participating in that universe.

Sure, I could also do it in a chatroom with imaginative people. But then I don't get to see the pretty clothes my Twi'lek can wear, or watch her giggle when I type /giggle, or see her dance in the cantina and listen to actual music as she dances.

[TheWombat]

I find it interesting that people have such varying levels of identification with the Star Wars universe. For some, like myself, it's a very low-complexity high-energy thing, blasters and space ships and Jedi and war. For others it's the details of Tatooine or Naboo and Twi'leks and Bothans and moisture farming. I think it's pretty interesting that there is such a difference in what people expect/want/like about the same basic universe.

[quatoria]

Sure, I could also do it in a chatroom with imaginative people. But then I don't get to see the pretty clothes my Twi'lek can wear, or watch her giggle when I type /giggle, or see her dance in the cantina and listen to actual music as she dances.

So, basically, the Star Wars experience is a combination of barbie dress up and easy bake oven. Gotcha.

[Caryn Law]

So, basically, the Star Wars experience is a combination of barbie dress up and easy bake oven. Gotcha.

Yep, when I'm not out fighting for the Rebel Alliance, which is about a third of my playing time. But that's just my experience. I think there is a big variety of experiences to be had in this game with all the different professions.

But having said that, I definitely feel like the game took a huge cue from The Sims, and that it appeals greatly to a female audience (and I even feel weird saying that because I'm a female who normally plays hardcore shooter titles). I know two women who play and both are Dancers who totally get into the Barbie Dress-Up aspect of the game. And one of them has risen pretty high up the Rebel Alliance chain in battle -- when she became a Master Dancer she got a huge battle bonus, making her the best shot in the entire group she plays with. Now she's off at some remote Rebel base getting missions from Princess Leia. When vehicles and starships are put into the game, I can imagine that'll translate into a very cool battle experience for her. And so to me, she's experience a terrific blend of both types of gameplay that the game offers: Playing House and Galactic War.

[NuclearWinter]

its just confusing to those us used to playing Jedi Knight 2, KOTOR, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, whatever, that the Star Wars online game appears to be about crafting.

Uhm, I've not crafted a single thing in SWG... Personally I spend most of my in game time slaying rancors or raiding Rebel bases with my squad of stormtroopers or attempting to finish this quest to recover a lightsaber from a secretive group of force wielding Night Sisters, but whatever.

Actually I lied about the crafting part, I do spend about a minute a day crafting some stimpacks while waiting for the spaceshuttle to Endor - where upon arrival I will derive pleasure from hunting ewoks and selling their hides for people to make clothes from.

[Jason McCullough]

Sure, I could also do it in a chatroom with imaginative people. But then I don't get to see the pretty clothes my Twi'lek can wear, or watch her giggle when I type /giggle, or see her dance in the cantina and listen to actual music as she dances.

So, basically, the Star Wars experience is a combination of barbie dress up and easy bake oven. Gotcha.

Hey, those are fun!

The unfortunate thing is that every MMORPG appears to be bringing us closer to the goal of realistically simulating the life of, say, a Nicaraguan shopkeeper who helps out the rebels after hours. Drudgery and violence, ahoy!

[Creole Ned]

Playing House and Galactic War.
That should be on the game box. ;)

I've never played a MMOG before and I cannot fathom paying $15 U.S. per month (over $20 Canadian) to play SWG, but Caryn's descriptions do make it sound oddly appealing. I like the fact that the game seems to offer a good variety to both the roleplaying/crafting crowd and the typical "bash small rats until you can bash bigger rats" crowd.

Now, can you really hunt Ewoks? I'd think George would have not allowed that...although he did take out their silly little song and dance in the special edition of Return of the Jedi. Hmm...

[NuclearWinter]

Now, can you really hunt Ewoks? I'd think George would have not allowed that...

The ones I've seen are apparently "outcast ewoks", but yes you can hunt them... Not sure if there are any non-outcast ewoks to kill as my exploration of Endor has been limited so far (I hunt on Dathomir mostly). You can kill gungans too on Naboo, that's also enjoyable but sadly I've not seen one named Jar Jar Binks yet - I refuse to kill Jawas though, those little dudes are cool.

[Ben Sones]

I could do something similar in a game that allows players to own buildings and items. But I like the Star Wars mythology and I like the universe; I want to build a character in which I can do these things while participating in that universe.

Fair enough. I guess my big complaint--and this isn't limited to Galaxies, by any means--is that this sort of role-playing occurs almost in spite of the game's mechanics rather than because of them. So much of the actual mechanics of these games--using and improving skills, earning levels--feels like drudgework. I think PlanetSide may have spoiled me a bit in this regard, because it's the first MMO game that's so much fun just to play, on a minute-to-minute basis, that I don't really care how fast I level. And yeah, everyone can say how it's a shooter and doesn't live by the same rules as an RPG, but I think it could. Why does improving your baking skills have to be so boring? Hell, I half wish that someone would have the cojones to design a MMO game with no levelling at all. Just design your character and play. Then the designers could stop worrying about how many hours of clicking it should take weaponsmiths to reach the next sub-level of gun-barrel-making and focus on providing players with things to do that are actually fun.

Yeah, I said the "F" word. But MMORPGs really need a big ol' booster shot of fun, so Tom can bite me.

;)

[Brian Koontz]

Hell, I half wish that someone would have the cojones to design a MMO game with no levelling at all. Just design your character and play.

{Whispers}... Player-based and not Character-based!

Player-based skill. Think about real life. Is real life a levelling grind? Or is it a combination of skill, talent, and experience?

Puzzle Pirates... how good you are at swordfighting is a matter of the quality of your sword and YOUR SKILL at the game. You don't go through a level grind to get better at the game (there are skill levels inexplicably, although I don't know what they do), although additional experience at playing the game and *training* from good players helps. Your *character* is irrelevant... its YOU playing the game.

The basic mistake is to have Role-playing in the game. Thus the need for Characters... for a separation between the player and his character.

Replace Characters with Avatars. Its YOU playing the game, guiding your Avatar around. Its a matter of Doom or Duke Nukem instead of Morrowind. Possession instead of The Guiding Hand.

How well you do in the game should be a matter of how effective YOU are in the game... not how effective your character is. Puzzle Pirates executes this by means of skill games within the game. Other ways to execute this can be devised as well.

Take a look at a Warcraft ladder. Its pure ability. Players compete against each other... there is no levelling grind. The winners move up, the losers move down. Experience helps, skill helps, talent helps, etc. There are no Characters.

Lets say I'm walking down a street in an Autoduel-inspired MMOG. I can try to carjack someone. I can walk into the AADA office to get a courier, guard, or construction mission, I can apply for a job in the FBI, etc. Its ME doing these things... not a character. My avatar does them.

How well I do at the guard mission is based on luck (how effective an attack occurs), my skill at car combat, the quality of my car, the skill of my fellow guards, etc. All skill is WITHIN THE GAMEPLAY, and not based on a superstructure called a "character skill level".

When you shoot a monster in Doom, does the game check a "character skill level" to determine if you hit? No... fuck that! Its YOUR skill that determines it.

[Brian Rucker]

I think Caryn did a much better job explaining things than I did, or could have. Crafting isn't a big thing for me (though I did have fun figuring out which combinations of experimentations would make good weapon upgrades - evidently with many items the quality level you select can offer markedly different traits and the highest isn't always the best). Combat isn't a big thing for me, on its own merits, either although next to roleplaying (and running around planets on foot) it's the thing that takes up most of my time. And you know what, when my character needs food he'll find someone that likes crafting food to get what he needs. When he needs backup to hunt big game or deal with a dangerous location he'll hire a few 'rat bashers' as retainers.




Fair enough. I guess my big complaint--and this isn't limited to Galaxies, by any means--is that this sort of role-playing occurs almost in spite of the game's mechanics rather than because of them. So much of the actual mechanics of these games--using and improving skills, earning levels--feels like drudgework. I think PlanetSide may have spoiled me a bit in this regard, because it's the first MMO game that's so much fun just to play, on a minute-to-minute basis, that I don't really care how fast I level. And yeah, everyone can say how it's a shooter and doesn't live by the same rules as an RPG, but I think it could. Why does improving your baking skills have to be so boring? Hell, I half wish that someone would have the cojones to design a MMO game with no levelling at all. Just design your character and play. Then the designers could stop worrying about how many hours of clicking it should take weaponsmiths to reach the next sub-level of gun-barrel-making and focus on providing players with things to do that are actually fun.

Yeah, I said the "F" word. But MMORPGs really need a big ol' booster shot of fun, so Tom can bite me.

;)

I don't think I see much in there to disagree with. I've been saying the grind sucks and gameplay (immersion through simulation and coding with an eye to psychology to me or maybe an aspect of what Koster calls impositional design) should be enhanced since the beginning of time. I remember arguing with folks all the time on the old CGM boards when I called for this. I don't know if I'd hold up Planetside as a model for what SWG 'should have been' though, admittedly I haven't played it. I can't imagine anyone simmering down long enough to actually roleplay. I can't see what folks that like crafting or politics would get out of that. It's just not, IMHO, a good baseline for creating societies and the pressures that move them and MMORPGs are online societies. But you have to create environments people other than Sgt. Rock and Ghengis Khan can relate to if you want a more interesting, subtle, place to live.

That said, a little Rock n' Khan you end up with zero drama and The Sims Online instead.

I'll bet that when PvP does include the holding of territory and the building of bases the battles around Vagabond's Rest are going to mean a whole lot more to the players there (and characters) with their variety of reactions to the mayhem than battles on Planetside mean to the players there. Much more to work with as a roleplayer. More interesting inter-personal dynamics not only inspired by, but to an extent, inflicted by the hardcoded systems.

[Rywill]

{Whispers}... Player-based and not Character-based!
The problem with going that route is that it makes it difficult for people to roleplay a character with very different skills. I might want to play SWG as a Han Solo-type, but if I don't have good twitch skills (for shooting and piloting), I'm out of luck. Guess I'll have to play a Space Lawyer or something. IMO, there's room for both types of games. I like games that are entirely (or mostly) dependent on player skill, like PlanetSide and Warcraft. But for some types of games, particularly role-playing games where I'm trying to slip into an alter-ego, I prefer it to be more dependent on character skill. It doesn't have to be ALL character skill (like EQ is); I prefer a mixture, so that I feel like I am adding something to what goes on (particularly in combat). DAOC was going in the right direction with combat, I thought--your character skills made a big difference in what you can do (how well you hit, whether you can cast spells, what special abilities you have access to), but there was a measure of player skill required as well (deciding what specials to use, trying to use triggered specials and chain combos where appropriate, balancing how much stamina to keep in reserve for possible flight, etc.).

I'm also not too keen on Ben's idea of no advancement. I like feeling as if my character has a story arc; that he's grown better and more powerful since I started. Although I'm not in favor of fighting rats and garden snakes to start, I do like the idea of starting out fighting lesser monsters, and working your way up to fighting giants and dragons. If a game came out where your character didn't grow or change at all, I would miss that aspect.

[Brian Koontz]

The problem with going that route is that it makes it difficult for people to roleplay a character with very different skills. I might want to play SWG as a Han Solo-type, but if I don't have good twitch skills (for shooting and piloting), I'm out of luck.

But it also means that everything you do you aren't really doing... you're just guiding your character. (You can tell your character to shoot, but its his skill at shooting that determines the outcome).

I'm looking for depth of experience... and having a built in separation between your actions and the outcome (by mediating it through character skill) is a hindrance toward that.

Guess I'll have to play a Space Lawyer or something.

That's another thing. In a move toward simulation I like realistic worlds. You should *be able* to be a Space Lawyer in a world that includes space activity (such as Star Wars Galaxies in the expansion).

And when its Player-based, you most likely would be GOOD at being a Space Lawyer... good without a levelling grind of any sort. You'd still have to learn the differences between Space Lawyer and your current job, and you'd have to learn a new set of laws (or multiple sets of laws depending on the different regions of space and their law-creating bodies). But then you'd be set. You'd set up shop, give advice for money, represent clients in court, etc.

But you wouldn't *have* to be a Space Lawyer... you could be a Space Outlaw. You'd have to sacrifice quality but you may well have more fun. As previously mentioned, if noone wanted to be a Space Janitor the NPC system would take care of it.

IMO, there's room for both types of games.

Sure, but plenty of Character-based games exist and other than Puzzle Pirates, no Player-based ones in a MMOG model (Planetside is a FPS with MMOG elements). Player-based in a game LIKE Everquest should happen.

I like games that are entirely (or mostly) dependent on player skill, like PlanetSide and Warcraft. But for some types of games, particularly role-playing games where I'm trying to slip into an alter-ego, I prefer it to be more dependent on character skill.

I'm trying to adjust the Paradigm of MMOGs away from Role-Playing games and into Simulations. To me, a game like Everquest should not be about playing a role, it should be about simulating a world. The players therein should create themselves within that world. The Character/Avatar duology is a symbol at the heart of this.

There is some value in a Character-based MMOG, but there is much more value in a Player-based one. MMOGs are social constructs, they are social worlds just like any other community. They are no different from a city or a club. When I interact with someone in my club I'd rather they be themself and not be playing a role.

My previous words on undertaking experiments also calls for a Player-based system. If you are trying to understand the effect of attitudes towards heterosexuality and homosexuality and undertake that experiment in-game, its much better to not have the players be "role-playing".

I want to see how humans really are, not how they like their persona to appear.

When I try to determine why someone is baking bread in a game, I'd rather not have them say "I'm roleplaying a baker". What does that mean? I'd rather have them bake bread in a game because they enjoy the bread-baking gameplay OR for reasons similar to what Brian Rucker mentioned... they enjoy being part of a community and assisting that community by providing some of its food. I'd rather have them say "*I* am baking the bread".

[MikeSofaer]

Yeah, the idea I've been kicking about in my head that according to everyone I have approximately zero chance of getting a chance to make has no "leveling" elements. Leveling is by far the most tedious part of MMO gaming. Characters do "advance" but they do it fairly quickly and the option to do it faster by doing tedious things isn't present.

I've been playing SQG some, although I'm feeling like it may be time to stop. I want to join the rebel faction to play in the PVP stuff, but I don't want to do 50 uber-boring rebel missions (given by a "Rebel Recruiter" hanging out in the open on a major Imperial world) to get enough "faction points" to allow my character to make up her mind. If she wants to jump right into killing Impie bastards why can't she? No real reason they should be unattackable. Silly boundaries to what you can and can't do draw me out of the universe.

But this thread started about being a Jedi. I want a Jedi character. I will never get one. This makes me sad. Once I truly accept it I will probably cancel. If I really wanted to play a Jedi I'd shell out $500 on E-bay for one, just like everyone else.

[Ben Sones]

But it also means that everything you do you aren't really doing...

Yeah, that's gaming in a nutshell, Brian. It's all fictional, you know. Unless you think that you are actually shooting people when you play Unreal Tournament, or that your skill with the Flak Gun comes from being a master marksman. My ability to shoot down Migs in Falcon 4.0 has nothing to do with any actual piloting skill. If I were sitting in an F-16 in real life, I doubt I'd even be able to figure out how to fire up the engines. That's half the fun of games--they let you play at doing things that you can't do in real life.

The sort of difference that you are talking about has less to do with player skill than it has to do with the difference between reflex-based game mechanics and decision-based game mechanics. Both require player skill in varying amounts, depending on the difficulty of the game. And neither type generally requires skills that are even remotely similar to the actions they represent in the game fiction.

[MattKeil]

I'm trying to adjust the Paradigm of MMOGs away from Role-Playing games and into Simulations. To me, a game like Everquest should not be about playing a role, it should be about simulating a world. The players therein should create themselves within that world. The Character/Avatar duology is a symbol at the heart of this.


I agree with this 100%. The discussion of what is actually "player skill-based" notwithstanding, the main boredom of MMORPGs for me comes from the fact that it's basically just a really fancy GUI for a multi-user spreadsheet.

~MJK

[Brian Koontz]

But it also means that everything you do you aren't really doing...

Yeah, that's gaming in a nutshell, Brian. It's all fictional, you know. Unless you think that you are actually shooting people when you play Unreal Tournament, or that your skill with the Flak Gun comes from being a master marksman. My ability to shoot down Migs in Falcon 4.0 has nothing to do with any actual piloting skill. If I were sitting in an F-16 in real life, I doubt I'd even be able to figure out how to fire up the engines. That's half the fun of games--they let you play at doing things that you can't do in real life.

That's not what I mean. The classic example I presented a couple years ago was the Duke Nukem vs. Deus Ex comparison. On the Planet Deus Ex forums some people complained about not being able to "control" the shooting in Deus Ex. In other words, they were complaining about the inclusion of "character skill" in favor of "player skill". I introduced Duke Nukem as a Possession game where you were possessing an Avatar. The Avatar has no RPG elements... its YOU controlling him directly. In Deus Ex you are The Guiding Hand... the character skill is an intermediary between you and the character... you only *guide* the character rather than controlling him completely.

The sort of difference that you are talking about has less to do with player skill than it has to do with the difference between reflex-based game mechanics and decision-based game mechanics. Both require player skill in varying amounts, depending on the difficulty of the game. And neither type generally requires skills that are even remotely similar to the actions they represent in the game fiction.

That's just a matter of time. Interfaces will continue to improve and become more realistic.

The shooting stuff is just an example. Yarr! Puzzle Pirates uses a Strategy skill kind of Player-based game... its not a matter of "twitch"... its as you say "decision-based game mechanics".

In my example of Fishing in a MMOG, I present a realistic type of interface. Dawn and dusk provide better conditions, different effects of lures, etc. This is Player-skill again without Twitch.

Player-skill can be done in a 3D FP MMOG (that's based on a RPG or Adventure "world" model). It has to exist within a complete model of course, which is the challenging part.