WoW: GG, account hacked.

[AaronSofaer]

So I go to work this morning and check my email and see a password change notification that I definitely didn't do. Y'know what that means... I check the armory after emailing Billing, and yep, my Priest is naked, and the gbank has been mostly stripped.

What the hell is going on with this shit? Nobody knew my account password, which was a series of 9 random alphanumerics. The computer I play WoW on visits no websites other than the Armory and hasn't in -months-.

I am pissed off.

(I also managed to remember my secret word, which is good. At least that went right.)

What's the general thing that happens with account hackings? Do people get their gear back? Do gbanks get refunded stuff that got ninja'd?

[idrisz]

you didn't use any gui Mod for WoW?

I know a couple people got their stuffs back, usually without enchantment at all on their armors or weapons, and take a week or two before Blizzard gave them their stuff back.

[Charles]

Well, if you don't patch your machine, might have been backdoored randomly. Or it could be an infected machine on your network, or someone else who used your machine did something bad.

Blizz can get most of your stuff back but I've heard that they often don't do the enchants, so you have to get it re-enchanted.

[Fugitive]

I recently discovered that a couple friends of mine have been hit, too. One of them is a Mac user, and I haven't heard of any keyloggers for them yet, her password is strong, and she hadn't given it to anyone, so she has no idea how they got her.

You should be able to get your gear restored if you talk to a GM. Don't know about guild banks, though.

[Charles]

you didn't use any gui Mod for WoW?

Add ons for WoW are executed in a protected LUA scripting language space. They can't do anything.

However, if you run an exe as part of the mod, then all bets are off. But LUA and images themselves are safe.

[Jag]

Thats sucks. Sorry to hear it.

[Horrible Oscar]

Our guild master got hacked a while back, losing all his items and cash along with around 50'000 gold in the guild bank, a tab full of flasks and a huge amount of crafting mats. In fact, the hacker chatted a little with the guild members while cleaning out everything, explaining how it happened (This was during the whole phishing thing), how much he was getting paid for it and how he understood it sucked, but hey, it's business. I wish I could find the screenshots again, it was a very strange experience.

It took a couple of weeks, but the guild bank got a full refund on cash and items and the character's personal stuff was all restored as well. I'm not sure if the items he got back were enchanted, but you'll definitely get back the important stuff if you're patient and firm with the GMs.

[Adam B]

=( Good luck, Aaron.

[Athryn]

I think that a lot of people get hacked by using the Wow forums on work machines. I won't even logon to the Wow forums anymore, they seriously need to have a separate username/pw for them, imo.

That really sucks though, I hope you get your shit back quickly. :(

you didn't use any gui Mod for WoW?

Please don't spread the misinformation that people can get hacked via mods, because they can't. People can get hacked via bad sites with mods, but not the mods themselves.

[idrisz]

yeah actually I was going to ask if he visited any of the mod sites in order to download them.

[AaronSofaer]

Well, if you don't patch your machine, might have been backdoored randomly. Or it could be an infected machine on your network, or someone else who used your machine did something bad.



My machine is fully patched up with Windows Update, fwiw, XP SP2.

The only mods I use are Ace and a couple others, but I haven't visited those other sites in over a month (speaking of which, I bet some of those mods have been updated) and I have never heard of anyone getting hacked through the WAU... though I suppose it's possible...

[ElGuapo]

Man, that sucks. For what it's worth, this never happens in Cryodiil.

[Derek French]

Please don't spread the misinformation that people can get hacked via mods, because they can't. People can get hacked via bad sites with mods, but not the mods themselves.
I was almost hacked once when I went to WoWUI and downloaded a mod. It was an .exe file, which was unusual, and it was a keylogger that was uploaded to that web site.

I don't believe that he was trying to spread misinfo, other than just warning people that yes, you can get hacked if you download and run a mod that was wrapped in an .exe.

[Fugitive]

I think that a lot of people get hacked by using the Wow forums on work machines. I won't even logon to the Wow forums anymore, they seriously need to have a separate username/pw for them, imo.
I checked with my friend and she admitted that that's entirely possible in her case. She works for Symantec, so of course they're not going to let her put any real virus protection on her machine...

[Tim James]

I once got rerolled in MajorMUD on a BBS because I lost connection one time and it dumped the last batch of keystrokes I made into a chat area while trying to set up a game of Doom. Someone saw my password and killed my character.

[Jon_Danger]

So I go to work this morning and check my email and see a password change notification that I definitely didn't do. Y'know what that means... I check the armory after emailing Billing, and yep, my Priest is naked, and the gbank has been mostly stripped.

What the hell is going on with this shit? Nobody knew my account password, which was a series of 9 random alphanumerics. The computer I play WoW on visits no websites other than the Armory and hasn't in -months-.

I am pissed off.

(I also managed to remember my secret word, which is good. At least that went right.)

What's the general thing that happens with account hackings? Do people get their gear back? Do gbanks get refunded stuff that got ninja'd?

This exact thing happened to me to, but I didn't get my account frozen until a couple days after.

I just went on armory now, and I checked my account... all my stuff is there. I am in a new guild, and I am now respecced into marksmanship

wtf?

[AaronSofaer]

and I am now respecced into marksmanship


Oh dear God NOOO.

:D

[Jon_Danger]

Oh dear God NOOO.

:D

I actually just sent the account retrieval fax.

What I don't get is that the idiot used a credit card. That card better have been stolen, or man he could get into some trouble.

[spence]

Yeah my account was hacked last week. I was sharing the account with my brother but both our computers were secure (up-to-date AV and all that). They deleted 2 of my 70s and transferred another. They also used my prot pally for farming shadow labs. I've since gotten everything back and made a level 1 character of the same name for a free name change. The only thing I didnt get back was 130 badges they spent on epic gems.

[VegasRobb]

That sucks. Hopefully Blizzard will come through.

[AndrewM]

So, how long before Blizzard allows optional hardware-based two-factor authentication?

[AaronSofaer]

A better question:

How long before changing your password requires confirmation via email?

That'd be nice...

[Anaxagoras]

Not too long ago, Flash (I think it was) had a security hole exposed, so maybe you didn't patch that up to date & got hacked that way? (You do use Flash when you look at the Armory, right?)

[Stroker Ace]

I think the armory and the forums are mostly JS. I imagine browsing the wow forums on an untrusted computer is an awfully common attack vector.

[AaronSofaer]

I don't browse the wow forums, ever. Just a cesspit.

[Stroker Ace]

https://www.insideoutshop.de/images/IvoryTowerBeyond72dpi.jpg

I use them to keep up with the times. Sure there is a better signal to noise ratio at EJ and the SA goon forums etc but there's still value to be found in the WoW forums if you want to get the pulse of a class's community.

[Kareem]

What class community pulse? Besides the stickied threads they're essentially composed of nerfing petitions to other classes, buffing petitions to the class whose forum it is, and threads about rerolling because apparently Blizzard sucks.

This is common to all class forums.

[AaronSofaer]

Why would I want to be up-to-date on a class community?

The only info I care about is how to better play my class, and frankly, the WoW forums aren't going to teach me much on that score.

[Athryn]

I use them to keep up with the times. Sure there is a better signal to noise ratio at EJ and the SA goon forums etc but there's still value to be found in the WoW forums if you want to get the pulse of a class's community.

I used to, but I've found that Wowinsider, plus the multitude of blogs that are out there, keep me better informed. Plus, I can just stick em all in my RSS reader.

[Stroker Ace]

I imagine that once you narrow your perspective to the pinhole of optimized raiding there's not much to be gleaned from the official forums.

For general tips and tricks as well as spec innovations I find the official forums as good a place as any to see what's going on.

That said, I don't have any of the more respected wow aggregating news sites or blogs on my reading list. (Edit: It's like Athryn read my mind!)

[LesJarvis]

While not a good source of information, the forums are sometimes amusing, particularly when the legion of trolls gets creative. I enjoy them as a way to kill a few minutes, anyway.

[Skipper]

Aaron I'm really sorry to hear that bud, that sucks. For what it's worth you just made me paranoid enough to change all my passwords.

I would agree that the forums might have provided a vector, as well as possibly the same account name / password combo used in any other location, like a website for instance.

Other than that is there anyone in guild or family that has your account info? Though they might not have done the deed, they could have provided the method of attack without your knowledge, or their own.

[Ranulf]

I sense great irony that google or whatever ad banner that is at the top of the QT3 forum is showing me this ad:
"WoW Stat Changer. FREE Trial! Download now. www.worldofwarcraftHacks.net"

[AaronSofaer]

Time from login until restoration of all three of my gear sets (still enchanted and gemmed) and my Runed Eternium Rod...

... bout five minutes.

I'm impressed. If the specialist that's going to deal with the Guild bank issues and the gold / gems / badges is as fast and/or respectful as the GM I worked with, this will be a nice easy thing.

[Lunch of Kong]

Time from login until restoration of all three of my gear sets (still enchanted and gemmed) and my Runed Eternium Rod...

... bout five minutes.

I'm impressed. If the specialist that's going to deal with the Guild bank issues and the gold / gems / badges is as fast and/or respectful as the GM I worked with, this will be a nice easy thing.

Okay, but if you still have the backdoor/keylogger/virus whatever still on your system, then the criminals still have access to your new password.

You don't know how they got your details, so the only way to be sure is to repartition/reformat your hard drive, and install EVERYTHING from scratch.

I know people who were hacked two or even three times in a row. Each time, they would take the items the GMs had restored.

[idrisz]

I don't see how they get away with taking your stuff, they have to either transfer to another toon or sell and transfer the gold.

Blizzard would keep track of those type of transaction, so they can easily recover all the item transferred after checking the logs.

[Pogo]

I don't see how they get away with taking your stuff, they have to either transfer to another toon or sell and transfer the gold.

Blizzard would keep track of those type of transaction, so they can easily recover all the item transferred after checking the logs.

Unfortunately the system they use to track things is very private. Nobody really knows how Blizzard bans or deals with the gold that is transferred. I'd be interested to know how exactly this happens.

[AaronSofaer]

Okay, but if you still have the backdoor/keylogger/virus whatever still on your system, then the criminals still have access to your new password.

You don't know how they got your details, so the only way to be sure is to repartition/reformat your hard drive, and install EVERYTHING from scratch.

I know people who were hacked two or even three times in a row. Each time, they would take the items the GMs had restored.


I reformatted my HD, it was bout time anyway. :) It had been too long since I'd formatted regardless. I need to reformat my laptop, too, soon enough.

[Pogo]

I reformatted my HD, it was bout time anyway. :) It had been too long since I'd formatted regardless. I need to reformat my laptop, too, soon enough.

Hope you saved the 800 megabytes worth of patches it takes to bring WoW up to date!

[AaronSofaer]

Hope you saved the 800 megabytes worth of patches it takes to bring WoW up to date!


On my laptop, yes. :)

[Sol Invictus]

Our guild master got hacked a while back, losing all his items and cash along with around 50'000 gold in the guild bank, a tab full of flasks and a huge amount of crafting mats. In fact, the hacker chatted a little with the guild members while cleaning out everything, explaining how it happened (This was during the whole phishing thing), how much he was getting paid for it and how he understood it sucked, but hey, it's business. I wish I could find the screenshots again, it was a very strange experience.
Yeah, same thing happened to a friend of mine. I wasn't there to experience it, but it's pretty annoying how these fucks think it's just 'business' to fuck someone else over and expect people not to take it personally. Of course you're going to take it personally. It's as personal as rummaging through someone's wallet while you're talking to them tied up and helpless. Such bullshit.

Aaron, I hope you get your stuff back.

[calvin940]

My account was hacked about 18 months ago. It wasn't what lead to me canceling my sub (my raiding obligations were so time consuming that I had little time for anything else so I was getting tired of it), but it sure was the straw.

First ticket issued, communicated with GM, said it's in the queue. 1 Week went by, 2 weeks went by. I issued another ticket for status, turns out original request somehow never filed.

Re-filed, another 2 weeks, still nothing. Issued a 3rd ticket, was told my request for restoration was there but somehow never addressed. A few days after that my characters were back, but all gold gone (probably about 2500g - back in the days of non-easy gold farming I might add)

My main raid character had most of the epic stuff from raids except boots missing. My other characters never got back their original items, banks were left mostly empty (ie, no ore, mats, anything else), all my engineering items like jumper cables, gadget transporter, tonnes of other stuff, not restored.

My 60 alt (not used much for raiding) had some blues and 2 epics (one dropped, the other I bought) were returned, but the blues were gone replaced with greens.

A couple of my alts in 50's basically got these generic gear items instead of the ones they got. I had a fair amount of blues on both of those and now were all replaced with greens. In fact, both my priest and mage were outfittred with the same generic gear items exactly.

At the time, I cared very little at that point because I was already pissed off at WoW time anyhow and just was waiting for restoration before cancelling.

Having joined back up a couple months ago, was irritated initially with the horrible support experience, but given the level of greens and quest rewards in BC, it wasn't as bad as it could have been but still I feel like Blizzard simply had the attitude of not really providing me the level of restoration I felt they should have (and was possible).

Sounds like you are already well on your way to getting your account back to where it was. I wish you well in that.

[olaf]

So, how long before Blizzard allows optional hardware-based two-factor authentication?

Honestly I expected them to do this by now. RSA tokens are dirt cheap in bulk and they have to be spending ENORMOUS amounts of time/resources trying to fix all of this shit. A lot of people would probably pay for the token themselves if Blizzard would only offer it.

[Balasarius]

Re: WAU

A few people in my guild were hacked with WAU. WAU is written in .net, I believe, and it runs a banner ad at the bottom. Since it's written in .net, it calls the super-secure IE for that banner ad.

And yes, one day, it had a keylogger.

WAU pulled the ad, and they did something to their banners. I don't know what, because the first thing I did was edit the properties of IE to add *.wowace.com to the list of restricted sites.

I use FireFox with NoScript for browsing.

[Lorini]

I use FireFox with NoScript for browsing.

Curious; would NoScript have helped with the Flash vulnerability that was found about a month ago? NoScript is a pain, no question, and I was wondering exactly what it can stop. I've solved my WoW keylogger problem by not playing WoW anymore; problems like this certainly contributed to the decision.

[Athryn]

Curious; would NoScript have helped with the Flash vulnerability that was found about a month ago?

Yes, unless of course you enable an infected Flash app manually.

My account was hacked about 18 months ago. It wasn't what lead to me canceling my sub (my raiding obligations were so time consuming that I had little time for anything else so I was getting tired of it), but it sure was the straw.

They've changed their policies greatly since then, mainly (unfortunately) due to the sheer amount of hacking that happens. Items are restored much more quickly, and completely.

[roboczar]

Yeah, same thing happened to a friend of mine. I wasn't there to experience it, but it's pretty annoying how these fucks think it's just 'business' to fuck someone else over and expect people not to take it personally. Of course you're going to take it personally. It's as personal as rummaging through someone's wallet while you're talking to them tied up and helpless. Such bullshit.

Aaron, I hope you get your stuff back.

Well, what I'm pretty sure he means is that they aren't specifically singling their victim out because they have some kind of grudge or are doing it out of sheer malice. It's just them trying to make a buck off of inattention and sometimes idiocy. I would be unhappy and feel like I had been betrayed, but you can't fault them for trying to make money. You can disagree with it as a moral act, but we all gotta get paid, son.

[idrisz]

but you can't fault them for trying to make money. You can disagree with it as a moral act, but we all gotta get paid, son.

WTH..

Are you telling me if someone break into your house and hold you at gun point and take all of your money, you wouldn't blame them because they are just trying to make some money?

Woo, I know who's neighborhood I should avoid now.

[Tankero]

This is about to tumble into the "Gold as currency" argument.

So let's give it a push!

You didn't really "lose" anything if you didn't lose access to your account. You had some 1s set to 0, sure, but you got those back after (what it seems) like a brief wait. The net effect this had on you was wasting your time.

Of course, it was a violation of your privacy, but past that no one threatened your property or your life. That is, at least until they steal your credit card number as well. Going to those figurative lengths isn't really necessary (idrisz).

It'd be funny, though, if people in RP servers play this out as part of their characters; this the WoW equivalent of being a Tijuana-style organ donor.

[roboczar]

WTH..

Are you telling me if someone break into your house and hold you at gun point and take all of your money, you wouldn't blame them because they are just trying to make some money?

Woo, I know who's neighborhood I should avoid now.

Nah, we're talking about two different things here. You want to blame them for the actual act, which I agree with. It's a crime and should be punished. What I'm saying is that you can't blame them for carrying out the act as a way of earning income. Theft is a logically valid, if morally wrong and illegal way to earn money. They aren't doing it because they want to cause you personal pain and anguish. They need to eat too, they just chose a morally reprehensible and illegal way to do so.

[idrisz]

Of course, it was a violation of your privacy, but past that no one threatened your property or your life. That is, at least until they steal your credit card number as well. Going to those figurative lengths isn't really necessary (idrisz).

If someone rob my apartment, I have renter's insurances, so I eventually will get everything back as well, but does it mean I shouldn't be mad at the person who robbed me because they are just trying to make a buck at my expense and it's nothing personal??

[roboczar]

If someone rob my apartment, I have renter's insurances, so I eventually will get everything back as well, but does it mean I shouldn't be mad at the person who robbed me because they are just trying to make a buck at my expense and it's nothing personal??

Well, being human it's only natural you'd feel betrayed. If someone came and stole all my crap, I'd be pretty upset for a long time, and probably depressed afterward. But blaming the guy who did it isn't productive or even logically sound. The right reaction is to figure out how he exploited you and not make the same mistake later.

[idrisz]

Well, being human it's only natural you'd feel betrayed. If someone came and stole all my crap, I'd be pretty upset for a long time, and probably depressed afterward. But blaming the guy who did it isn't productive or even logically sound. The right reaction is to figure out how he exploited you and not make the same mistake later.

Actually, after I got robbed in Orlando, I decided that maybe it's a good time to buy a gun. Yes I hold a grudge..

[roboczar]

Actually, after I got robbed in Orlando, I decided that maybe it's a good time to buy a gun. Yes I hold a grudge..

And that's how you decided to deal with it. I can get behind that. But you can't be all like 'argh that guy was totally out to make my life hell and cause me no end of problems', because (made up number) 95% of the time, it's business as usual for him.

[Tankero]

If someone rob my apartment, I have renter's insurances, so I eventually will get everything back as well, but does it mean I shouldn't be mad at the person who robbed me because they are just trying to make a buck at my expense and it's nothing personal??

No, my point is that these things are not equivalent because there is no net "loss" here. If someone takes your property, i.e. your stuff, and someone else gives you money to buy MORE stuff, you did have a loss that you passed along to the insurance company. In the case of WoW accounts, there was no "stuff" in the first place. Yes, the account was your property and you briefly lost control of it, but you still recovered your account without having to get a new one.

This, as an aside, is different from losing control of your bank account, because THAT account was representative of currency. You cannot 'withdraw' your Tier 5 from anywhere.

Now then, settings were changed in your account, which is what "gear" really amounts to, and these settings got reversed by your system administrator, you were never robbed of anything as far as the definition of property is concerned. If you believe you were robbed, you are buying into the fantasy and projecting the value of property onto those settings when, in fact, they were never any such thing to begin with.

[Pogo]

Re: WAU

A few people in my guild were hacked with WAU. WAU is written in .net, I believe, and it runs a banner ad at the bottom. Since it's written in .net, it calls the super-secure IE for that banner ad.

And yes, one day, it had a keylogger.

WAU pulled the ad, and they did something to their banners. I don't know what, because the first thing I did was edit the properties of IE to add *.wowace.com to the list of restricted sites.

I use FireFox with NoScript for browsing.

You have proof for this? If I ask the guys in #WoWace am I going to get 50 people confirming this?

It's not that I don't believe it, but it'd seem to take quite some effort and a little sophistication to target the WAU specifically.

[calvin940]

No, my point is that these things are not equivalent because there is no net "loss" here. If someone takes your property, i.e. your stuff, and someone else gives you money to buy MORE stuff, you did have a loss that you passed along to the insurance company. In the case of WoW accounts, there was no "stuff" in the first place. Yes, the account was your property and you briefly lost control of it, but you still recovered your account without having to get a new one.

If they restore everything, there is no net loss. If everything isn't restored, then my labour (time and effort) to acquire those things has now been lost. My time is money, friend (I assume you get the joke) and as such has value to me and hence I did lose something.

[beloved one]

Well, tier 5, and stuff in general, IS withdrawable. I mean that it can be transfered into real currency, that's exactly what the thieves are doing.

You can say, but Blizzard just restores the "stuff", so it's never gone. However, a) the "stuff" is transferable into hard currency, and b) Blizzard choses not to sell gold/items itself, therefore Blizzard must value the integrity of their virtual stuff (and their brand name) even more than the value they would recieve from selling "stuff" themselves.

Therefore, the thieves are robbing blizzard of the money invested into their integrity (in the form of wasted advertising, goodwill, pissed off customers -- as can be seen from the straw that broke the camel's back example above), just as a credit card thief is robbing the insurance company.

[Tankero]

The thieves can do that transference not due to any inherent value of the information contained in the account; what they do is find people that project that value onto things that don't have it in the first place. In the end, what they are doing is stealing your time, if you don't recover everything completely, but that still doesn't classify those settings into property.

In a roundabout way, you're victims of fraud, not theft.

Coming around on the time-is-money joke, it is in this particular instance; the thieves aren't doing anything other than taking a short-cut, yielding what usually takes months to produce in mere hours or minutes, piggybacking off of someone who acquired those settings legitimately.

Beloved is right, the crime isn't against the player, it's against Blizzard itself. It also isn't regarding physical property. In this case, it's intellectual in nature.

[notatiger]

what they do is find people that project that value onto things that don't have it in the first place.

American dollars have no value, we all simply project value onto them. No different than loot. Your distinction between fraud and theft isn't useful here, since the fraud was a manner of committing the theft.

[Tankero]

Apparently, a definition of value must be established. Oh joy.

On the matter of theft: This is the same as opening one of your books and finding all the pages blank. The book wasn't stolen, but its contents are gone. What crime is this?

[Stroker Ace]

Bad analogies are like... (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22bad+analogies+are+like%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&safe=active)

[Joe O'Malley]

I worry about this. My fiance likes to play WoW on the laptop. The problem is, she's not a very careful intarweb user. I'm forever catching viruses and adware on that machine from all the unsolicited email she really shouldn't be opening. I have a suspicion that if i get nailed by a keylogger, that might be where it comes from.

I hope everything woroks out okay for you Aron, and with a minimum of fuss.

[Stroker Ace]

Split her off onto a new account if you're that worried, Joe. You can probably get it done for $75 counting the new box plus a transfer.

[salwon]

It's been a while since I've played, but how does this work exactly from the scammer's end? He gets on you character and just vendors all your stuff? How much gold can you get that way? Or is it the mats and whatnot that then go on the AH that are the value?

And then, how much of the gold that's sold through farming operations actually come from scams like this? Or is this some "LOL HAXORED~!" kid sitting in his parent's basement trying to get a free ride?

[Pogo]

It's been a while since I've played, but how does this work exactly from the scammer's end? He gets on you character and just vendors all your stuff? How much gold can you get that way? Or is it the mats and whatnot that then go on the AH that are the value?
I imagine anything that's Soulbound will be vendored or, if the character has enchanting, it will be disenchanted. The money and any materials worth selling on the auction house go to a mule through a trade window and my guess is that at that point it's distributed to more accounts for selling on the auction house.
And then, how much of the gold that's sold through farming operations actually come from scams like this? Or is this some "LOL HAXORED~!" kid sitting in his parent's basement trying to get a free ride?

This is a pretty big operation, and I don't know if the gold selling sites use this as their primary method. It seems very risky and easy to get accounts banned and traced back to each other. Also, farming should be extremely easy in TBC.

However, the weird thing about this is that I really don't see any farmers at all. Even though I'm on two different PvP servers, there is nobody around anymore that is obviously farming like there used to be in, say, Burning Steppes or Tyr's Hand in EPL. I've seen one farmer that was a hunter using a bot to farm the ogres in Deadwind Pass and that's pretty much it. Yet you can order 1000g for $15-$20 on my realm.

Maybe the real farming operations are the characters that mix in flawlessly with everyone else, just doing dailies?

[Tankero]

Clean out whatever the character has access to. The mats go to other AH characters that underprice the mats slightly to move them out quickly, then the gold flows to bank characters that hold it until its bought.

Keep in mind that gold-sellers can be brokers themselves. They buy the gold off of the scammers and farmers alike.

[salwon]

Maybe the real farming operations are the characters that mix in flawlessly with everyone else, just doing dailies?

I never minded those guys - sure they didn't speak any english, but they knew how to play their classes.

[Pogo]

Clean out whatever the character has access to. The mats go to other AH characters that underprice the mats slightly to move them out quickly, then the gold flows to bank characters that hold it until its bought.

Keep in mind that gold-sellers can be brokers themselves. They buy the gold off of the scammers and farmers alike.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, and I also know people that do sell gold to resellers, although the actual real-world equivalent of this is about minimum wage. He justified it however by saying that he's essentially getting untaxed minimum wage to sit on his ass and play WoW.

[Tankero]

Also, I don't think the trade window is used at all; it has to work through the AH by selling common-unusual items. Single candles, hundreds of them, sold for a few gold at a time back and forth. Trade windows are much, much easier to track than auctions, after all.

[scotthal]

It's not that I don't believe it, but it'd seem to take quite some effort and a little sophistication to target the WAU specifically.

Based on the description it sounds more like run-of-the-mill ad banner poisoning than any direct targetting of WAU. WAU (via IE) just happened to be the entry vector for the poisoned ads.

[Hanacker]

Maybe the real farming operations are the characters that mix in flawlessly with everyone else, just doing dailies?

I've heard you can make a ton 5-boxing all the dailies that don't require separate drops for each party member. Of course if you do that for a full time job, it's going to require a ridiculous amount of level 70 characters.

[jeffd]

Maybe the real farming operations are the characters that mix in flawlessly with everyone else, just doing dailies?

Dailies do seem to be the most efficient way of getting money at this point. My buddy says he can get ~100g in an hour doing them (I've only done the QD dailies once myself).

[Hanacker]

Dailies do seem to be the most efficient way of getting money at this point. My buddy says he can get ~100g in an hour doing them (I've only done the QD dailies once myself).

You can get more than that farming if you know the right spots, don't have much competition, and are immune to soul-crushing boredom.

[Stroker Ace]

You can get more than that farming if you know the right spots, don't have much competition, and are immune to soul-crushing boredom.
http://schlagging.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/orly.jpg

I might be immune to boredom, hints please!

[Athryn]

I might be immune to boredom, hints please!

The summoners at Legion Hold.

[idrisz]

do people farm primals for money? I know I was doing that for a bit for epic flying mount.

[TheTrunkDr]

do people farm primals for money? I know I was doing that for a bit for epic flying mount.
Not so much anymore. I need some Primals and I can barely find them on the AH anymore and they're way overpriced when they. I've been forced to farm them and it fucking sucks so much!

[Supertanker]

Try Kunzite's Gold Guide: How I Made 100,000 Gold (http://www.mmorpgs.com/Kunzite/guide/guide.php?pageid=19) It has a whole section about farming various spots & rates of gold earned.

[Anaxagoras]

do people farm primals for money? I know I was doing that for a bit for epic flying mount.

I've found that the mote drop rate seems to be too low to make it worth doing. I kill elementals whenever I pass by them, but I'm not sure it's a good use of time if that's all you're doing.

Also, the boredom is, indeed, soul-crushing.

[idrisz]

no, I remember I was farming wind elementals out some zones, I can get 3-4 primal an hour using a mage.

but that was before I started working. Now days I rather just buy some gold off IGE or something.

[Pogo]

Primal Fire are pretty easy to farm and are about 30g-35g a pop at the moment. Don't forget that you will get vendor trash (or disenchantable) greens, the occasional good/bad blue, and lots of elemental fragments which vendor for something like 3g a stack.

Nothing beats the gold per hour of an efficient daily quest route though. If you have decent (Kara-level) gear then you should be able to get about 200g within 2 and a half hours or less (including vendor trash). This is comparable to the 3-4 primal fires you would get per hour so it seems to work out.

[wildpokerman]

Why doesn't WOW just put a couple common sense trading limits on the accounts. Like only transfering 100 gold to other people in a day, only selling one unique item a day, something like that.

I mean if they want to shut down gold trading and scamming and account hacking this would seem a reasonable way to do it.

Maybe for someone who's quitting WOW and "giving" all their stuff away you could call customer service and authorize it with offline verifiers or something.

Can someone explain a legit reason that someone would give away mass amounts of gold or items in a day?

The skeptical side of me says that gold farmers and item sellers pay them enough in subscription fees that they really don't want to stop it.

[Fugitive]

Can someone explain a legit reason that someone would give away mass amounts of gold or items in a day?
Alt characters acting as banks? Someone who does a lot of crafting? Someone who does a lot of trading on behalf of the guild? Someone making a purchase of a really high-end item? There's plenty of legitimate reasons people might engage in transactions of an even larger scale than the typical stripped account.

[wildpokerman]

You don't have to have the limit between trading within the same account. Also does crafting require that you trade in a mountain of rare items on a regular basis? Why not make trading items go through the auction house an inconveneince if you're far afield and someone has 100 rare silks or whatever WOW has but you could make it like E-bay where you can agree on a private auction and the seller lists the item next time he's near the AH and you buy it?

I can see that it would add some inconvenience to the life of some players but ask
I know enchanting does require you to burn some items but ask Aaron or anyone else who has posted here about a hacked account how convenieint the current system is.

[Tankero]

The trade window is not how the gold-sellers do business, it's the auction house. Direct transfers of gold without that middle step DO raise red flags for the GMs.

[Skipper]

You don't have to have the limit between trading within the same account. Also does crafting require that you trade in a mountain of rare items on a regular basis? Why not make trading items go through the auction house an inconveneince if you're far afield and someone has 100 rare silks or whatever WOW has but you could make it like E-bay where you can agree on a private auction and the seller lists the item next time he's near the AH and you buy it?

I can see that it would add some inconvenience to the life of some players but ask
I know enchanting does require you to burn some items but ask Aaron or anyone else who has posted here about a hacked account how convenieint the current system is.

I understand your suggestions are trying to help. But as a paying customer being completely honest ... I hope Blizzard finds a way to fix things without even MORE inconveniences to the player. An hour on non account emails. An hour on auction sales. Extensive logging on auctions, trades and emails. None of these have helped. And to be honest, it's the player who does not break the rules (the overwhelming majority) who gets the shaft with more and more inconveniences.

So really, suggest away, but please can we try to target the problem more directly and not throw things that grief the players even more? So far those haven't worked at all. This problem is directly related to people logging in to your account who are not supposed to have access. Fixing that should be simpler than preventing sales of items or trades by a player.

[Athryn]

So really, suggest away, but please can we try to target the problem more directly and not throw things that grief the players even more? So far those haven't worked at all. This problem is directly related to people logging in to your account who are not supposed to have access. Fixing that should be simpler than preventing sales of items or trades by a player.

I think they should try doing a different kind of login like banks do, one that requires identifying a photo key. I also seriously think they need to have a separate login for their forums from the game.

[Skipper]

I think they should try doing a different kind of login like banks do, one that requires identifying a photo key. I also seriously think they need to have a separate login for their forums from the game.

I completely agree on the forum login/password split. The first one might take some work. Honestly though if they offered something like a fob or key to old customers via a small charge I would gladly pay for one for each of my accounts. Of course they would have to change new copies as well and I'm assuming there are a lot on the shelf already.

Whatever they do though they need to have something changed before the expansion, when hacking will become an even bigger problem due to the popularity resurgence of the game.

[AndrewM]

I also seriously think they need to have a separate login for their forums from the game.

Yeah, Lord of the Rings Online does that. It seems like such an easy thing to do, and it would help cut off one area of weakness.

[Anaxagoras]

Can someone explain a legit reason that someone would give away mass amounts of gold or items in a day?


I "give" away a couple thousand gold to friends on a fairly regular basis so that they can get their elite flying mounts. Getting their elite flying mounts means they can earn money faster, so it's a pretty safe loan: I give them 2 or 3 thousand gold, and they repay the loan in 500 gold chunks. As soon as I gather 2 thousand gold again (from repaid loans or from dailies) I loan out another 2000 or so.

[AaronSofaer]

Also does crafting require that you trade in a mountain of rare items on a regular basis?


Many high-level crafted items are hundreds if not thousands of gold's worth of materials.

The very highest level crafted items are worth maybe 20k (20,000) gold.

[wildpokerman]

Wow guys, I had no idea that the economy at high levels was like that.

I stopped at level 30 with about 5 gold in my pocket. I had no idea of the magnitude of the high level game.

Maybe my bright idea isn't really that bright. It's like asking how you keep high rolling poker players from getting robbed. Stopping the cash flow would stop a bit of the action.

[Ranulf]

The summoners at Legion Hold.

Hush, I have 3 toons I have to farm aldor rep for eventually... if I could stand the insanity.

[Skipper]

Wow guys, I had no idea that the economy at high levels was like that.

I stopped at level 30 with about 5 gold in my pocket. I had no idea of the magnitude of the high level game.

Maybe my bright idea isn't really that bright. It's like asking how you keep high rolling poker players from getting robbed. Stopping the cash flow would stop a bit of the action.

Good news though, in the upcoming patch you could get your first mount at level 30.

The high gold stuff really doesn't become a problem until level 70 at which time you start to get into the race toward your first and then upgraded flying mounts, then a cycle of better high level equipment and enchants for that equipment.

[Sebmojo]

So really, suggest away, but please can we try to target the problem more directly and not throw things that grief the players even more? So far those haven't worked at all. This problem is directly related to people logging in to your account who are not supposed to have access. Fixing that should be simpler than preventing sales of items or trades by a player.

The email confirmation before password change would be a reasonable first step.

[Becoming]

Many high-level crafted items are hundreds if not thousands of gold's worth of materials.

The very highest level crafted items are worth maybe 20k (20,000) gold.

Such as? I can't think of anything anywhere near that region of cost. I've bought mats for some items and nothing approaches more than 1-2k tops that I've seen...

[Athryn]

Such as? I can't think of anything anywhere near that region of cost. I've bought mats for some items and nothing approaches more than 1-2k tops that I've seen...

Depending on server economy and such, some of the materials for the BT/Sunwell crafting patterns can cost that much.

Plus, there are guild that will charge 5k+ for things like ZA Bear Mount runs.

[Sol Invictus]

I'm getting back into WoW, after reading this thread (the account theft notwithstanding) and playing a bit of Warcraft 3. Are there any new servers I should play on, since I have zero interest in resuming my old characters, or am I better off starting on one of the older servers with some help from you guys?

Oh yeah, I was wondering if there were any mods I should grab. I haven't played in almost two years now.

[Athryn]

I'm getting back into WoW, after reading this thread (the account theft notwithstanding) and playing a bit of Warcraft 3. Are there any new servers I should play on, since I have zero interest in resuming my old characters, or am I better off starting on one of the older servers with some help from you guys?

Oh yeah, I was wondering if there were any mods I should grab. I haven't played in almost two years now.

No brand new servers that I can think of, so if you like Alliance, you should come to Moonrunner and join the Drop Bears (http://dropbearsguild.garoun.net/forum/index.php).

As far as addons, head over to files.wowace.com, and pick up Cartographer, FuBar, Bartender (if you like bar mods.) Those are some good ones I can think of off the top of my head. If you do end up on Moonrunner, look me up, I always have a few gold jingling in my pocket for newbies.

[AaronSofaer]

Such as? I can't think of anything anywhere near that region of cost. I've bought mats for some items and nothing approaches more than 1-2k tops that I've seen...


Loops of Forged Power on my server go for about 20k; there's only one person who can hook you up with one but he can usually get one for you within a week or so. That's obviously the most expensive one.

Some numbers being thrown about as standing offers for the first Sunfire Robes pattern for sale are also in the 20k range.

[Skipper]

I'm getting back into WoW, after reading this thread ...

Don't feel bad. I did the same thing. At first I was just "checking my accounts to make sure nothing has happened to my stuff." That of course turned into making 3 levels over the weekend on my hunter alt.

I feel like Amy Winehouse not being able to say no to the crack pipe.

[TheTrunkDr]

So I had the lovely experience of getting my account hacked this past weekend. Sold everything they could and yanked damn near everything from my guild's bank as well. Good news is I have most everything back, with enchants and gems. They've even sent me most (if not all) of my guild's bank contents, though I haven't had much time to go through all of it.

The restore was quick but I'm still missing a few things, Badges, gold and a few primals are the only thing I've noticed so far. Virus scan of my comp found a few things and have since been cleaned.

Anyone know if gold/badges are likely to be returned? I didn't have much gold but I had a ton of badges that I had plans for.

[Skipper]

I forgot to mention that one guildmate who was hacked mentioned he thought his attack was due to a trojan being installed after opening a PDF with unpatched Adobe reader.

[AaronSofaer]

The restore was quick but I'm still missing a few things, Badges, gold and a few primals are the only thing I've noticed so far. Virus scan of my comp found a few things and have since been cleaned.

Anyone know if gold/badges are likely to be returned? I didn't have much gold but I had a ton of badges that I had plans for.



I got an email today from a character restoration specialist (or was it yesterday?) with a new list of items that had just been restored; badges were included, as were primals and gems.

I think the original restoration (the one they do in-game ASAP) is just your gear, so that you can get playing again; they should still restore everything.

[Joe O'Malley]

Split her off onto a new account if you're that worried, Joe. You can probably get it done for $75 counting the new box plus a transfer.

I have her on a separate account. The issue is that we both like to use the laptop. So she might get a keylogger on it and then I'll get caught when I use the machine.

I am being pretty careful. It's just that extra factor, y'know.

[TheTrunkDr]

I got an email today from a character restoration specialist (or was it yesterday?) with a new list of items that had just been restored; badges were included, as were primals and gems.

I think the original restoration (the one they do in-game ASAP) is just your gear, so that you can get playing again; they should still restore everything.
I've already gotten a follow up email saying they think they got everything on the first pass. I've replied and told them what I was missing. Hopefully they'll go back and be able to restore a few more things. I didn't have much gold (only like 300 or so) but I did have a bunch of badges and various primals that I had plans for. So I hope to get those at a minimum.

[WarrenM]

I can't imagine Blizzard doesn't know exactly what you had and didn't have. Doesn't this thing run on a database? Can't they simply run a query?

[Stroker Ace]

They probably have the data but that doesn't mean their CSRs have the wherewithal to see the full inventory from given point in time.

I have no idea what their backup/rollback strategies are like, eh?

[idrisz]

They probably have the data but that doesn't mean their CSRs have the wherewithal to see the full inventory from given point in time.

I have no idea what their backup/rollback strategies are like, eh?

send query to database manager with character name and server?

[TheTrunkDr]

I can't imagine Blizzard doesn't know exactly what you had and didn't have. Doesn't this thing run on a database? Can't they simply run a query?
I agree, it does seem strange, I guess the issue could be a question of when the account was comprised, but that shouldn't be too difficult to discern, it's when my character started selling all his crap. A coworker and I were musing about reasons they might not do a roll back and perhaps it's just technically too difficult for a single character or can't be done while the game is live.

The way they do a restore is to just mail you all the items back, in this case I had several pages of mail since that included a ton of my guild's bank items also. I suppose things like enchants and gems in gear could be problematic as they're modifiers, though I got my gear back with the appropriate enchants/gems. Perhaps timing is another issue. The server might keep a live more detailed log of what's gone on, somewhat like a more in depth buy back page you see on vendors. Perhaps if you catch it within say 24 or 48 hours maybe they're able to restore them via this possible GM buy back feature which seems plausible and perhaps easier than doing a rollback.

I'm more curious if they're able to track down who did it and remove the stolen items from the game. This is probably much more difficult depending on what the thief did with them. If they auctioned them they could have been sold to a legitimate player and it doesn't seem fair to deprive them of it as it's all just virtual and the seller can have their profit removed rather than affecting an unsuspecting (and paying) player.

[ElGuapo]

Not to be snarky . . . but how come every time there is a discussion about WoW its about how to get gold/items or the economy, or leveling and not stories about cool combat/fun quests and such?

Is the game really that centered around grinding for items?

I've obviously heard a lot about it, just wondering why its so addicting and so many people play it.

[Tankero]

Combat in MOOs strikes me as well withing the 'you had to have been there' category. Besides that, the only real fun there is to be had from PvE is derived from the size of the numbers that pop up.

I don't think there's any hard-core PvPers here, so...

[Fugitive]

Not to be snarky . . . but how come every time there is a discussion about WoW its about how to get gold/items or the economy, or leveling and not stories about cool combat/fun quests and such?

Is the game really that centered around grinding for items?

I've obviously heard a lot about it, just wondering why its so addicting and so many people play it.
We've probably all been through pretty much the same sets of quests, so it's not really like we have much new or exciting to tell each other. Most of that happens in places like guild chat, when members are reaching things for the first time. (e.g., doing quests in Nagrand, someone says on guild chat "wtf? HE'S HITTING ME WITH A TOTEM POLE!", everyone else giggles knowingly)

[Athryn]

Not to be snarky . . . but how come every time there is a discussion about WoW its about how to get gold/items or the economy, or leveling and not stories about cool combat/fun quests and such?

Is the game really that centered around grinding for items?

I've obviously heard a lot about it, just wondering why its so addicting and so many people play it.

I guess you never read my patch threads. :P Or the thread on Raiding/Guild Drama we had.

And some of that probably has to do with the players on this board, who somewhat lend themselves towards the powergamer end of the spectrum.

[ElGuapo]

Yeah, I guess that's right. Guild drama is a big part of it, I'm sure. Also, Fugitives reply makes sense. The game has been out forever and with people playing it so much the quest talk has been there, done that. What's left is maximizing your character with gold/items.

Maybe someday I'll try an MMO. I just don't want to get addicted! (whimper)

[Skipper]

I think they must have gotten angry a while ago with all the WoW threads. For the most part now I keep things to myself about it unless there is some new related thread on it ElGuapo.

But for it's game type, it's extremely fun and addictive to play. Constantly driving that "one more quest" or "I'll just make the next level and I'll log out" type of play style. And that's just the leveling piece. The PvP and high end raid additions have even more play style choices.

[Kareem]

Yeah, I guess that's right. Guild drama is a big part of it, I'm sure. Also, Fugitives reply makes sense. The game has been out forever and with people playing it so much the quest talk has been there, done that. What's left is maximizing your character with gold/items.

Maybe someday I'll try an MMO. I just don't want to get addicted! (whimper)

No don't, really. Part of what you say shows why it descends into such drudgery and boredom. Really, when all you're left with is maximizing your character with gold and items, and that is where you derive all your enjoyment, that's your cue to quit.

I'm not saying loot shouldn't be a factor in your enjoyment. Part of the fun is dressing up your character in epic loot. But I think Tankero is wrong. When WoW launched there were a lot of threads about fun, unique situations in WoW that people enjoyed sharing. Like a thread Rywill started about playing a rogue in Loch Modan or when they were playing instances without healers and so on.

Today, WoW threads here, even ones about new content, unanimously devolve into perfecting spec choices, how many foozles to fondle before the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal becomes vulnerable to ice bolts, and the ideal class make-up for fighting Hannibal. I'm just baffled by why people persist when the game becomes a pure numbers and stats booster for them. I guess this is a slam against power gamers in general - so be it.

WoW is a fantastic game - play it to the level cap, then quit.

Once you stop being entertained by the gameplay but you hungrily seek the next carrot, you're addicted. It's an easy litmus test.

[LesJarvis]

I'm just baffled by why people persist when the game becomes a pure numbers and stats booster for them. I guess this is a slam against power gamers in general - so be it.

I am likewise baffled at those who, four years on, continue to hold up their way of playing WoW as the One True Way. Wow accommodates a wide variety of playstyles, so people enjoy it for a wide variety of reasons, and in my experience most people enjoy it on more than one level.

Anyway, the reason "people persist when the game becomes a pure numbers and stats booster for them" is because they enjoy solving that min/max puzzle, or the social aspect or organizing raids, or they like WoW's PVP model, or whatever. Even your description clearly indicates that you're missing the point. You may not enjoy those things, and it's totally valid for you to not enjoy them, but your experience is irrelevant to those who do.

[beloved one]

People like speculating about optimal item builds, class setups, and just how many foozles to fozzle. These enjoyments are just not as accessible to the un-WoW playing public as the stories that came out earlier were (as they were closer to an outsider's view).

As years go by, it's natural that novelty wears off. Whats left is the somewhat uglier iron skeleton of gameplay mechanics. Saying that people interested in such rawly numerical takes on the game are somehow defective, is a bit naive to me. It's like saying baseball fans are stupid for obsessing with a .400 batting average, or the pitcher with the lowest era -- non-baseball fans not get why fans give a damn, but most appreciate the game enough to understand why it would be silly to say, "baseball is great, but only play until the little league age cap, then quit".

Honestly, this remaining core of gameplay was one of the more endearing parts of wow (which I played up to bwl before AQ came along and I became disinterested)... the gear, specs, tactics and fights still had the ability to be diverse and engaging, long after the honeymoon. (40 man raids and epic loots broke my heart, 5 and dime forever and I'd still be playing.)

[TheTrunkDr]

WoW is a fantastic game - play it to the level cap, then quit.

Once you stop being entertained by the gameplay but you hungrily seek the next carrot, you're addicted. It's an easy litmus test.
Considering most of the content just opens up at the level cap, this isn't very good advice. For you the leveling might have been the fun part and that's fine, but that's not the case for everyone. While leveling I played very sporadically, I had fun but pretty much just soloed and leveled slowly as I was enjoying the content not so much the leveling. As I approached the cap and got into a decent guild I started to enjoy the game much more as I started doing more and more group content and finally raiding. The game is very different at the cap and it only becomes a grind if you make it that way, especially in TBC as there is significantly less grinding necessary and more content available.

[Athryn]

You know what I've had fun doing lately? Riding around and getting all the fires from the fire festival. I really like they way they redesigned it this year, and the zonewide buffs are a lot of fun.

[Stroker Ace]

I have been leveling in Terrokkar and enjoying that bonfire buff. I didn't know where it came from for a long time, but I sure appreciated the damage.

[Skipper]

I have been leveling in Terrokkar and enjoying that bonfire buff. I didn't know where it came from for a long time, but I sure appreciated the damage.

Find your nearest bonfire and click on the festival pole. Keep spinning around until your "Ribbon" buff reaches it's max, which is 59 minutes, 59 seconds. Then enjoy going back to leveling with a +10% experience buff. :)

[Pogo]

.... how many foozles to fondle before the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal becomes vulnerable to ice bolts, and the ideal class make-up for fighting Hannibal

I lawlerskated

[Hanacker]

You know what I've had fun doing lately? Riding around and getting all the fires from the fire festival. I really like they way they redesigned it this year, and the zonewide buffs are a lot of fun.

How long does the festival last for? Those buffs are really helpful for leveling. And the xp for just showing up at one is pretty decent.

[Athryn]

How long does it last for? Those buffs are really helpful for leveling. And the xp for just showing up at one is pretty decent.

I think it goes through July 4th. :) I was doing the bonfires to get the flower things, but I also discovered a nice benefit at 70 ... desecrating the opposing faction fires gives you 11g.... I've made almost 500g just running around to all the fires.

[idrisz]

I think it goes through July 4th. :) I was doing the bonfires to get the flower things, but I also discovered a nice benefit at 70 ... desecrating the opposing faction fires gives you 11g.... I've made almost 500g just running around to all the fires.

may I have some.... 0_0

all those wow talks make me want to play but wotlk is coming out soon.....

[Athryn]

all those wow talks make me want to play but wotlk is coming out soon.....

If it's any consolation, the gear gap is supposed to be much smaller between BC and WOTLK than it was between original and BC. It's still a fun game to play, imo. :)

[idrisz]

If it's any consolation, the gear gap is supposed to be much smaller between BC and WOTLK than it was between original and BC. It's still a fun game to play, imo. :)

yeah but doesn't the level get bump to 75?? so that lvl 70 purple and lvl 75 green probably be about the same...

[Jag]

yeah but doesn't the level get bump to 75?? so that lvl 70 purple and lvl 75 green probably be about the same...

Not really, some of the lvl 75 Dungeon Blue's that i've seen are on par with my current T6 gear. So I won't even start looking to replace my current gear until I start running 75+ dungeons. I suspect i'll still have a bunch of my current items on me when I hit 80 since i'll be focusing on leveling rather than rerunning mid level dungeons for loots.

[idrisz]

Not really, some of the lvl 75 Dungeon Blue's that i've seen are on par with my current T6 gear. So I won't even start looking to replace my current gear until I start running 75+ dungeons. I suspect i'll still have a bunch of my current items on me when I hit 80 since i'll be focusing on leveling rather than rerunning mid level dungeons for loots.

true, but I never start running instance for loot until I hit max level, you know it probably only going to take like a week or 2 to hit 80, and on the way you have equipment fed to you with quest.

[LesJarvis]

I'm leveling a druid right now, and I'm being really obsessive about running all the dungeons. As a result I've leveled very slowly, but I've also had a really great time. For instance, for the better part of a week I refused to level until I killed every boss in BRD with a level appropriate group (52-57, so no outland gear.) This turned out to be a pretty monumental task, and it took 8 or 9 tries before I finally got two groups in a row that finished, the first of which cleared pretty much everything, and the second which was a pretty straightforward emp run. I met some cool people along the way, learned a dungeon I'd never really bothered to learn before, developed my feral tanking skills quite a bit, and made some good memories. Alas, the Ghostshroud I was coveting never showed up, but maybe I'll go back and solo the seven once I'm 70 for kicks.

Anyway, I plan on taking it easy and doing dungeons a lot while I level to 80, which I'll be doing on multiple characters. The idea of the 10 man raids sounds pretty appealing to me too, so I may take a shot at forming a raid group. I'm pretty excited for WotLK at this point.

[idrisz]

yeah, I thought I was going to level slow when TBC came out too, except that "Just one more level" kicked in, and I find myself hitting 70 with only 2 instances runs.

but I 2box so I can do most of the group quests solo, since I play a priest and a warrior.

[Athryn]

Why would you need to 2box to do quests?

Edit: Oh, group quests. But there aren't really many of those left that aren't soloable.

[idrisz]

Why would you need to 2box to do quests?

Edit: Oh, group quests. But there aren't really many of those left that aren't soloable.

you level faster too when it's a warrior/priest combo since I die less(or usually warrior dies and priest runs away). At end game content, I can fill tanking/healing/dps role in case we need one of those. Except I really enjoy playing a fury warrior, but they always want me to OT so I end up defense spec.

I played a bard in EQ, so I constantly want stuff to do and button to push, and playing 1 character at a time is really boring.

[Sol Invictus]

From what I've been hearing in-game, Blizzard really made it easy to level up from 1-60 because they wanna cut down the time people spend in that portion of the game. Heck, I hit level 14 faster than I've ever done before. They really amped up the quest rewards, and they give away small (4-6 pouch) bags as rewards early in the game so you don't struggle too much, either. I'm only level 14 and I've almost got 1 gold piece. It's really easy to get myself geared up early on.

Things have definitely changed. I recall having less than 30s at the same level way back in the day two years ago.

[Athryn]

From what I've been hearing in-game, Blizzard really made it easy to level up from 1-60 because they wanna cut down the time people spend in that portion of the game. Heck, I hit level 14 faster than I've ever done before. They really amped up the quest rewards, and they give away small (4-6 pouch) bags as rewards early in the game so you don't struggle too much, either. I'm only level 14 and I've almost got 1 gold piece. It's really easy to get myself geared up early on.

Things have definitely changed. I recall having less than 30s at the same level way back in the day two years ago.

I don't think that's the case, because you actually see more people spread across the 1-60 than you did before they made the changes, because more people are leveling more characters.

At least that's my exp.