WoW: 2.4.3: Level 30 Mounts!

[Athryn]

Yeah, I know, everyone here is playing Age of Conan or something. I thought I would get the ball rolling on a discussion anyway, because they've added several nice changes in this little content patch that some of you may not be aware of.

On the PTR currently:

General

* Dispel effects will no longer attempt to remove effects that have 100% dispel resistance.
* Parry Rating, Defense Rating, and Block Rating: Low-level players will now convert these ratings into their corresponding defensive stats at the same rate as level 34 players.
* Haris Pilton has launched a new line of bags and jewelry. Check her out in the World’s End Tavern!
* Mounts at 30?! Yes, it’s true: Apprentice Riding and mounts are now available at level 30. Training costs 35 gold.
* Blood Elf flightmasters outside of Silvermoon City and Tranquillien have traded in their bats for glorious fire-breathing dragonhawks.
* Alcohol cooldowns have been rolled into Drinks: All 10-second cooldowns have been removed and replaced with the 1-second Drink cooldown.
* Numerous flying non-combat pets have had their flight height modified to no longer skim along the ground: captured firefly, dragonhawk hatchlings, moths, owls, parrots, phoenix hatchling, spirit of summer, sprite darter, and tiny sporebat.
* Nether Ray Fry (a non-combat pet) is now available from the Skyguard Quartermaster. This requires an Exalted reputation with Sha’tari Skyguard.
* Equipping an item will now cancel any spell cast currently in progress.
* Placing an item in your bank will now cancel any spell cast currently in progress if the spell was cast by that item.
* You can no longer move backwards to stop racing rams.
* When a stun wears off, the creature that was stunned will prefer the last target with the highest threat, versus the current target.


Druid

* Barkskin: The cost of this spell is now reduced by Tree of Life Form.


Hunter

* Growl: Pets will no longer generate additional threat from this ability based on attack power buffs cast on them. Attack power buffs on their master will still indirectly increase the threat generated by the pet’s Growl.
* Pet Aggro: Pets will no longer generate threat immediately from being summoned.
* Scare Beast: This spell will now be limited correctly to one target.


Paladin

* Greater Blessing of Light Rank 1: This spell will no longer overwrite Greater Blessing of Light Rank 2.
* Summon Warhorse is now available at level 30.


Priest

* Mind Vision: This effect will now be cancelled immediately on targets who use an Invisibility Potion or Gnomish Cloaking Device.
* Spiritual Healing: Ranks 2-5 of this talent will no longer prevent refreshing Prayer of Mending.


Rogue

* Cheat Death: This talent has been rebalanced significantly. Killing blows are no longer 100% absorbed. If the Rogue is below 10% health, the killing blow is still completely absorbed; if the Rogue is over 10% health, enough damage will be absorbed to reduce the Rogue’s health down to 10%. For the following 3 seconds, damage is not always reduced by 90%; it is now reduced by a maximum of 90%, depending on how much resilience the Rogue has. The damage reduction will be four times the damage reduction resilience causes against critical strikes.


Shaman

* Earth Elemental: This pet will now leash back to its totem when pulled beyond 50 yards away.
* Lightning Overload: This talent will no longer do excessive damage when used with Lightning Bolt Ranks 2-10.


Warlock

* Curse of Shadows: This spell has been removed.
* Curse of Elements: This spell now applies to Arcane and Shadow damage, as well as Frost and Fire.
* Demonic Sacrifice: This ability will now interact correctly with the Spirit Guide resurrection system in battlegrounds. A sacrificed pet will not be resummoned on death, and will not prevent keeping a record of the most recently created pet.
* Health Funnel: This ability will now cancel channeling when the target pet is Banished.
* Ritual of Summoning: The mana cost of this spell will now be properly deducted when cast.
* Summon Felsteed is now available at level 30.


Warrior

* Revenge: Ranks 1-5 of this ability now have damage ranges instead of fixed damage values (like ranks 6-8.)


PvP

* The Warsong Gulch flag can no longer be picked up at the same time as a flag is capped.


Professions
Alchemy

* Philosopher’s Stone now requires 200 Alchemy.

Cooking

* Juicy Bear Burgers now correctly increase healing as well as spell damage.

Jewelcrafting

* Activated beneficial effects from jewelcrafting trinkets can no longer be dispelled.

Mining

* Green quality gems can be found in mining nodes again. The drop rate of blue gems from mining nodes remains unchanged.

Tailoring

* Removed the cooldown from regular Mooncloth.
* Herb bags can now hold Un’goro Soil and Evergreen Pouches.
* Mycah of Sporeggar has discovered how to create 28 slot herb bags.
* New Tailoring patterns are available from Haughty Modiste in Steamwheedle Port, Tanaris: Haliscan Jacket and Haliscan Pantaloons.


Quests

* Bhag’thera now spawns at a normal quest spawn rate.
* For the quests, Intercepting the Mana Cells and Maintaining the Sunwell Portal, phased characters will not be able to see non-phased character AoE effects and vice-versa.
* For the quests, Intercepting the Mana Cells and Maintaining the Sunwell Portal, pets gaining/losing phase status will now properly break off combat from unphased/phased opponents.


Dungeons and Raids

* Players can now be summoned to raid instances from heroic dungeons.

Magister’s Terrace

* The Stun component to the Sunblade Mage Guard Glaive Throw has been removed and the Bounce range reduced.
* Vexallus and Kael’thas are now tauntable in Heroic mode.
* Vexallus’ damage caused by Pure Energy has been decreased.
* Kael’thas’ Arcane Sphere has had its visual size increased. His Arcane Sphere attack has had its range decreased and the damage/second of Phase two on Normal mode has been decreased. (Heroic mode remains unchanged.)
* Sunblade Warlocks have had their damage reduced slightly.
* Fel Crystals in the Selin Fireheart encounter have had their health reduced slightly.
* Warlord Salaris and Kagani Nightstrike have had their damage output reduced slightly.

Sunwell Plateau

* Creatures in the area around Grand Warlock Alythess and Lady Sacrolash will no longer spawn while the twins are in combat.
* Nether Protection will now correctly trigger from Kil’jaeden’s Shield Orb Shadow Bolts.
* Vanish now correctly wipes threat on Kil’jaeden.


Items

* Bow of the Verdant Keeper’s Aim: This item’s triggered effect no longer breaks the effect of Scatter Shot.
* Brutal Gladiator’s Pummeler has had its Stamina value increased to the appropriate value.
* Clockwork Robot Bots fight amongst themselves again...without attacking people in the arena. Well... they’ll blow up other Bots in the arena, but you know what we mean.
* The Eredar Twins will now award the same items regardless of which order they are killed in.
* Invisibility Potions: These potions now are on the same cooldown as other combat consumable potions (such as mana potions.)
* Pendant of the Violet Eye: This item will again work correctly with Holy Light and Flash of Light.
* Shattered Sun Pendant of Acumen: The triggered effect from this Item can now occur on periodic damage ticks.
* Thori’dal, the Star’s Fury is now Unique as intended.
* Vengeful Gladiator’s Baton of Light: This item now appears in the correct position on the vendor list.


User Interface

* The help interface has been simplified dramatically. Players will no longer be required to select a category when opening a GM ticket. In addition, players can use the “Talk to a GM” button to fill out a ticket that requires a GM response or the “Report Issue” button to fill out a ticket that does not require a GM response.
* Target buff/debuff timers that appear when you cast a spell are now more visible.
* Time Management features have been implemented! These features include an alarm clock, stopwatch, and viewing your computer’s local time.
* The new stopwatch feature can be accessed via the /stopwatch, /sw, or /timer slash commands. Inputting a time into the slash command will make the stopwatch count down. For example, /stopwatch 1:0:0 will make the stopwatch count down from an hour, /stopwatch 1:30 will make it count down from 1 minute, 30 seconds, and /stopwatch 30 will make it count down from 30 seconds.
* Added the following macro commands: /targetenemyplayer, /targetfriendplayer.
* Added key bindings for tab targeting players.
* Ctrl-Tab and other target nearest friend functions will no longer target you.
* Targeting using /target will prefer live targets over dead ones.
* You can no longer click the minimap to cast ground targeted spells.
* Invisible players with Hunter’s Mark can see the hunter that put the mark on them.
* Vendor items now show their Duration in Inventory.
* For additional notes on Lua and XML changes please visit the UI & Macros Forum

[Athryn]

World Environment

* Winterspring Ice Thistle Matriarchs and Patriarchs may now drop Thick Yeti Fur.
* Skinning any Winterspring Ice Thistle yetis may now result in Thick Yeti Fur.
* Increased the drop rate of Pristine Yeti Horns from Winterspring Ice Thistle Matriarchs and Patriarchs.
* Goblin Weather Machine- Prototype 01-B weather changes will no longer force the affected character to stand.
* Collector’s Edition Pet Redemption NPCs/items/quests have been relocated/modified to/for towns with mailboxes (Goldshire, Razor Hill, etc.).
* Young Sporebats and Greater Sporebats in Zangarmarsh now drop Sporebat Eyes for the quest Gathering the Reagents.
* Blacksmithing Supplies vendor and repairer, Blazzle, in Area 52 is now next to the forge and anvil outside the inn.
* Banker Meeda, in Area 52 is now in the...well...the bank, along with a guild vault and guards. The other three Area 52 bankers are still located in the auction-house-turned-bank.
* Wastewander Bandits and Rogues should be more plentiful in the northern parts of Tanaris.


Bug Fixes

* The mage spell, Counterspell now shows in the combat log.
* Gan’arg Analyzers will no longer occasionally become friendly to players.
* Talented abilities that cost a percentage of base mana will no longer display an incorrect mana cost when inspected by a player of a different class or level.
* Guild leaders should now be able to properly promote a new guild leader regardless of their range.
* Druids: Mangle will no longer incorrectly indicate a 100-yard range on the tooltip.
* Hunters: Using an instant ability after Steady Shot will no longer lock out auto shot.
* Hunter Snake Trap will no longer break players out of stealth if the snakes pass near the stealthed character.
* Hunters: Concussive shot will now properly have a chance to proc Bow of Searing Arrows.
* Rogues: The talent Heightened Senses, Rank 1 and Rank 2 will now affect attacks from wands.
* Using Jewelcrafting figurines will no longer cause scrolling combat text to appear twice.
* Fixed an issue in which shadows were not appearing properly for users with GF4 video chipsets in Open GL mode.
* Corrected an issue in which users with Creative X-FI sound cards would sometimes here a slight popping noise when running.
* Players will now correctly receive a Battleground Mark message for the marks that are received at the end of a battle.
* Corrected an issue where the initial trigger or activation sounds for Immolation Trap and Explosive Trap could not be heard by some players.
* Smelt Hardened Khorium will now properly require a forge instead of an anvil and hammer.
* Corrected a typo in the tooltip for the Druid spell Rip (Rank 4).
* Looting a Nightmare Vine will now properly no longer apply poison when the node is looted.
* The Figurine- Seaspray Albatross ability will now properly restore the correct amount of mana.
* First Aid bandages can no longer be applied to a player with the Recently Bandaged debuff. An error message of, "Could not activate more than one bandage" will be displayed.
* Corrected the tooltips to read properly for the flight paths from The Stormspire, Toshley’s Station, Blade’s Edge, and Area 52.
* Greater Elementals summoned by a shaman will now properly have a combat log entry.
* Players will no longer become stuck on the Nimboya’s Laden Pike when driving it into the ground.
* The quest, "Going Going, Guano!" will now have a more consistent level requirement for the dungeon.
* The quest, "Into The Scarlet Monastery" is now available to players of the appropriate level for the instance.
* Blueleaf Tubers can now be properly looted.
* The quest turn-ins for the Ahn’Qiraj war effort now give the appropriate amount of credit for each successful quest turn-in.
* Cloak of Shadows will now properly remove Shrink.
* Nightbane will no longer become unresponsive and unkillable during his air phase.
* Several items sold by the Consortium reputation vendor Paulsta’ats are now bind on pick-up: Formula: Enchant Weapon- Major Striking, Design: Delicate Blood Garnet, Design: Shifting Shadow Draenite, Design: Lustrous Azure Moonstone, Design:Thick Golden Draenite.
* It is no longer possible to delete a character that is an arena team captain without first promoting another player to captain.
* Taunts will now properly stick when a target is stunned while being taunted.


So the mounts at 30 is cool, and finally zomgwtfbbq 28 slot herb bags again.

Anyone have any other reactions?

[BDGE]

Anyone have any other reactions?

WoW is d0med?

[LesJarvis]

Naturally they announce this right after I've leveled a druid past this range. I could have had an extra 45g! Oh well.

[Bahimiron]

Huh. Why 30 instead of 20? With 20 it's a nice 20/40/60 progression for standard mounts?

[Jag]

Happy about the mount change. Had a few alts I was too lazy to level to 40.

Other than that, nothing substantive. New Ogrila vanity pet I guess.

[Anaxagoras]

Huh. Why 30 instead of 20? With 20 it's a nice 20/40/60 progression for standard mounts?
There isn't any mount @ 40 anymore. The lvl 40 mount is now at level 30.

BTW... I thought they weren't going to do any more patches before the next expansion. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. My level 31 priest is jumping for joy!

[zabuni]

* The Stun component to the Sunblade Mage Guard Glaive Throw has been removed and the Bounce range reduced.

Yay!

* Curse of Shadows: This spell has been removed.

Boo!

* Curse of Elements: This spell now applies to Arcane and Shadow damage, as well as Frost and Fire.

Oh wait. Yay!

* Cheat Death: This talent has been rebalanced significantly. Killing blows are no longer 100% absorbed. If the Rogue is below 10% health, the killing blow is still completely absorbed; if the Rogue is over 10% health, enough damage will be absorbed to reduce the Rogue’s health down to 10%. For the following 3 seconds, damage is not always reduced by 90%; it is now reduced by a maximum of 90%, depending on how much resilience the Rogue has. The damage reduction will be four times the damage reduction resilience causes against critical strikes.

Aww....this was so much fun for our pvp specced rogue on prince fights. He could dps the entire time.

[Lorini]

They are not going to do anymore .x patches anymore (as in 2.5) before 3.0/the expansion. But this is 2.4.3, a .x.x patch.

[Bahimiron]

That's what I get for message boarding on a cellphone.

This makes more sense, I suppose.

Though I did think that different mounts at lower levels was one of the few thins Vangard did right.

[Marcus]

Sweet! I can't wait.

[Gordon Cameron]

This is cool and makes me a little more incentivized to level my cute gnome warlock Bengo. Would be nice to make cheetah form available at 20 though, since its value as a "pre mount mount" was part of the fun.

[Ragnar Oppedal]

* Winterspring Ice Thistle Matriarchs and Patriarchs may now drop Thick Yeti Fur.
* Skinning any Winterspring Ice Thistle yetis may now result in Thick Yeti Fur.
* Increased the drop rate of Pristine Yeti Horns from Winterspring Ice Thistle Matriarchs and Patriarchs.Dear god yes.
* Curse of Elements: This spell now applies to Arcane and Shadow damage, as well as Frost and Fire.I wonder why they don't just add Nature damage to this too.
* The Warsong Gulch flag can no longer be picked up at the same time as a flag is capped.If this means that only one flag can be carried at the same time, then that's amazing.
* The Stun component to the Sunblade Mage Guard Glaive Throw has been removed and the Bounce range reduced.Thank god, that thing is annoying as fuck.

[Lietgardis]

For the most part, this looks like "let's go ahead and fix all the stuff that's been lingering in bug triage meetings for the last six months. And throw in something to make the kids happy!"

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Supertanker]

I like this patch, it removes so many small annoyances.

I just got a pair of horde toons over 40 for the first time, d'oh. Ah well, my daughter will be thrilled because she really wants a mount, her shaman is level 25, and 40 seems soooooo far away.

I am sad about the 28-slot herb bag because my priest is one of three active toons on my server that can make the Satchel of Cenarius. Another easy gold route down the tubes.

The number crunchers on Shadowpriest.com already figured out the revised Pendant of Acumen will add 20.57 spell damage for the Aldor proc, and 17.14 for the Scryer proc. As my wife often says about the WoW community, "You're all such a bunch of Aspies."

[Athryn]

I am sad about the 28-slot herb bag because my priest is one of three active toons on my server that can make the Satchel of Cenarius. Another easy gold route down the tubes.



I'm not, I haven't been able to find anyone who can actually make it in months.

[Pogo]

Aspies?

re: Patch, some great changes to Heroic MagT. I like a challenge as much as the next person, but when a heroic dungeon makes you not want to run it without the convenience of at least a T5 or better-geared tank and the requirement of 2 forms of semi-permanent CC (sap/blind, sheep, freezing trap RESISTED RESISTED), there's something wrong.

[Kareem]

Ragnar beat me to this:

* Winterspring Ice Thistle Matriarchs and Patriarchs may now drop Thick Yeti Fur.
* Skinning any Winterspring Ice Thistle yetis may now result in Thick Yeti Fur.

Too late Blizzard. You've already caused countless head vein explosions because of this. Fuck you.

[Pogo]

Ragnar beat me to this:
Too late Blizzard. You've already caused countless head vein explosions because of this. Fuck you.

I always thought Blizzard had a "too little, too late" thing going with some of their patches. That should have been addressed 2 years ago, as it's such a seemingly small insignificant change in their code to allow it.

[Sebmojo]

Aspies?


People with Asperger's Syndrome. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome)

[Ragnar Oppedal]

Heroic Magisters' Terrace really isn't about the tank, T4 level gear is more than sufficient. What you need is some good CC (Hunter/Mage/Rogue is great) and a good healer (and not a Paladin), and hope you don't get completely shit adds in the 3rd fight.

[Athryn]

Heroic Magisters' Terrace really isn't about the tank, T4 level gear is more than sufficient. What you need is some good CC (Hunter/Mage/Rogue is great) and a good healer (and not a Paladin), and hope you don't get completely shit adds in the 3rd fight.

Weird, I can heal HMT on my Pally just fine.

[Shadari]

Weird, I can heal HMT on my Pally just fine.
Yeah, but you've played the game for like 12,000 hours. You could probably heal just fine with a warrior running around bandaging everyone. ;)

[Stroker Ace]

True story ;)

[Athryn]

Yeah, but you've played the game for like 12,000 hours. You could probably heal just fine with a warrior running around bandaging everyone. ;)

Actually, I've only played it for 6600 hours ><

[Pogo]

Weird, I can heal HMT on my Pally just fine.

The 2nd and last boss fights heavily penalize the single-target healing restrictions of paladin, even you can't argue that.

[Hanacker]

I think the last fight is the only one where you really notice having a pally healer. Unless you have a pally or druid tank switch over and help heal the last phase. And maybe the third boss if you don't have enough CC.

[Kryten]

I was already on the edge of re-installing to level an alt or two (priest/warrior) before WotLK, getting a mount at 30 might just push me into it.

[Pogo]

I was already on the edge of re-installing to level an alt or two (priest/warrior) before WotLK, getting a mount at 30 might just push me into it.

Not to give you any more reason to get sucked back in, but quests pre-60 give ludicrous amounts of experience. Leveling is now akin to being rested constantly, and doing quests is much more efficient XP gain than killing mobs for the sole purpose of gaining experience.

[Kryten]

Oh, I've already taken advantage of the leveling bump but the constant running through zones like Ashenvale (even with the newish FP to the east) after level 25 was really grating.....

[Matthew Bramblet]

For items, the biggest addition in the patch is the new "Gigantique" Bag (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38082), a 22 slot epic bag that costs 1200 gold(!) each from the socialite herself, Haris Pilton. This is one of the money sinks the developers had talked about adding, to soak up some of that extra gold from all the daily quests.

They also added new versions of the epic gems that cost honor; you can buy non-Unique versions of them now, for 800 arena points each. That's something new, an "arena point sink" of sorts, for those people skilled enough in arena to get all their gear early in the season and need something else to spend points on.

A lot of other little changes announced were already seen in the WotLK alpha: the stopwatch feature, combining the two curses, etc. It looks like they're backporting some of the smaller changes now, instead of rolling everything out in WoW 3.0, right before the expansion.

[Gedd]

For items, the biggest addition in the patch is the new "Gigantique" Bag (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38082), a 22 slot epic bag that costs 1200 gold(!) each from the socialite herself, Haris Pilton.

I was wondering if any of her stuff might actually be useful when I saw the patch notes. At 1200g each, you're basically talking the cost of a second epic flyer to replace all your bags (less if you're a hunter or possibly warlock). That's a lot of coin, but definitely in there as a gold sink. At least it's a useful money sink too, as opposed to the vanity stuff like titles and hippogryphs.

I'm curious what crafted bag sizes will be like in WotLK. We went up 2-4 slots between vanilla WoW and TBC. If there's a similar increase, 20-22 slots should be the standard size for WotLK.

And big /cheer on the level 30 mount change. I've been leveling my paladin and put her in the barn to get restocked on rest XP at level 33. Now I can keep her there until the patch hits and work on my mage who is 24.

[Mark Asher]

This is making me think of resubbing. I have a level 29 priest and a level 21 mage. I wouldn't mind getting them horses. I've been playing AoC, and while it's a nice place to visit, it isn't WoW. WoW is like home!

(It's also ironic to me that while WoW's PvP is complained about all the time, it's much more meaningful than the PvP in AoC currently is -- you get honor points and you can get nice gear as a result of PvP. You get dick right now in AoC.)

[Mysterio]

This is making me think of resubbing. I have a level 29 priest and a level 21 mage. I wouldn't mind getting them horses. I've been playing AoC, and while it's a nice place to visit, it isn't WoW. WoW is like home!

(It's also ironic to me that while WoW's PvP is complained about all the time, it's much more meaningful than the PvP in AoC currently is -- you get honor points and you can get nice gear as a result of PvP. You get dick right now in AoC.)

I feel the same way. While playing AoC, I don't have the desire to remain logged in after playing for a bit. It almost seems like a chore to me rather than an escape from reality. For me, WoW has that fantastical charm, while AoC (as of yet) does not.

[intruder]

The Stun component to the Sunblade Mage Guard Glaive Throw has been removed and the Bounce range reduced.
* Vexallus and Kael’thas are now tauntable in Heroic mode.
* Vexallus’ damage caused by Pure Energy has been decreased.
* Kael’thas’ Arcane Sphere has had its visual size increased. His Arcane Sphere attack has had its range decreased and the damage/second of Phase two on Normal mode has been decreased. (Heroic mode remains unchanged.)
* Sunblade Warlocks have had their damage reduced slightly.
* Fel Crystals in the Selin Fireheart encounter have had their health reduced slightly.
* Warlord Salaris and Kagani Nightstrike have had their damage output reduced slightly.



Thanks for nerfing the only instance that provided something a little more than "yawn" for some players. How about raising the group limit to 10 so we could rape the BC instances just like we could with Scholo / BRS / Strath.
-> /follow

CoS removed wtf. I had tons of fun to see mages pull aggro because they didn't realize I had put CoE on the mobs instead of CoS. Alternating between those 2 was keeping them on their toes. ;)


Still no intention to play again before WoTLK.

[Jag]

I was wondering if any of her stuff might actually be useful when I saw the patch notes. At 1200g each, you're basically talking the cost of a second epic flyer to replace all your bags (less if you're a hunter or possibly warlock). That's a lot of coin, but definitely in there as a gold sink. At least it's a useful money sink too, as opposed to the vanity stuff like titles and hippogryphs.

Heh, the bags are not unique. I may pick up a few in celebration of hitting 10K gold and nothing to spend it on.

[z22]

If this means that only one flag can be carried at the same time, then that's amazing.


I don't think that's what they mean, but to be honest, I'm not sure what they're talking about. Maybe a loophole that allowed players to grab a flag as it was capped...?

[Ragnar Oppedal]

I'm not saying you can't heal Magisters' Terrace as a Paladin, but it's a complete pain in the ass and you need a very good one to pull it off. Largely depends on how much DPS you have and how well your group can deal with the AOE damage and whatnot in the fights.

[Athryn]

I don't think that's what they mean, but to be honest, I'm not sure what they're talking about. Maybe a loophole that allowed players to grab a flag as it was capped...?

There was a bug, that I have seen at least once, where you could grab the flag just as it capped. It didn't prevent the flag from capping though, but it also wouldn't show the person who grabbed it as having it.

I'm not saying you can't heal Magisters' Terrace as a Paladin, but it's a complete pain in the ass and you need a very good one to pull it off. Largely depends on how much DPS you have and how well your group can deal with the AOE damage and whatnot in the fights.

I've never found it to be a pain in the ass per se, it's probably because I play with good people. If you're talking about a PUG situation than you're probably right, but I try to avoid pugging that place. Wearing mostly T5 with some BT loot also probably helps. :P

[CalvinGT]

Golly gowrsh, yet another reason to keep playing? I wish I knew some more people at low levels though, the game is so, so empty on all the servers I am on at low level.

[Kareem]

This is making me think of resubbing. I have a level 29 priest and a level 21 mage. I wouldn't mind getting them horses. I've been playing AoC, and while it's a nice place to visit, it isn't WoW. WoW is like home!

(It's also ironic to me that while WoW's PvP is complained about all the time, it's much more meaningful than the PvP in AoC currently is -- you get honor points and you can get nice gear as a result of PvP. You get dick right now in AoC.)

Dude, you're going to quit your quitting of WoW because of level 30 mounts? That's terribly fickle!

[Lorini]

Mark is just looking for any excuse, ignore him :)

[Athryn]

Ok, this is kinda cool. On the test server, Construction has begun in Stormwind!

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.wowinsider.com/media/2008/06/az_swconstruction.jpg

(In WOTLK, there's a harbor connected to Stormwind)

I'm glad they're adding things like this to give the world a little more life, and to not necessarily just have things "appear."

[AaronSofaer]

I'm glad they're adding things like this to give the world a little more life, and to not necessarily just have things "appear."


Kinda like the whole storyline of Griftah? :)

[Athryn]

Kinda like the whole storyline of Griftah? :)

Yep. :)

[Jag]

Ok, this is kinda cool. On the test server, Construction has begun in Stormwind!

All those boats in SW are full of explosives. It's not so much 'construction' as 'destruction'.

[Anaxagoras]

Wait.... Stormwind is getting a harbor connecting it to the new expansion areas? Isn't SW inland??? As in, very inland?

[Pogo]

Wait.... Stormwind is getting a harbor connecting it to the new expansion areas? Isn't SW inland??? As in, very inland?

Uhh... you know there is a beach on the west side of Westfall, right?

[Athryn]

Wait.... Stormwind is getting a harbor connecting it to the new expansion areas? Isn't SW inland??? As in, very inland?

Not really. If you look at your world map, you will notice there is coastline right next to Stormwind. In fact, there's enough room North of Stormwind, and south of Dun Morough/west of Burning Steppes to put a whole other zone in.

[LesJarvis]

Not that it has anything to do with anything other than unused real estate, but I'd love to see Kul'Tiras and Greymane implemented in a future expansion. Perhaps in the inevitable Maelstrom focused expansion.

[Kareem]

Most of the Kul Tiras navy guys were assholes in Frozen Throne, so I hope whatever remaining fragments of them after Admiral Proudmoore's death have been somehow wrecked.

[Skipper]

Cool news on the mounts. Thanks for the early news Athryn!

[Ranulf]

Yay, ice yetis are "improved". 4 years later, way to go.. You only do that quest now because while being a royal PITA, if gave you tons of XP with rested. Though I only really enjoyed those two quests on my prot pally since I was killing 3-5 of them at a time.

[intruder]

Yay, ice yetis are "improved". 4 years later, way to go.. You only do that quest now because while being a royal PITA, if gave you tons of XP with rested. Though I only really enjoyed those two quests on my prot pally since I was killing 3-5 of them at a time.

I don't recall that quest being that hard.
Did Blizzard fix those 2 other quests that are notorious for shitty drop rates? The one in Tanaris (Gland from those water things for Noggenfogger quest line) and the one in Silverfall (spider something).
That spider thing could take hours to get...

[Thomas Wilde]

I'm not, I haven't been able to find anyone who can actually make it in months.

My shadow priest's been able to make it for weeks, Athryn. You must be the only herbalist I know who I didn't mention that to.

[Ranulf]

I don't recall that quest being that hard.
Did Blizzard fix those 2 other quests that are notorious for shitty drop rates? The one in Tanaris (Gland from those water things for Noggenfogger quest line) and the one in Silverfall (spider something).
That spider thing could take hours to get...

Done on 5 toons in the past 4 years now. Hard? No. Long, pointless, near genocidal boring killing of yetis? Yes. As I said, the pally was tolerable because I could kill 3-5 in the same time or so as killing one and got a nice chunk of xp before hitting outlands. The priest was after the pally and probably faster just by sheer luck on drops and that I could kill one in 10-20s instead of 30-45s.

[RobotPants]

The yeti death sound will be forever vividly etched in my brain.

[Adam B]

The day that I let go the emotional need to complete every single damn quest I came across was a glorious day.

I'm looking at you, you robotic chicken fucks.

[Creole Ned]

Electric eels in Zangarmarsh. Best quest ever.

At driving me mad.

Maybe in TWotLK they can condense Zangarmarsh into a single NPC with one giant exclamation mark over his head. When you click on him, he gives you a single quest: Kill everything you see.

Level 30 mounts are nice. I hope the druid's travel form gets bumped down to 20 so it isn't made redundant. The construction in Stormwind is neat. I liked the construction preceding things like the arenas and universities in CoH. It made the world feel a little more alive (even if in one case they forgot to remove the construction workers when the projects were complete, entombing them while they still amiably chatted about what they wanted for lunch).

[LesJarvis]

Even if you get a mount and travel form at the same level the latter is hardly redundant. Besides, if you have feral swiftness travel form is only a 10% speed increase at level 30 anyway.

[Creole Ned]

If at level 30 I can choose between a mount that takes a few moments to summon that moves at 60% normal speed vs. an instant cast travel form that moves at 40% and both can only be used on surfaces marked as "outdoor", the travel form becomes redundant to me. The only time I ever used travel form on my (now 68) druid past 30 was when I had a short distance to travel and was too impatient to wait for Fancy Cat to summon.

Agreed on feral swiftness, though. It made the cheetah largely redundant and prowling a lot more palatable.

[Athryn]

If at level 30 I can choose between a mount that takes a few moments to summon that moves at 60% normal speed vs. an instant cast travel form that moves at 30% and both can only be used on surfaces marked as "outdoor", the travel form becomes redundant to me. The only time I ever used travel form on my (now 68) druid past 30 was when I had a short distance to travel and was too impatient to wait for Fancy Cat to summon.

Agreed on feral swiftness, though. It made the cheetah largely redundant and prowling a lot more palatable.

Travel Form is useable in combat, mounts are not. Therefore Travel Form is not redundant, as it helps you get away from sticky situations, especially in PvP/Arenas/Battlegrounds.

Travel form also becomes useful if you raid in Hyjal or BT (I am often jealous of the Druids during Supremus, as they can just shift and easily get away.)

[LesJarvis]

Huh, I use travel form all the time. It's instant and usable in combat, so bash mob 1 -> barkskin/entangling roots mob 2 -> travel form is a good way to get out of a sticky situation, or entanglings roots -> loot node -> travel form to next node is handy. It also removes movement impairing effects and it costs less to shift into than cat form. I also use it to travel short distances like you said. I look at it more as a tool than a means of travel I guess.

[Tankero]

Indeed. If you run for what it'd take you to cast a heal, you'll get to cast it before whatever is hitting you is back in melee range.

[Creole Ned]

I'm not saying travel form isn't useful, I'm saying that in comparison to a mount you will be able to get at the same level (30) the mount is better for travel because it's, well, 20% faster. All of the non-travel purposes listed I'm in agreement with. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that initially.

[Lorini]

Patch went live this morning.

[Athryn]

Patch went live this morning.

Woot, time to buy 2 mounts for my level 35 and 39 chars! :D

[Marcus]

Patch went live this morning.

FUCK!

I was trying to wait at least another month to level my last two alts.... fuck!

[Athryn]

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck!

The weapon swapping change affects libram swapping as well, so my mod that would swap out librams depending on what spell I was casting is basically broken. :| WTB librams that combine more abilities so they're useful! ><

[Stroker Ace]

Bah, switching out loot on a per-cast basis is nuts.

[Gunmetal]

Yeah. You shouldn't need to know how to set up a macro to get the most out of your character. The more broken mechanics they fix like that, the better. I can't wait until they fix the Autoshot/Steadyshot mechanic

[Athryn]

I agree, but the way Librams are itemized, they all have niche uses instead of having nice general uses, which necessitates the need to swap them out on a per cast basis.

Yeah. You shouldn't need to know how to set up a macro to get the most out of your character. The more broken mechanics they fix like that, the better. I can't wait until they fix the Autoshot/Steadyshot mechanic

In fact, this change requires me to write more macros to make my character function properly, instead of using one simple addon. If I want to continue to use multiple librams, I will have to make a "/use libram x /cast spell y" for each libram I want to use. That's a step backwards, in my opinion.

[Pogo]

I agree, but the way Librams are itemized, they all have niche uses instead of having nice general uses, which necessitates the need to swap them out on a per cast basis.

You have two healing spells...

[Athryn]

By the way, this is affecting any kind of gear swapping, in and out of combat. So, when I fly around and land to mine an ore node? My "mining" cast is interrupted when my riding crop trinket is swapped out.

[TheTrunkDr]

You have two healing spells...
Seriously, it's not that big a change. Also switching weapons/idols/totems/librams isn't permitted while casting and causes a global cooldown while not casting so there's really no way around it now. If you want to switch it'll cost you a cooldown.

[Stroker Ace]

Hah, you fly around to mine ore nodes ;)

[Athryn]

Why I expected anyone here to actually understand or even sympathize with the problem is beyond me.

[Funkula]

I have a 70 paladin and I never even considered swapping librams like that. I have a healy libram (the Blessed Book of Nagrand, IIRC) that I pick up when I put on my healing gear, and I have a tanky libram (the cheap one you buy w/ badges of justice) to go with my tanky gear.

I think the reason we don't understand the problem is that you're the one who's being excessively OCD about it. No offense.

[Stroker Ace]

I totally understand your frustration, especially since you have probably been spending your last X weeks of gameplay investing your time towards itemizing with the "instant libram switch" paradigm in mind. Blizzard fucked you, and you can't get that time back.

Big picture though, you shouldn't have ever had to or been able to switch like that. It's too bad Blizzard won't fix the underlying itemization problems along with closing this comfortable powergamer loophole.

[Gunmetal]

Because it's not a problem? If you were totem/relic/libram swapping, you were taking advantage of a broken mechanic. They're fixing it so you're not required to write a macro or run a mod to properly use your skills.

Blizzard fixed melee over 2 years ago so you didn't have to micro manage what weapon you had equipped on special attacks, it should be no surprise they're doing the same with casters. It limits what they can do with weapon itemization, as evidenced by the +haste S4 weapons not initially being added to the start of S4

[Skipper]

I can sympathize but I don't play my healy type anymore. Healer burnout has hit me three times now. As for the riding crop thing, that's something to note, I'll look for it this evening.

Which item swap program are you using Athryn?

[TheTrunkDr]

By the way, this is affecting any kind of gear swapping, in and out of combat. So, when I fly around and land to mine an ore node? My "mining" cast is interrupted when my riding crop trinket is swapped out.
Admittedly this sort of thing would be annoying, not sure why they made it so that all gear swaps would cause the interrupt. Probably an oversight on Blizzard's part, they're actually pretty bad about this sort of thing.

[Anaxagoras]

Why I expected anyone here to actually understand or even sympathize with the problem is beyond me.

My characters are a paladin, a shaman, and a druid. Believe me, I feel your pain.

[Ranulf]

"Equipping an item will now cancel any spell cast currently in progress."

Hmm, well at least its not as bad as when I first heard about it. I thought they were going to kill weapon switching in mid combat. The riding crop issue should be solved when/if they change those to one time mount enchant like modifiers (which has its own problems if you have multiple mounts). My sympathies to those who used this to maximize gameplay. I've never bothered to get that hardcore.

[Pogo]

My sympathies to those who used this to maximize gameplay. I've never bothered to get that hardcore.

I have no sympathy whatsoever to anyone who had to do this to feel the need to be competitive. The greatest Paladin healer I've ever played with never had to swap his Librams mid-boss fight. If he's doing raid healing then he's obviously going to use his Flash of Light enhancing libram. If there's enough Paladins for Blessing of Light to be put on the raid then he would probably use that libram, and if he's MT healing he would use a Libram that buffs Holy Light.

No, this change was necessary, because actively switching to a haste set of weapons to prepare for the next cast, WHILE casting, was deemed as a bit overpowered in the hands of people who bothered to use the macros. Fuck them, who cares. This change impacts all of a handful of the WoW population.

Cancelling mining and herb casts because of item switches seems kind of dumb and they might fix that, but as of right now you can deal with it.

[Tankero]

Actually, that change further grinds feral druids into the dust, at least in PvP...

Well, I suppose you're right, that's still just a handful of people.

[mouselock]

Actually, that change further grinds feral druids into the dust, at least in PvP...

Well, I suppose you're right, that's still just a handful of people.

Eh? What were you swapping that you can't now?

[Tankero]

Feral damage weapon to healing weapon during a regrowth cast. It was a tactic ferals use in conjunction with the agility-to-healing talent, since ferals give up almost all of their healing viability for the sake of Mangle.

Shift out, begin cast, switch weapon midway, cast finishes, shift back in, switch weapon.

[TheTrunkDr]

Feral damage weapon to healing weapon during a regrowth cast. It was a tactic ferals use in conjunction with the agility-to-healing talent, since ferals give up almost all of their healing viability for the sake of Mangle.

Shift out, begin cast, switch weapon midway, cast finishes, shift back in, switch weapon.
Well now you'll have to switch weapon then cast, OMG GAME BROKEN!!!! HOW THE FUCK CAN BLIZZARD FUCK US ALL LIKE THIS!!!11 Cry me a river.

[Tankero]

OMG OMG

Actually, it's due to the fact that feral druids don't have any caster-form defenses they can rely on. If you lock a feral druid in caster form (which makes every single cooldown in caster form critical) it's game over for them.

Regardless, feral druids aren't viable in PvP, this change doesn't affect that, so it's no reason to go all Greek Tragedy. It's just one of those little things that I used to do and felt SO SMART for doing.

[Balasarius]

Doesn't the libram swap already invoke GCD?

If so, switching it out mid-cast was basically an exploit.

And why would your paladin have a riding crop?

[Anaxagoras]

I have no sympathy whatsoever to anyone who had to do this to feel the need to be competitive.
We don't have your sympathy?

Fuck.

[Gedd]

I saw a lot of people < 40 heading to the paladin trainer and mount vendors last night (while I was getting the same for my 30 mage and 35 paladin).

The gear swap cancelling casting kind of falls in line with the melee weapon fix they did a long time ago to prevent constant weapon switching to maximize specials. Kind of amazing they didn't change it until just now.

The mining/herbing interrupt isn't nice though, but shouldn't be an issue if you dismount first instead of just clicking the node to dismount. It's an extra step, but folks will get used to it.

I can't wait until they fix the Autoshot/Steadyshot mechanic

Last I read they were fixing this in TBC so it's no longer "necessary" to macro it.

[TheTrunkDr]

Last I read they were fixing this in TBC so it's no longer "necessary" to macro it.
You mean dumbing it down so people can spam Steady without it interrupting their Autoshot. Personally I hope they change the play style of Hunters entirely, the fact that you can macro the three abilities you'll ever need to perform optimally (not just adequately) really breaks them. They're a one button wonder at this point.

[Tankero]

Good. Less fuck-ups come raid time.

[Anaxagoras]

The gear swap cancelling casting kind of falls in line with the melee weapon fix they did a long time ago to prevent constant weapon switching to maximize specials. Kind of amazing they didn't change it until just now.
It does prevent certain minmaxing ridiculousness, but it also renders a *ton* of relics/idols/librams pretty much useless. At the same time.... I'm not sure that that's a bad thing. All other equipment slots have stuff that gets obsoleted.... why not relics/idols/librams?

The one thing that it does do which kinda sucks from a gameplay point of view is that it slightly reduces those hybrid classes' versatility. My elemental shaman has one totem that she uses for most raiding purposes: the one that adds damage to her lightning bolts. However, having the +chain heal & +light heal totems macroed to the relevant heal spells made her a more effective hybrid... which was particularly helpful in 5 man situations. I'm not sure if this change makes her bonuses more in-line with other classes (how would you measure that, anyways?) but I do think it's bad to make hybrid classes more rigid in how they're played.

[TheTrunkDr]

It does prevent certain minmaxing ridiculousness, but it also renders a *ton* of relics/idols/librams pretty much useless. At the same time.... I'm not sure that that's a bad thing. All other equipment slots have stuff that gets obsoleted.... why not relics/idols/librams?

The one thing that it does do which kinda sucks from a gameplay point of view is that it slightly reduces those hybrid classes' versatility. My elemental shaman has one totem that she uses for most raiding purposes: the one that adds damage to her lightning bolts. However, having the +chain heal & +light heal totems macroed to the relevant heal spells made her a more effective hybrid... which was particularly helpful in 5 man situations. I'm not sure if this change makes her bonuses more in-line with other classes (how would you measure that, anyways?) but I do think it's bad to make hybrid classes more rigid in how they're played.
You can still be effective you simply have to make the choice and accept the 1.5 seconds that the choice might cost you. You can still heal just fine and the absolutely minuscule amount added by those items isn't going to be an issue for the odd heal you toss out, which is the only time this change will mean much. If you need to do more healing (say the healer in your group died) you can spend the 1.5 seconds and be that minutia more effective at it. Really swapping out your weapon and shield would be a significantly larger improvement and already costs you the GCD.

[Anaxagoras]

You can still be effective you simply have to make the choice and accept the 1.5 seconds that the choice might cost you.

Oh, I definitely agree. This change doesn't gimp us or anything. It just slightly reduces our effectiveness when we're going against the grain of our build. (healing when specced elemental or vice versa)

[Griddle]

Regardless, feral druids aren't viable in PvP
Oshit, I better reroll then. /facepalm

[intruder]

Man this hybrid whining really pisses me off!

Spec healer if you want to heal and spec dps if you plan to dps and spec lolkin if you want to entertain others.

Having to make choices sometimes suck just like IRL.

For the one millionth time: You are not supposed to excel in any since you would make the "pure" classes redudant otherwise. Take top dps spot from rogues and they are not needed in raids anymore etc.

End of story.

Have a nice day.

[Stroker Ace]

Your grasp of the 'hybrid' vs. 'pure' issue is so refreshing.

[Sockpuppet]

Level 30 mounts?

Back in my day, we WALKED to Ironforge. It was thirty miles, uphill in both directions, and we liked it!

[Skipper]

Man this hybrid whining really pisses me off!

Spec healer if you want to heal and spec dps if you plan to dps and spec lolkin if you want to entertain others.

Having to make choices sometimes suck just like IRL.

For the one millionth time: You are not supposed to excel in any since you would make the "pure" classes redudant otherwise. Take top dps spot from rogues and they are not needed in raids anymore etc.

End of story.

Have a nice day.

You are preaching to the choir here (I have a Priest, Rogue and Warrior for mains.) However, understand that there are a HUGE number of hybrids in game.

If they were to take away anything from them at all we'd hear nothing but wah-wah-wah for the rest of the life of the game. As it stands now, if they even miss a patch where they get some lovin' they can start a forum riot.

Your best advice is to just play the game and put the thought of hybrid out of your mind. In WoW, it's not so much "hybrid" than a "more complete class than yours." Also, you have time to level a druid/shaman/pally up before the expansion, which is what I plan on doing. If you can't beat em, join em.

Now before someone somes and starts defending their class, I have no issue with the classes listed above. I crossed that bridge a long time ago.

[z22]

I'm just shocked they nerfed backstab, the Rogue spec that was in desperate need of boosts, ...... and they nerfed it. How's that for incentive to play a backstab Rogue now?

[intruder]

I have / had a 60 druid that was healing speeced so that our main healers could bring dps alts to some raids.

So I have played a hybrid and know something about that.

I could however accept my role as well as my role as HS + summon + debuff SUPPORT bitch being a lock while the class was broken...

[Balasarius]

Well they're not broken anymore, 'locks do more damage than mages.

[intruder]

Well they're not broken anymore, 'locks do more damage than mages.

I know that but this class was broken at US release.
Still I had fun with it and re-rolled lock when I restarted on EU.

It was just an example to illustrate that I played "gimped" classes for years and, had fun and didn't bitch.

When in BC there were no good swords available for my rogue I quit the game until several months later when I found out that some good swords where available now. To me it's sword rogue or nothing.

So vote with your money but don't whine on forums.

[Jag]

If they were to take away anything from them at all we'd hear nothing but wah-wah-wah for the rest of the life of the game. As it stands now, if they even miss a patch where they get some lovin' they can start a forum riot.

Your best advice is to just play the game and put the thought of hybrid out of your mind. In WoW, it's not so much "hybrid" than a "more complete class than yours." Also, you have time to level a druid/shaman/pally up before the expansion, which is what I plan on doing. If you can't beat em, join em.

Now before someone somes and starts defending their class, I have no issue with the classes listed above. I crossed that bridge a long time ago.

I agree. I raid endgame with my Hunter. I could bitch about alot of things, but i've learned to accept it and just play the goddam game.

I've leveled alot of different characters to see how they play. My current project is a Druid and am impressed at how much more developed they are than other classes. But that's ok, if I wanted to play a Druid I would. I just wouldn't bitch about them.

[Gunmetal]

Level 30 mounts?

Back in my day, we WALKED to Ironforge. It was thirty miles, uphill in both directions, and we liked it!

Well you only say that because Paladins got those free mounts....

[MarchHare]

Well you only say that because Paladins got those free mounts....

And not just the 60% speed mounts either! While the rest of us were grinding out 1000g for our epic mounts, those lucky paladins got their 100% speed mounts for free too!

[Nellie]

Love my druid, not too sure what there is about them to whine about unless you're on the receiving end of one in Arena but I still hate Rogues more than anything in PvP.

Ok resto is a bit weedy at doing anything other than resto, but when I want to smack something around I'll wheel the hunter out, I rolled resto for a reason and I like the role that resto Druids fulfil (tank healing basically).

Compared to the Hunter it's a very simple class to play in my opinion, I don't need a spreadsheet to figure out gear or a million macros to play the class to anything approaching its potential although they do make life easier.

[Tankero]

Eh, I just quit the game once it was obvious that it wasn't going to support my play-style at the competitive level.

[Erik Andersson]

And not just the 60% speed mounts either! While the rest of us were grinding out 1000g for our epic mounts, those lucky paladins got their 100% speed mounts for free too!

Was the epic mount free in the beginning? It wasn't free by the time my warlock and paladin became 60 anyway, the actual price depended on some rare materials, but I believe there was gold involved as well.

[jeffd]

The lock Epic mount isn't free - you have to spend a bare minimum of like 250G on it. Assuming you don't farm all the materials (Dark Iron Ore, anyone?) it ends up costing close to the same price as an Epic would cost you anyway (about 750G I think).

[Hanacker]

Two of the warlock mats are BOP and are not consumed. If you have to buy those from the vendor and buy all the other mats off the AH, it's way more expensive than the other epic mounts. If you can get another warlock to let you borrow his items, it might be marginally cheaper.

[RobotPants]

I'm not sure when they changed it since it's been the same way as long as I've played the game, but the Paladin quest for the epic mount involves paying the quest giver like a total of 350g outright. Then of course, there's the cost of the materials you need for the questline and now the pain of getting enough people willing to run you through Scholo.

[Supertanker]

They heavily nerfed the mats required for the Dreadsteed quest a while back. For example, you only need three Black Dragonscales now instead of 35. I know a couple people that have done that quest within the past few months, and they spent a fraction of what I did at 60.

If you need to run Scholo for your pally Charger, find yourself a prot paladin. Mine's in T4 & badge gear, and can solo all of Scholomance pretty easily (though Gandling takes a while with the teleporting, and still hasn't dropped my McDonald's Hat, argh). Many of us still have a soft spot for helping out on that quest.

If you've got a 70 to do daily quests, the gold cost shouldn't bother you. It is a little rough coming up with it for a first 60.

[Gunmetal]

I'm not sure when they changed it since it's been the same way as long as I've played the game, but the Paladin quest for the epic mount involves paying the quest giver like a total of 350g outright. Then of course, there's the cost of the materials you need for the questline and now the pain of getting enough people willing to run you through Scholo.

This is the same argument that certain Paladins made in the past. However, you can totally gather all the mats for the Paladin quest, but it's impossible to gather 1000g.

I'm pretty sure Sockpuppet will agree with March and I on this.....

[Balasarius]

Except epic land mounts only cost 550g now.

[MarchHare]

This is the same argument that certain Paladins made in the past. However, you can totally gather all the mats for the Paladin quest, but it's impossible to gather 1000g.

I'm pretty sure Sockpuppet will agree with March and I on this.....

No doubt he would agree! I anxiously await his return to this thread so he can join us in our opposition to the great injustice of level 60 mount costs.

This might not be the case anymore, but back in 2005 it was proved by a simple theorem that paladins and warlocks had a much easier time acquiring their level 60 mount than other classes who had to pay 1000g.

[Becoming]

Love my druid

Amen!


Compared to the Hunter it's a very simple class to play in my opinion, I don't need a spreadsheet to figure out gear or a million macros to play the class to anything approaching its potential although they do make life easier.
Ame...wait, what?!...Ok, having a 70 druid (tank/dps) and a hunter both decked out in badge and t4 I really have to wonder what you mean by that. What are these mysterious macros you need as a hunter aside from the steady shot spam one that some people use? Being that many hunters can basically play with 2-3 buttons and still outdamage other classes often (depending obviously on group makeup, gear and player skill), where is the hard part again? And how in the name of sweet jebus is it hard to gear a hunter compared to a hybrid class like a druid?

I really hope I simply misunderstood what you were saying there, because as it is currently stated it's a bit on the crazy side imo.

[mouselock]

Your best advice is to just play the game and put the thought of hybrid out of your mind. In WoW, it's not so much "hybrid" than a "more complete class than yours." Also, you have time to level a druid/shaman/pally up before the expansion, which is what I plan on doing. If you can't beat em, join em.

I look forward to your inevitable lamentations that the grass is, indeed, not as green as you thought it was going to be before jumping the fence. (You realize that between your classes you have all the possible jobs covered anyway, right? So the only real reason to roll a hybrid is because you believe they can "do it all" from one spec. G'luck with that working out the way you'd like it to.)

[Lunch of Kong]

those lucky paladins got their 100% speed mounts for free too!

Oh, cool. I hadn't realized the meaning of free had changed to "By doing quests that require 4 hours and a full 5 player complement, and by spending 1200gold on mats purchased from the AH".

[TheTrunkDr]

This might not be the case anymore, but back in 2005 it was proved by a simple theorem that paladins and warlocks had a much easier time acquiring their level 60 mount than other classes who had to pay 1000g.
I managed to skirt around this by getting the AV mount before they transfered the cost from the mount to the training and since I had an epic mount when they added the further training requirements I got them for free. I saved several hundred that way, though the grind back then SUCKED!! I wouldn't have done it if there weren't so many good items from it for my Rogue.

[Pogo]

And how in the name of sweet jebus is it hard to gear a hunter compared to a hybrid class like a druid?

Actually he's correct. Gearing a hunter is quite a bit more complicated due to how the different talent trees have talents that are affected primarily by the two different physical damage stats... Attack Power, Crit Rating, and a combination of both.

An end-game hunter cannot just respec and be at his most effective without also re-gemming his current gear to take advantage of his new spec. The discrepancy with the gems is more prevalent than, say, a warrior, because a hunter only gains 1 attack power per agility point, which at first glance makes 16 attack power gems seem like the obvious choice over 8 agility.

A druid, on the other hand, has very standard gear choices between his 3 specs. While he has more gear to obtain if he wishes to switch specs, it's pretty easy to figure out exactly what he needs for any spec. For feral DPS he wants agility, for bear tanking he wants defense, strength, and agility, for boomkin he wants spell hit, spell damage, and spell crit, and resto druids obviously just favor spirit and healing. These things aren't as obvious for the hunter, there's much more going on behind the scenes.

[Jag]

Ame...wait, what?!...Ok, having a 70 druid (tank/dps) and a hunter both decked out in badge and t4 I really have to wonder what you mean by that. What are these mysterious macros you need as a hunter aside from the steady shot spam one that some people use? Being that many hunters can basically play with 2-3 buttons and still outdamage other classes often (depending obviously on group makeup, gear and player skill), where is the hard part again?

What Nellie is talking about is endgame Hunter raiding. Where Hunter damage is completely dependent on spec, gear and macro based shot rotation (based off formulas you can plug into a spreadsheet. Being a T4 Hunter is no different than running 5mans, hell you can even spec the worst damage tree (Marks) and still do good DPS. Doesn't work that way in the endgame.

As a Sunwell (endgame) Hunter, a decent amount of work and reading has to be done to stay competitive. It's somewhat fun working on the spreadsheets and maximizing damage, but it's not for the casual gamer.

[Tankero]

A druid, on the other hand, has very standard gear choices between his 3 specs. While he has more gear to obtain if he wishes to switch specs, it's pretty easy to figure out exactly what he needs for any spec. For feral DPS he wants agility, for bear tanking he wants defense, strength, and agility, for boomkin he wants spell hit, spell damage, and spell crit, and resto druids obviously just favor spirit and healing. These things aren't as obvious for the hunter, there's much more going on behind the scenes.

This is not entirely true...

Consider the tanking druid that dodges everything due to defense+agility and generates no rage. Or the feral DPS druid that misses a combo finisher because he doesn't have enough +hit. Consider the boomkin that crits once too often and spikes in the aggro meters, or runs out of mana due to max-rank spamming. Consider the healing druid's debate of whether to take the Healing Touch talents or not, whether to go dreamstate or take up a precious Group 1 slot due to his ToL aura.

Even speccing resto for PvP and PvE are two different balls of wax, with critical gear choices that go beyond "Oh, right, the Kodohide set".

[Lietgardis]

A druid, on the other hand, has very standard gear choices between his 3 specs. While he has more gear to obtain if he wishes to switch specs, it's pretty easy to figure out exactly what he needs for any spec. For feral DPS he wants agility, for bear tanking he wants defense, strength, and agility, for boomkin he wants spell hit, spell damage, and spell crit, and resto druids obviously just favor spirit and healing. These things aren't as obvious for the hunter, there's much more going on behind the scenes.

I hope you meant "stamina" instead of "strength" for bears.

Druid gearing can't be that intuitive, because I swear every feral I inspect at the bank has strength and crit gems in their DPS gear. It's like they think they're DPS warriors in fursuits.

[Pogo]

This is not entirely true...

Consider the tanking druid that dodges everything due to defense+agility and generates no rage. Or the feral DPS druid that misses a combo finisher because he doesn't have enough +hit. Consider the boomkin that crits once too often and spikes in the aggro meters, or runs out of mana due to max-rank spamming. Consider the healing druid's debate of whether to take the Healing Touch talents or not, whether to go dreamstate or take up a precious Group 1 slot due to his ToL aura.

Even speccing resto for PvP and PvE are two different balls of wax, with critical gear choices that go beyond "Oh, right, the Kodohide set".

I considered hit rating to be a given, and a druid in defense+agility gear (i.e. all tanking druids I know) generates threat just fine.

Boomkins pulling aggro and running out of mana don't really factor into their gear choices. That's what Boomkins do.

A healing druid wants +healing/+spirit regardless whether or not he's Tree of Life, and Dreamstate isn't a PvE spec anyways. Gear complexity doubles for every class if you're talking about PvP as well, so I didn't really want to mention that.

I hope you meant "stamina" instead of "strength" for bears.
They're both found in abundance on druid tanking gear, but yeah gem slots are almost definitively stamina.

[Tankero]

I think you're confusing the lack of choices with the simplicity of making them.

What you're finally implying is that, in order to play optimally within their spec, druids have to make less decisions. This is true, but only because there's very little to choose from. The way that the druids finally play out their specc isn't quite so simple.

Perhaps we could agree that the complexity in gearing that hunters have is transferred, for druids, into how they play?

[Anaxagoras]

Boomkins pulling aggro and running out of mana don't really factor into their gear choices. That's what Boomkins do.


Unless geared correctly and/or played correctly, of course. But I'm sure you meant to say that & just forgot.

[Becoming]

I would say just from my experience so far that upgrading druid tanking gear and juggling the need for a certain amount of defense (while horribly lacking choice in that area) has been a far greater headache for me than gearing my hunter or making those gear choices.

I mean, I see some hunter-y type gear, and I have several ways to see exactly what I'm getting out of it, but replacing a piece of feral tanking gear usually involves juggling around multiple pieces of gear which can often include gems and enchants (shoulders being a notoriously crappy slot to fill for example and I've gone through 4 sets of those so far). So...still not seeing it, but that's merely judging on what I see so far. I don't see tons of better itemization down the road for druids in T5 and so forth, so I'm not positive how it would really improve in that regard at least as far as my spec is concerned.

On an aside, is there really that big a difference gearing marksman or bm? I can see a survival spec being very gear dependant if you want to min/max expose weakness (a royal pain in the ass), but I just don't see the other two specs being leagues apart, whereas druids can spec to do almost anything. It's just easier to spec between hunter trees with the same gear and not deal with nearly the headache of doing so with a druid in almost every configuration I could imagine. I carry at least 2 complete sets of gear around on my druid at all times, care to guess how many I keep on my hunter?...

I suspect that anyone that hasn't tanked Kara and ZA with a druid and had to gear for it really knows the headache involved in assembling a worthy gear set for it as a feral druid. My hunter though...he's just dps and not really rocket science to gear or play honestly. Keep in mind, that's all just my personal perspective, so I'm positive it won't apply to everyone, but my hunter is what I play when I'm lazy and don't want to think as much.

[Pogo]

Perhaps we could agree that the complexity in gearing that hunters have is transferred, for druids, into how they play?

Yes.

Unless geared correctly and/or played correctly, of course. But I'm sure you meant to say that & just forgot.

I was kind of just being snarky with Boomkins because those two things are their biggest downsides... mana consumption and the lack of threat reduction. Threat reduction is an easy answer... there is the threat reduction to cloak enchant and just watching a threatmeter (which is what you meant by playing correctly).

Unfortunately you can't really gear a Boomkin for increased mana regeneration at all. Their downtime in the FSR is minimal, and there's no real reason for them to stop casting unless there is a threat issue. They wouldn't gem anything for regeneration at the loss of DPS, which is why any high end guild will put a Boomkin with a shadow priest in a caster (or priest/paladin healer) group. Innervate helps too.
On an aside, is there really that big a difference gearing marksman or bm? I can see a survival spec being very gear dependant if you want to min/max expose weakness (a royal pain in the ass), but I just don't see the other two specs being leagues apart, whereas druids can spec to do almost anything. It's just easier to spec between hunter trees with the same gear and not deal with nearly the headache of doing so with a druid in almost every configuration I could imagine. I carry at least 2 complete sets of gear around on my druid at all times, care to guess how many I keep on my hunter?...

Well, you're right that the differences in hunter gearing don't seem very obvious, but when talking about serious raid DPS at the T5+ level, you want to do the min/maxing thing with theorycrafting and all that bullcrap. I guess if you take that out of the picture, then yeah gearing a hunter seems pretty straightforward.

[Nellie]

I really hope I simply misunderstood what you were saying there, because as it is currently stated it's a bit on the crazy side imo.

It's entirely possible that I've missed a whole layer of complexity to my Druid and granted I need to collect 3 different armour sets depending on what I'm required to do but the relative mechanics of actually playing that class and being able to judge whether drop x is better than the kit you're already wearing is much, much more straightforward. I can also go into a 5 main group with no macros or addons whatsoever and heal adequately if less than optimally given the right gear for the instance in question.

If I did the same thing with the hunter my performance would nose dive, without addons I can't even see my autoshot timer. At the point I originally realised I was a Huntard and didn't want to be anymore I nearly doubled my DPS just by starting to understand the principles of how Hunter attack timers worked and realising that despite my resistance to Macroing those attacks that I was never going to put out anywhere near full DPS using a manual weave. I might try again at a later date but right now it's one less thing to have to worry about.

No, it's not rocket science to prepare a hunter properly, but it does take a fair degree of work, investigating and if you really want to be anal about it standing in front of Dr Boom and testing what the Spreadsheets/theorycraft suggests should be the case. The difference between a properly geared and prepared hunter and one that just isn't bad is huge. I regularly outdamage a full T5 geared BM hunter in our raid alliance at the moment and I'm in 2 pieces of T4 + Kara/Heroic gear with a smattering of [the wrong] Badge loot.

On an aside, is there really that big a difference gearing marksman or bm?
No idea, if you raid seriously you spec BM possibly moving to SV once you hit 25 man raid and have the AG for it. Our MM hunter stacks far more AP and less AG than I do, but I'd be a liar if I claimed to have much grasp on the mechanics of MM hunters or where the priority is in terms of loot. That our MM hunter wears mainly PvP gear might yield a clue as to where MM priorities lie.

[Mark Crump]

The only armor sets I swap on my Hunter are the beast lord set for the trap cooldowns.

[Jag]

No idea, if you raid seriously you spec BM possibly moving to SV once you hit 25 man raid and have the AG for it. Our MM hunter stacks far more AP and less AG than I do, but I'd be a liar if I claimed to have much grasp on the mechanics of MM hunters or where the priority is in terms of loot. That our MM hunter wears mainly PvP gear might yield a clue as to where MM priorities lie.

I'm the Survival Hunter for my Sunwell Level guild. The reason you drop MM for Survival after Kara (or earlier) is because Expose Weakness (EW) scales based on gear and Trueshot Aura (TSA) doesn't.

EW is a full raid buff that increases the Attack Power of every single person in the raid. The amount of AP is based soley on the amount of agility the hunter has. ie: more agi = more AP for the raid. Every gem slot I have has +10agi gems except 2 to meet my agi meta requirements.

At the higher gear levels, a Surv hunter can stack enough agility to blow away the static buff of TSA. If Blizz had made TSA scale in someway then MMs may have been raid viable.

You can't really get enough agi from T4 level gear to make it really worth speccing Surv. (yes you can stack pure agi, but you also sacrifice your personal DPS) Gearing Survival is a delicate balancing act, but no harder than any other raid class. Every class/spec has its best in slot items. It's not that hard to figure out.

[Pogo]

Err... I don't think I've ever seen a MM hunter in any raid in TBC.

[Nellie]

I'm the Survival Hunter for my Sunwell Level guild. The reason you drop MM for Survival after Kara (or earlier) is because Expose Weakness (EW) scales based on gear and Trueshot Aura (TSA) doesn't.

EW is a full raid buff that increases the Attack Power of every single person in the raid. The amount of AP is based soley on the amount of agility the hunter has. ie: more agi = more AP for the raid. Every gem slot I have has +10agi gems except 2 to meet my agi meta requirements.

At the higher gear levels, a Surv hunter can stack enough agility to blow away the static buff of TSA. If Blizz had made TSA scale in someway then MMs may have been raid viable.

You can't really get enough agi from T4 level gear to make it really worth speccing Surv. (yes you can stack pure agi, but you also sacrifice your personal DPS) Gearing Survival is a delicate balancing act, but no harder than any other raid class. Every class/spec has its best in slot items. It's not that hard to figure out.

Oh I totally get the benefit of Survival (and the weakness of MM in raids), we're only just starting to seriously take on ZA at the moment and in Kara gear I just don't have the AG at the moment (530ish) to make respeccing Surv worthwhile, I'm not even in full T4 at the moment.

I tend to enchant/gem AG over attack power at the moment, but I guess I should really get the spreadsheets out and test some numbers as I might be better off regemming a few slots AP instead.

Err... I don't think I've ever seen a MM hunter in any raid in TBC.
We've got one MM hunter and me as BM but we're a small "casual" guild and I've only just managed to overtake him performance wise so while the purists can point out that he's doing less raid damage than he could be I don't suspect he'll be going BM any time soon.

[Jag]

Feel free to PM me your Armory if you want any help with picking gear. There is a tremendous amount you can improve without even raiding. Hell, many T6 raiders are using the Badge xbow and Shattered Sun neck.

[Ranulf]

I'm about to finally give up on MM myself. My hunter has been an alt for awhile but I generally can't even break 550dps in kara with mostly kara/s3 gear. I'd like to blame my 450dps in heroics on having to trap a lot but meh. I suppose I should break down and get a good shot macro instead of manually hitting steady/arcane/auto etc..

[Jag]

I'm about to finally give up on MM myself. My hunter has been an alt for awhile but I generally can't even break 550dps in kara with mostly kara/s3 gear. I'd like to blame my 450dps in heroics on having to trap a lot but meh. I suppose I should break down and get a good shot macro instead of manually hitting steady/arcane/auto etc..

Just spec BM for a raid and see how you like it. You may be very surprised.

[Rasputin]

I'd just like to bring this a little more OT and say how fucking awesome it is to have a mount in Hillsbrad, and especially in that bastard land of STV.

[AaronSofaer]

I'm about to finally give up on MM myself. My hunter has been an alt for awhile but I generally can't even break 550dps in kara with mostly kara/s3 gear. I'd like to blame my 450dps in heroics on having to trap a lot but meh. I suppose I should break down and get a good shot macro instead of manually hitting steady/arcane/auto etc..


You need to try at least once using a good shot macro. I know several Hunters in my Guild are pushing 800, 900 DPS as MM in Kara/S3 gear without the badge xbow. One Hunter in my Guild broke 1200 DPS on VR with no 25man gear at all (as BM admittedly). Try out a shot macro.

[Pogo]

I'm about to finally give up on MM myself. My hunter has been an alt for awhile but I generally can't even break 550dps in kara with mostly kara/s3 gear. I'd like to blame my 450dps in heroics on having to trap a lot but meh. I suppose I should break down and get a good shot macro instead of manually hitting steady/arcane/auto etc..

If your shot rotation is correct, then a macro will just allow you to be lazier and still do the same damage, although I don't think staring at your cast bar so you can cast within milliseconds counts as fun so maybe you should try the macro.

You're not using Aimed Shot at all in the rotation, are you?

[Nellie]

You need to try at least once using a good shot macro. I know several Hunters in my Guild are pushing 800, 900 DPS as MM in Kara/S3 gear without the badge xbow. One Hunter in my Guild broke 1200 DPS on VR with no 25man gear at all (as BM admittedly). Try out a shot macro.

agree, our MM guy puts out around 940dps in kara in similar gear but with the badge bow. As bm in kara gear with the wssr I'm just under 1k average, though that does require our feral Druid to make an appearence.

[Skipper]

Jesus that makes me sad as a rogue to see you guys posting DPS that high. I'm happy for you but still ...


Maybe I should make my hunter "alt" into more of a raider.

[AaronSofaer]

Rogues do sick DPS too. :P In fact, one of my Guild's highest DPSers is a Rogue, when we have our Enhancement Shaman playing (and when he's not being too lazy to drop WF...).

Almost all classes, imo, can do very good DPS if played right. Heck, even the Feral Druids and Retadins are out-DPSing me (Shadow Priest) nowadays.

(Except for ones I out-gear, but whatever.)


Rogues definitely need more group support to great DPS, though. Sword Rogues with WF totem and maybe a Battle Shout and LotP = sexy times.

[MarchHare]

Jesus that makes me sad as a rogue to see you guys posting DPS that high. I'm happy for you but still ...


Maybe I should make my hunter "alt" into more of a raider.

Rogues should be doing 1k+ dps with Karazhan gear or equivalent, probably more than that with the latest badge gear. If you want, link your Armory page and I'll offer some pointers.

[Pogo]

Rogues should be doing 1k+ dps with Karazhan gear or equivalent, probably more than that with the latest badge gear. If you want, link your Armory page and I'll offer some pointers.

That seems a little high for T4-equivalent rogues, but I guess if my rogue was wielding swords he might get that high (and also re-gemming all my AP/Agility for +hit)

[intruder]

For reference:
This is my rogue that has some of the best "non 25-men raid" gear I believe.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Hugger

I can push a bit more AP while losing hit swapping some items though.

He is idling in Shatt until WoTLK :p

[Nellie]

Jesus that makes me sad as a rogue to see you guys posting DPS that high. I'm happy for you but still ...

Our rogues are doing a similar amount of damage over the raid in similar (Kara, a bit of T4 and a smattering of badge loot). Overall there's bugger all real difference between us in terms of damage dealt over the course of a raid.

[JonSaunders]

For reference:
This is my rogue that has some of the best "non 25-men raid" gear I believe.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Hugger

I can push a bit more AP while losing hit swapping some items though.

He is idling in Shatt until WoTLK :p

Drop fists and get some s2 swords, you will actually do more damage with the 96odd dps swords than 106dps fists with combat spec. Get 3/3 imp Slice and for the love of god dont take ripost/parry, unless you do some serious pvp there is no real need (and hurts overall pve dps). I have a set of 100+ dps weapons of each of them (dagger from illidan/mh, fists from MH and also the maces), and swords are still far far superior to anything you can get your hands on, why did you think they only put daggers and maces on badge vendors?

Learn to cycle on bosses, that and the added S&D uptime of 2/5 t4 should be doing a 1 point Slice and dice and 5 point rupture on any sort of boss really (1 point S&D giving 1 around 16+ seconds).

For kara/badged player you are in a far better gear set up than when I went into Black temple.

Help the raid leader set up his groups, even blue/t4 geared rogues with the right group can pull 1k dps quite easily. Ehn Shaman is a must, a full 40% of your damage will come from the shaman buffs alone, combining a Dps war/druid/retadin (or even bm huntards) in the same group as a single rogue can raise his dps another 20+ percent. Rogue/dpswar/ehnsham/druid + one other melee/ranged melee class is usually the best way to set a melee group up.

[intruder]

Drop fists and get some s2 swords, you will actually do more damage with the 96odd dps swords than 106dps fists with combat spec. Get 3/3 imp Slice and for the love of god dont take ripost/parry, unless you do some serious pvp there is no real need (and hurts overall pve dps). I have a set of 100+ dps weapons of each of them (dagger from illidan/mh, fists from MH and also the maces), and swords are still far far superior to anything you can get your hands on, why did you think they only put daggers and maces on badge vendors?

Learn to cycle on bosses, that and the added S&D uptime of 2/5 t4 should be doing a 1 point Slice and dice and 5 point rupture on any sort of boss really (1 point S&D giving 1 around 16+ seconds).

For kara/badged player you are in a far better gear set up than when I went into Black temple.

Help the raid leader set up his groups, even blue/t4 geared rogues with the right group can pull 1k dps quite easily. Ehn Shaman is a must, a full 40% of your damage will come from the shaman buffs alone, combining a Dps war/druid/retadin (or even bm huntards) in the same group as a single rogue can raise his dps another 20+ percent. Rogue/dpswar/ehnsham/druid + one other melee/ranged melee class is usually the best way to set a melee group up.

Hm well I had the Kazzak sword and the PVP OH before the new badge loot. In fact I stopped playing WoW for some months after I realized that when hitting 70 there weren't any good swords available at all (since Kara was still way to hard for my guild).
Back in BWL I was always top dps as sword rogue and smoked those dagger ones the longer a fight lasted due to "white damage".

Not raiding anymore though but I agree with your remarks concerning raid strategy. When played focused there is not much that can compete with a proper equipped and buffed sword rogue in a good group (WF shammy, fury warrior).

Riposte is great for grinding mobs. Wouldn't have got it if still raiding though.

[Anaxagoras]

I would say just from my experience so far that upgrading druid tanking gear and juggling the need for a certain amount of defense (while horribly lacking choice in that area) has been a far greater headache for me than gearing my hunter or making those gear choices.

Since defense does so little for druids (they don't get parry or Shield rating from it, effectively) resilience can be really helpful in becoming non-crittable. Point for point, it's the best buy for becoming non-crittable.

[Skipper]

Rogues do sick DPS too. :P In fact, one of my Guild's highest DPSers is a Rogue, when we have our Enhancement Shaman playing (and when he's not being too lazy to drop WF...).

Almost all classes, imo, can do very good DPS if played right. Heck, even the Feral Druids and Retadins are out-DPSing me (Shadow Priest) nowadays.

(Except for ones I out-gear, but whatever.)


Rogues definitely need more group support to great DPS, though. Sword Rogues with WF totem and maybe a Battle Shout and LotP = sexy times.


Trust me, for me I'm sure it's part gear and part me not doing it right. I haven't raided heavily in about 3 months now but my armory is below. If I were to jump back in I would work on my weapons again asap, there are much better alternatives now. I topped at about 750dps max. And that was with some pretty serious raid buffing.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Windrunner&n=Shakey

[intruder]

Trust me, for me I'm sure it's part gear and part me not doing it right. I haven't raided heavily in about 3 months now but my armory is below. If I were to jump back in I would work on my weapons again asap, there are much better alternatives now. I topped at about 750dps max. And that was with some pretty serious raid buffing.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Windrunner&n=Shakey

Yeah with 200-300 badges you could pimp your char a lot.
Also "Belt of Shadows" is accessible to non-raiders now since "Heart of Darkness" out of Hijal is not BOP anymore.
I paid around 1000g + mats for mine shortly before the BOP change.
The weapons could be accessed via PVP (which I hate).

[Skipper]

I look forward to your inevitable lamentations that the grass is, indeed, not as green as you thought it was going to be before jumping the fence. (You realize that between your classes you have all the possible jobs covered anyway, right? So the only real reason to roll a hybrid is because you believe they can "do it all" from one spec. G'luck with that working out the way you'd like it to.)

Mouselock I'm sorry I'm just now responding to this, I didn't notice you had replied. I probably came across unclear and snide in what I said, so I'll see if I can expand upon it.

I think that the use of the term "Hybrid" when talking about WoW character classes creates a misconception that they are not "complete" or are somehow "jack of all trades, master of none." While this was true in past MMO's, I don't think it's true in WoW at all. In reference to your comments, I don't for a second think that Druids/Pallies/Shaman can do everything with one spec or with one set of gear. Just as any other class, they spec and dress for the job at hand. What I will argue though, is that a well geared and spec'd person with one of those classes can tank (perhaps not Shaman), heal, or dps just as good as any other class. They are not gimped in any way. Pallies and Druids in particular are indeed a "more complete" class in that when properly spec'd and gear for a job, can take one of three roles instead of just two as with some other classes. It also explains some of the overwhelming popularity of those two classes.

So my comment about "more complete class" than the three I chose. Yes I think they are. I'm not complaining that I can't do any job required with the classes I chose to level. Note however that I leveled three different characters in order to do each function.

[Skipper]

Yeah with 200-300 badges you could pimp your char a lot.
Also "Belt of Shadows" is accessible to non-raiders now since "Heart of Darkness" out of Hijal is not BOP anymore.
I paid around 1000g + mats for mine shortly before the BOP change.
The weapons could be accessed via PVP (which I hate).

Thank you for the tips bud. The belt is indeed available to me now. I could also bump my +hit quite a bit more (before totally gimping on AP.)

[AaronSofaer]

intruder, have you considered the Nyn'jah's boots to replace the Moroes boots? A little bit more AP is far from useless. :D

Also, epic gems with badges, whoo!

[intruder]

intruder, have you considered the Nyn'jah's boots to replace the Moroes boots? A little bit more AP is far from useless. :D

Also, epic gems with badges, whoo!

Yes that would have been the next steps but I couldn't stomach those endless badge runs anymore and that's why I quit until WoTLK.

You should know I had to outfit a lock, too with badge gear:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Urab

Some days I ran 2-3 instances on each char for badges. Often the daily one right after another. There is only so much you can endure Botanica twice each day.

[Gunmetal]

Speaking of badges, they appear to no longer be soulbound items in the WotLK Beta. I don't know if they'll be changed before WotLK comes out or not, but I've been very tempted to turn my stack into Nether Vortex/Epic Gems and sell them off. I'd like an epic flyer for my main alt

[JonSaunders]

They were talking about items that are transferable between characters on the account (think it was called legacy items), I think the badge system is going to work that way.

I like the idea of killing bosses on my main to equip my alt (after my main ofc).

[Skipper]

Wow ... that would be nice indeed. Hell, Kara runs might actually start back up again.

[Supertanker]

Also "Belt of Shadows" is accessible to non-raiders now since "Heart of Darkness" out of Hijal is not BOP anymore.

Those SSC belts are like a cottage industry now. On my guild's Gruul farming run this past weekend, Maulgar dropped the Belt of Divine Inspiration. We sharded it because literally every dps caster in the raid had a Belt of Blasting.

[AaronSofaer]

They're not from Hyjal, they're from SSC/TK. And yes, they're one heck of an industry; I recently got my Belt patterns from our alt runs with another Guild, and they make me quite a bit of gold. :D

[Anaxagoras]

It also explains some of the overwhelming popularity of those two classes. [Paladin and Druid]


Those classes aren't the most popular. In fact, the most popular classes are:

1) Hunter (by a large margin)
2) Rogue
3) Warrior

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

[Ranulf]

If your shot rotation is correct, then a macro will just allow you to be lazier and still do the same damage, although I don't think staring at your cast bar so you can cast within milliseconds counts as fun so maybe you should try the macro.

You're not using Aimed Shot at all in the rotation, are you?

No, aimed shot only if I need the debuff or trying for a crit on a MD for a tank. SS, auto, SS, arcane weaved in when I can. One issue is I'm still about .5-1% short on the +hit requirement to not miss.

On rogues, t4 gear should get you in high 700s-1000 as combat swords. Though my rotation on my rogue isn't always great either heh.

[Skipper]

Those classes aren't the most popular. In fact, the most popular classes are:

1) Hunter (by a large margin)
2) Rogue
3) Warrior

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

I stand corrected sir, thank you for the link. I would only question is that everything as seen for the lifetime of WoW or is that recent. Significant changes for those classes happened when TBC rolled out. I would think the popularity would be higher.

[Stroker Ace]

Druids *have* increased dramatically in popularity in the last two years. They used to be far below 10% if memory serves.

[Tankero]

Resto druids became a damned near necessity for Arena competitiveness, ferals became viable tanks in PvE, and boomkins can dance while somewhat melting face. The class suddenly began offering so much more than "yet another healer" to a raid.

So, their numbers went up. They are "overrepresented" in the arena when resto specc, and they are "competent" all the way up to T5 content as tanks and magic DPSers.

Feral DPS... not so much, but the perks of the crit aura, Innervate and Combat Rez means that they're not all that painful to bring along as Cool Cats.

[AaronSofaer]

Feral DPS is kinda meh, but they have so much utility other than their DPS itself (which isn't all -that- bad, they do better than Shadow Priests) that they're worth bringing.

Not only do they have LotP/Innervate/Battle Rez, but they also can tank when needed (which is pretty awesome for Hyjal, because it means you don't go from 4 tanks to 1 tank and 3 useless people on some of the bosses).

[intruder]

Smart druid players were the ones that popped into bear even back in MC when some off-tank screwed up or wasn't healed and grabbed that mob.

They really took off after ZG /AQ was introduced into the game. Hexxer v 1.0 was nearly damn impossible without a druid tank + they rocked at the AQ 20 end boss who was a pain without them.
We managed to snag server first and 2nd on those bosses due to our kickass feral druids that we had very long already.

[Rasputin]

Feral DPS is kinda meh, but they have so much utility other than their DPS itself (which isn't all -that- bad, they do better than Shadow Priests) that they're worth bringing.

Not only do they have LotP/Innervate/Battle Rez, but they also can tank when needed (which is pretty awesome for Hyjal, because it means you don't go from 4 tanks to 1 tank and 3 useless people on some of the bosses).

And a couple more stuns can't hurt either.

I find myself having to heal a lot, but the utility is great to have. Sadly, it typically means bringing at least two sets of gear to any instance just in case I need to switch roles, either situationally or because of what the party needs going in.

[Tankero]

Gearing feral druids was a motherfucking pain back then.

Yes, MotherFucking.

It was pieces of off-set leather (some of which had uncommonly high armor) such as the Boots of the Shadow Flame...

... Which dropped from Nefarian.

There was the Unyielding Mace from Dire Maul, the only weapon with armor in it, and the only weapon that damn-near accidentally benefited from the multiplicative armor bonus.

Around the time that AQ came up, the concept of Feral Attack Power was introduced, and AQ20 had the first set that benefited feral druids (almost) specifically.

[Becoming]

Since defense does so little for druids (they don't get parry or Shield rating from it, effectively) resilience can be really helpful in becoming non-crittable. Point for point, it's the best buy for becoming non-crittable.

It can be a good filler for sure, but it's not that much more crit reduction (druids also get dodge from defense don't forget, and that's also quite important). So for filler stuff like shoulders pvp gear isn't bad to fill the gap, but for serious tanking with a druid a lot of the pvp gear just isn't up to snuff stat-wise and mostly doesn't hold a candle to pve tanking gear.

That, and I'm pretty burned out on pvp in any case as I tend to find it fairly mind numbing these days.

If you want to go psycho with numbers, this article (http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/01/29/shifting-perspectives-hit-rating-expertise-and-defense-skill-f/) might be up your alley (defense and resilience talk near the bottom).

[Thomas Wilde]

That's actually a known issue, IIRC. There really isn't much in the way of PVE tanking shoulders for a feral druid up until they kill High King Maulgar. A lot wind up with the S2/S3 shoulders as a result.

[Tankero]

And 425 defense is a requirement to tank, for example, Prince. Even if a druid cannot block or parry (even if bear mobs can, blah), the point of Defense is to push crushing blows off the hit table altogether. In becoming crush-immune, druid tanks are able to compare favorably against warriors, given the 'non-spiky' flow of damage.

Edit: What druid tanks DO lack, however, is any viable "Ohshit" moves. No last stand, no pots (without fancy, risky macros) and no shield-wall. Their tanking is purely stat-based, and defense plays a huge role in that.

[Erik Andersson]

And 425 defense is a requirement to tank, for example, Prince. Even if a druid cannot block or parry (even if bear mobs can, blah), the point of Defense is to push crushing blows off the hit table altogether. In becoming crush-immune, druid tanks are able to compare favorably against warriors, given the 'non-spiky' flow of damage.

Edit: What druid tanks DO lack, however, is any viable "Ohshit" moves. No last stand, no pots (without fancy, risky macros) and no shield-wall. Their tanking is purely stat-based, and defense plays a huge role in that.

I assume you are talking about crit-immune since crush-immunity for a druid means they can't be hit at all. At the end of T6 I was passively crush-immune with my warrior, but that was because of block, I didn't even have to use Shield Block on Illidan!

I'm not so sure that defense plays a huge role in druid tanking since it's a horrible stat compared to agility for actual avoidance. All you want it for is crit-immunity, and in many cases it might be better to use less than 425 def and use resilience for the rest. I agree about the lack of LS/SW, but don't forget about Barkskin. It may sound risky, but it's actually usable without macros in almost all the boss fights in BT/Sunwell.

[JM]

I thought druids could pot in bear form now?

[fuzzyslug]

My wife, who hit level 30 the other day, got her first mount. I approve of the patch. :)

[LesJarvis]

I thought druids could pot in bear form now?

They can't, but you can make a macro that will shift you out of bear form, drink a pot/use a healthstone and shift you back into form in one press. I wouldn't even qualify it as risky. My understanding is that In WotLK they'll be able to use them in bear form, though.

[JonSaunders]

Feral DPS is kinda meh, but they have so much utility other than their DPS itself (which isn't all -that- bad, they do better than Shadow Priests) that they're worth bringing.

Not only do they have LotP/Innervate/Battle Rez, but they also can tank when needed (which is pretty awesome for Hyjal, because it means you don't go from 4 tanks to 1 tank and 3 useless people on some of the bosses).

Don't really agree with the meh part, our feral is reaching over 1600 dps in Bt regulary, compared to my fully kitted rogue doing 1800-1900 (still lack s3/4 Glaive for main hand :() and our top hunters doing 2000-2200 (depending on fights). We have very little SW gear atm.

[AaronSofaer]

Over 1600 regularly? That's pretty impressive. The highest I've ever seen from a Feral Druid with a solid amount of Sunwell gear was in the 1800 range, with 100% Heroism uptime and the perfect group.

On the other hand, you give that to a Rogue in equivalent gear and he'll do 2200 DPS at least.

[Ranulf]

And 425 defense is a requirement to tank, for example, Prince. Even if a druid cannot block or parry (even if bear mobs can, blah), the point of Defense is to push crushing blows off the hit table altogether. In becoming crush-immune, druid tanks are able to compare favorably against warriors, given the 'non-spiky' flow of damage.

Edit: What druid tanks DO lack, however, is any viable "Ohshit" moves. No last stand, no pots (without fancy, risky macros) and no shield-wall. Their tanking is purely stat-based, and defense plays a huge role in that.

The who/what now? Its 415 defense for druid crit immune. We have an oh shit heal, that hey can crit! Its on a 3min cooldown and only effective if you aren't rage starved tho. It also usually only heals for 2k over a few seconds. Our other moves would be our trinkets. "Bearwall" being moroes trinket plus badge of tenacity or some combo like that.

[Tankero]

No, Frenzied regen no longer crits, doesn't scale, and isn't going to tick for enough to stop you from dying to bosses. 415 is crit immune, 425 was the number to be CRUSH-immune, which is another mechanic altogether. You needed to push your avoidance pretty gosh-darn high to get to that point.

Edit : Crush-immunity for bear druids is mitigating the damage from the "crushing" level (which was 3x damage, IIRC) to a normal hit. Yes, that's 101.something % avoidance, but it's reachable, though it doesn't mean you're not going to get hit.

[LesJarvis]

No, Frenzied regen no longer crits, doesn't scale, and isn't going to tick for enough to stop you from dying to bosses. 415 is crit immune, 425 was the number to be CRUSH-immune, which is another mechanic altogether. You needed to push your avoidance pretty gosh-darn high to get to that point.

Edit : Crush-immunity for bear druids is mitigating the damage from the "crushing" level (which was 3x damage, IIRC) to a normal hit. Yes, that's 101.something % avoidance, but it's reachable, though it doesn't mean you're not going to get hit.

Donny, you're out of your element. 415 defense grants crit immunity for a Druid with 3/3 Survival of the Fittest. Crush immunity comes from pushing crushing blows off the hit table, which requires 102.4% avoidance against a raid boss. This is reachable for a druid with a dedicated dodge set and a lot of buffs, but is generally not worthwhile. Crushing blow immunity has nothing to do with how much of a crushing blow you can mitigate with armor.

Edit: also, crushing blows are 150% damage, not 3x.

[Tankero]

Except that THAT is what I posted in the last page....

Additionally, it is worthwhile if you're running with undergeared healers in a 'starting up' guild.

[LesJarvis]

Except that THAT is what I posted in the last page....

No, it's not. You posted this:

And 425 defense is a requirement to tank, for example, Prince. Even if a druid cannot block or parry (even if bear mobs can, blah), the point of Defense is to push crushing blows off the hit table altogether. In becoming crush-immune, druid tanks are able to compare favorably against warriors, given the 'non-spiky' flow of damage.

Which is just nonsense. The 425 number is meaningless, and the point of defense is not to push crushing blows off the hit table, since that would require more defense rating than is currently attainable. Druids who achieve 102.4% avoidance do it with agility and dodge rating, not defense.

Additionally, it is worthwhile if you're running with undergeared healers in a 'starting up' guild.

No, it's not.

[Tankero]

Perhaps I have been misinformed on the exact numbers; my initial point was to state that defense is useful for druid tanks, even if block and parry aren't possible.

On the matter of whether being crush-immune is useful or not, that depends. The point would be to make the healing easier and more predictable, given that the healers supporting you are not going to be able to deal with sudden damage spikes very well. One of the dragons (so to speak) being chased while I did my tanking, was both crit and crush immunity on feral druid tanks, as that was seen as the only field where they could "compete" with warrior tanks.

Whether or not that was wise is something I don't have the tools to discuss, given that I stopped playing a while ago.

[LesJarvis]

You're conflating crit immunity and crushing blow immunity. Crit immunity should be one of the first priorities of any tank, if not the first priority. You do this by reducing your chance to be crit by 5.6% with talents, resilience, or defense in any combination.

Crushing blow immunity comes from removing the boss's ability to score a normal hit on you from the hit table. Paladins and Warriors can do this easily with skills like shield block, redoubt, and holy shield, all of which raise their chance to block by a large amount, and even then they can be crushed if a mob attacks fast enough to eat all the charges of their block ability. Passive crush immunity (i.e. without using a special ability) is possible for Warriors (and I assume Paladins) in late tier 6 gear gear. It's not that meaningful, though, particularly since as soon as they set foot in SWP their dodge drops by 20% and their chance to be hit increases by 5% due to Sunwell Radiance (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=45769).

Because druids can't block (the only avoidance move where you still take damage,) crush immunity is the same thing as hit immunity for them. A crush immune druid, by definition, will take no physical damage at all. More information on crushing blows is available from WoWWiki:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Crushing_blow

[Tankero]

Then the point still stands, if I understand you correctly.

One thing that I didn't had very clear is the nature of the hit table. I thought "crushing" would've been at the top, so that cutting far enough into it would remove it from the hit table, leaving only 'normal' hits.

[Erik Andersson]

Instead, a druid with 85% effective avoidance will either be crushed or avoid the attack entirely.