A (Real-Life) Puzzle

[Phil_Stein]

We had some unusual events here quite recently. I'm curious what others make of the situation and would have done in our shoes. I will present the initial situation in this post, and then the conclusion a bit later. (I'm not looking for advice - the situation is resolved, but rather, I'm curious what others would have thought of and how they'd have reacted in this situation).

I work out of the house, and usually get up a bit later than my wife and our 3 kids. When I come downstairs in the morning (a few minutes after 9, I think), everyone was gone. A few minutes later, my wife was back, with the kids, as well as two other kids (brothers, apparently). I thought I recognize the older boy, and perhaps the younger. The older boy is about my boy's age (7).

My wife explained that the neighbor kid had called our house, and said he'd woken up and no adults were in the house. Then he'd called our house, and my wife had gone over there, found no adult present, and brought them back (leaving a note on the door). She was in the midst of making waffles for all the kids (the neighbors kids hadn't had breakfast).

It took a bit more discussion (somewhat delicate as the kids were underfoot and we didn't want to fully discuss the situation in front of them) and investigation to assess things a bit more:

1) We didn't know these kids well, but they had played with our kids a bit. I was surprised that this 7 year old either knew our number or knew how to look it up. Apparently, they didn't have too many other playmates in the neighborhood.

2) They had apparently spent the night at their grandma's house. The grandma had recently moved to the neighborhood and lived alone. The parents had lived in the neighborhood longer (I'm not sure how long), and lived in a different house in the neighborhood. The grandma's house and the parents' house were somewhat close to each other, and about 200-400 yards from our house.

3) I'd met two adults who I think were the grandma and mom one time, walking in the neighborhood with their kids. They seemed protective of the kids - they left them at our house to play, but wrote down the address and took typical protective caution about it (not knowing us well). The grandma and mom were apparently of Jamaican descent (unusual in our mostly white, suburban neighborhood), and the grandma was a fairly heavy accent of some kind.

4) The two parents were both apparently at work. The grandma had no car and so it would seem unlikely she would have gone anywhere far.

5) When arriving at the grandma's house (with our 3 kids in tow), my wife had wanted to look inside the house, but the older brother had shut the door on the way out, locking it. My wife checked the back door (doors?), but could not get in, and did not get a response. The older brother said he had checked the house, and not found his grandma. The older brother was clearly concerned. My wife checked with a couple of neighbors, and left a note on the front door explaining the situation and providing our phone # and address.

6) My wife was busy making breakfast for the kids and now had 5 young kids to keep an eye on. I got the address of the house, and walked down to check things out on my own. But I couldn't find the house, and returned. I was now getting nervous - a lot of bad possibilities passing through my mind, including some that might be time sensitive (i.e. I didn't want to dilly-dally too much).

7) I questioned the older boy closely, and got his parents' and the grandma's address. I double checked with my wife for a more accurate description of the grandma's house's location. Then I went back (driving this time). At the grandma's house, I saw my wife's note on the door, knocked and rang, and went around back to knock on the back door on their deck (feeling a bit creepy entering the gate and going into the backyard of someone I didn't really know.) I went to the parent's house - no answer. I briefly drove down one stretch of the neighborhood to look for any sign of the grandma walking around (or lying on the sidewalk). No sign of her, but I didn't want to drive the whole neighborhood (time), and considered that to be unlikely to be fruitful.

8) The fact that the grandma was apparently new to this country made things more complicated - it was possible that she had a different set of cultural understandings about leaving kids alone, or had in some other way acted differently than how we might expect. We were struggling with a desire to address the situation quickly if speed was needed, with a desire not to escalate things to "authorities" if not needed, as that would make things sticky, and possibly create a lot of headaches for a grandma and possibly others who might not be familiar with our child welfare systems. My one remembered interaction with the parent/grandma had indicated that they *were* rather protective.

9) All in all, none of the reasonable explanations seemed super-likely. Each of the main possible pathways carried downside risks (i.e. if I acted on assumption A, but in fact B was the case, my actions would have possibly/likely caused bad results).

By this point, about an hour (maybe a shade more) had elapsed since the neighbor kid had called my wife.

===

So, what do you think? What would you do?

[Tankero]

Go in the other direction. The one thing that american driving and city design does to someone who has recently arrived is fuck with their sense of distance. Five minutes in a car in any other country equates to fifteen minutes walking. In the United States, it works out to be an hour or so.

Given this information, I would go towards the nearest store/supermarket in search for the grandma while leaving the children under the supervision of my wife and cat. If this search reveals to be fruitless, then the older child (who must've had a call sheet to reach the neighbors) might also have the phone number for the parents work phone. They should, in fact, be called while someone is driving down to the market.

[Kraaze]

Oh that's a fun one.

I don't know the laws of your state, but in my state I have to call the authorities on that one or if anything comes out later about those kids getting neglected I'd have legal liability for not reporting the situation. I think it's even a felony.

So I'd probably have reluctantly made that call, especially after an hour elapsed in which nobody was apparently looking for these children.

[Phil_Stein]

Tankero - our neighborhood is quite a ways from places to shop. You'd either have to follow a weird ~.6 mile path that would involve cutting through some woods and possibly bypassing a fence or two, or go about a mile along the (hilly) roads, some portions of which don't have sidewalks. Conceivable, but not very likely, IMO (and in any case, this thought didn't occur to me).

[spiffy]

Check the children for blood, poison, dirty hands, large amounts of cash money or other signs they have disposed of the adults and are heading off on the road for adventure.

[Phil_Stein]

Oh, and to add (just a little) to the situation:

I guess my boy had ridden his scooter down on the initial trip to get the kids, and had in turn, let the older neighbor boy ride the scooter a bit on the way back. The neighbor had fallen and scraped up his leg just a bit.

Yes, we have these kids who aren't ours, who we don't know well (and whose parents we've barely met), we've had them for ~an hour, and have already managed to allow one of them to get injured (in a minor way).

[soondifferent]

Grab some lawn chairs, go wait with the kids in front of the Grand mother's house?

[charmtrap]

Cops. First thing. They're much better equipped than you are to find out what happened to the parents.

Also, who needs the possible lawsuit if some harm comes to these kids on your watch?

[Robert Sharp]

I probably would have called the non-emergency police number, told them the situation and gotten advice from them. They could have called and found the grandmother or possibly had some other means to find someone. If it turned out that it was just a big misunderstanding or mistake on the parents part, no harm done. You apologize for overreacting (even though you didn't) and ask them to give you some cell phone/contact numbers in case something like that happens again.

[Funkula]

Well, if I had kids, I don't know what my reaction would be, except that I'd probably have a better idea what to do. As is, the only thing I could do is call the police immediately and wait outside with the kids until they arrived, since everyone knows that any single guy who acknowledges that kids exist is just a CHILD MOLESTER.

Don't keep us in suspense, Phil! Tell us how it came out. Mark it as a SPOILER if you want to get more reactions.

[Jon Rowe]

I would have called the cops. (non emergency) and explained the situation. It is possible that their grandmother could be in physical peril, or even in jail.

[Tankero]

What scares me about calling the police is that, if the people at the other end of that call are inflexible, it could activate all sort of more-harmful-than-helpful statutes. Legislation on these subjects always assume that every case is the worst case scenario right off the bat. Shotgun surgery.

[Sidd_Budd]

Just for general information: What were the children's best guesses as to why grandma wasn't around? Do they stay with her every day in the summer? How often does she leave them alone, & how long is it?

General order in which I'd do things:
I would call the parents; any 7 year old who can figure out the phone number of a kid he's played with only a few times should know mom & dad's number, or place of business.

Ask kids about any health issues of the grandmother (in a sensitive way). If they remember overnight hospital stays, or parent worry about health, I'd follow Robert Sharp's suggestion: call the non-emergency police number & give them the situation.

If they don't remember any health problems, and my wife was cool with it, I'd put a note on the front door of the kid's house as well, & keep the kids until noonish. If no sign of grandma by then, go to Robert's suggestion above.

[Jon Rowe]

What scares me about calling the police is that, if the people at the other end of that call are inflexible, it could activate all sort of more-harmful-than-helpful statutes. Legislation on these subjects always assume that every case is the worst case scenario right off the bat. Shotgun surgery.

I think if explained well, they would be fine, and I will bet that the parents would thank you for going to the cops and doing the right thing. (They are not in the wrong here, they trusted the grandmother with custody, so the parents are not at fault)

From your description it sounded like she was an immigrant.. is it possible she is illegal and is sitting in a deportation tank?

[Phil_Stein]

The older brother said they had stayed overnight at the grandma's before.

I don't think he offered (nor did I ask) why his grandma wasn't home.

My wife said that when she picked them up (or shortly after), the older brother had been crying. When I was talking to him, he seem lucid and intelligent. While my mind was certainly racing towards bad-news type explanations, I was reluctant to press the boy too much along this line of questioning. I didn't want to create unnecessary trauma for the kids.

Also, I asked the boy about how he'd looked for his grandma. (I think, stuff like "Did you look in the bathroom?"). It sounded like he'd done a reasonable job, though of course I assumed a ~7 year old boy would not likely have been ultra-thorough.

[Dirt]

How is asking about the Grandmother traumatic? It's an essential piece of information that could lead to a timely resolution or a decisive course of action.

[Anaxagoras]

How is asking about the Grandmother traumatic? It's an essential piece of information that could lead to a timely resolution or a decisive course of action.

Lord help me, but I agree with Dirt. Your actions are completely inexplicable to me, Phil. You ask the kids questions, try to figure out what the hell's going on, and if they can't or won't give you enough information, you call the authorities. Not to get anyone in trouble, but to minimize your own liability. At the same time, go ahead & keep doing what you were doing: take care of the 2 kids as best you can until the authorities get there.

Why wouldn't you ask the kids for information?

[Phil_Stein]

"Do you think your grandma might be dead in the bathtub?" was not the first question I wanted to ask the kids.

Again, this was a bit of a puzzle of balancing different risks. One risk was the risk of traumatizing the kids unnecessarily...

[Dirt]

How was this puzzle resolved?

[Hanzii]

I don't know when I would have called the authorties - probably by now since in cases like these our police is stil the friendly copper looking after lost kids (the certainly were when my the four year old dissapeared from the shop... talk about aging 10 years in one hour). But differences of culture and all that.

I really am curious about this:
Not to get anyone in trouble, but to minimize your own liability.

You're the third (I think) to say something along these lines. I know foreigners makes jokes about sue happy Americans with no ability to take personal responsibility, i alo know that many get it as wrong as when ordinary Americans try their hand at European geography ("hur hur hot McDonalds coffee" is the norm), but is this really something to be worried about?

Phil tries to be a good samaritan and helps the best he know, and you seriously find him in peril of litigation if he does something wrong or not fast enough?! Is this how things are... or just some people worrying too much?
I'm relly honestly curious.

[Robert Sharp]

Well, certainly you wouldn't put images in their fragile minds. But still, you could press them a bit without going too far. Just ask them how you could get ahold of the grandmother or parents, just to let them know what's going on and that they are at your house.

[Robert Sharp]

I really am curious about this:


You're the third (I think) to say something about these lines. I know foreigners makes jokes about sue happy Americans with no ability to take personal responsibility, i alo know that many get it as wrong as when ordinary Americans try their hand at European geography ("hur hur hot McDonalds coffee" is the norm), but is this really something to be worried about?


The problem isn't from the parents. It's from the authorities. American laws on child abuse and neglect are pretty strict, and as noted above some states have laws against NOT reporting neglect. If these parents are neglectful and Phil has seen signs of it, he may be obligated to report it. IF he does not, he could be held liable by the state or city. That's the worry people are mentioning.

[fire]

That's insane. When I was growing up, neighbors helped each other out all the time -- sometimes without being asked. In danger of litigation? Wow.

[Dean]

Shoot the hostage.

Okay, for real, there would be some serious questioning of the older kid. What's a normal day like for them? You understand about letting strangers into the house, but does he have a house key? Why wouldn't he let you in?

Yes, he's 7, but he had the presence of mind to call you, so you've got to figure out his thought processes.

Then if nothing comes of that, go camp on a front lawn. (Unless it's 98 degrees or something.)

[Dirt]

I'm 35 and when I was living alone, I'd have to call the police. Taking care of them at my place is not an option.

[RickH]

If the 7 y/o can't or won't give you straight answers, get a hold of the authorities ASAP. If something actually has gone terribly wrong, the quicker they're involved, the better.

[Robert Sharp]

That's insane. When I was growing up, neighbors helped each other out all the time -- sometimes without being asked. In danger of litigation? Wow.

I think you are still misunderstanding. The danger isn't so much that he helped the kids. It's that he might not be reporting potential child neglect by those children's parents.

[Phil_Stein]

Alright, I won't let this thread linger too long and go into overanalysis, in part since, in the original situation, things progressed fairly quickly and we didn't spend too much time on analysis.

Broadly, I went through a process of escalating fear that something quite bad was afoot. Initially, things were only mildly unusual (hmm, some kids I don't know well are at our house unusually early), then escalated as my wife filled me in briefly (I didn't have all the facts then), and I walked down to find the house. I was unsuccessful in finding the house that first time, but during the walk was thinking about many bad possibilities and realizing that at least some of those cases (the grandma collapsed somewhere in the house, but still alive), while unlikely, could be time critical if true. But again, I didn't want to create unnecessary trauma for the kids, the parents, the grandma, and perhaps selfishly, myself, in the likelier (IMO) case that this all amounted to nothing. With more information, I made the second trip down, and was unable to get a response at either the grandma's house or the parents' house.

===

Here's the rest of the story:

I questioned the older boy further (IIRC, away from his younger brother). He was able to give me the full names of his mom and dad, and told me where they worked. (Name of a big company with many locations in this area, and name of a community college type place also with a few locations). I guessed that I might be able to locate the mom at the college easier than the dad, and called there (a close location). As I was doing this my wife was getting advice from a friend or two (call the police). But I got ahold of the mom, had a slightly uncomfortable conversation - "Are you XXXXX? Yes. Do you live in YYYYYY [our subdivision]? Why do you ask? [A bit of agitation as I explain.]". I gave her our phone # and address.

I'm still thinking possibly I should have called the police immediately, but now we waited a bit, and in about 5 minutes, got a call from the grandma (who had been reached by the mom, on a cell phone - I think I'd asked the brother but he didn't know cell phone numbers).

The grandma had been working in the garden, which I later found out was apparently in a spot in the backyard not visible from the deck (where I'd gone around back to knock on the back door). I could see about 80% of the backyard from where I'd been, but hadn't thought to go completely around the house. Apparently my wife had done much the same (with kids in tow), ~20-30 minutes earlier, but the grandma had not noticed. The backyard was not very big, but the slope of the hill and/or the deck itself apparently masked this spot.

After a stop at the mom's workplace to get a garage door opener (so the grandma could get back into her house), the grandma and kids were soon reunited.

FWIW, the grandma didn't seem particularly old, and seemed quite lucid - in talking with her afterwards, I didn't notice signs of poor hearing, nor did she say she has hearing issues (though I didn't ask), but who knows? She was warm and friendly, apologetic over the fuss. I think everyone felt a bit embarrassed - the grandma, the older brother for not having found her initially, and my wife and I for not having found her later. Also, I found out the grandma was not from Jamaica, but from Africa (East Africa originally, but other locations more recently).

The ultimate solution seemed unlikely - at least two, and I think three (counting the brother, who may have checked outside) people/parties looked out back and missed the grandma. Furthermore, the grandma was out for a while and one would have thought at some point she'd try go back in the house (the kids had locked her out inadvertantly), and from there, discovered something amiss and hopefully my wife's note on the front door.

So I guess it turned out well that we were slow to escalate things, but I'm not sure that validates my actions - if there HAD been a major health issue or something of that ilk, I would have felt very bad in not escalating more quickly. Perhaps even the telling this story is an example of survivorship bias, as I doubt I'd have been likely to tell the story publicly if the results had been really bad. I don't know - you can't run to the cops or other authorities every time the neighbor kid has the hiccups, but on the other hand, you need to distinguish the times when it IS important to escalate things. While the results this time were good, that doesn't necessarily mean I made the right decisions - I could have just gotten "lucky".

[Kraaze]

The problem isn't from the parents. It's from the authorities. American laws on child abuse and neglect are pretty strict, and as noted above some states have laws against NOT reporting neglect. If these parents are neglectful and Phil has seen signs of it, he may be obligated to report it. IF he does not, he could be held liable by the state or city. That's the worry people are mentioning.

Exactly. The government is very messed up in this regard and unfortunately since grandstanding about some tough-on-crime laws is a great way for a politician to get a quick popularity boost we keep getting more and more insane and draconian laws in this regard.

A child neglect charge is especially scary to anyone who is a parent, even if it happens because of something like Phil's story that involves other people's children, because then the state can remove the parent's own children and place them in foster care. In theory of course some nice case worker will make an informed recommendation to a judge as to whether that is necessary. In reality the overallocated and underpaid case workers need to make quick determinations and can make some very bad mistakes.

Hanzii, if your situation ever happened to me the LAST thing I'd do is call the police.

[ElGuapo]

Call the parents. If the kids don't know the parent's numbers or where they work so you can look it up, call the police. It's nice to be a good neighbor but this is what the police are for.

My first inclination is that the grandmother is dead in the house somewhere. I can't imagine why she'd just leave the kids there unless they were sleeping and she went out for an errand/walk really early and got lost or delayed on the way back.

[Phil_Stein]

If the kid hadn't been able to tell me where his parents worked and/or I otherwise couldn't have reached a parent in fairly short order, I probably would have called the police. Again, I was getting some serious bad vibes about the situation as I thought about it more and as more time elapsed since my wife had gotten the kids.

On the other hand, if child services gets involved, while the end result is likely to be ok, it's possible that things could be rough in the short term, especially for a grandma not very familiar with US laws. (I wasn't sure how long the parents have been here.)

Here's a story (http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/Americas/March-April-08/Father-Buys-Liquor-for-Young-Son-at-Baseball-Game.html) of Child Protective Services gone a bit too far (IMO)...

[Anaxagoras]

Phil tries to be a good samaritan and helps the best he know, and you seriously find him in peril of litigation if he does something wrong or not fast enough?! Is this how things are... or just some people worrying too much?
I'm relly honestly curious.

Yes, this is how it really is. Idle threats of "I'll sue your ass!!!" are extremely common, and making those threats a reality is less common, but still possible. Generally if you look competent and can make the case to the person standing in front of you that they don't have a leg to stand on if it comes to a lawsuit, then a lawsuit generally isn't filed. Fighting off a court case even when there's very little ground for it is both stressful & expensive.

You make the point about being a good samaritan, but often if you're helping someone, it's probably someone in need.... and they often want/need a scapegoat for their problems. Winning X dollars seems to salve these people's egos. Given that the situation described by Phil involved non-Americans, I don't know how much risk he might have been. But it is a certain mindset of self-defense that you get in.

[Kraaze]

Yes, this is how it really is. Idle threats of "I'll sue your ass!!!" are extremely common, and making those threats a reality is less common, but still possible. Generally if you look competent and can make the case to the person standing in front of you that they don't have a leg to stand on if it comes to a lawsuit, then a lawsuit generally isn't filed. Fighting off a court case even when there's very little ground for it is both stressful & expensive.

You make the point about being a good samaritan, but often if you're helping someone, it's probably someone in need.... and they often want/need a scapegoat for their problems. Winning X dollars seems to salve these people's egos. Given that the situation described by Phil involved non-Americans, I don't know how much risk he might have been. But it is a certain mindset of self-defense that you get in.

As the second most paranoid person in this thread, I have to state that I think you are way out there in your fear of liability on this one. Unless you are seriously wealthy enough to tempt people to try to find flimsy reasons to sue you I would have no fear of being sued for helping somebodies children. I would have fear of the cops and draconian child neglect laws, but not of being sued.

[Anaxagoras]

As the second most paranoid person in this thread, I have to state that I think you are way out there in your fear of liability on this one. Unless you are seriously wealthy enough to tempt people to try to find flimsy reasons to sue you I would have no fear of being sued for helping somebodies children. I would have fear of the cops and draconian child neglect laws, but not of being sued.

Could be. I wasn't this paranoid until I lived in Oklahoma for awhile, and saw white trash in all its glory. After seeing the efforts those people will go to in order to get back at anyone at all... I have become paranoid of litigation. (They're also fond of the "slash the tires" style of anonymous revenge, but there really isn't anything you can do about that, so I don't worry about it.)

[Phil_Stein]

I'm not particularly paranoid about the lawsuit angle.

While in this case, we had the kids without the parents' permission or knowledge, I very much doubt we'd be faulted by the parents or by a legal authority (so long as we acted reasonably, and of course, we were trying to locate the grandma and/or parents).

More broadly, we often have neighbor kids at our house, and our kids are often at neighbors' houses. I don't think things have changed much in this regard since I was a kid years ago. Does this create some possibility of legal problems? I guess, but the chances seem slim to me, and compared to the alternative (basically, don't allow normal socialization between the kids), I'll take my chances.

This does make me think of something else though. This past weekend, I took my boy on a Cub Scout camping thing, and the Cub Scouts have at least one moderately paranoid-seeming (but probably sensible in the long run) rule - IIUC, a parent or leader cannot go off with a kid other than their own, unless at least one other adult is present. So, I wanted to take some of the kids hiking a short ways up a creek bed near the campsite, but there had to be another adult along too. (Ultimately, several adults came along).

Also, I can understand that a single adult male, without kids, would want to exercise more caution in interacting with neighborhood kids than a male with a spouse and kids of their own. Perhaps this is not entirely fair, but it seems realistic these days.

[jerri blank]

Also, I can understand that a single adult male, without kids, would want to exercise more caution in interacting with neighborhood kids than a male with a spouse and kids of their own. Perhaps this is not entirely fair, but it seems realistic these days.

I don't think that's unreasonable. I'm an adult female, and I won't even talk to a kid unless his or her parent is right close by. I was in a bike shop last weekend with my partner, and a three-year-old girl in a stroller struck up a conversation with me ("Hi! Wha's you name? I'm three.") I felt kinda unfriendly looking around to see if she had a parent nearby before I'd even say hi back, but I did.

[Aeon221]

All of this would have been resolved much faster if you had just eaten the children. Theeey're great!

[Aeon221]

I don't think that's unreasonable. I'm an adult female, and I won't even talk to a kid unless his or her parent is right close by. I was in a bike shop last weekend with my partner, and a three-year-old girl in a stroller struck up a conversation with me ("Hi! Wha's you name? I'm three.") I felt kinda unfriendly looking around to see if she had a parent nearby before I'd even say hi back, but I did.

I generally find that parents are happy when I start chasing their child around. Kids love playing, and they like it even more when it's an older person. And parents love not having their kid all up in their business. I just try to make eye contact with the parent and exhibit obviously non-threatening behavior for the first few moments of contact -- after that, we're clear for T-Rex imitations. Raaaawr!

But that's all if the kid makes first contact -- waving, smiling, running up to me and punching me in the junk (yes that happened, and no I didn't kill him). It's totally different if you initiate contact. I've only ever felt really comfortable being the initiator when I'm behind a register.

It might help that I've worked in toy stores and dollar stores a lot. After that, it's just easier to connect with random kids.

[Rimbo]

You're the third (I think) to say something along these lines. I know foreigners makes jokes about sue happy Americans with no ability to take personal responsibility, ... but is this really something to be worried about?

I believe people's fears of being sued are far greater than the actual threat. Just as "to catch a predator" fueled a lot of needless paranoia over child molesters (as evidence by Funkula's comment), court drama TV shows and odd Guardian-esque stories have fueled a fear that any act like a good community member will leave one open to a lawsuit which will certainly destroy every last vestige of one's financial security.

[Rimbo]

At this point I'm accustomed to coming home and finding my kid (3 years old) at someone else's house, or someone else's kid at my house. I encourage it. It's good. It's social. It's all about the community I live in actually being a community.

[Flowers]

Shoot the hostage.


After you enter the neutral zone to rescue the civillian frieghter, you will be confronted by three Klingon K't'inga-class battlecruisers. Convince them that you are a famous captain.

[Sidd_Budd]

Phil, glad the situation worked out well & nothing was seriously wrong with the grandmother.

It was interesting to read people's responses and thinking about that estimation quiz you posed last week. To me, the actual chances of lawsuit, severely negative police involvement, and dire medical emergency involving grandmother were all quite remote (I'm assuming grandma was in her early 60s), but many of us seemed to overestimate the chances of one or more of these situations in our responses.

Maybe we all watch too much Law & Order. It would be interesting to post the situation on a forum whose members are largely stay-at-home moms and child care workers to see if there's a contrast.

[Dean]

After you enter the neutral zone to rescue the civillian frieghter, you will be confronted by three Klingon K't'inga-class battlecruisers. Convince them that you are a famous captain.

Reprogram the simulation so that they are afraid of "The Dean" then introduce myself.

Of course they will know me by my reputation, which, by the time I'm commanding a vessel patrolling the neutral zone, will be considerable.

[Kraaze]

Phil, glad the situation worked out well & nothing was seriously wrong with the grandmother.

It was interesting to read people's responses and thinking about that estimation quiz you posed last week. To me, the actual chances of lawsuit, severely negative police involvement, and dire medical emergency involving grandmother were all quite remote (I'm assuming grandma was in her early 60s), but many of us seemed to overestimate the chances of one or more of these situations in our responses.

Maybe we all watch too much Law & Order. It would be interesting to post the situation on a forum whose members are largely stay-at-home moms and child care workers to see if there's a contrast.

I thought something similar through the thread, except of course about my own perfectly rational concerns ;-)

Though seriously, all the stuff we talked about it stuff I've never seen EXCEPT having the state remove children. That I've seen twice and in my mind that is two times too many. Both situations involved single mothers so perhaps that's why the state was so quick to remove the children, but both times it was heartbreaking for the mother and quite likely for the children as well.

I really have a hard time understanding how removing children from a parent and putting them into some overloaded foster system is any way a benefit for anyone except in cases of really extreme abuse.

[Phil_Stein]

One of my (8 year old) daughter's playmates is adopted. The family that adopted her have been foster parents to several children, all except this girl now having moved on through the system. But they adopted this girl (initially she was a foster child for them), who is now a very nice and apparently well adjusted kid. I've heard a bit of the background of what apparently happened to her before she was placed in the foster system - I won't share it here, but IIUC, it was a clear case where external intervention and removal was necessary. So I think you have to be careful about painting the foster care system with too broad a brush. There is certainly a risk when a child is put into the system that things will go badly for him/her, but they may also end up with a good foster family able to provide better care than their biological parents.

WRT the comparison with the estimation quiz: I hadn't thought of that until Sidd's post, but I think it's a reasonable analogy. It's probably true that the likelihood of a seriously negative outcome of any sort was probably not all that high. Still, even if we say that I was weighing single digit percentage chances of various bad outcomes, it made the decision process rather important - more important than my choice of donuts or toast in the morning...

As a brief follow-up - things now seem pretty solid, and my boy is planning on spending the night tonight at the grandma's house with the neighbor boys. I think we may reiterate to him that if the grandma is not around when they wake up in the morning they need to look all the way around the outside of the house :)

[Dirt]

Kudos to your daughter's playmate's parents. I'll never understand why people go to other countries to adopt kids when there are so many children in the US foster care system that need love too.

[Sidd_Budd]

It's probably true that the likelihood of a seriously negative outcome of any sort was probably not all that high. Still, even if we say that I was weighing single digit percentage chances of various bad outcomes, it made the decision process rather important - more important than my choice of donuts or toast in the morning...

As a brief follow-up - things now seem pretty solid, and my boy is planning on spending the night tonight at the grandma's house with the neighbor boys. I think we may reiterate to him that if the grandma is not around when they wake up in the morning they need to look all the way around the outside of the house :)
Apologies if you got the impression I thought you were overreacting, Phil. I was commenting on our responses, where we had the benefit of detachment from the situation. In the moment, unfamiliar situations invoke emotions that often make calm, deliberate decision-making difficult. Kudos to you & your wife for handling it as well as you did; I likely would have freaked out in the actual situation.

One more recommendation for your boy -- if grandma isn't around, yell her name loudly while searching for her. :-) It is rather odd that your wife's party of herself and five kids didn't generate enough noise to get the grandmother's attention...maybe she listens to an mp3 player while weeding.

[Phil_Stein]

...maybe she listens to an mp3 player while weeding.

That's another possibility I didn't consider. She may have perfectly fine hearing yet still not have been able to hear folks knocking on her back door, even if she was only perhaps ~30 feet away.

[Houngan]

Oooh!! I want to play:

Your girlfriend lives in a rented house which has two main entries, front and rear. The front and rear entry have security doors (steel door with no latch for the lock, has to be locked/unlocked with a key.) This is in a bad neighborhood, about two blocks from a notorious housing project, and an avenue where a lot of drifters go from the train tracks by the river to the missions about five blocks down.

You know that she is hanging out with a friend in the early part of the evening at her house, then later the friend will leave and she expects your call. So you call later in the evening. No answer. Call again an hour later, no answer. Call the house phone instead of cell, no answer. Did I mention there is an enormous snowstorm, and her car is drifted in?

IMs follow, check with friends, etc. All information suggests she should be home, alone at this point. In the past, you can always reach her either by IM or phone when she's home; the computer is never off. There's a snowstorm, the friend should have left by now. You had definitive plans, but can't reach her for several hours when the entire city is shut down from the snowfall.

So, hopping in your handy 4x4 pickup, you drive over to her house. The lights are on, which suggests she is home. You knock loudly on the door. You hit the doorbell. No answer.

Looking through a tiny gap in the blinds, you see that there is a candle burning on a table. She is not careless with this sort of thing, so you're 99% sure she is home, somewhere. But where? Logic would suggest the bathroom, and unable to come to the door. Then you check the security door; it is open. She never, ever leaves the security door unlocked. You check the normal door; it is locked. She never, ever locks that door. Not in over a year has she once locked that door, inside or out.

So, around to the side of the house, peek in a convenient window that has a view of the bathroom. The bathroom door is open, the bathroom is dark. She is not in there. On around towards back of house, more lights on, nobody apparent in the living room. TV is on.

To the back of the house. Again, the security door is hanging open, which is also rare. You go up and try the inside door, locked. Which has also never been locked in memory. You knock loudly on the door, and that's when you notice that the windowpane next to the interior deadbolt has been broken out, and the glass is still lying on the porch by your foot.

So. Snowstorm, plans, candle, doors locked that can be finger-locked, but no doors locked that require a key. Car's there, TV is on, shitty neighborhood. What do you do?

H.

[Lunch of Kong]

I'll never understand why people go to other countries to adopt kids when there are so many children in the US foster care system that need love too.

Because asian babies are cuter than white babies.

[Sidd_Budd]

So. Snowstorm, plans, candle, doors locked that can be finger-locked, but no doors locked that require a key. Car's there, TV is on, shitty neighborhood. What do you do?
1) Call 911.

2) Shout through the broken glass pane "If there's anyone here that shouldn't be here, the police are on their way. All I'm concerned about is making sure <girlfriend's name> is safe, so if the cops aren't here in 10 minutes, me & my buddies are coming in the front door. Take whatever you want and leave by the back door."

3) Call all friends with 4x4s and tell them to get over here.

4) Invoke the names of every deity of law enforcement, travel, and snow you can think of to speed the cops' arrival.

5a) Assuming no cop arrival: In 10 minutes, shout that you are coming in, & that you don't give a damn about personal belongings, you just want to make sure girlfriend is safe.

5b) Reach in through the broken window, unlock the door, & enter.

[Not One Of Us]

[X] Smash a window and enter the building.

[Phil_Stein]

Sidd is pretty good at this game, I see.

[Bad Neighbor]

Tear gas.

[Drastic]

Wait. Do I see a boy or girl in the window of this empty house? I ask because the first thing I have to do is estimate my chances.

[Dean]

Get blood samples from everyone and test them with a hot piece of wire. Then set fire to the place and freeze to death in the snow.

[Kyle Wilson]

So. Snowstorm, plans, candle, doors locked that can be finger-locked, but no doors locked that require a key. Car's there, TV is on, shitty neighborhood. What do you do?

Am I you? If so, I say "beep", draw my Glock, kick in the door, and clear the house, putting two rounds center-of-mass into any silhouette that presents itself.

[StGabe]

I really have a hard time understanding how removing children from a parent and putting them into some overloaded foster system is any way a benefit for anyone except in cases of really extreme abuse.

So as husband to a social worker, and as a kid who grew up with foster brothers and sisters, let me attempt to dispel the notion that the police are running around, willy-nilly, taking kids away on a whim.

It doesn't really work like that. At all. If anything, my wife is frustrated that it is hard to get intervention in cases that are 100% cut and dry. I.e. serious abuse is going on. Most paranoia on this issue comes from a very extremely isolated cases that made headlines. In Oregon we had a number of these a ways back and, as my parents were pretty close to the situation, it was clear that the problem wasn't a misguided and over-protective system. It was a system that was seriously underfunded dealing with far too large a case load.

Foster care is really tough. Many foster kids are severely fucked up by the time you get a hold of them. We had kids who stole, hoarded, lied and even one who severely injured one of our pets and killed a neighbor's. Imagine having it as your job to try and find homes for that kid. Now imagine what kind of parents the kid had to get that fucked up in the first place.

My wife really gets pissed off about most mainstream media portrayals of social workers. As one, she knows how the system works and it is rare that TV or film portrays it accurately.

[Kraaze]

I'm not trying to diss your wife or her profession, but I'm still extremely untrusting of a system I know to be, as your wife points out, underfunded.

I'm not reacting to some headline, my experiences with personally knowing several people who I considered to be adequate parents trying their hardest who ran afoul of the system and got into seriously disproportionate amounts of trouble.

To throw out another anecdote, I know a guy who was watching his four daughters. One throws a fit and needs some discipline. While he is attending to this, another daughter lets the youngest girl, a toddler, out the front door. Toddler goes and plays near the street. Neighbors see this, panic and call police, police arrive a few minutes later and return daughter to her father who is now frantically searching for her. Happy ending right? No. Police ticket her father for child neglect and he spends time and money he doesn't have on the mandatory court ordered classes on parenting while he spends his year on probation.

[Sol Invictus]

Why do people have 4 kids in the first place if they can barely look after one? Sounds to me like he deserved that ticket.

[Kraaze]

Why do people have 4 kids in the first place if they can barely look after one? Sounds to me like he deserved that ticket.

I'm guessing you have no kids.

If you think my friend deserved a ticket, do you think Hanzii deserved say 3 months in jail? He did worse after all, lost a kid in a more dangerous place for a longer period of time.

[Phil_Stein]

I agree with Kraaze. Parents make mistakes, whether they have 1 kid or 12.

The tricky part for the state is distinguishing typical mistakes, misunderstandings and minor stuff from the serious cases that need intervention. From time to time (perhaps frequently) the state will look foolish on both sides of the equation - not intervening in time to prevent something bad from happening (when, after the fact, it looks clear cut), and conversely, intervening too soon in cases where a good parent had a bad or unlucky day.

[Hanzii]

I'm guessing you have no kids.

If you think my friend deserved a ticket, do you think Hanzii deserved say 3 months in jail? He did worse after all, lost a kid in a more dangerous place for a longer period of time.

I'll go as far and guess he's a moron.

And I resent you calling it a more dangerous place, allthough I agree completely with the point you're making. I also ran away from my kindergarten and a friend even drove his trike aboard a ferry, where I grew up... kids gets lost all the time, and the community/police should help return them, not assigning blame and punishment. Save that for cases of real abuse.

Since we're running amok with the anecdotes, it's commonplace here to leave toddlers sleeping outside in their prams all the time. You either watch them, or have an alarm, so you can hear them (and you never go away - we're not talking Madeline McCain abandonment here). But this lady went to NY to visit friends/work and left her kid in a pram outside a café, while she was watching
it from feets away but on the other side of the window.
Police was called, lady was arrested and the kid was removed and it took days and lawyering up to get it back.

This could have been dealt with by talking to her (perhaps a lesson in "how we do thinks here" in a stern voice )- but removing the kid? Not only is these cases expensive overkill, but you're hurting both the parents and the kid.

[Phil_Stein]

Hanzii - your anecdote brings up an interesting point, and one that we were concerned about in the original instance that started this post - different cultures have different standards for raising kids.

Even in our culture, standards have changed over time. Think about seat belts, car seats and bike helmets, among other things. To some extent, their usage is driven by laws, but cultural mores play a part as well.

Personally, I can envision a lot of rather reasonable cultural standards other than our current American ones. But still, I think there's some cause for alarm if one observes a different parent flouting these standards, even if the standard is in fact, a bit questionable. Flouting the standard of one minor thing may be an indication that the parent doesn't understand the broader set of safety measures that most parents use, and/or actively and willingly flouts them. i.e. It's not so much that a Danish person acted by reasonable Danish cultural standards in New York (even though those Danish standards differed from New York standards), but rather, that New Yorkers perhaps perceived that a fellow New Yorker was flouting one widely accepted standard, and that perhaps this was a sign of broader issues as well.

That said, it sounds like the police overreacted, but that can happen in a big complex society where human judgment sometimes has to give way to codified standards. Maybe that's why a small town can sometimes seem more laid back and, well, sensible in this regard whereas in the Big City, there is more fear that the authorities will overreact.