So Too Human is close to release, what do you guys think?

[mojovonio]

A few new shots came out.

http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/images/03/08/30851_TooHuman-05.jpg
http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/images/03/08/30850_TooHuman-04.jpg

Now, I've always defended the game, tooth and nail, against people who would easily dismiss it. I had myself and three friends figure out what classes we would use in anticipation for the game to get released.

Then when the announced the cut to co-op, I still wanted the game, but soured quite a bit on it. Now when i see these shots, i see what everyone trolled the game for. It just looks like designs from an early 90s PC game.

Still, I have it paid for, so I'll be playing it day one, and I really hope it turns out well, bu the more I see about it, the more I worry.

[roboczar]

It just looks like designs from an early 90s PC game.

Why do people say things like this all the time? Hyperbole is one thing, but come on. You just end up sounding silly.

Never heard of the game though.

[Charles]

I expect it to be Advent Rising all over again.

[Brian Seiler]

You know, I was originally pretty jazzed about the game, but time has eroded that effect quite a bit, and the whole "we're cutting down to 2 person co-op" thing pissed me off so completely that at this point, I'm not prepared to buy the game until after a LOT of people have had the chance to review it, give impressions, and let me decide whether I really want it or not. I'm interested in some of the things I'm hearing (the equipment management sounds like a marvelous alternative to what I'm suffering through right now in Hellgate), but that "Day 1, must buy" enthusiasm is completely gone.

[mojovonio]

Why do people say things like this all the time? Hyperbole is one thing, but come on. You just end up sounding silly.

Never heard of the game though.

Its the style, something about it looks like it would have been in the original Unreal or Quake 3...

[MSUSteve]

I'm pretty excited about it actually. Despite Dyack trying to convince us that it's so much more than a Diablo clone, I frankly don't care if it is a prettier, console-fied Diablo. I'm certainly into collecting new weapons and armor and I'm intrigued by the unique fighting system they've come up with. I really want to get my hands on it before I decide whether it's awesome, but I'm giving Silicon Knights the benefit of the doubt simply because Eternal Darkness is one of my favorite games of all time. I'm thinking a studio that can produce that gem will produce another great game that I'll enjoy.

[Charles]

Its the style, something about it looks like it would have been in the original Unreal or Quake 3...

It is a very juvenile style. Like the covers of books in the sci-fi section you know you'd never read.

[mojovonio]

They really really need a demo soon.

[mojovonio]

It is a very juvenile style. Like the covers of books in the sci-fi section you know you'd never read.

Exactly!

[MSUSteve]

They're definitely doing a demo, so it's not an if, but a when. I think to maximize the positive effect on sales they expect the demo to have, it'll come out fairly close to the release of the game. That's not until August, so I think we'll have to wait awhile longer.

[mojovonio]

They're definitely doing a demo, so it's not an if, but a when. I think to maximize the positive effect on sales they expect the demo to have, it'll come out fairly close to the release of the game. That's not until August, so I think we'll have to wait awhile longer.

As long as they have one. Because its gotten to a point where we know too much about the game, so seeing it in action will just result in getting less interested in it (for me anyway). I need to play it!

[MSUSteve]

I'd resolved quite awhile ago that I was going to get the game, so I've essentially ignored previews and whatnot, except for when Dyack makes an appearance on a podcast or when making of videos popup on Xbox Live. So I myself don't know too much about the game, which I like. I took the same approach to MGS4 and GTAIV.

[Zylon]

Trying to follow this game gives me cognitive dissonance. I keep hearing it's an RPG, but then when I see gameplay videos it looks like yet another Devil May Cry-esque third-person console twitchfest.

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds about as appealing as a peanut-butter and spaghetti sandwich.

[Moore]

It's an action RPG duuur. Sounds about as twitch as diablo, except you kind of paint with the stick rather than point and click.

I'm buying it, though i did want 4 player co-op rather than 2.

[RobotPants]

Wait, there's no longer co-op play? What the hell is that about?

edit: Ah, judging by Moore's post, the OP's "cut the co-op" statement meant they lowered it from 4 to 2 player?

[Bahimiron]

It and Bad Company are on my 'I was super excited about this but the more I've seen the less interested I've gotten' list.

[Talisker]

I'm giving Silicon Knights the benefit of the doubt simply because Eternal Darkness is one of my favorite games of all time.
I'm hoping they'll get rolling on a sequel one of these days. Say, once Too Human is done.

[RickH]

Art = yuck.

[stusser]

I do like action RPGs. Is this that norse mythology as robots game? I vaguely remember hearing about it, like a decade ago.

[JPR]

I'm hoping they'll get rolling on a sequel one of these days. Say, once Too Human is done.

You know Too Human is games one of a trilogy, right? You're probably looking at several years, minimum before Too Human is "done".

[Wallapuctus]

That character is not up to the level of what games are doing now. It looks 5 years old, original Xbox quality graphics.

[BlindSwordsman]

It is a very juvenile style. Like the covers of books in the sci-fi section you know you'd never read.

Glad to see the consistent the hate from a fellow developer. I am looking forward to meeting you some day Charles. :)

I think it is all about reciprocity and I have posted about it at IGN here ( http://boards.ign.com/xbox_360_general_board/b8266/165311984/p3). Ironically, Too Human is a game that most people would really like here.

[Bahimiron]

Who was that blind swordsman?

(Was it Dennis?!)

It looks 5 years old, original Xbox quality graphics.

Say that the style is bad all you want, and it certainly does look like something id art directors would have come up with, but the graphics themselves are hardly 'Xbox quality'.

[JPR]

Yeah, he's posted here a few times before.

[mojovonio]

Glad to see the consistent the hate from a fellow developer. I am looking forward to meeting you some day Charles. :)

I think it is all about reciprocity and I have posted about it at IGN here (http://boards.ign.com/xbox_360_general_board/b8266/165311984/p3). Ironically, Too Human is a game that most people would really like here.

Denis, its your game. You'd think that its a game EVERYONE will like.

But you have to understand that I, as well as others, have begun losing interest in this game more and more, especially after the cut in co-op.

Granted, none of us know what you and your team know, which is how much better 2 works than 4 players, but that's why you need to get a demo out there.

Reading your blog posts and hearing you on podcasts is one thing, and frankly, I think i've read and heard as much as I can take. But you need to show us that this game will work.

And god, do I ever want it to work.

But you're making it real hard, Denis.

[Brakara]

I think it is all about reciprocity and I have posted about it at IGN here (http://boards.ign.com/xbox_360_general_board/b8266/165311984/p3).

That link leads to an IGN Registration page.

[ProStyle]

Not a fan of the art direction, but the slimmed down coop decision and the combat gameplay videos pretty much nixed this one for me. All I could think of was watching my friend boot up Phantasy Star Online to dial in with the DC for the first time. Ewww.

[Wholly Schmidt]

You know Too Human is games one of a trilogy, right? You're probably looking at several years, minimum before Too Human is "done".
Several years, or one commercial failure.

[Zylon]

It's an action RPG duuur. Sounds about as twitch as diablo, except you kind of paint with the stick rather than point and click.
I realize that technically, yes, it can be called an action RPG. Personally, when I hear that term I think of more thoughtful, first-person affairs like System Shock 2, Deus Ex, and the Elder Scrolls series. But with this game, between the epic premise on the one hand, and the frantic combat on the other hand, it looks like we're in for Planescape: Robotron.

Maybe it'll work. But it sure sounds like an odd combination.

[stusser]

You hear action RPG and think of shock2 and deux ex? You're weird. Like everybody else in the world, I think of diablo.

[mojovonio]

You hear action RPG and think of shock2 and deux ex? You're weird. Like everybody else in the world, I think of diablo.

Me too, or Champions of Norrath and Baulder's Gate: DA.

[scharmers]

I'm keeping my mouth shut on this one.

[Reldan]

You hear action RPG and think of shock2 and deux ex? You're weird. Like everybody else in the world, I think of diablo.

I think Secret of Mana.

[Charles]

Glad to see the consistent the hate from a fellow developer. I am looking forward to meeting you some day Charles. :)

I think it is all about reciprocity and I have posted about it at IGN here ( http://boards.ign.com/xbox_360_general_board/b8266/165311984/p3). Ironically, Too Human is a game that most people would really like here.

Hey, most sci-fi (in games) follows that mold. It's less a critique of Too Human and more a critique of sci-fi games in general. The Unreal games, the Quake games, Gears of War, etc. It's all that same over the top lack of subtlety that makes it come across as a juvenile book cover.

FWIW, it's not a condemnation of the game. The only possible comments I can make about the game so far is that the cutscenes I've seen haven't sold me on the story being anything other than rote, and the gameplay doesn't look like the kind of thing I enjoy either.

That being said, I'll definitely be interested in trying a demo. ETA?

[Maddness]

The only thing that bothered me about the game, aside from the drop from 4 co-op to 2, which really did sting.. had to be the animations. The fighting and sword swinging looked like Vampire The Masquerade. I didn't see any contact animations at all. it just looked like the swinging of blades randomly.


If that's been improved to match the rest of the game, I'll be a happy camper.

[Zylon]

You hear action RPG and think of shock2 and deux ex? You're weird. Like everybody else in the world, I think of diablo.
Whereas I hear "Diablo" and think "Nethack".

But I realize that this is a console game, and a frightening percentage of you people still think Legend of Zelda was an RPG.

[Bahimiron]

Whereas I hear "Diablo" and think "Nethack".

But I realize that this is a console game, and a frightening percentage of you people still think Legend of Zelda was an RPG.

Yes, the platform that was the home of the Final Fantasy series, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect and a same-day release for Oblivion and Fallout 3 is certainly the one whose players have no idea what an RPG is.

As opposed to you, who have correctly identified System Shock 2 and Deus Ex as hardcore RPGs.

(Psst. Nethack, and other roguelikes, are part of the RPG genre. I'd think an expert like you would know that.)

[Zylon]

hardcore
Funny, I don't recall using that word.

[Bahimiron]

Oh, good. You saved yourself by pointing out my addition of a single word! Whew! Now you don't look like you're spouting ignorant nonsense!

[Moore]

I realize that technically, yes, it can be called an action RPG. Personally, when I hear that term I think of more thoughtful, first-person affairs like System Shock 2, Deus Ex, and the Elder Scrolls series. But with this game, between the epic premise on the one hand, and the frantic combat on the other hand, it looks like we're in for Planescape: Robotron.

Maybe it'll work. But it sure sounds like an odd combination.
It sounds exactly like diablo (lootlotloot) but with no mouse and a scifi setting.

I has to be better than KUF: circle of doom, and I'm enjoying the shit out of that.

It's cute that you think you can define what RPG means though. That word is so distorted at this point that anything where your stats change is one. JRPGs are basically adventure games with stats, this is robotron with stats, elderscrolls are melee-doom with stats, everything is pong (with stats!) etc...

[salwon]

My question is this: Is Too Human a game in which one plays a role of some sort?

[Moore]

What game isn't? PONG I tell you. ITS ALL POOOONG.

[Robert Sharp]

Genres are starting to become a bit meaningless as labels anyway. This game looks a bit like those isometric action-RPGs (yeah like Diablo, too) that were called Hunter or something like that? I never played them. Anyone know what I'm talking about, because apparently I don't.

[Moore]

Genres are starting to become a bit meaningless as labels anyway. This game looks a bit like those isometric action-RPGs (yeah like Diablo, too) that were called Hunter or something like that? I never played them. Anyone know what I'm talking about, because apparently I don't.

Sure don't. If you mean monster hunter, you are wrong, that game is strangely awesome for what it is though: it's all the grindy bits and none of the cool stuff, from every MMO ever, only singleplayer for the most part, and retardedly complex for no good reason with terrible controls. and it isnt isometric. Still, really fun!

[idrisz]

Sure don't. If you mean monster hunter, you are wrong, that game is strangely awesome for what it is though: it's all the grindy bits and none of the cool stuff, from every MMO ever, only singleplayer for the most part, and retardedly complex for no good reason with terrible controls. and it isnt isometric. Still, really fun!


I wish I can find someone to play Monster hunter 2 portable with or 2G, even with all the defects, but it's still extremely fun. playtime is at 157 hours at moment.

[zengonzo]

On the note of genres starting to be obsolete, I'm finding it more difficult lately to get interested in a given game from the start. I can't generally get an idea of how a given game will play just by looking at screenshots ..

So when people say they were excited about Haze or Too Human, I end up feeling a little confused and wondering, 'why'? Putting aside Silicon Knights history, I can't look at the screenshots from Too Human and discern anything other than the fact that there will be action. Not that I think that this or that game won't be good! Just that I have no idea what people are judging from.

It's so difficult to see, at a glance, how games these days (shaking fist!), complex as they are, will translate into actual play.

[notatiger]

Genres are starting to become a bit meaningless as labels anyway. This game looks a bit like those isometric action-RPGs (yeah like Diablo, too) that were called Hunter or something like that? I never played them. Anyone know what I'm talking about, because apparently I don't.
Do you mean Hunter: The Reckoning (http://xbox.ign.com/objects/016/016532.html)?

[Lazy Shiftless Bastard]

This is pretty much all I can ever think of concerning Too Human:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060710.jpg

[zengonzo]

How do you even decide that a game requires a trilogy so early in the production? From an economic perspective, I'd understand, but artistically ..

[Maddness]

I'm sure Denis punches a kitten every time he sees someone mention Eternal Darkness in a Too Human discussion.


Not that there's anything wrong with wanting a sequel. I do as well, but man that's gotta get old.

[MSUSteve]

I'm sure Denis punches a kitten every time he sees someone mention Eternal Darkness in a Too Human discussion.


Not that there's anything wrong with wanting a sequel. I do as well, but man that's gotta get old.
I can't imagine it gets old to have made a masterpiece and to have people constantly reference it.

[zengonzo]

Not that there's anything wrong with wanting a sequel. I do as well, but man that's gotta get old.

Considering how long Too Human has been in development, I can imagine it's gotten pretty darned old, yeah ..

Kidding!

[Maddness]

It'd get annoying if you wanted to branch out, and no one would accept anything less than something you've already done. (and i'm not talking quality wise, that's expected. but exactly the same thing).


Also, referencing it, and saying nothing else but a sequel will do, are 2 different things.

[Draikin]

Genres are starting to become a bit meaningless as labels anyway. This game looks a bit like those isometric action-RPGs (yeah like Diablo, too) that were called Hunter or something like that? I never played them. Anyone know what I'm talking about, because apparently I don't.
Dungeon Crawl ? the last one is Icewind Dale 2.

I dont think Diablo/Too Human are RPG. I've seen titles labeled as "action games" with more roleplaying and stats than Diablo.

[MSUSteve]

It'd get annoying if you wanted to branch out, and no one would accept anything less than something you've already done. (and i'm not talking quality wise, that's expected. but exactly the same thing).


Also, referencing it, and saying nothing else but a sequel will do, are 2 different things.
Eh, I guess I can't say since I've never created a creative work that people loved. Still, I think I'd appreciate that people loved the game I made enough to keep bringing it up and to keep asking for more, regardless of how else I was trying to branch out.

[Bahimiron]

I dont think Diablo/Too Human are RPG. I've seen titles labeled as "action games" with more roleplaying and stats than Diablo.

Like Fallout 3?

[Eightball]

Like Fallout 3?

/hands bahimiron a ribbon.

[Zylon]

Oh, good. You saved yourself by pointing out my addition of a single word! Whew! Now you don't look like you're spouting ignorant nonsense!
You can save yourself the frothing-at-the-mouth handwaving. There's obviously little point responding to the rest of your post before addressing your strawman attempt. Fortunately, nobody else here would be silly enough to try such a thing...

It's cute that you think you can define what RPG means though.
Sigh...

[Coca Cola Zero]

I never understood the love for Eternal Darkness. It wasn't a bad game, but not particularly noteworthy either, IMO.

Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, on the other hand, was very good and lead to the creation of some even better games in the series (though SK wasn't directly involved).

Someone mentioned id earlier on but I think Too Human looks more Ritual than id, however the point is generally on target. I'll certainly check out the demo and hope for the best, though!

[Gunmetal]

Whereas I hear "Diablo" and think "Nethack".

But I realize that this is a console game, and a frightening percentage of you people still think Legend of Zelda was an RPG.

Hey, if you explore dungeons, get new equipment and gain the equivalent of levels via heart pieces, why isn't it an RPG? You can even name your guy!

[PeterK]

My latest definition of an RPG is that grinding must be possible. If you can't grind to increase your power, it's not an RPG.

[Charlatan]

Getting back to the original question, what do I think?

I think that even though the artwork might not be the greatest, or my cup of tea, if it has the same addictive qualities as Diablo, with neat loot, neat character progression and addictive gameplay, I will buy it. I don't care if it's an action-rpg-dungeon-nethack whatever the frick it is.... if it is fun I'll get it.

I hope there's a demo beforehand, that will go a long way towards influencing my decision.

[Gendal]

I have a pretty low threshold for quality when it comes to action rpg games so I can't imagine myself not picking it up. What with SK being the developers and all I am actually kinda excited.

[Chris Nahr]

I think I'd probably want to play Too Human except that I'd have to buy a 360 just for that game, and I don't think I'm going to do that. Bring on the PC/PS3 port already!

[Roy Ziegler]

It's going to suck dyack.

Actually, I have no idea, but I'm attracted to a story that's (kind of) based on norse mythology so I'll probably give it a try.

[Robert Sharp]

Yeah, I was thinking Hunter:the Reckoning. Thanks!

Anyway, it's very hard for me to make much out about this game. It seems like the different classes play very differently, according the hands on Xplay preview. But really you can't know how good a game like this is until you get to control it yourself. It has to feel right. For example, Titan Quest feels right to me. It feels responsive and visceral. Sacred did not. I was killing things and doing my spells and such, but it didn't feel right. There was a disconnect that is hard to explain.

It's like the difference between pushing a button and thinking "I just beat the hell out of that guy" and pushing a button and thinking "Hmm...my character just beat the hell out of something on the screen."

[Brad Grenz]

Meh. Hasn't been interesting since is was a PSX game.

[Chris Nahr]

Guess it wasn't worth the wait after all.

Tom Chick on Fidgit: (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/august-18-2008-wallet-threat-l.php) "Instead of actually buying [Too Human], you could just download the demo and play it over and over for fifteen hours. You'll get pretty much the exact same experience I had playing through the full game."

Giancarlo Varanini on 1up: (http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3169393) "The game is simply schizophrenic; it attempts to be all things to all people and never succeeds in executing any of them well." (C-)

[MSUSteve]

I read Varanini's review and it seems fair. I respect 1up for not assigning Garnett or Shane to review the game, as they might be a little too close to Dyack to be fully objective; or at least it could appear that way. That said, nothing about the 1up review surprises me and I'm still looking forward to playing the game. Tom's lone comment, with no other context, isn't worth much at this point, except perhaps to caution those that didn't like the demo against buying the game. I liked the demo and had no expectation that the game would diverge wildly from what was seen in it. I'm not sure why anyone would expect that.

[zengonzo]

That definitely rings true with what I got from even the demo, though. That I'll be feeling the repetition pretty early.

Thanks to GameFly, I'll be trying it out in any case. But I expect it to mostly be my bridge to Mercenaries 2 ..

Plus, doesn't the Force Unleashed demo come out the next day?

[stusser]

Holy crap, they rated it worse than Space Siege? Different reviewers, so maybe they're not on the exact same scale, but both on 1UP. That's rough, man.

[Jason McMaster]

Guh, I kind of want this game just for the co-op but jesus, I dunno if I can handle buying another mediocre game

[MSUSteve]

Guh, I kind of want this game just for the co-op but jesus, I dunno if I can handle buying another mediocre game
Did you like the demo? If so, I expect you'll like the game. I don't know why people put so much stock in reviews. Go with how you feel about it from your own experience.

[ColonelT]

For me, it's the very definition of "wait until the price drops." The only drawback is that co-op partners might be hard to find in six months, but I'm not really into sharing my sweet phat loot anyway.

[Jason McMaster]

Did you like the demo? If so, I expect you'll like the game. I don't know why people put so much stock in reviews. Go with how you feel about it from your own experience.

I did, of course, but what I fear about the demo is that it will get old quickly.

[Fugitive]

I kind of liked the demo, but I think I just don't have the time for merely average games anymore, until I make a bigger dent in all of the AAA ones in the backlog.

(Of course, I say this after having spent the weekend playing Prey...)

[mojovonio]

Reviews aren't being too positive.

I'll still get it, but mostly because I feel like I have to at this point.

I really hope I'll see something reviewers don't.

[MSUSteve]

I did, of course, but what I fear about the demo is that it will get old quickly.
I'm thinking that the gameplay of the demo with the actual persistence of your own character, leveling and looting up, will be an enjoyable experience. But hey, $60 is a lot of money so I understand not wanting to jump in with luke warm feelings.

[Jeff Green]

Holy crap, they rated it worse than Space Siege? Different reviewers, so maybe they're not on the exact same scale, but both on 1UP. That's rough, man.

Different reviewers. And I was probably a little too kind to Space Siege.

[mojovonio]

I'm still of the belief that Dyak should have just kept his mouth shut. I'm sure people aren't being as forgiving of the games flaws as the would be had they known a different Dyak.

[zengonzo]

I'm still of the belief that Dyak should have just kept his mouth shut.

That's never a bad idea - no matter the quality of the game. There's nothing to be gained from engaging critics head-on, and room for plenty of damage.

Can't remember if it was a friend or someone on this forum who recalled a coach's wisdom: 'put your response on the scoreboard'.

[stusser]

Different reviewers. And I was probably a little too kind to Space Siege.
Not to derail from the Too Human pile-on thread, but I would agree with that. I wouldn't recommend Space Siege to anyone but dedicated fans of the genre. At full price, anyway.

At least Too Human is ambitious. Space Siege was created by suits in committee, mediocre and lacking on every level except the (frequent) explosions. I imagine the gold master being delivered day and date of their last milestone after zero crunch precisely on budget, then everybody going home and never thinking about it ever again.

[Draikin]

1Up review - "not a good role-playing game ... not a good action game ... horribly animated ... rudimentary plot"
sounds like GOTY 2006.

[merryprankster]

I kinda feel bad for TH at this point, but I'm not surprised it's reviewing poorly after the demo. I know Dyack is going to come out and say that reviewers don't "get" the nuances yet and need to play more. That is probably true, after all I've seen sme neat combo stuff in gameplay videos. At the end of the day there are so many games coming out this season that I don't think I'm gonna bother with one that punishes me for 40 hours until I "get" it.

TH really isn't my cup of tea, but I was pulling for it to do well. I hope there are enough Diablo fans out there to keep SK alive.

[ydejin]

Tom Chick on Fidgit: (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/august-18-2008-wallet-threat-l.php) "Instead of actually buying [Too Human], you could just download the demo and play it over and over for fifteen hours. You'll get pretty much the exact same experience I had playing through the full game."

Well I've played the demo a good 6-8 times so far and still enjoy it. So if the game is mostly just like the demo, but let's me improve my character further, I'll probably enjoy it.

[fuzzyslug]

Not to derail from the Too Human pile-on thread, but I would agree with that. I wouldn't recommend Space Siege to anyone but dedicated fans of the genre. At full price, anyway.

This is my fear, actually. After playing games like Titan Quest and Guild Wars, and spending lots of time with World of Warcraft, I looked at the demo and wondered, "Is this worth $60?"

1up says no.

That said, I liked it and have already proposed to a friend that we delay the official release of the game until January when we can still 1) play the game like it is new and 2) pay around $30 for the pleasure.

[Jason McMaster]

This is my fear, actually. After playing games like Titan Quest and Guild Wars, and spending lots of time with World of Warcraft, I looked at the demo and wondered, "Is this worth $60?"

1up says no.

That said, I liked it and have already proposed to a friend that we delay the official release of the game until January when we can still 1) play the game like it is new and 2) pay around $30 for the pleasure.

good idea

[fuzzyslug]

good idea

If we all do it, I'll have plenty of people to play with. :)

[zengonzo]

I dunno, there's Longboatload of cool stuff coming out between now and early '09 ..

[Andrew Mayer]

I'm actually looking forward to this one. Semi-mindless RPG action on my 360: What's not to love?

[merryprankster]

I'm actually looking forward to this one. Semi-mindless RPG action on my 360: What's not to love?

That's what I thought Fable II was for?

[TomChick]

My review should be posted tomorrow, but yeah, I think Too Human is pretty terrible. Unless you've just gotta have a cyber-Norse setting, there's pretty much no reason to play it. If you want an action RPG, just pick up Pool of Radiance (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/depths-of-peril-will-do-quite.php)* for the PC or Monster Madness (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/monster-madness-on-the-playsta.php) for one of the consoles. Both of those are aces, and there was hardly a single moment in my 15+ hours with Too Human where I wasn't wishing I was playing one of those instead...

-Tom

* a.k.a. Depths of Peril

[rei]

oh no! you're contributing to the demise of a canadian small town!

[Moore]

If we all do it, I'll have plenty of people to play with. :)

I'll do it, but I'm guessing $15 in Jan.

[Robert Sharp]

Tom, aren't you like the only person who likes Monster Madness? The 360 version has a rating of 4 (out of 10) on Gamefly. The PS3 version fairs a much better 5 (or 5.3). Those are user reviews, of course, which are usually a bit lower than they should be, but still...

[Rock8man]

If we all do it, I'll have plenty of people to play with. :)

I'm up for that. Let's agree to hold off on buying it until it hits a certain price point. Possibly an Amazon deal of the day. I'd say $26 sounds reasonable. So when it hits $26 (or whatever price we decide), we all get it at once. It'll be the most coordinated delayed purchase ever.

[Jab2565]

Having not followed anything about Too Human, I tried the demo after it went up for silver users. I thought the controls were pretty terrible, I think I've gotten conditioned from playing TQ and Diablo that checking the inventory or skill screens should be instantaneous.

[Rock8man]

Tom, aren't you like the only person who likes Monster Madness? The 360 version has a rating of 4 (out of 10) on Gamefly. The PS3 version fairs a much better 5 (or 5.3). Those are user reviews, of course, which are usually a bit lower than they should be, but still...

Yeah, I respect Tom's view of course, but I'm staying the hell away from Monster Madness just based on the demo that was released on the 360 for it. I just can't imagine how that game could be worth playing. And the majority of reviews seem to agree that it's not, so in this case, I'd rather go with the majority view, especially when it gels so nicely with my perception of the demo.

[TomChick]

Yep, I'm pretty much the only one who digs Monster Madness. But I dig it enough to make up for the all the loser who Just Don't Get It (cf. Deus Ex, Flying Heroes, and Armageddon).

-Tom

[wigglestick]

Tom Chick on Fidgit: (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/august-18-2008-wallet-threat-l.php) "Instead of actually buying [Too Human], you could just download the demo and play it over and over for fifteen hours. You'll get pretty much the exact same experience I had playing through the full game."

"Wallet threat level bright green"

Oh, Tom, you kill me.

[Chowhound]

Yep, I'm pretty much the only one who digs Monster Madness. But I dig it enough to make up for the all the loser who Just Don't Get It (cf. Deus Ex, Flying Heroes, and Armageddon).

-Tom


My biggest beef with Monstar Madness was that it was just hard to see/pick out things overall. The camera didnt help any, and everything was just so cluttered. A buddy and I did play a number of levels coop, which was a blast despite me getting hit by zombies when I swore it looked like shambling chainsaws.

[TomChick]

Chowhound, are you talking about the 360 version or the PS3 version? Because, yeah, the 360 version was full of "stuff", to a fault. The PS3 version is a bit more spartan, which is good for letting you see the nifty monsters and weapon animations and whatnot.

-Tom

[MSUSteve]

Monster Madness?! While the 360 demo was uniformly terrible, the PS3 demo was actually decent and fairly long as well. Still, the game wasn't to my taste. I'd much rather have Too Human, based on the demo alone, of course.

Remember everyone, Tom Chick hates Watchmen and Braid! He can't be trusted!

[Chowhound]

Chowhound, are you talking about the 360 version or the PS3 version? Because, yeah, the 360 version was full of "stuff", to a fault. The PS3 version is a bit more spartan, which is good for letting you see the nifty monsters and weapon animations and whatnot.

-Tom

Yeah, 360. Zombies Ate My Neighbors is one of my all-time faves, and I hoped this was a true spiritual successor. Maybe I can find a PS3 on the cheap these days.

[fuzzyslug]

Sounds like Jason, Moore, and Rock are in for a delayed purchase. If I can get the aforementioned friend (Xaroc) to cooperate, we'll have four for...uh...sometime later. Sure, it's a two player game but I'll have plenty of folks to team up with.

I propose the new release date for Too Human is January 15th or whenever the price drops below $25.

[Sol Invictus]

You just saved me 70 dollars. Thanks, Tom. I know where I'm not spending my money.

[CalvinGT]

* GameSpy - 2.5/5
* GameSpot - 5.5/10
* 1Up - C Minus
* 360.IGN - 7.8/10
* GamePro - 4/5

Can we finally stop talking about this blowhard now? I am sure this might be fun for a 5$ dollar rental, but it's fairly clear now that it wasn't anything like the bullshit he promised for countless years. Awesome times ahead.

[Igor Muravyev]

No fun even if you're playing coop? I thought the demo was nice.

[rei]

They could disguise it as a 6 GB picture pack or theme.

Eternal Darkness was good. What happened?

[malkav11]

Meh. I liked the demo, though I didn't play long since there wasn't any progress to be made with no saves and no rest of the game. Combined with their track record, I see no reason not to at least rent it. Not like I was ever going to spend $60 on it to begin with.

[Bahimiron]

* GameSpy - 2.5/5
* GameSpot - 5.5/10
* 1Up - C Minus
* 360.IGN - 7.8/10
* GamePro - 4/5

Can we finally stop talking about this blowhard now? I am sure this might be fun for a 5$ dollar rental, but it's fairly clear now that it wasn't anything like the bullshit he promised for countless years. Awesome times ahead.

I'm not gonna say that this game is great, but you might not want to cite a 4/5 and a 7.8/10 when you suggest that the game is only worth $5.

[tromik]

I like it, but it definitely has problems. I kept getting stuck in the aerial combo animations, swinging at air. It just feels really clunky and rigid at times, and at others it feels like you're steering a supercar running on flat tires. I recall reading an article in EGM about how they wanted to make the jump feel perfect, which they've failed at completely. It feels incredibly awkward not to be able to adjust in the air. But when the controls do work and you start getting into a rhythm, it's pretty great. I really do prefer this over "A" to attack as in other Diablo-clones.

I've also read that the drops are too big too often, which ruins the excitement of getting something particularly special. I wonder if this is something they can fix in with a quick patch.

BTW, I tried both games Tom recommended over Too Human, and I prefer Too Human.

[MattKeil]

You can call Too Human my Monster Madness, because I really enjoy it. Clearly it lacks polish in places and there's a lot more they could do with it, but I expect I'll be losing a lot of hours to co-op on this one. Scratches the same itch that Titan Quest did, in a similar "yeah, it's got problems, but I have a really cool sword" manner.

[Tolkoto]

I had a pre-order ready to go, after feeling cautiously optimistic about the demo. But I was always planning to wait to see what the reviews said. I don't like to let reviews guide my purchases, but when a game is consistently getting reviewed below the 70%, well, I have a hard time justifying the purchase. Especially if it's only a 10 hour game.

It's interesting to see what Silicon Knights will do if this critical bashing continues, and if the game doesn't meet sales projections. I wonder if they'll still be committed to a Too Human 2. Obviously, it would be a bad business move, but they have put themselves in a very embarrassing position by promising a trilogy all along. Not delivering on that will be a pretty transparent sign of defeat. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Anyways, I think I'll just push my pre-order money to Force Unleashed or Fable 2 or something.

[Chris Nahr]

Strangely enough, Frank Caron on Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/games/too-human-review.ars/1) really loves the game...

[Deadbuffalo]

I really liked the demo. I played through with all 5 classes. But after reading a few of the reviews, even the more enthusiastic ones, I'm also not convinced there is $60 worth of gameplay to be had. Especially with the slew of fall releases. Mercenaries 2 is labor day weekend and I can hold out for that.

So put me in the "when it is cheaper" and "not next to the fall releases" camps.

[Lizard_King]

Don't worry, Too Human will change the world (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/54237) for its hometown.
If Too Human does what we expect it will [in the marketplace], then it can change the world for St. Catharines and Niagara," Dyack told the St. Catharines Standard.

Strong marketplace performance of Too Human would likely prompt further expansion at the studio, as well as help the city of Niagara grow a tech-oriented economy to offset the region's declining manufacturing industry.

Beating the game apparently cures cancer.

[zengonzo]

I'd think that even if you found the gameplay fun, there is one thing that absolutely kills Too Human over the long run.

The slow, awkward menu interface. It's just a disaster for a game that has you tweaking armor and stats throughout your run. From the layout, to the delay to the noise. Just tragic oversight considering its significance.

If they can patch that, make it instant, accessible and not grating to the senses, then the somewhat monotonous gameplay might be that much more appealing to me.

[MSUSteve]

* GameSpy - 2.5/5
* GameSpot - 5.5/10
* 1Up - C Minus
* 360.IGN - 7.8/10
* GamePro - 4/5

Can we finally stop talking about this blowhard now? I am sure this might be fun for a 5$ dollar rental, but it's fairly clear now that it wasn't anything like the bullshit he promised for countless years. Awesome times ahead.
Really? Take a look at what you posted. Two bad review scores (though I'd say a 5.5 is more mediocre than bad), a middling/mediocre review score, and two good review scores. I mean...how do you think that those bald scores prove anything at all, let alone that the game is only worth a $5 rental? Hell, your statement might be true for some, but I can't imagine how your posted scores in any way support your assertion.

[RobotPants]

I'd think that even if you found the gameplay fun, there is one thing that absolutely kills Too Human over the long run.

The slow, awkward menu interface. It's just a disaster for a game that has you tweaking armor and stats throughout your run. From the layout, to the delay to the noise. Just tragic oversight considering its significance.

If they can patch that, make it instant, accessible and not grating to the senses, then the somewhat monotonous gameplay might be that much more appealing to me.

That's actually my biggest gripe from the demo. The game seems cool enough for a mindless action game and I like the whole techno-Norse thing. But the menu system is just awful. I'm really surprised any developers in 2008 can still be so bad at this. Besides the layout, it might not be super terrible if it just wasn't so damn slow. Why is it so friggin' slow? Just switching from one armor slot to the other is laggy, nevermind how long it takes just to switch to another section of the inventory screen.

[zengonzo]

Really? Take a look at what you posted. Two bad review scores (though I'd say a 5.5 is more mediocre than bad), a middling/mediocre review score, and two good review scores. I mean...how do you think that those bald scores prove anything at all, let alone that the game is only worth a $5 rental? Hell, your statement might be true for some, but I can't imagine how your posted scores in any way support your assertion.

Well, a 2.5/5 is a 5, so that's not great. And I think people generally expect the 7-10 scale.

But the 7.8 and 4/5 suggest there's something there for someone.

Honestly, whether or not one likes the game, any scores won't matter. But it does suggest that the game has some serious flaws that ought to be addressed (and can!).

Five dollars is a bit dramatic, certainly. Can't help but think the atmosphere is a bit poisoned.

[MSUSteve]

I completely agree with zen and BotPants on the slowness of the menu interface. That was the only thing I absolutely hated from the demo. I will deal with it, because I liked everything else quite a bit, but damn! Why couldn't they have streamlined the menu interface somehow to make navigation quick and easy?

[MSUSteve]

Well, a 2.5/5 is a 5, so that's not great. And I think people generally expect the 7-10 scale.

But the 7.8 and 4/5 suggest there's something there for someone.

Honestly, whether or not one likes the game, any scores won't matter. But it does suggest that the game has some serious flaws that ought to be addressed (and can!).

Five dollars is a bit dramatic, certainly. Can't help but think the atmosphere is a bit poisoned.
I think the scores are disparate enough that no real conclusion can be drawn from the numbers alone (though I tend to believe that no substantive conclusion can ever be drawn from the numbers alone) and certainly not the somewhat bombastic conclusion that Too Human is categorically worth, at best, a $5 rental.

[zengonzo]

The bright side is that in this generation they still have the opportunity to fix it.

I think the ideal fix would be a removed stat and equipment menu that had nothing to do with the game options/whatever menu - something that popped right up in the middle of combat and went away quickly.

Heck, maybe it's better already. Do the reviews bring it up?

[Sol Invictus]

7.8 is a diplomatic way of saying the game sucks without being abysmal in the 7-9 scale. It's like a polished turd.

[MSUSteve]

7.8 is a diplomatic way of saying the game sucks without being abysmal in the 7-9 scale. It's like a polished turd.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but IGN maintains that it uses its entire ten point scale and I think the reviews of both Haze (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/875/875229p1.html) (4.5) and Lair (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/817/817117p1.html) (4.9) show that IGN is willing to give a turd a score that's sub-7.0. Their ratings policy (http://games.ign.com/ratings.html) explicitly states that a 7.8 is "Good". So, again, I don't know where you or anyone else gets that a 7.8 is somehow a polished turd. It is what it is. It's a "Good" score. If you don't put much stock in IGN reviews (as I tend not to) then that's another issue. But simply stating 1) that the scale is only 7 to 9 when that's clearly not true and then 2) saying a 7.8 is anything but a "Good" score is just wrong.

[intruder]

Eurogamer's review (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=217371&page=1) is up:


It's not that bad, but then "not that bad" is the highest praise it deserves. A more cohesive game, with an engaging story, might be able to overcome some of its many flaws. But this game, with this story, and this many problems, is always going to be on shaky ground. It's rather fitting that this is still being touted as the first part of a trilogy, since it definitely feels like one third of a potentially interesting game.

6/10

Ouch.

[fuzzyslug]

Hold on. Why are we discussing a game that isn't out until January? :)

[zengonzo]

Explain?

Edit: Fuck it, nevermind. I'm a moron.

[Gendal]

This genre never reviews well. Go back and read the Diablo II reviews at the time of release and see a bunch of 80/85 scores with lots of 'too repetitive, my finger hurts, etc' comments.

Not saying this is another Diablo II, but I take all action RPG reviews with a couple crates of salt.

[Killzig]

http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/top-10-amazing-piece-of-dialog.php

#4 is my favorite.

[Gendal]

Damn comedians.

[zengonzo]

"If that's your best .. "

What could they have even been trying to express there? Usually you can see where they were going even when they fail - but that's like something Biff Tannen would say.

[wigglestick]

The people trying to defend the game in the comments are pretty cute.

[MSUSteve]

Hell, I plan to get and enjoy the game, but those quotes are groaners no matter how one slices it. I'm frankly not that surprised that the dialog has the pretentious, grandiose, self-important air to it while also not making much sense. It's like a 7th grader's version of Shakespearian dialog.

[zengonzo]

Maybe that's because you should, like, to try reading a book, or something, Steve!

... and yes, I actually laughed at the "Valkerie wings" joke.

[RobotPants]

I think "Damn comedians." should be an appropriate comment in any situation.

[unbongwah]

Is co-op online-only or can you play on the same 360?

[zengonzo]

Online only, apparently.

[CalvinGT]

Really? Take a look at what you posted. Two bad review scores (though I'd say a 5.5 is more mediocre than bad), a middling/mediocre review score, and two good review scores. I mean...how do you think that those bald scores prove anything at all, let alone that the game is only worth a $5 rental? Hell, your statement might be true for some, but I can't imagine how your posted scores in any way support your assertion.

Add Eurogamer to the list at 6/10. Ignore IGN because...yeah they overrate everything, and to conclude:

GamePro - 4/5
GamePro - 4/5
GamePro - 4/5

GamePro - 4/5

That's the best score. From GamePro. GAMEPRO. Look, I don't care about Too Human, I just think Dyack needs to shut the fuck up and stop sabotaging the efforts of everyone working under him, or, you know, make a good game. There are countless developers on this forum that manage to toil away and make products that range from brilliant to good to mediocre, all the way to Charles and the mystery of Assassin's Creed. The thing that strikes me about all of them? None of them talk constant pseudo-intellectual bullshit fueled by book title dropping gleaned from too much time spent browsing Wikipedia. I'm sure the game has some fun elements, I am sure many people will really like it. More power to them. I just think maybe we can finally call Dyack out at this point.

"Your agonized shrieks shall be your only monument." Yeah....I guess the man was prophetic too.

[MSUSteve]

Add Eurogamer to the list at 6/10. Ignore IGN because...yeah they overrate everything, and to conclude:

GamePro - 4/5
GamePro - 4/5
GamePro - 4/5

GamePro - 4/5

That's the best score. From GamePro. GAMEPRO.

I'm not going to simply discount the IGN review because it doesn't comport with your theory. I think I showed a couple of instances where IGN took mediocre games to task quite harshly. As I stated before, I'm not a proponent of IGN reviews, but I'm also not going to pretend it doesn't exist because it screws up your ideas/feelings on the game or messes up your axe grinding with Dyack. I don't know anything about Gamepro and thus, will not comment on the score, especially because I haven't seen the text review. That said, a 4/5 is a good score.

Look, I don't care about Too Human, I just think Dyack needs to shut the fuck up and stop sabotaging the efforts of everyone working under him, or, you know, make a good game. There are countless developers on this forum that manage to toil away and make products that range from brilliant to good to mediocre, all the way to Charles and the mystery of Assassin's Creed. The thing that strikes me about all of them? None of them talk constant pseudo-intellectual bullshit fueled by book title dropping gleaned from too much time spent browsing Wikipedia. I'm sure the game has some fun elements, I am sure many people will really like it. More power to them. I just think maybe we can finally call Dyack out at this point.

Man, I won't disagree with the criticisms of Dyack at all. I don't buy his BS arguments going all the way back to his tiff with Mark MacDonald from E3 2006. It all sounds like blah blah excuse making to me, and the pseudo-intellectual bend is nauseating.

[Drunkagain]

I just think Dyack needs to shut the fuck up and stop sabotaging the efforts of everyone working under him, or, you know, make a good game. There are countless developers on this forum that manage to toil away and make products that range from brilliant to good to mediocre, all the way to Charles and the mystery of Assassin's Creed. The thing that strikes me about all of them? None of them talk constant pseudo-intellectual bullshit fueled by book title dropping gleaned from too much time spent browsing Wikipedia. I'm sure the game has some fun elements, I am sure many people will really like it. More power to them. I just think maybe we can finally call Dyack out at this point.

Why the hell do you even care? If the demo didn't do it for you then move along. If you liked it, then enjoy. Who the fuck cares what Dennis has to say!

[MSUSteve]

Why the hell do you even care? If the demo didn't do it for you then move along. If you liked it, then enjoy. Who the fuck cares what Dennis has to say!
I guess under that reasoning no one should ever comment on the doings/sayings of any person in the industry and only discuss the games themselves. Hell, that might be what you're actually getting at. I'm not sure. I do know there wouldn't be much fun in a message board where no one discussed anything and just played demos without commenting on anything surrounding the games industry.

[MattKeil]

The slow, awkward menu interface. It's just a disaster for a game that has you tweaking armor and stats throughout your run. From the layout, to the delay to the noise. Just tragic oversight considering its significance.

It is odd that there's no way to get to the Equipment screen with a single button press. For that matter, why the hell are Equipment and Skills not next to each other on the menu? You'd think someone would have complained about that in testing.

[Xaroc]

It is odd that there's no way to get to the Equipment screen with a single button press. For that matter, why the hell are Equipment and Skills not next to each other on the menu? You'd think someone would have complained about that in testing.

Wait doesn't the back button take you directly to equipment? or is that skills?

[MSUSteve]

It is odd that there's no way to get to the Equipment screen with a single button press. For that matter, why the hell are Equipment and Skills not next to each other on the menu? You'd think someone would have complained about that in testing.
That's something I say to myself all the time when playing games. I don't know how QA deparments work, but some of the stuff that makes it into final products mystifies me.

[idrisz]

That's something I say to myself all the time when playing games. I don't know how QA deparments work, but some of the stuff that makes it into final products mystifies me.

most of the time it's not QA's fault. they submit bugs, developers fixes the bug. Except when it's time to ship the game, Production takes over and they start cutting/dismiss bugs that won't affect games in their opinion or maybe take too long or lot's resources to get it fixed, unfortunately producers sometimes aren't gamers or designer or developer.

[GregB]

That's something I say to myself all the time when playing games. I don't know how QA deparments work, but some of the stuff that makes it into final products mystifies me.

It often comes down to time and money. Test teams will come upon plenty of bugs and/or things they feel should be altered to make the game play better. The dev teams have to decided what they can and can't do with the amount of time and resources they have left before they have to ship it. Some things like the flow of certain menus (inventory, skill, etc) probably have a pretty low priority compared to other issues.

**ACK! idrisz beat me to the punch.**

[wigglestick]

Wait doesn't the back button take you directly to equipment? or is that skills?

Sadly, you hit 'back' to get to the equipment screen, and then when you're done, you hit 'b' to back out of it, and you go... to the main menu.

They should have made it so that when you back out of the equipment menu after accessing it with the back button, it just drops you back out into the game.

It doesn't seem like a big deal, but when I was playing the demo, it was actually a little disorienting. I think I was sort of subconsciously expecting to not have to back out of the main menu as well, when I hadn't gotten in there from the main menu.

[MSUSteve]

I appreciate the insight idrisz and GregB. Typically I don't ask myself how something got past QA in relation to bugs. Usually it's some kind of obviously flawed design decision that annoys me over and over and over. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is giving the player three lives to start in BC and then, if he fails, booting him to a map screen (which takes 20 seconds to load) and forcing him to re-enter the level (prompting yet another load wait).

[RobotPants]

It often comes down to time and money. Test teams will come upon plenty of bugs and/or things they feel should be altered to make the game play better. The dev teams have to decided what they can and can't do with the amount of time and resources they have left before they have to ship it. Some things like the flow of certain menus (inventory, skill, etc) probably have a pretty low priority compared to other issues.

**ACK! idrisz beat me to the punch.**

I gotta think time and money weren't an issue with Too Human. The only thing I can guess is that they got down to the wire and thought "Oh shit, we need some sort of menu system! Quick, whip something up!". And if it's a case of the menus having a low priority, well, that's a pretty dumb thing in a game that revolves around constant looting, gear and skill upgrades.

[Sol Invictus]

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/19/dyacks-defense-too-human-haters-just-dont-get-it/

When Jeff Gerstmann bemoaned Too Human's "monotonous combat and dated approach to cooperative play," he was unknowingly shunted from the group of haves to the considerably less illustrious group of have nots -- as in have not a clue to comprehend Too Human's unyielding explosion of uniqueness and innovation. "I think we took for granted how innovative the game was," remarks the game's humble director, Denis Dyack.

Speaking to OXM at the game's UK launch, Dyack explains that a lot of the negative reaction to the game's demo (and presumably, the final version) has its roots in the provocative fear of the unknown. "But what we're also seeing is for the people who don't like it, generally just don't get it. And it's because we've created something so innovative and different," he says. "It's ironic, it just shows that human nature of if you don't understand something, you immediately attack it. It's pretty interesting in that regard."

Consider this a plea to game designers everywhere: Please tone down all that rampant innovation, lest we become embroiled in confusion and hostility and ultimately give your game a six out of ten.

Fuck off, Denis Dyack.

[ConayR]

Fuck off, Denis Dyack.
Do you hate everyone or just everyone?

[wigglestick]

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/19/dyacks-defense-too-human-haters-just-dont-get-it/

Fuck off, Denis Dyack.

It turns out that people who don't understand how great Too Human is don't deserve to bask in its glory.

[Charles]

So, given Tom's bit on the dialogue in Too Human (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/top-10-amazing-piece-of-dialog.php), I think my previous criticism of the game seeming very juvenile in style hit pretty close to home.

No wonder Denis was so offended by it!

[Zylon]

So, given Tom's bit on the dialogue in Too Human (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/top-10-amazing-piece-of-dialog.php), I think my previous criticism of the game seeming very juvenile in style hit pretty close to home.
4) "Your fear soaks your armor. I can smell it."
Not many videogames feature characters who smell each other.
If "praising with faint damnation" isn't an expression, it should be.

[Kid Socrates]

I laughed hard at the Too Human dialogue excerpts, but not for the reasons they wanted.

[Prodigy]

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/19/dyacks-defense-too-human-haters-just-dont-get-it/
Fuck off, Denis Dyack.

Perhaps he meant they achieved a new level in suckiness and the reviewers weren't prepared for it.

[MattKeil]

Jesus, people. The game is not that bad.

[stusser]

You guys rated space siege a 4/5. We may not see eye to eye on action RPGs.

[MSUSteve]

I will just quickly reiterate that I'm enjoying Space Siege just fine and further expose my apparent taste for mediocre games.

[Mox]

1) "Did you toast to me when I lay upon a marble slab in hell?"

"Lay" is the past tense form of "to lie", i.e., to recline. So what's to correct? Unless the character delivering this line is in fact a hen, and was discussing laying eggs. In which case, quite right, the tense is inconsistent.

[zengonzo]

We all have our guilty pleasures. For instance, I'm the only dude in the world who liked Kane and Lynch.

[MSUSteve]

We all have our guilty pleasures. For instance, I'm the only dude in the world who liked Kane and Lynch.
I bought it used and have enjoyed the portions I've played so far. I actually think the story, cut scenes, and voice acting are pretty damn good.

[stusser]

further expose my apparent taste for mediocre games.
This is fascinating.

How did you feel about Manhunt 2, Beowulf, and Red Steel?

[flyinj]

I bought it used and have enjoyed the portions I've played so far. I actually think the story, cut scenes, and voice acting are pretty damn good.

Wow, you really do have terrible taste in games!

[MSUSteve]

This is fascinating.

How did you feel about Manhunt 2, Beowulf, and Red Steel?
Ha! I've avoided all of those.

I do like getting these middle of the road type games when they hit about $20 or $25. Not every game needs to be a AAA blockbuster just like not every movie needs to be an Academy Award winner.

[Moore]

I had fun with k&l, sad about the missed potential, I initially hoped for hitman esque freedomw ith a strong story and cool heist sandboxes.

[MattKeil]

You guys rated space siege a 4/5. We may not see eye to eye on action RPGs.

Not the same reviewer, and I haven't played Space Siege, so comparing my opinion on Too Human to our review of Space Siege isn't really going to net you much useful data, I would think.

I am perfectly willing to believe that Too Human is simply this year's mediocre game I have gotten hopelessly addicted to. Last year it was Dynasty Warriors: Gundam, which I played for about 40 hours total. Considering both TH and DW:G emphasize killing hundreds of robotic enemies while incrementally increasing in power, this may well be the case.

[zengonzo]

I'm dying for a proper heist game.

At least Kane and Lynch got the tone right.

[stusser]

Hah! You should start a club with MSUSteve.

[MSUSteve]

zen and I almost always agree. It's getting a little bizarre.

[Pumpkinhead]

Jesus, people. The game is not that bad.

I have to agree.

An RPG with cringe inducing dialogue? Show me one that doesn't. I think the combat is better than most action based RPGs I've ever played, especially on consoles. There is a ton of loot. It has an interesting (IMHO) setting, a decent variety of classes, and looks to have decent replayability. Sure it's not Zelda, but it's not nearly as bad as the forum fanboy hivemind would have you believe.

[zengonzo]

zen and I almost always agree. It's getting a little bizarre.

Too Human is how our parents tell us apart.

[tromik]

Did the game come out today in the States? No stores in my area got it today.

[MSUSteve]

It's out, but not available everywhere. A buddy of mine in Texas got it because that's where the EB/Gamestop distribution center is. Too Human won't arrive in Michigan until tomorrow and I expect it's the same many other places.

[Brad Grenz]

So, given Tom's bit on the dialogue in Too Human (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/08/top-10-amazing-piece-of-dialog.php), I think my previous criticism of the game seeming very juvenile in style hit pretty close to home.

No wonder Denis was so offended by it!

Well, at least he wasn't videotaped on a bed with two penthouse pets bragging about how philosophically profound the game's narrative was. Oh, wait (http://www.dasgamer.com/tag/denis-dyack/).

[Prodigy]

Jesus, people. The game is not that bad.

No, from what I've seen and played in the demo the game is not that bad, but come on, the "you didn't get it" argument must be one of the lamest there is. Next will be "you are jaded", followed by the infamous "you journalists/reviewers are not in touch anymore with the mainstream audience's taste". It's an argument you could hear coming from a PR, I'm allowed to expect better from someone whose job is to develop games.

[Sol Invictus]

By Tom Ch1ck at 7:39 AM ON 08/20/08
I'm a looser!Looks like you need to install Disqus on your blog for the comments, Tom.

As for Space Siege, I'll rate it a 6 on my scale of 7-9. It's bad.

An RPG with cringe inducing dialogue? Show me one that doesn't.
Planescape: Torment