Mass Effect PC to have same pain in ass DRM as Bioshock.

[Kareem]

What exactly do people DO who have such major problems with DRM? I have securom on my PC, and maybe starforce too, who knows, or cares. I've bought games from valve, CD games at retail, and ones that need online verification. I've got company of heroes and bioshock installed, and used to have Half Life 2 on my old machine.
I've never had any mysterious crashes, slowdowns or drive failures. Ever. I had problems when Bioshock first installed because their server was down or slow for a few hours, but I lived.
I played Bioshock for maybe 2 weeks, then lost interest. Amazingly, I didn't reformat and reinstall windows more than 3 times in that period.
I'm guessing a lot of the people who have issues with the technical aspects of DRM are running home built PCs with a mixmatch of drivers and installs of various debuggers, drive emulation stuff, probably an upgraded rather than freshly installed O/S, yada yada.
In other words, the same people who have crashes with PC games generally, due to totally bizzare combinations of drivers and software etc.

For every one web geek who has their PC crash due to copy protection, I reckon there are 1,000 who whine about it ruining their life on internet forums. As I recall, Bioshock and Company of heroes were pretty big sellers, despite 'teh evil' DRM.

Not quite, Cliffski. I know you get overly excited whenever you get to yell at anyone who is remotely anti-DRM on an Internet forum but I'm in the staunchly anti-DRM camp the way it's being implemented in Mass Effect without any of that crap you reference as part of some stupid stereotype of anti-DRM gamers.

All I do is upgrade my PC significantly every year and a half. Some of my games, such as Half-life 2, Warcraft 3, Vice City, and a few others that have been released in 2004 and earlier, and are some of my favorites of all time, have seen me play them on at least 3 or 4 different setups, all of which are my own personal computers that only I used. And that's for games that are about 5 years old. Had they possessed Mass Effect's ridiculous DRM measures I wouldn't have been able to play them today. Fortunately, they did not, and I remain a fan whose bought Vice City twice, Warcraft 3 and its battle chest 3 times and Half-life 2 on 4 different times.

Hopefully one day you won't entirely destroy a DRM thread with your cathartic rants that seem born out of a prejudice against any gamer who dares question certain measures by publishers.

[Roy Ziegler]

For every one web geek who has their PC crash due to copy protection, I reckon there are 1,000 who whine about it ruining their life on internet forums. As I recall, Bioshock and Company of heroes were pretty big sellers, despite 'teh evil' DRM.

You do realize that those players got fucked after they bought the game, right?

But yeah, fucking over people who pay money for your product is worth it to punish a pirate by making them wait a week before enjoying a hassle-free product compared to those saps who actually paid money for it.

[Iorek_Byrnison]

Hey, you wanted to hear from someone in the industry.

My view? If you play a game (even without paying for it) you are aiding that developer to continue doing what they do, because you add to the game's popularity.

The fact that you want to be able to justify your piracy doesn't mean it's not piracy and that you aren't being petty about it.

There's nothing sincere and sensible about playing something without paying for it. It's juvenile logic at best.

"Justification" is the least of my concerns. And believe me I'm not trying to be all In Your Face about this. What I'm trying to be sincere and sensible about is the cause and effect of measures taken to fight piracy and the cost of why they're not working.

Is it even possible to have a civil discussion here about this without all the knee-jerk defense mechanisms getting in the way?

[Damien Neil]

What exactly do people DO who have such major problems with DRM?

Fuck if I know, but Overlord just plain didn't run for me until I downloaded a crack.

But, hey, I'm just some whiny geek on the Internet. What do I count for?

[rrmorton]

Is it even possible to have a civil discussion here about this without all the knee-jerk defense mechanisms getting in the way?

You're awfully confrontational in your efforts to be non-confrontational.

[nlanza]

Is it even possible to have a civil discussion here about this without all the knee-jerk defense mechanisms getting in the way?

I'm not really sure you get to play the 'civil discussion' card after calling him a douchebag.

[Iorek_Byrnison]

I'm not really sure you get to play the 'civil discussion' card after calling him a douchebag.

But I meant it in the nicest way possible!

[Alan Friesen]

What exactly do people DO who have such major problems with DRM?

Games I played this week:
King of Dragon Pass (1999)
Mordor: The Depths of Dejenol (1998)
Master of Orion 2 (1995)

Now, imagine if any of these three games had the sort of draconian DRM that EA is suggesting. Do you think I would have been able to play them, or would it be more likely that I would have long ago run out of installs? When I buy a game, I expect to have access to that game for the rest of my life, just like if I buy a book, I expect to have that damn book when I'm eighty years old.

[Jab]

The problem I have is that in many cases DRM and CP have prevented me from playing games I've bought. Sim City Societes and to a lesser extent Sims 2, the CP presented in Sims 2 has kept me from being able to use the disc and I have to leave in my computer for a minute before it gets picked up. With SCS I couldn't even install the game period. Then we have games that require online access regardless of what we're doing in game. The bs relic pulled with Company of Heroes has convinced me not to buy another game from them for a very long time.

I could see agreeing with people who support Cp and DRM if it actually prevented piracy. Can anyone show me an example of a game not being pirated at all during it's run thanks to a form of copy protection. So far I haven't heard of any games that could, and that is the problem with CP. So that leaves pirates with a hassle free experience and the people who support the developers with CP that serves no purpose for the consumer.

[Tom Chick]

Is it even possible to have a civil discussion here about this without all the knee-jerk defense mechanisms getting in the way?

You walk into a room and announce that you're stealing from the people in the room, and then you act surprised when they won't have a civil discussion with you?

-Tom

EDIT: Actually, that's a bit unfair of me, since I'm not sure you've admitted that in this thread. Plz disregard.

[Charles]

EDIT: Actually, that's a bit unfair of me, since I'm not sure you've admitted that in this thread. Plz disregard.



So help me, I didn't start out as a pirate -- quite the contrary, actually -- but I was slowly made into one, one excrutiating irritation at a time. Every new release faced a gauntlet of Buy Or Download?

I dunno man, seemed pretty clear to me. The disclaimer after the fact of "I'm not saying I am!" seems more like a preemptive defense than anything else.

[Tom Chick]

Okay, I take back my taking back!

-Tom

[Adree]

You walk into a room and announce that you're stealing from the people in the room, and then you act surprised when they won't have a civil discussion with you?

-Tom

EDIT: Actually, that's a bit unfair of me, since I'm not sure you've admitted that in this thread. Plz disregard.



5. I found out just in time to not buy Lost Planet: Extreme COndition because it needed an active Steam connection not only to install but to play a fucking Single Player Campaign offline! No connection = no play. As Sigourney Weaver said in Galaxy Quest: "Screw that!" I downloaded, played, finished and enjoyed a de-Steamed torrented copy I would gladly have paid for had the absurd "copy punishment" scheme not been so invasive and presumptuous.

Now Mass Effect stands to be the next no-buy torrent-in-queue if they do indeed go ahead with the same shortsighted bullshit.

So help me, I didn't start out as a pirate -- quite the contrary, actually -- but I was slowly made into one, one excrutiating irritation at a time. Every new release faced a gauntlet of Buy Or Download? criteria that, according to the Status Quo here, don't mean diddly. Ihttp://arachnid.pepperdine.edu/privitt/images/sculptures/large/rolling_stock_full/Caught%20Red%20Handed.jpg

[Charles]

"Justification" is the least of my concerns. And believe me I'm not trying to be all In Your Face about this. What I'm trying to be sincere and sensible about is the cause and effect of measures taken to fight piracy and the cost of why they're not working.

Is it even possible to have a civil discussion here about this without all the knee-jerk defense mechanisms getting in the way?

I don't know where you seem to think I stopped being civil. Unless you take offense at my mention of 'petty', but I have yet to see you argue why it isn't petty to slam a developer for their actions, and then enjoy the fruits of their labour anyway.

It's like ordering a meal at a restaurant, eating the whole thing, enjoying it, and then saying you won't pay because you didn't like it. If you don't like it, don't eat it.

And you can just bandy about how it's "not working" but the simple fact is that there are no concrete numbers, but there's some pretty solid history to prove that without any copy protection, people just lend their games to friends to install and copy all day long. It gets grey beyond that -- would they have paid, did they even play it, etc. But stopping people from just installing the game without any challenge at all is at least some form of protection.

And there's so many hoops to jump through for pirated games nowadays, that saying that the copy protection does nothing is being willfully ignorant.

[salwon]

Can we get that cop-cars-going-in-circles animation in here?

[John Sansker]

You know what would be cool? If Tom's vetting process weeded out people who can find some reason to justify not paying for games they play.

If you really want to stick it to the developers who use copy protection, you refrain from playing their games. Stealing it just makes you petty.


You know what would be cooler? If douchebags like you could stay on topic without relapsing into the tired old Electric Kool-Aid rhetoric.

This is exactly the type of response I deliberately tried to avoid by re-introducing the subject with a sincere and sensible preface. That you chose to ignore my attempt to keep this civil and plunged us back into accusatory name-calling makes you the petty one.

I apologize on your behalf.

Hey, you wanted to hear from someone in the industry.

My view? If you play a game (even without paying for it) you are aiding that developer to continue doing what they do, because you add to the game's popularity.

The fact that you want to be able to justify your piracy doesn't mean it's not piracy and that you aren't being petty about it.

There's nothing sincere and sensible about playing something without paying for it. It's juvenile logic at best.

Charles,Charles, Charles, not like this.^
Instead, like this (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=41547&highlight=assassin%27s+creed).

[Iorek_Byrnison]

You walk into a room and announce that you're stealing from the people in the room, and then you act surprised when they won't have a civil discussion with you?

-Tom

EDIT: Actually, that's a bit unfair of me, since I'm not sure you've admitted that in this thread. Plz disregard.

I freely admitted my piratic participation as part of trying to be completely honest in addressing this issue. Again, my pathetic attempt to participate by proferring a point of view not normally acknowledged here.

My intention was not a "HA HA LOOK WHAT I'VE DONE!" but rather a "HERE'S WHY I'VE DONE IT"; not as justification (because it's not justified, I get that) but as a choice the whys of which seem to get overlooked here.

I'm obviously not getting my point across as effectively as I'd like but I promise I'm not just trying to provoke. On some level there's a process by which one chooses to steal rather than purchase. If there's something a developer or publisher can do to help mitigate the former in favor of the latter is it not worth at least listening to?

[thamer]

And there's so many hoops to jump through for pirated games nowadays, that saying that the copy protection does nothing is being willfully ignorant.

I'm not sure what these hoops are.

Usually you get a fixed dvd image or a crack to replace your executable. Any nitwit can do it. In fact people do it to legitimate copies just so they don't have to keep swapping DVDs. That's all these copy protection schemes do at the end of the day. Force people to look for cracks -- whether they bought a copy or not.

I still don't understand why the games industry cannot do what it other software vendors do. Have your customers register for support and offer them real support for a fixed period of time. I think this is because once a game is complete the business process in most of these companies is so poor they don't have a dedicated support team to serve their customers properly.

[stusser]

There's no doubt that intrusive copy protection leads to pirates having a better gaming experience than legitimate players, and there's no doubt that this leads to a significant number of consumers throwing up their hands and pirating the title. Oh, and there's no doubt that EA is evil. We've gone over this many, many times. Spinning wheels, etc.

My solution, which is one that I've only posted here seven or eight times before, is to accept that copy protection is laughably ineffective and pisses off your customers and remove it entirely. Change your business model-- it's 2008/broadband/napster lessons learned/best buggy whip/etc. Not going through the analogies again. Welcome to reality.

Instead, integrate worthy online components, ancillary promotional products, microtransactions, advertising, and/or cool updates to incentivize players to purchase your title. Some will pirate it anyway, oh well. Your job is to minimize that number. For some examples, look to spore's shared universe of community generated content, stardock's galciv2 content patches, microtransactions in SOE's the agency, advertising in forumwarz, metaplace's thin client, and so on. These people "get it".

Not that they'll all be successful, of course. But their eyes are open.

[shang]

The more I've thought about this new DRM scheme in Mass Effect and Spore, the more convinced I am that the main purpose of it is to eliminate second hand sales (especially since the tokens aren't refunded on uninstall). If they were just targeting casual piracy, then any old disc based authentication would do just as well.

[mouselock]

My intention was not a "HA HA LOOK WHAT I'VE DONE!" but rather a "HERE'S WHY I'VE DONE IT"; not as justification (because it's not justified, I get that) but as a choice the whys of which seem to get overlooked here.

Here's the thing. You're trying to make a moral argument:

"It's wrong of the publishers to punish the honest people who buy the games."

That's fine. It's a valid argument. It may/may not be a reasonable argument depending on what part of the whole "A pirated copy is a lost sale, period!" camp you come in on.

However, you have no ability to make a moral argument because you're doing something which even you declare unjustified: Pirating the game anyway.

Don't like the copy protection? Fine. A valid viewpoint. So don't play the game. The message:

Your punishment of the genuine consumer is so heinous and so painful to me that all your hard work isn't even getting experienced by your target audience! Not only has the publisher lost a sale (every bit as bad as a pirated copy) but they've lost positive word of mouth, the chance to build expectation for their next product, and you've made the worst, most harmful decision you can make: You've decided to no longer be a customer.

That's a strong message.

Here's what you say if you pirate a game:

Your punishment of the genuine consumer is heinous, but I can't resist the game anyway. Therefore, if you manage to build a better mousetrap and come up with copy protection that keeps me from copying it, I will buy it.

In effect by pirating a game you're telling the publishers "Just make nastier copy protection (so nasty it can't be cracked before I cave) and I will buy the game!"

Way to strike a blow there, Tex!





On some level there's a process by which one chooses to steal rather than purchase.

No, there's a process by which one chooses to purchase or not to purchase. There's an entirely seperate process by which one chooses to not purchase or steal. The only relation between the two is an implicit one which many people mistake for causality, but it really isn't.

[stusser]

by pirating a game you're telling the publishers "Just make nastier copy protection (so nasty it can't be cracked before I cave) and I will buy the game!"
Well you see that's the problem in a nutshell. That's not what the consumers are saying by any stretch of the imagination, but it is what the studios are hearing.

Fact of the matter is that any copy protection mechanism remotely effective in 2008 is sufficiently intrusive to scare off players. Whether they just walk away in disgust, end up pirating it two weeks later, or decide not to buy/pirate your next game is really immaterial. It's a losing battle. Don't fight it.

[ZekeDMS]

Can anyone show me an example of a game not being pirated at all during it's run thanks to a form of copy protection. So far I haven't heard of any games that could, and that is the problem with CP. So that leaves pirates with a hassle free experience and the people who support the developers with CP that serves no purpose for the consumer.


I'm pretty sure Trackmania:Sunrise never got cracked. I'm not sure of Splinter Cell 3 either, really. I remember there being an extremely ridiculous process that could somewhat work around it(Starfucker, I think), but it didn't do much to let me play the game I spent 50 god damn dollars on.

Both games used StarForce 3. It worked to prevent piracy, I'll give it that, but it prevented me from using my own fucking game for a long time due to my drive configurations and having daemon tools on my system, which I'll take off if they find me a working G-police CD to replace my stolen one :P

CP which will disallow me from playing a game just because of SCSI drives or drive emulators is a particularly abominable creation, effective as it may be.

[foogla]

I'm going to buy Mass Effect for the PC and I don't give no fucks about the copy protection :)

[krise madsen]

Wait where did Charles call you a name just now?


respectfully,

krise madsen

Hey, what's with the signature piracy?


What exactly do people DO who have such major problems with DRM?

You know, if it just plain worked (didn't screw up the game, actually prevented piracy), I don't think you'd hear a peep. But it doesn't. It doesn't prevent piracy, and it does screw up the game and/or your PC. It will make the game lag, crash or not work at all, get in a fistfight with your other perfectly legal software, require you to have the disc in the drive (in 2008? are you kidding me?), require you to be online to play a single player game, and just about any other possible way to fuck up your gaming experience. And since it doesn't actually prevent piracy, there is no reason for it.

For me, it's mainly for the same reason I pay for my games: Principle. Some of those DRM schemes (Sony rootkit, StarForce) are downright nasty. Just think of all the wailing and gnashing of teeth required just to get the industry to post the DRM specs before release.



I still don't understand why the games industry cannot do what it other software vendors do. Have your customers register for support and offer them real support for a fixed period of time. I think this is because once a game is complete the business process in most of these companies is so poor they don't have a dedicated support team to serve their customers properly.

One of my favorite rants is about stretching the "active life" of a game. Instead of spending years and millions on development and then releasing it all in one big $50 lump, stretch it over a longer period of time, years if it's a successful game. Developers spend less on initial development, gamers spend less on initial purchase. If it's a hit, gamers will buy more and developers will earn more. Couple this with Brad Wardell's convenience-driven business model and you have a DRM-free system that reduces piracy (at least the kind that actually hurt sales) and you reward developers for making quality games.


My solution, which is one that I've only posted here seven or eight times before, is to accept that copy protection is laughably ineffective and pisses off your customers and remove it entirely. Change your business model-- it's 2008/broadband/napster lessons learned/best buggy whip/etc. Not going through the analogies again. Welcome to reality.


Probably the most important point IMO: DRM doesn't work, so try something else.


The more I've thought about this new DRM scheme in Mass Effect and Spore, the more convinced I am that the main purpose of it is to eliminate second hand sales (especially since the tokens aren't refunded on uninstall). If they were just targeting casual piracy, then any old disc based authentication would do just as well.

I suspect the PC resale market isn't big enough to matter. What I really don't like about DRM like SecuRom (and others) is that it puts the game entirely under the control of the publisher: With the now-cancelled 10-day setup, you could only play the game for as long as EA could be arsed to keep the authentication server running. Or trust them to release a patch or something eventually. But trust is in very short supply in this business.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Drastic]

Hey, what's with the signature piracy?

I don't know what you're talking about.

-Tom

[cliffski]

Not quite, Cliffski. I know you get overly excited whenever you get to yell at anyone who is remotely anti-DRM on an Internet forum

Hopefully one day you won't entirely destroy a DRM thread with your cathartic rants that seem born out of a prejudice against any gamer who dares question certain measures by publishers.

That was my only post in this thread.

you may now return to your whining and name calling.

[Charles]

Well you see that's the problem in a nutshell. That's not what the consumers are saying by any stretch of the imagination, but it is what the studios are hearing.

Umm, what? If pirates are playing the game anyway, mouselock is exactly right. You are telling the studios that you want to play the game anyway. That's why the stronger message is to not play it at all.

Actions speak louder than words. Pirates (which I refuse to call consumers) can speak until they are blue in the face about how much they hate copy protection and such, but as long as they are still willing to get the game, it really is an incentive to find the perfectly uncrackable solution.

Also, since this conversation at the moment is revolving directly around ports of console games to PC, let me once again re-iterate: fuck the PC. You guys don't want copy protection? Buy a console. The day will come where devs don't even bother porting to the PC, and it will be the bed you made.

[cliffski]

The problem I have is that in many cases DRM and CP have prevented me from playing games I've bought. Sim City Societes and to a lesser extent Sims 2, the CP presented in Sims 2 has kept me from being able to use the disc and I have to leave in my computer for a minute before it gets picked up. With SCS I couldn't even install the game period. Then we have games that require online access regardless of what we're doing in game. The bs relic pulled with Company of Heroes has convinced me not to buy another game from them for a very long time.




I have all 3 mentioned games, and play all 3 with zero issues. What would you prefer, a disk check (which you are complaining about) or an on-line check and no disk? (which you are complaining about).

You are going to have to have one or the other (although both is overkill) if you have any way to ensure people aren't rampantly copying and distributing the game.
If you are lucky and your target market doesn't pirate, that's great, but if you make an RTS or FPS, you need this sort of stuff.

Personally, I prefer on-line checks. I understand games companies need to protect their investment, and if I need to be on-line to play a singleplayer game that's fine (I'm always on-line anyway).

[Tom Ohle]

I'm obviously not getting my point across as effectively as I'd like but I promise I'm not just trying to provoke. On some level there's a process by which one chooses to steal rather than purchase. If there's something a developer or publisher can do to help mitigate the former in favor of the latter is it not worth at least listening to?

The problem is that one of your major arguments seems to be against online authentication. You've magically managed to post on a message board, yet you can't be online to authenticate your game ONCE (in the case of Steam games)... I don't get it. If it's a fundamental boycott of anything even moderately protected from piracy, then it's just a terrible excuse for stealing games that justifies it to yourself.

[shang]

I have all 3 mentioned games, and play all 3 with zero issues. What would you prefer, a disk check (which you are complaining about) or an on-line check and no disk? (which you are complaining about).

You are going to have to have one or the other (although both is overkill) if you have any way to ensure people aren't rampantly copying and distributing the game.
If you are lucky and your target market doesn't pirate, that's great, but if you make an RTS or FPS, you need this sort of stuff.

Personally, I prefer on-line checks. I understand games companies need to protect their investment, and if I need to be on-line to play a singleplayer game that's fine (I'm always on-line anyway).

Ideally, you could authenticate with either, so that you wouldn't usually require the disc, but could optionally use the disc instead when your are offline (with a laptop for example). AFAIK, CoH: Opposing Fronts works like this. However, the limited number of installs is the worst part of the this new protection, not the online authentication per se.

[cliffski]

yes, that's a pretty good system.
I think the real solution to all this is to actually find a way to make getting pirated copies harder. Preventing someone cracking games is very hard, but making it a serious pain in the backside to get a legit working crack must be at least vaguely doable. I don't see why every single employee desktop at EA isn't permanently seeding fake cracks of the Sims, for example.

[Brian Seiler]

Actions speak louder than words. Pirates (which I refuse to call consumers) can speak until they are blue in the face about how much they hate copy protection and such, but as long as they are still willing to get the game, it really is an incentive to find the perfectly uncrackable solution.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here, Charles. It seems like you're reducing the situation to a binary decision (play/not play) without consideration for expense or inconvenience. If that's what's motivating developers to continue to implement less-than-ideal copy protection and DRM, I don't think I get it. I mean, I totally understand trying to stop people from stealing your stuff because you don't like it when people steal your stuff and it makes you feel angry, and I would understand if some legal requirement to defend your copyrights forced publishers to do this sort of thing, but in the example you're giving here, it seems that the only time you gain anything is when your copy protection is perfect, which, to date, it has not yet been.

Just a quick question - is there any evidence anywhere at all that indicates how cost-effective any DRM or CP more aggressive than, for instance, what comes built in to the DVD standard actually is? You see these arguments pop up all the time, but what gets me is that it seems like everybody's just hurling opinions without any actual data. I'll admit that I can't begin to understand how investing in a third party DRM scheme that breaks your game for even one person would return more for your money than directing the funds to marketing, another development asset, or anything else you could spend the money on, but that's just my feeling - I would absolutely love some kind of hard data. I mean, I'm one of those people that got talked out of buying Titan Quest by a bunch of thieves on the forums until it was too late to do any good, so I know that this sort of thing can have a negative effect for at least some people, but has anybody actually tried to do a legitimate investigation?

[cliffski]

here are two articles with some hard data:

http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/articles/why-do-people-register-shareware.html

http://www.ps3news.com/PC_Tech/Casual-Games-and-Piracy-The-Truth/

[Sam Jones]

The problem is that one of your major arguments seems to be against online authentication. You've magically managed to post on a message board, yet you can't be online to authenticate your game ONCE (in the case of Steam games)... I don't get it.

While I'm certainly not leaping to the defense of the board's favourite new whipping boy, is it entirely beyond your comprehension that he might be posting from work, or via a means other than his gaming PC? I can browse and post to QT3 from my mobile phone, but I can't install Bioshock on it.

[Charles]

While I'm certainly not leaping to the defense of the board's favourite new whipping boy, is it entirely beyond your comprehension that he might be posting from work, or via a means other than his gaming PC? I can browse and post to QT3 from my mobile phone, but I can't install Bioshock on it.

You know, it's not realistic anymore to not have an internet connection and expect to still be included in the culture.


Yes yes, laptops while traveling. You can still connect it to authorize on a system that has an offline mode.

[Machfive]

yes, that's a pretty good system.
I think the real solution to all this is to actually find a way to make getting pirated copies harder. Preventing someone cracking games is very hard, but making it a serious pain in the backside to get a legit working crack must be at least vaguely doable. I don't see why every single employee desktop at EA isn't permanently seeding fake cracks of the Sims, for example.

Maybe they could seed rootkits disguised as the cracks! That would be so rad.

[Iorek_Byrnison]

Here's what you say if you pirate a game:

Your punishment of the genuine consumer is heinous, but I can't resist the game anyway. Therefore, if you manage to build a better mousetrap and come up with copy protection that keeps me from copying it, I will buy it.

In effect by pirating a game you're telling the publishers "Just make nastier copy protection (so nasty it can't be cracked before I cave) and I will buy the game!"

Nothing could be farther from the truth. It's more like "If you come up with copy protection that keeps me from copying it, I will wait for someone smarter than me to copy it, then I'll copy it."

And, no, simply not buying a game is not the worst thing you can do to a company. Stealing it is. That's the point: Adding insult to injury. Your problem in seeing this is that you're stuck thinking inside your own box here.

Was King Kong with StarForce ever cracked? Who cares? Who'd even go near that evil piece of crap knowing the havoc it was capable of? I know for a fact that Trackmania United was, and possibly LOMAC: Flaming Cliffs, though I'm not positive. (My legitimate copy is StarForce protected so I won't install it.)

If there's a method of securing something, then by definition there's a method of unsecuring it. All it takes is people with motivation and know-how. And sometimes the presumption of guilt is motivation enough.

So you've gotta ask yourself one question: Is it worth it?

[Charles]

yes, that's a pretty good system.
I think the real solution to all this is to actually find a way to make getting pirated copies harder. Preventing someone cracking games is very hard, but making it a serious pain in the backside to get a legit working crack must be at least vaguely doable. I don't see why every single employee desktop at EA isn't permanently seeding fake cracks of the Sims, for example.

That doesn't work because any torrent site worth using has comments, and fake shit gets flagged and ignored pretty quit.

A much better solution is to name your game "the" or "1"

[fox1]

Your punishment of the genuine consumer is heinous, but I can't resist the game anyway. Therefore, if you manage to build a better mousetrap and come up with copy protection that keeps me from copying it, I will buy it.

In effect by pirating a game you're telling the publishers "Just make nastier copy protection (so nasty it can't be cracked before I cave) and I will buy the game!"

I can't argue over whether this is, in fact, the message that publishers are getting, but I think there's at least a chance that it's not completely true.

Economically, supply creates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say%27s_Law) its own demand (controversy aside, I think the Keynesian paraphrasing is true in this limited context) and, anecdotally, I know that [in my callow youth, before I learned right from wrong] I "acquired" and played several games that I would never have bothered to spend money on. Again, callow youth, plus, at that point, my income was tiny, and my time was virtually worthless, so spending time finding cracks (noticeably more difficult in the pre-torrent era) and playing mediocre games felt less wasteful.

[cliffski]

If there's a method of securing something, then by definition there's a method of unsecuring it. All it takes is people with motivation and know-how. And sometimes the presumption of guilt is motivation enough.

So you've gotta ask yourself one question: Is it worth it?

This is also true of your house. given a wrecking ball, and some motivation, I can steal your stereo tonight. Short of surrounding your house with a neutronium wall and a moat, lasers and submachinegun nests, you will never stop a determined thief stealing your stereo.

But you still lock the front door right? to deter the casual thief...

[Kool Moe Dee]

This is also true of your house. given a wrecking ball, and some motivation, I can steal your stereo tonight. Short of surrounding your house with a neutronium wall and a moat, lasers and submachinegun nests, you will never stop a determined thief stealing your stereo.

But you still lock the front door right? to deter the casual thief...

Cue "but software piracy doesn't deny anyone else the right to use it" BS argument in 3...2...1...

[Wheelkick]

While I'm certainly not leaping to the defense of the board's favourite new whipping boy, is it entirely beyond your comprehension that he might be posting from work, or via a means other than his gaming PC? I can browse and post to QT3 from my mobile phone, but I can't install Bioshock on it.
I can't torrent Bioshock to my mobile, but I can use it to post on Qt3.

While it is possible that you might torrent the games on one PC and play them on another, it really seems like a silly excuse to bash online verification of a game you bought.

Companies work on maximizing profit. EA would kill all copy protection in a heart beat if they saw evidence that it would increase sales. And they have a lot of people working on maximizing profit over there. It's just not in the evidence that copy protection lower sales. Or rather, evidence points to consoles as the big market to focus on. People seems to actually buy the big games if they can't torrent it when looking at the console market.

[Tom Ohle]

While I'm certainly not leaping to the defense of the board's favourite new whipping boy, is it entirely beyond your comprehension that he might be posting from work, or via a means other than his gaming PC? I can browse and post to QT3 from my mobile phone, but I can't install Bioshock on it.
Yes, I suppose this is a valid argument. I just think that in today's environment, saying you don't have internet access AT ALL on your gaming-capable PC is like saying you just download games because you don't have a DVD drive.

[Charles]

Yes, I suppose this is a valid argument. I just think that in today's environment, saying you don't have internet access AT ALL on your gaming-capable PC is like saying you just download games because you don't have a DVD drive.

One might ask, if they don't have the internet connection to authorize the game with, then how do they pirate the game to play it?


HMMMMMMM.

[Mordrak]

One might ask, if they don't have the internet connection to authorize the game with, then how do they pirate the game to play it?


HMMMMMMM.

Friends. How did people pirate before there was internet? If one person doesn't have internet, they can just get it from someone who does.



This is also true of your house. given a wrecking ball, and some motivation, I can steal your stereo tonight. Short of surrounding your house with a neutronium wall and a moat, lasers and submachinegun nests, you will never stop a determined thief stealing your stereo.

But you still lock the front door right? to deter the casual thief...


Last time I bought a chair, I didn't have to input an access key, connect to the internet, and say "opensasame" to sit down.

[stusser]

fuck the PC. You guys don't want copy protection? Buy a console. The day will come where devs don't even bother porting to the PC, and it will be the bed you made.
Yeah we covered this too. This is clearly where many studios are heading, and it's silly. There are roughly one billion PCs in the world today. In comparison, MS sold 19 million xbox360s. True that not all of those PCs are gaming-worthy, but riddle me this-- how did Nvidia make over a billion dollars in 2007? Consumers are buying gaming hardware. Are you going to ignore that market due to rampant piracy? Is changing business models so scary that you'll concede a market of a billion potential consumers? Doesn't that seem a bit short-sighted?

[WarrenM]

This is clearly where many studios are heading, and it's short sighted and silly.
How many of those PCs are using for gaming? And, of that subset, how many of those owners also own a console?

[Mordrak]

Yeah we covered this too. This is clearly where many studios are heading, and it's silly. There are roughly one billion PCs in the world today. In comparison, MS sold 19 million xbox360s. True that not all of those PCs are gaming-worthy, but riddle me this-- how did Nvidia make over a billion dollars in 2007? Consumers are buying gaming hardware. Are you going to ignore that market due to rampant piracy? Is changing business models so scary that you'll concede a market of a billion potential consumers? Doesn't that seem a bit short-sighted?


Not only that, with XBLA Games, the consoles are turning into PCs as far as intrusive and draconian DRM goes. There's no escape, so fuck Microsoft, publishers and all console makers for that matter. They all dream of discless consoles. In the next 5-10 years I'll probably only be playing the games I already own. People don't like being sold something, and then told there's always "take backs."

[Charles]

Yeah we covered this too. This is clearly where many studios are heading, and it's silly. There are roughly one billion PCs in the world today. In comparison, MS sold 19 million xbox360s. True that not all of those PCs are gaming-worthy, but riddle me this-- how did Nvidia make over a billion dollars in 2007? Consumers are buying gaming hardware. Are you going to ignore that market due to rampant piracy? Is changing business models so scary that you'll concede a market of a billion potential consumers? Doesn't that seem a bit short-sighted?

Not really, no. Most computers sold just aren't gaming capable. Short of building to assume six or seven year old tech, you are already limiting your audience an extreme amount.

Traditionally, videocard makers make the majority of their money from integrated solutions. Chipsets, integrated video. After that? Their budget videocards. Not their actual gaming cards. I don't know if this is still true but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

Plus there seems to be (lool opinion) a pretty high correlation between people with high end PCs and piracy.

[Charles]

Friends. How did people pirate before there was internet? If one person doesn't have internet, they can just get it from someone who does.

And yet there's still a difference between providing a floppy to a friend to make a copy in ten minutes, vs requiring them to download a game and burn 4gb of their (most likely) limited broadband cap.

[Charles]

Not only that, with XBLA Games, the consoles are turning into PCs as far as intrusive and draconian DRM goes. There's no escape, so fuck Microsoft and publishers. In the next 5-10 years I'll probably only be playing the games I already own. People don't like being sold something, and then told there's always "take backs."

Hahah, yeah right. All talk. I've never seen a single instance of someone saying something like this and actually following through.

[Sam Jones]

One might ask, if they don't have the internet connection to authorize the game with, then how do they pirate the game to play it?


HMMMMMMM.

Not wanting online authorisation for offline software isn't just about facilitating piracy. It's also about not inconveniencing *paying* customers.

[fox1]

Fuck the PC. You guys don't want copy protection? Buy a console. The day will come where devs don't even bother porting to the PC, and it will be the bed you made.

This "Charles," he is angry man, yes?

[Mordrak]

Hahah, yeah right. All talk. I've never seen a single instance of someone saying something like this and actually following through.

You know, all I have is a PC right? I don't own any consoles. I don't even own a TV. Once publishers stop making games for the PC, I'm shit out of luck, whether I like it or not.



And yet there's still a difference between providing a floppy to a friend to make a copy in ten minutes, vs requiring them to download a game and burn 4gb of their (most likely) limited broadband cap.


Well in the US, broadband isn't limited like that for the most part. Thank god (and no, I don't mean for piracy, you accusatory bastards).

[Wheelkick]

[..]how did Nvidia make over a billion dollars in 2007?

They went for the console market (http://www.nvidia.com/page/console.html)

[Wheelkick]

You know, all I have is a PC right? I don't own any consoles. I don't even own a TV. Once publishers stop making games for the PC, I'm shit out of luck, whether I like it or not.

Well you could, you know, buy a console.

[cliffski]

Is changing business models so scary that you'll concede a market of a billion potential consumers? Doesn't that seem a bit short-sighted?

people who run a proper business sell to people who are willing and able to buy the product. Even Brad Wardell is on record as saying there is no point in making games for the asian market if those people aren't going to pay for them.

And people often toss out this "change your business model. duh!!!" as though this is something that they have vast experience of doing and know how to spin the business model on a sixpence.
if this is so, why aren't you rich guys? prove EA and Hollywood wrong, as you are obviously much better at managing billion dollar entertainment businesses than they are.

If changing business models means advertising, it means no more fantasy games where ads aren't appropriate. if changing business models means selling items, it means designing a game purely around people having to acquire items to win. if changing business models means persistent world multiplayer, it means giving up on turn based and single player story-led gaming.

In short, there isn't a big button inside every dev studio with "click here to change business model" written on it, that lets them still make decent games in the genre they specialise in.

[Mordrak]

Well you could, you know, buy a console.

I agree it's a personal choice, partly out of my situation and personality. Everything I own fits in a 8x10 room, I hate stuff that takes a bunch of space and requires maintenance. I used to own a bunch of consoles 4 years ago (nes,snes, playstation,xbox,gamecube,n64,dreamcast) and a myriad of games. Then I looked at the mess under the TV and how much of a pain it was just to manage the bullshit. So I sold it all and haven't gone back since.

Plus, I'm a big fan of mod scenes and indie games, which you can't get on consoles. I thought Oblivion was good, but seriously flawed game. Francesco's mod collection turned it into a great game for me. The same is true for Vampire Bloodlines, ToEE, etc. On a console, you're stuck with the crap the publisher gives you.

[krise madsen]

This is also true of your house. given a wrecking ball, and some motivation, I can steal your stereo tonight. Short of surrounding your house with a neutronium wall and a moat, lasers and submachinegun nests, you will never stop a determined thief stealing your stereo.

But you still lock the front door right? to deter the casual thief...

Except with some DRM, a security guard leaps out from behind the bushes on rare occasions and smack the living daylights out of whomever touches the door handle, be it a burglar or you in-law's visiting...

OK, I'll lay off the metaphors before this gets out of hand.

Anyhew, as a consumer, I have a few requirements: I don't want to keep a disc in the drive to play. I don't want to go online to play my offline single player game. And I want to install my game a bazillion times if it suits me. 3 install limit? Someone need to switch to decaf. Also, if I want to play the game 5 years from now (providing whatever OS/emulators will run it then), I don't want any trouble with missing authentication servers or shit like that. Simple, really.

I don't really think that's too much to ask for. Or rather, I don't really care. I want it. If a system can deliver that and eliminate piracy then I'm all the more for it. This is supposed to be a creative business. I suggest some creativity being thrown at this problem.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Alan Friesen]

Friends. How did people pirate before there was internet? If one person doesn't have internet, they can just get it from someone who does.

Amen! My friends pirate books off of me all the time. Well, we call it "lending" or "borrowing," but you get my drift. Now, I'm off to pirate some books from the library!

[mouselock]

Yeah we covered this too. This is clearly where many studios are heading, and it's silly. There are roughly one billion PCs in the world today. In comparison, MS sold 19 million xbox360s.

Yet over and over again PCs yield lower sales. So either the presumption that the higher market penetration of the PC leads to commensurate sales potential is flawed, or the assumption that piracy really is to blame there isn't. (Realistically I'm sure both are true. That $400 web browsing machine isn't going to be playing Mass Effect on an intel GMA 3100 or whatever integrated video card it has.)

[WarrenM]

Well, we call it "lending" or "borrowing," but you get my drift. Now, I'm off to pirate some books from the library!
Physical copies, can't be in 2 places at once, etc.

Since you're such a fan of reading, try reading some of the old piracy threads before getting involved in new ones.

[Alan Au]

People don't like being sold something, and then told there's always "take backs."Ah yes, that reminds me of DIVX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX_(Digital_Video_Express)).

- Alan

[Alan Friesen]

Physical copies, can't be in 2 places at once, etc.

Exactly. If I lend a friend my copy of Company of Heroes, I don't have access to the DVD any more. What was your point, exactly?

[Tom Ohle]

Anyhew, as a consumer, I have a few requirements: I don't want to keep a disc in the drive to play. I don't want to go online to play my offline single player game. And I want to install my game a bazillion times if it suits me. 3 install limit? Someone need to switch to decaf. Also, if I want to play the game 5 years from now (providing whatever OS/emulators will run it then), I don't want any trouble with missing authentication servers or shit like that. Simple, really.

Keeping a disc in the drive? Sure, that can be overcome -- digital distribution proves this. As for the issue of having to "go online to play my offline single player game" -- the complaint here is that it seems to be a huge issue to go online ONCE to authenticate the game for future playing. Is that really such a big problem?

[mouselock]

Not wanting online authorisation for offline software isn't just about facilitating piracy. It's also about not inconveniencing *paying* customers.

I have cable internet. It's always on.

I hereby volunteer for online authorization with every game I own if it'll keep me from having to use damn key discs ever again. 1TB of storage space, a quad core, a reasonably up to date video card, and I still have to go rooting around for the DVD/CD #1 in order to play a game? Fuck that!

Let's also point out that this is a spurious argument. Plenty of gamers use Steam or TotalGaming or any of the other direct download services happily despite the online authentication component. (Or, hell, Gametap.)

[Mordrak]

Physical copies, can't be in 2 places at once, etc.

Try to read some of the old piracy threads before getting involved in new ones.

True, but that's not why it's legal to loan a book out. Copying a game isn't the same as lending, but the right to transfer (or use in just about any way) a product I purchased is protected. That instance of a product becomes my property, to do with as I please except distribute copies.

[WarrenM]

Exactly. If I lend a friend my copy of Company of Heroes, I don't have access to the DVD any more. What was your point, exactly?
Mordrak was talking about piracy. You replied with a witty retort about borrowing books. Not the same thing.

[Alan Friesen]

As for the issue of having to "go online to play my offline single player game" -- the complaint here is that it seems to be a huge issue to go online ONCE to authenticate the game for future playing. Is that really such a big problem?

With all due respect, Tom, I think the issue is that Mass Effect/Spore lets you install your copy of the game three times before it says, "Nope, you can't play your own game any more." At least, this is one of the issues that I'm most concerned about.

[Alan Friesen]

Mordrak was talking about piracy. You replied with a witty retort about borrowing books. Not the same thing.

I take it you're not an author, then, where every book lent out means a lost commission.

[mouselock]

Ah yes, that reminds me of DIVX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX_(Digital_Video_Express)).

- Alan

Weren't DivX discs like $4 though?

I mean, the music services that "sell" 1 million songs for $15/month and have "takebacks" seem to be doing okay. I can see how that being the only game in town would be bad, but it's an awfully large generalization to make. GameTap is still growing, and you don't own any games you pay for there.

[cliffski]

Mass Effect/Spore lets you install your copy of the game three times before it says, "Nope, you can't play your own game any more."

Nope. you just need to contact EA in this case. I don't think many people will format their PC 3 times in the course of playing the game, and those that do, will have to type an email to EA. Is that such a big deal?

if it's that, or make those games console exclusives, I'm MORE than happy for them to do that.
Amazingly, most people do not format their PCs often. The QT3 crowd is not representative of the typical gamer.

[Mordrak]

Weren't DivX discs like $4 though?

I mean, the music services that "sell" 1 million songs for $15/month and have "takebacks" seem to be doing okay. I can see how that being the only game in town would be bad, but it's an awfully large generalization to make. GameTap is still growing, and you don't own any games you pay for there.

There will always be room for these services, but they offer a greater value proposition. Tell someone, for 15 bucks a month you can rent as many songs as you like. That they understand that. Tell someone you want them to pay 50,60, or even 70 dollars to essentially rent a game until you run out of tokens (or lose internet access) and they get angry. When people put out real money for something (and anything over 10-15 dollars is real money for us mouth-breathers), they want to be able to keep it. You also may be able to delineate these feelings along single item sales.

[Sam Jones]

Let's also point out that this is a spurious argument. Plenty of gamers use Steam or TotalGaming or any of the other direct download services happily despite the online authentication component. (Or, hell, Gametap.)

Also - plenty of gamers don't use those services, and plenty of offline PC software doesn't require online activation, including titles (that will be) sat next Mass Effect and Spore on the store shelves.

[Jakub]

Nope. you just need to contact EA in this case. I don't think many people will format their PC 3 times in the course of playing the game, and those that do, will have to type an email to EA. Is that such a big deal?

if it's that, or make those games console exclusives, I'm MORE than happy for them to do that.
Amazingly, most people do not format their PCs often. The QT3 crowd is not representative of the typical gamer.
Depends on the game.

I installed Civilization II at least a dozen times. Civ IV probably a half dozen so far. Alpha Centauri's been on one computer or another since it came out. Silent Hunter III saw close to 10 installations, just because I kept screwing around with mods. Medieval: Total War I installed at least 5 times. I can't recall how many times Half-Life has been installed and re-installed but "a lot" would probably underestimate it.

3 installations is bullshit.

[ZekeDMS]

I have cable internet. It's always on.

Indeed.

Sadly, my router sucks, and Cox is frequently fucking with the lines.

I don't mind online authorization, but I do mind when I can't play my game because my net has temporarily gone SHIT BONARZ!!1. If I can validate via disc check when my net is down(as someone said earlier as a solution), I'd find that much more tolerable, assuming there's a repeated online check. If it's say, one key check at the start, and the rest of the time they just trust me to it(aka, Stardock), I have no problem at all.

[Alan Friesen]

Nope. you just need to contact EA in this case. I don't think many people will format their PC 3 times in the course of playing the game, and those that do, will have to type an email to EA. Is that such a big deal?

Yes, it's a big deal! Let's pretend it's a few years down the road, and every game released from now till then uses this three-activation system. I don't want to have to sit around writing emails to various companies in order to install games that I've already played three times. Do you?

Moreover, as has already been noted in this thread, why should I, as a customer, be forced to wait for a company to grant me access to my own copy of a game when pirates have free and clear access to a game they didn't pay for? Why should I, as a customer, be inconvenienced for buying a game?

Here's an idea: sell two versions of a game. The first version is riddled to the bone with DRM and costs, say, $50. The second version has no DRM, can only be purchased and downloaded from the publisher's site, and costs $10 more. Average customers will buy the cheap version and will care less. I'll pay more for being able to have and keep a copy of a game for as long as I possibly can. Just a thought.

[Kunikos]

Apple lets you "unauthorize" machines with your authorized account in iTunes, so it would be nice if you could do the same with systems for games.

[cliffski]

Here's an idea: sell two versions of a game. The first version is riddled to the bone with DRM and costs, say, $50. The second version has no DRM, can only be purchased and downloaded from the publisher's site, and costs $10 more. Average customers will buy the cheap version and will care less. I'll pay more for being able to have and keep a copy of a game for as long as I possibly can. Just a thought.

And you honestly can't see the problem there?

[rrmorton]

Hasn't it been established that these three-installation copy protection schemes will only be in place for like a year or two? After that (for all the legacy gaming you guys are talking about) that limit will be lifted and you can install as many times as you want.

[Kunikos]

And you honestly can't see the problem there?

Maybe you should ask Amazon how they are making money on DRM free MP3 files?

[Alan Friesen]

And you honestly can't see the problem there?

Think about it for a few minutes. It'll come to you. (Hint: DRM doesn't stop pirates.)

[WarrenM]

Maybe you should ask Amazon how they are making money on DRM free MP3 files?
Are they? Have we seen financials on that yet?

[Alan Au]

Hasn't it been established that these three-installation copy protection schemes will only be in place for like a year or two? After that (for all the legacy gaming you guys are talking about) that limit will be lifted and you can install as many times as you want.The developers had hinted that they might do it, but I don't remember seeing anything official. Is there an announcement somewhere?

- Alan

[Charles]

Moreover, as has already been noted in this thread, why should I, as a customer, be forced to wait for a company to grant me access to my own copy of a game when pirates have free and clear access to a game they didn't pay for? Why should I, as a customer, be inconvenienced for buying a game?


The pirates won't have 'free and clear' access though. It takes a while for steam games to end up on warez sites.



Here's an idea: sell two versions of a game. The first version is riddled to the bone with DRM and costs, say, $50. The second version has no DRM, can only be purchased and downloaded from the publisher's site, and costs $10 more. Average customers will buy the cheap version and will care less. I'll pay more for being able to have and keep a copy of a game for as long as I possibly can. Just a thought.

Except the existence of the second destroys the reason for the first. Because then the second one just gets copied on to the net and then done. So the real cost of that one is probably missing some zeros.

[Alan Friesen]

The pirates won't have 'free and clear' access though. It takes a while for steam games to end up on warez sites.

I'm thinking about two or three years down the road. Again, imagine that Master of Orion 2 had a 3-install system: as a legal customer, I can't play the game, but somebody who pirated the game can. That's what I meant by "free and clear access."



Except the existence of the second destroys the reason for the first. Because then the second one just gets copied on to the net and then done. So the real cost of that one is probably missing some zeros.

So delay the DRM-free version for one or two weeks. During the hullabaloo about Bioshock DRM, weren't we told that publishers make the most of their money in the couple of weeks immediately following a game's release? I mean, really, what's the point of continuing to sell DRM-laden software once it's been cracked? The people who refuse to pay will pirate the game, and those of us with legitimate copies will (ultimately) be the ones inconvenienced.

[John Sansker]

The problem is that one of your major arguments seems to be against online authentication. You've magically managed to post on a message board, yet you can't be online to authenticate your game ONCE (in the case of Steam games)... I don't get it. If it's a fundamental boycott of anything even moderately protected from piracy, then it's just a terrible excuse for stealing games that justifies it to yourself.

Huh?
Seriously?
Cause I bought this interesting little game called Shadowgrounds Survivor, and EVERY time I start it up it fires up steam and calls home???

[Midnight Son]

Huh?
Seriously?
Cause I bought this interesting little game called Shadowgrounds Survivor, and EVERY time I start it up it fires up steam and calls home???

Steam must have reason to distrust you!

[AndrewM]

I'm thinking about two or three years down the road. Again, imagine that Master of Orion 2 had a 3-install system: as a legal customer, I can't play the game, but somebody who pirated the game can. That's what I meant by "free and clear access."

Hey, but it's okay! You can just write an email to Microprose to get them to authorize a new installation! Oh wait.

I don't see why people seem to believe that these games that require official permission each time you install them are still going to be runnable in a decade. Sure, EA will probably be around then, but what if they don't want to bother with running the authorization servers any more? We've already seen this with Microsoft, where they shut down the ability for people to transfer music from one machine to another because their service turned out to be unpopular.

Even claims that they'll shut off the authentication make me skeptical. Maybe they will, and there are instances of companies like Epic doing so, but EA isn't Epic. Why should they care? They already have your money. Maybe I'll just wait to buy the software until they get around to disabling the authentication.

[cliffski]

all companies are evil and out to trick you!!!!

if you don't like the terms, don't buy the game. that's up to you as consumers.
It doesn't in any space-time continuum justify piracy though.

Personally, I'll still buy the games. Decent PC games aren't commonplace. if they need to connect to a server to check I'm legit, that's fine. I'll live.

[Midnight Son]

Gotta love those compliant consumer sheep!

[John Sansker]

Let's see.
10 million people playing WoW.
100 million copies of Sims games sold.
Yeah, fuck the PC.
Or at least fuck us over harder than you have already with your shitty console-whore ports or stupid-ass versions of games. (Spiderman 2 for the PC FTW!!!)

[WarrenM]

10 million people playing WoW.
100 million copies of Sims games sold.
Yeah, fuck the PC.
You'd like to see all games developed for the low end hardware that WoW and the Sims target? I sure wouldn't.

[mouselock]

Hasn't it been established that these three-installation copy protection schemes will only be in place for like a year or two? After that (for all the legacy gaming you guys are talking about) that limit will be lifted and you can install as many times as you want.

Still waiting for them to lift the limit on my copy of Bioshock. (I hate the three limit DRM. So I just waited until Bioshock went on sale for a price that I found reasonable assuming every install somehow got eaten: $25.)

[Midnight Son]

I'm not playing WOW or Sims. So fuck PC games and all the moronic DRM bullshit.

I could use a new version of Master of Magic, though. (Meester Wardell, are you listening?)

[mouselock]

Maybe I'll just wait to buy the software until they get around to disabling the authentication.

Hark! A solution that doesn't involve piracy or the consumer being forced to deal with the evil, evil DRM. Clearly, he is a witch and must be burned!

[cliffski]

Gotta love those compliant consumer sheep!

me?

are you sheep because you STAND IN LINE at a till with clothes containing a SECURITY TAG and then have to SIGN YOUR NAME on a receipt, whilst SECURITY GUARDS and CAMERAS watch you?

what sheep they are in stores eh?

and don't get me started on the sheep who tolerate TEH EVIL DRM on console games.

[stusser]

And people often toss out this "change your business model. duh!!!" as though this is something that they have vast experience of doing and know how to spin the business model on a sixpence.
I believe I was fairly clear when I listed around seven or eight approaches and said that not all would work.

But really, your choices are limited. Change your business model, accept lower profits due to piracy, or give up on the PC market entirely.

Bitching and whining about pirates won't make them go away, and intrusive copy protection just makes your customers hate you.

[Charles]

Bitching and whining about pirates won't make them go away, and intrusive copy protection just makes a few vocal people complain on message boards.

Fixed that for you. If the customers actually hated the dev, again, they wouldn't play the game.

[Midnight Son]

me?

are you sheep because you STAND IN LINE at a till with clothes containing a SECURITY TAG and then have to SIGN YOUR NAME on a receipt, whilst SECURITY GUARDS and CAMERAS watch you?

what sheep they are in stores eh?

Sensitive, aren't we? Did they stop you for looking suspicious?



and don't get me started on the sheep who tolerate TEH EVIL DRM on console games.

The evil console DRM that I don't even know is there because it stays out of the way? Yeah, boyee!!

[Zylon]

You'd like to see all games developed for the low end hardware that WoW and the Sims target? I sure wouldn't.
Considering who you work for, this attitude could be most diplomatically described as "unsurprising".

[WarrenM]

Considering who you work for, this attitude could be most diplomatically described as "unsurprising".
So would you? That's the only way to reach Wow and Sims numbers unless you have information that I don't have.

[Midnight Son]

Yeah, we really need more casual shit for PC.

[Jab]

[QUOTE=cliffski;1356400]I have all 3 mentioned games, and play all 3 with zero issues. What would you prefer, a disk check (which you are complaining about) or an on-line check and no disk? (which you are complaining about).

QUOTE]


I would perfer no checks period, or at worse the system stardock has, one online check upon purchase and your done. In my opinion we have reached a point in the industry where you can't just get away with this crap and make a good game to have it sell. As a multi platform gamer my backlog is huge, and I can afford missing out on a game with horrible CP even if the game is going to be GOTY. The industry needs to start making brand awareness on it's companies, we buy games from Stardock not only because they're good but we know that they support their products and that they listen to their customers.

Game makers cannot live in a bubble anymore away from society and release a game , they need to be vocal about their game, that article regarding AE showed that Vic was on multiple forums promoting his game and buliding awareness for it. From my blog I talked about the importance of building this level of awareness and suggestions on how to do it:


"First is that copy protection on the user's end is faulty, if the user can get access to it then it is crackable no matter what the publishers say. Moving the copy protection to a one time check by the developers is the right way to go and getting rid of the CD requirement in games. Next, is rewarding the player for supporting the company. Most games aren't really designed for additional content such as the games from StarDock, but there are ways to reward legitimate customers. First is simply a price cut, instead of spending $50 in a store for a PC game, why not $40 if you buy directly from the developer's site? Another side of this solution is to only give patches out to people who register their legal copies of the game, I think this could really hurt the problem of piracy as we all know computer games can be pretty fickle with hardware configurations.



Third is better presentation, I want full color manuals and a greater attention to detail in designing them. One of my favorite companies is Double Jump Books that go the extra mile in their strategy guides, that should be the case with the actual packaging of the game as well don't you think ? Make it worth my while to buy your games and show me you actual give a damn about the customers. This one I will admit could be hard to implement, as I'm not knowledgeable on the pricing of full colored manuals.



Fourth, online access for offline purchased products. I just learned today that Blizzard is going to allow customers who bought their games to enter in their CD keys online and download non copy protected versions of their games. I could go over to Blizzard and kiss everyone responsible for this decision , but it could be pretty awkward afterwards. If the publisher is going to require copy protection in the store, then allow me to download a free version from your site minus the protection after giving the CD key, you know I bought a legitimate copy now give me the respect I deserve and not label me as a potential pirate"

To me it is really about the principle of the matter and that I've really run out of patience on this matter. I'll continue to boycott any games with CP that I don't like , I got plenty of other titles to play while I wait.

[Joe M.]

Apple's 5-computer limit can also be reset by filling out an online form and clicking submit, and it's guaranteed to be reset within 24 hours. If this were possible with ME DRM then I might consider buying it, but I'm annoyed by DVD checks (prefer online authorization honestly) and this DRM sounds about a hundred times worse. So, pass. I have a number of great games I'd love to finish someday anyway.

[stusser]

Fixed that for you. If the customers actually hated the dev, again, they wouldn't play the game.
You keep repeating that there's no casual link between intrusive copy protection and piracy, but that doesn't make it so. I think you're wrong, and I have just as much evidence as you do-- none.

[Zylon]

So would you? That's the only way to reach Wow and Sims numbers unless you have information that I don't have.
I don't make games, I play them. As such, I appreciate developers who don't code as if they own shares in Nvidia.

[Charles]

You keep repeating that there's no casual link between intrusive copy protection and piracy, but that doesn't make it so. I think you're wrong, and I have just as much evidence as you do-- none.

This has nothing to do with evidence, it has to do with whether or not you are still willing to enjoy the game. There's no reason, IMO, not to just buy the game, and then download your pirated version to avoid the DRM. Have your cake and eat it too. But don't go thinking the cake should be free on top of that.

If we're talking about people who pirate the game solely because of the DRM, then we are talking about people who could otherwise pay for it.

[cliffski]

Sensitive, aren't we? Did they stop you for looking suspicious?



The evil console DRM that I don't even know is there because it stays out of the way? Yeah, boyee!!


which is the same for company of heroes, sim city societies and sims 2. Apparently all 3 have evil DRM on, but I only know that because of these forums. I'm always online, I bought legal copies, I installed them and played.
As they installed, I probably alt+tabbed and read email. I can't do that on a console, because its actually FORBIDDEN on a console to run un-approved code. As I recall, if you try to mod YOUR xbox which YOU paid for, your lvie account can be revoked by microsoft. way to go guys!

So yeah, the DRM is (in most cases) just as unobtrusive on the PC as it is on console. if not way better.

[stusser]

You're making an irrelevant morality argument. Piracy is wrong. Sure. Agreed. But it's out there, and you need to deal with that by choosing one of three doors.

A) Give up on a billion+ PC market and just develop for consoles. Many studios are well on their way to doing this, and I feel it's shortsighted as well as a disservice to their shareholders.

B) Accept piracy leading to reduced revenues on PC and keep on truckin' as is. Problem is, with current-generation games requiring massive resources it won't be viable to do this forever, even if you just port console games after initial release. And that leads to an inferior product anyway.

C) Change your business model so that consumers are either encouraged not to pirate or base your revenues on something other than the initial purchase. Innovative indie developers and even large studios are exploring the hell out of option C. It remains to be seen which are ultimately successful.

[Charles]

You know, I laugh every time you say billion+ PC market.

Those new 486s in Cuba? Market!

[WarrenM]

I don't make games, I play them. As such, I appreciate developers who don't code as if they own shares in Nvidia.
I'm not sure what your argument is at this point. I pointed out that unless we develop games to target the same machines as WoW and the Sims do, it's not possible to his those kinds of numbers. You replied with an insinuation that I was biased because of where I work. I asked you for evidence to disprove my theory and instead you're offering me stories about how you enjoy games that don't require high end video cards.

So ... what can I do for you today?

[WarrenM]

Give up on a billion+ PC market and just develop for consoles. Many studios are well on their way to doing this, and I feel it's shortsighted as well as a disservice to their shareholders.
Developers don't do this without reason. If they look at their financials and see that they make a lot more money on consoles, well, a billion+ PCs be damned.

[Ranulf]

me?

are you sheep because you STAND IN LINE at a till with clothes containing a SECURITY TAG and then have to SIGN YOUR NAME on a receipt, whilst SECURITY GUARDS and CAMERAS watch you?

what sheep they are in stores eh?

and don't get me started on the sheep who tolerate TEH EVIL DRM on console games.

Cliffski, I worry about you bud. You're gonna bust a blood vessel or have a heart attack sometime while ranting about software piracy.

As to your comparison to clothing at a "brick n' mortar" store, its not the same. One, you sign your name on a receipt only if you're paying by some form of credit or debit card or the old fashioned check. Pay cash and they don't know and usually don't care who you are. Two, those security tags come off the products once you've paid and left the store. There is no PRM (pants rights management) check every time you pull up yer drawers or enter a store and pass by their scanners. Though, some worry that might happen with certain RFID chip technology.

"Hello, JCPenny's? Yes, my zipper's stuck again. Can you re authorize me? Or upgrade me to a bigger size?"

As for security guards, don't shop at those stores then (my local bestbuy seems to have stopped the receipt checking deal 1-2 years ago) or walk on by them as in the US they have no right to search your bag once you've paid. They'll be up shit creek if they stop you forcefully, detain you and search you without permission and not find anything stolen.

[Charles]

Developers don't do this without reason. If they look at their financials and see that they make a lot more money on consoles, well, a billion+ PCs be damned.

Plus, it continues to be willfully ignorant.

If people can't afford a reasonably current PC, with prices of decent PCs hovering around $400 nowadays, it's a stretch to think they'd be willing to pay $40-$60 for a game, regardless of if it runs on their machine or not.

And of course, thinking you can sell videogames to everyone who owns a computer is laughable all on its own.

[Nezz]

You know, I laugh every time you say billion+ PC market.

Those new 486s in Cuba? Market!
Of course it's a market. Perhaps you mean to say that you are unable to make a good game that would run on such a platform, but that says more about your talent than it says about the platform.

[Zylon]

I'm not sure what your argument is at this point. I pointed out that unless we develop games to target the same machines as WoW and the Sims do, it's not possible to his those kinds of numbers.
I'm not arguing anything. You said, "You'd like to see all games developed for the low end hardware that WoW and the Sims target? I sure wouldn't." I interpreted this as meaning that you prefer to develop for high-end hardware. Was that wrong? If so, what exactly do you have against the majority hardware base?

[Charles]

Of course it's a market.

Sure, but it's not the market anyone in this thread it talking about, genius.


Perhaps you mean to say that you are unable to make a good game that would run on such a platform, but that says more about your talent than it says about the platform.

Oh no! Sir, you have impugned my dignity! Award yourself ten points and then brag to all your friends about how you launched an insult on the internet!

[Kareem]

That was my only post in this thread.

Thanks for fixing THAT dichotomy!

[stusser]

Yeah, historically Cliff is pretty funny in all these threads.

A market is a market. Maybe you'd prefer to grow wheat, but if you leave a huge rocky field fallow because it's lower yield, it won't grow anything at all when you could be making money on soybeans.

[WarrenM]

So the future of gaming is to design games for 486s in Cuba. Thanks for the info!

[Charles]

A market is a market.

And a fruit is a fruit.

[Matt Perkins]

So the pro PC gaming argument has fallen all the way down to, "there sure are a lot of them buggers to install on!" ?

[LesJarvis]

It's hilarious to watch Charles and Warren try to disparage the two most successful PC games (or franchise in the case of The Sims) of the 21st century for not having flashy enough graphics. Yep, all those WoW and Sims players are just Cubans on 486s. What a waste of money to target anything other than bleeding edge hardware! Don't ever change you two.

[WarrenM]

It's hilarious to watch Charles and Warren try to disparage the two most successful PC games (or franchises in the case of The Sims) of the 21st century for not having flashy enough graphics. Yep, all those WoW and Sims players are just Cubans on 486s. What a waste of money to target anything other than bleeding edge hardware! Don't ever change you two.
So is what you'd like? For every game developer to targets 486s in Cuba? Because that doesn't sound good to me.

[LesJarvis]

No, I'd like a pony.

[Charles]

It's hilarious to watch Charles and Warren try to disparage the two most successful PC games (or franchise in the case of The Sims) of the 21st century for not having flashy enough graphics. Yep, all those WoW and Sims players are just Cubans on 486s. What a waste of money to target anything other than bleeding edge hardware! Don't ever change you two.

Don't lump me in with Warren. I have no problem with WoW's graphics, but the simple fact is that WoW's level of hardware requirement doesn't give them a billion computer market. Not even close.

Same probably goes for the Sims, if it's 3d, which I'm pretty sure it is.

[WarrenM]

And I never said anything bad about those games unless you interpret my saying that they have low system requirements as "disparaging". Sounds more like a fact to me.

[LesJarvis]

Don't lump me in with Warren. I have no problem with WoW's graphics, but the simple fact is that WoW's level of hardware requirement doesn't give them a billion computer market. Not even close.

Same probably goes for the Sims, if it's 3d, which I'm pretty sure it is.

Fair enough, I should not have lumped you in with Warren. What you said wasn't as dumb.

But still, it's just as disingenuous to shrug off the huge market for PC games with moderate or low system requirements as a bunch of 486s in Cuba as it is to say there's a billion-PC market. It's fine if you guys don't feel like your games need to target that market, there's a lot of money to be made in that sphere.

[Zylon]

Don't lump me in with Warren. I have no problem with WoW's graphics, but the simple fact is that WoW's level of hardware requirement doesn't give them a billion computer market. Not even close.
So you caught someone out in an exaggeration. Big whoop. As Blizzard and Valve have demonstrated for years on end, the big money is in delivering great games with good graphics, not good games with great graphics.

How did this thread turn from DRM to hardware target demographics?

[Mordrak]

So the pro PC gaming argument has fallen all the way down to, "there sure are a lot of them buggers to install on!" ?

From what perspective? As a player, it gives me much more control of how I play my games. It gives me one machine over time, due to that control and enthusiasts, will continue to play the games I buy for as long as I want to play them.

[Charles]

Fair enough, I should not have lumped you in with Warren. What you said wasn't as dumb.

But still, it's just as disingenuous to shrug off the huge market for PC games with moderate or low system requirements as a bunch of 486s in Cuba as it is to say there's a billion-PC market. It's fine if you guys don't feel like your games need to target that market, there's a lot of money to be made in that sphere.

It's not shrugging it off -- it's a completely different market. You can't make games for a 486 in the same way that you make games for a modern computer. We're not talking about some alternate market, we're talking about the current market for PC gaming as it is currently known.

[stusser]

Here we go with the strawmen again. No, you don't have to target 486s in Cuba, but it would make a great deal of sense to write games that gracefully scale down to a 2.4Ghz pentium4 with 512MB RAM and integrated intel GMA 950 video.

Obviously that spec doesn't work with the newest unreal engine 4 300,000+ man-hour AAA space marine brown shooter for xmas 2008, but that's fine. Those games will continue to be made, they'll just be increasingly multiplatform.

[LesJarvis]

It's not shrugging it off -- it's a completely different market. You can't make games for a 486 in the same way that you make games for a modern computer. We're not talking about some alternate market, we're talking about the current market for PC gaming as it is currently known.

I'm not talking about the Cuban 486 market, I'm talking about the WoW/Sims market.

[ProStyle]

A market is a market.

Hah! Do you think Honda and Harley owners break down on the same demographics? Rolls Royce and Toyota? Name a business that started out as a high end specialty developer or manufacturer that now appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Anyways, insulting a guy from Epic about where they could and could not handle themselves is more telling about a users historical context than anything. Epic was on 386's with Jill of the Jungle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_of_the_Jungle), and if you want to go back to that shit fine - just don't drag us and the rest of the conversation with you.

[stusser]

Umm, what's your point? The market exists, if you don't exploit it you lose out. And here we are back to the 386 strawman again. Keep up, Gumby.

[ProStyle]

Umm, what's your point? The market exists, if you don't exploit it you lose out. And here we are back to the 386 strawman again. Keep up, Gumby.

Uh, the point is luxury auto manufacturers are completely unconcerned with the rest of the consumer market which has %0 to do with their bottom line.

Just like people who develop UE3 games for platforms with locked down specs could give a shit less that they don't appeal to the rest of "the market" that doesn't exist for them when they don't even bother to port their game to PC because it's a waste of their time.

[madkevin]

Hah! Do you think Honda and Harley owners break down on the same demographics? Rolls Royce and Toyota? Name a business that started out as a high end specialty developer or manufacturer that now appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Levi Strauss & Co.

[Zylon]

Name a business that started out as a high end specialty developer or manufacturer that now appeals to the lowest common denominator.
That's a silly question. A better one would be to name manufacturers who started out high-end, then diversified their product line to include the low end.

IBM comes to mind, for starters.

[LesJarvis]

Uh, the point is luxury auto manufacturers are completely unconcerned with the rest of the consumer market which has %0 to do with their bottom line.


Yeah, luxury auto manufacturers like Infiniti...which is actually owned by Nissan.

OK, OK, Lexus then. They make luxury cars, right? Oh, except they're a brand of Toyota.

I've got it, Bentley! Hard to get much more luxurious than a Bentley. You know, Bentley, the one owned by the Volkswagen group?

So you were saying?

[stusser]

Just like people who develop UE3 games for platforms with locked down specs could give a shit less that they don't appeal to the rest of "the market" that doesn't exist for them when they don't even bother to port their game to PC because it's a waste of their time.
Which I believed I just covered in my "unreal engine 4 300,000+ man-hour AAA space marine brown shooter for xmas 2008" post. Again, Gumby, keep up!

[Charles]

Here we go with the strawmen again. No, you don't have to target 486s in Cuba, but it would make a great deal of sense to write games that gracefully scale down to a 2.4Ghz pentium4 with 512MB RAM and integrated intel GMA 950 video.


And yet if you are going to target that market, you might as well be making handheld games on the DS. You can't make modern games on such strict requirements and expect them to hit the same market. You are now making games that look like they came out in 2002, or earlier, and while I'd never say you can't make good games with those restrictions, the simple fact is that the core of the pc gaming market doesn't want games that look like ass. Yes, of course, there are people there you can sell it to, but (and I hate this part) you sure as shit aren't going to generate any hype or interest. And that means it's hard to get funding, a publisher, ads, coverage, etc.



Obviously that spec doesn't work with the newest unreal engine 4 300,000+ man-hour AAA space marine brown shooter for xmas 2008, but that's fine. Those games will continue to be made, they'll just be increasingly multiplatform.

If you'd written this in 2003 I'd call you a visionary. But predicting the past is pretty easy, isn't it?

[Iorek_Byrnison]

THAT'S THE SPIRIT!!!

[stusser]

OK, that was a pretty good burn! But with you guys joyfully lighting up strawmen left and right, I feel that even the obvious must be stated with no ambiguity, or you'll simply rewrite what I said into something blindingly stupid and then disagree with it to roaring applause from the peanut gallery.

Now lets discuss deer hunter, and runescape, and dofus, and bejeweled, and puzzle quest, and WoW, and counterstrike. The "core of the PC gaming market" is your traditional enthusiast gamer, and he's being served today. All those jokers running low-end pieces of shit aren't. They're the billion-plus untapped market.

[mouselock]

Now lets discuss deer hunter, and runescape, and dofus, and bejeweled, and puzzle quest, and WoW, and counterstrike. The "core of the PC gaming market" is your traditional enthusiast gamer, and he's being served today. All those jokers running low-end pieces of shit aren't. They're the billion-plus untapped market.

What the holy fuck does this have to do with egregious DRM abuses?

And I'd argue that this market segment is being served fine, given that Bejeweled, Puzzle Quest and the like have tons of representation in the casual game space. A space, one could point out, which is completely fucking locked up by online activation setups with limited token use restrictions with nary a peep from the customer base succumbing to these games.

[Charles]

Now lets discuss deer hunter, and runescape, and dofus, and bejeweled, and puzzle quest, and WoW, and counterstrike. The "core of the PC gaming market" is your traditional enthusiast gamer, and he's being served today. All those jokers running low-end pieces of shit aren't. They're the billion-plus untapped market.

If you want to go plant an apple orchard, that's fine. We're talking about what to do with all these oranges.

[Alan Au]

And yet if you are going to target that market, you might as well be making handheld games on the DS.It should be no surprise that a number of developers are doing just that. Of course, that doesn't help the PC gaming community at all. At least, not the part of the community that includes me.

I'm not really irked by games that have high recommended requirements, but with my aging PC, I wish the minimum requirements were more forgiving. That is, I'll sacrifice some quality for the ability to play without needing cutting-edge hardware. Granted, I'm overdue for an upgrade, but I want to do so without worrying that my machine will be obsolete in 6 months. Or I could just circumvent the whole issue by getting a 360, provided I can put up with the interface simplifications.

Back on the topic of DRM, I think it's telling that the first two things I check for when I purchase a game are a patch, and a no-CD crack. Online systems seem like a better solution, except that the combination of a flaky wireless connection and server-side accessibility issues have soured me on the reliability of online validation/auto-patching. Sure, it's partly my fault, except that there's no reason why my access to offline-only games should be contingent on my connection quality.

- Alan

[Zylon]

And yet if you are going to target that market, you might as well be making handheld games on the DS. You can't make modern games on such strict requirements and expect them to hit the same market.
Are you denying that Valve somehow manages to make games that look great on bleeding-edge rigs, yet also gracefully scale down to hardware that's a few generations old?

[Charles]

Are you denying that Valve somehow manages to make games that look great on bleeding-edge rigs, yet also gracefully scale down to hardware that's a few generations old?

YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM DOING THANK YOU

[cliffski]

Cliffski, I worry about you bud. You're gonna bust a blood vessel or have a heart attack sometime while ranting about software piracy.


WTF is it with people here? is it some american thing that you just assume everyone is more stressed than they are?*
I work from home, for myself, with no boss, my own hours, and make a decent living. I'm in zero danger of bursting a blood vessel, unlike the venom-spitting anti-drm zealots who rant and fume at me on teh interweb.
If it helps you deal with cubicle stress, vent at me. Don't worry about me, apart from drinking too much wine whilst watching the apprentice, I'm fine!

If you don't like games with DRM, don't buy them. Thats fine. the people making games with DRM do not care. The percentage of the real market who don't buy a game because of its DRM is miniscule. Knock yourselves out guys.

As it happens, ironically, I use very little in the way of DRM because the market I sell to (like stardocks) is fine without it. But I absolutely understand why Bioshock and Company of Heroes and Spore use it.

*in my experience the same is true of Derek Smart, he is quite a chilled and friendly guy if you chat to him by email, its only the people who rant AT him on the web who assume he must be a flaming stress ball.

[Papageno]

OK, I'll admit I haven't read the 90-page thread in its entirety, but what is the bottom line on Mass Effect's DRM? It phones home once on install, there are a limited number of installs (3? revocable?), and it somehow will stop working if it detects too many hardware changes? Have I got it right?

[Iorek_Byrnison]

This is also true of your house. given a wrecking ball, and some motivation, I can steal your stereo tonight. Short of surrounding your house with a neutronium wall and a moat, lasers and submachinegun nests, you will never stop a determined thief stealing your stereo.

But you still lock the front door right? to deter the casual thief...

Steal my stereo? Steal my stereo?! How quaint! Dude, you can HAVE my stereo!

As for locking the door, I've got a .45 and shovel; just try coming in without an invitation.

[stusser]

Derek Smart
*looks in mirror*

BLOODY MARY
BLOODY MARY
BLOODY MARY

[Kareem]

Papageno: the installs aren't revocable, which is the deal-breaker for yours truly.

[malkav11]

What's ironic to me is that Bioware has something going in the Stardock "reward registered users" mode - registered owners of a PC copy of the game will be able to download the Bring Down the Sky DLC free. And yet it's still got the shitty DRM that it's got.

I should point out, by the way, that I'm okay with paying $5-10 a month for Gametap in the full knowledge that the instant I stop paying that money, Gametap shuts down, or Gametap removes some or all of its games from the service, I lose access. Why? Because it's a rental fee that covers everything on the service. Furthermore, if I should care to have an entirely permanent, accessible copy of the games on their service (absent Uru Live, which was massively multiplayer), I can buy them elsewhere. This is in no way analogous to paying $40-50 on a game by game basis for access of dubious permanency and without legal ways of obtaining said permanency.

[Kunikos]

This is also true of your house. given a wrecking ball, and some motivation, I can steal your stereo tonight. Short of surrounding your house with a neutronium wall and a moat, lasers and submachinegun nests, you will never stop a determined thief stealing your stereo.

But you still lock the front door right? to deter the casual thief...

Not everyone does this. If you live in a gated or small rural community and own (and know how to use) a gun and live in area with both extremely harsh penalties for B&E and leniency for killing intruders...

[Dhruin]

OK, I'll admit I haven't read the 90-page thread in its entirety, but what is the bottom line on Mass Effect's DRM? It phones home once on install, there are a limited number of installs (3? revocable?), and it somehow will stop working if it detects too many hardware changes? Have I got it right?

Sort of. There are actually no install limits on the same hardware - you can format and reinstall as many times as you like. The limit is with changing hardware configurations.

[Kunikos]

So yeah, like the title says, like Bioshock.

[NowhereDan]

I simply have a hard time believing that a company like EA, Valve, or pretty much anyone else would evaporate and not release a patch that would remove this type of DRM. Even if the company did die off suddenly, surely a former employee would put something out - I know there are a lot of game developers on this board that wouldn't want to see their paying customers screwed and their hard work rendered unplayable.

That's not to say it's impossible, or that I trust major media corporations. Ironically, I think that I feel secure because I know that there will always be cracks released to defeat the DRM.

[Kool Moe Dee]

As a consumer and developer, I would feel much more comfortable with some sort of escrow system to ensure that, in the event of a company's demise, its games are not rendered unplayable due to DRM.

[Jab]

What I really want to see is a requirement that either the developer or publisher after a certain period of time will remove all CP from a game. At a certain point the only people that are playing a game are the long time fans, and I doubt there are alot of sales at that point.

[cliffski]

Steal my stereo? Steal my stereo?! How quaint! Dude, you can HAVE my stereo!

As for locking the door, I've got a .45 and shovel; just try coming in without an invitation.


you never leave the house?

Besides what makes you think the intruder doesn't have a gun, and the element of surprise. His gun is probably loaded and with the safety catch off. is yours?

[intruder]

you never leave the house?

Besides what makes you think the intruder doesn't have a gun, and the element of surprise. His gun is probably loaded and with the safety catch off. is yours?

I don't own a gun. :p

[Wheelkick]

Guns do not prevent thieves from breaking into your house. A shovel might, if you used it to block the entrance

[Papageno]

Sort of. There are actually no install limits on the same hardware - you can format and reinstall as many times as you like. The limit is with changing hardware configurations.

So I have to keep the original machine around if I feel like playing it again 5 years down the road? Pfft. NO SALE. Too bad, I was curious about the game. Hope it comes to Steam or Stardock eventually, where the fact that I own a copy means, you know, that I own it, and not that I'm the humble recipient of the gracious publisher's beneficence in letting me play it for a while.

[thamer]

I simply have a hard time believing that a company like EA, Valve, or pretty much anyone else would evaporate and not release a patch that would remove this type of DRM. Even if the company did die off suddenly, surely a former employee would put something out - I know there are a lot of game developers on this board that wouldn't want to see their paying customers screwed and their hard work rendered unplayable.

That's not to say it's impossible, or that I trust major media corporations. Ironically, I think that I feel secure because I know that there will always be cracks released to defeat the DRM.

It has ALREADY HAPPENED:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FXG/is_8_12/ai_55610557

It also continues to happen to the PC gaming platform as more companies go under and their games suffer from bitrot and ceases to function. DRM just preorders the nails for the coffin so that it becomes even harder to keep a game alive.

These companies don't care about the customer at all. They don't care about a long term relationship. This is why so many people stick to fewer games per year and go casual.

[NowhereDan]

It has ALREADY HAPPENED:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FXG/is_8_12/ai_55610557

It also continues to happen to the PC gaming platform as more companies go under and their games suffer from bitrot and ceases to function. DRM just preorders the nails for the coffin so that it becomes even harder to keep a game alive.

These companies don't care about the customer at all. They don't care about a long term relationship. This is why so many people stick to fewer games per year and go casual.

There are a lot of important differences here, though:
1) This is a hardware problem, and hardware is not patchable
2) They didn't own the content, so they weren't in a position to take the DRM off of it and put unprotected movies out in the wild. If 2K went under, they would be within their rights to release a BioShock patch that killed off the DRM in the installer.
3) The whole idea of that format was a pay-per-view rental. You never owned anything except the hardware.

Edit:
Also!

For those who bought their Divx players before June 16, 1999 and paid full price, Digital Video Express is offering $100 cash rebates in an effort to compensate consumers for shelling out extra money for the Divx feature; those who spent $19.99 to upgrade their Divx discs for unlimited viewing also will get a refund.
Doesn't seem like they left people out in the cold.

Anyway, as far as I know, there has not yet been a game that's been rendered unplayable due to its DRM being unable to check in with a server. Yet.

I wholeheartedly agree with Jab, though. I would very much like to see a commitment from publishers to unshackle their games after a certain period - say two years. That would keep me from having to rely on the hackers to ensure my games remain playable.

[Kareem]

So yeah, like the title says, like Bioshock.

No it's not like Bioshock. I was okay with Bioshock's DRM measures because they provided an install revoke tool that gave you back an install token when you uninstalled the game.

[krise madsen]

OW, my head hurts. What were we debating again? Oh yes, DRM.

I can't believe we're still debating the morality of this issue. "It's not fair!" is not an argument.

Is occasional online verification or keeping the disc in the drive really that much of an inconvenience? Honestly? No, not really. It's a minor inconvenience. But it's a minor inconvenience that is easily avoided by not having DRM. What do I care if it opens the door for piracy. I'm here to play games, not fight pirates. No inconvenience is better than a minor inconvenience.

BTW: The 3 install limit is a major inconvenience. I'll probably not need more than 3 installs, but the game isn't worth the potential trouble down the road. Also, minority or not, any customer who do get tangled in the faulty DRM probably isn't going to buy any of your other products anytime soon. How many people who got burned on the MS music DRM debacle will jump on the next MS DRM bandwagon? I'm guessing not many.

So I might use a cracked version for playing. Is that fair? Is that sending the right ("no more DRM!") message to the industry? What do I care? I'm here to play games. Hey, I hate the fact that the majority of gamers are a bunch of fucking lemmings that will mindlessly chase the next great glitter game when I want something entirely different. Is that fair? Who cares? Those lemmings buy several million copies. I buy one copy. "Fair" doesn't enter the equasion.

Not so long ago, I bought an old re-re-release. In fact, I got 3 copies for some LAN play with friends. Turns out it had no DRM so one copy would really have been enough. Had I known in advance I'd still have bought 3 copies, but then I'm odd that way. My good friends (who are otherwise sensible, law abiding adults) I'm not so sure about. Which, to me, makes a compelling case for DRM to prevent casual pirating.

On the other hand, not having to bother with DRM was just so damned convenient. We played it on some old PC's we could use after work. Turns out the game was on a DVD and we had only one external DVD drive, but with no DRM that wasn't a problem. Nor were there any worries about wasting install tokens, online authentication, getting each others copies mixed up, scratching the disc or other such usual precautions. In fact, I'm not quite sure where I put my copy, but then I don't have to worry. I like that. A lot. So much in fact that DRM affects which games I'd buy and how much I'd pay for them.

So why not a compromise? Like removing the nastier DRM featuers once the initial stampede is over (which is a lot sooner than two years), keeping some simple copy protection (to dissuade casual piracy) and providing Stardock-style infinite re-downloads and whatnot so I don't have to worry about where I put the disc. You know, we all get most (but not all) of what we want. Perfect it may not be, but it sure beats digging deeper trenches.

Respectfully

krise madsen

PS: Oh, and PC gaming isn't dying. It's changing. OK, so CoD5 may not be for consoles only, but if that's your flavor in gaming you should probably move to consoles anyway. When I say "change the business model" what I'm really saying is that there are plenty of money in PC gaming, but getting at it requires doing things differently than the traditional way. And those who do can make a lot of money. You know, like Blizzard did with WoW.

[WarrenM]

WTF is it with people here? is it some american thing that you just assume everyone is more stressed than they are?*
Mostly, it's just for you. Whenever you get involved in threads you inevitably end up yelling and calling people names - and usually pretty quickly. That would indicate someone who is fairly stressed and/or tense.

[Rob_Merritt]

You know what is also a pain in the ass? My mass effect preorder has been sitting at "sourced" at gogamer for 3 days now.

[Lee Johnson]

As a consumer and developer, I would feel much more comfortable with some sort of escrow system to ensure that, in the event of a company's demise, its games are not rendered unplayable due to DRM.
But... but... that would cost money! Who would pay for maintaining that system? I can't see publishers being motivated to do it.

The idea is not without its merit, but I think the easier solution is, "drop the useless DRM".

[cliffski]

Mostly, it's just for you. Whenever you get involved in threads you inevitably end up yelling and calling people names - and usually pretty quickly. That would indicate someone who is fairly stressed and/or tense.

no its not me. its people who insult me. Remember that idiot who pretended to have slept with my mother? that's the level of maturity of people on here when they get wound up about DRM.
Try getting some facts straight kiddo.

[Kareem]

Yes cliffski, it's everyone but you.

[WarrenM]

Try getting some facts straight kiddo.
Kiddo? Why was that you said about about level of maturity? I don't think we're at the insult stage yet, bucko.

[Kunikos]

I'm not your kiddo, bucko!

I'm not your bucko, son!

I'm not your son, kiddo!

[intruder]

I'm exalted with your mom.

On topic: DRM sucks. I'm buying a game not a license to use some shit as long as some suits think I'm entitled to enjoy my purchase.

[Kunikos]

Guns do not prevent thieves from breaking into your house.

No but it prevents them from being alive afterwards.


No it's not like Bioshock. I was okay with Bioshock's DRM measures because they provided an install revoke tool that gave you back an install token when you uninstalled the game.

What, uninstalling Mass Effect doesn't do this? Lame.

[Alan Au]

Well, it's out today, which means we'll have a chance to see whether or not consumers actually care about the DRM, and how fast the cracks start showing up.

- Alan

[Matt Perkins]

Well, it's out today, which means we'll have a chance to see whether or not consumers actually care about the DRM, and how fast the cracks start showing up.

- Alan
The question that really needs to be answered is this... are torrents available yet? Did the DRM actually help at all?

[thamer]

I'm not linking to any software by doing this, just a news site with where warez groups announce they released something. These aren't even torrent links:

This is not safe for work though. You've been warned.

nforce.nl (http://www.nforce.nl/index.php)

No official announcement yet about Mass Effect. I'm going to guess this will go the same way as Steam warezing did. It turned into a futile arms race of patches until the pirates gave up.

[Damien Neil]

no its not me. its people who insult me. Remember that idiot who pretended to have slept with my mother? that's the level of maturity of people on here when they get wound up about DRM.

For what it's worth, you come off as being seethingly angry not just at pirates, but at anyone whose opinion differs from yours even slightly. That may not be your intent, but that's how it reads to me.

And, frankly, you're calling the kettle black when you talk about people getting wound up about DRM.

[ZekeDMS]

The dickery of Starforce telling us where to get GalCiv II comes to mind with this last post.

I wouldn't be too surprised if this one takes longer than usual because it is something new. ME is a pretty good test, I bet, of how long it really takes to crack something.

[cliffski]

Kiddo? Why was that you said about about level of maturity? I don't think we're at the insult stage yet, bucko.

Dude, you are delusional if you think I give a fuck what you think.
Go design a crate for Unreal 4.
I'm done with this place.

[Ergo]

Hooray!

[Tankero]

Well, that was a rather effective paraphrasing of Cartman.

Nevertheless, if cliffski was telling of the level of intellectual sophistication of developers as a whole, a lot of those juvenile games would make sense to me. As he isn't, those titles will continue to perplex and mystify.

[ZekeDMS]

I think "Go design a crate" might be my favorite dismissal phrase ever.

Man, we're getting the yentas treatment for this...

[quatoria]

Dude, you are delusional if you think I give a fuck what you think.
Go design a crate for Unreal 4.

Of course, you never get angry or start insulting people, or anything. Good that you were able to clear that up for us.


I'm done with this place.

And there was much rejoicing.

[WarrenM]

Dude, you are delusional if you think I give a fuck what you think.
Go design a crate for Unreal 4.
I'm done with this place.
Don't make promises you won't keep.

[Alan Au]

See this is the real tragedy of DRM--it gets people wound up and tears internet communities apart from the inside.
O tempora! O mores!

- Alan

[Drastic]

Many good catchphrase potentials die off never to gain popularity, like baby sea turtles being gobbled up while floundering to the ocean. But I do really hope "go design a crate!" makes it. I'll try to do my part.

[Brendan]

Come now, cliffski has some interesting things to say when he dials the spittleometer down a few notches.

Don't go cliffski. Just avoid the DRM/piracy threads for a while.

[Greatatlantic]

Well, just got my picked up my pre-order of Mass Effect, installed it, and planned on playing it. The moment it tries to start the game, it crashes. For reasons not related to the game, I just did a clean format two days ago. I'm thinking copy protection might be the culprit.

Edit: On the otherhand, I am running 64-bit Vista here, so that might be doing something. However, the sudden nature of the crash has me thinking copy protection.

[idrisz]

Well, just got my picked up my pre-order of Mass Effect, installed it, and planned on playing it. The moment it tries to start the game, it crashes. For reasons not related to the game, I just did a clean format two days ago. I'm thinking copy protection might be the culprit.

haha, that's awesome, I'm picking up mine at work.

Come on Reloaded, poop out a crack already.

[Alan Friesen]

Well, just got my picked up my pre-order of Mass Effect, installed it, and planned on playing it. The moment it tries to start the game, it crashes. For reasons not related to the game, I just did a clean format two days ago. I'm thinking copy protection might be the culprit.

Edit: On the otherhand, I am running 64-bit Vista here, so that might be doing something. However, the sudden nature of the crash has me thinking copy protection.

Liar! Games with copy protection never crash; you're obviously a filthy, filthy, filthy pirate.

[Jason McMaster]

Don't make promises you won't keep.

Less talk, MORE CRATES!

[Shadari]

I feel so defective. I actually kinda like crates in shooters. :(

[Zylon]

I feel so defective. I actually kinda like crates in shooters. :(
Heathen! Bow before the glory of the Exploding Barrel.

[Tortilla]

no its not me. its people who insult me. Remember that idiot who pretended to have slept with my mother? that's the level of maturity of people on here when they get wound up about DRM.
Try getting some facts straight kiddo.

Whoa Whoa Whoa, I can't let this one slide by without correction. I did not "pretend" to sleep with your mother. I flat out stated she was a dirty street walker with 10 quid of mine in her tiny handbag. Let's be really clear about that.

[schurem]

i damn near clicked buy on the EA store and then i found out they only allow me to use the game for like two years. What The Frack.

[Roy Ziegler]

i damn near clicked buy on the EA store and then i found out they only allow me to use the game for like two years. What The Frack.

you could always just download the eventual crack

[stusser]

Found this comparison image (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=masslarge14wz9.jpg) on the nforce forums while researching to see if it had indeed been pirated yet (it hasn't). The PC version has a ton less aliasing, but the 360 version appears to have some distance blur. Overall I like the PC screenshot better. Still not buying it due to the DRM, though.

Cliff, you clearly don't realize this, but you're like a rabid dog in every piracy thread. It's not "everybody", it's just you. Calm down, man.

[LesJarvis]

I'd sort of been holding at hope that they were going to rethink the DRM move, or perhaps make the game available on Steam without the DRM, but clearly that's not gonna happen. Which sucks, because I passed this up on the 360 and decided to wait for the PC since it (presumably) has a better interface and hopefully less load times. I refuse to support such DRM schemes, though, so it looks like I'll just have to take a pass on it. Too bad.

Edit: DING!

[schurem]

why can't all games be on steam? steam frackin pwns. why does it pwn? take notes EA:

1) you buy a game, you retain the right to download the game until the end of time

2) you can pay for your games with paypal (yea direct2drive, what's up with that?)

3) integrating a patcher, a storefront and a comunity thinger, what genius!

[Roy Ziegler]

why can't all games be on steam? steam frackin pwns. why does it pwn? take notes EA:

1) you buy a game, you retain the right to download the game until the end of time


About that. Is it possible for publishers to end whatever agreement (or it expires and they decide not to renew) they have with Valve to sell their game, thus preventing you from downloading it again?

[thamer]

I'd sort of been holding at hope that they were going to rethink the DRM move, or perhaps make the game available on Steam without the DRM, but clearly that's not gonna happen. Which sucks, because I passed this up on the 360 and decided to wait for the PC since it (presumably) has a better interface and hopefully less load times. I refuse to support such DRM schemes, though, so it looks like I'll just have to take a pass on it. Too bad.

Edit: DING!

I only completed the game once. It's no KOTOR.

[Fugitive]

About that. Is it possible for publishers to end whatever agreement (or it expires and they decide not to renew) they have with Valve to sell their game, thus preventing you from downloading it again?
I was curious about that myself, and by my reading of section 13.C of the subscriber's agreement, (http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=subscriber_agreement) they can revoke your access to any Steam game for any reason and without any compensation. I'm certainly no lawyer, though.

Edit: And it's probably fairly standard boilerplate, not necessarily anything ominous. No sane company will ever say they'll guarantee something in perpetuity throughout the universe.

[Kareem]

What, uninstalling Mass Effect doesn't do this? Lame.

Nope, despite the 3 installs limit, you don't get your install token back when you remove the game.

Deal breaker for me as well, so time to hit the backlog.

[LesJarvis]

I was curious about that myself, and by my reading of section 13.C of the subscriber's agreement, (http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=subscriber_agreement) they can revoke your access to any Steam game for any reason and without any compensation. I'm certainly no lawyer, though.

That concerns the user's agreement with Valve, though, not Valve's agreement with the publisher, which is what would dictate whether or not a game could be removed from the service and made inaccessible to users who have purchased it.

[Miramon]

Well, I'm installing it now. They get some points up front for a registration code card that's in a clean font that is large enough to read, with no questions about Bs vs 8s or 1s vs ls or 0s vs Os.

[thamer]

They already ban accounts regularly over stupid things. I think this clause is in there to ban cheaters -- people don't give Steam enough credit for being an anti-cheat mechanism -- despite this they have banned thousands of account over other things.

[Fugitive]

That concerns the user's agreement with Valve, though, not Valve's agreement with the publisher, which is what would dictate whether or not a game could be removed from the service and made inaccessible to users who have purchased it.
It's a necessary part of being able to take a game away from a user though, in that there's nothing there that obligates Valve to keep it available regardless of what happens with the publisher's agreements.

[Miramon]

Well, guess what. Installed the game. It didn't even bother to put a shortcut in the programs menu. Run the launcher, start the game, it instantly crashes without even a splash screen. Sweet.

[Greatatlantic]

Liar! Games with copy protection never crash; you're obviously a filthy, filthy, filthy pirate.

I figured out a work around some time ago. Apparently, having Vista's UAC active stops the game from running... for the first use. I haven't tried turning it back on and running the game again, but thats what the support forums say will happen. Considering how the copyright protection is suppose to only run the first time you play it, I'm pretty sure its related.

[Fugitive]

Well, guess what. Installed the game. It didn't even bother to put a shortcut in the programs menu. Run the launcher, start the game, it instantly crashes without even a splash screen. Sweet.
If this is on Vista, you can thank Microsoft for the first part, as the latest certification requirements say that games can only appear in the special Games section and not create any other shortcuts.

The latter part is just disheartening. Even if it's Vista's UAC interfering, it's still the kind of thing that shouldn't have escaped QA...

[Rob_Merritt]

And the game section is exclude during a search. Really annoying Microsoft.

[Kunikos]

Less talk, MORE CRATES!

Also, I think games need to be more brown and filled with token black men fulfilling awesome 1990's stereotypes in every century.

[beloved one]

It's a necessary part of being able to take a game away from a user though, in that there's nothing there that obligates Valve to keep it available regardless of what happens with the publisher's agreements.

Still, it's in Valve's best interests to keep it available. I could see them agreeing to an arrangement where the publisher could ask they not sell new copies. On the other hand, I can't imagine them agreeing to drop support for a purchased product, (disallowing it from being played or re-downloaded,) based upon the whim of the publisher. That would threaten their whole business model, which is based on years of trust being slowly accumulated.

It doesn't make a lot of sense for any publisher to stipulate either... suddenly denying paid customers their product (with Valve already footing any and all overhead costs), just seems like bad PR.

Technically, this might open a legal avenue for such a practice (maybe not, I'm no lawyer). Given that it hasn't occurred so far, and there does not seem to be any reason for it to occur in the future, concerns about it seem paranoid to me.

[Drastic]

Also, I think games need to be more brown and filled with token black men fulfilling awesome 1990's stereotypes in every century.
I can't stop designing crates without my buddy Superfly!

[Fugitive]

Still, it's in Valve's best interests to keep it available. I could see them agreeing to an arrangement where the publisher could ask they not sell new copies. On the other hand I can't imagine them agreeing to not let something purchased continue to be played, or re-downloaded, based upon the whim of the publisher. That would threaten their whole business model, which is based on years of trust being slowly accumulated.

It doesn't seem to make sense for any publisher to do either... suddenly denying paid customers their product (with Valve already footing any and all overhead costs), just seems like bad PR.
I suppose I could see a scenario where, due to some kind of legal ambiguity or lack of payment, some publisher agreement goes sour and is terminated and the publisher demands that the game be withdrawn and that the sales so far are not considered legitimate (and ideally can get a court to agree with that, though the threat of suing might be enough). In that case, Valve would have to remove the game from existing users, though they'd probably also have to issue refunds.

That's a worst-case scenario though, and yeah, in general Valve isn't going to sabotage its goodwill by jerking around its users or pissing off the publishers unnecessarily.

[schurem]

so yea, valve pretty much kicks ass, is awesome, keeps us from cheating, allows us europeans to easily pay uhmuhricun prices and all, but why isnt mass effect on steam then? and for that matter, why cant we euro's get the ubi stuff?

[LeSquide]

They already ban accounts regularly over stupid things. I think this clause is in there to ban cheaters -- people don't give Steam enough credit for being an anti-cheat mechanism -- despite this they have banned thousands of account over other things.

I'm getting a new computer soon and was planning in using Steam to get a bunch of stuff; what sort of stuff do people get banned over besides cheating?

[AndrewM]

I'm getting a new computer soon and was planning in using Steam to get a bunch of stuff; what sort of stuff do people get banned over besides cheating?

A poster on Blue's News claimed to have been banned because he swore when filing a complaint about a game not working, and then refusing to apologize.

[shift6]

Grey area? You think if you buy the game on one platform, you're somehow entitled to steal it for another platform? Grey area, my ass.
I know I'm late to the thread (been offline for awhile) but I wanted to chime in here. It is clear that owning a legitimate copy of software on one platform does not translate to ethically stealing copies on other platforms; definitely no grey area. But that may not translate so easily to other media.

If I own a stand-up arcade game (and I did own many) and one of the EPROMs burns out, am I or am I not within my rights to find a soft ROM of the game and play it on my PC? The game assets are no different from those on the EEPROM, so there was no "porting" by the developers involved. It was dumped to soft ROM presumably by someone else, and perhaps I run the game in an open-source emulator. Is that ethical?

It seems that what matters is largely the expectations of the consumer. If I buy a music CD, I reasonably expect to be able to play it in any of my CD players (whether they support DRM or not). If I buy a non-MMORPG video game, shouldn't I reasonably expect to be able to load it up at any time in the future and play? Am I not morally and legally entitled to copy my MP3 song bought from Microsoft music to whatever player I want? If my HTPC jukebox has a 5-disc RAID1 array, am I making illegal copies of something in violation of DRM? If I borrow a book from the library and photocopy it for my personal use after returning it, is that ethical?

A more complicated question: If I have purchased a "license to use" some old unsupported product like Windows 98SE and my CD breaks, is Microsoft (as the licensor) not morally obligated to provide for me a new legitimate copy that I may exercise my license to use again? Perhaps someone stole my collector's edition of Painkiller; am I no longer "licensed" to play the game, and is it OK to download a pirate version to do so? If I can't find the collector's edition on a pirate website, what if I download the basic game? Is it ethical for Valve to (hypothetically) discontinue downloads to customres who have bought full games because the publisher says no more? How about discontinued games in the XBL marketplace? Do publishers have the moral or ethical authority to somehow rescind my "license to use" once I have purchased such a license from them?

Note that in all of the above, I'm talking more about the morals and ethics of piracy, not the legal side.

Related article: court sez software is a product, not a service. First sale FTW.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080523-court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.html

[Crater]

Related article: court sez software is a product, not a service. First sale FTW.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080523-court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.html

I cheered when I read that article. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the ruling is good for consumers.

Either way, I still feel the Mass Effect DRM is too restrictive in it's current form. I'm not going to buy a game that limits the total number of installs. If it did something like Bioshock and allowed you to deauthorize machines by uninstalling the game, I would consider that acceptable.

As it stands, no matter how much I want to play MEPC, I'm not going to contribute to this type of DRM, especially since they haven't confirmed how it will be handled in the future. I just wish there was a way to tell the execs that they've lost a sale because of the DRM, and not because of the game itself. Those folks tend to see in numbers, and a lost sale isn't counted.

[Alan Au]

I just wish there was a way to tell the execs that they've lost a sale because of the DRM, and not because of the game itself. Those folks tend to see in numbers, and a lost sale isn't counted.This is part of the problem. The sad part is that, by not making a purchase, the execs might decide that the PC market isn't worth supporting.

I guess if you want to make a statement, buy extra copies of Stardock's games and make them successful, so that other companies want to emulate their practices. If PC game sales are strong as a whole, but companies that employ strict DRM see that their sales are lagging, they might take notice.

The first-sale thing might eventually come up if enough people run afoul of the installation limit, but I suspect it won't be a problem for a while, and with any luck the installation cap will be patched out by then.

As for me and my gaming dollars, I'll probably buy Mass Effect eventually, but it's now much lower in my queue. My guess is that I'll get it when I upgrade my PC. That is, it's still a sale for EA, but deferred and probably at a lower price point.

- Alan

[thamer]

If I own a stand-up arcade game (and I did own many) and one of the EPROMs burns out, am I or am I not within my rights to find a soft ROM of the game and play it on my PC? The game assets are no different from those on the EEPROM, so there was no "porting" by the developers involved. It was dumped to soft ROM presumably by someone else, and perhaps I run the game in an open-source emulator. Is that ethical?


straw man argument there.

This does not apply to downloading a PC copy because you paid for the 360 copy. Last I checked you're supposed to contact EA/Bioware and get a replacement.

Don't buy unsupported software -- although if the software is no longer supported it's likely no longer sold and you can join the Abandonware folk who are doing an incredible job of keeping collecting lots of old titles for people to revisit.

[thamer]

I'm getting a new computer soon and was planning in using Steam to get a bunch of stuff; what sort of stuff do people get banned over besides cheating?

I think Valve has a no bozo attitude to their community similar to Microsofts Xbox Live's draconian rules. The second you step slightly out of line from the crowd they'll swat you.

[John Sansker]

I have an idea.....

So, what I'm going to do, instead of spending $50 on Mass Effect for the PC, is to find a landscaper in the San Francisco area...

Yeah, see, ask them if they sell manure, and if so, do they/would they deliver it to a certain address?

Send EA $50 worth of shit instead of spending the money on their bullshit copy protection scheme.

Also, I'll ask if they'll attach a note.

Dear EA,

I'm tired of your bullshit copy protection.
Let's see how you like dealing with my bullshit.

A concerned PC gamer.

[Ranulf]

Dude, you are delusional if you think I give a fuck what you think.
Go design a crate for Unreal 4.
I'm done with this place.

Really amigo, head on down to yer local hospital and get the blood pressure checked. Its free right?

Hugs n' kisses,

A concerned American PC gamer.

See, we're not all heartless war/whore mongering software pirate bastards.

[André Costa]

Dude, you are delusional if you think I give a fuck what you think.
Go design a crate for Unreal 4.
I'm done with this place.

Do not forget to start a thread on indiegamer.com or whatever it is crying about it. Oh and quote something EpicBoy said out of context, that will help!

[beloved one]

I'm getting a new computer soon and was planning in using Steam to get a bunch of stuff; what sort of stuff do people get banned over besides cheating?

I'm pretty sure they ban adbots and people with pornographic in-game avatars. This is my hypothesis on the grounds that I don't see these types of people in game. (When in-game avatars first came about, I saw a lot of little goatse's and so on... Nowadays, I see none, therefore, they ban for it.)

It's also supported by their policies on the matter. http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=online_conduct

[notatiger]

I think Valve has a no bozo attitude to their community similar to Microsofts Xbox Live's draconian rules. The second you step slightly out of line from the crowd they'll swat you.

It kinda sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. What did you do to get banned?

[thamer]

I don't even have Steam. The DRM is not to my liking. I've just spoken to people who got banned over the most absurd thing.

[Crater]

This is part of the problem. The sad part is that, by not making a purchase, the execs might decide that the PC market isn't worth supporting.

Either that, or they decide that the DRM wasn't strong enough to stop people from pirating the game, which would also explain lower sales numbers. They then respond by adding more restrictive DRM, furthering the cycle.

[Kunikos]

I can't stop designing crates without my buddy Superfly!

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/7334/lolcatrx7.jpg

[steve]

Related article: court sez software is a product, not a service. First sale FTW.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080523-court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.html
If it's a product, does that mean piracy is no longer copyright infringement but theft?

[Kalle]

If it's a product, does that mean piracy is no longer copyright infringement but theft?

Are you implying that no product could possibly be copyrighted?

[thamer]

He's claiming you can take your physical game DVD and sell it to someone else.

[steve]

Are you implying that no product could possibly be copyrighted?
I'm pretty sure copyright law doesn't apply to physical products themselves, but to what's expressed on or within them.

From Wikipedia: "Copyright law covers the creative or artistic expression of an idea. Patent law covers inventions. Trademark law covers distinctive signs which are used in relation to products or services as indicators of origin, as does (in a similar fashion), Trade dress. Registered designs law covers the look or appearance of a manufactured or functional article. Trade secret law covers secret or sensitive knowledge or information."

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

If it's a product, does that mean piracy is no longer copyright infringement but theft?

Stealing a DVD with a game on it is theft, copying the contents of the DVD is copyright infringement. Same for books, movies etc.

[Alan Au]

The first-sale doctrine applies to copyrighted materials as well. That said, the whole EULA thing causes all sorts of confusion, since software manufacturers claim that they are simply selling licenses to use their software.

Also, by reading this message, you owe me a drink.

- Alan

[Roy Ziegler]

For those who wanted to time how fast it took to get cracked, nforce says there's one out there now.

So it took one day. Was the DRM worth it? Surely it costs some money to license the DRM. I wonder how much money was generated by the (few?) pirates who bought it out of frustration versus the cost to license the DRM.

[Charles]

For those who wanted to time how fast it took to get cracked, nforce says there's one out there now.

So it took one day. Was the DRM worth it? Surely it costs some money to license the DRM. I wonder how much money was generated by the (few?) pirates who bought it out of frustration versus the cost to license the DRM.

FWIW, just because there's a release doesn't mean it works. There's plenty of games that get "released" but don't actually work properly.

[idrisz]

For those who wanted to time how fast it took to get cracked, nforce says there's one out there now.

So it took one day. Was the DRM worth it? Surely it costs some money to license the DRM. I wonder how much money was generated by the (few?) pirates who bought it out of frustration versus the cost to license the DRM.


I don't know whether to feel sad or to cheer because I can play my copy without messing with the DRM.

[Roy Ziegler]

FWIW, just because there's a release doesn't mean it works. There's plenty of games that get "released" but don't actually work properly.

That's true. I guess you could check their forums in a while and see if people say it works or not.

[Sol Invictus]

First up, just know that I'm a pro-PC gamer due to its abundance of great first person shooters (I'm looking at TF2 and Call of Duty 4), strategy games (Sins, Stardock's upcoming fantasy game, Starcraft 2, Demigod), simulations (Spore, The Sims 3), and MMORPGs (Age of Conan, Champions Online) but the number of good games out is steadily diminishing, mainly due to fucking piracy.

I really don't know why so many gamers complain so much about the copy protection/DRM in games like Mass Effect, or to a more serious extent BioShock. The copy protection in ME is hardly anything to complain about -- you can play the game without the disc in the drive for Christ's sakes. BioShock's uninstallation and key reclamation procedure is a pain, but playing it really any more painful than inserting a disc into a 360 or PS3? Hardly.

Granted, the inability to install the game more than a few times is frustrating, but it's not as if there's any other solution to the issue. Not buying the game doesn't help its sales and just sends publishers the message that PC gaming is dying, which simply isn't true.

I also don't agree with the so-called 'ethics of piracy'. There's nothing ethical about stealing. It's straight up theft. If you can afford a gaming PC and some ungodly sized widescreen monitor, then you can most certainly afford a 40 dollar game. I'm pretty tired of all the excuses.

I wish people would just support the fucking industry if they love it so much.

[Roy Ziegler]

but the number of good games out is steadily diminishing, mainly due to fucking piracy.


I wish people would just support the fucking industry if they love it so much.

Not that I don't agree with what you're saying, but aren't you the guy who used to frequent the rpg codex and had a Warren Spector quote in your sig about something like the negative effects of piracy being bullshit?

How the times change.

I just googled the quote, and it's

"I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of shit"

edit: Yeah, you are. Googled the quote and your name and it came up with this:

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8127769&postcount=74

[Sol Invictus]

Who gives a shit? If you're from the RPG Codex, I have to say that you guys need to learn to let things go. As far as I know, people at the RPG Codex are still harping on about how Oblivion ruined RPGs and how MMORPGs are the bane of existence and everything. The place is trapped in a temporal stasis in which the hope of Troika Studios developing Fallout 3 still remains strong.

Oh yeah, and some people still seem to have a grudge against me over there. But really, why should I give a fuck? What's the point of bringing this shit up? This thread isn't about you or me or the fucking RPG Codex. It's about The DRM in Mass Effect. Stay on topic, usedpilot.

Oh yeah, regarding the quote, it still stands:


"I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of sh*t. Anyone who pirates your game wasn’t going to buy it anyway!" - Warren Spector

That pretty much sums it up. It's not like copy protection hinders pirates in any way. The costly protection is bypassed mere hours after a game's released, sometimes even prior to the release of the game. As it is, they serve only to hinder legitimate users from making legal backups of their purchased products. On top of that, certain copy protection such as StarForce intrudes on user privacy, tampers with Windows settings, and doesn't even work for legitimate customers who use Windows Vista. Beyond that, most security features affect performance by slowing down loading times and create additional conflicts with certain system configurations. Titan Quest and Dungeon Siege II are two particularly good examples of copy protection gone wrong.

CD keys are a lot more effective, especially if a game has an online multiplayer component.

My two cents.

Edit:

Some guy decided to quote this, so I'll clarify: I'll be damned if people use bad DRM as an excuse to commit piracy. Bad DRM, specifically StarForce retards the games that use it and have a strong potential to hurt sales more than they do at saving it, but what can you expect from a company that urged people to pirate Stardock's games?


I do think that when Warren Spector made that particular quote he was probably referring to horrific shit like StarForce and not the current, less game-fucking systems in use by BioShock and Mass Effect, so the quote doesn't really apply to games like those.

Yes, there's a lot of people who'd never buy a game regardless of whether they opt to pirate it or not, particularly if the game is crap. A lot of movie studios, like those asshats who made Gigli, blamed film piracy on the failure of that movie, always failing to mention the fact that the movie itself was garbage. Similar people exist in the gaming industry.

But there are are plenty of people who'd buy a game if they didn't have the option to pirate it. Like everyone in China who ever bought World of Warcraft, constituting over half of the game's online population - they would be a FANTASTIC example of this. Warcraft 3, as you may or may not know, was pirated to an oversaturated point in China, but it was due to this very fact that World of Warcraft was able to achieve its dominance in the country because every gamer knew exactly what Warcraft was when World of Warcraft was finally introduced into the Chinese market. They had no option to pirate the game as it was an online subscription-based game, so they bought it. The rest is history.