Mass Effect PC to have same pain in ass DRM as Bioshock.

[Jab]

The problem with DRM is exactly what we learned from BioShock, it's a minor deterent for pirates and a major hassle for the consumer. I could agree with people who support DRM if it actually prevented piracy not delayed it. Right now both Copy Protection and DRM are failures, and the industry really needs to come together and figure out a solution. I think StarDock has the right idea, but we do need something that can work on main stream titles. I'm still really pissed off that the game I waited about 5 years pulled this shit at the finish line.

[Kunikos]

Certainly no worse than the impossible to read red and purple code sheets EA and Maxis used in the early 90s.

Isn't this current scheme more like calling EA/Maxis on the phone and asking THEM to read the sheet they have in their lap to you? And when they decide not to support the game anymore they throw the sheet into the trash and when you call in the next 10 days they tell you "oh, I'm sorry I don't have that anymore" and YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GAME YOU PAID FOR.

Seriously Rob, I'm not sure why you are the Ultimate Defender of DRM here all of a sudden. Are you now on Sony DADC payroll?

[Kunikos]

What's wrong with AppleTV? It's pretty much the equivalent of the cable companies 'on demand' service except not shitty.

No. On Demand works any time you want it. AppleTV downloads are like the original Divx players. You buy the content and you can't use it after a pre-determined time limit set by Apple. Afterwards you are boned. Even fucking rental stores aren't that assholish these days; I mean I can use Netflix online streaming and watch any movie in their streaming catalog as many times as I want for a monthly fee. Amazon Unbox is more similar to AppleTV and their scheme at least doesn't START the timer until you first start watching it. Really the AppleTV system is arbitrarily setup so you have to pay more to watch the same content more than once, all I'm sure to make the MPAA and/or the licensors happy.

[WarrenM]

It was my understanding that AppleTV didn't start the timer until you started watching the movie, but I might be wrong and I'm certainly too lazy to google it.

[Mordrak]

he works for DRM providers, got to respect the man for protecting his job.

:)

No, not really.

[Alan Au]

I'm starting to think of this as some sort of a game tax, where the paying consumers subsidize the publisher to offset "losses" due to non-paying pirates.

- Alan

[Matt Perkins]

he works for DRM providers, got to respect the man for protecting his job.

:)
Ok, I hate to way in on the side of The Man™ here, but I did (http://www.whatwouldmattdo.com/2008/05/08/gamers-amuse-me/#more-274), and I do.

People are over reacting. They aren't looking at it from other side and they are getting all up in arms about something may or may not work for them.

I bought Bioshock on day one for the PC. I had no install problems. Everything worked fine. I'm not alone and I'm not even in the minority.

Yes, DRM sucks, when I have to deal with it. But if this process works and allows for more PC games to get made, I'm the fuck on board.


Here's how you can tell if it's a good thing for us (PC gamers) as a whole. One, does it work quietly and seamlessly for 98%+ of customers? Two, does the game stay of bit torrent sites for at least a couple of days if not a full week after release? Three, do most PC gamers have no idea they've been or will continue to be DRMed with Spore and ME?

If those three things all prove true, then it's a win. Not only for EA, but for us. If any of those three things prove false, as they most obviously could, then EA failed and they will feel the wrath of the internet games(!). The wrath of the internet gamers being like a gentle slap, of which EA will promptly ignore. Of course.

PC gaming has to do something. Steam is a good something, Stardock is trying a similar thing. This might be a good something, we'll just have to wait and see. What it won't be is the end of PC gaming as we know it. It won't be the end of the world if it all goes to shit and it won't kill any of us. But it might help further the decline of non casual/mmo games on the PC.

-Matt "Friend of The Man"

[salwon]

It was my understanding that AppleTV didn't start the timer until you started watching the movie, but I might be wrong and I'm certainly too lazy to google it.


No that's right...Sort of, I think. I think you have a month to start it, and then 24 hours once you start. Keep in mind though with the DivX comparisons: as pointed out by Penny Arcade, DivX let you watch the movie for longer than Apple does.

[malkav11]

Four: does it remain playable in ten years when the authentication servers are long gone?

That's my concern. And please don't tell me "this lets them avoid a disc-check. A disc-check is just one arbitrary copy-protection method out of dozens. They don't have to phone home every five days to avoid using it.

[Mordrak]

Three, do most PC gamers have no idea they've been or will continue to be DRMed with Spore and ME?


If customers are ignorant and only 2% have a problem, then that's a win for us the customers? So as they take away your rights as a consumer, as long as you're unaware, it's cool.

So I just need to steal from you without you knowing it for a few years, and then it's a win for you? Gotcha.

[Alan Au]

Now I'm curious; what's the tipping point? How intrusive would DRM have to be before it started negatively affecting profits, taking both piracy and upset customers into account.

- Alan

[mono]

Four: does it remain playable in ten years when the authentication servers are long gone?

That's my concern. And please don't tell me "this lets them avoid a disc-check. A disc-check is just one arbitrary copy-protection method out of dozens. They don't have to phone home every five days to avoid using it.

Pretty good odds that in 2018, if you actually still want to play some ancient fossil of a game such as Mass Effect, there'll be a crack to avoid needs for the auth servers. Good luck getting it to run on your Windows SkyNet Cloud Computing 2017 operating system.

[Lux]

Come on guys, how many of you WOULDN'T screw over your consumer base and set a dangerous precedent for 860 MILLION bucks? I'd like to say that I wouldn't, but I've never had to deal with that kind of money on a corperate or personal level.

This is what happens when a company that bases their success on superior products is acquired by one that garners success through market control. At least this should dispel the myth that John Riccitello's policies are any less morally bankrupt than previous CEOs.

[Mordrak]

Now I'm curious; what's the tipping point? How intrusive would DRM have to be before it started negatively affecting profits, taking both piracy and upset customers into account.

- Alan

It depends. Look at all those kids paying for shit in virtual worlds (with no right to it whatsoever). They just need to keep conceptually training people to give up value and no one will care but old fuddy duddies. Literally everyone but the companies will be poorer for it.


Pretty good odds that in 2018, if you actually still want to play some ancient fossil of a game such as Mass Effect, there'll be a crack to avoid needs for the auth servers. Good luck getting it to run on your Windows SkyNet Cloud Computing 2017 operating system.

That's another problem, forced obsolescence in entertainment. That's just bullshit and it's sad our government is complicit in it with crap like the switch to HD signals for no god damn reason other than to boost TV sales.

[Dan_Theman]

If customers are ignorant and only 2% have a problem, then that's a win for us the customers? So as they take away your rights as a consumer, as long as you're unaware, it's cool.

So I just need to steal from you without you knowing it for a few years, and then it's a win for you? Gotcha.
Matt - clipped from your linked blog:

Most legal PC gamers don’t know about DRM or what it means to their game experience. (http://www.whatwouldmattdo.com/2008/05/08/gamers-amuse-me/#more-274) Is that really true? I find it mind boggling, but that may just be due to the crowd I hang out with.

[Wallapuctus]

Pretty good odds that in 2018, if you actually still want to play some ancient fossil of a game such as Mass Effect, there'll be a crack to avoid needs for the auth servers. Good luck getting it to run on your Windows SkyNet Cloud Computing 2017 operating system.

As I mentioned earlier, Baldur's Gate, which was released in 1998, still works on my PC. It looks a little funky on a 1680x1050 widescreen LCD, but it works.

[Kunikos]

As I mentioned earlier, Baldur's Gate, which was released in 1998, still works on my PC. It looks a little funky on a 1680x1050 widescreen LCD, but it works.

Assuming you aren't running Vista, sure.

[Mordrak]

Assuming you aren't running Vista, sure.

Um, I played IWD2 in Vista, with no problems except the first dragon kicking my ass so hard I took a break.

[Kunikos]

Um, I played IWD2 in Vista, with no problems except the first dragon kicking my ass so hard I took a break.

I tried about 10 different troubleshooting methods before giving up on ever running Torment again.

[Mordrak]

I tried about 10 different troubleshooting methods before giving up on ever running Torment again.

I'll try installing Torment tonight and see what happens, but I was pleasantly surprised to see IWD2 work.

[Zylon]

Ok, I hate to way in on the side of The Man™ here
Weigh. Weigh in.

And now, to ring in page ten with a relevant quotation--

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

[Dan_Theman]

Um, I played IWD2 with no problems in Vista, other than getting my ass kicked by the first dragon so hard I took a break.
Yep, and BG runs perfectly fine on my 64-bit Vista Ultimate, but I think that despite him picking a bad example (because it does run), the point is still somewhat valid. Also, some people simply don't update their PC's very often. I recall passing down an old 400Mhz PC to a friend who was hard up at the time. MANY years later, I was talking about PC games and their son piped up ... complaining that my ancient PC wouldn't run Heroes of Might & Magic V. My eyes bugged out as I contemplated the fact that his son was playing on a decade-old machine.

[Kunikos]

Doesn't run on mine, so I dunno. I can't imagine I'm the only one to ever have problems since there are troubleshooting guides out there that have you jumping through hoops to try and get an old game working. It gets even worse if there is a server out there somewhere that gets upgraded and their auth system breaks because of it, and suddenly the chain reaction from that is that tons of people playing their Mass Effect now can't ever again (unless they apply pirate scene cracks which are illegal according to the DCMA).

[Mordrak]

Doesn't run on mine, so I dunno. I can't imagine I'm the only one to ever have problems since there are troubleshooting guides out there that have you jumping through hoops to try and get an old game working. It gets even worse if there is a server out there somewhere that gets upgraded and their auth system breaks because of it, and suddenly the chain reaction from that is that tons of people playing their Mass Effect now can't ever again (unless they apply pirate scene cracks which are illegal according to the DCMA).

Yeah. I agree.

[Matt Perkins]

If customers are ignorant and only 2% have a problem, then that's a win for us the customers? So as they take away your rights as a consumer, as long as you're unaware, it's cool.

So I just need to steal from you without you knowing it for a few years, and then it's a win for you? Gotcha.
No. You're missing my point. If less than 2% (though I said that I number, I really think it should be lower) of users run into problems AND the other points prove true (the rest of us never any sings of DRM at all and it isn't pirated within the first week), then it's win for the publisher. Theoretically. We still don't have reliable data proves that, but the theory goes that they will get more sales because of DRM.



Now I'm curious; what's the tipping point? How intrusive would DRM have to be before it started negatively affecting profits, taking both piracy and upset customers into account.

- Alan
That's a REALLY good question that I don't think anyone knows the answer to. For me, I would think it might be called a success if the three things I said come true. a) no visible drm b) stays out of bit torrent for a week c) less than 2% of customers have a problem (the more I say that number, the more I think it's really too high. Should be something like .5% or less I'm thinking now)



Matt - clipped from your linked blog:
Is that really true? I find it mind boggling, but that may just be due to the crowd I hang out with.
Think about it like this. How many people have any idea about video cards, know what version of directx they actually need or can run, understand really what a hard drive or ram is. Now think of how many people even know what the acronym DRM stands for...

We aren't your average game consumer, even in the PC market.

[Machfive]

b) stays out of bit torrent for a week

I could stoop low and be a total fucking asshole about this, grinding in just how blitheringly stupid a statement this is, but I'll start out a wee bit civil and state what should otherwise be retardedly obvious:

Bittorrented copies do not come from retail box versions of the game in all but the most rare of cases, and those which do hit the net within a day or two of the game's release, no matter what draconian DRM the publishers stick on there.

[Matt Perkins]

Weigh. Weigh in.

And now, to ring in page ten with a relevant quotation--

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
But the spell checker said it was fine! :p

As for the quote, yeah, I agree completely. Except, that's not reality. Look, even before W got into office and went all patriot act on us here in the US, we gave up some freedoms to be a part of this society. The trick is to find that spot that works for most and to not let the other people seep through the cracks, but handle the special cases with vigor and smarts. I wish that's how our government worked.

And that's all in theory anyway. This is EA. They are going to do whatever they can to smack us around. That doesn't mean the theory is wrong or that something doesn't have to be done.

[Matt Perkins]

I could stoop low and be a total fucking asshole about this, grinding in just how blitheringly stupid a statement this is, but I'll start out a wee bit civil and state what should otherwise be retardedly obvious:

Bittorrented copies do not come from retail box versions of the game in all but the most rare of cases, and those which do hit the net within a day or two of the game's release, no matter what draconian DRM the publishers stick on there.
You're absolutely right. I counter with Bioshock for the PC. It took it a full week after the release of the game for it to make it onto bit torrent sites, no? Maybe I'm remembering wrong...

I know how torrents are started, I know the process breaks down well before retail. The point is, they need to stop that. If they are doing DRM because this is a real problem and this is a real solution, then they need to make sure it stays out of peoples hands until retail...as much as possible anyway.

If this is just more cover to make it seem like they are doing something, then it's all for naught anyway. What do I know...I'm arguing on the side of EA of all companies. ;)

[Machfive]

You're absolutely right. I counter with Bioshock for the PC. It took it a full week after the release of the game for it to make it onto bit torrent sites, no? Maybe I'm remembering wrong...

I know how torrents are started, I know the process breaks down well before retail. The point is, they need to stop that. If they are doing DRM because this is a real problem and this is a real solution, then they need to make sure it stays out of peoples hands until retail...as much as possible anyway.

If this is just more cover to make it seem like they are doing something, then it's all for naught anyway. What do I know...I'm arguing on the side of EA of all companies. ;)

Truth be told, I don't know how long (if at all) it took Bioshock to hit torrent sites. But I'd truly be shocked if it was more than 2 days.

Posts here (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/15/so-sad-bioshock-sticks-with-original-release-date/) suggest it was already available on the 15th.

The only way they stop pre-release leaks is to figure out a way to penalize leaks from in between the release to manufacturing and the arrival in stores.

The movie industry actually had a good idea with the tracking dots they embedded on films going to different markets, although I have no idea if there were actually able to plug any leaks using that methodology.

If they could come up with a method to narrow the source of the leaks and then be able to slap infringers with huge fines, that might deter the people duping and distributing the software from leaking it to the pirates.

I'm not saying I know the answer to piracy, but I don't believe the answer should be anything which penalizes a single legit gamer.

[idrisz]

It did not take a week for the crack version of bioshock to be release. it was almost on the same date as the normal release date.



No. You're missing my point. If less than 2% (though I said that I number, I really think it should be lower) of users run into problems AND the other points prove true (the rest of us never any sings of DRM at all and it isn't pirated within the first week), then it's win for the publisher. Theoretically. We still don't have reliable data proves that, but the theory goes that they will get more sales because of DRM.

I can list more games that was available on the same date as release but it would just be pointless. I'm sure someone somewhere is getting paid to find out how effective the DRM is, except whoever that person is, he/she is a fucking retard.

[Kunikos]

The movie industry actually had a good idea with the tracking dots they embedded on films going to different markets, although I have no idea if there were actually able to plug any leaks using that methodology.

You can do it in software in some fashion but if it's found by pirates it can be removed as easily as any other DRM scheme short of driver-based Starforce.

[Adam B]

I can list more games that was available on the same date as release but it would just be pointless. I'm sure someone somewhere is getting paid to find out how effective the DRM is, except whoever that person is, he/she is a fucking retard.

Look, I'm no DRM defender, but assuming that someone is a "fucking retard" based on anecdotal evidence and a relative handful of nerds venting their Internet rage on message boards is a bit of a stretch there, Captain.

If somehow you knew that these decisions were being made by someone pulling opinions out of their ass (much like we're doing here, amusing as it is) and not based on all kinds of numbers that publishers have access to that we don't (and I would be very surprised if that is the case), sure, then they're a "fucking retard."

And no, I don't think that PITA DRM is the way forward.

[Kalle]

It did not take a week for the crack version of bioshock to be release. it was almost on the same date as the normal release date.

And you know this from experience, right?

[idrisz]

And you know this from experience, right?

Actually, Yes I do.

I have access to a few newsgroups, and most of time on release, it's IRC -> NewsGroup -> torrent.

If you implying I pirated Bioshock on PC, not really. I have it on 360.

[Kunikos]

If you implying I pirated Bioshock on PC, not really. I have it on 360.

"Not really" implies you have it on the PC too. ;) I kid.

Anyway, this whole mess is a bummer. I will wait until it gets removed from the game as Mr. French seems to think will happen eventually, and by then it will be in the bargain bin anyway and my system will be faster. :)

[Matt Perkins]

Actually, Yes I do.

I have access to a few newsgroups, and most of time on release, it's IRC -> NewsGroup -> torrent.

Well lets just stop this conversation right now...I mean, he has access to newsgroups and everything...

[Stroker Ace]

Treyarch's devs are on Internet2.

[Kunikos]

Treyarch's devs are on Internet2.

Internet2 is already obsolete and it's still vaporware.

Wait... what the hell does this have to do with anything?

[idrisz]

Treyarch's devs are on Internet2.

No, I'm actually posting by proxy, calling my friend using a land line and he then type it on for me.

He calls me back and tell me all the stuff on here.

Treyarch Developer team doesn't have any internet connection, it's to prevent PIRATES.

[Fugitive]

This thread came up on other forums too, of course, and I saw someone post a log of scene releases of Bioshock, and a lot of the early ones were retracted/'nuked' as still being glitched in some way, so it may have still been a while before there was a fully-working, cracked release.

[Stroker Ace]

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/images/_20050211news11_1.jpg

[Zylon]

You're absolutely right. I counter with Bioshock for the PC. It took it a full week after the release of the game for it to make it onto bit torrent sites, no?
Didn't it also take some legitimate owners almost a week to play it due to the overloaded DRM servers?

[Omniscia]

It was a day of futility for me before I turned to other measures to get my legitimate, store-bought collector's edition up and running.

[Lux]

Didn't it also take some legitimate owners almost a week to play it due to the overloaded DRM servers?

You are correct.

[malkav11]

It did not take a week for the crack version of bioshock to be release. it was almost on the same date as the normal release date.


We've been over this. Bioshock released pretty much same day. It didn't have a working crack in widespread release until ten days later. I know. I was checking, out of intellectual curiosity due to the raging debate over its DRM.

[malkav11]

Pretty good odds that in 2018, if you actually still want to play some ancient fossil of a game such as Mass Effect, there'll be a crack to avoid needs for the auth servers. Good luck getting it to run on your Windows SkyNet Cloud Computing 2017 operating system.

*shrugs* I might, I might not. If I do, I want it to be there. If I don't, there's still going to be someone else who does, and one of the things that kills me about this industry is that many people assume that games are a disposable product that becomes automatically obsolete within a couple of years. It needn't be so.

Yes, it'll probably be a pain in the ass to get working, but that's part of doing old games. It doesn't help when games deliberately and unnecessarily make it harder.

And there will probably be a crack inside a few days, but that's beside the point. One shouldn't ever have to crack one's legitimately purchased software to run it.

[Matt Perkins]

Didn't it also take some legitimate owners almost a week to play it due to the overloaded DRM servers?
No, not for everyone (not for me at least...worked fine). I don't know what the stats were... I do know on this board and others lots of people had problems. Do I know if anyone learned anything from that? No idea...hopefully...but we are talking big companies here.


We've been over this. Bioshock released pretty much same day. It didn't have a working crack in widespread release until ten days later. I know. I was checking, out of intellectual curiosity due to the raging debate over its DRM.
Right..."intellectual curiosity". :p

Either way though, 10 day is pretty impressive for any modern day release...

[Damien Neil]

That's a REALLY good question that I don't think anyone knows the answer to. For me, I would think it might be called a success if the three things I said come true. a) no visible drm b) stays out of bit torrent for a week c) less than 2% of customers have a problem (the more I say that number, the more I think it's really too high. Should be something like .5% or less I'm thinking now)

If 0.5% of your customers run into problems and you sell a million copies, then you just ripped off 50,000 people. But, hey, who cares? They're just customers.


Right..."intellectual curiosity". :p

I do love the defenders of DRM who simply can't conceive of the possibility that anyone who disagrees with them can be anything other than a thief.

[Dhruin]

Er, 5000.

[malkav11]

Right..."intellectual curiosity". :p

Either way though, 10 day is pretty impressive for any modern day release...

I bought Bioshock on Steam about three days after it came out (I'd waited that long only because I had to come up with the money.). So, yes. Intellectual curiosity.

[idrisz]

I bought Bioshock on Steam about three days after it came out (I'd waited that long only because I had to come up with the money.). So, yes. Intellectual curiosity.

I like how the scene group keeps up with the bioshock update with new crack. In a way they are very responsible!

[DoomMunky]

I had no problems with Bioshock, day 2. Installed and played perfectly. Off of Steam...

Hint. Hint.

And for hell's sake, are people still whining about this? How many people REALLY had problems with the damn game? This kind of internet hysteria bullshit is blown WAY out of proportion.

Hell, mine worked. If yours didn't it's because of something YOU fucked up.

[Zylon]

I had no problems with Bioshock, day 2. Installed and played perfectly. Off of Steam...

Hint. Hint.
The Steam version of Bioshock had exactly the same DRM measures in place as the DVD version.

[Damien Neil]

Er, 5000.

Oops. Typed one too many '0's into bc.

And, hey, 5,000 angry customers isn't bad, is it?

[Rob_Merritt]

How many people REALLY had problems with the damn game?

I know that Dan from PC gamer had issues but he had it before the general release.

[Draikin]

My ISP fucked up today, 14 hours without internet. What did I do ? I finally started a new game of the Witcher, something I wouldn't be able to do with this copy protection.

[Kunikos]

Oops. Typed one too many '0's into bc.

And, hey, 5,000 angry customers isn't bad, is it?

Ew, you're a dirty unix person.

[Rob_Merritt]

Well lets just stop this conversation right now...I mean, he has access to newsgroups and everything...

http://wildcat-watch.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/dramatic_chipmunk.gif

[intruder]

Actually, Yes I do.

I have access to a few newsgroups, and most of time on release, it's IRC -> NewsGroup -> torrent.

If you implying I pirated Bioshock on PC, not really. I have it on 360.

It goes:

1. Uploaded disc image from "supplier" to a group ftp site (either press copy, copy of cd plant or store bought version)
2. Downloaded image from group ftp site by cracker
3. Uploaded crack to group ftp site by cracker
4. Packaging release by courier and spreading it to top sites
-> " Scene Released"
5. Further spreading of release to ftp sites lower down the food chain
6. Someone posts it on newsgroups / P2P / uploads it to public ftps + gives info on IRC.
7. Downloaded by cool people like you who brag on forums

It doesn't matter if you download it via newsgroups, IRC or torrent. As long as you don't have access to ftps you have to wait as long as the next John Doe to get it.

If it's only a clone release without crack you can skip step 2 and 3.

Get your facts right.

Best would be to take out the cracker or supplier since once the image + crack is in the open it's too late.

This was in a "PC Gamer" few years ago so don't blame me being a pirate thank you.

[Matt Perkins]

If 0.5% of your customers run into problems and you sell a million copies, then you just ripped off 50,000 people. But, hey, who cares? They're just customers.

Someone else corrected your math, so I won't bother with that... You do know that EVERY SINGLE RELEASE of a game has problems, right? Again, I'm not saying I want anyone to have problems, nor that those that do have problems shouldn't be taken care of (don't even get me started on customer service).

The whole point of this conversation is that something has to be done, or there won't be PC games for us to play anymore. Whether pirates are really killing the industry or not, the perception to the business guys is that they are.



I do love the defenders of DRM who simply can't conceive of the possibility that anyone who disagrees with them can be anything other than a thief.
I am anything but a DRM defender. I don't like it. I'm also trying to be realistic here. Look at the PC gaming platform. It's not dead by any means, but the kind of games I like on it? They are becoming less and less. If developers can add seamless DRM that don't affect 99% of legitimate customers, but can keep the game off the scene for a bit, I think that's as close to a win as we're going to get these days.

Personally, I wish everyone could do what Brad Wardell does with his games...but it just isn't feasible for every type of game out there.

[Zylon]

The whole point of this conversation is that something has to be done, or there won't be PC games for us to play anymore.
Specifically, something USEFUL has to be done.

Annoying phone-home copy protection schemes and limited installs fall squarely under "not useful". But hey, they make the bean counters feel all warm and fuzzy because they're doing something (even though it's useless and pisses off their paying customers).

[HCode]

Specifically, something USEFUL has to be done.

Annoying phone-home copy protection schemes and limited installs fall squarely under "not useful". But hey, they make the bean counters feel all warm and fuzzy because they're doing something (even though it's useless and pisses off their paying customers).

So you are not playing any MMO at all, as they all have to phone home?

I would guess you simply have to redefine the game type for yourself to lose your hostility towards DRM checks. When the publisher defines its game as an "internet required" experience only, then you can not really complain (or do you complain about console games that require a disc?). When the publisher decides to use an online-authentication system (on every game start) then the number of installs does not have to be limited either.

[Drastic]

They for damn sure had better build at least four times the capacity they think they'll "really" need for authentication servers on Spore's launch day. Bioshock's launch day had entirely too many issues with authentication shitting its shirt.

Make it work transparently even if more people buy the game than bought GTA4 or WoW over its lifetime, and it won't be a big deal. There will be epic nerdrage storm if authentication hiccups because of high traffic, though.

[Fozzle]

I picked up Bioshock on D2D... did they use a different OK method, or did I just get lucky? I don't seem to remember any kind of trouble with my reg...Maybe I just got really lucky, because it sounds like I'm in the minority here =)

[malkav11]

I picked up Bioshock on D2D... did they use a different OK method, or did I just get lucky? I don't seem to remember any kind of trouble with my reg...Maybe I just got really lucky, because it sounds like I'm in the minority here =)

I don't know, but I didn't have any issues with Bioshock's DRM (and yes, it was present on the Steam version). I've very rarely had DRM actually directly affect my play experience. But that's never been the point for me.

[Damien Neil]

The whole point of this conversation is that something has to be done, or there won't be PC games for us to play anymore. Whether pirates are really killing the industry or not, the perception to the business guys is that they are.

And the perception to me is that game publishers are treating me like a thief, even though I haven't had a pirated game in my possession since I was twelve years old and stupid.

The perception to me is that I'm extremely grateful to the pirates, because I wouldn't have been able to play Overlord without them. The game refused to run until I downloaded a crack.

The perception to me is that I've skipped games because the copy protection pissed me off.

The perception to me is that no publisher has an entitlement to my money. If they want to lard up their games with copy protection that insults me, reduces the value of my purchase, and leaves the pirates with a better gaming experience than I get, they can kindly not whine when I don't buy their game.

Something has to be done? Here's something: Don't release games that have system requirements that prevent 90% of your potential audience from running the thing. Several of my friends bought Civ IV pretty much the day it came out. Every one of them gave up on trying to get it to run on their systems. Two of them no longer play PC games; one of them plays only WoW on the PC.

Here's something: Provide post-release support for your games, the way Stardock and Blizzard do. If the games industry is being killed, they don't seem to have noticed it.

Is piracy a problem? Yes, absolutely. But I'm sick and tired of it being used as a justification for insulting and intrusive copy protection that appears to provide no more than a speed bump for the pirates, and any publisher who wants to bitch about losing me as a customer can go jump off a cliff.

You may now engage in the traditional accusation that I am a damned dirty pirate.

[Matt Perkins]

Specifically, something USEFUL has to be done.

Annoying phone-home copy protection schemes and limited installs fall squarely under "not useful". But hey, they make the bean counters feel all warm and fuzzy because they're doing something (even though it's useless and pisses off their paying customers).
I'm in complete agreement with the first statement.

The question is, if not what EA is doing, what then?

[Alan Au]

This is a war of perceptions. EA adds DRM to (ineffectively) fight the (exaggerated) problem of piracy. Consumers get pissed off because the DRM is (actually) intrusive and game-breaking (but really only for a few individuals).

- Alan

[DoomMunky]

This is a war of perceptions. EA adds DRM to (ineffectively) fight the (exaggerated) problem of piracy. A very few righteously indignated consumers get hysterical because the DRM is (actually) intrusive and game-breaking (but really only for a few individuals).

- Alan
Fixed that for you.

DRM is here to stay, and will slowly get better as the kinks get worked out of the system. When was the first phone-home check? Half-Life 2? Like three, four years ago? We have a ways to go before it's perfect.

It's annoying when it doesn't work perfectly, sure, but what new technology ever does?

[idrisz]

Fixed that for you.

DRM is here to stay, and will slowly get better as the kinks get worked out of the system. When was the first phone-home check? Half-Life 2? Like three, four years ago? We have a ways to go before it's perfect.

It's annoying when it doesn't work perfectly, sure, but what new technology ever does?

the only reply I have is that piracy is also here to stay. There are times I'm grateful towards them.

[Jab]

I'm in complete agreement with Damien, and why I continue to support StarDock. I think one of the problems with the industry is that for the most part developers don't build good will between them and their customers. Exception of course with StarDock and with some indie developers, their CEO is outright with his impressions and is an active member here.

It's getting to the point in my opinion that just making a game is not enough in the industry today, the market is diverse enough that if you screw your customers, they will find another game to play. My issue with CP and DRM is that it does not stop piracy, it delays it. If developers could promise me in lets say 3 weeks after the initial launch that all forms of CP would be removed from the game then I would be happy. Instead CP stays on for the majority of the game's life span while pirates get an easier experience with the game for basically screwing the developers out of money. What do the paying customers get for supporting a company? We get a slap to the face of copy protection while pirates don't.

[Fozzle]

You may now engage in the traditional accusation that I am a damned dirty pirate.

"Take your stinking paws off me you damn dirty pirate."

[Zylon]

I would guess you simply have to redefine the game type for yourself to lose your hostility towards DRM checks.
Have you been reading 1984 again?

[malkav11]

Fixed that for you.

DRM is here to stay, and will slowly get better as the kinks get worked out of the system. When was the first phone-home check? Half-Life 2? Like three, four years ago? We have a ways to go before it's perfect.

It's annoying when it doesn't work perfectly, sure, but what new technology ever does?

Anti-piracy measures have been around for over two decades. In that time, they've evolved, sure. But aside from that brief, halcyon time when CDs were first introduced and it wasn't really feasible to copy them entire, I don't know that I'd ever characterize them as having gotten better. Merely different. And equally ineffectual.

The thing is, they have a moving target that they're trying to hit, because every time they come up with something new, the pirates figure out how to bypass it. They don't have a situation where they've got a product that does what it needs to and now they can iterate until the kinks are worked out. So the kinks never *are* worked out in any meaningful sense.

[DoomMunky]

Won't we all just eventually subscribe to daily 'updates' that unlock or allow play? Or just stream content to our rigs from central, locked locations?

[JZigish]

http://kotaku.com/5008452/bioware-backs-down-from-draconian-mass-effect-authentication

Mass Effect will no longer require 10 day checkups. It will check once on first run, and once every time you download new content. Basically exactly the same as the Steam system, and I am satisfied.

The 3-install requirement is still there, but that they claim to be happy to increase it on a case-by-case basis.

To whoever said that the 10-day requirement was reasonable and we were all just whining, apparently our whining accomplished something. It's our responsibility as game consumers to resist anti-consumer stuff as much as we can.

[JZigish]

Oh, and to Derek, BioWare has done a great job of responding to user feedback here. I suspect you may have had something to do with this internally, so thanks :)

[Tom Ohle]

Yeah, my view on this is that piracy will happen no matter how crazy your copy protection is, so make it as easy as possible for non-pirates to buy your game. You think a lot of pirates are going to look at some futuristic mega-protection and say "oh man, that's a lot of steps to get it working" and just stop pirating games?

To me, regular online authentication should be a pretty reasonable setup given the fact that it's pretty rare to find someone who doesn't have internet access... but people get pissed about that, too (with reasons I understand). I think the best idea is just to put that basic protection in place so that Jimmy can't pop the DVD in the drive, hit "copy" and give it to his ten closest friends with the click of a button, but no more than that.

[NowhereDan]

I know that Dan from PC gamer had issues but he had it before the general release.

The problem I had was with a boxed copy. I had installed it on two machines in the office to do side-by-side DX9/DX10 comparisons, then uninstalled it on both, and when I got home I was unable to play because of the two install limit. I had to take a picture of the disc and the manual and send that in, and it took them about 36 hours to unlock my install code - though I think that had to do with the fact that they upped the limit to 5 for everybody.

[Matt Perkins]

Glad to see they cut out the 10 day check. I hope EA does the same for Spore.

The same rules apply for this being a successful attempt at DRM or not.

[IndieInIndy]

Mass Effect will no longer require 10 day checkups.

Okay, so they backed off of the exploding neck collars. Huzzah.

However, one thing I'd still like to know: Is it possible to install this on a system without a network connection (e.g., telephone call to get a super secret magic number to type into my computer)?

Pardon me for being an antiquated luddite who plays games on one system, and haunts the intertron on another (thus not infecting the gaming rig with antiviral crud that's arguably worse than what it prevents).

[Matt Perkins]

Looks like Spore changed it up too (http://kotaku.com/5008454/spore-to-use-online-authentication). Very cool.

[Lee Johnson]

The 3-install requirement is still there, but that they claim to be happy to increase it on a case-by-case basis.Sorry if missed this, but will you be able to uninstall and get those installs back?

[TheTrunkDr]

Sorry if missed this, but will you be able to uninstall and get those installs back?
Don't think so.

[Alan Au]

I'm happy that they backed down on the 10-day re-activation requirement, but the 3 installations is still kind of unnerving. That is, I have 2 machines on which I want to install it, one of which I'm planning to upgrade shortly. While 3 installations is technically plenty for that purpose, it doesn't leave any margin for error.

- Alan

[Kareem]

The 10 days recheck was less of an issue for me than the 3 install limit. Is there any way I can get back the installation token if I uninstall the game? Because otherwise it just means I bought a DVD that's good for 3 uninstalls before becoming a coaster.

[Midnight Son]

You're all very welcome. Next job: Get rid of phoning home at all and no token system. You know, HOW IT USED TO BE.

[Equisilus]

They've said several times in answer to the question about "installation tokens" that it's tied to the computer it's activated from, not the number of installations. So, you can reinstall to your heart's content from a single computer. If the activation is done from a new computer, or one that is significantly different than the original activation, then it'll use up another activation. And, if there's ever a problem, you are able to call EA and work with them to get a solution to it.

[Midnight Son]

I won't play that stupid game of activation/tokens/bendoverforus. It's just not worth the hassle.

[Ranulf]

What about installing it for different users on the same machine? Didn't bioshock have problems with that?

Oh, how the mighty Bioware has fallen. Oh well, I still haven't caved in and bought Bioshock, guess I'll wait and see how Mass Effect turns out. Maybe I'll have bought a 360 system by then and just rent the damn game.

[Jab]

Looks like Spore changed it up too (http://kotaku.com/5008454/spore-to-use-online-authentication). Very cool.

One thing that bothers me, from my understanding of how Spore is going to do content downloads from previews, that they are downloaded while your playing, wouldn't that mean that the check would occur alot more then with Mass Effect?

[Fugitive]

One thing that bothers me, from my understanding of how Spore is going to do content downloads from previews, that they are downloaded while your playing, wouldn't that mean that the check would occur alot more then with Mass Effect?
It's not so bad in that case though since, well, you're already connected to their servers at that point. If the servers are gone, then you won't be downloading anything anyway.

[Taranis]

Great news, the 10 day re-activation system was a deal breaker for me I'm glad to see they dropped it. I don't mind having to validate for installs and updates, but I would like to see the install limit raised or eliminated, either way I now can be excited over Spore and Mass Effect again....YEAH!

[Lee Johnson]

They've said several times in answer to the question about "installation tokens" that it's tied to the computer it's activated from, not the number of installations. So, you can reinstall to your heart's content from a single computer. If the activation is done from a new computer, or one that is significantly different than the original activation, then it'll use up another activation. And, if there's ever a problem, you are able to call EA and work with them to get a solution to it.Well, that's still useless crap, because my hardware doesn't stay the same forever. Most of these schemes are so fragile, they invalidate installations the moment I so much as repartition one of my hard disks. (Norton and PopCap are especially shaky in this regard.) If I could uninstall and get the token back, I would be satisfied. Since I apparently can't, MEPC is staying on the store shelf.

[malkav11]

Hmm. Well, I still don't like the max activation business, or the "oh, if ever you need more you can just ask us" philosophy. Excuse me if my experience losing my WoW account to a hacker and having their people flatly deny me any recourse makes me just a little leery over that sort of promise. (I can understand where Blizzard was coming from - it's tough to prove that sort of thing. But why should I believe the people handling SecuROM activations will be any more willing to give me the benefit of the doubt?) And I plan on upgrading my hardware fairly regularly.

On the other hand, it's more or less what Bioshock had and I bought that. So we'll see.

[ZekeDMS]

It's wonderful to see the phoning home is gone, but I still would consider install tokens some bullshit.

I have a history of "It's fucked" with various installations of windows. I don't get to uninstall and get tokens back, I just reinstall windows, and then all my programs. I find it incredibly irritating to have to call someone to explain that every time, even in the nicest of situations like PopCap(I ran out of BWA installs twice since it's come out).

I'm still being pushed toward unauthorized code for a game I own but am being told I can't play.

[Aszurom]

In reference to "the suits see piracy as killing their profits", I have to wonder what they think of Gamestop and their resale business model? I'd think that wildly exceeds loss of profit due to piracy on consoles. If they don't sell it in the first two weeks, they never sell a new one again unless the customer at Gamestop purposefully thumbs their nose at that 10% + $5 discount they get for buying a "gently used" two week old "beat and traded in" recycle.

[Dhruin]

@ZekeDMS, Yeah, but it doesn't apply to your example because the hardware is the same, so you can reinstall to your heart's delight.

[André Costa]

What about installing it for different users on the same machine? Didn't bioshock have problems with that?

Oh, how the mighty Bioware has fallen. Oh well, I still haven't caved in and bought Bioshock, guess I'll wait and see how Mass Effect turns out. Maybe I'll have bought a 360 system by then and just rent the damn game.

I'd guess that this has less to do with Bioware and more with EA, but obviously Bioware is(will be?) the one taking the "blame".

[Mordrak]

Yay! A small victory, but one none the less. I guess I can live with install tokens for now. Hopefully they'll eventually revoke that. It's a pipe dream, I know.

[Equisilus]

What about installing it for different users on the same machine? Didn't bioshock have problems with that?

You can install it for every user on the machine. As long as the machine is the same, it doesn't matter (they answered this one, too).

I happen to agree about the install token system being less than satisfactory as a method of DRM, but I didn't have any issue with BioShock in that regard and that's about the worst it's gotten so far. I guess this'll be a test to how well it performs. The activation issue was the worst part of the plan, for me, and with that gone I can safely say I'll go ahead and pick up MEPC with only mild trepidation over how well it'll work.

[Sarkus]

In reference to "the suits see piracy as killing their profits", I have to wonder what they think of Gamestop and their resale business model? I'd think that wildly exceeds loss of profit due to piracy on consoles. If they don't sell it in the first two weeks, they never sell a new one again unless the customer at Gamestop purposefully thumbs their nose at that 10% + $5 discount they get for buying a "gently used" two week old "beat and traded in" recycle.

They don't like it but have grudgingly accepted it, at least for now. Ever wonder why other retailers aren't jumping on that bandwagon, when it's so profitable? Then notice that sometimes those other retailers get special deals? It's all part of the game. It's also why publishers are attracted to digital delivery options.

[John Sansker]

A lot of people talk, but not a lot of people walk.

Put me down as walking the walk.



Mass Defect=No Sale
The DRM bullshit I'm hearing about on the most recent PC Gamer podcast,
yeah, not going to buy either game.

[ZekeDMS]

@ZekeDMS, Yeah, but it doesn't apply to your example because the hardware is the same, so you can reinstall to your heart's delight.


I've changed my hardware quite a few times in 18 months. Two video cards, a new mobo, a new processor, new RAM, total hard drive removals and additions.

The MOBO and RAM were at the same time. Everything else has come at a separate time, as I rarely have the money to just update all at once.

[Kareem]

I happen to agree about the install token system being less than satisfactory as a method of DRM, but I didn't have any issue with BioShock in that regard and that's about the worst it's gotten so far. I guess this'll be a test to how well it performs. The activation issue was the worst part of the plan, for me, and with that gone I can safely say I'll go ahead and pick up MEPC with only mild trepidation over how well it'll work.

No, I didn't have a problem with the Bioshock system either, but that's because it was less draconian. In Bioshock, if you uninstalled the game you got your install token back, so you could install it on an infinite number of machines as long as you uninstalled it on your previous setup.

Mass Effect's system simply means the game is mine until I install it 3 times on 3 different setups and that's it. They're punishing me as a consumer for upgrading my PC. Fuck that. No sale.

[Equisilus]

Yeah, I see what you're saying Kareem, and good on you if you use your wallet to protest it. I'm not going to go so far (although I might have if the 10-day activation thing stayed in), but that doesn't mean I won't in the future. I'll have to evaluate as it comes.

[Midnight Son]

I don't see why we should have to put up with any of that bullshit.

[Vesper]

Thanks for listening to us, Bioware/EA. The number of activations limit isn't ideal, but the situation is much better than it was before. I went ahead and pre-ordered ME. ($10 off if you preorder on Amazon, btw).

[Taranis]

Mass Effect's system simply means the game is mine until I install it 3 times on 3 different setups and that's it. They're punishing me as a consumer for upgrading my PC. Fuck that. No sale.
Wait a minute I missed this part, You don't gain an install back from unistalling on different hardware?

If so, then I'm back to NO SALE!

[stusser]

Yep, the token system is unacceptable without uninstalls.

Edit: Don't post angry!

[Rock8man]

Yep, the token system is unacceptable without uninstalls.

I've heard they have a similar system for Sims 2, and that uninstalling Sims 2 gives you your token back, so you can install it on any 3 machines simultaneously, as long as you uninstall it from any previous machines you had it on.

So maybe Mass Effect and Spore will work the same way, since that's already how they do it for EA games?

[Cal]

Yep, the token system is unacceptable without uninstalls. I already bought it on the 360, so I'll just pick up the torrent. Fuck 'em.

Normally this would piss me off. Sadly your right, its a sad state of affairs when it is easier and less hassle to just download a torrent.

On one hand you can pirate it, and once installed thats it, no hassles, no drm, no 10 days checks.

One the other hand you pay £40 and have to keep a note of how often you re-installed it, remember how long till the next time you have to connect to authenticate, and pray to god your PC doesnt die and need a format/reinstall after a graphics card. Then if your luck is out, no doubt you end up on a phone call to some call center in India trying having to explain your not a fucking pirate, just that you like to upgrade your PC and format often.

The move to 360 gaming was the best thing i did, all my PC gets used for now is the odd MMOG and a few stardock games. Saved me a fortune in upgrades thislast year too!

[thamer]

I don't understand what's wrong with the Stardock approach? You get a serial which entitles you to support. Most software companies that sell for the desktop use this approach to keep their customers honest. There's a compelling reason NOT to download the torrent in this case.

[Ranulf]

I'd guess that this has less to do with Bioware and more with EA, but obviously Bioware is(will be?) the one taking the "blame".

Well duh and I'm not surprised this is happening since they sold to EA. Bioware chose to associate with EA, they're gonna get the blame equally in my mind.

[Zylon]

I don't understand what's wrong with the Stardock approach?
It doesn't offer the mid-level PHBs a sufficient degree of CYA. When some big game comes out and sells horribly, the people responsible want to be able to demonstrate to their bosses that they did everything possible to prevent it from being pirated.

[Tom Chick]

Yep, the token system is unacceptable without uninstalls. I already bought it on the 360, so I'll just pick up the torrent. Fuck 'em.

So buying the 360 version of a game entitles you to steal versions for other platforms if you don't like the copy protection scheme?

-Tom

[thamer]

It doesn't offer the mid-level PHBs a sufficient degree of CYA. When some big game comes out and sells horribly, the people responsible want to be able to demonstrate to their bosses that they did everything possible to prevent it from being pirated.

I honestly doubt a mid-level PHB could champion such a mechanism. The higher level execs have been in the business long enough to know this type of protection scheme is just an annoyance.

Didn't Oblivion ship with no copy protection? I forgot but I do recall playing with no DVD.

[Kareem]

That's not an indicator though. Recall Company of Heroes shipping with absolutely no copy protection (did it even have a serial key check?) and replacing that with a terrible copy protection scheme with the release of Opposing Fronts.

[TurinTur]

Normally this would piss me off. Sadly your right, its a sad state of affairs when it is easier and less hassle to just download a torrent.

On one hand you can pirate it, and once installed thats it, no hassles, no drm, no 10 days checks.

One the other hand you pay £40 and have to keep a note of how often you re-installed it, remember how long till the next time you have to connect to authenticate, and pray to god your PC doesnt die and need a format/reinstall after a graphics card. Then if your luck is out, no doubt you end up on a phone call to some call center in India trying having to explain your not a fucking pirate, just that you like to upgrade your PC and format often.

The move to 360 gaming was the best thing i did, all my PC gets used for now is the odd MMOG and a few stardock games. Saved me a fortune in upgrades thislast year too!

Uh... when did they say that you can only install three times? I think it's obvious it will work like Bioshock, when you uninstall the game they will return your "token".

And i think lots of people didn't understand this copy protection. You don't have to connect every 10 days to validate the game, that would be totally stupid, even for EA!. You run the game whenever you want. Then the game check the last time it validated, if the last time was 9 days, it doesn't do anaything, if it is 10 days or more, it checks the serial key against a master server. That's it.

And also, you have a third option apart from buy it/pirate it, you can buy the game, and then put the crack. I always do it, to evade the dvd check.

[Kareem]

Uh... when did they say that you can only install three times? I think it's obvious it will work like Bioshock, when you uninstall the game they will return your "token".

They said you don't get back install tokens if you uninstall and reinstall on a new machine. They said that several times, and it was reiterated in this very thread multiple times. Whether you "think" that is the case or not is irrelevant. What matters is what EA and Bioware said will be the case.


You don't have to connect every 10 days to validate the game, that would be totally stupid, even for EA!.

Well that was their plan before they succumbed to Internet rage.


You run the game whenever you want. Then the game check the last time it validated, if the last time was 9 days, it doesn't do anaything, if it is 10 days or more, it checks the serial key against a master server. That's it.

Uh. Yeah. So before their latest change you would have to connect every 10 days to validate the game. You just proved the point you were denying. Do you have any idea what's going on?

[ZekeDMS]

So buying the 360 version of a game entitles you to steal versions for other platforms if you don't like the copy protection scheme?

-Tom


I admit that's always a bit of a grey area for me. If the game's content is significantly different it's one thing, but if I bought it previously, and the only difference is basically a control scheme(or just some serious bug fixing), I don't know.

But I think it'd be awesome if I could just pay 10, or even 20 more dollars to get a cross-platform license, so I'm not one to ask on this.

[Kareem]

Actually the content is slightly different. The DLC you have to pay for in the 360 version is available free with the PC version. Also, the UI is changed.

[ZekeDMS]

I already bought that DLC! I'm not sure I should have to pay 50 dollars for a non-fucked UI, come to think of it. That should just be standard. But this seems like a derail and should have its own thread.

[Tom Chick]

I admit that's always a bit of a grey area for me.

Grey area? You think if you buy the game on one platform, you're somehow entitled to steal it for another platform? Grey area, my ass. It's a bullshit rationalization for the fact that you're a thief. Little niceties about the color of your ethical dilemma aren't worth the bandwidth you and stusser use to spout them. And it's particularly odious when you guys are spouting them on a forum where members of Bioware are posting. So you can fuck right off with your "grey areas".

Is that black and white enough for you?

-Tom

[Sol Invictus]

Grey area? You think if you buy the game on one platform, you're somehow entitled to steal it for another platform? Grey area, my ass. It's a bullshit rationalization for the fact that you're a thief. Little niceties about the color of your ethical dilemma aren't worth the bandwidth you and stusser use to spout them. And it's particularly odious when you guys are spouting them on a forum where members of Bioware are posting. So you can fuck right off with your "grey areas".

Is that black and white enough for you?

-Tom

Stealing is never right, and what's worse is that some people compound their already heinous act of stealing by trying to justify it to the people they stole from, claiming that they have some right to steal Mass Effect just because they've already paid for a previous version of the game on a different platform.

These people don't seem to take into consideration the trouble that Bioware is going through to port the game to the PC and they don't realize, or don't even care that their actions hurt the PC gaming industry and convince more and more developers and publishers to stop porting, much less developing games for this amazing gaming platform.

Needless to say, it pisses me off as both a member of the gaming industry and as a hardcore PC gamer to read these kinds of rationalizations being made by other supposedly hardcore PC gamers who are also members of a gaming industry forum, right to the faces of the game developers themselves. Have they no shame?

Their unacceptable actions hurt both the gaming platform and the developers who make games on it.

[beloved one]

I think it is an in-between area.

PC games that have different linux and windows compiles allow you to change between them for no cost, typically. I can't imagine xbox360 (cheap microsoft pc) and windows being radically more different than windows and linux.

Ordinary people just do not buy the same game twice. You pay for the right to access the intellectual property, and it seems to be the same property. Mass Effect™.

[Disconnected]

On the other hand, the lot of you condemnation happy fellows would go apeshit if you had to pay full price for yet another fucking version of the same damn music CD just to listen to it in your car. I'm guessing you'd accuse the publishers of stealing.

If it's so terrible to support multiple platforms then don't, cut back on costs, up prices or whatever. I'm sure it's detrimental to an exclusive PC gamer like myself that people pirate copies of software they've already bought & paid for, but it's finely fucking distilled unreason to blame it on legitimate owners of the software. I'll readily agree it's no grey area though.

[thamer]

Grey area? You think if you buy the game on one platform, you're somehow entitled to steal it for another platform? Grey area, my ass. It's a bullshit rationalization for the fact that you're a thief. Little niceties about the color of your ethical dilemma aren't worth the bandwidth you and stusser use to spout them. And it's particularly odious when you guys are spouting them on a forum where members of Bioware are posting. So you can fuck right off with your "grey areas".

Is that black and white enough for you?

-Tom

I think what Tom is trying to say is you should not be downloading it period even if you feel you're entitled to it because it's obvious the developers and publishers feel you should pay for two licenses.

He's right. If you feel like you're being ripped off by having to pay for the PC copy then don't buy either copy and vote with your dollar for a better business practice.

[Cal]

Uh... when did they say that you can only install three times? I think it's obvious it will work like Bioshock, when you uninstall the game they will return your "token".

And i think lots of people didn't understand this copy protection. You don't have to connect every 10 days to validate the game, that would be totally stupid, even for EA!. You run the game whenever you want. Then the game check the last time it validated, if the last time was 9 days, it doesn't do anaything, if it is 10 days or more, it checks the serial key against a master server. That's it.

And also, you have a third option apart from buy it/pirate it, you can buy the game, and then put the crack. I always do it, to evade the dvd check.
You dont get the token back on un-install, you have to call them up to reactive it if you install it too often. (3 times)
They planned on making you authenticate every 10 days online, until they backed down from the consumer backlash. Imagine your game disabling because you dont have a permenant net connection!

And yes i know about the nocd hacks, but generally dont like to use them, and it just seems plain silly that you ironically rely on the pirates to fix the problems DRM causes us honest consumers. As i said before, im happy to Vote with my ££ im now a 360 gamer almost totally, only Gal-Giv2 on my laptop and LOTRO keeps me logging onto my gaming PC these days.

[Sam Jones]

Ordinary people just do not buy the same game twice. You pay for the right to access the intellectual property, and it seems to be the same property. Mass Effect™.

There are two sides to that. On the one hand, clearly Bioware have made a financial investment in creating the PC port - not as much as the initial cost of creating the 360 version, but certainly non-trivial. Software doesn't port itself, nor does it press, package and distribute itself to retail outlets everywhere by magic. It all costs.

On the other hand, there's the mindset you outline above - and that certainly applies more frequently to music. If I bought a cassette or vinyl LP of an album say, ten years ago, I will be much less inclined to pay for a CD or MP3s down the line. If I'd bought a CD in the first place, I would have *absolutely* no problem ripping to MP3, or even downloading pre-ripped files to save further time/effort (and not paying again, even though that's what the publisher/artist might want me to do, and is reflected in the letter of the law). Content producers frequently play very sneaky rhetorical games with consumers regarding the purchase and use of IP - look at the way that new movies to retail are advertised with "Own it on DVD from Monday!" vs their *real* position that you're only buying a license to use software, or music or films.

Ultimately, I don't think, in light of the cost of porting software between platforms, that the "format shifting / Fair Use" argument is really going to fly in the same way it could be argued for music. That said, if somebody had bought ME 360 and downloaded a pirate version of ME PC to check out the performance and design differences I wouldn't be too quick to accuse them of FUNCRIME and lop their head off, whatever the law says, or Cliffski, or Tom Chick.

[TurinTur]

They said you don't get back install tokens if you uninstall and reinstall on a new machine. They said that several times, and it was reiterated in this very thread multiple times. Whether you "think" that is the case or not is irrelevant. What matters is what EA and Bioware said will be the case.



Link?

[Cal]

Link?

http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=628724&forum=125

A few nice quotes from Bioware.


Q: Why does MEPC need to reactivate every 10 days?

A: MEPC needs to authenticate every 10 days to ensure that the CD key used for the game is valid. This is designed to reduce piracy and protect valid CD keys.


Q: What happens if I want to play MEPC but do not have an internet connection?

A: You cannot play MEPC without an internet connection. MEPC must authenticate when it is initially run and every 10 days thereafter.


Q: What happens if I install and activate MEPC with an internet connection, but then do not have an internet connection after 10 days? Can I still play MEPC?

A: No. After 10 days the system needs to re-authenticate via the internet. If you do not have an internet connection you will not be able to play until you are reconnected to the internet and able to re-authenticate.

Q: How many installations will SecuROM allow from my copy of MEPC?

A: Since SecuROM has nothing to do with the installer, you can install and uninstall on the same machine over and over again without any problems. SecuROM also allows you to activate the game on 3 different machines. (Unless you change hardware and then your PC is classed as "a different machine")


Q: Q: What happens if I exceed 3 activations?

A: Your first 3 activations will still work, but any subsequent activation will not work. ( You can call Bioware support to get your 3 activations reset with a valid excuse as explained on page 19)

[Sol Invictus]

http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums...8724&forum=125

A few nice quotes from Bioware.
That kinda blows, man.

I see the need for it, though. Piracy sucks.

[Kareem]

What, exactly, is the need for reactivating the serial key of a game you bought once every 10 days?

What is the need for limiting your license to play the game through 3 computer upgrades, before it becomes useless, and not allowing you to redeem those installs via an uninstallation app?

Piracy does suck. Is the alternative to that inconveniencing the actual consumer that buys a game to the extent that the pirated version offers significant advantages (excluding the fact that you pay nothing)?

That inconvenience is the reason I won't be playing the game until they fix the stupidity of no redeemed installs.

[ZekeDMS]

There are two sides to that. On the one hand, clearly Bioware have made a financial investment in creating the PC port - not as much as the initial cost of creating the 360 version, but certainly non-trivial. Software doesn't port itself, nor does it press, package and distribute itself to retail outlets everywhere by magic. It all costs.


And that's the big reason why I can't just say "OMG BAD" on the subject, nor "Pft, it's fine" unfortunately. It *is* why I really would be glad to pay a little extra for a multi-platform license.

Ports cost money, but paying full price for a license I essentially already bought isn't fair to the customer, not to me. But say "Hey, since you've already registered your game with us on your console, and bought the extra content, for 10 bucks we'll go ahead and set you up with a downloadable copy of <game> you already have", I think that'd be pretty fucking great.

There's money not being paid to developers, but there's also a full cost which was already paid for the license to play the game. I'd say "I don't have to pay for every patch", but that trivializes the cost of the porting, despite being the best example I can think of.

Until then, I pay $60 and get a version which might not even be as good as a later port for some reason, or I may end up with a version that I just won't enjoy as I would on another platform for some reason I don't know. I'd personally cite Oblivion as an example of that. I vastly prefer the PC version, but I couldn't run it above 3 damn FPS for a long time. I got it later via Gamefly, it ran well but I didn't enjoy it nearly as much for some reason(despite being much more playable in terms of framerate and responsiveness), maybe just the interface alone or the control didn't work as well to me. Finally get my PC upgraded, I can play it well now and love it, but it ended up being two years before I could actually play the game I spent that money on in my preferred way. I could have spent $60 more on the console version and had my instant gratification, but I'd have tossed out an extra $60 at that point, paying double the money for the same game.

I have absolutely no regrets about getting Mass Effect in the way I did, because I fucking love it, but even if I would have preferred a PC for it, I wouldn't be buying it again, simply because I've already bought it once.

The current system is unfair to the gamers, and people end up stealing something because they'd have preferred that version in the first place and feel they paid for it. And that takes money from the devs who've spent time and money producing multiple versions, which at least I'd have been happy to pay a bit extra for down the line(or immediately in cases of simultaneous release). Until there's something in the middle, I'll declare neither that it's the root of all evil nor something Jesus would do. I might be, hell, I probably am an extreme minority in wanting this, but most people don't want to pay full price for something twice.

Last thought before getting off this topic, since I've prettymuch expressed my feelings on it. Why don't games get an option? Doesn't Adobe CS3 even have an option to upgrade from CS2 for less than the new price? It seems common for business software(even going from a mac to windows version), but not games. This could just be me absolutely being clueless on port costs vs the costs of a full new version, and if I'm totally wrong, feel free to tell me to fuck off with this.

[RichardC]

A valid "excuse"? Shouldn't that be "reason"?

[ZekeDMS]

Not when the idea is that we're dirty pirates until proven otherwise, I suppose. I still don't understand the reasoning for rechecking the validity of the game every single patch, but at least it's not the 10 day "Did you sell the game and install a cracked version since we last checked?" program anymore, which is really just fucking insulting I think.

At least you can call with a reason to get another set of tokens, I know I'd have needed a few were the game released last year.

[Mox]

Revalidation is to stop you duplicating a validated install, although that should be unnecessary if they have good machine identification software. It also allows them to revoke keys, should they have a reason to do so.

[Kalle]

Needless to say, it pisses me off as both a member of the gaming industry and as a hardcore PC gamer to read these kinds of rationalizations being made by other supposedly hardcore PC gamers who are also members of a gaming industry forum, right to the faces of the game developers themselves. Have they no shame?

I think it's rather shameless of them to charge full price twice for the same product, but what do I know.

[stusser]

So buying the 360 version of a game entitles you to steal versions for other platforms if you don't like the copy protection scheme?
No, I was just pissed off. I think the takeaway is that if you treat your customers like criminals they'll live up to expectations. I would get into it further but Qt3 is the wrong forum to discuss this and I was silly to post it here in the first place.

[Sol Invictus]

I think it's rather shameless of them to charge full price twice for the same product, but what do I know.
But what about people who don't own the 360 version of the game, and are buying it for the first time on the PC? They should be expected to pay the full price, no?

Ideally, people who already own the 360 version of the game would be able to pay some kind of licensing fee to play it on the PC, but it's impossible to set something like that up given the following reasons:

1) The game sold via retail boxed copies and not through digital downloads.
2) The original Mass Effect did not have a serial number associated to it
3) There would need to be some kind of system or registration database that tracks ownership of a game.

Granted, Bioware does have a registration database already in existence through their forum, but the other two issues are still present.

[rei]

I bought DarkStar One ($20) and couldn't play it for a year due to the Targes copy protection not liking my DVD-RW at the time. By the time I got it working nearly a year later, it figured that at that exact time:

1) a no-DVD patch was finally out for the last/latest patch executable not from the publisher but from the usual pirate suspects at GCW
2) it was on Steam for $8
3) it was coming to GameTap (which I have a subscription to)

Bah.

[thamer]

That kinda blows, man.

I see the need for it, though. Piracy sucks.

In the current system used by Bioware, you the consumer pay for the price of the perceived threat of piracy by Bioware/EA. I'm unhappy enough that I will be buying used copies of all products that use this copy protection. It's a perfectly legal and ethical way for me to vote with my dollar. Bioware will earn one less unit of sale due to this.

EDIT: I just realized I can't do this because of the DRM itself. Way to go guys -- killing the used games market.

[Midnight Son]

I'm so done with PC gaming. I'm going to read a book now.

[mono]

I pretty much agree that an inability to get your tokens back via uninstall, or running some sort of revoke utility is unacceptable.

That said, I don't think that folks who bought ME on console really want what they're claiming vis a vis a free or discount copy on alternate platforms. To offer such a deal, you would clearly have to introduce DRM to the console version to prove that you own, and are retaining ownership of your 360 version. It would pretty much require a method to prevent selling used copies of your console games. After all, why would you deserve a free license to the PC version if you just sold your original 360 version back to the game shop?

[thamer]

I pretty much agree that an inability to get your tokens back via uninstall, or running some sort of revoke utility is unacceptable.

That said, I don't think that folks who bought ME on console really want what they're claiming vis a vis a free or discount copy on alternate platforms. To offer such a deal, you would clearly have to introduce DRM to the console version to prove that you own, and are retaining ownership of your 360 version. It would pretty much require a method to prevent selling used copies of your console games. After all, why would you deserve a free license to the PC version if you just sold your original 360 version back to the game shop?

We already have a proof of purchase game code somewhere on the packaging or inside. Honestly, I never registered at Bioware with it though so I have no clue where it is exactly.

In a perfect world they would have just released one DVD with multiple executables for the PS3, Xbox 360, and PC. Do they? Of course not. The market is small enough that they can gouge their customers and not feel bad about it (it's games after all and not food).

This is not unlike buying Nike shoes :D

[Mordrak]

I think it's rather shameless of them to charge full price twice for the same product, but what do I know.

There's significant costs to move it over to the PC properly (at least from what people said here). It may still only be a fraction of the total development costs, but it's not exactly just flipping a switch.

DVDs, Music, Etc, can be transferred to new platforms by the purchaser relatively easily. I can rip dvds to my zune on my own time. I don't need (and shouldn't need) the publisher/studio to do that.

So I think it makes sense for them to sell a PC version separately. Now, if you could port it to the PC by yourself (or with free tools online), I'd say there's nothing wrong with that. That would be like ripping a rom of a game you own to use in an emulator.

[Damien Neil]

For the people using analogies to ripping a CD: Do you think that if you buy an album, you're entitled to download MP3s of a remastered version with additional bonus tracks?

Or, on a more practical note: If you like PC gaming, do you really want your one and only purchase of a game to be the console version? Because that sends a message to the publishers.

If the DRM on a game is offensive to you, there's an easy way to make a statement: Don't buy it. You don't get to play the game, then. Tough. Taking a stand involves making sacrifices.

[Sam Jones]

For the people using analogies to ripping a CD: Do you think that if you buy an album, you're entitled to download MP3s of a remastered version with additional bonus tracks?

Define "entitled" here - if you mean legally, then no, the law is clear that it's a separate product and should be purchased separately. But personally, I wouldn't feel bad about downloading a remaster, bonus tracks or not, if I'd paid for the original release, and I felt that the additional benefit was too marginal to justify another full-price purchase. It would depend on the price, my finances at that moment, the weather, my frame of mind. Anything. Attempting to apply some kind of moral baseline here is completely futile, and the constant flinging of the word "entitlement" as a passive-aggressive insult is tiresome.


Or, on a more practical note: If you like PC gaming, do you really want your one and only purchase of a game to be the console version? Because that sends a message to the publishers.

No, and I made that exact decision only recently, when I bought a 360 for the sole reason of playing GTA4 as soon as possible. I also picked up a bunch of the platform's best exclusives (from PC), but deliberately avoided ME, not because I don't want to play it, but because I want to play what is likely to be the definitive version of it.


If the DRM on a game is offensive to you, there's an easy way to make a statement: Don't buy it. You don't get to play the game, then. Tough. Taking a stand involves making sacrifices.

If EAioware want to generate more consumer goodwill and more sales for MEPC, there's an easy way to make a statement: Don't use aggressive DRM. They may not be maximizing their first week sales, then. Tough. Taking a stand involves making sacrifices.

The DRM actually isn't offensive to me, honestly. I bought Bioshock PC, and the thing just installed, validated and ran flawlessly. I'm buying MEPC, and I fully expect the experience to be the same. If it isn't, I'll download a crack for it, and job done. In all liklihood, I'll play it through once, laugh, cry and gasp, uninstall it and sell it on. Same thing with Spore, which is also a day one purchase for me.

[bago]

I want mass effect back daomnit. It got stolen. As I was remarking to my boss I don't really mind the theft of hardware (subsidized), even the theft of the physical software isn't as damaging as the loss of my save data.

[Damien Neil]

\If EAioware want to generate more consumer goodwill and more sales for MEPC, there's an easy way to make a statement: Don't use aggressive DRM. They may not be maximizing their first week sales, then. Tough. Taking a stand involves making sacrifices.

Ooh, it's the parrot words back with the nouns swapped game! YOU WIN AT THE INTERNETS.

Pirating a game is unquestionably illegal and (in my not so humble opinion) immoral as well. In contrast, releasing a game with obnoxious DRM is neither illegal nor immoral. Your attempt at building an equivalence between the two is absurd on the face of it.

[Kunikos]

In contrast, releasing a game with obnoxious DRM is neither illegal nor immoral. Your attempt at building an equivalence between the two is absurd on the face of it.

No but it's assholish like the store owner who follows you around the store screaming, "YOU BREAK, YOU BUY!"

[Kalle]

If the DRM on a game is offensive to you, there's an easy way to make a statement: Don't buy it. You don't get to play the game, then. Tough. Taking a stand involves making sacrifices.

If you want to play martyr, sure. You're not gonna score any extra points with EA for suffering. The net effect on EA is the same whether you pirate it or not. If you don't wan't to incentivise EA's use of DRM, don't give them money. That's a binary choice. EA cares about the bottom line, they don't care about your conscience.

[The Bird Flu]

No, I was just pissed off. I think the takeaway is that if you treat your customers like criminals they'll live up to expectations. I would get into it further but Qt3 is the wrong forum to discuss this and I was silly to post it here in the first place.

I understand piracy is a sensitive issue here and I respect that after spending a few years as a starving musician.

But, I agree with stusser here. These kind of stupid DRMs do nothing but guarantee I'm either going to pirate your game, or as the case with Mass Effect and Bioshock buy them on the 360. I've been a PC gamer since the 80s but I'm not putting up with limited install BS. It's of my opinion that EA is doing nothing but driving away customers, legitmate ones at that.

The Stardock approach is a much better one. Provide paying customers with good support and game updates.

[zimmitti]

or not
(http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18603)

[rei]

they're late with the news and wrong with the headline.

securerom is not being dropped.

the followup authentication is.

[stusser]

Correct. You still don't get your installs back when you uninstall the game, which is a dealbreaker for me.

[mono]

I'd vastly prefer every-10 day authorization, to a 3 PC hardware limit.

[thamer]

Dan Bernstein wrote this (http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html) a while ago about software users rights. He's been through a case versus the US involving the publication of crypto code.

He links to the US code on software use too on that page.

Basically the DRM mechanism here appears to me to infringe on a software users right.

[Helboi]

I haven't read through the entire thread, so my apologies if this was already mentioned:

"Officials from Electronic Arts owned developer BioWare Corp. have confirmed that the company will not be using previously described anti-piracy software in its future games, after an outcry from online fans."

Read more over at Gamasutra's story about it here (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18603).

[Stroker Ace]

How was he to know which posts to not-read?!?

[Alan Au]

How was he to know which posts to not-read?!?To be fair, at least he didn't try to start a new thread about it.

- Alan

[Sam Jones]

Pirating a game is unquestionably illegal and (in my not so humble opinion) immoral as well. In contrast, releasing a game with obnoxious DRM is neither illegal nor immoral. Your attempt at building an equivalence between the two is absurd on the face of it.

I wasn't - I was pointing out that they have a *choice* not to put aggressive DRM on the games. Nobody is forcing them to do it, in the same way that putting it on doesn't force people to pirate it. Not using it didn't do IronBrad any harm with Sins.

[Lux]

Honestly I think publishers have reached the point where they assume every PC gamer is completely conversant in 'the scene' and how to get cracked and pirated games working. For title after title I see tech support forums with DRM related problems that are seldom fixed (because the DRM is actually middleware that the developer knows very little about). Given the general inability to return opened software the only way for many of these customers to get at the software they've purchased a liscense for is to hit up 'the scene'.

This really bugs me for several reasons:

1. The dev/pub should provide the support required to get the product working or refund the customer.

2. Essentially the buggy DRM combined with return laws (also crafted to combat piracy) are pushing the skills of piracy onto consumers who just want to buy a product and have it work. The stone wall that some folks run into with tech support seems like the publisher saying to the customer: "Just use the crack already, we dont' want to mess with helping you anymore."

3. Once they've done this to get their purchased software working they may already have strayed outside of the realms of leagality (EULA's differ in this regard and I'm not aware of legal precedent either way with specific reference to circumventing copy protection to get legally purchased software running).

4. This leads easily to the self justifying statement "well, I'm not going to pay the developers to be an criminal next time, I'll just download it without paying."

All security and computer stability issues aside, I have a hard time condeming these folks who make (sometimes herculean) efforts to get products to work within the bounds of the law only to be spat upon by a company who already has their non-refundable purchase. Piracy is a problem but I honestly believe that these kind of measures (particularly the perpetually buggy Securom middleware) only serve to amplify this particular problem.

Finally, keep in mind that this comment is coming from a guy who purchases all of his software both games and utilitarian.

[Helboi]

I can understand not wanting to read the whole thread from the beginning, but what about reading the last 5 posts? You're just being exceptionally lazy.

- Alan

Well, hello there Alan, nice to meet you too. I see the welcome brigade is out in full force. ;)

Sorry, but I don't have time to read through every single post on every single thread, and not doing so certainly doesn't make me "exceptionally lazy". Did my single post in this thread really bother you that much? Could you not have just skipped it if you'd already read about what I was posting instead of taking the time to berate me about it? It seems that of the two, your post was the more unnecessary one.

Furthermore, I did go back and read through a number of posts, I guess I just missed the ones that talked about the story I posted about.

[nlanza]

Well, hello there Alan, nice to meet you too.

Sorry, but I don't have time to read through every single post on every single thread, and not doing so certainly doesn't make me "exceptionally lazy". Did my single post in this thread really bother you that much? Could you not have just skipped it if you'd already read about what I was posting instead of taking the time to berate me about it? It seems that of the two, your post was the more unnecessary one.

As another poster pointed out, at least I didn't start another thread about it.

Now might be the time to step back and think carefully about whether or not you want this to be your first big QT3 flamewar. That sort of thing is a special occasion, and you probably want to plan for it instead of just letting it happen. Save it for prom night, y'know?

This isn't really the sort of place where the regulars are going to back down and apologize if you lash out at them.

[Helboi]

Now might be the time to step back and think carefully about whether or not you want this to be your first big QT3 flamewar. That sort of thing is a special occasion, and you probably want to plan for it instead of just letting it happen. Save it for prom night, y'know?

This isn't really the sort of place where the regulars are going to back down and apologize if you lash out at them.

Oh come now, flame war? I was simply responding to him. I don't really see where I was "lashing out". I also never requested, nor expected, an apology. Take it with a grain...

[André Costa]

Sorry, but I don't have time to read through every single post on every single thread, and not doing so certainly doesn't make me "exceptionally lazy".

Sorry, can you explain this part again?

[Helboi]

Sorry, can you explain this part again?

You jest, yes?

[MattKeil]

Sorry, can you explain this part again?

Maybe it's the "exceptionally" he disagrees with?

[Helboi]

Maybe it's the "exceptionally" he disagrees with?

No, actually it's the whole thing. Especially considering that I did read a number of posts in this rather long thread. I just missed the one that mentioned the story I posted about.

[Lux]

Maybe it's the "exceptionally" he disagrees with?

"Lazy" is also a pretty subjective term. Perhaps he hasn't lurked long enough to know the context for "exceptionally" or "lazy" on this particular forum.

[Alan Au]

Sorry, that was a totally unnecessary thread derail. There was really no way for you to have known that the earlier link was to the exact same Gamasutra article. I'm a bit surprised it took them so long to pick up the story though, which is why I was so indignant in the first place.

- Alan

[MattKeil]

Sorry, that was a totally unnecessary thread derail. There was really no way for you to have known that the earlier link was to the exact same Gamasutra article.

He could have, y'know...clicked on it.

[ZekeDMS]

We're in the middle of a DRM/Piracy debate, this is no time to be reasonable Alan!

[John Sansker]

Ooh, it's the parrot words back with the nouns swapped game! YOU WIN AT THE INTERNETS.

Pirating a game is unquestionably illegal and (in my not so humble opinion) immoral as well. In contrast, releasing a game with obnoxious DRM is neither illegal nor immoral. Your attempt at building an equivalence between the two is absurd on the face of it.

Really?

I mean, really?

It is immoral as hell.

Imagine if one of the big three automakers in the US decided that, in the interest of public safety, to start installing breathalyzer interlocks on the ignition systems of all the vehicles they make for sale in the US.
Which is cool and all, but, the things have a high defect rate and a lot of people who don't drink at all, blow into the stupid ass devices and their cars won't start.
Even, better, some dudes go to a bar in the next county over cause they live in a dry one.
It's winter time, and they go to leave and the car won't start cause they have all been drinking, and they pass out and freeze to death.
This is a bit more extreme than some stupid-as-fuck DRM bullshit, but, then again, there was Starforce which would break your shit. (tho, this was never proven)


We, as gamers really need to take a stand against these idiots and say "enough is enough".

[Damien Neil]

Really?

Yes, with the caveat that they need to be up-front about the nature of the DRM. Anything which silently adds a permanent presence to your system (Starforce, WildTangent) is over the line.

Aside from that, if the publisher wants to say that they're only going to sell games to left-handed redheads who are willing to sing three bars of Yankee Doodle Dandy every time they start the game except on alternate Thursdays when they aren't allowed to play...well, that's entirely their choice. Just as it's my choice to tell them to go screw themselves and refuse to buy their products.

Don't like the DRM? Don't buy the game. That's what I do. I won't touch anything that has Starforce on it, for example; I've passed up some games that I really wanted to play because of that, but so it goes.

[Brendan]

What is it with all the bad analogies whenever QT3 starts discussing piracy?

Sadly enough, publishers are within their rights to employ whatever non-destructive methods they see fit to protect their products. It's up to the market to determine which methods they are willing to tolerate.

[Mordrak]

Aside from that, if the publisher wants to say that they're only going to sell games to left-handed redheads who are willing to sing three bars of Yankee Doodle Dandy every time they start the game except on alternate Thursdays when they aren't allowed to play...well, that's entirely their choice. Just as it's my choice to tell them to go screw themselves and refuse to buy their products.


I don't think it's as clear cut as it seems. There was a Barbie case years ago where Mattel sued some cult barbie convention where they took barbies and put them in all sorts of situations that didn't reflect well on the brand (at least according to Mattel.) Anyway, Mattel lost.

Of course, the Barbie was already sold at that point and your example is technically pre-sale, but given that they don't restrict sales and the tenuous nature of EULAs (and I personally believe software is a product, not a service), publishers don't have unlimited powers to restrict what you do with software and it's conceivable that some attempts would be immoral.



Sadly enough, publishers are within their rights to employ whatever non-destructive methods they see fit to protect their products. It's up to the market to determine which methods they are willing to tolerate.


It's arguable that installation tokens and server authentication are both destructive, at least as far as for the product you just purchased.

[John Sansker]

I don't think it's as clear cut as it seems. There was a Barbie case years ago where Mattel sued some cult barbie convention where they took barbies and put them in all sorts of situations that didn't reflect well on the brand (at least according to Mattel.) Anyway, Mattel lost.

Of course, the Barbie was already sold at that point and your example is technically pre-sale, but given that they don't restrict sales and the tenuous nature of EULAs (and I personally believe software is a product, not a service), publishers don't have unlimited powers to restrict what you do with software and it's conceivable that some attempts would be immoral.


I heard something like this on the news the other day.
Someone had taken a Ferrari and turned it into a stretch limo and Ferrari called them and told them, "it's no longer a Ferrari, take the badges off of it NOW".
Not sure how that one turned out, but I'm of a mind, it's mine now and I'll do whatever in the fuck I want with it.

[Kareem]

Sadly enough, publishers are within their rights to employ whatever non-destructive methods they see fit to protect their products. It's up to the market to determine which methods they are willing to tolerate.

How is it nondestructive when your game becomes unplayable after you've upgraded the PC you play it on 3 times?

[SqueakyFoo]

How is it nondestructive when your game becomes unplayable after you've upgraded the PC you play it on 3 times?
Because it doesn't disable your computer in any way?

[John Sansker]

Because it doesn't disable your computer in any way?

No, it just makes the $50 you spent on the game "disabled".

[bago]

It's like is so unfair if you only have one hand. (Might as well keep on the bleeding edge of bad analogies). A kind of razor for stupid people, tied up in a funny knot.

[Brendan]

How is it nondestructive when your game becomes unplayable after you've upgraded the PC you play it on 3 times?

What SqueakyFoo said.

I'd just like to add one more thing to this conversation. The biggest problem at the moment surrounding DRM is transparency and disclosure. The ESA or some other body has to require publishers to clearly mark on a game box what version of DRM/copy protection is present and any usage restrictions imposed by it so that buyers can make more informed decisions.

[SRFisher]

I played and loved Mass Effect, enough to go through it a second time, despite my increasing gaming backlog. I was planning on getting the PC version too. This DRM kills that plan.

Sincere kudos for removing the 10-day reverification... but I can't help but think:
EA wanted to kill the used game market for PC Mass Effect.
EA knew they could do it with heavy DRM that uses nonreturnable install tokens.
EA knew Bioware fans hated DRM.So, EA deliberately pushed the most hated third party brand of copy protection, with the most onerous limitations they could. If enough fans protested, EA could scale it back to the draconian level it really wanted. Ta-da! A Triple-A game with no aftermarket, and EA comes out looking like reasonable people, instead of evil executive bean-counters.

Conspiracy? Maybe. Seems like basic big company executive sales-think.

Right now, the nonreturnable tokens is a no-sell and a no-recommend for me. In terms of net promoter, I'm a detractor. I like the aftermarket, even with gougers like EBgames, and I can't support anything that tries to destroy it. This is sad, since I've been playing Bioware games all the way back to Baldur's Gate and MDK2, and was really looking forward to Dragon Age.

[ZekeDMS]

And then, when customers complain they have to have the CD in the drive, it's their own fault for not accepting the perfectly reasonable DRM option they were given before. Ungrateful bastards.

Honestly, I don't think it's that level of malevolence. I think it's just incredibly poorly thought out and overly aggressive DRM. I certainly understand the reason, I just don't think it's stopping anyone who's planning to steal the game anyway. They'll download the cracked executables, just the same as quite a few legit users will do I'm sure.

[Kareem]

Because it doesn't disable your computer in any way?


What SqueakyFoo said.

Since when does destructive only mean that it renders your computer unusable? What about that coaster DVD you'll never be able to use after that 3rd PC upgrade?

[Helboi]

The whole DRM thing in the games industry is starting to remind me a whole lot of the DRM battle in the music industry. DRM is a no-win situation in the long run and the video game industry should get smart about it an figure out a way to keep their industry alive without the DRM, rather than fight it tooth and nail like the music industry has done.

[Fugitive]

Since when does destructive only mean that it renders your computer unusable? What about that coaster DVD you'll never be able to use after that 3rd PC upgrade?
This is where the software-as-license element comes in and they would argue that it's not destructive because you agreed to that limitation in the course of buying and installing the game, and it's just like many other things that limit when or how many times you can use them.

That's a whole other can-o-worms, though, and I admittedly have a conflict of interest here as the business software we write depends heavily on the licensing model...

[TheTrunkDr]

This is where the software-as-license element comes in and they would argue that it's not destructive because you agreed to that limitation in the course of buying and installing the game, and it's just like many other things that limit when or how many times you can use them.

That's a whole other can-o-worms, though, and I admittedly have a conflict of interest here as the business software we write depends heavily on the licensing model...
Depending on what your company does their software might very well be a service and subject to a contract in which such stipulations can be made and enforced.

This isn't the case with typical layman commercial software, such as games. They're sold without any contract and in the same manner as a product, not a service. If such software developers and video game developers want that level of control then they'll have to get their consumers to sign a contract in which all of these issues are stated. A EULA isn't currently a contract and has yet to be deemed un/enforceable in most places.

Currently games are marketed and sold as a product and consumers can (and should be able to) do whatever they like with the products they've purchased. A company limiting that ability is very much destructive as it's destroying the product you own. I'd also argue that intentionally destroying (or rendering useless) something that someone owns is immoral whether or not the person knows of this imminent destruction upfront is irrelevant.

[John Sansker]

http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/08may/uf011511.gif
Bwuahahahahahha.

[krise madsen]

I think we need to go beyond the "morals and rights" of piracy and copy protection.

Imagine the games industry as your local department store: It has good products at fair prices, but shoplifting is such a big problem that just breaking even is bit of a lottery. So they have staff checking your bags. Now, they're clearly in their right to protect themselves from the shoplifters. But even though you always pay for you goods, how many times will you put up with having them rummage through your goods before you find somewhere else to shop?

I always pay for my games, out of principle, and I don't allow the likes of StarForce, SecuRom and similar follies on my HD, out of principle. "Trust is good, control is better" as they say. DRM is about control. And given past experiences, I quite frankly don't trust the industry to administer that control properly.

Which leaves me in the bizarre situation that I have to rely on the pirates to keep CP junk off my HD and ensure I can play my favorite game in two years when the publisher/developer pull the plug on the authentication server. You see, pirates are trustworthy: I can always rely on them to crack a game. I can't trust the industry (some, not all, obviously) not to screw me over my legally purchased game.

It just my opinion, but when honest paying customers like me end up saying "Thank God we've got pirates" then something is seriously wrong.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[ZekeDMS]

That's a good, and sadly fucked up way of looking at it.

I still dislike the store analogy since you're not pulling an item from a shelf, you're copying it. Stealing a game doesn't also mean there's now a unit that can't be sold(well, unless you actually steal it from a store). That doesn't make it not bad, it's just a different problem. If you pulled a box of macaroni from a store shelf and it tasted the same and was just as good, and another appeared magically at no cost to the store, that's a bit more of an analogy. Also if you buy the box of maraconi, you have to add a special ingredient you get when you check out of the store or it won't cook right, unless look up the recipe for the special ingredient, which turns out to be "salt and some olive oil" and then the macaroni cooks fine but you can't eat it with other people.

Okay, that metaphor broke down pretty badly at the end.

[krise madsen]

I still dislike the store analogy since you're not pulling an item from a shelf, you're copying it. (e.c.t.)

You're right copying isn't exactly the same as stealing a tangible product. I'm not saying it's more wrong or right, just different. I just don't think the similarities/differences are relevant (i.e. piracy is costing the industry money, we're just not sure quite how much).


Okay, that metaphor broke down pretty badly at the end.

Hey I like Macaroni too!

Respectfully

krise madsen

[ZekeDMS]

Well, with physical items, it's a quantifiable loss. With copied IP, that person may never have gotten it anyway, it's hard to call it a loss when it was never going to be a sale in the first place, vs. something someone could have bought or would have, were it not missing and thus unavailable.

That's why there just never seem(to me) to be good numbers on how much piracy really costs. There's definitely a cost, and I doubt it's insignificant, but what's the real number on it?

[Kalle]

There's definitely a cost, and I doubt it's insignificant, but what's the real number on it?

While I agree with you about the cost, there is no real number. There isn't even a close approximation. You can't (yet, anyway) tell with any degree of precision what people would have bought had external factors been different. Especially not when one of those factors happens to be illegal. People lie to themselves and to others if they can get away with it. You can poll, and guess, and hunch, but you won't find any real numbers because there are none to be found.

[malkav11]

I don't think it's so much like a store checking your bags as you leave (which a lot of them more or less do, with the scanners at the exit), but like the store sending an employee to your house whenever you use the product and then taking it back to the store once you've used it in three separate ways.

As long as we're forcing analogies.

[Zylon]

It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is an install token for a knife.

[mouselock]

Aside from that, if the publisher wants to say that they're only going to sell games to left-handed redheads who are willing to sing three bars of Yankee Doodle Dandy every time they start the game except on alternate Thursdays when they aren't allowed to play...well, that's entirely their choice.

Err.. no it's not. Just consider for a second replacing your class (left-handed redheads, etc...) with a slightly more politically expedient class. Suddenly it's not the publisher's choice at all. It's flat out discrimination.

All this, of course, to prove that the publisher does have ethical responsibilities. One of which is delivering a product which fulfills the function for which it was designed. It's entirely unclear to me that it's moral, or even necessarily legal, for publishers to design a product to break (which is essentially what limited activations is) and then sell it as a fully functioning product. We don't see automakers designing cars that you have to take in every year after you bought it to change the oil and, oh yeah, get permission to continue driving it.

I think your insistence that it's an entirely moral thing is more than a bit shaky. Illegal? No. Primarily because we don't have enough consumer protection laws for this type of stuff, and the government tends to always fall on the side of the corporations. (Hello DMCA and the dichotomy of being allowed to rip my CDs, but not my DVDs, even if it's for the exact same purpose.)

Mind you, I'm 100% with you on the point of pirates being immoral. But that doesn't mean that anything done to combat piracy is inherently moral, nor does this particular trend strike me as such. (It also strikes me as astoundingly shortsighted, frankly. Alienating the most affluent, well-educated, and presumably loaded with disposable income subsection of your dwindling population of customers strikes me as a tremendously poor way to combat the shrinking sales of PC games. But I'm sure EA will stick it to the 17-2x demographic that already views games as a disposable, short-term commodity unworth a $50 investment anyway.)

[Brian Seiler]

We don't see automakers designing cars that you have to take in every year after you bought it to change the oil and, oh yeah, get permission to continue driving it.

Now, I'm not old enough to remember this, but I'm old enough that my friends can remember when they were making car dashboards with polymers specifically designed to dry out and crack after three years or so. What was the legality on that? And that's an honest question, because I'm not sure. I know they don't do it any more.

[Sam Jones]

It's entirely unclear to me that it's moral, or even necessarily legal, for publishers to design a product to break (which is essentially what limited activations is) and then sell it as a fully functioning product.

Especially devs and publishers that deliberately put app crashes into the game as copy protection.

[John Sansker]

That's a good, and sadly fucked up way of looking at it.

I still dislike the store analogy since you're not pulling an item from a shelf, you're copying it. Stealing a game doesn't also mean there's now a unit that can't be sold(well, unless you actually steal it from a store). That doesn't make it not bad, it's just a different problem. If you pulled a box of macaroni from a store shelf and it tasted the same and was just as good, and another appeared magically at no cost to the store, that's a bit more of an analogy. Also if you buy the box of maraconi, you have to add a special ingredient you get when you check out of the store or it won't cook right, unless look up the recipe for the special ingredient, which turns out to be "salt and some olive oil" and then the macaroni cooks fine but you can't eat it with other people.

Okay, that metaphor broke down pretty badly at the end.


A better analogy here is it is more akin to counterfeiting than outright theft.
Since, you are using a copy of a copy that you got off the net.

[Therlun]

There's definitely a cost, and I doubt it's insignificant, but what's the real number on it?

I would just like to point out that at least for the music industry there are serious studies that come to the conclusion that at the high point of Napster piracy not only caused damage but ALSO helped music sales.

It probably cant be applied to games that easily, and its very easy to be marked as just another pirate who cites "faked studies", but I think there might also be a certain beneficial effect from pirating in certain areas.

[Rolercam]

Really?

there was Starforce which would break your shit. (tho, this was never proven)


It was proven. Games for Windows magazine , which was know then as Computer Gaming World, took a look at Starforce in their lab. They claimed that when a Starforce protected game was uninstalled the Starforce driver was not. Since it acted as another layer to your drive controller it would cause read/write errors when there was no Starforce protected games installed. When Windows recieves reports on these errors it asssumes that something is wrong with the drive and lowers the read/write mode one notch. Eventually it gets down to PIO mode. According to the magazine a lot of optical drives are not designed to run in this mode and it could cause a drive to fail if left in that mode too long.

I don't have the issue anymore so I can't quote the exact article but this is the jist of what I remember.

Back on topic.

The complaints against EA's new copy protection are justifed but confusing. We let Valve get away with something far worse with Half-Life 2. (I'm not interested in the usual fanboy response to this. If that is all you got please ignore the last sentance.) Bioshock was a proven success despite almost identical copy protection. The gaming community has even been know to write patches for brand new games. I am surprised that EA took this long to do this. It seems to me that over the years we have made it fairly clear to distributors that as long as the game doesn't break the computer and runs at the end of the day we will put up with it after the intial griping dies down.

Don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to defend this crap. EA is clearly using Mass Effect and Spore to test the waters since they know both games will sell well. It is going to get worse and since the gaming community as a whole does seem willing or able to put up a unified front there doesn't seem to be much point in arguing over it.

[Iorek_Byrnison]

Well, well, well... sixteen pages of the same old arguments, every single word of which I'll admit to not having read, and yet still no resolution or concession by the DRM Nazis that their ever-increasingly Draconian copy protection schemes are what's causing PC game piracy, not fighting it.

OK, not literally causing it -- because we're dealing with human beings here and, as with police and the clergy, we can't always depend on those who should know better to do the right thing -- but certainly contributing to its rise and resultant rationalizations by its practitioners.

Consider:

1. Half-Life 2. I bought a boxed copy and found I needed the CD in the drive to play even though Steam-delivered copies had no such restriction. A quick visit to one of many game "Fix" sites got around that, not long before Steam itself removed the annoyance via update.

2. The StarForce "protection" on King Kong physically destroyed two of my DVD drives and required a Windows reinstall. I don't even know if a "fixed" and torrented version was available because UbiSoft had already destroyed my confidence in their credibility and I wanted nothing further to do with them.

3. Remember Interstate '76? It wouldn't run on my system at the time because my CD-Writer was inline after my CD-ROM drive -- built-in copy "protection" that prevented me from playing it without physically reconfiguring my system.

4. My legitimate copy of Bioshock failed to see the DVD eight out of ten times, the drive squealing and shuddering in its futile attempts to do so. A cracked .EXE file solved that problem.

5. I found out just in time to not buy Lost Planet: Extreme COndition because it needed an active Steam connection not only to install but to play a fucking Single Player Campaign offline! No connection = no play. As Sigourney Weaver said in Galaxy Quest: "Screw that!" I downloaded, played, finished and enjoyed a de-Steamed torrented copy I would gladly have paid for had the absurd "copy punishment" scheme not been so invasive and presumptuous.

I could go on and on here, both preaching to the choir and inciting to riot, but the fact remains that if game companies insist on treating their paying customers like criminals they might as well be.

Now Mass Effect stands to be the next no-buy torrent-in-queue if they do indeed go ahead with the same shortsighted bullshit.

All are punished.

All are punished.

[fire5]

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[Adree]

Well, well, well... sixteen pages of the same old arguments, every single word of which I'll admit to not having read, and yet still no resolution or concession by the DRM Nazis that their ever-increasingly Draconian copy protection schemes are what's causing PC game piracy, not fighting it.

OK, not literally causing it -- because we're dealing with human beings here and, as with police and the clergy, we can't always depend on those who should know better to do the right thing -- but certainly contributing to its rise and resultant rationalizations by its practitioners.

Consider:

1. Half-Life 2. I bought a boxed copy and found I needed the CD in the drive to play even though Steam-delivered copies had no such restriction. A quick visit to one of many game "Fix" sites got around that, not long before Steam itself removed the annoyance via update.

2. The StarForce "protection" on King Kong physically destroyed two of my DVD drives and required a Windows reinstall. I don't even know if a "fixed" and torrented version was available because UbiSoft had already destroyed my confidence in their credibility and I wanted nothing further to do with them.

3. Remember Interstate '76? It wouldn't run on my system at the time because my CD-Writer was inline after my CD-ROM drive -- built-in copy "protection" that prevented me from playing it without physically reconfiguring my system.

4. My legitimate copy of Bioshock failed to see the DVD eight out of ten times, the drive squealing and shuddering in its futile attempts to do so. A cracked .EXE file solved that problem.

5. I found out just in time to not buy Lost Planet: Extreme COndition because it needed an active Steam connection not only to install but to play a fucking Single Player Campaign offline! No connection = no play. As Sigourney Weaver said in Galaxy Quest: "Screw that!" I downloaded, played, finished and enjoyed a de-Steamed torrented copy I would gladly have paid for had the absurd "copy punishment" scheme not been so invasive and presumptuous.

I could go on and on here, both preaching to the choir and inciting to riot, but the fact remains that if game companies insist on treating their paying customers like criminals they might as well be.

Now Mass Effect stands to be the next no-buy torrent-in-queue if they do indeed go ahead with the same shortsighted bullshit.

All are punished.

All are punished.

Ground floor on shortest posting career ever.

[Bill Dungsroman]

1. Half-Life 2. I bought a boxed copy and found I needed the CD in the drive to play even though Steam-delivered copies had no such restriction. A quick visit to one of many game "Fix" sites got around that, not long before Steam itself removed the annoyance via update.

So did I and I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Iorek_Byrnison]

Ground floor on shortest posting career ever.

Truth hurts.

I state my position here as a consumer. People trying to sell me goods should be aware of the repercussions of the steps they take to treat me as guilty until proven innocent.

You think I'm the only one? You think keeping silent on this subject is beneficial to the community? Is this a forum for the exchange of ideas or a house of worship for advertisers and the retail market?

If wahrheit ist verboten here, then so be it.

[MattKeil]

You'll find that backhanded justifications for theft generally don't qualify as "exchange of ideas" around here.

[Adree]

Truth hurts.

I state my position here as a consumer. People trying to sell me goods should be aware of the repercussions of the steps they take to treat me as guilty until proven innocent.

You think I'm the only one? You think keeping silent on this subject is beneficial to the community? Is this a forum for the exchange of ideas or a house of worship for advertisers and the retail market?

If wahrheit ist verboten here, then so be it.
http://www.boomspeed.com/prclz/fight_the_power.jpg

[Kunikos]

Is this a forum for the exchange of ideas or a house of worship for advertisers and the retail market?

Obviously it's neither. It's supposed to be talk about random game wankery, what the fuck do you think?

[Iorek_Byrnison]

You'll find that backhanded justifications for theft generally don't qualify as "exchange of ideas" around here.

I apologise if you mistook anything I said as justification, backhanded or otherwise. If anything, it's an open and hostile returned "Fuck You" to the publishers concerned.

If your company were being stolen from would you not be interested in the hows and whys of the person(s) doing the stealing? Or would you be satisfied with merely ramping up security rather than finding out why you're being targeted and what you could do to remove that focus?

No, wait -- I know: Let's just do a coy little dance around the subject, pretending we're not talking about what we're talking about.

Jeez.

Oh, and Adree, I have no idea what your graphic signifies. Perhaps you were looking for this one:

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/head-in-the-sand.jpg

[Adree]

http://www.junkfoodnews.net/popcorn-largestball.jpg

[MattKeil]

I apologise if you mistook anything I said as justification, backhanded or otherwise.

Try not stating it as one next time. Assuming there is a next time.


If your company were being stolen from would you not be interested in the hows and whys of the person doing the stealing? Would you be satisfied with merely ramping up security or would you rather find out why you're being targeted and what steps you could take to remove that focus?

The hows and whys are pretty well known. I'm not really sure why you think what you posted is some kind of revelation.


Oh, and Adree, I have no idea what your graphic signifies.

http://xore.ca/missingthepoint.png

[Kunikos]

The hows and whys are pretty well known. I'm not really sure why you think what you posted is some kind of revelation.

How dare you suggest that the forum's newest preeminent scholar on "how and why piracy happens" isn't a total fucking Rhodes Scholar level genius here. Obviously he was the inventor of every anti-piracy scheme ever and all of the PR campaigns too.

[MattKeil]

Obviously he was the inventor of every anti-piracy scheme ever and all of the PR campaigns too.

Obviously not, or there would be no piracy.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Truth hurts.

I state my position here as a consumer. People trying to sell me goods should be aware of the repercussions of the steps they take to treat me as guilty until proven innocent.

You think I'm the only one? You think keeping silent on this subject is beneficial to the community? Is this a forum for the exchange of ideas or a house of worship for advertisers and the retail market?

If wahrheit ist verboten here, then so be it.

This board and the people on it have been around for years and this discussion has come up over and over in various forms. I'm sorry, but your impression of yourself as a cut-to-the-chase, tell-it-like-it-is vox populi isn't accurate. You're just kinda being a twat, really.

Furthermore, you've yet to say anything interesting, fresh or new on the subject - beyond how highly you, yourself regard what you've said so far, that is. Using your status as one of the buying public doesn't really carry the argumentative weight you and a lot of people who barge into these types of discussions full of little more than the platitudes and cliches we've seen so far seem to always think they do.

Likewise, getting banned because you're threatening to pirate games is of equal non-consequence. If you want to make people care about what you have to say, leave out all the ultimatums that nobody cares about for a start.

[tiohn]

pussyfart

Twatwaffle.

Edit:
I think we have our first furry!

[Iorek_Byrnison]

I already admitted to not having read every single word of the preceeding 15 pages -- it was a bit daunting and I obviously wanted to jump right in and start offending -- and being new here how could I possibly be aware of what has or hasn't been done to death and how?

Look, I really don't give a crap; In my own pathetic way I was just trying to contribute. Still, if nothing I said is new, interesting or revelatory why is this subject still being dissected with no clear determinations or conclusions?

Seems to me there's something missing from the recipe but I'll stay out of the kitchen if that's what makes you happy.

[ZekeDMS]

Ground floor on shortest posting career ever.

My money is on fire5. I suppose one could win the game here by creating an alt that promotes a porographic game torrent website using large NSFW banners. That is, games which are pornographic, not a game torrent site which is also pornographic, but that'd be an amusing idea.

"Oh baby, you see that draken.iso so good I'm gonna spray my packets all over your open ports!"

[Tom Chick]

Iorek, one thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of people on this forum who making a living from the gaming industry, whether we're publishers, developers, or even writers in the gaming press. It's certainly okay to talk about piracy, but if you're going to advocate for, brag about, or even openly admit to stealing from the people on this forum, you're not welcome here. Just an FYI.

-Tom

[MattKeil]

it was a bit daunting and I obviously wanted to jump right in and start offending


I was just trying to contribute.

Indeed.


Still, if nothing I said is new, interesting or revelatory why is this subject still being dissected with no clear determinations or conclusions?

Because this is a forum for the exchange of ideas.

[SqueakyFoo]

I already admitted to not having read every single word of the preceeding 15 pages -- it was a bit daunting and I obviously wanted to jump right in and start offending -- and being new here how could I possibly be aware of what has or hasn't been done to death and how?
It's called lurking. You don't want to be called out as an idiot, then read the forum for a few months. Hell, I lurked here for 4 years before I started posting. It makes things go much smoother and you end up looking like less of a jackass.

[Iorek_Byrnison]

You're right. Bad start there.

My apologies.

I hope that at least some of what I said was helpful in some tiny way, but it won't come up again.

[Midnight Son]

So, who's still arguing EA's DRM bullshit is good for you and me?




Ok, then.

[Matt Perkins]

So, who's still arguing EA's DRM bullshit is good for you and me?
I thought we closed that can of worms right on up. If you want to open it again, I know a guy....

[Matt Perkins]

You're right. Bad start there.

My apologies.

I hope that at least some of what I said was helpful in some tiny way, but it won't come up again.
Not fastest posting career ever, but a mighty fast turn about! :)

[Iorek_Byrnison]

OK, so I lied. It looks like this will come up again...

But now that I know the rules, let me first apologise for reopening the worm tin but the more I've thought about our previous exchange the more confused I've gotten. I understand that many here are professional games industy people, from the actual creative artists, through the pandering publishers and bottom-feeding "journalists," and that a very personal and protective vested interest exists in this area.

But, if this topic HAS already been done to death yet continues to rear its ugly head, whether by newcomers like myself or otherwise, then logic would dictate that it not only continues to be a problem but that no one is interested in learning from the experiences and testimonials to its problemness. (Sorry about that, Chief.)

So, without purposely ruffling the feathers of outrage again, and purely in the interest of furthering the intellectual process, I would like to see responses from said industry insiders -- or anyone who doesn't just want to flame my ass for asking -- as to the whys of piracy as directly related to their seemingly pointless and punitive copy-protection efforts.

So help me, I didn't start out as a pirate -- quite the contrary, actually -- but I was slowly made into one, one excrutiating irritation at a time. Every new release faced a gauntlet of Buy Or Download? criteria that, according to the Status Quo here, don't mean diddly. I mean, I'm just one guy who blindly stumbled aboard the Flying Dutchman after being clubbed senseless by things like StarForce; how many others does my single percent represent in those whose sole purpose is to stick it to you guys just because they can?

Please understand that this isn't an advocacy, an instigation or a confessional; I'd just like to see the relationship between game makers and game players back on a less combative and paranoid ground.

[John Sansker]

OK, so I lied. It looks like this will come up again...

But now that I know the rules, let me first apologise for reopening the worm tin but the more I've thought about our previous exchange the more confused I've gotten. I understand that many here are professional games industy people, from the actual creative artists, through the pandering publishers and bottom-feeding "journalists," and that a very personal and protective vested interest exists in this area.

But, if this topic HAS already been done to death yet continues to rear its ugly head, whether by newcomers like myself or otherwise, then logic would dictate that it not only continues to be a problem but that no one is interested in learning from the experiences and testimonials to its problemness. (Sorry about that, Chief.)

So, without purposely ruffling the feathers of outrage again, and purely in the interest of furthering the intellectual process, I would like to see responses from said industry insiders -- or anyone who doesn't just want to flame my ass for asking -- as to the whys of piracy as directly related to their seemingly pointless and punitive copy-protection efforts.

So help me, I didn't start out as a pirate -- quite the contrary, actually -- but I was slowly made into one, one excrutiating irritation at a time. Every new release faced a gauntlet of Buy Or Download? criteria that, according to the Status Quo here, don't mean diddly. I mean, I'm just one guy who blindly stumbled aboard the Flying Dutchman after being clubbed senseless by things like StarForce; how many others does my single percent represent in those whose sole purpose is to stick it to you guys just because they can?

Please understand that this isn't an advocacy, an instigation or a confessional; I'd just like to see the relationship between game makers and game players back on a less combative and paranoid ground.

Copy protection schemes prevent the casual pirate.
Without CP, you could buy a game, install it on your comp, then pass it along to your friends.
However, hard core pirates aren't stopped by the CP schemes, hell, they aren't even slowed down any really.
In most cases a game can be found on torrent sites days or even a week before retail release.(along with the necessary cracks to get it to work)
So, the publishers insist on their idiotic-ass CP because in a sense it does in fact prevent piracy.
The reality is, it only winds up pissing off the consumer.(but, 99% of the game publishers really don't give a fuck about anything but the bottom line, so pissing off their customers means nothing to them)

[stusser]

Discussing piracy here here isn't frowned upon because of any moral or legal implications so much as that developers are members of the community and it's terribly rude. This argument makes sense to pretty much everybody.

My suggestion is to just drop it. Everything has already been said on the matter, EA is evil big surprise whoop-de-doo, we're treading water.

[Alan Au]

So, without purposely ruffling the feathers of outrage again, and purely in the interest of furthering the intellectual process, I would like to see responses from said industry insiders -- or anyone who doesn't just want to flame my ass for asking -- as to the whys of piracy as directly related to their seemingly pointless and punitive copy-protection efforts.
The Qt3 groupthink is generally anti-piracy but doesn't like the current DRM methods; I don't think you're going to get the answer you're looking for here.

- Alan

[Iorek_Byrnison]

Copy protection schemes prevent the casual pirate.
Without CP, you could buy a game, install it on your comp, then pass it along to your friends.
However, hard core pirates aren't stopped by the CP schemes, hell, they aren't even slowed down any really.
In most cases a game can be found on torrent sites days or even a week before retail release.(along with the necessary cracks to get it to work)
So, the publishers insist on their idiotic-ass CP because in a sense it does in fact prevent piracy.
The reality is, it only winds up pissing off the consumer.(but, 99% of the game publishers really don't give a fuck about anything but the bottom line, so pissing off their customers means nothing to them)

So that's it? A war of attrition with no eye toward collateral damage? Wow, that's sad.

[Iorek_Byrnison]

Discussing piracy here here isn't frowned upon because of any moral or legal implications so much as that developers are members of the community and it's terribly rude. This argument makes sense to pretty much everybody.

My suggestion is to just drop it. Everything has already been said on the matter, EA is evil big surprise whoop-de-doo, we're treading water.

I understand that, Mr. S, which is why I tried a more diplomatic approach. As developers and members of the community one would think that they'd be interested in any and all input addressing the problem. If not, THAT'S what I don't understand. Oh, well.

Now, if someone would be kind enough to point me to the thread where this has all been previously and neatly resolved I'll thank you all for your measured and civil responses.

[TurinTur]

Copy protection schemes prevent the casual pirate.
Without CP, you could buy a game, install it on your comp, then pass it along to your friends.
However, hard core pirates aren't stopped by the CP schemes, hell, they aren't even slowed down any really.
In most cases a game can be found on torrent sites days or even a week before retail release.(along with the necessary cracks to get it to work)
So, the publishers insist on their idiotic-ass CP because in a sense it does in fact prevent piracy.
The reality is, it only winds up pissing off the consumer.(but, 99% of the game publishers really don't give a fuck about anything but the bottom line, so pissing off their customers means nothing to them)

This was true 7 or 8 years ago, when the casual piracy was to copy a cd from your friend / to rent a game and make a copy, and only the hardcore pirates used that thing called 'internet'. Right now in 2008, it's not true, now the casual piracy is to make double click in a torrent file, with crack included.

Even the most casual gamer, if he doesn't buy legit games, it's less casual in certain aspects, like using Daemon Tools to mount an image in a virtual drive.

[Alan Au]

Now, if someone would be kind enough to point me to the thread where this has all been previously and neatly resolved I'll thank you all for your measured and civil responses.The search function is broken, but Google works fairly well:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Aquartertothree.com+%22copy+protection%22&btnG=Google+Search

- Alan

[Alan Au]

So I went back and re-read some of those threads. I'll save you some time:

The question doesn't get answered. Instead people get riled up, and other people start skimming and misintepreting what was said, followed by some ad hominem attacks, and occasionally someone gets banned, and then Albert releases a new "who's who" chart. Then Tom calls us a bunch of yentas, and we go back to discussing whether or not games are art, and if anybody has recommendations for good DS games.

- Alan

[ZekeDMS]

And another rapid turnaround!

It's almost like Iorek craves gentle touching.

God, I missed QT3 this weekend. :)

[Charles]

OK, so I lied. It looks like this will come up again...

But now that I know the rules, let me first apologise for reopening the worm tin but the more I've thought about our previous exchange the more confused I've gotten. I understand that many here are professional games industy people, from the actual creative artists, through the pandering publishers and bottom-feeding "journalists," and that a very personal and protective vested interest exists in this area.

But, if this topic HAS already been done to death yet continues to rear its ugly head, whether by newcomers like myself or otherwise, then logic would dictate that it not only continues to be a problem but that no one is interested in learning from the experiences and testimonials to its problemness. (Sorry about that, Chief.)

So, without purposely ruffling the feathers of outrage again, and purely in the interest of furthering the intellectual process, I would like to see responses from said industry insiders -- or anyone who doesn't just want to flame my ass for asking -- as to the whys of piracy as directly related to their seemingly pointless and punitive copy-protection efforts.

So help me, I didn't start out as a pirate -- quite the contrary, actually -- but I was slowly made into one, one excrutiating irritation at a time. Every new release faced a gauntlet of Buy Or Download? criteria that, according to the Status Quo here, don't mean diddly. I mean, I'm just one guy who blindly stumbled aboard the Flying Dutchman after being clubbed senseless by things like StarForce; how many others does my single percent represent in those whose sole purpose is to stick it to you guys just because they can?

Please understand that this isn't an advocacy, an instigation or a confessional; I'd just like to see the relationship between game makers and game players back on a less combative and paranoid ground.

You know what would be cool? If Tom's vetting process weeded out people who can find some reason to justify not paying for games they play.

If you really want to stick it to the developers who use copy protection, you refrain from playing their games. Stealing it just makes you petty.

[ZekeDMS]

But then how can you complain about it on a forum, saying how it's full of bugs and keeps crashing?

[Iorek_Byrnison]

You know what would be cool? If Tom's vetting process weeded out people who can find some reason to justify not paying for games they play.

If you really want to stick it to the developers who use copy protection, you refrain from playing their games. Stealing it just makes you petty.

You know what would be cooler? If douchebags like you could stay on topic without relapsing into the tired old Electric Kool-Aid rhetoric.

This is exactly the type of response I deliberately tried to avoid by re-introducing the subject with a sincere and sensible preface. That you chose to ignore my attempt to keep this civil and plunged us back into accusatory name-calling makes you the petty one.

I apologize on your behalf.

[Kalle]

But then how can you praise it on a forum, saying how it doesnt stutter and launches in 10 seconds instead of three minutes

Seriously, copy protection causes it's very own brand of technical hangups ranging from impaired performance to crashes to the inability to start the game. All inflicted, of course, on paying customers. And removing the copy protection then tends to be the first step in making your software run without hangups.

[divorced]

You know what would be cooler? If douchebags like you could stay on topic without relapsing into the tired old Electric Kool-Aid rhetoric.

This is exactly the type of response I deliberately tried to avoid by re-introducing the subject with a sincere and sensible preface. That you chose to ignore my attempt to keep this civil and plunged us back into accusatory name-calling makes you the petty one.

I apologize on your behalf.

You admittedly steal videogames because oh poor you has to suffer through DRM stuff. How terrible for you. Still pretty much makes you an asshole. I like how you call him a douchebag (even though I doubt you know what one is) when you are the thief who proudly proclaims so even though you blaim society as a whole. Hmm, nodody's ever tried THAT one before...

[Bill Dungsroman]

You know what would be cooler? If douchebags like you could stay on topic without relapsing into the tired old Electric Kool-Aid rhetoric.

This is exactly the type of response I deliberately tried to avoid by re-introducing the subject with a sincere and sensible preface. That you chose to ignore my attempt to keep this civil and plunged us back into accusatory name-calling makes you the petty one.

I apologize on your behalf.

Wait where did Charles call you a name just now?


respectfully,

krise madsen

[madkevin]

You know what would be cooler? If douchebags like you could stay on topic without relapsing into the tired old Electric Kool-Aid rhetoric.

I have nothing to add, but I wanted to keep this quote because I had no idea Charles was advocating developers dose their customers with LSD.

[Charles]

You know what would be cooler? If douchebags like you could stay on topic without relapsing into the tired old Electric Kool-Aid rhetoric.

This is exactly the type of response I deliberately tried to avoid by re-introducing the subject with a sincere and sensible preface. That you chose to ignore my attempt to keep this civil and plunged us back into accusatory name-calling makes you the petty one.

I apologize on your behalf.

Hey, you wanted to hear from someone in the industry.

My view? If you play a game (even without paying for it) you are aiding that developer to continue doing what they do, because you add to the game's popularity.

The fact that you want to be able to justify your piracy doesn't mean it's not piracy and that you aren't being petty about it.

There's nothing sincere and sensible about playing something without paying for it. It's juvenile logic at best.

[Charles]

I have nothing to add, but I wanted to keep this quote because I had no idea Charles was advocating developers dose their customers with LSD.

If it would stop some of them from posting on the internet....

edit: though calling him a customer isn't exactly accurate, now, is it? Need to pay for something before you are a customer.

[cliffski]

What exactly do people DO who have such major problems with DRM? I have securom on my PC, and maybe starforce too, who knows, or cares. I've bought games from valve, CD games at retail, and ones that need online verification. I've got company of heroes and bioshock installed, and used to have Half Life 2 on my old machine.
I've never had any mysterious crashes, slowdowns or drive failures. Ever. I had problems when Bioshock first installed because their server was down or slow for a few hours, but I lived.
I played Bioshock for maybe 2 weeks, then lost interest. Amazingly, I didn't reformat and reinstall windows more than 3 times in that period.
I'm guessing a lot of the people who have issues with the technical aspects of DRM are running home built PCs with a mixmatch of drivers and installs of various debuggers, drive emulation stuff, probably an upgraded rather than freshly installed O/S, yada yada.
In other words, the same people who have crashes with PC games generally, due to totally bizzare combinations of drivers and software etc.

For every one web geek who has their PC crash due to copy protection, I reckon there are 1,000 who whine about it ruining their life on internet forums. As I recall, Bioshock and Company of heroes were pretty big sellers, despite 'teh evil' DRM.

[malkav11]

So these people (who are more numerous than you seem to think) should be left out in the cold because, gosh, those dirty pirates will...be completely unfazed? That is to say, okay, yes, they have more technical problems than on average, but why introduce entirely new vectors for glitches and problems that are of questionable utility?

And some of us like to come back to games we own later on, or, horrors, buy them years later and try to play them because we didn't have a chance at them originally. I'm still working on System Shock, myself. (the first one.)