Grand Theft Auto: Arrested [Archive] - Quarter To Three Forums

Lum

04-29-2008, 10:47 PM

So a couple of points:

* I figured Niko Belic was [spoiler nationality? Is that even necessary?] before the game shipped, they certainly dropped enough clues. For one thing, his first outfit makes him a dead ringer for this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Mashkov).

* I dunno, I enjoyed the cabaret sequences. You were in a sleazy dive cabaret, they were *supposed* to be bad. Of course, if the shows in Manhattan are as bad, well, then your point is taken. Similarly, the minigames I thought were pretty good, especially the pool game. It was a nice surprise and was actually pretty well done.

* Uh, the soundtrack is awesome. Dunno what to tell you except you're wrong! The sheer breadth of it alone is amazing, and they have some pretty good gems as well. Fer cryin out loud, the game opens with an awesome Ukrainian hair band anthem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTzL21__guo).

MattKeil

04-29-2008, 10:49 PM

But it's mostly disappointing for how it's clogged with so much of Rockstar's funny radio station stuff. Which, granted, is indeed funny, but Rockstar seems not to know what it's like to drive these days. Who doesn't drive listening to his own music instead of a radio station?

I know when I go carjacking on the way to a mob hit, I always bring my CD binder.

C'mon, man.

Adree

04-29-2008, 10:50 PM

I have to disagree, you can tell from many areas such as the gps and the much better gunplay that they have learned from Saint's Row. You don't recognize a lot of the music? Just what do you listen to?

And no mention of the Euphoria system?

Adree

04-29-2008, 10:52 PM

I should add one major complaint I do have is a good portion of the dialogue is missed if you don't have subtitles on.

Lum

04-29-2008, 10:55 PM

Sadly, though, the Jamaican's jah mon patois is left untranslated. Come on, it's as inpenetrable to me as Russian!

Adree

04-29-2008, 10:56 PM

I think thats the joke. The subtitles definitely help though.

tea1000

04-29-2008, 11:01 PM

I think the Eastern Promises comparison is fair because it shows that games have got to the point where they can have different audiences. Eastern Promises wasn't for everyone, but a certain section of the film audience loved it. A few more million people will probably like GTA, but that doesn't mean every gamer has to.
To me, the fact that its already had a plot twist that you care enough to write about already sets it above the ranks of those other games you mention.

Zuwadza

04-29-2008, 11:03 PM

I have to agree with you on the control issues Tom, combat feels kind of awkward sometimes. They may have learned some lessons from Crackdown and Saint's Row but not the right ones.

BobJustBob

04-29-2008, 11:09 PM

They're not Russian? I tried to sit through the first cutscene and failed; since then I've just been skipping them. All I know of the story comes from the cellphone and in-car conversation.

MattKeil

04-29-2008, 11:15 PM

They're not Russian? I tried to sit through the first cutscene and failed; since then I've just been skipping them. All I know of the story comes from the cellphone and in-car conversation.

Wow. Just wow.

Lum

04-29-2008, 11:17 PM

Sol Invictus

04-29-2008, 11:18 PM

Wow. Just wow.

That's the only time this phrase will ever be justifiable.

Tom Chick

04-29-2008, 11:23 PM

Lum, yeah, the Russian station is pretty cool. As for the overall soundtrack, I recognize a few tunes from going through the credits at the back of the manual, but not many of them. Which wasn't surprising in a lower profile game like Saints Row. But this is GTA4, man. Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a more expensive song selection. I'm also disappointed there's no classical channel. Have I just not found it yet?

Maybe the Bellic cousins' nationality isn't a spoiler, but listening to Nikko talk about his backstory has a lot more weight if you gradually realize where he's from. I guess his last name is probably a giveaway, although I think the two L's in Bellic might have thrown me. Anyway, it's one instance where I was glad not to have known anything about the game. When he opens up to Mikhail's wife, I felt the story had gradually earned the gravity for that kind of imagery.

Ooh, BJB, don't skip the cutscenes, man. Rockstar does a great job. Then again, you have notoriously weird taste, so maybe they won't do anything for you. :)

-Tom

(BTW, I don't mean to clog up the forum with yet another GTA thread, but I've avoided the other threads for fear of spoilers.)

MattN

04-29-2008, 11:26 PM

Thank God!! All this GTA dicksucking has left me feeling like I was the only one with control issues. The driving is decent when you are getting from point A to point B but when there is a chase and they are in an SUV and you are in a sudan, and they are taking turns at hight speed while you are spinning out of control or crashing into a wall is bullshit. Also the on foot controls leave a lot to be desired. I just don't understand why I liked crackdown so much, yet can't get into any GTA the same way.

MattKeil

04-29-2008, 11:30 PM

Thank God!! All this GTA dicksucking has left me feeling like I was the only one with control issues. The driving is decent when you are getting from point A to point B but when there is a chase and they are in an SUV and you are in a sudan, and they are taking turns at hight speed while you are spinning out of control or crashing into a wall is bullshit.

No, that would be you not being very good at driving. I'm not saying there's no learning curve, because there definitely is, but I can pull off honest to God Bullitt shit at this point.

tromik

04-29-2008, 11:32 PM

I agree with Tom for the most part, the controls do feel really loose at times, and they should have taken better notes from Saint's Row and Crackdown.

The only GTA game I ever finished (aside from the first) was LCS, because the missions were short and easy. I played GTA3 and VC on PC and always got stuck at the radio controlled helicopter missions. But I played them for hours just using the game as a sandbox - launching cars off ramps, driving motorcycles across rooftops, and launching buses off ramps (okay, so there was a lot of launching stuff off other stuff).

Then Saint's Row made it easier to complete the missions, and added the stuff awesome little things like insurance fraud. And Crackdown was the ultimate sandbox game, especially with the Keys to the City DLC.

So while I'll most likely finish GTA4 and dabble in the multiplayer, I don't think I'll be using it as my go to sandbox game a month from now, sadly.

Still, it does have a lot going for it, and at the moment I am in that "one more mission" phase.

Soldats

04-29-2008, 11:42 PM

I agree with most of your points Tom, but I'm still finding myself enjoying the game a whole lot. Maybe it's because I never really got into GTA3 beyond trying to set up police chases, and I never touched Vice City or San Andreas for more than 15 minutes. I really like Niko as a character and I'm always rooting for him and his cousin; the game almost feels like an Eddie Murphy-less version of "Coming to America". This is the first GTA game where I've actually tried to follow the story missions instead of just going off on a rampage. I've even tried to avoid killing people on my dates!

There have been moments where I've cursed the game for its wretched combat/driving/pool mini-game, but then something like the following happens:

1. Niko & Roman do some male bonding at Vlad's bar.
2. They walk out piss drunk, but instead of hailing a cab, Niko tries to drive them home.
3. Cops come after them for driving under the influence.
4. Car flips over, Niko bails out while Roman is hurt in the ensuing explosion and gets taken to the hospital.
5. Niko jacks another car and finally ditches the cops, then gets a call from Roman asking for a ride from the hospital.

Unplanned sequences like this have already happened a few times in just the five and a half hours I've put in, and they totally make the game for me.

BobJustBob

04-30-2008, 12:17 AM

Ooh, BJB, don't skip the cutscenes, man. Rockstar does a great job. Then again, you have notoriously weird taste, so maybe they won't do anything for you. :)

Well, it's a game. So they could be showing me Casablanca and I'd still be pissed off at the interruption.

But what I watched of the intro and the first cutscene and what little else I've not skipped, I'm not missing much.

BobJustBob

04-30-2008, 12:31 AM

Well, you could concievably ditch the plot entirely, just hijack cars and punch random people in the face. That's certainly valid!

(Though you do miss out on gun shops, the joy of driving over a cop car with a Hummer, and ... uh... 2/3 of the city.)

Exactly. The missions in GTA games have always been wretched and they're still wretched, but they're the gamer tax you have to work through to unlock the real game.

Sarkus

04-30-2008, 01:03 AM

Tom's review and the bug filled impressions that Bill has on Dubious Quality make me think the game is "half baked" in the sense of needing more time to work out all the bugs. I wonder if Take 2's situation had anything to do with it.

Hans Lauring

04-30-2008, 01:06 AM

What situation and what bugs?

It's a very polished game and Tom just disagrees with some of Rockstars choices (like 200 songs that he doesn't care for).

Squee

04-30-2008, 01:09 AM

Kind of a half-assed solution for the lack of a player radio station, but doesn't the 360 have a music player that can run during games by hitting the guide button or... Whatever the middle button is called? If you absolutely hate the in-game music, that would probably work well enough. Just need to pause it during cutscenes and such.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 01:11 AM

GTA4 is an overall good game and yet I still find myself disappointed by it for many of the same reasons as Tom. It just isn't as good as I was expecting based on the reviews and the anticipation of it being the first GTA on now-current gen consoles.

In addition to Tom's list of issues (and I think he went easy on some things, the minigames aren't just meh, they are downright horrible. Completely unfun! Worse than a lot of shitty Flash implementions I've seen of the same games), one of the most surprising things about GTA4 to me is some of the things that have always existed in GTA games but they haven't bothered to fix.

Example: When you come out of a building after a reload and there isn't a goddamn single car or person in sight for miles for a while no matter the time of day. I suppose that happens for a reason that is semi-valid (need time to stream in the car/people geometry, etc) but there are many ways you can handle that situation that don't involve the city being a ghost town for up to a minute.

Another example: Browsing clothes and other items at stores. Watching the same damn 10 second animation every time you try on a new pair of sunglasses is MUCH WORSE THAN REAL SHOPPING. And I hate real shopping!

Another example: Completely inconsistent breakability of things. When I went to collect the protection money in Vlad's first mission it told me to break the window with something. I spent like 5 minutes trying to break the door (which is made of glass and through which I was speaking with the man inside) down with everything from a car to a knife to a gun, I ran around trying to pick up the stray boxes and trashcans in the area figuring maybe I was supposed to use those (turns out you can't pick them up)). Eventually I try the window next to the door (made of glass, just like the door) and even my fist can break those.... wait, so when they said WINDOW, they meant WINDOW, and not WINDOWED DOOR... AHHH!! how very 1990s adventure gamey!

Misc:

I like the car physics a lot less in this one than any of the previous ones, let alone other GTA-ish games. You can call me out all you want for not being good at driving in GTA4 and whip out your GTA4 driving e-peen, but driving was simply more fun in the older GTAs. Part of this is the car physics, part of this is simply that there doesn't seem to be nearly as much world geometry that exists soley for the purpose of doing insane stunts off of it (another victim of making the game more 'realistic'?). And the on-foot controls are just horrible. Nico moves way too slow by default and the button-mash sprint is so much worse than just holding down a sprint button, because it makes it difficult to sprint while doing anything else, which wasn't a problem in the earlier games. Also the forced-slow-walk-when-talking thing was dumb in Gears of War, even dumber here. Why do I have to walk at 1mph when I'm talking on the cellphone?

So, yeah. GTA4 is a good game, but I just don't understand the overwhelming praise it is getting.

Mordrak

04-30-2008, 01:11 AM

But Rockstar is still making Grand Theft Auto 3 after people like Volition and Realtime Worlds have taken Rockstar's own formula and dramatically improved it. Where are the awesomely chaotic street battles, the dizzying vistas, the thrill of exploration, the streamlined RPG progression, the car collection subgame, and the personal customization? And where is my dang media players so I can listen to my own music?

Keep it up Tom! I need the strength of will to wait a few months in case of a PC announcement. Haha.

But, I really don't see what's so great about Saint's Row. Admittedly I haven't played it, but the trailer for Saint's Row 2 makes it look so garish and a city that looks like it was artificially constructed rather developed over time.

I think I'll miss some of the character customization of San Andreas, once I get around to actually playing it.

And the on-foot controls are just horrible. Nico moves way too slow by default and the button-mash sprint is so much worse than just holding down a sprint button, because it makes it difficult to sprint while doing anything else, which wasn't a problem in the earlier games.

Why is this a problem in GTA4 and not the other games? I've seen this complaint before. I just finished San Andreas and the tapping to sprint is really effective because it adds urgency to on foot escapes by tying the characters endurance partially to my thumb tapping endurance. It's just enough physicality to make it interesting, but not enough to be annoying (at least to me).

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 01:22 AM

Why is this a problem in GTA4 and not the other games? I've seen this complaint before. I just finished San Andreas and the tapping to sprint is really effective because it adds urgency to on foot escapes by tying the characters endurance partially to my thumb tapping endurance. It's just enough physicality to make it interesting, but not enough to be annoying (at least to me).

The movement speed in GTA4 is just across the board slower (well, to be fair, I haven't measured it and haven't played any of the GTA3 games in a while, but it FEELS a fuck-of-a-lot slower than I remember), so super sprint in GTA4 is like just basic sprint in the older games, you pretty much have to be slamming the button down while running to be moving fast enough for my liking (and I'm talking about just basic getting around speed, not running-from-a-flaming-wreck speed), whereas in the earlier games I almost never bothered with the tap-sprint and would just use the hold-button-down sprint and that was fast enough for most situations.

Mordrak

04-30-2008, 01:24 AM

The movement speed in GTA4 is just across the board slower (well, to be fair, I haven't measured it and haven't played any of the GTA3 games in a while, but it FEELS a fuck-of-a-lot slower than I remember), so super sprint in GTA4 is like just basic sprint in the older games, you pretty much have to be slamming the button down while running to be moving fast enough for my liking, whereas in the earlier games I almost never bothered with the tap-sprint and would just use the hold-button-down sprint and that was fast enough.

Ahh, gotcha. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

JetLagger

04-30-2008, 01:36 AM

The music is also disappointing, partly because the song list is so…so…I don't know, full of stuff I don't know or don't care about.

I wouldn't call it disappointing, it does have the Stooges "I wanna be your dog". I do have an issue with the Tuff Gong station though, all Marley? How about mixing it up a bit with some Tosh, Steel Pulse, Inner Circle, anything from "The Harder They Come" soundtrack by Jimmy Cliff or maybe even some Burning Spear (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejEXr_qczk). There's more reggae music out there then just dreadlock rasta Marley.

-Tim

Wendelius

04-30-2008, 01:44 AM

I do have an issue with the Tuff Gong station though, all Marley?

I love that station. It's just so cool driving through the city at night (even better in the rain) listening to Bob Marley. Doesn't make me want to punch people in the face and steal their cars but that's OK. :)

Wendy

JetLagger

04-30-2008, 02:00 AM

I love that station. It's just so cool driving through the city at night (even better in the rain) listening to Bob Marley.

Don't get me wrong, I like Marley as well :) I was just hoping for a more diverse selection. I also enjoy listening to the smoother jams at night, while in the day it's all about rock/rap aggression and smashing people out of my way while I do my missions.

-Tim

Sarkus

04-30-2008, 02:03 AM

What situation and what bugs?

It's a very polished game and Tom just disagrees with some of Rockstars choices (like 200 songs that he doesn't care for).

Bill's impressions don't sound like a polished game to me. He specifically cites throwing a brick through a window and having the collision detection fail. He talks about missions where things just stall as the game waits for the play to trip the next cutscene. Just read his piece. And it's not like the impression threads here on QT3 are free of bug reports and other issues. Not game breakers, necessarily, but minor things that you'd expect a polished game to have resolved.

Mrenda

04-30-2008, 02:15 AM

And it's not like the impression threads here on QT3 are free of bug reports and other issues. Not game breakers, necessarily, but minor things that you'd expect a polished game to have resolved.

A lot of these expectations have come from reviews. What I've read from most of the gaming press has only furthered my mistrust of the reviewers and the websites and magazines they write from. I can understand some of the differences in gameplay, Rockstar made a decision, and I can understand the graphical glitches, Rockstar released an imperfect game. What gets to me is that these haven't been reported, and in the few cases where they have they've been massively downplayed. Except for now, where the post launch opinions are coming out. Are the press so disconnected from what the players think?

RichardC

04-30-2008, 02:16 AM

GTA4 is an overall good game and yet I still find myself disappointed by it for many of the same reasons as Tom. It just isn't as good as I was expecting based on the reviews and the anticipation of it being the first GTA on now-current gen consoles.

After the first evening, I absolutely adore the city design - the view from the first bridge at night is just amazing - and a lot of the extras, like the phone and dating system, but the missions have been really, really boring. I get that they're mostly tutorials for various things, but it doesn't bode well to feel like it's snapping right back to original GTA3 every time one of them starts. What? I can't refuse Vlad's latest stupid shit? I have to drive THIS car to get to THIS place on THIS route? Oh god! The graphics seems really, really blurry on my TV as well - even the close-up stuff makes my eyes water a little.

The funniest thing I've found so far is that despite Roman not being able to go for more than five seconds without mentioning breasts, his idea of a truly awesome evening is to go slather his guts out at a Bikini Bar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BikiniBar). I know the situation is a bit different in the US, but this is really, really silly over here in Europeland. Either do nudity or don't bother doing stripclubs. Oh, Mallorie. You're far too good for him...

Adree

04-30-2008, 02:33 AM

Bill's impressions don't sound like a polished game to me. He specifically cites throwing a brick through a window and having the collision detection fail. He talks about missions where things just stall as the game waits for the play to trip the next cutscene. Just read his piece. And it's not like the impression threads here on QT3 are free of bug reports and other issues. Not game breakers, necessarily, but minor things that you'd expect a polished game to have resolved.

Please show me one game that has no minor bugs.

mtkafka

04-30-2008, 02:35 AM

Yah expectations are not met so far with me, as a GTA game, (VERY HIGH EXPECTATIONS) but its still good to have Rockstar making a game.... I'm more enamored with the 'watching TV' aspect... the little details in the GTA series have always did it for me. But so far there's a more 'on the rails' feel to the game so far. Saint's Row didn't feel that way and was VERY open right from the start. Still I'm only about 15 missions in...but the missions are nothing compared to the first obligatory intro missions from the first three 3d gta's.

I'm not writing this game off yet. It still definitely is worth the 60 bux I paid. The only highlight compared to other GTA's is the dating simulator... which can be funner i suppose.

And yah, so far the radio stations kinda generic GTA, was expecting more 'new' stuff... like some neo emo station... it is 2008. Couldn't they have put a few extra millions and got some songs from some newer semi popular bands? Rock Star did! oh well.

overall though, I like it so far... a 4/5 type rating. its GTAIV, looks polished, and does still have that feel that only GTA has... so even if it isn't as OMFG awesome as I expected from the get go.. it still delivers. I like the immigrant aspect and the main chars somewhat shady Chechnyan/Russian? military type past.

etc

KieronGillen

04-30-2008, 02:43 AM

I've just found the Sisters Dominion/Mother Russia is on the GTA4 soundtrack. Since Sisters was the soundtrack of the most GTA-esque moments of recent times, I can only approve.

KG

MattN

04-30-2008, 02:56 AM

A lot of these expectations have come from reviews. What I've read from most of the gaming press has only furthered my mistrust of the reviewers and the websites and magazines they write from. I can understand some of the differences in gameplay, Rockstar made a decision, and I can understand the graphical glitches, Rockstar released an imperfect game. What gets to me is that these haven't been reported, and in the few cases where they have they've been massively downplayed. Except for now, where the post launch opinions are coming out. Are the press so disconnected from what the players think?
I think its just that they have some sort of inner GTA fanboy willing to neglect all the flaws exist, or thinking a control problem is an issue with them, not the game, cause after all "ITS GTA BITCHES." Also the fact that it was reviewed in one of those review junkets or whatever the hell those are called, which I'm sure effects a score.

gamadict

04-30-2008, 03:22 AM

I think the soundtrack in GTA3 was decidedly superior, which is the one I'd compare it to since the other two are mostly just period compilations, and didn't have a ton of widely-known tracks. Much of the time in 4, I'm flipping through the stations trying to find something decent.

I'd definitely agree with those not seeing this as a 10/10 or whatever game. Through 10 or 11 hours of playing/watching other people play, the missions have yet to really pick up steam. They still feel like tutorials 20 missions in, often telling you how to perform actions that you long ago picked up through the course of play. The police chases also don't feel as intense to me, certainly not at 3 stars which is really the max you're going to get without camping out somewhere and consciously massacring cops. Even at 6 stars after venturing into the off-limits boroughs, it seems like the cops just kind of lose track of me(I've already picked up the 'One Man Army' achievement, though about half of that time was cruising around the subway).

Most of the new stuff they added(aiming, cell phone, simple fighting system) works really well and addressed major problems with the older games. The social system seems pretty half-baked though. So far it consist of doing random, mostly boring side missions, basically just driving people to places under no opposition, until you unlock whatever abilities that character has. On that note, do the girlfriends ever unlock anything? I can't see what else I can do with Michelle and I can't really see keeping up with her since the dates are so repetitive. They seem to be a vehicle for delivering dialogue/backstory and those bits are pretty cool, but I think I'd rather just have a cell phone conversation or something at this point

It's still fun to tear around the city on a motorcycle looking for stuff to jump off of and causing random mayhem. There's definitely a ton of stuff and the production values are sky high. It's just that the core designed game isn't that hot at first blush, and even the freeform stuff is starting to look a bit soft in the face of stuff like Crackdown(or even last-gen stuff like Mercenaries). Of course, the GTA games were considered really awesome last gen, and if you take that and fix all of the major mechanical problems then I can see how you'd get universal high praise. So it's probably more that I didn't consider the GTA games, though pretty good, to be the cream and read the gushing as this one being different rather then adding some more good stuff to what everyone already loved

Sam Jones

04-30-2008, 03:45 AM

I've just found the Sisters Dominion/Mother Russia is on the GTA4 soundtrack. Since Sisters was the soundtrack of the most GTA-esque moments of recent times, I can only approve.

KG

That was the first song playing on the radio upon arrival at Roman's apartment for me. As a *huge* Sisters fan, I also endorse this choice.

Jim Preston

04-30-2008, 03:50 AM

've spent too much of my time fumbling with combat. I've died by missed jumps, by ladder, by getting stuck in cover, by getting punched after jostling someone on the way into the Cluckin' Bell...Tom's mini-review has been my exact experience as well. Left work early, made a sandwich and sat down to be blown away, and so far it's been good but not great. I took Michelle bowling and while were walking back to the car I was going down some steps and apparently walked on to a trashcan and then fell off and onto a cop who was walking by. The game interpreted this as assault, the cop pulled out his gun and just started screaming at me not to move while he plugged me full of holes. Sure enough, I failed the date and had to replay the tedious bowling game (well, I didn't have to, but I wanted to advance the dating arc).

I haven't found any of the jumps yet, all the mini-game and shopping mechanics strike me as clunky, and apparently there's no collecting, you just shoot pigeons, but I could certainly be wrong about that.

Hey, GTA4, you're M-rated. You just showed me a close-up of a guy getting shot through the face. But there's nary a nipple to be seen?

What's even more surprising is that they truly did earn that M rating for "Strong Sexual Content," (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O51l7S7Sx3g#) yet they don't want to offend anyone by having topless strippers. Weird.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 03:52 AM

In my time playing it, I don't get the sense that GTA4 is particularly buggy, it just has the same sort of odd glitches from time to time that any game with a relatively complex physics engine tends to have.

The surprisingly unpolished part of GTA4 are things like the overall feel of the camera/control system (not the worst I've seen, but not particularly great either) and the game design on the minigames (darts, pool, bowling, etc). I realize these minigames aren't part of the primary game path or anything and so I don't expect them to be the best implementation of darts, pool, bowling, etc I've ever seen, but it would be nice if they weren't all pretty much the worst, especially since you're semi-forced to do them to progress the social/dating stuff.

Unicorn McGriddle

04-30-2008, 03:53 AM

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 04:03 AM

The game interpreted this as assault, the cop pulled out his gun and just started screaming at me not to move while he plugged me full of holes.

Nearly the same thing happened to me on my first date, except it wasn't a cop I bumped into but some irate civilian that I barely bumped into while walking along the boardwalk back to the car. The dude went all aggro after I bumped into him which put me automatically into fighting mode and then Michelle got "scared off" and the date went into failure state.

... clunky ...

That's pretty much how I'd describe most of what they added into GTA4 that wasn't in the series before... clunky. It is still GTA under that clunkiness and that makes it better than most games out there and I'm really looking forward to enjoying some multiplayer on it, but my honest opinion as of now is the game is a bit of a let down.

Omniscia

04-30-2008, 04:23 AM

For whatever reason -- maybe it's simply psychological -- I find the cars handle better if I'm driving from that first-person, behind-the-wheel camera angle. I can actually jerk the stick to the right to avoid a collision without the car going into a spin, unlike with the other angles.

SRFisher

04-30-2008, 05:54 AM

Add me to the "meh" crowd. The graphics are great, the GPS system is fantastic, and I like the soundtrack way more than Tom, but the game feels... empty. Sluggish and empty.

I played for about 5 hours last night -- an hour of missions, and 3 or 4 of general wandering. In that time in Liberty City Stories and Vice City Stories, I would have found a half dozen side missions to play -- the rail shooter off the back of a scooter, Rampage missions, hidden packages, the car salesman, fast food delivery... and that's not even counting standard vehicle missions for taxis, ambulances, fire engines, and cop cars.

In GTA IV, my grand discovery after 4 hours of wandering was a single Unique Jump, which I failed. Um, wow? Maybe you have to get farther in the scripted missions to unlock them (maybe a new variation on collection goals?), but come on -- Roman owns a taxi and you can't even do taxi missions? Yeah, there's dates with Michelle and Roman, but honestly, the dating side missions were one of my least favourite parts of GTA: SA. I'm feeling distinctly underwhelmed.

RichardC

04-30-2008, 05:56 AM

Roman owns a taxi and you can't even do taxi missions?

I got a call from him after a few missions to say that if I ever want a fare, just drop on by.

Brian Rucker

04-30-2008, 06:31 AM

A few asides:

When I heard "Dominion" playing on the radio in the apartment I was thrilled - until I realized this seemed to be an oldies/classic rock station. Then I felt sad.

Definitely agree with the idea that driving in first person seems to make the car handle better. Or at least I can figure out what I'm doing more intuitively - probably because I don't have to futz as much with those troubling camera controls. However, the first person view just feels a bit odd - it's like my eyeballs are mounted just outside the windshield rather than being, y'know, inside the car! Am I missing something there? How would I use a gun with that PoV?

And for me, the movie analogy so far, is "The Guru". Immigrant, with high hopes - if not as dark a past, gets conned into coming to New York by his fast talking cousin who's lying about how well he's doing. Is it just me?

Edit: I may be alone but I like the realistic feel of the world much more than the cartoonish one before. But the setting does feel kind of schitzo when you've got this interesting character and his cousin surrounded by such a beautifully realized world - and then just a steady stream of, not as clever as I remember it, wanna-be South Park humor confusing the aesthetic. Maybe it's a case of trying to please too many different audiences with the same game?

WarrenM

04-30-2008, 06:42 AM

What situation and what bugs?
I agree. I played for a good 5 hours last night and didn't see a single glitch. What bugs? I'm not trying to say it doesn't have any but I just haven't seen them yet.

ElGuapo

04-30-2008, 06:49 AM

A point about Tom's thoughts. This game got an M-rating. It has loads of violence. It deals with loads of sexual innuendo. Every commentator and newscaster and pundit from here to eternity is going to blast it for its content. So why put pasties on nipples? Why curtail the sexual content/nudity? Why not show a bit more complexity out of the female characters? Roman is a huge juvenile misogynistic asshole but has Nico to counter him.

I don't get this. Ultra violence but no nudity. Everyone is going to criticize you for it anyway, whether it's there or not. The ESRB just assumed it was there. So why be cowards about it?

Mordrak

04-30-2008, 06:51 AM

ProStyle

04-30-2008, 06:54 AM

I do have an issue with the Tuff Gong station though, all Marley? How about mixing it up a bit with some Tosh, Steel Pulse, Inner Circle, anything from "The Harder They Come" soundtrack by Jimmy Cliff or maybe even some Burning Spear (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejEXr_qczk).

Scientist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientist_Rids_the_World_of_the_Evil_Curse_of_the_ Vampires) is a tough act to follow when it comes down to it. One of my favorite dub albums, with such an irreverent aesthetic that fits the GTA universe like a glove. I figured they'd go for some more Scientist, Mad Professor or at least some Lee Perry based on their previous selection. Ahh well, all good ideas, but I think Marley is the easiest to identify so they figured it'd wrap it up well enough.

Good writeup Tom, a little more into the meat and bones of the mechanics and a little less like every other 10 point puff piece I've seen all week.

WarrenM

04-30-2008, 06:56 AM

In GTA IV, my grand discovery after 4 hours of wandering was a single Unique Jump, which I failed. Um, wow?
It's a sandbox game and you've only played for 4 hours. Maybe give it a little time and unlock some stuff before giving up.

ElGuapo

04-30-2008, 06:56 AM

You don't think that would put it in AO territory?

A nipple?

Fugitive

04-30-2008, 06:59 AM

You don't think that would put it in AO territory?
God of War got away with it, like Tom noted, but yeah it's possible that the combination of realistic violence (GoW is arguably more like cartoonish fantasy violence) and nudity would have pushed it over the line into AO.

WarrenM

04-30-2008, 07:00 AM

A nipple?
You seriously don't think a nipple would move an already incredibly violent game into AO territory in America? Remember the super bowl?

Mordrak

04-30-2008, 07:00 AM

A nipple?

A nipple in conjuction with some of the stipper clips I've seen, sure. I didn't play God of War, but the GTAIV scenes seem pretty extensive by videogame standards (though not by movie standards). The ESRB is a strange beast. I think Conan (the MMO) finally got a M rating after an appeal to keep the nipples and there's no lap dancing mini-games to my knowledge in that.

You seriously don't think a nipple would move an already incredibly violent game into AO territory in America? Remember the super bowl?

Yeah. And technically, we didn't even see a nipple. Wasn't it some like nipple cover jewelry or something? Seriously, we need an elightenment in this country. When it comes to sex, we're all screwed in the head. I like to screw elsewhere thank you very much.

Jazar

04-30-2008, 07:08 AM

Who cares if the game has nips or not? It is a fairly trite point of contention. It's not like the game models are gorgeous enough to warrant the extra smut.

The game is getting rave reviews because those people that have finished the game know that it blows away the competition. If you think, after an hour in, that they are still teaching you the ropes it's only because the game is that damn huge. Saints Row? Saints Row is the In the Name of the King to GTA4's LOTR. Sure you get to the action and AAA star power like Reynolds & Busey a lot quicker but it doesn't have staying power that a true title with quality has.

I will give GTA4 criticism from what little I've played. It does play too similarly to the older games. The way the initial missions are structured. The way the islands are locked off. I was hoping that this time, things truly would be different. Still, the city, the graphics, the characters, the game is really fucking amazing.

Mordrak

04-30-2008, 07:12 AM

I will give GTA4 criticism from what little I've played. It does play too similarly to the older games. The way the initial missions are structured. The way the islands are locked off. I was hoping that this time, things truly would be different. Still, the city, the graphics, the characters, the game is really fucking amazing.

I'm playing the games backwards (I'm on Vice City now) and the improvement between VC and SA is considerable. I can only imagine at what they will tighten up between GTAIV and whatever their next game will be. Hopefully they'll take some of the constructive criticism as well.

RichardC

04-30-2008, 07:13 AM

You don't think that would put it in AO territory?

Not over here it wouldn't. It's rated 18. They'd be fine.

It's not like the game models are gorgeous enough to warrant the extra smut.

That's not the issue. The equivalent situation is (as has happened here on a few games over the years) giving the enemies green blood when you shoot them. It's not about the lack of nudity, so much as how silly it is given the context of the game and the setting. And it's especially noticeable when Roman spends the entire first couple of hours of the game droning on and on about pretty much nothing else.

thamer

04-30-2008, 07:17 AM

I bet Rockstar isn't happy about the comparisons with Saints Row. That game has come up in enough articles and posts about GTA IV to show that SR certainly earned its spot next to it.

Moore

04-30-2008, 07:29 AM

In the same way redneck rampage was just like doom 3, sure.

Dave Long

04-30-2008, 07:39 AM

Nearly the same thing happened to me on my first date, except it wasn't a cop I bumped into but some irate civilian that I barely bumped into while walking along the boardwalk back to the car. The dude went all aggro after I bumped into him which put me automatically into fighting mode and then Michelle got "scared off" and the date went into failure state.

That's pretty much how I'd describe most of what they added into GTA4 that wasn't in the series before... clunky. It is still GTA under that clunkiness and that makes it better than most games out there and I'm really looking forward to enjoying some multiplayer on it, but my honest opinion as of now is the game is a bit of a let down.
Here's my date story... it wasn't a date ender, but it was pretty hilarious to watch. After having been thoroughly unimpressed with the bowling "simulation" (Jesus... League Bowling from 1989 is a million times better), Michelle and I get a little too close together while walking down the steps to the car. She gets her foot tangled with Niko's and ends up taking a huge spill... rolling down the steps and landing in a heap at the bottom. Pretty sure she was grunting and cussing all the way. I was looking for the "laugh button" because it was just ridiculous to watch! Of course she gets up and just walks to the car like nothing happened. /me thinks "Yeah, this is a typical videogame."

I was mildly disappointed when I tried opening the car door from her side hoping Niko would be a gentleman and let her get in first, closing the door behind her, but no dice. He runs around the other side and they both get in on their own. :(

I need to play it more before saying Tom is exactly right, but he basically said all the same things I did in my first post about the game last night, so I guess I wasn't too far off? :/

unbongwah

04-30-2008, 07:42 AM

. . . isn't it conspicuous when women are all portrayed as strippers, prostitutes, or speed bumps on the way to sex?
"GTA: Still Nuthin' But Bitches `n Hos!"

Way to raise the bar, Rockstar.

I guess I need to date more women. Maybe one of them unlocks better weapons or a better map.
When I read that, I actually had to pause a moment to consider if you meant in GTA or IRL.

Actually, I'm still not sure.

You seriously don't think a nipple would move an already incredibly violent game into AO territory in America?
I'll just note that the recent Conan console game, which is pretty gory, has Conan rescuing chained nubile topless damsels in distress who utter incredibly lame "sex-ah!" come-ons like "Crush me with your love!" when freed, with is both eye-rollingly and giggle-inducingly bad.

Of course, Conan was probably desperate for the merest fraction of the attention and notoriety of GTA. Post-Hot Coffee, I'm not too startled Rockstar is a bit skittish about America's tolerance for nudie bits.

Fozzle

04-30-2008, 07:45 AM

In the same way redneck rampage was just like doom 3, sure.
geet off mah layund!!

This may be a little thing, but the subtle affect is nice. I like how the exposition in the game isn't all in the cut scenes. You learn a lot about motives and characters while you are driving and walking, etc. It isn't like the old formula where you had cut-scene time(known as bio/drink time) then game time, then cut-scene, and so on. Even Bob gets a bit of character depth just from this mechanic. Plus it keeps the "KOSMOS length" cut-scenes to a minimum, at least so far...

The driving does feel awfully loose, but you can get really good at drifting corners relatively quickly if you do a lot of offensive driving through town. I don't think its the be-all end all mecca of video gaming like reviewers have led us to believe. But, I didn't do Crackdown or Saint's Row, so this is a noticeable improvement to me over GTA3.

Shieldwolf

04-30-2008, 07:46 AM

BDGE

04-30-2008, 08:09 AM

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but can someone kindly describe what Volition did with Saint's Row that further improved on the open-world design?(Or what makes it get mentioned everytime this genre is discussed?) I've only really read Tom's 'Quarterlies' blurb of it a few years ago, but I'm so lost whenever it gets a comparison credit. What did it do so right exactly?

Oh and having recently struggled through much of San Andreas recently, it was very disturbing how far the quality level of the game seemed to dip once you left the confines of South Central Los Santos. Just as I was making a name for myself, carving out my piece of the map and spreading my colors, upgrading my skills and starting to finally learn my way around the seedy ghetto; the game rips -everything- away from me.

It plops me into the middle of some foreign land that stretches on for eternity, removes any and all sense of exploration and progression structure(missions become rigid and forced - race twice in a row, perform these robberies back-to-back) and any and all ancilliary activites are gone for a good many hours. The narrative tone dips tremendously too, the gangsta vibe was well established and handled creatively in the early-goings, but that attitude doesn't work as well when dealing with David Cross' mumbling nerd ruminations, or the freaking Chinese Triads! Packing up my car with a bunch of hippies, geeks, and surfer bro's on one particular mission reached a level of disconnect and silliness that stole away my care to push on.

But this is about GTA4. I love GTA4 so far. I love Niko and Roman and even that scumbag Vlad in ways that San Andreas makes NPC interactions feel like a parody to this brilliant setup.

But I still want to know more about Saints Row!

BDGE

04-30-2008, 08:14 AM

I do have to say the game has some serious problems. The biggest one for me is on Projection TVs displaying 1080i. I can't read the hints that pop up and I can't see my star rating or cash. Also, why is it so hard to see what's on your cell phone? I've tried adjusting the display. Also, the mp is not as easy to set up as reviews made it out to be. I was able to set up a game, but When I started a party. We could figure out how to migrate to a particular game type without losing everyone in the party.

Yea, something is either wrong with my TV or the game. My ammo count and money indicators are cut off on the edge of the screen, not to mention that everything is so tiny I am squinting merely feet away from a 36" set. Icons on the minimap are a humorous joke. I need to pretty much pause constantly to see where everything is. Just way too small otherwise.

forgeforsaken

04-30-2008, 08:20 AM

Erik

04-30-2008, 08:24 AM

Man, Tom is crazy. I can't remember the last game where not only am I not buttoning through the cutscenes as fast as possible, I'm actually looking forward to them. Well, okay, God Hand. But before that? No memory! It may not have ever happened except for when it happened in Giants: Citizen Kabuto. And the soundtrack? It's fine. I think maybe it's terrific. Look, I like Saints Row more than everyone on this board. Combined. And also Crackdown, though I'm willing to admit that I might be Crackdown fan number eleven or twelve. But, c'mon for chrissake. I mean, jee-zus.

I *will* give Saints Row two things:

-The in-car aiming and shooting is better in SR. Not sure why Rockstar didn't just go with their system. Holding that left bumper is a big pain in the ass.

-Darts is not a suitable replacement for Insurance Fraud. Saints Row has the best side missions of any sandbox game. So far, six hours in, that's the area most lacking in GTA4.

Both of those complaints are semi-major. For all I know, though, the side missions will open up as I progress. Though I doubt they're gonna reach SR levels of greatness. Though I'm not sure why I doubt that. Though I still do.

As far as the nipples go, maybe the designers don't think nipples are attractive. Because they're not really if you've ever been in the unfortunate position of looking at one close up. And as far the larger issue of the person surrounding the nipple, I've got a theory that explains everything: Maybe the guys at Rockstar just don't like women. Personally and IRL, I got no beef with women. Heck, I like em so much I married one when I could have simply taken the path of least resistance and married another man. But I'm not gonna presume to impose my value system on Rockstar. It's like in Tom's favorite movie Land of the Dead: Who are we to judge their zombie lifestyle? Speaking of which, Tom's favorite movie is Land of the Dead.

ElGuapo

04-30-2008, 08:33 AM

What Saint's Row did wrong: Juvenile and ridiculous theme. Life in the ghetto as portayed by frat boys who have listened to too much Slim Shady.

* Multiplayer was horribly buggy, laggy, and awful.

* Quality of writing not near the GTA series. Passable, but GTA series is much better.

What Saint's Row did right: Everything else.

* Driving was tight, controllable, fun. Physics of cars and crashes was fun. You could be ejected out of your windshield and others could get ejected out of theirs (pretty rare).

* You could use the left stick to drive (this includes accelerate and decelerate) and use the normal fire button to shoot. This meant you could shoot almost 360 degrees around your car (only with one handed weapons). If you tried to shoot say, behind you to your right, it would blow out your own windows. Driving and shooting was generally perfect. When in the passenger seat you could use any weapon.

* GPS/routte in car (IV copied this). Also worked on foot.

* Shooting on foot was like Mercenaries. Third person but it worked perfectly. No zoom though. I hear SR2 will have an over the shoulder zoom ala most third person shooters (including IV). Lots of good indoor missions too.

* MP3 player on you at all times so you could listen to any in game radio track/mp3. In the car or on foot. All were available for purchase from a record store. Some GREAT selections. Many great hip-hop and rap songs, plus tons and tons of opera and classical. Even had Bossa Nova!

* Lots of fun side missions. One where you racked up insurance fraud by falling in front of cars or crashing your car into others. Mayhem where you just destroyed stuff. Drug dealing protection, escorts, lots of stuff. Tagging and hidden item collection from GTAIII/GTA SA. Hitman missions. Many more.

* Recruitable men (and women!)/homies. Take up to what, 3 at a time? Also you could call "homies" on your cell phone and they'd show up to you with a vehicle and armed. Same thing with dialing 911 got you an ambulance (I think IV copied this) and you could also dial cabs.

* Territory control similar, but not exactly like, GTA:SA. Take neighborhoods by taking out customized strongholds. Fight pushbacks against neighborhoods under siege. Earn money from all this.

* Cars stayed in your garage forever. You could have at least 50 (maybe more?) cars in your garage. Most cars fully customizable, so you could spend money getting the kind of car you wanted then save it. Novel!

* Lots of character customization. Even after you started the game (plastic surgery and barbers) Entire looks, plus tons of wardrobe. Also, wardrobe change was instantaneous, no retarded 10 second animation while it loaded.

* Restart mission as soon as you failed it (GTA IV uses this now).

* Getting killed or busted ONLY costs you money. You lose NO weapons either way.

* Lots of funny easter eggs, like Zombie Lynn, Chicken Guy, destroying armored cars, etc.

* You could rob ANY shop at night. Break in then open the safe. Smash the register. Also, you could rob any store during the day. Great fun.

(sorry forge, we answered at the same time. :)

Gladguy

04-30-2008, 08:42 AM

I do have to say the game has some serious problems. The biggest one for me is on Projection TVs displaying 1080i. I can't read the hints that pop up and I can't see my star rating or cash. Also, why is it so hard to see what's on your cell phone? I've tried adjusting the display.
I've got the same problem, Shieldwolf. They've pushed all the HUD info out to edges, where RP TVs tend to get a little fuzzy. Then, they made the text all in 8 pt. type, so it's neigh impossible to read. I can make out the cell phone now because I've moved to the larger font, but I still don't know how much cash I have. Bad design, that, assuming everyone has a Plasma/LCD HDTV.

Otherwise, I'm really enjoying the game so far. The little details are fun: I watched a 15-minute (?) Ricky Gervais stand-up bit on TV in my room. I thought that was cool.

I'd have liked to have had a replay camera/recorder like in Halo 3. There's bound to be a lot of those "wow, cool!" moments (like when I jacked that Cavalcade last night and the passenger wouldn't let go of the door!) that would have been fun to have been able to save.

BDGE

04-30-2008, 08:43 AM

Wow thanks guys. Seems a lot of what I find GTA4 to do so right(ie. cellphone) was already implemented in SR. I'll definately check out the game sometime.

forgeforsaken

04-30-2008, 08:43 AM

Marcin

04-30-2008, 08:46 AM

One of the other things about Saints Row was that the developers to some degree got what was fun about the genre and made missions around that random stupid stuff people did. Insurance Fraud is an example of this. Likewise Rampage (think that's what it was called) where the mission objectives are just about doing as much property damage as you can however you can in a time limit. Same deal with the carjack missions where if you get into any car with a passenger you could start the carjack mission which turned instantly into a police chase. You want to drive around and avoid the police, ok here's an instant mission for that.

They definitely figured out the "game" part, whereas I think Rockstar wants to make an "experience". Consider that all the side missions in SR utilized the open world; and how many in GTA already do not. Which is weird.

As long as they both keep making these games, I'm fine with one being more gamey and the other more immersive (if occasionally clunky in execution).

noun

04-30-2008, 08:48 AM

I played for about 90 minutes last night. Initial impressions:

* All the cars I've jacked so far appear to be riding on bald tires with a load of concrete in the trunk. If that's not the case, then I am at a loss to explain why a car traveling at 30 mph needs 500 feet to come to a stop. I've given up on missions until I figure out the driving mechanics.

* If I'm this badass Systema-trained ex-soldier, as early movies seem to indicate I am, why am I unable to subdue an old man using the kick and punch buttons? I wasn't expecting Condemned in my GTA game. Likewise, I'm going to wander the street taking on random people until I get a handle on the combat controls.

GTA IV may eventually be the winner when it comes to overall game experience, but right now Saints Row is the superior game in terms of getting into the game quickly.

Kevin Grey

04-30-2008, 08:48 AM

I'm playing the games backwards (I'm on Vice City now) and the improvement between VC and SA is considerable.

I'm only four hours in, so maybe it changes, but right now San Andreas seems to be a much bigger leap over it's predecessor than GTA4 is.

forgeforsaken

04-30-2008, 08:52 AM

GTA IV may eventually be the winner when it comes to overall game experience, but right now Saints Row is the superior game in terms of getting into the game quickly.

There can be no argument on this. You get a gun in the first 5 minutes in Saints Row, and in GTA4 it takes, what, over an hour?

Conrad

04-30-2008, 08:57 AM

Yeah, I'm only a couple hours in so far, but I'm also disappointed that GTA didn't copy more gameplay refinements from SR. That said, I'm finding GTA's setting and characters to be far more compelling than SR or what I've seen from SR2. I'm sure I'll play it more.

One of my chief complaints about GTA so far, though, has been it's lack of respect for the safe area for HUD elements. They seem to love hugging stuff right up against the very edge of the screen, to the point where it's easy to miss. The bottom part of the cell phone UI is cut off on my TV. I thought keeping things away from the edge was a requirement, although I could be misremembering. Either way, it's bad form and I don't see a reason for them to break convention.

Edit: Ahh, I see someone else mentioned the HUD too. I fail at reading.

metta

04-30-2008, 09:02 AM

Maybe the guys at Rockstar just don't like women.

I'd say the evidence is fairly overwhelming at this point.

thamer

04-30-2008, 09:04 AM

At the risk of derailing this thread it should be noted: SR has a much more satirical feel than GTA ever had. GTA started, at least, taking itself as seriously as Scarface while SR is more in line with The Fast And The Furious.

Zuwadza

04-30-2008, 09:04 AM

Damn, I have both Saint's Row and GTAIV sitting here, with only a few hours in on SR, and you guys are making me want to play SR instead!

Mink Staccato

04-30-2008, 09:08 AM

It's funny because I just spent ten minutes telling my friend about all the things that have been bothering me about GTA:IV and feeling guilty the whole time, because everyone seems to be in love with this game. And I jumped on here and read Tom's assessment and was like, "Thank F'ing God!"

First of all, I really, really like this game. It is drop dead gorgeous. Seriously, just stupid pretty. And it gets so much right that, like Tom, I'm going to push through and hope it gets better. I'm sure it will. (It does, right? Right?!?)

But so much of what I loved about GTA has suddenly disappeared. What incentive do I have to explore this beautiful city, walk down the random alleyways, climb the top of buildings, take my time to look around, if there isn't anything to find? Where are the secret packages, the random weapons, etc? The secret missions? I know, it's not realistic to climb to the top of a tall building and find a snipers rifle, but it's FUN! And if I'm sacrificing fun for realism, it's not a trade I want to make.

And the driving is really... slow. It's like driving through molasses. My favorite part of the GTA's was driving around until I can find a fast car (or better, motorcycle) and looking for the stunt jumps. But because everything is so sloggy here, when I'm going "fast", it doesn't feel like I'M GOING FAST!!! You know how, in the old GTAs, when you crash your fast-zip-zip vehicle and the only thing around you was an delivery van and you'd jump in just so you could be driving instead of walking. And the van was slow, but you didn't care, because you were only it in until you could get back to a fast vehicle? Well, all the vehicles in GTA:IV feel like that van to me. Maybe it's just because I've been playing Burnout: Paradise. How is it that grand theft auto made the driving less fun?

And when I complete a stunt jump, what do I get? A small, white Times-New-Roman-font text at the bottom of the screen saying "You have completed a stunt jump" or "You were unsuccessful". Boring!!! Where is my ta-DAAA!!! I don’t even get a little music burst?!?

And it a small thing, but when you get into a vehicle, the above-car perspective should change to the center of the vehicle. Right now, it stays on the driver (so the vehicle is off to the right). This makes it very difficult to 'thread the needle' with the oncoming traffic. Again, more realistic at the cost of fun.

Also, like Tom, I loaded up my Xbox360 with a music set just for this game and was disappointed.

These minigames are total garbage. Are you telling me they dropped all the secret missions for... fucking darts!?! Enough said.

And one of my favorite-favorite-favorite things in prior games was the missions where you steal a list of cars and deliver them in exchange for some sweet-sweet ride. I haven't gone through the game enough to know if there is a mission like this (and don't tell me), but if there is not, then all I can say is... Damn! And I suspect it's not in there, because we no longer get the names of the vehicles, so how would I identify the vehicles to steal? Double damn!!!

One other last thing, because everything looks so good/real now... I can't find the new clothing stores! I keep walking up to storefronts and pushing on doors that don't open. How do we tell which doors you can open and cannot? The icon on the map doesn't seem to appear until you 'use' one of the locations. I don't want to break out the paper map every time I want to buy a damn pair of glasses.

Whew!! I really needed to get that off my chest. Thanks.

Still, like I said above, I'll play it to the end regardless. And they get a lot right.

-Mink-

Jazar

04-30-2008, 09:12 AM

Oh and having recently struggled through much of San Andreas recently, it was very disturbing how far the quality level of the game seemed to dip once you left the confines of South Central Los Santos. Just as I was making a name for myself, carving out my piece of the map and spreading my colors, upgrading my skills and starting to finally learn my way around the seedy ghetto; the game rips -everything- away from me.

It plops me into the middle of some foreign land that stretches on for eternity, removes any and all sense of exploration and progression structure(missions become rigid and forced - race twice in a row, perform these robberies back-to-back) and any and all ancilliary activites are gone for a good many hours. The narrative tone dips tremendously too, the gangsta vibe was well established and handled creatively in the early-goings, but that attitude doesn't work as well when dealing with David Cross' mumbling nerd ruminations, or the freaking Chinese Triads! Packing up my car with a bunch of hippies, geeks, and surfer bro's on one particular mission reached a level of disconnect and silliness that stole away my care to push on.

Not to derail (as well as repeat myself as I've said this before), but I really, really loved that part in San Andreas. It was like in FF7 where you play for hours in a town (Midguard) and there's one singular moment when you finally step out and realize that there's a whole world out there you never knew about.

Hugin

04-30-2008, 09:15 AM

Thank goodness I'm not alone. At this point I'm taking it on sheer faith the game gets super awesome later.

BlueJackalope

04-30-2008, 09:17 AM

I'd say the evidence is fairly overwhelming at this point.

Yeah, they should have tried a female protagonist maybe this time around.
They seem to think anything gay is automatically funny.

EDIT: I like the game a lot, but as long as this is the whining thread -

Scarface had better music.
Also color me surprised I can't make my own playlist/use my own music.

delirium

04-30-2008, 09:23 AM

Honestly, I much prefer GTAIV's combat system to Saints Row. The combat in Saints Row was fairly trivial and I had little trouble mowing down entire gangs. GTAIV makes improvements on the annoyingly rigid gunplay of the last GTA game I played, but it's a nice slowed down and less twitchy pace than SR. It forces you to get yourself in a good strategic position and hold your ground rather than just run in guns blazing.

SR wins the driveby shooting controls, though. GTAIV's is awkward and could have benefitted from something slicker.

The music on the radio is good, but I'll agree with Tom that there are just too many humor bits in there. They're mostly entertaining, but it gets to be a bit much and sometimes you just want to listen to some music. The lack of custom music playlists is pretty surprising, though I'm OK with just using their stations.

tromik

04-30-2008, 09:24 AM

I'll say this - I was planning on revisiting the PS2 version of the GTA games, but I don't think I'll be able to after this, and not just because of the graphics.

Alex Handy

04-30-2008, 09:24 AM

Mordrak

04-30-2008, 09:26 AM

Not to derail (as well as repeat myself as I've said this before), but I really, really loved that part in San Andreas. It was like in FF7 where you play for hours in a town (Midguard) and there's one singular moment when you finally step out and realize that there's a whole world out there you never knew about.

I agree. I used that opportunity to reinvent myself (new clothes) as it expanded. Which, really did play to the themes of the story because....

*SPOILERS*
By the time I picked up Sweet from the police station, my character looked totally different, decked out in a casual suit and driving a fancy car. He looked nothing like Grove Street boy he started out as. That and all the time outside of Los Santos increased the impact of Sweet's speech.

The biggest mistake I think they made was letting you engage in the turf war that early (or at least letting you theoretically take the town), before that incident. I would've seriously been pissed if I had spent hours taking over Los Santos to just lose it. Though, I can see the point of that as well.

*END SPOILERS*

I'm only four hours in, so maybe it changes, but right now San Andreas seems to be a much bigger leap over it's predecessor than GTA4 is.

Bummer. Still, it sounds like a great game.

BDGE

04-30-2008, 09:32 AM

Not to derail (as well as repeat myself as I've said this before), but I really, really loved that part in San Andreas. It was like in FF7 where you play for hours in a town (Midguard) and there's one singular moment when you finally step out and realize that there's a whole world out there you never knew about.

I can sympathize with the FF7 comment, I was actually worried that Midgar was all FF7 had to offer until I hit the overworld and then...THANK GOD! I had a bit of a fanboy moment when I was abandoned in a whole new and strange land in SA initially...but then it all turned sour...

Losing all the kooky side development, and whatnot felt like such a strange design choice for the sake of giving us a bloated mess of land with nothing to do within it(I can't recruit gang members anymore? I didn't finish taking over all of the territory! Where are the missions? What CAN I do in this place beyond the very rigid mission progression?). Even worse is when you get the option to chase down drug couriers upon reaching San Francisco...I spend 5-10 minutes driving along the freeway from one end of the state to the other at breakneck speeds, but OH SHIT I was still too late and missed my shot...try again in 3 gamedays and have a good trip spending ten minutes driving back to the other city where actual shit can get done.

Seriously, as long as I am back in LA(sorry for the real world references, I can't remember the game names), can't I at least continue doing territory control or something? Oh right, no more gang, no more fun in LA.

MattKeil

04-30-2008, 09:33 AM

There can be no argument on this. You get a gun in the first 5 minutes in Saints Row, and in GTA4 it takes, what, over an hour?

Maybe 15 minutes.

People sure are ready to jump down the game's throat after three missions or so.

Mink Staccato

04-30-2008, 09:35 AM

This is in the game. Talk to Brucie.

Oh good. I'm happy to hear it. I'm looking forward to that then. (Even though I asked that nobody tell me...)

And, for the record, again... I really like this game. I just needed to rant a little.

-Mink-

BDGE

04-30-2008, 09:35 AM

I got a gun in the first five minutes of GTA4...of course I did punch the crqap out of an officer to get it, but still!

JPR

04-30-2008, 09:42 AM

Exactly. You walk out of Roman's apartment, start a fight with someone, run up to the police car that shows up, wait for the cops to get out, get in the car, get out of the car, murder the cop with your new shotgun, pick up his pistol.

Now you have a shotgun, a pistol, and a cop car within a minute or so of the actual beginning of the game.

BDGE

04-30-2008, 09:44 AM

Oh and I've also seen a few weapons lying about the city to be discovered. Mostly molotov cocktails so far, but they are scattered to find.

Adam Altmann

04-30-2008, 09:49 AM

This is the first GTA game I've played. (I looked at them after having played Mafia on the PC, and didn't think they'd live up.) I haven't played Crackdown or Saint's Row. (I might play Crackdown at some point. Saint's Row, probably not.) I also didn't read a single goddamn thing about this game before I bought it, on purpose, so I guess you could say I went in with no expectations whatsoever.

I can agree with complaints about the controls, but I'm reasonably sure that my frustration with driving/dodging/jumping/climbing/shooting/fighting is due to my unfamiliarity with it. I wasn't so hot at Guitar Hero when I started, either.

I can agree that some of the missions aren't big on Wow-Factor, and that the rules of physics seem to bend in favor of the bad-guys during chase actions.

I can't agree with the "OMG! I can't has a deep and meaningful relationship with my virtual girl! They're treated as sex objects!" complaint, because:

A) Really, what did you expect when you bought it? I haven't even played the other games and I've managed to piece together the general tone of the series. Reminds me of the low-star reviews on Amazon where dude bitches about book W because it's (clearly) a book about Y, when he wanted to buy a book about Z.

And B) Are we expecting to find our soulmates or something? I don't really think it would be fun to simulate "Wow! She really understands me.", or when the Open Door Peeing Policy kicks in, or discuss finances, or shop for groceries, or bicker over stupid irrelevant shit. And is this honestly where we're at now? Bitching about not being able to have a genuine relationship between two video game characters?

Okay. Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe the game is for everyone. I'm certainly no raging fanatic about this game in particular (I'm only half a dozen hours in or so), GTA games, or Rockstar, or much of anything else. However, I've seen a few complaints that are honestly...well, they're ridiculous...it seems like people are either just fishing for things to bitch about or have spent waaaay too much time mentally constructing what the game would be, and are pissed that it isn't that game.

-The game tells you to break a window, I tried breaking the door and failed to satisfy the win-condition, the game should know better.

-I thought it would be cool to do Trivial Action X in the game, and I can't, so the game is really a letdown for me.

-When I drive my car I like to listen to my own CDs. I believe everyone does this. This game doesn't let me listen to my own CDs. This game only has eleventy different radio stations and hundreds of songs, the vast majority of which fail to satisfy my refined tastes. Everyone wants to listen to their own CDs. Duh.

I mean whatever. If you're disappointed you're disappointed, there's just a lot of nerd-rage in this thread.

Cal

04-30-2008, 09:49 AM

Oh and I've also seen a few weapons lying about the city to be discovered. Mostly molotov cocktails so far, but they are scattered to find.

Also there is a pistol on a roof 20 seconds from your starting place. You can grab this about 2mins into the game! Go hold up a cop car and you can add a crapoad of ammo and a shotgun to your armoury, all that within the first few minutes. (Just dont let the police arrest you!! better to be shot dead!)

Also a few blocks from your starting place are molotov cocktails, a baseball bat and a knife, plus an uber speedy bike that is a tonne of fun!

Just takes a little exploration, and running along the roof's and down the backalley's

rjcc

04-30-2008, 09:54 AM

That's not the issue. The equivalent situation is (as has happened here on a few games over the years) giving the enemies green blood when you shoot them. It's not about the lack of nudity, so much as how silly it is given the context of the game and the setting. And it's especially noticeable when Roman spends the entire first couple of hours of the game droning on and on about pretty much nothing else

so you're disappointed that cousin Roman exaggerated about something?

(I wouldn't be surprised if you miss what I'm doing there^^)

Drastic

04-30-2008, 09:58 AM

And I'd called mid-May for the GTA backlash. Must recalibrate prediction engine.

I dunno; it seems to me that the car physics in GTA3 on have always been floaty, skidtastic affairs. So I'm suspicious that folks claiming they used to be better in prior titles are just comparing to the memory of when they'd compensated for the skidtasticness before.

Complaining about lack of a custom soundtrack is just bizarre, assuming we're talking the 360 version. Every 360 game has a custom soundtrack, unless this is some sort of argument of the Immersion Breaking school by not having an in-game widget for it. In which case, may your tribe prosper; even though you are alien to my people, my tribe bears you no ill will.

No question that Saint's Row had better drive-by controls. The only side mission from it that really stuck in my memory was Insurance Fraud, though. Which was definitely a high-water mark. It would be kinda neat if the SR game-mechanics guys got writing talent on par with Rockstr's though; the best SR ever got in that regard was bits of its right-wing talk radio, and that mostly because satirizing right-wing talk radio is like shooting fish in a barrel with a cheat-coded shotgun that autoaims at fish and never misses.

EvilIdler

04-30-2008, 09:58 AM

I've even tried to avoid killing people on my dates!

We all know from real life how well THAT works out!

I agree the car controls feel a bit weird (although it's fine when you get a decent car; shame about being
forced to drive the horrible taxis sometimes).
The controls on foot are annoying, though. I really think they should have used the analog sticks the way
the gods intended. Why a separate run button, when pushing the stick further would have sufficed? As a bonus, it could have made room for a better hotkey for some action.

Charles

04-30-2008, 09:59 AM

One of the things that really annoys me about GTA4 is how slow the cars drive on the road. I enjoy following traffic laws while I play, and cars driving 20km/h nonstop just kills it.

I still wish police would notice you when you run a stop light, or drive on the wrong side of the road, or whatnot. I can understand why they didn't though.

But really, my biggest issue is the horrible hand to hand combat. So far anyway. I haven't done that many missions. Based on Tom's review, I expect to end up shelving the game due to the same level of frustration I had with GTA3.

Also, I have to say I'm disappointed with all the things they didn't do. What year is this? Because I thought we'd moved past the era of playing your run animation against a wall, having to jump over tiny step-sized obstacles, and walking off an edge in to empty space.

edit: And what the hell is with tapping to sprint and holding a button to run? Jeez. It's like I'm stuck in a ten year old JRPG.

Mink Staccato

04-30-2008, 09:59 AM

Where are the secret packages, the random weapons, etc? The secret missions? I know, it's not realistic to climb to the top of a tall building and find a snipers rifle, but it's FUN!

Ok, even though I spent the last two years avoiding all the screenshots, all the previews, all the... well, everything concerning GTA:IV. I did a little digging and found out that, apparently, ***SPOILER*** there are 200 secret radioactive-glowing-pigeons to shoot later in the game instead of packages. So, that's good.

Because, you know, shooting glowing pigeons is more realistic (albiet much more cruel to animals) than just a random package lying about...

And there are random weapons, only they're more difficult to find.

And before I get a huge backlash on my rant, I did play the game for about 8 hours yesterday and didn't find any of these.

-Mink-

Jazar

04-30-2008, 10:03 AM

I mean whatever. If you're disappointed you're disappointed, there's just a lot of nerd-rage in this thread.

Agreed. I have a lot of nitpicks but I'm just mostly sitting here at work, dying to go back to Liberty City.

Mink Staccato

04-30-2008, 10:04 AM

Agreed. I have a lot of nitpicks but I'm just mostly sitting here at workind dying to go back to Liberty City.

And THAT I totally agree with...

-Mink-

WarrenM

04-30-2008, 10:05 AM

Complaining about lack of a custom soundtrack is just bizarre, assuming we're talking the 360 version. Every 360 game has a custom soundtrack, unless this is some sort of argument of the Immersion Breaking school by not having an in-game widget for it. In which case, may your tribe prosper; even though you are alien to my people, my tribe bears you no ill will.
Unless there's an option to suppress the car radios that I didn't see this won't fully work. Or is that what turning the music volume all the way down will do?

Cubit

04-30-2008, 10:11 AM

I don't know if this is what your looking for, but you can turn off the car radio by holding the <- on the pad between the two analog sticks on the 360.

WarrenM

04-30-2008, 10:15 AM

I turn it off all the time, yeah, but it's annoying to have to do it every time I get into a vehicle.

Jason McMaster

04-30-2008, 10:16 AM

I completely disagree with you on most points, Tom, but I agree about the radio stations. After the awesome job that was done with San Andreas, the radio stations in 4 (excluding Vladistock and Liberty City Rock) are very lackluster.

As far as the other complaints, I think most peoples complaints are going to be based on the fact that this game is a shit ton more realistic feeling than any of the 3 series. It's kind of weird, actually, going from whole-hearted murder to kind of feeling creeped out when you kill someone.

I dunno, I think it's one of the best games I've played in years.

And... Saint's Row? You think Saint's Row is better? I... I don't know what to say.

Cubit

04-30-2008, 10:17 AM

I turn it off all the time, yeah, but it's annoying to have to do it every time I get into a vehicle.

Very true. Anyone know if this can be turned off permanently?

ElGuapo

04-30-2008, 10:19 AM

Shit, you know what I'm going to do tonight? I'm going to start a free mode multiplayer. Then I'm going to do a little practice. Drills, as it were. Shooting and moving from cover, firing while driving. Melee, all that. Ammo and weapons aren't really a concern, so it's a pure playground/practice mode.

It's nice one can do stuff like that. No MSG VR simulation. Practice in a real city!

Mink Staccato

04-30-2008, 10:30 AM

As far as the other complaints, I think most peoples complaints are going to be based on the fact that this game is a shit ton more realistic feeling than any of the 3 series. It's kind of weird, actually, going from whole-hearted murder to kind of feeling creeped out when you kill someone.

I've been thinking about this today and I think you're right. Everything in the style is about going more realistic... Even the stars in the corner of the screen (which used to be large and somewhat cartoon-like) are now small and plain, probably because they were trying to minimalize everything that wasn't real looking. And there are no 'Mission Accomplished!' messages, accompanied by a guitar riff, when you've finished something.

The only problem is, I liked those. I liked pulling off a stunt jump and getting the "fuck yeah!" feeling when the music changed and the message popped up on the screen.

Ah well... It's a new style. One that I don't like as much, but I'll run with it.

-Mink-

quatoria

04-30-2008, 10:32 AM

I think its just that they have some sort of inner GTA fanboy willing to neglect all the flaws exist, or thinking a control problem is an issue with them, not the game, cause after all "ITS GTA BITCHES." Also the fact that it was reviewed in one of those review junkets or whatever the hell those are called, which I'm sure effects a score.

Or, alternately, it could be that they didn't see any bugs worth mentioning. After more than a dozen hours with the game, I haven't found any bugs at all. Of course, that's probably because R* totally bought me off. (Confidential to Rockstar: If you're reading this, I can absolutely be bought off. Contact me for details and price ranges!)

Charles

04-30-2008, 10:41 AM

I haven't seen much that counds as a bug so far. Except for a dude that got caught between me and the hot dog stand, and sat there twitching and vibrating while the physics freaked out until I was done getting my hotdog.

Beyond that, all the issues I've seen are just stuff I think could've been handled better for a greater level of polish. *shrug* Some people don't care about that stuff, for me it makes a big difference.

Mink Staccato

04-30-2008, 10:43 AM

mono

04-30-2008, 10:44 AM

I don't like the camera scheme while driving, nor the sluggish responsiveness of the car. Walking is almost as bad. They've got an analog stick, why can't that control my walking/running speed? Do I really need to press a button to run? I wish they had a Jazz radio station. Did I miss it? The graphics being stuck at 720p are pretty jarring coming from a PC where I rarely play below 1920x1200. Low res textures, low poly objects, and lots of pop in.

I can't wait to get back to it! Having a lot of fun exploring Liberty City, meeting the various in-game personalities, and checking out the radio stations. I can easily see frustration rearing it's ugly head when I face a mission or two that actually makes some sort of skill demands on me as a player. I'll probably benefit from not having played the previous iterations of GTA (except GTA 1) in that old tropes will seem new.

Zuwadza

04-30-2008, 10:58 AM

I wish they had a Jazz radio station. Did I miss it?

You did indeed. JNR: Jazz Nation Radio.

steve

04-30-2008, 11:05 AM

Or, alternately, it could be that they didn't see any bugs worth mentioning. After more than a dozen hours with the game, I haven't found any bugs at all. Of course, that's probably because R* totally bought me off. (Confidential to Rockstar: If you're reading this, I can absolutely be bought off. Contact me for details and price ranges!)
Or alternately alternately, they played the game a lot more than the people posting first impressions. I personally find that little nitpicky details stand out the first few times I play a game because, lacking the big picture you get when you've played longer, that's all I have to focus on. (And I'm trying to make some sort of mental calculation about whether to continue playing.) As I get X hours in, they either become non-issues (or lesser issues) or game killers. This is one of the reasons why I was always opposed to posting "early impressions" pieces on our old websites; I'd hate to think I'd be influencing people one way or another, only to shift gears later and hope that people saw the second piece.

Anyway, most criticisms of GTA4 could be leveled against every game in the series. They were also glitchy, had dodgy controls, featured some clunky missions, were unpolished, blah blah blah. Should all of these areas be improved? Sure. But Rockstar, for better or worse, keeps adding more things rather than refining their formula. These games are about a bigger, broader experience, whereas Saints Row and Just Cause and its ilk were more narrowly focused. The GTA games are like drunken game design discussions, where you start throwing in the craziest shit; "Let's set a mission in a bowling alley... and let you bowl! Let's have a comedy club, and bring in real comedians!"

Would the game be more deserving of its hype is all of this... stuff was more polished? Sure. But to get it more polished, they'd probably have to cut off 50% of the crazy shit in the games. And I sort of like the crazy shit, even when some of it kinda sucks.

Jason McMaster

04-30-2008, 11:06 AM

Or alternately alternately, they played the game a lot more than the people posting first impressions. I personally find that little nitpicky details stand out the first few times I play a game because, lacking the big picture you get when you've played longer, that's all I have to focus on. (And I'm trying to make some sort of mental calculation about whether to continue playing.) As I get X hours in, they either become non-issues (or lesser issues) or game killers. This is one of the reasons why I was always opposed to posting "early impressions" pieces on our old websites; I'd hate to think I'd be influencing people one way or another, only to shift gears later and hope that people saw the second piece.

Anyway, most criticisms of GTA4 could be leveled against every game in the series. They were also glitchy, had dodgy controls, featured some clunky missions, were unpolished, blah blah blah. Should all of these areas be improved? Sure. But Rockstar, for better or worse, keeps adding more things rather than refining their formula. These games are about a bigger, broader experience, whereas Saints Row and Just Cause and its ilk were more narrowly focused. The GTA games are like drunken game design discussions, where you start throwing in the craziest shit; "Let's set a mission in a bowling alley... and let you bowl! Let's have a comedy club, and bring in real comedians!"

Would the game be more deserving of its hype is all of this... stuff was more polished? Sure. But to get it more polished, they'd probably have to cut off 50% of the crazy shit in the games. And I sort of like the crazy shit, even when some of it kinda sucks.

Absolutely right

Hugin

04-30-2008, 11:11 AM

Or, alternately, it could be that they didn't see any bugs worth mentioning. After more than a dozen hours with the game, I haven't found any bugs at all. Of course, that's probably because R* totally bought me off. (Confidential to Rockstar: If you're reading this, I can absolutely be bought off. Contact me for details and price ranges!)

These may not be bugs exactly, but:

Roman invited me to a strip club. But I wanted to save first, forgetting that saving in the apartment bed forwards you several hours. So I blew the "date"
with Roman, which is fine. But the map didn't get updated with the strip club, so far as I can tell. And if you invite Roman later, the GPS doesn't point you to it or anything. Hardly a gamestopping issue, but it's there.

I dislike the way I shove/attack/tackle people if I pass them too closely. I've knocked my own people down (michelle and roman) just by brushing against them.

In the same way, even the slightest on foot or vehicular tap of a cop causes them to go nuts.

They give me the sandboxy tools to solve problems then script my solutions away. For example, I can't move, jack, block in, or otherwise affect "getaway" vehicles. I can't come in the back door even when I know that's the escape route of a target. Cars magically disappear or reposition themselves if the scripting dictates it. As someone mentioned earlier, a glass door is impervious to all harm, but the glass window next to it isn't.

Jason McMaster

04-30-2008, 11:15 AM

you have to actually enter a location before it shows up on your map outside of special missions.

Rock8man

04-30-2008, 11:16 AM

Or alternately alternately, they played the game a lot more than the people posting first impressions. I personally find that little nitpicky details stand out the first few times I play a game because, lacking the big picture you get when you've played longer, that's all I have to focus on. (And I'm trying to make some sort of mental calculation about whether to continue playing.) As I get X hours in, they either become non-issues (or lesser issues) or game killers. This is one of the reasons why I was always opposed to posting "early impressions" pieces on our old websites; I'd hate to think I'd be influencing people one way or another, only to shift gears later and hope that people saw the second piece.

I agree completely on your whole post, with regards to GTA especially. But sometimes this same factor works the other way too. The factor I'm referring to is this whole thing about how when you play past a certain point, you take the bigger picture into account and are more liable to disregard the nitpicky details that don't work. In games like Zelda: Twilight Princess, for example, I think most reviewers gave the game a very favorable rating because when you're working on a deadline and have a 50+ hour game to get through, you tend to plow through the sole-crushingly boring start of the game. And when you're done with your 50+ hour adventure, you tend to forget what a piss poor start the game had and that it might have been so bad that most people might not even get past it if they're playing for fun, instead of playing on a deadline where they have to get through the game.

Of course, I don't think GTAIV has that problem, personally. Any nitpicks at the start of the game are just minor annoyances, not something that would make the game worth abandoning for most people.

Lum

04-30-2008, 11:18 AM

For example, I can't move, jack, block in, or otherwise affect "getaway" vehicles. I can't come in the back door even when I know that's the escape route of a target.

Yeah, I know what mission you're talking about, and that frustrated me as well. I guess they did that to make sure you go to the (somewhat scripted) ending sequence in the construction yard. Pretty sure there's no way to catch the guy once he's in his van, either.

BDGE

04-30-2008, 11:22 AM

The glass window bit seemed obvious enough to me, I mean the window is basically the entire side of the building. And watching enough mafia cinema in my day, my first thought was to toss a garbage can through it when asked...except I can't pick up that stuff. I didn't even know about the brick and didn't see an icon pointing me to one, so I accidentally punched the window which triggered the glass shattering and won the mission, even though I did it wrong.

That actually annoyed me far more than not being able to break the glass door. Was the brick obvious to you guys? Had it not been for this thread I would have thought my game glitched or I couldn't figure out what button picked up garbage cans. I walked the entire block trying every button on boxes, trash, anything, where was the brick anyway?

Hugin

04-30-2008, 11:23 AM

you have to actually enter a location before it shows up on your map outside of special missions.

I know. And I know where the club is, it's on the paper map, like I said, it's not really a bug and it's not a huge problem. I just wish the game had a flag buried in there somewhere that knew I was trying to get to a known location for the first time, given it knows the specific "date" venues as you invoke them by cell phone.

BlueJackalope

04-30-2008, 11:26 AM

Of course, I don't think GTAIV has that problem, personally. Any nitpicks at the start of the game are just minor annoyances, not something that would make the game worth abandoning for most people.

They are minor annoyances. I like the driving (of course I'm Steve McQueen, Popeye Doyle and Michael Schumacher rolled into one) and the melee combat, as simple as it is, is cool (way better than Crackdown or any previous GTA). I love the city, I'll love it more when I can find a decent jacket.

The story is pretty good so far, (I haven't got very far) and like most of the reviews note - I like Nico.

I know I'll put in some serious hours on this, and I'm looking forward to it.

forgeforsaken

04-30-2008, 11:26 AM

That actually annoyed me far more than not being able to break the glass door. Was the brick obvious to you guys? Had it not been for this thread I would have thought my game glitched or I couldn't figure out what button picked up garbage cans. I walked the entire block trying every button on boxes, trash, anything, where was the brick anyway?There was a waypoint on the map for the brick.

WarrenM

04-30-2008, 11:27 AM

That actually annoyed me far more than not being able to break the glass door. Was the brick obvious to you guys?
No. I ran all over trying to pick up trash cans, pieces of wood, and whatever else looked likely. Nothing worked until I noticed a new marker on my mini-map which lead me to the magical pile of bricks.

Jazar

04-30-2008, 11:27 AM

Rock8man

04-30-2008, 11:34 AM

No. I ran all over trying to pick up trash cans, pieces of wood, and whatever else looked likely. Nothing worked until I noticed a new marker on my mini-map which lead me to the magical pile of bricks.

I did the same thing. And then after I noticed the magical pile of bricks, I tried throwing it through the door, and it went through the door. Next brick bounced off. Then I tried throwing it through the glass window to the left of the door (where auto aim locks on) and it went through it. Then the next brick bounced off that glass window too. So then I concentrated on the door again for the next few bricks. Finally I tried kicking and punching and nothing seemed to work. And then I was about to walk away but accidentally bumped into the glass while walking, and that finally broke the glass.

BDGE

04-30-2008, 11:34 AM

I hate the HUD map. I really can't make out any icons the thing represents. I assumed the game would hint me at what to do, but I didn't even notice a new icon on it because everything is so tiny and the same color(I'm horribly colorblind, even the green tint of the personal GPS appears almost invisible to me).

Wholly Schmidt

04-30-2008, 11:34 AM

I'd come down in defense of the A button for running and sprinting. We're all spoiled from a gameplay perspective because in every video game ever, we're running as fast as we're allowed at every possible moment. Changing the control scheme from just bolting around all the time at the flick of the analog stick makes running a more conscious decision and reins in your behavior a bit, bringing it much more in line with how a real person moves around (i.e. they walk).

I understand that it's frustrating if you think it's pointless to be slowed down just for the sake of realism, or if you think that's ok in theory but that GTA still isn't realistic enough overall to justify this particular sacrifice of gameplay efficiency, but I can definitely see the argument for it and I enjoy their decision.

Rock8man

04-30-2008, 11:36 AM

^^^^^^ Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with Schmidt on the walking/running. Great decision.

BDGE

04-30-2008, 11:39 AM

I'd come down in defense of the A button for running and sprinting. We're all spoiled from a gameplay perspective because in every video game ever, we're running as fast as we're allowed at every possible moment. Changing the control scheme from just bolting around all the time at the flick of the analog stick makes running a more conscious decision and reigns in your behavior a bit, bringing it much more in line with how a real person moves around (i.e. they walk).

I understand that it's frustrating if you think it's pointless to be slowed down just for the sake of realism, or if you think that's ok in theory but that GTA still isn't realistic enough overall to justify this particular sacrifice of gameplay efficiency, but I can definitely see the argument for it and I enjoy their decision.

I just assumed they did it so you don't end up sprinting all over the place when you just want Niko to walk into a very tight location. I hate it when I end up zapping past a small trigger point in games because it's hard to get your character to fine-tune movement. (Metal GEAR!!)

Kevin Grey

04-30-2008, 11:42 AM

I did the same thing. And then after I noticed the magical pile of bricks, I tried throwing it through the door, and it went through the door. Next brick bounced off. Then I tried throwing it through the glass window to the left of the door (where auto aim locks on) and it went through it. Then the next brick bounced off that glass window too. So then I concentrated on the door again for the next few bricks. Finally I tried kicking and punching and nothing seemed to work. And then I was about to walk away but accidentally bumped into the glass while walking, and that finally broke the glass.

Put me in the camp of initially being confused here. First thing I did was see if it would let me rip the payphone off the wall. Nope. See some trash cans down the street and I assumed that would do the trick. No luck, couldn't pick any of that stuff up. Then I noticed a green dot on the HUD and decided to see where it would take me.

Cal

04-30-2008, 11:47 AM

Put me in the camp of initially being confused here. First thing I did was see if it would let me rip the payphone off the wall. Nope. See some trash cans down the street and I assumed that would do the trick. No luck, couldn't pick any of that stuff up. Then I noticed a green dot on the HUD and decided to see where it would take me.

To be fair, that was only an issue as it was the first time we saw the green markers, which after that missions we learn are objectives. It was stupid not to point out that you had a new green GPS line on your hud that leads to objectives on foot tho. Every missions after you know to look for it. Now if only they would make the radar bigger, and the phone a bit more clear.

Personally i solved this mission by ramming my car into the window and totalling the poor guys shop. It seems you can punch it, shoot it, baseball bat it as well.

Adam Altmann

04-30-2008, 11:51 AM

Put me in the camp of initially being confused here. First thing I did was see if it would let me rip the payphone off the wall. Nope. See some trash cans down the street and I assumed that would do the trick. No luck, couldn't pick any of that stuff up. Then I noticed a green dot on the HUD and decided to see where it would take me.

I ran across the street and tried the trash cans, then the newspaper stand things. Getting frustrated, I kept walking into the trashcans and things like a retard, until I thought to myself:

"Self, there's probably some Pick-Shit-Up button or control combination that I'm not using, but before we expend the effort to tap the Start button and look at the control scheme again, let's turn around and run all the way back to the window (while dodging cars and pedestrians) and try punching it."

I was both sad and happy that it worked.

Dirt

04-30-2008, 11:53 AM

Alright, to hell with the backwards compatibility, I'm picking up a PS3 40gb next month.

Dave Long

04-30-2008, 11:54 AM

Alright, to hell with the backwards compatibility, I'm picking up a PS3 40gb next month.
I have one, and I think it's super cool.

ElGuapo

04-30-2008, 12:04 PM

I wish there were lots MORE indoor places to go into. Not blank store fronts. Places with windows to smash. I'd love to be able to duck into some random tenement and be chased up to the roof by the cops.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 12:08 PM

-The game tells you to break a window, I tried breaking the door and failed to satisfy the win-condition, the game should know better.

The door looks a lot more like a window than the windows do because the windows have closed blinds on them (or at least they did when I was there at night) which almost look like the protective barriers store windows drop in less affluent neighborhoods and the door was clearly glass, which seems like it should be breakable. If I can break the glass of the window with my fist, why can I not break the door with a car? I know that game and world/level design dictates you have to stop people from doing some things in the name of maintaining a certain reasonable world state, but you have to be consistent about what is and isn't allowed. GTA4 is not consistent in this area, nor in the areas of which doors can be opened, etc. BAD DESIGN.

I just assumed they did it so you don't end up sprinting all over the place when you just want Niko to walk into a very tight location. I hate it when I end up zapping past a small trigger point in games because it's hard to get your character to fine-tune movement.

Speaking of fine-tuned movement, what is it with the pool game's angle control being all super loosey-goosey and then you have to hold the X button down for "fine control". WHAT THE FUCK? HOLD DOWN A BUTTON FOR FINER CONTROL? THIS CONTROLLER I'M HOLDING HAS TWO MOTHERFUCKING ANALOG STICKS!!! ANALOG!!! WHO DESIGNED THIS INPUT SCHEME? Head scratching UI/input/gameplay decisions like this are rampant in GTA4.

We're all spoiled from a gameplay perspective because in every video game ever, we're running as fast as we're allowed at every possible moment. Changing the control scheme from just bolting around all the time at the flick of the analog stick makes running a more conscious decision and reigns in your behavior a bit, bringing it much more in line with how a real person moves around (i.e. they walk).

I don't play games to simulate life that closely and if that were really a justification for doing it, well they left a lot of really unrealistic shit in the game, so why change THAT and not everything ELSE? Bottom-line: the movement in GTA4 is less FUN across the board than in previous GTA games or Saint's Row or Crackdown or any number of other GTA-alike games. And even if you buy into the idea they changed it to be realistic, it would only be so if Niko was like 75. I don't know about you guys, but I move around a lot faster at default speed than he does. It takes like 10 motherfucking seconds to walk around a car at his default speed.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 12:15 PM

Also, in addition the the HUD elements being poorly designed (not a problem for me, they look clear enough on my 1080p 42" lcd), the game is WAY too dark at night on default settings on a tv that is properly calibrated. They must have developed and tested this game on HDTVs that were all set in "showroom torch mode". And while, yes, night is dark, night in an urban setting is not this dark, especially not when I'm in a car with high beam headlights on. I had to crank the in-game brightness up to like 75% to make it seem about the correct brightness. At least they made it easy enough to change and the in-game brightness seems to handle gamma issues fairly well so it doesn't get all washed out, so kudos for that, I guess.

Rock8man

04-30-2008, 12:21 PM

Speaking of fine-tuned movement, what is it with the pool game's angle control being all super loosey-goosey and then you have to hold the X button down for "fine control". WHAT THE FUCK?

I'm playing the 360 version, and sort of agree with you that's unnecessary to do it that way. But if I were playing the PS3 version, I'd be very grateful for this kind of scheme. One of the reasons I have trouble playing shooters on the Dualshock controllers is that I have a rough time trying to be precise with them. Much more so than the Xbox/360 controllers. A fine tune option would have been a life saver for me on the Dualshock controllers. And so I'm glad its in there, even on the 360 where it's possible for me to be more precise. I'm sure there are probably people who have the same trouble with the 360 analog sticks that I have with the Dualshock/Sixaxis analog sticks.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 12:24 PM

I'm playing the 360 version, and sort of agree with you that's unnecessary to do it that way. But if I were playing the PS3 version, I'd be very grateful for this kind of scheme. One of reasons I have trouble playing shooters on the Dualshock controllers is that I have a rough time trying to be precise with them. Much more so than the Xbox/360 controllers. A fine tune option would have been a life saver for me on the Dualshock controllers. And so I'm glad its in there, even on the 360 where it's possible for me to be more precise. I'm sure there are probably people who have the same trouble with the 360 analog sticks that I have with the Dualshock/Sixaxis analog sticks.

Yeah but the problem is the analog control system they implemented is poor. If they added the X button on top of a good analog input implementation with proper-feeling falloff at the edges, I wouldn't mind the 'X' button being there for people who need it, but they made the angle input so fucked up that even if you're used to using analog control in other games, you pretty much HAVE to use the 'X' button scheme whether you like it or not. If it were a crutch for people with poor motor skills, I'd applaud it, but it is a crutch for bad input control design and as such it stinks. And while it isn't a deal-breaker, since pool is just a minigame, there are loads of nonsensical choices like this all throughout the game.

Wholly Schmidt

04-30-2008, 12:26 PM

I don't play games to simulate life that closely and if that were really a justification for doing it, well they left a lot of really unrealistic shit in the game, so why change THAT and not everything ELSE?
Right. I covered that. I covered exactly that. And I didn't even tell you to see it my way, I just addressed the curiosity of abandoning the perfectly good and standard analog-for-speed control convention that a few people brought up with a possible explanation.
Bottom-line: the movement in GTA4 is less FUN across the board than in previous GTA games or Saint's Row or Crackdown or any number of other GTA-alike games. And even if you buy into the idea they changed it to be realistic, it would only be so if Niko was like 75. I don't know about you guys, but I move around a lot faster at default speed than he does. It takes like 10 motherfucking seconds to walk around a car at his default speed.Saint's Row and Crackdown comparisons will be the new Quake/Unreal wars, so I'm not touching that, but haven't the GTAs always been push-to-sprint controls?

Jazar

04-30-2008, 12:29 PM

Saint's Row and Crackdown comparisons will be the new Quake/Unreal wars, so I'm not touching that, but haven't the GTAs always been push-to-sprint controls?

Yes, only difference is that in older GTAs full analog direction would give you a light jog animation.

BDGE

04-30-2008, 12:30 PM

Actually I'm surprised the control issue NOT being argued is the awkward problem of not having reticle aim from car windows without spraying bullets. I waste so many shots just trying to get a fix on the object in question because the reticle doesn't appear unless I am firing. Still a vast improvement over past games. But that's saying very little.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 12:35 PM

but haven't the GTAs always been push-to-sprint controls?

In older GTAs you could just hold the sprint button down and get pretty good speed. You could tap the X button for a bit more 'oomph', but just the default sprint was fine for most purposes. The problem with GTA4 is the default (non-tap) sprint is like walking speed (while walking is like crawling speed). And again, this isn't just relative to other games. Niko moves like an old or very fat man even by real world standards.

Wholly Schmidt

04-30-2008, 12:37 PM

In older GTAs you could just hold the sprint button down and get pretty good speed. You could tap the X button for a bit more 'oomph', but just the default sprint was fine for most purposes. The problem with GTA4 is the default (non-tap) sprint is like walking speed (while walking is like crawling speed). And again, this isn't just relative to other games. Niko moves like an old or very fat man even by real world standards.
Alright, then I retract my defense relative to the other GTAs in that post quoting you, but stand by my initial defense of the whole thing. I think.

Gordon Cameron

04-30-2008, 12:41 PM

Another deeply disturbing thread in that I find myself sympathizing with Bobjustbob.

Skipping cutscenes is never worthy of a "wow just wow" comment. Games are games. Cutscenes are fine but they are icing.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 12:42 PM

Chuck Jordan

04-30-2008, 12:54 PM

I've got to agree with Tom's take, even though I never played Saint's Row or Crackdown, so I don't have those to compare it to. All I've got to go on are GTA3, the three hours or so I played of Vice City before deciding it wasn't for me, and the deluge of breathless 15/10 reviews I've read of GTA 4.

I only played for a little over an hour so far, finished three "missions" and just started the fourth, which involves me taking a horny woman bowling. That was like an explosive decompression of interest, and sums up my take on the whole GTA series: it's got an astounding amount of stuff, almost all of it mediocre. The driving so far is floaty and unsatisfying, the melee combat is disappointing, the cutscenes are REALLY long and filled with one cliche after the other. The game just seems like a big polish pass on GTA3, with the only saving grace of the series -- the irony -- mostly sucked out of it.

Of course, the big appeal of the game is the same as it's been since GTA3: there's an enormous city, and you can explore almost every part of it. That's what convinced me to buy this one: driving along and suddenly seeing a faithful reproduction of Coney Island come up to your left, right where it's supposed to be, is just plain cool. They've done an incredible job of creating a place. I'm hoping that'll be enough to hold my interest, especially considering that every time you dare to criticize it, you're told that you just haven't gotten to the "good" part yet.

The GTA games are like drunken game design discussions, where you start throwing in the craziest shit; "Let's set a mission in a bowling alley... and let you bowl! Let's have a comedy club, and bring in real comedians!"
Oh, crap. I'm going to have to sit and listen to the Rockstar guys' ideas of funny stand-up comics? Somebody please tell me this is completely optional.

steve

04-30-2008, 12:56 PM

Oh, crap. I'm going to have to sit and listen to the Rockstar guys' ideas of funny stand-up comics? Somebody please tell me this is completely optional.
One of them is Ricky Gervais, so I'd say their idea of funny is pretty good.

Jason McMaster

04-30-2008, 12:58 PM

these are actual comedians

ARogan

04-30-2008, 01:48 PM

Ok about the glass window/door thing.

I also had some issues with this. At first I was trying to pick up the trash cans but then later noticed the green blinking dot on the radar showing me where the bricks are. My first toss was also at the glass door except my brick went THROUGH the door. I could see it inside the store sitting next to the shop owner. I sat there kind of dumbfounded thinking I sure hope there are more bricks. There were and the second one just bounced off the glass (after auto aim lock on corrected me from the door to the window). The 3rd toss finally broke the window.

Also, the shimmering shadows during mid day kind of bother me. I guess I'm getting use to it. Can any of you with the ps3 version tell me if it has the same issue?

I'm only 3.5 hrs and 9 missions into the game. I can't wait to get off of work. I'm putting the kids to bed early tonight!

BlueJackalope

04-30-2008, 01:53 PM

I totally went through the brick popping through the door thing! (EDIT: I think it actually bounces through the top of the doorframe, there is a little gap there.)

It was a weird choice (to have the door unbreakable), they show the whole interaction with the shop keeper through the obviously glass door.

Jazar

04-30-2008, 02:07 PM

You did indeed. JNR: Jazz Nation Radio.

There are two Jazz stations: Fusion FM (jazz fusion) & JNR Jazz Nation Radio (jazz).

There are eighteen radio stations! In addition to the two Jazz stations you have Hip hop, old school hip hop, electro house/dance, ambient/chill, international funk, disco, hardcore punk, classic rock, dancehall, indie rock, reggaeton, dub & reggae, R&B, Eastern European & two talks stations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_4#Soundtrack

The biggest shame I guess is that there is no top 40 (Pop) style station.

z0diac

04-30-2008, 02:10 PM

Also, the shimmering shadows during mid day kind of bother me. I guess I'm getting use to it. Can any of you with the ps3 version tell me if it has the same issue?

Yeah, this is bothersome, and all the visuals seem to be a little hazy and muted as well. The graphics didn't get near the upgrade that I was expecting. I think maybe I'm just more sensitive because I just came off of playing Assassin's Creed.

Charles

04-30-2008, 02:15 PM

The biggest shame I guess is that there is no top 40 style station.

I... don't agree.

Jazar

04-30-2008, 02:17 PM

I... don't agree.

Just trying to see why someone wouldn't like any of the others. I liked Flash FM, Head Radio, CSR, Lips 106 in the previous games and they seem to be missing here.

Shadarr

04-30-2008, 03:20 PM

Also, just to reiterate, I don't think GTA4 is a bad game, I just think it is overrated and most of the reviews I've seen have been far too easy on the parts of it that aren't so good. I'm not sure if this is because the reviewers are Rockstar fanboys caught up in the hype or if it is because there isn't one big broken thing you can point to in GTA4 and say "Ok, this is the problem with the game". My issue with GTA4 isn't one big thing, but a fuckton of tiny little annoying things, none of which alone is a big deal, but taken together start to annoy and detract from the game.
Yeah, right now (about 5 hours in) I don't see how this game can be 10/10 unless it seriously picks up later on. It's good, but far from perfect. A lot of my pre-release fears have been realized: you are forced to do missions in order to do anything in the game. In GTA3 you could just hop in a taxi and go pick up fares, now you have to do a bunch of story missions to unlock the taxi driving (and other things like ambulance and fire missions are gone completely). I've spent a fair bit of time just wandering around, but I end up turning my cellphone back on and doing more scripted missions because I just can't find anything else to do. To steal from Tom, you have to pay a lot of game tax in this game.

MattN

04-30-2008, 03:39 PM

Yeah, right now (about 5 hours in) I don't see how this game can be 10/10 unless it seriously picks up later on. It's good, but far from perfect. A lot of my pre-release fears have been realized: you are forced to do missions in order to do anything in the game. In GTA3 you could just hop in a taxi and go pick up fares, now you have to do a bunch of story missions to unlock the taxi driving (and other things like ambulance and fire missions are gone completely). I've spent a fair bit of time just wandering around, but I end up turning my cellphone back on and doing more scripted missions because I just can't find anything else to do. To steal from Tom, you have to pay a lot of game tax in this game.
I find most reviews to be extremely lax on all GTA games. How can a game like Vice City not have a swim mechanic and instead have you die whenever you go into the water. This didn't stop people from giving it raving reviews, and it is something that I find really breaks the game, especially when boats are thrown into the mix. Its "little" shit like that that makes GTA games in my opinion VERY overrated.
I enjoy all of them to a certain extent (I have yet to beat a GTA game) because of how free you actually are in the universe, and how many different mechanics there are to do whatever you want in the game. I also see WHY people tend to love them so much, and why it probably broke records, but I just feel like what someone else said about it doing everything mediocre is painfully accurate.

guidoguido

04-30-2008, 03:42 PM

Ultimately, I don't really think GTA IV is going to change anyone's minds about the series---I think there's been some improvements overall (the shooting especially) but how un-fun the driving is somewhat counteracts these positives for me.

Though, I do like the world and story enough to play through, I imagine I'll be selling it after beating it once.

steve

04-30-2008, 03:57 PM

I find most reviews to be extremely lax on all GTA games. How can a game like Vice City not have a swim mechanic and instead have you die whenever you go into the water. This didn't stop people from giving it raving reviews, and it is something that I find really breaks the game, especially when boats are thrown into the mix. Its "little" shit like that that makes GTA games in my opinion VERY overrated.
Most people don't get that fixated on something like swimming because it doesn't "break the game;" it's an annoyance. An extremely minor one too, when you consider the 40+ hours of gameplay that doesn't involve swimming. It's not Waterworld, the game.

(See Assassin's Creed for the "swimming problem" as well; I'm sure their level designers were ecstatic they didn't need to deal with Altair being able to swim everywhere.)

People aren't reviewing individual elements of each game; they're looking at the whole. I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem with totally digging a game that does dozens of things in an average or mediocre way. We're lucky if most games do one thing well.

Shadarr

04-30-2008, 04:00 PM

I think they went too far making the driving realistic, but I don't think it's as horrible as it seems at first, it's just different. My initial problems probably stem largely from the fact I'd been playing Burnout Paradise right before. Even after just five hours I'm finding it a lot easier to drive, even in Roman's shitty taxi.

madkevin

04-30-2008, 04:23 PM

I'm coming down hard on the pro-GTA IV side, here. I've been playing it for about fourteen hours over two days and I absolutely love it. For every thing I think they did wrong, like the bowling, there are ten other things I think they got bang-on right. I also think the driving is way, way better in this iteration than any other previous game, although it did take me a good couple of hours to get used to it.

In a game of this magnitude, there's obviously going to be some stuff that pisses people off. But it's definitely a whole-greater-than-its-parts for me. And the feeling that Liberty City is a real, living place is greater even than it was in Assassin's Creed.

If a 10 means a perfect, flawless game, then no GTA IV is not a 10. If a 10 means "every person with a 360 or PS3 should play this", then it most certainly is.

mkozlows

04-30-2008, 04:27 PM

I only played for a little over an hour so far, finished three "missions" and just started the fourth, which involves me taking a horny woman bowling. That was like an explosive decompression of interest, and sums up my take on the whole GTA series: it's got an astounding amount of stuff, almost all of it mediocre. The driving so far is floaty and unsatisfying, the melee combat is disappointing, the cutscenes are REALLY long and filled with one cliche after the other.

QFT. To me the game is a lot like Assassin's Creed: It's a gorgeously realized world with nothing interesting to do. The driving is the best part of the game, but it's worse than the driving in Crackdown, which was by a fair margin the worst part of that game.

Upon further thought, it's really more like Final Fantasy: You engage in hours of tedium for the "reward" of some cliched cutscenes and cheesy conversation.

But maybe it'll get good later, I dunno.

EvilIdler

04-30-2008, 04:39 PM

I noticed something cool during the Concrete Jungle mission, an early one with the rastamon.
I had to retry it a few times, and there were three different ways the conversation on the way went.

First two attempts, I heard two variations on him suspecting the people we were meeting to be up to no good.
The third time, he said it might be the ganja making him paranoid, but we should be prepared in case they're bastards.

They have actually taken time to record variations on in-game conversations, which is nice for
us eternally dysfunctional gamers who never manage most missions on the first attempt.

But that's not all; the actual deal went down in different ways on all occasions. Either they ran away
with the drugs and the money, and I had to gun them down to get it back, or they ran after unsuccessfully trying to rob LJ.
Then I gunned the assholes down in revenge.

NuclearWinter

04-30-2008, 04:43 PM

Yeah, I've seen different dialogue for a bunch of missions when replaying them. It's pretty neat.

Jeff Green

04-30-2008, 04:44 PM

rjcc

04-30-2008, 05:16 PM

rjcc

04-30-2008, 05:20 PM

The music is also disappointing, partly because the song list is so…so…I don't know, full of stuff I don't know or don't care about. But it's mostly disappointing for how it's clogged with so much of Rockstar's funny radio station stuff. Which, granted, is indeed funny, but Rockstar seems not to know what it's like to drive these days. Who doesn't drive listening to his own music instead of a radio station? Saints Row got it right. I'm actually astonished – yes, astonished! – that Grand Theft Auto IV doesn't have a built in media player to let me listen to my own music through the Xbox 360. Last night, before I got the game, I specifically sat down and made a Cruise playlist and a Chase playlist, expecting to be able to use them in GTA4.

you were so psyched you sat down and made these playlists, but not psyched enough to, I dunno, hit the internet and see if it would actually work?

MattKeil

04-30-2008, 05:44 PM

Skipping cutscenes is never worthy of a "wow just wow" comment. Games are games. Cutscenes are fine but they are icing.

When the complaint is that he doesn't understand what's going on, it certainly is worthy of such a comment.

Also, this is one of the best-written games I've ever played, with some very well-realized characters, and I don't see why anyone would want to skip the cutscenes. It's like just hitting "Next" on the DVD remote if the first few lines of dialogue in a movie don't grab your attention. I know everyone has self-diagnosed ADD these days, but come on.

chandra

04-30-2008, 05:49 PM

Saint's Row and Crackdown comparisons will be the new Quake/Unreal wars, so I'm not touching that, but haven't the GTAs always been push-to-sprint controls?
Aha! I loved Unreal and never got the hang of Quake and am so far quite pleased with the game. Maybe that just makes me lame, but at least I can throw a brick through a window.

Tom Chick

04-30-2008, 06:06 PM

you were so psyched you sat down and made these playlists, but not psyched enough to, I dunno, hit the internet and see if it would actually work?

Well, for starters, I'd intentionally avoided reading any preview coverage. Also, didn't at least one of the previous GTAs have a "Your Music" radio station that would run through your own MP3s? I could be mistaken about that, but I maintain that not having some sort of built in hook to the PS3 and 360 media players is a surprising omission.

But at least I've got a Cruise and Chase playlist for when I go back to Saints Row!

I don't see why anyone would want to skip the cutscenes.

There's no need to be so dismissive of BJB's idiosyncrasies. Some people play GTA4 for the sandbox of it all. You and I think they're missing out, but it's an entirely valid approach to not care about the storyline and to just want to drive around and wreck stuff. How else can you explain why Crackdown is so utterly awesome?

That said, I'm losing interest in the story as Rockstar sacrifices narrative integrity at the altar of their bad mission design. Poor Niko, haunted by the horrors of war, but perfectly willing to indulge in a little wholesale slaughter when Rockstar can't think of any other way to fold action into their missions. I hope this isn't a spoiler, but I just had to kill about twenty federal agents.

For those of you complaining about the driving, rest assured that it really does make a difference once you get better cars. I just had a sweet little Corvette-a-like that I was going to make a point to preserve in front of my apartment. Unfortunately, some fucker stole it while I was on a date! (Note to self: Be sure to pull up to the destination arrow in car instead of parking and then walking up to it...)

-Tom

Brian Rucker

04-30-2008, 06:32 PM

Ah, great. I was kinda hoping you might be able to actually kinda guide the storyline a bit? I remember Niko saying something like, "Me? I just want to make the right decisions." Evidently...that's not up to us.

Zuwadza

04-30-2008, 06:40 PM

I'm getting really annoyed with the fact that if some officer manager to get near you it's pretty much game over. I just punched an officer in the face and tried to steal his car, I'm pretty sure resisting arrest isn't out of the question. I'm also getting really annoyed about losing all your weapons when you get arrested.

Anyone have a good tip on how to acquire a police car without too much trouble?

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 06:48 PM

I'm getting really annoyed with the fact that if some officer manager to get near you it's pretty much game over. I just punched an officer in the face and tried to steal his car, I'm pretty sure resisting arrest isn't out of the question. I'm also getting really annoyed about losing all your weapons when you get arrested.

I've been "caught" by the fuckin' pigs in GTA4 and been in the "hands up" mode and managed to bolt and get away, but I'm not sure exactly what I did to make that happen.

Hudson

04-30-2008, 07:00 PM

You pressed A. The first time you go into the hands up animation it should've told you that.

SR is a better GTA4 than GTA4, but GTA4 might be a better game.

Wholly Schmidt

04-30-2008, 07:01 PM

I think you just press A to resist arrest. It was another one of those once in a lifetime tutorial tips. I think that may be my biggest rant for the whole game. No meaningful manual, and a retarded in game tip system.

McCrank

04-30-2008, 07:06 PM

Im %34 done with the game according to the stats. This will be the farthest I've made it in a GTA game since GTA 3. Ill mimic most of the impressions here by saying, the city is simply amazing, however the beauty only feels skin deep...

I will say, my worst fears are coming true, those fears being 45 minute long missions with no type of checkpoints, and even though the mission repeating does help, some of the missions are just too long to have so many random elements in there to kill you without having a checkpoint.

For some reason, I dont think this game is as "good" as Saints Row. I'm not sure if I can put my finger on it, but something is missing. I think the city, while amazingly detailed overall, lacks any kind of personality, whereas the cities in Saint's Row and Crackdown had clear distinctions between areas.

-Chris

Tom Chick

04-30-2008, 07:08 PM

Good lord, I don't think I ever got a tip to press A to resist arrest. I figured rebuying weapons was the game's main money sink, since I haven't found anything else to do with my filthy lucre. Buying clothes, which I actually enjoyed in Saints Row but couldn't care less about here, sure as heck isn't cutting it as a money sink.

-Tom

steve

04-30-2008, 07:38 PM

Mink Staccato

04-30-2008, 07:42 PM

And one of my favorite-favorite-favorite things in prior games was the missions where you steal a list of cars and deliver them in exchange for some sweet-sweet ride. I haven't gone through the game enough to know if there is a mission like this (and don't tell me), but if there is not, then all I can say is... Damn! And I suspect it's not in there, because we no longer get the names of the vehicles, so how would I identify the vehicles to steal? Double damn!!!

This is in the game. Talk to Brucie.

***SPOILER***

Awwwww man! This ISN'T in the game. What Brucie does is e-mails you about one car, sends you a picture, tells you exactly where it is and then you go get it...

Wait, he E-Mails you where the car is? The one that's driving around the city?!?

And then it's automatically on your GPS?!? WTF? Is this person signaling to a everyone with a GPS system within in a thirty mile radius to please steal their car?

Damn. That's just another silly fetch mission.

No, what I was talking about was getting a list of vehicles so that, while I'm driving around doing other things, I can see, oh, an ice-cream truck for example and then go, "Hey! I need that!"

And then I chase them down, jack it, deliver the vehicle and cross it off the list.

I know, I know... It's been done before twice in GTA (or is it three times now...), but I loved those missions. Some of my favorite parts.

Oh well... Chalk it up to another missing element in IV.

With that said, I'm enjoying the game quite a bit. Maybe just not as much as the last one, which is too bad.

It's still pretty though.

-Mink-

Adree

04-30-2008, 07:54 PM

You can do Vigilante missions by stealing a cop car, parking, and using the top left button to access the police computer.

Equis

04-30-2008, 08:01 PM

Is there a way to do Taxi missions without resorting to Roman's shitty cab service?

Actually, is there a list of all the side missions you can do? The main questline seems to be taking its time to dole them out and as much as I like Nico, I don't like following the plot when all I wanna do is explore the city.

That being said, I agree with most of Tom's points, but I'm enjoying it so far because the city is beautiful and I really love the exploration part of the gameplay first. That and Nico is kinda sympathetic, so far.

Coca Cola Zero

04-30-2008, 08:25 PM

You pressed A. The first time you go into the hands up animation it should've told you that.

I'm sure it "told me" but due to putting the tips way the fuck in the corner where I'm never looking and the fact that most of the buttons are reused for many things, I never saw that tip. The way the tips are doled out both in terms of UI and in terms of game progression is another thing that leaves you wondering wtf they were thinking.

Talisker

04-30-2008, 08:27 PM

So... I've gotten reasonably OK at driving, but I'm having a heck of a time with...

MILD SPOILER

... Brucie's race mission, where I'm supposed to finish first, but there's so many ways to get screwed, that it's become very frustrating. So, I figure I'll try cheating -- before pulling up to the start position, I get out of the car, wander up to the other cars waiting to go, and start shooting out tires. "RACE SABOTAGED", the game says, and counts it as a failure.

God forbid I try using a slightly non-standard solution in a sandbox game.

I really like everything else in the game tons, it's unfortunate that 90% of the game (the driving) is the least good part.

ElGuapo

04-30-2008, 08:31 PM

You know, in the previous GTA games, and in Saint's Row, I've seen people commit crimes. I've seen people mostly carjacking each other, but sometimes random fights. I remember some gang wars going on in GTA III.

Has anyone seen any random crimes done by the AI?

MyNameIsWill

04-30-2008, 08:32 PM

RE: Saints Row

I think Saints Row nailed a lot of the "fun" in the previous GTA gameplay, and made it really accessible, but GTA IV really does move the open-world genre forward.

That said, I'm still very much looking forward to starting random chaos in Saints Row 2.

Talisker

04-30-2008, 08:33 PM

Has anyone seen any random crimes done by the AI?
I ran up to a car, smashed the window with a bat, the driver jumped out to fight me -- and before either of us threw a punch, two other AI guys ran up and beat the crap out of him.

rjcc

04-30-2008, 08:34 PM

Well, for starters, I'd intentionally avoided reading any preview coverage. Also, didn't at least one of the previous GTAs have a "Your Music" radio station that would run through your own MP3s? I could be mistaken about that, but I maintain that not having some sort of built in hook to the PS3 and 360 media players is a surprising omission.

-Tom

but you read all of those positive reviews and STILL didn't know that?

Adree

04-30-2008, 08:44 PM

JPR

04-30-2008, 08:57 PM

Has anyone seen any random crimes done by the AI?

Just a few minutes ago, I was looking for a car to steal, and two NPCs ran up to a car at a stop light. They opened both doors and threw the occupants out. The 4 of them started to fight, and I swooped in and stole the car. As I drove away, one of them yelled, "I'll get it next time, motherfucker."

I have also seen two people bump into each other on the street, then one of them pull a gun and shoot the other one as he ran away.

malkav11

04-30-2008, 09:26 PM

So, I loved Crackdown and all, and actually beat it, the only open-world game of the sort that I can recall doing that with other than Bully. But I'm unclear as to what people are wanting GTA to have learned from it, other than maybe the way the targeting worked. What made Crackdown such glorious fun for me was the superhumanity of the PC. GTA is not about being superhuman. It never has been, and I don't particularly want it to start. (I'd love a Crackdown 2, I just wouldn't want to lose GTA to it.) And I would have probably hated the completely directionless structure of play if I hadn't had the superhuman powers I did, so I wouldn't want that applied to GTA either.

The things Saints Row has to teach are a little more obvious, although I remain mystified by why people like the lock-on-less shooting. To me it has all the issues the manual aiming weapons in previous GTA games had on consoles, except spread to every single weapon in the game.

Edit: I should point out that I don't have and have not played GTAIV. I have a lot of other stuff to play that fits that mold, so spending $60 to supersede those games seems silly to me.

Lizard_King

04-30-2008, 09:35 PM

The biggest issue the aiming has for me is how the auto lock on disappears when your target is in a vehicle (or, god forbid, you are in one). Everything else I am getting used to, I think, but that is very jarring in the place where I need shoot from the hip accuracy the most.

Tom Chick

04-30-2008, 10:24 PM

but you read all of those positive reviews and STILL didn't know that?

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the fact that I put together a couple of playlists for the game, but, no, I didn't read "all those postitive reviews". Why, do they all mention that you can't use your own music ingame?

-Tom

Tom Chick

04-30-2008, 10:26 PM

As for the vehicle and weapon interaction (i.e. shooting at vehicles or shooting from inside another vehicle), this is absolutely another area where Rockstar should have stolen directly from Saints Row.

I'm currently stuck on a mission that involves gunning down a fleeing car, and it's a real freakin' pain to have to repeatedly play through the busywork that actually leads up the chase. You're losing me, GTA4... :(

-Tom

SqueakyFoo

04-30-2008, 10:35 PM

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the fact that I put together a couple of playlists for the game, but, no, I didn't read "all those postitive reviews". Why, do they all mention that you can't use your own music ingame?

-Tom
It's really strange that they didn't have custom playlists as GTA3 was (IIRC) one of the first xbox 1 games to support a custom soundtrack. Vice City on xbox supported that option as well and they both definately had that feature on the PC. Disappointing that GTA4 doesn't.

Zuwadza

04-30-2008, 10:38 PM

I agree with the chases being really frustrating. They'd be a lot more fun if you could recruit people who could shoot while you drive, or at least restart directly before the chase so you don't have to drive halfway across town to read some dude's email every time.

Why does Rockstar hate fun?

Adree

04-30-2008, 10:45 PM

During one of the chase missions the car I was chasing skidded and dinged the back of a truck and it opened up and a bunch of barrels plopped out into my path, that was neat. I've found blowing tires helps during weapon chases, you won't stop them but you can make them smash into stuff enough where you can catch up.

Tom Chick

04-30-2008, 11:05 PM

Ooh, yeah, I saw that, too, Adree! In the same chase, a bunch of logs rolled off the back of a logging truck. I wondered if they were scripted things and I meant to try them again "in the wild".

As for shooting tires, I'd love to, but from inside a car, I consider myself lucky to just hit within the general vicinity of the chasee. Hey, Rockstar, normally a reticle is there to help you aim before you start shooting! All I can do is basically spray ammo and hope something happens.

Which reminds me, what's the deal with ammo? Unanswered Question #84: When and how do I stock up on bullets?

-Tom

Hudson

04-30-2008, 11:06 PM

I'm currently stuck on a mission that involves gunning down a fleeing car, and it's a real freakin' pain to have to repeatedly play through the busywork that actually leads up the chase. You're losing me, GTA4... :(

SR had this problem, too(highlighted in SR by the airport mission and in GTA4, thus far, by the mission where you have to follow someone but not spook them), but yeah, they really did a terrible job with the controls. Why are two face buttons wasted on "turn on brights" and "cinematic camera"(why is this a function at all, just keep it as a camera option like previous games?)? Make one of them a toggle for free aim or something. Also for putting accelerate on a trigger they don't appear to be taking much advantage of it's analog nature.

The way sprint and accelerate aren't the same button is offputing, the way shooting in a car is now pretty much impossible(I think I preferred the terrible SA system to this) and also has a fire button that isn't the same as the fire button any other time... (Spoiler, I guess, but does that mean you can't fire out of a stationary cop car?)

I love that like 20% through the game they randomly tell you that they halfassedly stole SR's really nice weapon management system but mapped it to the D-paid and there isn't a holster button. The criminally short manual is cute by staying in character, but, um, this is an absurdly complex game. God forbid I ever take an extended break from it, if you forget one of the trillion context-sensitive special commands you're fucked.

Again, GTA4 is a tremendous achievement in open world sandbox development and Rockstar has significantly better writers and VO people, but it's like they saw how well SR managed to polish all the awesome parts about GTA3 and were like "Well, let's make sure we don't do any of that".

SR's approach to minigames was "What is awesome" while GTA4 was clearly going for realism... but if I wanted to play darts with my friends I could do that in THE REAL WORLD. Which has girls, and booze that actually gets you drunk, and all that other stuff. I always try to do the non-minigame activities simply because I really don't see the appeal of video game adaptions of pool et al.

Tom- You should get access to a gunstore really quite early in the game and unlike previous GTAs you don't pay Price N for Y bullets of X, in GTA4 you buy the gun for a lot of money then spent much less on ammunition by the clip(another good idea from SR)
Does anyone know if Rockstar is going for social commentary with the pricing? I spent $100 at a diner, 17 9mm rounds costs $50, etc. I'm not sure what gameplay benefit is had by jacking up those prices.

Adree

04-30-2008, 11:16 PM

Does anyone know if Rockstar is going for social commentary with the pricing? I spent $100 at a diner, 17 9mm rounds costs $50, etc. I'm not sure what gameplay benefit is had by jacking up those prices.

The molotov cocktails for $500 a pop made me laugh. I did notice that the gas prices in Liberty are a few cents cheaper than real life gas prices in Atlanta. :(

Tom Chick

04-30-2008, 11:21 PM

Hudson, ah, that makes sense RE: the ammo. I actually haven't been to a gunstore since the game introduced it because a) I was getting plenty of ammo during battles and b) I just unlocked, uh, the unlockable thing that makes it unnecessary to go to a gunstore except for very specific needs.

Okay, since everyone's been pretty good about spoilers -- I'm still scared to go into the other threads -- does anyone have any good tips about how to make money in, say, the first third of the game?

-Tom

Adree

04-30-2008, 11:28 PM

Brucie.

Do his story missions, collect cars for him at TW@T. I have 14 grand right now and I just started the second area.

Jeff Green

04-30-2008, 11:28 PM

I have discovered tonight that I drive a million times (I counted!) better when in first-person mode. Ever since switching, I haven't failed one mission yet that involved chasing another vehicle. Yay!

MattKeil

04-30-2008, 11:44 PM

That's an oddity to me, then. I prefer 1st person in just about every racing game I've ever played, but in GTA I want more of a sense of what's around my car at all times, and 1st person just doesn't provide it.

Cronox

04-30-2008, 11:57 PM

I vastly prefer the first person view in this, which is odd as I have always played this type of game from the third person view. I switched to first person quite early on (as I was having trouble seeing when driving up inclines) and have found all the driving based missions a breeze since doing so.

BobJustBob

05-01-2008, 12:01 AM

It's probably because of the shitty regular camera that never gives you a straight-ahead view of the road.

MattKeil

05-01-2008, 12:18 AM

I have no problems with the standard medium chase camera view. Going up an incline makes it tough to see what's ahead, but a quick flick of the R-stick solves that.

Chuck Jordan

05-01-2008, 01:10 AM

I think I need Matt or someone else who's seen the fully-realized glory of this game to let me know when exactly (spoilers if necessary) the breaking point is. I'm about four or five hours in, having finished about 10 missions, and I want to know when I can officially give up on it without feeling like I missed out on a phenomenon.

rjcc

05-01-2008, 01:11 AM

Chuck Jordan

05-01-2008, 01:30 AM

why not just stop now? you're not enjoying it, you can probably still sell it for full price on eBay.
For exactly the reason I said -- I don't want to feel like I missed out on a phenomenon. The reviews of this game have been worthless, because it's just people stumbling over themselves to say that it's flawless and give it a perfect score. And the ones that acknowledge it's got problems, still say that it fixes the problems with GTA3, and that "it gets better."

I've been hearing for years how influential the GTA series has been on videogames, and I want to see what the fuss is about. I've been disappointed in the past games, but just watching a coworker play a few minutes of this one, driving around and starting explosions and such, was compelling enough to convince me to pick it up. According to the game's stats, I'm not even 5% into it yet. I just want somebody to say at what point the game turned into a 15/10 awesome A++ would totally carjack again experience for them.

rjcc

05-01-2008, 01:35 AM

For exactly the reason I said -- I don't want to feel like I missed out on a phenomenon. The reviews of this game have been worthless, because it's just people stumbling over themselves to say that it's flawless and give it a perfect score. And the ones that acknowledge it's got problems, still say that it fixes the problems with GTA3, and that "it gets better."

I've been hearing for years how influential the GTA series has been on videogames, and I want to see what the fuss is about. I've been disappointed in the past games, but just watching a coworker play a few minutes of this one, driving around and starting explosions and such, was compelling enough to convince me to pick it up. According to the game's stats, I'm not even 5% into it yet. I just want somebody to say at what point the game turned into a 15/10 awesome A++ would totally carjack again experience for them.

The game is what it is, if you're not having fun, don't play it. It's not very different from the previous ones in the series. Much like the jump from Halo 2 to Halo 3, this is basically Super GTA.

It's the same game, but with the extra 30 layers of polish that never would've been possible on previous systems, and more attention to detail on the story (and in this case, multiplayer for the first time on consoles).

If that's not appealing to you, put the sticks down.

I enjoyed this game when it was roughly the same playing top down ten years ago, if I hadn't liked it then, I don't see why I'd suddenly feel the need to pick it up now.

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 01:51 AM

rjcc

05-01-2008, 01:59 AM

Chuck, I can't speak for the folks who are breathlessly enthusiastic, but from my own slightly disappointed perspective, I'd say you should probably stick with it until a little ways past the first major plot point, which involves the turning point of the Vlad storyline. You'll know it when you reach it, and it's probably at around the 12% completion point. Beyond that, it gets a bit more compelling as it starts folding in a few new gameplay mechanics and introducing new characters If it's not working for you by the time the second safehouse is introduced, you've probably seen all you're going to want to see.

But it's definitely a slow start, so I understand your frustration. I'm really surprised that Rockstar didn't make it more accessible by -- among other things -- giving it a better opening. And I'm definitely surprised at all the wildly enthusiastic and apparently uncritical reviews.

-Tom

P.S. God help me, but I played darts tonight until I got the Achievement for a 180 point round.

how do you know the reviews were uncritical, but you didn't know what was and wasn't in the game, or anything about the control scheme? Did you read the reviews or only the scores?

I disagree that the pacing of the game is slow, I would call it, measured. You don't get 100 things dumped on you at once, but at regular intervals that make sense. Of course, if you're busy kvetching about why you're not seeing the rest of the city and how bad the music is, you'll never catch any of the prompts or notice which way you're supposed to be going. The minimap/cell phone graphics is poor, it was much easier to see just based on the coloring back in VC and SA, but that's the only thing about the game that is flawed beyond explanation.

the lack of "dizzying vistas"? I'm a huge crackdown and I enjoyed SR, but their landscapes don't have shit on Liberty City. It's pretty easy to start up a multiplayer game and grab a helicopter if you're not farenough in the game to take a helitour. Also, I'm not sure if you know, but you don't have to drive everywhere, that's what taxi's are for.

SRFisher

05-01-2008, 02:28 AM

It's a sandbox game and you've only played for 4 hours. Maybe give it a little time and unlock some stuff before giving up.
In every other GTA game, within that 4 hours I discovered gobs upon gobs of activities. The density of cool shit per virtual square metre was super high. The GTA4 offerings (so far) seem sparse and lacklustre.

Re: Collection tasks. I found out about the radioactive pigeons in another thread. I don't yet know whether it's the reasonable system of a prize for every 10-20 birds, or whether it's the San Andreas "You Must Buy A Hint Guide" system that rewards you only when you get all 200 of them. Anyone know for sure?

Also, someone was asking whether canceling or refusing a date reduces your standing with a person. It does. I refused a date with Michelle and got docked a popularity percentage. Don't get too fond of exploring your sandbox -- the ball and chain is just waiting to yank you back!

(I sound more bitter than I really am. The game is pretty good, and there's big pockets of awesomeness. But it's very sad when they fix some of the flaws from previous versions, while blithely ignoring the others.)

gamadict

05-01-2008, 02:31 AM

The best place to get ammo/guns early on in the game is to go into the hospital, shoot some people to get the attention of the cops, then keep shooting them in the head as they walk in until you die, occasionally coming out from behind cover to collect pickups and grab a soda. It can take a while, but you only need to do it once or twice since you should never let the police take you alive. Once you get up to 4 stars, you'll start getting plenty of shotgun/SMG/assault rifle drops.

On that note, what do you need to do to get 5 stars? I've massacred 30 or 40 cops collecting ammo, bodies piling up everywhere, and I can't seem to get them really angry. Maybe shoot down a helicopter or something

Coca Cola Zero

05-01-2008, 02:46 AM

how do you know the reviews were uncritical, but you didn't know what was and wasn't in the game, or anything about the control scheme? Did you read the reviews or only the scores?

You're really going to keep harping on the playlist issue, huh? What's your hang-up with that? Tom's issue there is completely valid. The lack of ability to do custom playlists is downright shocking considering the older GTA games on the Xbox 1 had this ability and the 360 music player integration is way more fully realized than it was on the Xbox 1, and so many other games have done a good job in this area on the 360.

I disagree that the pacing of the game is slow, I would call it, measured. You don't get 100 things dumped on you at once, but at regular intervals that make sense.

I disagree with your disagreement. I don't mind the pacing of the missions being "measured", but in the earlier GTA games and in SR, etc, you can just start doing a lot of fun things like side missions at your own pace if you want to, but GTA4 kneecaps you a lot in this area. It isn't so much about game pacing as it is restricting the sandbox too much to start. It really is a baffling direction to take the series, IMO.

rjcc

05-01-2008, 03:07 AM

You're really going to keep harping on the playlist issue, huh? What's your hang-up with that? Tom's issue there is completely valid. The lack of ability to do custom playlists is downright shocking considering the older GTA games on the Xbox 1 had this ability and the 360 music player integration is way more fully realized than it was on the Xbox 1, and so many other games have done a good job in this area on the 360.

I disagree with your disagreement. I don't mind the pacing of the missions being "measured", but in the earlier GTA games and in SR, etc, you can just start doing a lot of fun things like side missions at your own pace if you want to, but GTA4 kneecaps you a lot in this area. It isn't so much about game pacing as it is restricting the sandbox too much to start. It really is a baffling direction to take the series, IMO.

I wasn't talking about the playlist issue. There are many things he's referenced which were covered in every review I read of the game, but and criticisms he's had that were mentioned. If he's going to say that he didn't know about them because of a personal media blackout, but at the same time discredit other writers for being "uncritical", I'd just like to know how both situations can exist at once.

Sorry if I have a problem with bullshit.

as far as being "kneecapped", GTA gives you multiplayer in a full city from the start, which you didn't get in earlier games or SR. You can have all the sandbox fun you want, complete with cops and peds if you do/don't want.

or of course, you could ignore that option, and choose the one that has none of what you claim to want, then complain about what you want not being there, which is clearly more fun if your objective is writing a long essay about why everyone else is wrong.

and btw, I'd like a list of the "many" games that have included custom media integration beyond what the dashboard offers.

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 03:40 AM

how do you know the reviews were uncritical, but you didn't know what was and wasn't in the game, or anything about the control scheme? Did you read the reviews or only the scores?

Neither. I see the thread titles in this forum, I've read excerpts that have been forwarded to me, I've talked to people who work in the business and tell me about the reviews, and I checked out how it was doing on Gamerankings on launch day. If you're going to tell me there were critical points raised in the reviews based on Rockstar's hosted 5-day pre-launch sessions in San Francisco, then I'll just have to take your word for it. Far be it from me to draw conclusions based on scores, but if a 99.8% on Gamerankings includes reviews that are as critical of the game as some of us have been in this thread, I'll be suitably surprised.

As for the personal slights and your patronizing implications that I don't know how to play the game, give me a break.

-Tom

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 03:42 AM

I refused a date with Michelle and got docked a popularity percentage. Don't get too fond of exploring your sandbox -- the ball and chain is just waiting to yank you back!

I wish the game would let me know what I'm going to get from maintaining a relationship. Because right now, the dating stuff seems like nothing more than a pointless time sink. I get that the dude relationships unlock new features, as the early cutscene makes clear, but at this point, I'm tempted to just ditch the whole woman thing. So to speak.

-Tom

Mordrak

05-01-2008, 04:21 AM

I wish the game would let me know what I'm going to get from maintaining a relationship. Because right now, the dating stuff seems like nothing more than a pointless time sink. I get that the dude relationships unlock new features, as the early cutscene makes clear, but at this point, I'm tempted to just ditch the whole woman thing. So to speak.

-Tom

In San Andreas, the girlfriends didn't do much either. Two of them were explicitly tied to progress. Supposedly there were 6 total. After a certain percentage, they'd give you keys to their car and at 100% usually a unique outfit. I wouldn't be surprised if GTAIV is similar. I skipped them, except for the required ones.

I did enjoy Catlina's dialog a lot though. But she was more fleshed out since you went on missions with her.

Soldats

05-01-2008, 04:36 AM

I wish the game would let me know what I'm going to get from maintaining a relationship. Because right now, the dating stuff seems like nothing more than a pointless time sink. I get that the dude relationships unlock new features, as the early cutscene makes clear, but at this point, I'm tempted to just ditch the whole woman thing. So to speak.

-Tom

I don't have any concrete information (and I wouldn't want to risk spoilers anyways), but I think maintaining a healthy relationship with ladies after the first [easy] gal will open up benefits similar to what you get from being on good terms with your guy friends.

ChiTownBluesFan

05-01-2008, 04:56 AM

In San Andreas, the girlfriends didn't do much either. Two of them were explicitly tied to progress. Supposedly there were 6 total. After a certain percentage, they'd give you keys to their car and at 100% usually a unique outfit. I wouldn't be surprised if GTAIV is similar. I skipped them, except for the required ones.

I did enjoy Catlina's dialog a lot though. But she was more fleshed out since you went on missions with her.
Well, that's just not true.

In San Andreas, getting to a certain percentage w/ the Ladies unlocked free health care (if you were taken to a hospital), 'free' arrests (either no money/weapons taken if you were arrested, or not as much), free car repairs (although just at one garage) - I think that's it.

Some of the women in IV, from what I understand, have similar benefits. Haven't gotten that far yet, tho.

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 05:22 AM

Okay, good to know the woman thing might be worth pursuing. FWIW, I like what Rockstar does with the first "tutorial" relationship. I spent a good part of the evening getting frustrated with a really aggravating combat mission. Seeing where the Michelle relationship goes pretty much made up for it.

Also, here's a quick tip to really show off what Rockstar can accomplish with their awesome city. Set a way point on the other end of someplace you haven't seen yet, or maybe just across the length of Algonquin, or even just someplace you need to reach that's a good distance away. Get a cab. Then hit the back button until you're in the cinematic view. Now dial up a radio station you haven't listened to yet and just sit back and watch. Most cutscenes wish they could be this good.

(And if you cross from one island to another, you'll get the It'll Cost Ya achievement. And if you use Roman's surly driver to do it, it won't cost you!)

-Tom

UncleSmoothie

05-01-2008, 05:44 AM

Also, someone was asking whether canceling or refusing a date reduces your standing with a person. It does. I refused a date with Michelle and got docked a popularity percentage. Don't get too fond of exploring your sandbox -- the ball and chain is just waiting to yank you back!

If you want to spend time just exploring, put the phone into sleep mode from the phone options; you won't get any story developments or invitations from anyone.

I noted this in another thread, but last night (about an hour or so of missions after the Vlad "pivot point" that has been noted in this thread) I got to a point where my nagging doubts about the game had been vanquished.

I've got no shortage of things to do. I feel like I have a handle on the driving. I don't pass every mission on the first try, but if I did I wouldn't feel any sense of accomplishment for it. I'm exploring and looking for pigeons. I'm doing side quests for a few minor characters. It really feels like GTA.

I've still got gripes, to be sure, but I'm absolutely having fun and I've got no reservations about the overall quality of the game.

Wholly Schmidt

05-01-2008, 05:49 AM

Also, here's a quick tip to really show off what Rockstar can accomplish with their awesome city. Set a way point on the other end of someplace you haven't seen yet, or maybe just across the length of Algonquin, or even just someplace you need to reach that's a good distance away. Get a cab. Then hit the back button until you're in the cinematic view. Now dial up a radio station you haven't listened to yet and just sit back and watch. Most cutscenes wish they could be this good.

(And if you cross from one island to another, you'll get the It'll Cost Ya achievement. And if you use Roman's surly driver to do it, it won't cost you!)

-Tom
Fixed.

Moore

05-01-2008, 06:04 AM

Keep an eye out for little green people on your minimap, there are some pretty neat random missions to stumble onto.

Omniscia

05-01-2008, 06:14 AM

If I put the phone on sleep mode, does it automatically resume sending me the calls and messages from the point I turned it off, when I reactivate it? I don't want to miss anything, or lose any relationship points, but right now all I want to do is play some darts, bowl a few frames, and cruise around taking in the sights. Oh, yes, and try and beat the high score in Qub3d.

UncleSmoothie

05-01-2008, 06:17 AM

Sleep mode, as far as I can tell, just puts the story and all of your relationships on "pause"; you don't miss anything, and you can explore as much as you like.

Omniscia

05-01-2008, 06:31 AM

Oh, good. I was ready to chuck that phone off the pier. If only I had that option...

WarrenM

05-01-2008, 06:41 AM

Keep an eye out for little green people on your minimap, there are some pretty neat random missions to stumble onto.
Yeah, I just stumbled across one of those this morning! There might be more depth to this game yet...

Kevin Grey

05-01-2008, 06:41 AM

Any way to drop a weapon? I got assaulted as soon as I entered a strip club and I think it's because they "detected" a knife on me even though I didn't have it in my hand at the time.

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 06:43 AM

BTW, someone on the forum mentioned that you can download better wallpaper for you phone. That was, at least as far as I've gotten in the game, a filthy lie! I tried to download new wallpapers and ring tones from the web, but my phone doesn't support these features! Thanks, Roman, for the crappy phone.

At any rate, the unreadable freakin' display is getting really annoying. It seems like it's a 3D object affected by lighting, so I've been able to make out what it says sometimes by moving the camera around. But the frickin' thing is like going back trying to play a Gameboy Advance before the backlit display was built in... :(

Also, someone just told me to get a suit, but I was already wearing one! OMG, teh scripting is broken!!!1!

-Tom

thamer

05-01-2008, 07:01 AM

Your supposed to get an upgraded phone but I still haven't. I hit the second part of the story I think. *shrug*.

Rockstar must have gotten those reviewers totally drunk and gave them lots of drugs for them to hand out a 10. It's way too high for this game. This is certainly an 8 or 9 though.

Omniscia

05-01-2008, 07:10 AM

Rockstar must have gotten those reviewers totally drunk and gave them lots of drugs for them to hand out a 10. It's way too high for this game. This is certainly an 8 or 9 though.

As IMDb noted in yesterday's Studio Roundup (http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2008-04-30/), "...some reviewers have described [it] as the best game title in history."

The best? In history?

UncleSmoothie

05-01-2008, 07:14 AM

I'll tell you what, annoying quirks in the gameplay aside, I've been bowled over by the voice work and writing in the cutscenes, especially the ones with Faustin.

madkevin

05-01-2008, 07:14 AM

It's the highest rated title ever (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/933037.asp) on GameRankings as of right this second.

Zuwadza

05-01-2008, 07:14 AM

Keep an eye out for little green people on your minimap, there are some pretty neat random missions to stumble onto.

Little green men on my mini-map?

thamer

05-01-2008, 07:18 AM

If it helps any IGN's guide (http://guides.ign.com/guides/827005/) to those who are having trouble.

madkevin

05-01-2008, 07:19 AM

Little green arrows, actually. Although now that I think about it, one of the arrows might have been blue. So far they've only popped up when I've been on foot, and they represent little interactions you can have with pedestrians. I've only done two so far, but the first one was hilarious.

Wholly Schmidt

05-01-2008, 07:21 AM

They're little blue stick men. I've only found two, it was the same guy with two different encounters so far.

forgeforsaken

05-01-2008, 07:22 AM

I haven't seen any yet :(

Omniscia

05-01-2008, 07:24 AM

I saw one! I don't want to spoil it, but it was easy money...

BDGE

05-01-2008, 07:29 AM

I am driver. I go left, I go right, I go straight ahead. That's it. (http://www.quartertothree.com/inhouse/news/435/)

I know it's being discussed a LOT, but these two actions are, bar none, the MOST DIFFICULT actions to perform in this game. I've failed numerous chase missions because my brain still can't solve the simple puzzle of brake, drift, and turning through corners. I was willing to forgive the game initially because I just had to condition myself to the wonky physics and keep optimism that modern cars handle less like beached hovercraft.

7 hours in and I still fail relentlessly at these two basic actions, I've even opted to not bother driving to destinations when possible to stem the aggravation, and isn't that like the whole point of the game?

WarrenM

05-01-2008, 07:35 AM

I'll tell you what, annoying quirks in the gameplay aside, I've been bowled over by the voice work and writing in the cutscenes, especially the ones with Faustin.
I agree. The voice acting in this game is top notch. I'm loving the cut scenes!

I know it's being discussed a LOT, but these two actions are, bar none, the MOST DIFFICULT actions to perform in this game. I've failed numerous chase missions because my brain still can't solve the simple puzzle of brake, drift, and turning through corners. I was willing to forgive the game initially because I just had to condition myself to the wonky physics and keep optimism that modern cars handle less like beached hovercraft.
Honestly, I've almost nailed the driving. I can do some Hollywood style car chase cornering with pretty good regularity. Like I said before, when you're approaching a corner - tap the right shoulder button and turn into the corner, then hit the gas and start correcting the car. That works for me 80% of the time. The A button seems to be useless even though I think it's supposed to perform the same function.