Grand Theft Auto: Arrested [Archive] - Page 2

Cal

05-01-2008, 08:13 AM

BTW, someone on the forum mentioned that you can download better wallpaper for you phone. That was, at least as far as I've gotten in the game, a filthy lie! I tried to download new wallpapers and ring tones from the web, but my phone doesn't support these features! Thanks, Roman, for the crappy phone.

At any rate, the unreadable freakin' display is getting really annoying. It seems like it's a 3D object affected by lighting, so I've been able to make out what it says sometimes by moving the camera around. But the frickin' thing is like going back trying to play a Gameboy Advance before the backlit display was built in... :(

Also, someone just told me to get a suit, but I was already wearing one! OMG, teh scripting is broken!!!1!

-Tom

You can get different and better phones later on, yes you can download wallpapers and ringtones to them, but the best part is the new phones are a million times more readable than the crappy one your get for free, its a relief to not strain to read the dark grey font on the grey background once you get the new phone.

forgeforsaken

05-01-2008, 08:23 AM

Super useful map
http://grandtheftauto.ign.com/maps/1/Liberty-City-Map

Potential spoilers, but just don't click the mission icons. I'd turn off the starts too. Good for finding pigeons, locations etc.

ElGuapo

05-01-2008, 08:28 AM

As IMDb noted in yesterday's Studio Roundup (http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2008-04-30/), "...some reviewers have described [it] as the best game title in history."

The best? In history?

X-COM wants a word, homies.

forgeforsaken

05-01-2008, 08:31 AM

X-COM wants a word, homies.
Seems like a chance to post this gem again.

56
PlayStation GamePro
You have to be a major sim-freak to like X-Com. It's an interesting and complex game about planet colonizing, but the extensive manuals and one-dimensional music really bore you to alien tears after a while. Still, if you ever wanted to practice you won brand of illegal alien importing, this is a good game to start with.

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 08:32 AM

I don't know if any of this will help anyone, but I'll write it out for fun anyway.

On driving:

I've found that in this game, so far, the best way to drive is to use obstacles to your advantage and use everything you have access to sparingly. When you're getting near a turn, break a touch, then tap the e-break while quickly turning the stick towards where you want to go. Once you have begun your turn, gas it again quickly and turn your wheels the other way.

I know people know how to do this, but in GTA4 it's ULTRA touchy, so just tapping will get you through.

On combat: Though the game makes liberal mention about being able to flick between opponents, I've found it easier to just let off the control and pull the trigger down again to lock. also use the right gun for the job. If you're up close, there is nothing on God's green earth that spanks more than a damned shotgun. Far away, using a machine gun or smg is great for large crowds or I prefer the pistol for single targets. Accuracy does matter in GTA4, so crouching and not holding down the fire button make a huge difference.

On timed missions (dating and the such):

The biggest problem I've had is when I get a call I'm far away from where the person is. That's why cabs are absolutely fantastic. I use cabs CONSTANTLY. For those of you who don't know, you can jack customers out of a cab too, just holding the y button down will do it (360). Also, for activities, it's kind of poor design, but the cabs will still be out there, leaving, when you come back out. Hail them again.

And now I'm less bored so I'll stop

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 08:34 AM

X-COM wants a word, homies.

well, best game ever is so amazingly relative. My favorite game is Secret of Monkey Island, but you know what? I'd rather be playing GTA4 right now.

It's all about the experience at the time. For right now, GTA4 is my favorite game.

Wholly Schmidt

05-01-2008, 08:46 AM

The biggest problem I've had is when I get a call I'm far away from where the person is. That's why cabs are absolutely fantastic. I use cabs CONSTANTLY. For those of you who don't know, you can jack customers out of a cab too, just holding the y button down will do it (360). Also, for activities, it's kind of poor design, but the cabs will still be out there, leaving, when you come back out. Hail them again.
I love the cab system; I'm only 15% in, but it might be my favorite addition to the game so far. It's awesome because it's a shortcut if you want it to be, or it's just a fun ride to watch if you want it to be (as Tom pointed out).

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 08:47 AM

yeah, the cab system is my second favorite addition (I love the new combat system)

BDGE

05-01-2008, 09:28 AM

I also really dig the 911 feature. Doing a mission that requires a police car and I toppled the first one on accident, so I called up the Emergency number and boom, instant police car to continue pursuit(with a 1-star rating that is easy to lose). Also, it's made health recharges easy without having to carefully drive to a restaurant, or hopefully bump into a hotdog stand, call EMS and get back up to par by spending a bit of cash.

But yea, in a city full of cars to steal and get around with, I am surprised at how often I just hail a cab and choose to warp. Oh and there are some hilarious comversations to listen to if you choose to play out the entire ride and not warp.

WarrenM

05-01-2008, 09:36 AM

You can call 911? Shit, I never even thought of that...

Jason Cross

05-01-2008, 09:44 AM

I'm not sure where all the dying is coming from. I've played a fair number of hours - I just got forced into the second safehouse and I've done a bunch of non-critical-path stuff - and I've died exactly twice.

Once I got hit by a car carelessly when I was at minimal health. The other time I was up on a roof and looking for a quicker way down, so I hopped over the ledge to try and go down the fire escape, and I overshot the fire escape and fell some six floors to my death. Well, or a quick trip to the hospital, anyway. I think I've had to restart missions about three or four times, usually when it was a chase that I wasn't prepared for and the other guy go too far away before I could get in my car.

Driving doesn't seem that hard. Most of the cars are shitty, just as they are in real life, for hard driving. You gotta break (left trigger, not the E-brake) in a straight line before the turn, and accelerate through it. Overuse of the E-brake is the easiest way to start sliding all over the damn place. You wanna have fun, grab the Turismo from Faustin's driveway (the car in the back). That sucker holds the road a lot better.

Game's not perfect by any means, but for the most part I'm enjoying the writing, voice acting, and animation "acting" (which could easily have been way overblown, but usually isn't). They fixed a whole bunch of my complaints about control in previous GTA games, and the world is a lot more detailed and cohesive, which in this sort of game really adds a lot.

steve

05-01-2008, 09:48 AM

I just want somebody to say at what point the game turned into a 15/10 awesome A++ would totally carjack again experience for them.
You're pretty much doomed here because you went in with the view that it should kick your ass with pure awesomeness. Which it does, for most of the people who actually wanted to play the thing.

Almost every game I've tried solely because everyone raves about or tells me, "Dude, you need to play that!" has been a disappointment because I find myself picking it apart, probably in part to justify my previous disinterest. Or maybe that kind of game just isn't for me; if it was, wouldn't I have played it?

Moore

05-01-2008, 09:59 AM

You can call 911? Shit, I never even thought of that...
There is a LOt of shit like that. There is even a website you can accidentally visit that will get you a 4 star wanted level / FBI response (underage girls).

Uncle Larry

05-01-2008, 10:03 AM

There is a LOt of shit like that. There is even a website you can accidentally visit that will get you a 4 star wanted level / FBI response (underage girls).

SUUUUUUUURE buddy O_O

thamer

05-01-2008, 10:16 AM

I solved the driving problem:

When inside a car select the first person camera.

When outside the car select the third person camera.

The game remembers and switches through these. Driving is much easier in first person because you're more aware of where you're facing so when you turn you can time it correctly.

I just wish they added rear view mirrors. How could they give this game 10/10?

Lizard_King

05-01-2008, 10:22 AM

I just wish they added rear view mirrors. How could they give this game 10/10?
Just to be sure, you know clicking the right thumbstick looks back, even in FP view, right? I didn't realize that right away and it made backing up in FP a real pain.

thamer

05-01-2008, 10:23 AM

Just to be sure, you know clicking the right thumbstick looks back, even in FP view, right? I didn't realize that right away and it made backing up in FP a real pain.

Yes I did this once while racing. I looked back for 1 second and ended up flying through my drivers window when I rammed into another car.

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 10:34 AM

You're pretty much doomed here because you went in with the view that it should kick your ass with pure awesomeness. Which it does, for most of the people who actually wanted to play the thing.

Almost every game I've tried solely because everyone raves about or tells me, "Dude, you need to play that!" has been a disappointment because I find myself picking it apart, probably in part to justify my previous disinterest. Or maybe that kind of game just isn't for me; if it was, wouldn't I have played it?

Yeah, I purposely avoided reading anything about the game, hell I didn't even know what it looked like for the most part other than the official trailers. That way, when I got the game, I was pretty much surprised

Wholly Schmidt

05-01-2008, 10:41 AM

Just to be sure, you know clicking the right thumbstick looks back, even in FP view, right? I didn't realize that right away and it made backing up in FP a real pain.
The dome lights in the car turn on when you open the doors at night. That's worth at least an extra 1/10 right there.

Lizard_King

05-01-2008, 10:46 AM

Yes I did this once while racing. I looked back for 1 second and ended up flying through my drivers window when I rammed into another car.

Ok, just making sure. I guess the GPS + that makes up for most rearview functions, but it is a strange omission.

Moore

05-01-2008, 11:14 AM

does anyone know if there is a way to use a seatbelt? I feel like it should be in there with the winshield flying and all.

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 11:17 AM

Maybe if you wait a little while between getting in a car and starting it? I noticed that if you gun the gas on a motorcycle right away you don't put on your helmet.

Rock8man

05-01-2008, 11:19 AM

Maybe if you wait a little while between getting in a car and starting it? I noticed that if you gun the gas on a motorcycle right away you don't put on your helmet.

What the...... ? You can put on a helmet?

ElGuapo

05-01-2008, 11:20 AM

Maybe if you wait a little while between getting in a car and starting it? I noticed that if you gun the gas on a motorcycle right away you don't put on your helmet.

What? What helmet? Maybe I've just been gunning the gas every time. He puts on a helmet?

There are so many sweet little touches in this game ....

Major Icehole

05-01-2008, 11:25 AM

I've noticed the helmet too. If you give a friend a lift on a bike they put on a helmet too.

What I'd like to know is can you use the turnsignals. A lot of other cars are using them. Retarded I know, but this game is so immersive.

I'd also like Niko to shut the door on a car once in a while. It looks like he tries but gets in his own way.

JPR

05-01-2008, 11:26 AM

Yeah, and when he gets off the bike, he usually (but not always) takes it off and tosses it on the ground. I haven't been able to determine if it reduces damage you take if you crash. I would imagine it doesn't.

Oh, I ran a motorcycle into a wall last night (killing myself), and thought the blood spatter where my head hit was cool. The first time I noticed that you get persistent blood all over the hood of your car from hitting pedestrians, I was pretty pleased, too. They got a lot of the small stuff exactly right -- things that I don't even think of until I notice they are there.

JPR

05-01-2008, 11:27 AM

I'd also like Niko to shut the door on a car once in a while. It looks like he tries but gets in his own way.

I think that's you interrupting the door close animation. If you just hit Y and then don't touch the stick for a couple of seconds, he seems to always shut the door.

WarrenM

05-01-2008, 11:28 AM

Does the helment help at all if you crash? Is it worth waiting for? I, too, am a gas gunner.

JPR

05-01-2008, 11:31 AM

Since the helmet and seat belt seem to be analogous, I guess it probably does help you. If he actually puts a seat belt on if you let him sit in the car for a second, and if he doesn't, he can get launched through the windshield, that's the single coolest thing that I've discovered about the game.

tromik

05-01-2008, 11:34 AM

If he actually puts a seat belt on if you let him sit in the car for a second, and if he doesn't, he can get launched through the windshield, that's the single coolest thing that I've discovered about the game.
Heh, which was stolen from Saint's Row.

ElGuapo

05-01-2008, 11:36 AM

Go driving around like a madman sometime and pay attention to where you slam into stuff and scuff up your car. Where is gets damaged. Then walk around and look at all the little paint smears, missing paint, dents, scratches and blood. It's nicely detailed.

JPR

05-01-2008, 11:42 AM

Heh, which was stolen from Saint's Row.

I've never played Saint's Row. I don't think the look and general attitude of it could have appealed to me any less.

It does sound like they made a lot of good iterative improvements to the formula, though, and I think it's great that GTA has adopted them. This style of game is a genre just like any other, and it should be moving forward the same way the shooter and RTS genres do. It's no reason to belittle Rockstar.

Tom is constantly railing against RTS makers for not adopting more of Brian Reynolds' UI advances, and I don't think people would complain about Starcraft "stealing" better tooltips from Rise of Legends. Good ideas tend to bubble up and become standard genre trappings. Sure, it turns out I shouldn't be giving Rockstar the credit, but it doesn't make the idea any less cool.

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 11:44 AM

Heh, which was stolen from Saint's Row.

A game which was stolen from GTA in entirety, and imo, did a couple of base improvements and then failed utterly

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 11:44 AM

They got a lot of the small stuff exactly right -- things that I don't even think of until I notice they are there.
There are a lot of amazingly cool little touches in the game, but I really wish they'd gotten some of the larger features right--like driving and shooting--even if it meant fewer cool touches.

JPR

05-01-2008, 11:47 AM

There are a lot of amazingly cool little touches in the game, but I really wish they'd gotten some of the larger features right--like driving and shooting--even if it meant fewer cool touches.

I have no complaints (literally) about the driving or the shooting. I don't expect the driving to be Burnout, and I dislike gamepad shooters as a rule, so this is fine. I don't get why everybody is having such a hard time with the driving. It's floaty and you lose traction easily, but it's not hard to compensate for, and half the fun of the game is having shit go wrong constantly. If I were able to drive flawlessly, it would be a different (significantly less fun) game.

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 11:48 AM

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 11:50 AM

You like the fact that when driving you can't aim prior to pulling the trigger?

zengonzo

05-01-2008, 11:51 AM

It's floaty and you lose traction easily, but it's not hard to compensate for, and half the fun of the game is having shit go wrong constantly. If I were able to drive flawlessly, it would be a different (significantly less fun) game.

For me, this is key. I can appreciate people complaining about the tightness of the controls, or about the frequency of being arrested ..

In GTA that's never been a fail state. That's why they made it so damned easy to get right back into it. Why do we fall down, Master Bruce?

I imagine it's the same thing that made some people strongly dislike Dead Rising.

LesJarvis

05-01-2008, 11:52 AM

I have no complaints (literally) about the driving or the shooting.

Yeah, I've found the game to be mechanically solid from top to bottom. The driving and movement certainly feel less gamey than in previous iterations of the series, but this is clearly intentional, and I don't consider it a downgrade at all. In fact I think it helps in creating a believable and coherent gameworld.

zengonzo

05-01-2008, 11:55 AM

You like the fact that when driving you can't aim prior to pulling the trigger?

That's a valid issue. And who knows - they might even patch the game. (I won't hold my breath.)

But ultimately, the experience rises above any of the individual control issues. Always has. You couldn't even shoot forward before!

I sense the beginning of a great schism in the open world genre .. The GTAists and the Saint's Rowians.

I like each on their own, really.

Adam Altmann

05-01-2008, 11:55 AM

I was playing a mission last night where I was chasing a fleeing enemy on-foot. Dude was running to his car as I was making my way down some stairs, and I managed to gun him down in the street (just off the curb) before he was able to get into the car. I finished my way down the stairs and walked over to the body to inspect my handiwork. Satisfied, I turn back toward the sidewalk and immediately freeze. I'm literally standing on top of a dead body lying in a pool of blood, as a cop is approaching on the sidewalk, not twenty feet away. I prepare for the worst...and dude just keeps whistling as he walks right past me. Kind of a buzzkill.

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 11:57 AM

I'm literally standing on top of a dead body lying in a pool of blood, as a cop is approaching on the sidewalk, not twenty feet away. I prepare for the worst...and dude just keeps whistling as he walks right past me. Kind of a buzzkill.
So, we can add Assassin's Creed to the list of games Rockstar didn't learn from....

zengonzo

05-01-2008, 12:02 PM

JPR

05-01-2008, 12:07 PM

You like the fact that when driving you can't aim prior to pulling the trigger?

Doesn't bother me at all. Of course, you can kind of aim by trying to center the camera on what you want to shoot. Also, it takes a second for him to start shooting after you hold down the button (particularly if he has to break out the window with his elbow -- which is awesome, by the way) and that can let you do some quick aiming.

Again, I haven't played Saint's Row, so I don't have that basis for comparison, but I'm happy with what's here and certainly prefer it to the previous GTA drive-by mechanic.

tromik

05-01-2008, 12:12 PM

I've never played Saint's Row. I don't think the look and general attitude of it could have appealed to me any less.

It does sound like they made a lot of good iterative improvements to the formula, though, and I think it's great that GTA has adopted them. This style of game is a genre just like any other, and it should be moving forward the same way the shooter and RTS genres do. It's no reason to belittle Rockstar.

Tom is constantly railing against RTS makers for not adopting more of Brian Reynolds' UI advances, and I don't think people would complain about Starcraft "stealing" better tooltips from Rise of Legends. Good ideas tend to bubble up and become standard genre trappings. Sure, it turns out I shouldn't be giving Rockstar the credit, but it doesn't make the idea any less cool.

A game which was stolen from GTA in entirety, and imo, did a couple of base improvements and then failed utterly
JEEZ to the both of you! I was just pointing that it was something that came from Saint's Row. And I'm not complaining that they stole it - I love that they did! I wish they had stolen more! Because GTA4 story + level of polish with Saint's Row's ideas would make a freakin' unstopple force.

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 12:37 PM

You like the fact that when driving you can't aim prior to pulling the trigger? I usually just tap the left bumper and get an idea of where I'm pointed. You have to break the window out usually anyway, so it's my usual practice to do that

Jason McMaster

05-01-2008, 12:42 PM

JEEZ to the both of you! I was just pointing that it was something that came from Saint's Row. And I'm not complaining that they stole it - I love that they did! I wish they had stolen more! Because GTA4 story + level of polish with Saint's Row's ideas would make a freakin' unstopple force.

Yeah, I agree it was a good lift, but I'm not a saints row fan

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 12:44 PM

I usually just tap the left bumper and get an idea of where I'm pointed. You have to break the window out usually anyway, so it's my usual practice to do that
Yeah, I do that too, but in Saint's Row the crosshairs actually stay up so you can target properly. Or you could let a homie drive and just concentrate on shooting, in which case you could actually target specific things like tires or the driver's head.

Moore

05-01-2008, 12:45 PM

Mink Staccato

05-01-2008, 12:45 PM

God help me, but I played darts tonight until I got the Achievement for a 180 point round.

Darts will never be played again...

Besides, way too easy. Just pull the left trigger and bang. 180 very easily.

Pool, on the other hand, really blows. What's up with the rails being made of concrete? Does nothing actually bounce off of those? I only won (and got the achievement I was going for) when Roman scratched on the 8. Sucker.

I've yet to skim the achievements because I don't want to spoil any surprises. I imagine there is one for the super-suck-tastic bowling, so I'm kind of dreading that.

I am liking the game more and more though.

Oh and 12 hours in and I've found 6 of the radioactive pigeons. At this rate, I'll find them all after 400 hours of play. Perfect.

-Mink-

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 12:48 PM

I got the darts achievement on my very first turn. Way too easy. I don't think it's physically possible for me to lose, assuming I always go first.

**ACHIEVEMENT SPOILAR ZOMG****

The bowling achievement is getting a "turkey", three strikes in a row. Definitely harder than the other two.

tromik

05-01-2008, 12:53 PM

when you rolls and the car sparks where is scratches on the ground is rubs the paint down to silver, burnout-style. Nice detail.
I think the explosions looks great, too.

I know a lot of people have been hating on the blur, but I love the graphics in this game. Seems much more natural and organic than Saint's Row.

Mink Staccato

05-01-2008, 12:53 PM

**ACHIEVEMENT SPOILAR ZOMG****

Damn you, Shadarr! I read that! Damn you!!!!!

{Mink shakes his fists against the sky}

-Mink-

BlueJackalope

05-01-2008, 01:29 PM

I have no complaints (literally) about the driving or the shooting. I don't expect the driving to be Burnout, and I dislike gamepad shooters as a rule, so this is fine. I don't get why everybody is having such a hard time with the driving. It's floaty and you lose traction easily, but it's not hard to compensate for, and half the fun of the game is having shit go wrong constantly. If I were able to drive flawlessly, it would be a different (significantly less fun) game.

I totally agree. Driving like a manic should be hard, (I've seen enough Greatest Police Chases to know this is true) that's why its always fun, even the milk runs. And when All Hell is breaking loose, it amps the tension.

If you slow down and drive with the flow of traffic and obey the stoplights ect, you have plenty of control, but lose the fun.

Chuck Jordan

05-01-2008, 02:00 PM

Chuck, I can't speak for the folks who are breathlessly enthusiastic, but from my own slightly disappointed perspective, I'd say you should probably stick with it until a little ways past the first major plot point, which involves the turning point of the Vlad storyline. You'll know it when you reach it, and it's probably at around the 12% completion point. Beyond that, it gets a bit more compelling as it starts folding in a few new gameplay mechanics and introducing new characters If it's not working for you by the time the second safehouse is introduced, you've probably seen all you're going to want to see.
Thanks, Tom, that's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to hear. I'll stick it out at least until that point.

I'm still trying to figure out whether my tastes have completely diverged from the rest of the videogame world, or if this game is just a huge cocktease. Because I hear about the great characterization, and so far I've got Borat and Mad TV sketch characters. I hear about the great writing, and I get cut-scenes that range between serviceable USA Network made-for-TV movies about gangsters, and morning DJ "Hurrr teh fagots are funny!" And I keep seeing awesome screenshots of shootouts on rainy Chinatown streets, and guys riding motorcycles away from exploding cars, or firing rocket launchers at helicopters from a rooftop, and I get to take a Taurus to a nondescript alleyway and fire randomly at drug dealers. The thing that convinced me to buy the game was seeing they included Coney Island, right down to an accurate model of the Cyclone; I take a date there and hear "they closed down the carnival."

If the last few GTA games are any indication, I'm going to be hearing how awesome this game is for the next five years or so. I want to see that; I don't want to be playing darts, I want to be shooting rocket launchers at helicopters. Whenever an RPG makes you kill rats in sewers for 10 hours, it gets NAILED for it.

guidoguido

05-01-2008, 03:23 PM

Upon reflecting upon my issues with the game (I'm selling it to a friend of mine, btw) my central issue isn't really the driving. I don't like the driving, but the problem is a lot more basic, which is how easy it is to fail missions in this type of game.

In most games, you can make some mistakes and still make progress, but GTA as a game series and GTA IV in particular works on a pretty rigid pass/fail mechanic, made worse by the fact that one mistake in driving or one driver turning in front of you as you're chasing after can make you fail the mission. And this is not just the case in one or two missions,it's the case in many.

For example, my experience with the first motorcycle (which is what made me quit the game, btw), was an almost Murphy's Law of things than can go wrong. First of all, you're fighting with the extremely, extremely sensitive motorcycle controls, which can be jarring when coming from the clunky cars you have to drive most of the time. Second of all, it's easy to accidentally get on the on ramp to the highway and then totally lose him. Third of all, you have a pretty small margin of error in terms of bumping other cars. A little bump from another car would often send my flying.

Of course, the NPC driving is perfect, so none of this happened to them.

I think I tried in all about eight times, restarting, driving all the way to the start point from the mission giver (which didn't help in terms of the fun factor). I had no reason to believe that I was better equipped the next time to take it on, and I lost any desire I had left to play the game. I admit that part of the reason that I couldn't do it is that though I"ve played games all my life my aptitude has never been very high.

If the game gave you a way to either a) skip storyline missions or b) turn down the difficulty then I would have no problems with the driving or any other small issue in the game. As it is though, I can't explore the city fully or find out more about characters in whom I'm actually interested, which I find unfortunate.

But as I explained it to my friend, I love the city, but I hate the gameplay. And until the issues with missions in general are fixed I will never, ever buy another GTA because I've had the same kinds of issues every single time.

Moore

05-01-2008, 03:31 PM

Jim Preston

05-01-2008, 03:41 PM

but GTA as a game series and GTA IV in particular works on a pretty rigid pass/fail mechanicYeah, this has always been one of the criticisms of the series that I've felt is too often overlooked. As Tom said in his original post, there are just too many ways to fail each individual mission.

However, has anyone else felt that there hasn't been a corresponding variety of successful completions in GTA IV? For example, I failed the Vlad mission the first time because I let him get away while I was gunning down his thugs. So they next I try the mission, I park my car at the entrance to alleyway to block his escape route. This sort of multiple solutions to any scenario has always been a saving grace of GTA's trial-and-error approach. I remember one mission in San Andreas where it was the usual "chase someone all across town until you are able to kill them" type. Once I failed it, I realized the pimp was going to run to his car, so I shot out all his tires. When he tried to make a run for I literally just jogged along the side of his car and shot him while his rims sparked, laughing the whole time.

However, that's not possible with the Vlad mission as 1) his car isn't there before the start of the mission and 2) he completely plowed through my Buick La Sabre-like thing leading to what seems to be an obligatory chase. I'll have to keep trying, but I get the distinct feeling that this version doesn't support the variety of solutions that the previous one did - which would be hugely disappointing.

guidoguido

05-01-2008, 03:42 PM

Well, the NPC is a biker, and you are a sailor, so yeah, if you never drove a bike 200mph before, you might wreck a bit.

. How exactly would you catch up with him after a catastrophic bike crash? I mean, you CAN if you drive your ass off after, lord knows I'm not a good biker either, but wtf? This mission got me stuck as much nas you until I got good at driving the bike, but giving up that early is like getting your ass beat at ninja gaiden and being upset that you didnt stomp through the game in one go, or hating on a fighting game for making you learn moves instead of having a button for each one.

Sorry, but I'm not a glutton for punishment. If I stop enjoying a game I generally stop playing it. I don't really understand doing it any other way, but I guess some people do.

And it's not as if I tried once and gave up. I tried over 7 times, probably more like 10, until I no longer possessed a desire to play anymore.

And like I said, once I stop having fun with a game, I stop playing.

So, instead, I decided to play Saint's Row, which has a far less interesting city, but is much more fun to actually play.

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 03:44 PM

If you love the city but hate the missions, why don't you spend some more time rollin' around the city? Maybe on a motorcycle, so you get the hang of the controls. I know, crazy talk.

BlueJackalope

05-01-2008, 03:47 PM

Sorry, but I'm not a glutton for punishment. If I stop enjoying a game I generally stop playing it. I don't really understand doing it any other way, but I guess some people do.

And it's not as if I tried once and gave up. I tried over 7 times, probably more like 10, until I no longer possessed a desire to play anymore.

And like I said, once I stop having fun with a game, I stop playing.

So, instead, I decided to play Saint's Row, which has a far less interesting city, but is much more fun to actually play.

The nice thing about GTA is that you can not play that mission, for a long time, you can steal a bike and learn to ride better, or play side missions.

I do hope they haven't eliminated the "change the circumstances" solutions that Jim was talking about, but sometimes a hard mission resolves itself out of dumb luck (target gets hit by a car ect).

guidoguido

05-01-2008, 03:50 PM

If you love the city but hate the missions, why don't you spend some more time rollin' around the city? Maybe on a motorcycle, so you get the hang of the controls. I know, crazy talk.

That's the other reason the game series hasn't been something I've ever gotten into deeply. I enjoy the random rolling around the city for a very brief amount of time before I get bored with it.

That's my Catch 22. I roam around randomly, I get bored. I go to do missions, I get stuck---so I go back to the first thing which I get tired of very quickly. And then, I'm done.

Not that it really matters at this point. I lost any desire I had left to play the game after last night.

bago

05-01-2008, 03:58 PM

Brakes people. Brakes. Those things attached to the wheels of your car are called brakes. If your brakes break, then you're in trouble.

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 04:07 PM

You haven't even played GTA IV.

mkozlows

05-01-2008, 04:18 PM

If you love the city but hate the missions, why don't you spend some more time rollin' around the city?

And do what? I tried to do this when I was getting frustrated with a mission (one of the super-early ones, which doesn't bode well for later), and it was like Assassin's Creed: New York in that there's not a damn thing of interest to do. Hey, I can steal cars, and... um, beat up pedestrians. And once I saw a guy who gave me stuff. But that's it.

Does more stuff appear as I trudge through the missions?

guidoguido

05-01-2008, 04:24 PM

I wrote something dumb here that I edited.

forgeforsaken

05-01-2008, 04:25 PM

Whoever suggested using the bumper instead of A is right, it works way better for some reason.

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 04:25 PM

And do what? I tried to do this when I was getting frustrated with a mission (one of the super-early ones, which doesn't bode well for later), and it was like Assassin's Creed: New York in that there's not a damn thing of interest to do. Hey, I can steal cars, and... um, beat up pedestrians. And once I saw a guy who gave me stuff. But that's it.

Does more stuff appear as I trudge through the missions?
There are things you can do, but keep in mind that I'm largely on guidoguido's side. I'm really disappointed by the focus on the scripted missions and the removal of all the fun side stuff, at least to start. And I may very well hit a mission that frustrates me and quit playing; it's happened with every GTA game to date, eventually.

However, you can still race through traffic, do jumps, crash spectacularly, go out on the bridge and shoot a cop, then try to survive with six stars, hunt pigeons, do taxi or vigitante missions....

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 04:27 PM

So, because I have a different opinion than you about the game it means that I haven't played it?

I've spent at least 4-5 hours and have, I believe, 15 achievement points for my trouble (including Warm Coffee), so yes, I have played it thanks.
I was calling out bago and his annoyingly condescending advice to use the brake. He hasn't played it on 360, and I don't think he has a PS3.

guidoguido

05-01-2008, 04:30 PM

I was calling out bago and his annoyingly condescending advice to use the brake. He hasn't played it on 360, and I don't think he has a PS3.

My bad, I'll edit it out.

I guess I'm used to getting used to being jumped on for criticising the game that I kind of expect it at this point.

mkozlows

05-01-2008, 04:52 PM

I was calling out bago and his annoyingly condescending advice to use the brake.

You mean his spelling flame?

JamesL

05-01-2008, 04:54 PM

Cops N' Crooks is the best thing in GTA4.

Shadarr

05-01-2008, 04:54 PM

You mean his spelling flame?
Oh god, even better. I should really put him on ignore.

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 05:24 PM

garin

05-01-2008, 05:32 PM

There really are a ton of neat little touches in this game. I love that you sometimes get interference on your car speakers just before your cell is going to ring.

Jasper Phillips

05-01-2008, 06:00 PM

So, just a note to be careful with spoilers here. At least in this thread, better to err on the side of being too vague.

Okay, I think I've hit a second turning point. At around the 12% mark, at the main plot point in the Vlad storyline, I felt it picked up. Now, at the 30% mark -- and there's really no way I can describe it without getting heavily into spoiler territory -- I think I'm pretty much won over. I still have a lot of complaints, and I still wish GTA4 had learned more from Crackdown and Saints Row. And I'm really hating how often I have to replay the missions two or three or four times to figure them out and solve them.

But I think I'm hitting a point, maybe fifteen hours into the game, where I can understand some of the breathless enthusiasm. Of course, it could just be a Stockholm Syndrome situation...

-Tom
I'd rather expected you'd have your (apparently previous) cutting-through-the-hype take, which was enough to convince me to skip GTA4. This change of heart is a surprise though...

Care to spoil what made you change your mind, over in the spoiler thread? I've been extremely skeptical of GT4, as I've seen lots of gushing reviews without hearing they'd fixed things that tweaked me off in GTA3. However, if the plot and characters really are that good...

Lum

05-01-2008, 06:07 PM

They are really that good. It's like a good Russian gangster movie.

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 06:18 PM

Sorry, Jasper, but I'm not going in any spoiler thread! :)

I'm not saying I'd write a gushing review yet, certainly not to the degree I've seen. I'm still really disappointed at a lot of what Rockstar did and didn't do. But I have officially reached a point where I absolutely want to keep playing this thing. It has really -- for lack of a better word -- bloomed.

Here's a teaser: one thing that was really pissing me off -- as well as a lot of you -- turned out to be a feature. It was a simple thing and Rockstar knew it was going to piss me off, so they used it to create a gratifying emotional moment that we can all identify with. At that point, I felt like, "Okay, these guys know what they're doing and deserve a certain amount of trust."

So, I figure fifteen hours down, maybe twenty-five (?) to go. I'm psyched.

-Tom

Jasper Phillips

05-01-2008, 06:38 PM

Damn you, you tease(s)!

I do like gangster movies... Plus it seems there's a hole in my wallet.

SRFisher

05-01-2008, 06:52 PM

It's growing on me too.

The controls are still sluggish, and the third-person camera needs adjusting, and the removal of all that cool side stuff still irks me, but I've become attached to Niko. I want him to succeed.

Speaking of little touches: This may be a coincidence, but has anyone else noticed that right after you get your car washed, it starts raining?

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 06:57 PM

Jasper, I'm happy to PM you a spoiler if you'd like to know specifically what I'm talking about.

But I think the bottom line is that this is going to be an Important Game, although probably not in the 10/10 OMG U MUST PLAY!!1! category. At this point, I don't agree with that and I would hesitate to recommend GTA4 to non-practiced gamers. But it will be a game that informs the industry as a whole, and I suspect it will be the topic of player conversations for years to come. Skip it at the risk of your own gamerculture relevancy. :)

-Tom

jemann

05-01-2008, 07:09 PM

Here's a teaser: one thing that was really pissing me off -- as well as a lot of you -- turned out to be a feature.
Somebody teaches Niko how to drive?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Actually, playing it last night was far better. Driving in first-person does seem to help; now I just have to translate that feel back into my preferred viewpoint. I'm starting to dig the whole package more, and suddenly remembered that every GTA has had a slow, rough start (except maybe VC). And I haven't even touched multiplayer yet -- I wanted the controls to feel natural first.

As for shooting while driving: it should be difficult, right?

Jasper Phillips

05-01-2008, 07:11 PM

Thanks for the offer, Tom. I'm torn, but the twin plot-based recommendations from you and Lum pushed me enough over that I'll pass on the spoiler.

Tricky how it sometimes takes spoilers to figure out if a game is any good, even though reading them lessens the game's impact...

guidoguido

05-01-2008, 07:19 PM

I've become attached to Niko. I want him to succeed.

This, I think, is what irks me most about the gameplay issues in this game. I actually like the characters and want to see the story play through.

Problem is, my progress stopped due to some of these gameplay hitches, and it makes me even more upset than it normally would make me. If only there were an easy mode so that I could enjoy the story......

BobJustBob

05-01-2008, 07:26 PM

For example, my experience with the first motorcycle (which is what made me quit the game, btw), was an almost Murphy's Law of things than can go wrong. First of all, you're fighting with the extremely, extremely sensitive motorcycle controls, which can be jarring when coming from the clunky cars you have to drive most of the time. Second of all, it's easy to accidentally get on the on ramp to the highway and then totally lose him. Third of all, you have a pretty small margin of error in terms of bumping other cars. A little bump from another car would often send my flying.

Of course, the NPC driving is perfect, so none of this happened to them.

Even better, the traffic is scripted in that mission. I failed it once too and on the second try the exact same car jackknifed in front of me at the exact same spot. Way to go, Rockstar.

I'm not saying I'd write a gushing review yet, certainly not to the degree I've seen. I'm still really disappointed at a lot of what Rockstar did and didn't do. But I have officially reached a point where I absolutely want to keep playing this thing. It has really -- for lack of a better word -- bloomed.

Here's a teaser: one thing that was really pissing me off -- as well as a lot of you -- turned out to be a feature. It was a simple thing and Rockstar knew it was going to piss me off, so they used it to create a gratifying emotional moment that we can all identify with. At that point, I felt like, "Okay, these guys know what they're doing and deserve a certain amount of trust."

Are you talking about the story?

Tom Chick

05-01-2008, 07:35 PM

Are you talking about the story?

Ha ha, are you getting worried you missed something by skipping the cutscenes? Well, you did! :)

But, no, it's not a story thing. For the most part, I think everyone's pleased with the story. I'm talking about another gripe. It's a minor thing, and it was already kind of spoiled in this thread, but if anyone wants to know what I mean, feel free to PM me.

-Tom

BobJustBob

05-01-2008, 07:43 PM

Ha ha, are you getting worried you missed something by skipping the cutscenes? Well, you did! :)

But, no, it's not a story thing. For the most part, I think everyone's pleased with the story. I'm talking about another gripe. It's a minor thing, and it was already kind of spoiled in this thread, but if anyone wants to know what I mean, feel free to PM me.

-Tom

No, I was just wondering if I should discount your opinion. :P

Malcolm Tucker

05-01-2008, 08:46 PM

I love this game. I think this thread lowered my expectations, because I was expecting to suck at driving for the first five hours, but it really isn't such a hard adjustment. You go plenty fast, too, even in the shit cars.

I am having problems with the graphics, though. On my really big SDTV I'm finding it really hard to drive at night, there just isn't enough detail in those inky black shadows. I live in a city myself, and you know what? It's way friggin brighter than this. The map and text are big enough, though.

Otherwise I can't complain. I like how streamlined the food and clothes buying is. I love the story and the voice acting. I love sitting in a cab with the girlfriend, watching people light cigarettes or piss in alleys or try to jack cars. I love that asshole Middle Eastern guy that gives you the free rides.

EDIT: Also is that Justice on the electro station? Awesome.

Rock8man

05-01-2008, 08:50 PM

I am having problems with the graphics, though. On my ginormous SDTV I'm finding it really hard to drive at night, there just isn't enough detail in those inky black shadows. I live in a city myself, and you know what? It's way friggin brighter than this. The map and text are big enough, though.

Be sure to go into the menu under "display". You can adjust the brightness, contrast, and saturation. They even show you a screenshot of where you are right now so that you can see how your changes affect what the screen will look like. Highly recommended for anyone who thinks the game looks too dark, or over-saturated or has too high a contrast, etc.

Skipper

05-01-2008, 08:53 PM

I read the first three pages of this thread and Tom's writeup thinking I could pass on GTA4, then of course I stop by the local GameStop and the manager convinces me I'm a lunatic if I don't take one of the copies that wasn't picked up on opening day.

Two days worth of playing now and I'm enjoying it a lot. The tips here have really helped. I'd say the things that won me over so far were ...

*** Mild spoilers ***
- ELO playing on Romans radio the first time I went there.
- The city, Jesus it's beautiful.
- Seeing a hot woman walking as I drove by with Bob Seger's "Her Strut" playing on the radio.
- Holding down the brake and doing power donuts around the street.
- Nico's dialog and animations are superb. He even acts like he has a bad knee, shifting and flexing it every so often.
- Seeing the bullet holes, scraped paint, and body damage on a car EXACTLY where it should be. Amazing damage modeling.
- Cab rides.
- The minigames (yep, I like em. Hell when was the last RPG you played that had this many minigames within?)
- Getting laid on my second date. Easy women make the world go round.
- Private lap dances. With the controller shaking when you get touched. I laughed out loud when that happened.

I've just now hit the first turn point mentioned earlier and I like it already. I also put the WoW guild on notice that I'll be on extended afk, which I don't do often. I hesitate to give this a perfect 10/10, but it's a damn solid 8 so far and creeping up to 9 pretty fast.

The tips here that helped the most were the e-brake and just slight tapping on the controls. I haven't mastered fighting yet, but I'm winning by better firepower after finding some guns. At this point, whatever works. Also, bumping up my brightness, contrast and even saturation helped a lot with the minimap and cheap cell phone.

Keep the tips coming guys.

BobJustBob

05-01-2008, 09:05 PM

So I just got the second safehouse -- how much longer is it before I unlock the middle island?

I'm starting to think Eurogamer's "12 hours to unlock the whole map" was greatly exaggerated.

Lizard_King

05-01-2008, 09:19 PM

So I just got the second safehouse -- how much longer is it before I unlock the middle island?

Soon, Bob. Very soon.

jfletch

05-01-2008, 09:35 PM

GTA4 does not make a good first impression, especially if you've just finished reading a million 10/10 reviews. Everything just feels a bit off in the beginning. But man... I played it like 5-6 hours tonight. And I do not play games for 5-6 hours anymore.

Marcin

05-01-2008, 09:55 PM

And I do not play games for 5-6 hours anymore.

Yeah, it's definitely a "Fuck, yeah!" game, where I haven't really played anything like that in the past year or more. I've played games, and been entertained but I haven't really been bouncing in my chair at the end of the workday thinking "I can play soon!" in a long, long time.

Adree

05-01-2008, 10:36 PM

The cabaret shows are so awesomely weird. The tranny song takes the cake.

Soldats

05-01-2008, 10:55 PM

- Private lap dances. With the controller shaking when you get touched. I laughed out loud when that happened.

I've heard this elsewhere too, but I never felt it rumble during moments of contact. I'm wondering if my DualShock 3 is malfunctioning or something; the rumble feels rather subdued in most instances. A bit off-topic, but after hearing how well the DS3 is supposed to work for DMC4, it barely ever rumbles for me in that game. Has anyone had issues with their DS3?

Back to GTA4: I'm loving the second island, and I've finally got Niko in a respectable-looking suit. Haven't been able to find a shop that'll sell him some nice shades though.

Adree: That tranny song was awesomely weird!

Funkula

05-01-2008, 11:28 PM

Back to GTA4: I'm loving the second island, and I've finally got Niko in a respectable-looking suit. Haven't been able to find a shop that'll sell him some nice shades though.

Haha, I just did exactly the same thing: buy cool suit (I'm guessing you went with the black suit/red tie as well?), wish for Ray-Bans or similarly dark sunglasses.

Malcolm Tucker

05-01-2008, 11:43 PM

I just wish I could get the dude a shave!

Lum

05-02-2008, 12:00 AM

"No, Bluesy, please to not change your sex!"

Also, for ultimate fanservice, in the Bohan stripclub, get 3 private dances in a row.

thamer

05-02-2008, 12:02 AM

Please PM me where and when my cellphone will get upgraded. I'm already at the second hideout (not a spoiler since its been mentioned in this thread). I'm just not willing to play this anymore with this eye straining cellphone.

I really hope Rockstar gets burned over this and fires the person responsible. Don't mess with the UI at the because of "realism" for peats sake.

And yes, PLEASE PM ME. Do I get the upgrade from a mission or do I have to find a store? I got tons of cash.

EDIT: really upset at this "feature."

Coca Cola Zero

05-02-2008, 12:26 AM

How do you get the paramedics to fix you up after you call them via 911?

I was down to like 5% health and called those fuckers like 5 times and they kept driving to where I was, getting out of the truck and looking around for someone to fix up while I was right in front of them, they just walked on by me and made comments about prank calls and shit. I tried pushing all sorts of buttons to signal them (figuring maybe it was like hailing a cab), but never managed to get them to pay any attention to me or fix me up.... grr!

thamer

05-02-2008, 12:30 AM

I think dialing 911 is to STEAL the car and not to get them to help you.

Mink Staccato

05-02-2008, 01:00 AM

So, after my huge old rant earlier, I agree with most other people here that it gets better. (Meaning it goes from good, to very-very good.)

But I do have one last major complaint and that is the lack of checkpoints in missions. I thought the cellphone was going to fix this from prior GTAs, but all it did was slightly improve the situation.

Often I've been finding myself driving 10 minutes to reach the start of a mission, then 10 minutes to go from that start to the actual goal of the mission (usually, again, all the way across town). And then if, because of some dumb move on my part or just bad luck, I fail... My much-lauded cellphone advantage is simply taking me all the way back to the very start?!? So now, instead of having to spend 20 minutes to re-do a mission, I only have to spend 10? That's the huge change? Lame.

When will developers learn that forced travel time does not equal fun time, even in a city a pretty as Liberty? Burnout: Paradise had the same problem.

EDIT: To remove my spoiler, because it really wasn't necessary to make my point and risked, well.. uh.. spoiling something for someone.

-Mink-

Coca Cola Zero

05-02-2008, 01:02 AM

I think dialing 911 is to STEAL the car and not to get them to help you.

When you call and punch in '2', they imply the paramedics will fix you up (for a fee). Also, I've read reports of people on forums who have called them up and have been healed and who use it as a mobile fix-up station because it is more convienient than finding a hot dog stand or a hooker. I'm pretty sure they are supposed to fix me up, but either I'm doing it wrong or the game was glitching on me when I tried it earlier.

Coca Cola Zero

05-02-2008, 01:04 AM

It's FOREVER away from the hospital! I've spent 45 minutes on this mission alone and 30 minutes of that has just been travel time. Jeeze... It's driving me crazy. So frustrating.

-Mink-

I won't defend the lack of checkpoints in the game, but the travel time issue you're talking about is almost certainly why they added hailable taxis (whose travel time can be skipped) in this version of the game... so, dude, take a taxi!

Mordrak

05-02-2008, 01:12 AM

I won't defend the lack of checkpoints in the game...

That's what doesn't really make any sense. Their missions feel like they were built for checkpoints they way they are broken up into chunks based on gameplay most of the time (at least in SA and VC). It seemed like a no-brainer improvement.

Mink Staccato

05-02-2008, 01:22 AM

I won't defend the lack of checkpoints in the game, but the travel time issue you're talking about is almost certainly why they added hailable taxis (whose travel time can be skipped) in this version of the game... so, dude, take a taxi!

Can you take a taxi to the start of missions? I didn't know that. Thanks. Very cool.

-Mink-

MattN

05-02-2008, 02:22 AM

Can you take a taxi to the start of missions? I didn't know that. Thanks. Very cool.

-Mink-
you can also take them to mission destinations.
and as a protip, for timed delivery missions and stuff, the warp doesn't move the clock

Wholly Schmidt

05-02-2008, 03:45 AM

When you call and punch in '2', they imply the paramedics will fix you up (for a fee). Also, I've read reports of people on forums who have called them up and have been healed and who use it as a mobile fix-up station because it is more convienient than finding a hot dog stand or a hooker. I'm pretty sure they are supposed to fix me up, but either I'm doing it wrong or the game was glitching on me when I tried it earlier.

I'd guess it's a glitch. I was at really low health and figured I'd give it a shot last night. The first time I called, the ambulance stopped a half block from me, but I stood there waiting to see if anything would happen (sometimes traffic just gets "confused") and eventually it just drove off. The second time I called, it pulled up closer and as the paramedics got out it gave me a message something like "The paramedics will fix you up for $990. If you don't want to pay to be healed, scare them away." That was more expensive than I expected, so I fired a couple shots to send them running.

Coca Cola Zero

05-02-2008, 04:57 AM

"The paramedics will fix you up for $990. If you don't want to pay to be healed, scare them away." That was more expensive than I expected, so I fired a couple shots to send them running.

Whoa, $990? It is possible I didn't have that much money on me when I tried this before, maybe that is why they never tried to heal me. Some kind of in-game tip or a snarky comment from a paramedic about me being too poor to be treated would have been nice, though.

Re: Taxis... you can take them basically anywhere. If you're heading somewhere that isn't named/important, just set a gps route before you get into the taxi and then tell him to take you to your destination when you get in.

Moore

05-02-2008, 05:29 AM

Sorry, but I'm not a glutton for punishment. If I stop enjoying a game I generally stop playing it. I don't really understand doing it any other way, but I guess some people do.

And it's not as if I tried once and gave up. I tried over 7 times, probably more like 10, until I no longer possessed a desire to play anymore.

And like I said, once I stop having fun with a game, I stop playing.

So, instead, I decided to play Saint's Row, which has a far less interesting city, but is much more fun to actually play.

understandable, but I liked the game, so I had fun doing it 10 times or so to get it completed. Not that I did it 10 times in a row or anythnig, that would be boring. But I like motorcycle chases, so I dont mind doing them a mere 10 times. I've played level 1 of pacman like 5000 times.

Moore

05-02-2008, 05:31 AM

JPR

05-02-2008, 07:29 AM

Whoa, $990? It is possible I didn't have that much money on me when I tried this before, maybe that is why they never tried to heal me. Some kind of in-game tip or a snarky comment from a paramedic about me being too poor to be treated would have been nice, though.

Yeah, I tried this yesterday, too, and it was 880 for me (I didn't do it). You do know, though, that if you steal an Ambulance it heals you, right? So what you have to do is call them, have them show up, then wave your gun around at them, but steal their car before they can get to it, or kill them.

Then, when you hop in the ambulance, your health goes up by about 2/3.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 07:40 AM

when you hop in the ambulance, your health goes up by about 2/3.

Argh, I was at the tail of of a big mission, fought my way through a horde of agents and police, escaped with a mere speck of health left, managed to run around about eight blocks while dodging through cop fire, finally got to a hospital and right as I was pulling the door handle to an ambulance I was shot in the fucking head!

It was a hell of a run, though. Can't wait to do it again. I love this game.

Mink Staccato

05-02-2008, 09:30 AM

you can also take them to mission destinations.
and as a protip, for timed delivery missions and stuff, the warp doesn't move the clock

Woo-hoo! Thanks. I'll try this tonight. A big whopper of a complaint, gone!

-Mink-

Adam Altmann

05-02-2008, 09:31 AM

I'd like to retract my previous statement that was along the lines of:

"Stop complaining about the women-as-sex-objects thing, because really, what did you expect from a Grand Theft Auto game?"

I didn't mind it so much at first, because whatever, what did I expect? But I'm about a dozen hours into the game, and it still seems like every third conversation with Roman contains references to titties or foursomes or whatever else. It's honestly just tiresome. There's a certain threshold for juvenile shit like this, and they are well past it.

Jazar

05-02-2008, 09:34 AM

That's a shame. I was tired of it after the intro cutscene.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 09:38 AM

But that's Roman. That's Roman being juvenile - his character.

Lum

05-02-2008, 09:49 AM

And he eventually calms down about the great American titties.

For those of us who play GTA4 mainly to hear Vladivostok FM, you can listen to it at work, too! (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018GCTA4/)

BlueJackalope

05-02-2008, 09:55 AM

But that's Roman. That's Roman being juvenile - his character.

Gotta say....<SPOILER ALERT>

I thought it was a very effective when Roman got shot 'cause he wouldn't stop screaming.

<END SPOILER>

Shadarr

05-02-2008, 10:04 AM

But that's Roman. That's Roman being juvenile - his character.
It's Roman, and Jacob, and The Men's Room, and radio ads, and the talk station.... At some point it's no longer just the characters, it's Rockstar.

Wholly Schmidt

05-02-2008, 10:21 AM

It's Roman, and Jacob, and The Men's Room, and radio ads, and the talk station.... At some point it's no longer just the characters, it's Rockstar.
Amen. I'm glad I'm not the only one bugged by it. It's funny, when it comes to the tone of the games, Rockstar has the presentation and polish nailed, it doesn't feel fake or ring hollow, but a lot of it is still just very accomplished juvenile gags that sometimes make me embarrassed to play it around people that aren't gamers or 13. Saints Row was trying to hit the same tone in the humor, but it felt like it was designed by a committee of out of touch marketing guys and ended up feeling very forced.

Yet at the end of the day, GTA's "success" is just as annoying as Saints Row's failure.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 10:28 AM

It's Roman, and Jacob, and The Men's Room, and radio ads, and the talk station.... At some point it's no longer just the characters, it's Rockstar.

You're right. They do infuse the totality of the game with a bit of juvenile humor. And some less subtle humor.

But they also include subtler humor, and I think more often than not the juvenile humor is a reference to what we have in real life. We have thinly-veiled sexism plastered all over society, and they are simply pulling the veil off.

I can understand the annoyance, but every time I catch a hint of explicit juvenalia in the game I think of it as calling out the implicit juvenalia in reality.

Nico even criticizes these perspectives, particularly with Brucie and Roman.

Dunno', I think the humor goes deeper than the skin in these cases.

Chuck Jordan

05-02-2008, 10:28 AM

Amen. I'm glad I'm not the only one bugged by it. It's funny, when it comes to the tone of the games, Rockstar has the presentation and polish nailed, it doesn't feel fake or ring hollow, but a lot of it is still just very accomplished juvenile gags that sometimes make me embarrassed to play it around people that aren't gamers or 13. Saints Row was trying to hit the same tone in the humor, but it felt like it was designed by a committee of out of touch marketing guys and ended up feeling very forced.
I dunno, I'm getting a similar vibe from GTA IV. It doesn't feel like what 14-year-olds think is cool and "edgy," it feels like what 30-year-olds think 14-year-olds think is cool and "edgy." At least with GTA III, you got the sense that it was a genuine, sniggering lack of class tacked onto this at-the-time innovative game engine. Now, it's just morning DJ or FX network lowest-common denominator crap that's annoying and incongruous with the rest of the world. It's a big, beautifully-realized game world filled with crap. See, the bowling alley logo looks like a cock and balls! How subversive! And don't even get me started on that "cabaret;" I hope I never have to go inside there again.

But I'm not just ragging on the game, yet again: I played for a couple of hours last night, doing a couple of missions and then putting them on hold just to drive around. And there's just no getting around how compelling it is to pick up a car or a motorcycle and drive around the city. I still wish there were a better game around it, but that experience is worth $60 right there, and I'm engrossed enough to want to get back into it and see how this story develops.

Marcus

05-02-2008, 10:29 AM

You might think it is juvenile but it is a lot closer to how some people act in real life then you might think. Especially if you take in to account the type of people they are depicting.

Skipper

05-02-2008, 10:35 AM

One thing is for certain. If we get a PC version of this the mods will be fun as shit. Such a huge open world just begging for mods.

BlueJackalope

05-02-2008, 10:45 AM

It's Roman, and Jacob, and The Men's Room, and radio ads, and the talk station.... At some point it's no longer just the characters, it's Rockstar.

Yeah, most of it is as unfunny as it is over the top. I keep spamming the radio button when the news or the commercials come on.

I have to believe its the Housers who just think this stuff kills and no-one can edit their worst instincts.

Shadarr

05-02-2008, 11:00 AM

I still like listening to the radio ads and news. A lot of it is funny, and some of it is good parody/satire. But there's a relentless misogynist tone to a lot of it that just wears on me. Either Rockstar is really down on women or else they're making fun of their fans. Either way, it's not good.

At least in Saints Row there were female homies and NPCs.

RichardC

05-02-2008, 11:01 AM

Great. Finished Final Destination, and now I can't get down the street without a Disc Unreadable Error...

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 11:11 AM

At least in Saints Row there were female homies and NPCs.

One of which was a stripper with giant tits with star pasties, a g-string and toting an AK ..

ElGuapo

05-02-2008, 11:18 AM

Kevin Grey

05-02-2008, 11:28 AM

*slight spoiler*

Nico has a conversation at one point with someone who asks if Roman will ever settle down and get married. He responds by saying that Roman still acts like a little boy and he's not sure if he'd make a good husband yet.

This is a breathe of fresh air to me. I like Nico the most of any GTA protagonist, so far. Not only is he cool and professional (they gave give a great back story and reason for being good at what he does), he's a a bit above the world around him. When the characters around him make gay jokes, for instance, he just rolls with it and doesn't stoop to their level. I wish more characters in the story were like this.

*Slight Spoiler*

Yeah, I appreciated how Nico kind of put Roman in his place when he started going off about Mallory sleeping with Vlad. When confronted with why Nico didn't tell Roman about it, Nico basically responded with "Well gosh with all the sleeping around you do on her, I didn't really think you would care."

*End Spoiler

JamesL

05-02-2008, 11:43 AM

I'm eight or nine hours into the story and I'm really not feeling it.

First of all, the first hour or so should be both a tutorial and a small showcase of the game itself, so it hooks you and you're compelled to keep playing. Instead, it's insufferably boring, and most of the first few missions are "drive to X," "pick up X," other missions that are essentially impossible to lose, and mandatory goddamn bowling (I still can't get over this).

As far as the story goes, I think the dialogue and characters are stiff and boring (nowhere nearly as good as, say, Psychonauts), but everyone else seems to love them. However, GTA4's gameplay changes are laughable. You can duck behind cover. That's it, really. The lock-on mechanics are poorly copied from Crackdown and then watered down, and they ultimately don't change much, because if you're in a situation where you really need to shoot a lot of people you're going to lock on and fire and lock on and fire just like San Andreas. The police search radius is mildly interesting, but there are so many cop cars roaming around that the chases play out pretty similarly to San Andreas. The GPS is convenient, but isn't mich else. GTA4 is totally and wholly devoid of any sort of significant gameplay innovation besides the ability to get behind something. Even the three or four dozen missions I've played so far are straight out of San Andreas (pick up this guy, drop him off here, have a chase sequence, follow this guy without spooking him, cover this guy with a sniper rifle).

To me, GTA4 feels like Madden. I'm basically playing the exact same game I did a few years ago, except with prettier pictures and the sandbox equivalent of "New, realistic pigskin ball makes you feel like you're really playing!" as the sum total of the game's new features.

Lum

05-02-2008, 11:44 AM

Also, without spoiling anything, Roman's character does change as the game progresses.

I know Tom's said this as well, but if you're unhappy with the game, get to at least the Bohan missions (where you earn a second safehouse) before completely passing judgement. The story steps up and gets more mature, and the difficulty level in general starts to kick in (for example you can't just heist cars with impunity - last night I tried to jack a car in Russiatown and was swarmed by three nearby cars full of angry Russian mobsters who opened fire with Uzis. Guess I picked the wrong car to jack.)

Chuck Jordan

05-02-2008, 11:48 AM

I like Nico the most of any GTA protagonist, so far. Not only is he cool and professional (they gave give a great back story and reason for being good at what he does), he's a a bit above the world around him. When the characters around him make gay jokes, for instance, he just rolls with it and doesn't stoop to their level.
I don't know about that; last night I sat through a long cutscene setting up the (first?) "Ivan the Terrible" mission, and Nico kept digging at Vlad, calling Ivan his boyfriend and asking him if he was going to give him a kiss, etc. I haven't seen any signs that any character is more or less "enlightened" than any other one.

Jason Cross

05-02-2008, 11:55 AM

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 11:56 AM

I don't know about that; last night I sat through a long cutscene setting up the (first?) "Ivan the Terrible" mission, and Nico kept digging at Vlad, calling Ivan his boyfriend and asking him if he was going to give him a kiss, etc. I haven't seen any signs that any character is more or less "enlightened" than any other one.

Yes, he does stoop a few times. Don't we all? I still think his tone is more mature and discerning than most of the characters around him.

Wholly Schmidt

05-02-2008, 11:56 AM

IndridCold

05-02-2008, 12:01 PM

I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling worn down by the constant barrage of juvenille sex humor. It's almost like the guys who wrote it have never actually been in a relationship.....

[VERY MINOR SPOILER]

I'm not too far into the game (haven't gotten yet to this aforementioned 2nd safehouse), but the worst offender so far has been the driver of car that Roman dispatches when you call him as ask for Car Service. Almost arbitrary injection of the word 'pussy' 3 or 4 times into every sentence causes my wife to give me grief over the nonense dialog coming from the television. It's getting embarassing for me to have to keep saying "Yeah, but the gameplay itself is awesome!" over and over to her in order to justify my playing it.

[/END MINOR SPOILER]

Gladguy

05-02-2008, 12:02 PM

Great. Finished Final Destination, and now I can't get down the street without a Disc Unreadable Error...
Hmmm... I've had a couple of those, too. I was suspecting it to be hardware related, though. Will have to monitor the intarweb to see if this is commonplace.

Shadarr

05-02-2008, 12:05 PM

One of which was a stripper with giant tits with star pasties, a g-string and toting an AK ..
Yes, but unlike the strippers in GTA, she's not just an object. She has power, she has a purpose in the game beyond being acted upon.

And SR also had Lin, who was a major part of the story (and then came back as a zombie homie, which is pretty much the coolest easter egg ever). Thus far, the only woman who even figures into the plot outside of cutscenes is Michelle, who just tries to pump you for information while you're pumping her.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 12:10 PM

Not wanting to offend someone else in the room I can really appreciate.

And finding the juvenile humor tiresome I can understand.

But otherwise - and this is just my perspective here, I'm not looking to invalidate anyone else's opinion - these things just seem like thing, weak jokes. I don't think anyone really thinks they're hysterical. But if you're making a bunch of gag companies and products, you throw in some kind of innuendo.

I just don't see how that's changed from previous GTAs, and I definitely don't see it as being worse than Saint's Row, in which the sophomorism was the crust, the core and the foundation.

Could it perhaps be that the new, realistic tone makes these lame cracks stand out more than they might have in prior, less serious iterations?

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 12:14 PM

Yes, but unlike the strippers in GTA, she's not just an object. She has power, she has a purpose in the game beyond being acted upon.

And SR also had Lin, who was a major part of the story (and then came back as a zombie homie, which is pretty much the coolest easter egg ever). Thus far, the only woman who even figures into the plot outside of cutscenes is Michelle, who just tries to pump you for information while you're pumping her.

Really, that's a bit of a stretch for me. I can agree that there is a bit of misogynism in GTA, but definitely not worse than Saint's Row.

Freckle Bitches? 'I'll be right over once this bitch is off the cock?' The pimp missions? I really can't follow you there.

BlueJackalope

05-02-2008, 12:16 PM

The current jokes are no worse than they have ever been, it probably an unrealistic hope that they actually be funny. Or at least not be moronically stupid*.

I'm not offended, I just want them to be better.

* I get that they are trying to hold up a fun-house mirror to American culture and their "jokes" are an attempt at commentary, it just doesn't work very well.

IndridCold

05-02-2008, 12:18 PM

I just don't see how that's changed from previous GTAs

Before GTA4, the only other 3d GTA game I had played was GTA3. From what I remember of that game - and I'm fully open to someone calling shenanigans if my memory is way off - I don't recall any dialog even coming close to delivering the level of gratituous profanity found in GTA4.....actually I don't recall any profantity at all? Don't get me wrong, I won't get all up in arms when a game character drops a F-bomb on occasion. But general level of profanity in GTA4 is approaching Deadwood levels (although i haven't heard the c-word yet :) ).

Jazar

05-02-2008, 12:20 PM

GTA with Deadwood dialogue would be the greatest game ever.

Moore

05-02-2008, 12:23 PM

Something like Gun, (but not shitty) and done in this engine would be wicked awesome.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 12:25 PM

Before GTA4, the only other 3d GTA game I had played was GTA3. From what I remember of that game - and I'm fully open to someone calling shenanigans if my memory is way off - I don't recall any dialog even coming close to delivering the level of gratituous profanity found in GTA4.....actually I don't recall any profantity at all? Don't get me wrong, I won't get all up in arms when a game character drops a F-bomb on occasion. But general level of profanity in GTA4 is approaching Deadwood levels (although i haven't heard the c-word yet :) ).

You're right, it had grown progressively stronger through Vice City and San Andreas. I think of that as somewhat realistic, though, in consideration of the lifestyle they are portraying. I also loved Deadwood, though Deadwood offered a bit more poetry to the form.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 12:28 PM

Something like Gun, (but not shitty) and done in this engine would be wicked awesome.

I would love a proper Western done in GTA style. Red Dead and Gun both made weak, enjoyable flails at it.

Hopefully Red Dead 2 really figures it out.

Shadarr

05-02-2008, 12:30 PM

Really, that's a bit of a stretch for me. I can agree that there is a bit of misogynism in GTA, but definitely not worse than Saint's Row.

Freckle Bitches? 'I'll be right over once this bitch is off the cock?' The pimp missions? I really can't follow you there.
I'm not talking about the jokes here, I'm talking about the total lack of any female characters who are more than objects, to balance the jokes. Yeah, some of the guys were juvenile in SR, but there were female characters with a voice. Lin would tell them to STFU, the stripper would say "Just so we're clear, this isn't a date." Thus far, GTA has none of that. There is a huge difference between a stripper whose purpose in the game is to do a lapdance cutscene and a stripper who shows up to kill people and help you complete a mission.

Shadarr

05-02-2008, 12:32 PM

I would love a proper Western done in GTA style. Red Dead and Gun both made weak, enjoyable flails at it.

Hopefully Red Dead 2 really figures it out.
Red Dead Revolver was not GTA-style. It was just a series of cutscenes followed by you being teleported to an area where you had kill everyone in it, rinse repeat. Gun at least had the open world you could ride around in, even if that world was pretty empty.

RichardC

05-02-2008, 12:32 PM

The current jokes are no worse than they have ever been, it probably an unrealistic hope that they actually be funny. Or at least not be moronically stupid*.

I'm just bored of them. GTA4 was a great chance to switch things around a bit, like they did with the world, but it's the same old type-5318008-on-your-calculator stuff. Haha. You called an internet cafe TW@. Hahaha.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 12:39 PM

Elisabeta? Mallorie?

I really don't know, mate, I think you're wishing IV had some of the gameplay elements of SR - which I could totally understand - and applying a general value to other comparisons.

Otherwise, I can't see that a juvenile fantasy which helps you shoot dudes with an AK in your hoopty in any way represents an enlightened perspective on gender issues.

Again, no problem with you calling out GTA for it's obviously male perspective, but Saint's Row cannot be called a superior example. Its heroines are still teen male comic book fantasies.

ElGuapo

05-02-2008, 12:43 PM

I'm just bored of them. GTA4 was a great chance to switch things around a bit, like they did with the world, but it's the same old type-5318008-on-your-calculator stuff. Haha. You called an internet cafe TW@. Hahaha.

Hmmm, I didn't even get that one. I thought it was just "TWO" spelled with the @ sign. How dumb.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 12:44 PM

Red Dead Revolver was not GTA-style. It was just a series of cutscenes followed by you being teleported to an area where you had kill everyone in it, rinse repeat. Gun at least had the open world you could ride around in, even if that world was pretty empty.

No, no, certainly not. It offered the prospect, however, and I was really lusting for a proper version afterwards. So I was completely psyched for Gun, and certainly did enjoy it, but felt like the characters were a bit flat.

Granted, Red Dead's characters were cartoon characters, so I'd really like to see something in the middle, tone-wise, and with more open world gameplay.

JPR

05-02-2008, 12:55 PM

Hmmm, I didn't even get that one. I thought it was just "TWO" spelled with the @ sign. How dumb.

They say the name of the place in the cutscene that sends you there for the first time.

Moore

05-02-2008, 01:02 PM

I'd like a lot of settings to get the ultra deluxe sandbox treatment ala IV. Dead Rising 2 could be in a city this big! Give me some crazy epic scifi shit in a megatropolis!

I really can't wait for Mercs 2. I'll probabaly grab sr2, but I wish the SR series had gone for a different setting, I feel like they misse dout on carving up their own unique title by choosing to poach off off GTA.

I'd love for a hitman sequel to have an open world actually.... I cant imagine how cool that gameplay would be in a world as rich as IV's.

Jason McMaster

05-02-2008, 01:09 PM

I guess I'm just missing the lack of positive female characters(AKA not objects) since I can think of 3 right off the top of my head.

Seriously, a machinegun stripper? This is what GTA4 is lacking?

RichardC

05-02-2008, 01:09 PM

Dead Rising 2 could be in a city this big!

Dead Rising 3, maybe. Dead Rising 2 has to be set in a theme park.

Moore

05-02-2008, 01:20 PM

Cities have theme parks, hell they already had one in the mall.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 01:28 PM

I'm a total nut for open world environments. I wish there were many more.

Dead Rising did pretty well on its own - a city where you actually had to survive, could completely sandbox it, coordinating with other survivors .. Oh, love.

A hitman game would be great, with dynamic contracts.

I'd really like to see them go further into empire management, though. Further down the path Scarface and Godfather took a stab at.

Moore

05-02-2008, 01:30 PM

A galciv/overlord mix with multiple galaxies of planets full of auto-generated cities as detailed as gta iv! Get down and walk around in your empire! Raze entire cities from orbit then fly down to see the screaming faces!

This is like when I used to sit around dreaming up super awesome gijoe toys.

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 01:34 PM

Spore?

Though it seems like the actual management will be pretty light in that one - who knows?

Chuck Jordan

05-02-2008, 02:20 PM

I'm just bored of them. GTA4 was a great chance to switch things around a bit, like they did with the world, but it's the same old type-5318008-on-your-calculator stuff. Haha. You called an internet cafe TW@. Hahaha.
I happen to think that typing 5318008 on a calculator is comedy GOLD.

Shadarr

05-02-2008, 02:39 PM

Elisabeta? Mallorie?
I have no idea who you're talking about, so if this is just one more example of the game taking 10 frickin' hours before it gets good, that's an equally bad indictment. Some entire games don't last as long as this one wastes on tutorial missions.

Malcolm Tucker

05-02-2008, 03:08 PM

I'm ten hours in, and we have Michelle (who is maybe just a plot point, i dunno yet, but she is not all about sex and she's not a dumb manipulatable skank) and Faustin's wife and Mallorie and Elizabeta and emails from Niko's mother. No whores, no strippers so far. Maybe you guys are spending too much time at the strip clubs and not advancing the plot?

zengonzo

05-02-2008, 03:31 PM

I have no idea who you're talking about, so if this is just one more example of the game taking 10 frickin' hours before it gets good, that's an equally bad indictment. Some entire games don't last as long as this one wastes on tutorial missions.

No doubt. I think the amount of investment required for this game will cause a serious blow to its reception.

That's too bad, as it has some real quality in it.

TheRock

05-02-2008, 03:35 PM

I've already spent 6-7 hours just exploring, fighting, killing, jumping, etc. I wont get to the good parts of the actual game for another 10-20 hours....and I might never get to them...it's the sanbox which makes me happy

noun

05-02-2008, 03:46 PM

OK, I've figured out my problems with driving and combat. Roman's car and my fists are poor substitutes for motorcycles and shotguns. Problem solved.

I've played a few missions for a few NPCs, but they haven't really grabbed me yet. I mean, they're mildly interesting, but I'm ready for the real plot points now. Hopefully they manifest soon.

I still don't think I've played enough GTA to really give a verdict one way or the other, but there are two things I want to know:

* Why the hell does Nico lean at a 45 degree angle when turning left or right? Were the other games like this and I just didn't notice?
* Why can't Nico run down the stairs? And why for the love of God do his knees bend BACKWARDS when he descends stairs? That's just wrong.

Tom Chick

05-02-2008, 03:49 PM

While I'm backing off just a bit from my earlier criticism, I still think Rockstar is terrible at female characters, and their portrayal of women in general leaves a lot to be desired. A story this big and carefully told deserves someone like Tenenbaum or Alyx. Rockstar has a huge franchise, and I wish they'd try a bit more to raise their storytelling out of the juvenile boys' gutter.

So I have to take issue with this from Malcolm:

I'm ten hours in, and we have Michelle (who is maybe just a plot point, i dunno yet, but she is not all about sex and she's not a dumb manipulatable skank)

Where you are in the game, Michelle is just an intro to the dating game whose sole purpose seems to be to show you how to get invited in for "coffee". But, uh, well...the less said the better.

and Faustin's wife

A sadly undeveloped character, but she does have a great scene with Nikko. I loved the bit with the samovar.

and Mallorie

Who presumably sleeps with Vlad even though she's Roman's girlfriend. This was one of the things that set me off early in the game. The first female character they establish betrays the main character's cousin, to fairly dramatic effect.

and Elizabeta

A psychotic heroin dealer, but yeah, I was glad to see her make an appearance. "Sassy fat black chick" is at least a nice change of pace from "ridiculously endowed and scantily clad bosomy stripper type".

and emails from Niko's mother

I'm not sure I'd call her a character so much as a cheap way to flesh out Nikko and Roman, but fair point.

Mostly, Malcolm, it's the overall tone of the game and its characters towards women. The radio station gags are a significant part of this as well. But to Nikko's credit, he seems above all the Roman and Brucie crap, so there's that. And we'll see where the game goes after the fifteen hour point.

-Tom

Jim Preston

05-02-2008, 04:14 PM

A story this big and carefully told deserves someone like Tenenbaum or Alyx.Agreed. People keep wondering if games have had their "Citizen Kane" yet. And while I have no idea, I sometimes feel we've had our "Birth of a Nation". The GTA series is simultaneously our best effort but also morally embarrassing. 4's narrative is certainly a marked improvement over 3, VC and San Andreas; and Nico - as you pointed out - is more conflicted and interesting than any previous GTA lead character.

I hope there's a GTA5, but I'd love of it if they would throw a curve ball and have, say, the lead character be a female cop who has to work her way up from the beat. You can choose to be a dirty cop or a straight arrow and play the game the way you want to. Set it in Boston and riff on The Departed. I dunno, that may not make much sense as I think a large part of the appeal is the fantasy role play as an amoral killer.

EvilIdler

05-02-2008, 05:11 PM

Saints Row was trying to hit the same tone in the humor, but it felt like it was designed by a committee of out of touch marketing guys and ended up feeling very forced.

I thought the radio was pretty well done in Saints Row, especially the conservative channel.
GTA4's channels aren't as good as the earlier ones. Maybe I should play the old rips from 1-3.5 instead :)

gamadict

05-02-2008, 05:20 PM

Best argument yet for mid-mission checkpoints..

SPOILER

The mission 'No .1' and having to listen to Brucie's spiel on bitches, pussy and his balls again and again every time I fail it. It was kind of funny when I got into a huge motorcycle crash on the way there and he started right up again with his conversation like nothing happened.

And it fails me for trying to shoot out everyone's tires before the race, what's with that? They need to give poor drivers a way to win through violence

END SPOILER

Tom McNamara

05-02-2008, 05:38 PM

Agreed. People keep wondering if games have had their "Citizen Kane" yet. And while I have no idea, I sometimes feel we've had our "Birth of a Nation". The GTA series is simultaneously our best effort but also morally embarrassing. 4's narrative is certainly a marked improvement over 3, VC and San Andreas; and Nico - as you pointed out - is more conflicted and interesting than any previous GTA lead character.

Yeah, I'm up to the point where Vlad parts ways with the rest of the crew, and I've been impressed by the interaction of the characters. It feels very authentic. I liked the contentious class distinction between Niko and Vlad. Niko's cousin is a classic sad-sack gambler who's destined to be found in a ditch. And I liked Niko's first scene with Michelle, where he's eager to go to the "funfair." All this drama, violence and criminal underworld business, and he just wants to get away from it and take a girl to the carnival.

So far, if there was anything that's disappointed or frustrated me so far, it's how the cars handle corners: like they've got a trunk full of cinder blocks. In previous installments, you could pretty much just tap the E-brake when you started your turn, and you'd slide cleanly onto the next street. If you try that in IV, however, the back end will slide out from under you. You have to manage both the E-brake and the pedal brake, and I haven't quite gotten a feel for it. Although it is nice that these cars take much more of a beating than before.

Malcolm Tucker

05-02-2008, 06:15 PM

Mostly, Malcolm, it's the overall tone of the game and its characters towards women. The radio station gags are a significant part of this as well. But to Nikko's credit, he seems above all the Roman and Brucie crap, so there's that. And we'll see where the game goes after the fifteen hour point.

-Tom

I just don't think it's sexism. I change channels on the radio when a commercial comes on, so I'll take your word for that one, but the female characters in the cutscenes just aren't like the women in Saints Row or a Robert Jordan novel. They are stereotypes, but holy shit, so are all the men. Elizabeta may be that same tired sassy black chick but she's clearly more competent and empowered than, say, Roman.

Anyway. I'm going to stop defending the game because I'm only like 20% in and it sounds like I might be eating my words as the game progresses, but seriously, so far it seems more like Rockstar hating humanity than Rockstar hating women.

thamer

05-02-2008, 07:58 PM

There are a couple of stronger female characters in the game than usual but I won't spoil any surprises. Needless to say, Nikko doesn't hate on women. He just has no social skills which makes it funny when he goes out on dates.

BobJustBob

05-02-2008, 07:58 PM

Well, my copy of GTA4 is fucked. Tried to play it tonight but it never gets past loading the last save. The disc looks pristine and deleting all my saves and the cache data and letting the game reinstall doesn't help. In that case, it never gets past "starting a new game".

Adree

05-02-2008, 08:42 PM

If you're having problems with the race, do what I did and exploit the fishtailing mechanics that the npcs are having to deal with as well. Take the turns easy and whenever you get a chance to slightly bump someone, do it just be mindful you don't get spun out as well. I got an early lead and held it the entire race like this.

MattKeil

05-02-2008, 08:47 PM

A psychotic heroin dealer, but yeah, I was glad to see her make an appearance. "Sassy fat black chick"

Puerto Rican, according to Little Jacob.

SqueakyFoo

05-02-2008, 08:58 PM

So I'm really not having fun with the game. I'm not very far in, haven't even unlocked the second island and I just have zero desire to keep playing. I load up the game and play for what feels like hours and hours, after I quit I looked at the clock and saw I'd been playing for about 20 minutes. For me, that isn't a good sign. A good game would make 5 hours feel like 5 seconds, not the other way around. I'm very tempted to just shelve it forever.

Tom Chick

05-02-2008, 09:19 PM

Puerto Rican, according to Little Jacob.

Wait a minute, you could understand something Jacob said?

-Tom

William Harms

05-02-2008, 09:21 PM

Set it in Boston and riff on The Departed. I dunno, that may not make much sense as I think a large part of the appeal is the fantasy role play as an amoral killer.

I'd love an open-world game like that. I'm really getting tired of being a scumbag in all of these games. (Although Nikko seems to be less scummy than other protagonists in the series.)

To Tom's point about the women, I just got the pistol so I'm not very far in and have had one "date" with Michelle. Let me guess, she's an undercover cop/government agent? You pick her up and the first thing she asks is if your cousin is a criminal. Yeah, that's believable date chatter...

Omniscia

05-02-2008, 09:22 PM

Wait a minute, you could understand something Jacob said?

-Tom

There's a reason I turned the captions on.

Tom Chick

05-02-2008, 09:23 PM

Heh, I expected the same thing, William! But it's nothing like that. They pretty much do something that makes it clear she was only a tutorial for the dating system. You'll see.

-Tom

thamer

05-02-2008, 09:32 PM

You can run in the subway tunnels. I gawked at that level of depth.

Talisker

05-03-2008, 12:16 AM

Wait a minute, you could understand something Jacob said?
I've played so much GTA4 this week that I don't find Jacob half as cryptic as I did at first. Which really kind of weirds me out.

Jasper Phillips

05-03-2008, 01:37 AM

Wait a minute, you could understand something Jacob said?

-Tom
Jacob is no sweat, but that other ganja smokin' dude? Completely impenetrable.

WarrenM

05-03-2008, 04:18 AM

So how does one dial the phone? I can punch in 911 but I seem to be missing the obvious "talk" button.

Gendal

05-03-2008, 05:02 AM

And I just shot that window in that one mission. They said break the window. I had a gun. It worked.
I punched it. Bricks? What bricks. Niko should just be happy they don't let me head butt. TO THE MAX BABY.

There's a reason I turned the captions on.
What? As long as I ignore the subtitles I can grasp at least the gist of what Jacob is saying. They decided to just render a phonetic impersonation of what he says which is typically even more confusing than just listening.

But yes, the other rasta? Completely impenetrable is about as apt a description as you can get.

So how does one dial the phone? I can punch in 911 but I seem to be missing the obvious "talk" button.
It's to the left of the '1' button, the blue phone icon. After that you are given touch tone options for the police, paramedics, and I haven't waited to see if there is another option.

garin

05-03-2008, 05:05 AM

So how does one dial the phone? I can punch in 911 but I seem to be missing the obvious "talk" button.
It's to the left of the '1'.

thamer

05-03-2008, 07:45 AM

*early spoiler alert warning*

Who presumably sleeps with Vlad even though she's Roman's girlfriend. This was one of the things that set me off early in the game. The first female character they establish betrays the main character's cousin, to fairly dramatic effect.

If you hadn't noticed the main characters aren't very smart or credible. Roman comes off as a liar from the get-go which makes me think Vlad isn't *actually* banging her. I think Vlad is just trying to steal Roman's girlfriend. It's in-line with greasy bar culture where women will "hang out" with people but actual sex happens less often than the men would like you to think.

Mostly, Malcolm, it's the overall tone of the game and its characters towards women.

I find the misogyny in-line with Hollywood style crime thrillers from the 90s only with enough "the fast and the furious" gags to make you laugh at this theme. I did on-line dating only to see how funny the women would be and I'm pleasantly surprised none of it takes itself seriously.

You could also make the argument that the game is racist, but in actuality it shows how diverse a population in North America is and how everyone is pretty much the same despite their ethnic background.

William Harms

05-03-2008, 12:08 PM

Heh, I expected the same thing, William! But it's nothing like that. They pretty much do something that makes it clear she was only a tutorial for the dating system. You'll see.

-Tom

Okay, I'll take your word for it. I did get the "Warm Coffee" achievement on my second date, which was pretty funny.

Jim Preston

05-03-2008, 12:39 PM

Okay, I'll take your word for it. I did get the "Warm Coffee" achievement on my second date, which was pretty funny.There's also a couple of restaurants around Liberty City called Hot Coffee Shoppe.

MattKeil

05-03-2008, 12:41 PM

Wait a minute, you could understand something Jacob said?

About half of it. Real Badman, though, I can't even pick up a single word. Although judging by Niko's reactions to him, that's the intent.

SqueakyFoo

05-03-2008, 01:18 PM

About half of it. Real Badman, though, I can't even pick up a single word. Although judging by Niko's reactions to him, that's the intent.
Turn subtitles on. The words he's saying aren't English. I'm not even convinced they're words.

Tom McNamara

05-03-2008, 01:22 PM

I gotta say, after playing it all day yesterday and becoming accustomed to the more realistic driving model... it's still a pain. With pedestrians, oncoming traffic, cross traffic, police, pedestrian police, sidewalk clutter and inclement weather, it doesn't take much to completely bone a race or car chase. I'm doing Brucie's street race now, and all that on top of getting to Brucie's, getting the car, and getting to the race, the frustration level is pretty high. You can grab a cab and skip the cutscene, but the legwork is still tedious. And he doesn't vary his dialog, either.

And I'd also like to able to call a cab, like I can call emergency services. It doesn't take long for one to eventually show up, but the idle time can get irritating. I think it's a nice touch, though, that late at night it's mostly cabs and little else.

On the other hand, I did accidentally blow up a squad car I'd been driving (it had taken critical damage or something). I bailed out, ran a good distance, turned around... and saw another squad car stopped about twenty feet away at a stoplight. Imminent mayhem, right? Especially when another squad car wheels around the corner. But my squad car blows up, and no one does anything. I don't know, maybe some pedestrians scattered, but the motorists didn't even flinch. It was like staring into an Uncanny Valley of behavior.

I didn't expect IV to blow my mind and win me the lottery or anything. Nor am I a Saint's Row fanboy. I'm pretty indifferent about that game, actually. I just wish these cars didn't handle so realistically, with so many environmental obstacles and potential police involvement to deal with.

Talisker

05-03-2008, 01:32 PM

And I'd also like to able to call a cab, like I can call emergency services. It doesn't take long for one to eventually show up, but the idle time can get irritating. I think it's a nice touch, though, that late at night it's mostly cabs and little else.
I'd like to be able to tell the cabbie to wait while I pick up my friend and/or buy weapons from Jacob.

delirium

05-03-2008, 01:44 PM

And I'd also like to able to call a cab, like I can call emergency services. It doesn't take long for one to eventually show up, but the idle time can get irritating. I think it's a nice touch, though, that late at night it's mostly cabs and little else.

If you call Roman, there's an option to have him send you a cab.

thamer

05-03-2008, 01:54 PM

Tom McNamara

05-03-2008, 02:45 PM

If you get an actual sportscar it will drift well, otherwise you need to do what you do RL, slow down and turn or slow down a tad and turn like described before.

That's... kind of what I'm saying. And it's difficult to manage with all the environmental obstacles. There's no benefit to a more realisitic model, because the game doesn't give you breathing room to learn how to do it. First, you have to screw up several missions, side swipe a police officer or two, flip your car, set it on fire, go flying off the road during a rainstorm and into a pile of rocks...

I'm on the Elizabeta missions now, and these things still handle like pregnant yaks. You get the occasional sporty car that won't do a squealing 180 if you hit the E-brake at 20 miles an hour; the game is pretty stingy with cars that drive manageably. I'm tired of earning the privilege of eventually getting to Manhattan.

zengonzo

05-03-2008, 02:51 PM

Going to quit?

thamer

05-03-2008, 03:14 PM

I'm on the Elizabeta missions now, and these things still handle like pregnant yaks. You get the occasional sporty car that won't do a squealing 180 if you hit the E-brake at 20 miles an hour; the game is pretty stingy with cars that drive manageably. I'm tired of earning the privilege of eventually getting to Manhattan.

You can find real sportscars at this point. Later on they're even easier to find. What I do is park 2 fast cars and a bike in my private spot. When I get to a mission than needs something sporty I break them out and head out there.

I find the game rewards preparation.

You'll start finding *real* sports cars much easier at about 30% completion. These drift very well and allow you to ignore most obstacles. I dunno, I disagree that driving is so hard in the game. I personally found some of the extended gun battles to be poorly paced.

Tom McNamara

05-03-2008, 03:24 PM

Going to quit?

What, are my observations both subjective and ridiculous? I still enjoy the story and the characters, as I always have with the GTA series. I like the talk radio and the commercials. But I think there are some problems with the actual game that have been almost entirely glossed over by the reviewers.

I miss the list of cars you can steal, for example; Brucie's emails aren't the same thing, because you can only do those one a time, and you don't know what car he'll want next. I miss the relatively easy access to weaponry, and the variety of missions. I think the dating mini-game is tedious. I think the gamma is way too low at night. I have no idea where the train stations are. The music options have breadth but lack depth. The camera doesn't stay behind the vehicle. The on-foot gunfights are cake. The vehicular gunfights are overly complicated, since you can't aim until you're already firing your weapon. I also miss the San Andreas changing room and the variety of apparel.

You know what it was like in Vice City, cruising in a helicopter to the theme from Miami Vice while the sun went down? Checking your weapons and ammo before you dropped down to engineer explosions and destruction? Bliss. Because you felt like a badass. As I said, I've gotten up to the Elizabeta missions, and I still feel like a worm on a hook. I'm holed up in a roach motel with a compulsively gambling fate tempter for a roommate, I've been doing dirty work for nasty people from the day I stepped off the boat, and I still don't have my AK.

This game has issues.

Jim Preston

05-03-2008, 03:28 PM

If you call Roman, there's an option to have him send you a cab.There are certain times when Roman cannot send you a cab because of story reasons, and during those times I feel the same way as Tom does. I loved how in Bully you could have instant transportation via the skateboard, and I miss having something like that in GTA.

In fact, the more I play the game the more unimpressed I become. If this game wasn't made by the GTA guys, I'd say they hadn't played enough GTA. All these little things are so irritating:

- The terrible driving
- The terrible in-car shooting
- The pointlessness of hidden health packs when food is just as powerful
- The seemingly pointless currency (I've only bought a few pieces of clothes and only a single gun)
- The clunky, unfun mini-games
- The hidden pigeons that do nothing for you until you kill all 200
- The inability to call a cab at all times
- The inability to see some things like police stations on the map
- The car collecting side missions which are nothing but tedious fetch quests
- The lack of gang-land style battles from SA

The only thing that is really keeping me going is the outstanding writing and superb cutscenes. In previous GTAs I was doing all sorts of things at once, like cab rides, exploration, side quests, and the critical path. But IV is just so routine to me. I will say that I enjoy the absence of any remote-controlled biplane missions starring David Cross.

zengonzo

05-03-2008, 03:49 PM

What, are my observations both subjective and ridiculous? I still enjoy the story and the characters, as I always have with the GTA series.

Just wondering.

Hudson

05-03-2008, 04:50 PM

Oh boy I'm really psyched that they continue to make me lose races when one of the AI drivers kills himself and that this hurts my relationship with Brucie. I already upset at how absurdly long the race was when rounding a corner 2 of my foes end up hurtling into a gas station. I was in love with the game when the gas station exploded, but then incredibly angry when it told me "race abandoned" and I lost 4 points of Brucie like.

Oh, spoiler

If spoil was enabled you'd have to click something to read this

Coca Cola Zero

05-03-2008, 05:10 PM

I find the game rewards preparation.

As with all things GTA, this is a double edged sword. It rewards preparation and yet it does nothing to make it possible to really prepare for things short of playing a mission and failing it.

One of my general GTA complaints that 4 certainly didn't fix is you're almost always going into missions completely blind despite the fact that the people sending you on them could give you more up-front information on what to expect, either in the cut-scenes or when you're travelling with them (on missions where you go with other people). Granted, on some of the missions the secondary parts are because something goes wrong and you're not really supposed to be able to plan for that, but when I play GTA games I pretty much assume I'm going to fail the mission the first time through unless it is super easy or I get lucky, and then I'm going to ace it the second time through because I have a better of idea of what is going to happen. That isn't good game design, nor is it good for the narrative.

Coca Cola Zero

05-03-2008, 05:12 PM

Because you felt like a badass. As I said, I've gotten up to the Elizabeta missions, and I still feel like a worm on a hook. I'm holed up in a roach motel with a compulsively gambling fate tempter for a roommate, I've been doing dirty work for nasty people from the day I stepped off the boat, and I still don't have my AK.

Slight spoiler...

Did you meet Playboy-X yet? You're very close to getting a bunch of great weapons, including (IIRC) the AK.

Tom McNamara

05-03-2008, 05:18 PM

Slight spoiler...

Did you meet Playboy-X yet? You're very close to getting a bunch of great weapons, including (IIRC) the AK.

Yeah, I just met him. I was actually in the process of doing that first mission with him before I had to pause my progress and head out with the fam to see a baseball game IRL.

Tom McNamara

05-03-2008, 05:27 PM

Granted, on some of the missions the secondary parts are because something goes wrong and you're not really supposed to be able to plan for that, but when I play GTA games I pretty much assume I'm going to fail the mission the first time through unless it is super easy or I get lucky, and then I'm going to ace it the second time through because I have a better of idea of what is going to happen. That isn't good game design, nor is it good for the narrative.

I have to agree. As I said before, I think the on-foot gunfight mechanics are very straightforward. But that doesn't mean that I'm always prepared to handle multiple waves, or people bolting for the door whom I have to chase down. The chase missions are the worst, though, because of the quirkiness of vehicular aiming and scripted obstacles. If your car goes flipping off the road and lands facing the other direction, your mission failure is usually imminent.

This is partly due to how the compass map is very zoomed in. You can tell which direction the escapee is in, but you don't know what route to take to get back on his tail. Sometimes the road you're on will veer off into another direction, or you'll slam into a cop car, or you flip and have to carjack someone, and maybe there's a cop nearby.

Tangentially, I do feel bad now when I have to carjack a cab driver. Ironic, because they were almost always my first means of easy transportation in Vice City. Once in IV, I accidentally carjacked a cabbie and hopped back out of the car. Instead of getting back in, though, he wandered away like he'd never owned the car in the first place. You know what a NYC medallion license goes for these days? It's several times the worth of any of the cars they drive.

William Harms

05-03-2008, 05:29 PM

- The terrible driving
- The terrible in-car shooting

Trying to control some the cars is nearly impossible. Everyone says that it gets better later in the game, but my question to that is why does it have to be so shitty in the early stages of the game?

Tom McNamara

05-03-2008, 05:41 PM

Trying to control some the cars is nearly impossible. Everyone says that it gets better later in the game, but my question to that is why does it have to be so shitty in the early stages of the game?

I find myself snagging whatever looks sporty and European. There's also a Honda Civic-looking car that handles pretty well. But the muscle cars, American sedans, minivans, SUVs and pickup trucks are pretty tough. The upside is that the pickups and SUVs can take quite a beating, and you can pretty much plow your way through.

Wholly Schmidt

05-03-2008, 05:54 PM

thamer

05-03-2008, 06:04 PM

William Harms

05-03-2008, 06:36 PM

So you appreciate how far you've gotten in the game?

Just take it easy in the beginning. Missions get much tougher later on.

It's not a matter of how easy it is in the beginning, it's matter of the cars sliding around like I'm driving on a sheet of ice. It's a major pain in the ass.

Kevin Grey

05-03-2008, 07:12 PM

Following advice I've seen in various forums, I've been driving in almost exclusively in first person view and I can control all of the cars very easily right now. Doing that switch really made a huge difference.

Shadarr

05-03-2008, 07:37 PM

thamer

05-03-2008, 07:43 PM

Depends on your play speed. I'd say at 30% completion I've been in a lot of cool shit.

MattKeil

05-03-2008, 08:39 PM

Driving cars feels pretty much exactly like it did in SA to me. I don't understand the complaints. And firing from the cars is weird and not great, but it's also still an improvement from the terrible system we had in the last few games.

Agreed. The complaints about driving seem to point to a problem with the players more than the game. I have absolutely zero trouble with the driving, even using the low performance cars or the large trucks.

Omniscia

05-03-2008, 08:57 PM

It's strange... In first-person perspective, my driving is great. In third-person, I'm sliding all over the road, like a car with bald tires on ice. The opposite holds true on motorcycles.

guidoguido

05-03-2008, 09:02 PM

Agreed. The complaints about driving seem to point to a problem with the players more than the game. I have absolutely zero trouble with the driving, even using the low performance cars or the large trucks.

Well, it's not as if there's only one person having the problem on here, and I imagine some of us who post here have played a few games in our day.

So, I think that the problems point to the fact that the driving is either

a) different than people expected it to be
b) unintuitive in someway
c) clunky

I bet the answer lies somewhere in between. When people who post on video game message boards are having trouble with them, it points to the driving not being easy to pick up at very least, and is something that should be examined.

Marcin

05-03-2008, 09:03 PM

It's strange... In first-person perspective, my driving is great. In third-person, I'm sliding all over the road, like a car with bald tires on ice. The opposite holds true on motorcycles.

That's a good point. I have no problems driving in first person either, but invariably mistime the turns in third.

Perhaps it's not the mechanics, but the camera that's at fault?

Wholly Schmidt

05-03-2008, 09:07 PM

I bet the answer lies somewhere in between. When people who post on video game message boards are having trouble with them, it points to the driving not being easy to pick up at very least, and is something that should be examined.

On the other hand, when people who post on video game message boards are talking about GTAIV, I take for granted that they've probably played the other recent GTAs, which drive the same. So to those of you who've really never picked up a GTA before now, apologies. Yeah, it's not Burnout. To the rest of you, I guess if you want to you could take the stance that it's always sucked in GTAs and you've never liked it, but then it seems silly that you'd buy this one.

Lizard_King

05-03-2008, 09:17 PM

I've now played the game for 17 hours and thus far I haven't unlocked anything of note. I haven't gotten off the first island. I have one safehouse. I can't do taxi missions anymore. I can do races, but based on the introductory one I don't want to. I have a girlfriend and a bunch of men who nag me to go out, but all the activities suck. I just finished one of the most by-the-numbers sniper missions since Silent Scope, and died in the subsequent "walk into an obvious ambush, try to fight your way out" mission.

So, does the game pick up at the 20 hour mark?
I don't think I'm at the twenty hour mark but close to it, and I've unlocked all three islands while playing at a snail's pace by my standards. At first I was frustrated, but once I got used to the veiled linearity of the core mission set, I was fine. That's always been a stumbling block for me with GTAs, but this one makes it endurable by throwing in a pretty kickass plot, characters I enjoy listening to, and giving me the opportunity to reenact everything from the Heat shootout to the Kurgan's mad drive through the city with an old lady on his hood in between.

A lot of the missions have more promise than delivery, but I guess it's the presentation that lets them off the hook for me. If at twenty hours you are still stuck on the first island, it might not be for you. I found it really logically paced in terms of organizing optional activities with story ones, and I'm still at less than 50% I think, and the game has not felt stagnant to me at all. I get pissed every now and then when the veneer of sandbox falls off (like when I try ideas that should work within the game's logic only to be denied by bullshit collision detection/jumping or whatever), and the lack of mission checkpoints is a terrible design choice, but overall it delivers.

guidoguido

05-03-2008, 09:22 PM

On the other hand, when people who post on video game message boards are talking about GTAIV, I take for granted that they've probably played the other recent GTAs, which drive the same. So to those of you who've really never picked up a GTA before now, apologies. Yeah, it's not Burnout. To the rest of you, I guess if you want to you could take the stance that it's always sucked in GTAs and you've never liked it, but then it seems silly that you'd buy this one.

It's been a long time since I've played San Andreas, but I don't remember it being this bad at all.

Hell, I remember the driving being one thing I liked about III. Maybe I expected it to be improved and that's why I found it difficult to adjust? Who knows---all I know is in the few hours that I played the game, I never enjoyed the driving or got used to it.

Tom McNamara

05-03-2008, 09:32 PM

Agreed. The complaints about driving seem to point to a problem with the players more than the game. I have absolutely zero trouble with the driving, even using the low performance cars or the large trucks.

Ha, that sounds like flamebait to me. When you're trying to chase someone in a rainstorm, you might as well run down the middle of the street like Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon. Honestly, I could rub the tires of my car in bacon fat and handle a corner better than I do in GTA.

Omniscia

05-03-2008, 09:34 PM

Yeah... I played GTA 3, Vice City, and San Andreas (to say nothing of the first two in the series) on the PC, with a keyboard (except for a couple of races in San Andreas I had to use a gamepad for), and it was never this finicky.

Chuck Jordan

05-03-2008, 10:51 PM

To the rest of you, I guess if you want to you could take the stance that it's always sucked in GTAs and you've never liked it, but then it seems silly that you'd buy this one.
So it seems silly that we'd buy a game that got perfect scores from nearly every single major game review source? Especially when several of them describe it as an improvement and refinement of GTA 3, which fixes that game's problems?

What seems silly to me is that a game called Grand Theft Auto manages to make driving frustrating and not very much fun, especially since driving is what you're doing 90% of the time. And the solution is apparently to hit the Back button 3 times to switch the camera out of its default mode, blocking your view of the enormous city that they've built. 10/10!

What little faith left I had in videogame reviews is being shaken by this, especially when game reviewers go on message boards saying that if you have a problem with the driving, it's the player's fault, not the game's.

Tom Chick

05-03-2008, 10:57 PM

Yeah, MattKeil's blame-the-player approach is one of those typically dismissive internet remarks we could do without, but in a way he's right. It's a challenging -- but ultimately *very* gratifying! -- driving model. I can understand the frustration when you first jump in, and I certainly sympathize. But as others have pointed out, drive like it's Forza. Brake before you turn, accelerate through turns, and for pete's sake, lay off the e-brake. You Are Not Ready! :)

Also, just steer clear of those 70s and 80s sedans. You're just going to frustrate yourself even more.

Once you get accustomed to it, and once you get a greater variety of vehicles, the driving really is aces. Based on this engine and driving model, I am ten times more psyched for Midnight Club LA than I was before. And I was already super-psyched for it!

-Tom

jfletch

05-03-2008, 10:58 PM

I really don't see where all these complaints about the driving is coming from. I can kind of see that it takes a while to go to a complete stop if you are driving fast, but as for turning, judicious use of the handbrake and brake (and, in many cases, both) work fine. I am able to pull off precise moves, turn quick, do 180 spins, etc. Its harder in some cars than others (there's a lot more differentiation between similar looking cars, which might be causing some annoyances), but even with junk like Roman's Taxi I wouldn't say its hard. The driving is definitely a bit "heavier" than it was in past games or Saint's Row but I don't think its worse, or even better, just different.

I am about 15 hours in and really love the game. I think they fixed everything that made the older games annoying to get through after some time. Every time I have popped it in I have ended the session with a higher opinion of the game than I started with. I was in the middle of Mass Effect when it came out, sadly that game (which I was really enjoying too) will have to take a back seat... again.

guidoguido

05-03-2008, 11:08 PM

So it seems silly that we'd buy a game that got perfect scores from nearly every single major game review source? Especially when several of them describe it as an improvement and refinement of GTA 3, which fixes that game's problems?

If I didn't take reviewers opinions with a grain of salt before, I will definitely do so now, and would again suggest to everyone else to do the same. It's pretty shocking that a game with as many technical issues as this game doesn't have any contarian voices out there in the gaming press.

The publishers, especially of "big" games, have most of these publications over the proverbial barrel, so to think that any high profile game is going to receive objective reviews seems kind of naive.

I'm sure it didn't help that much of the press was given a nice hotel room for five days in order to play the game.

To say nothing of the fact that the demographics of the gaming press make its' reviews only applicable to a certain segment of the game-buying public.

Talisker

05-03-2008, 11:12 PM

Erik J.

05-03-2008, 11:54 PM

Once I started getting the better race cars, I found the driving to be way easier and much more fun. Funny thing is, I found that to be true even for the shitty old sedans and whatnot as well -- ie, I finally learned how to drive.

It's unfortunate that, at the early stages of the game where you're learning the driving model, the cars are all so terrible. Something that handles well, but has a lousy top speed, would be helpful in the early-on. Actually, just sprinkling a few more Faggio's around the starting area would probably do the trick.

One of my favorite cars is the Blista Compact that is pretty easy to find early on. It is the poor man's sports car.

Not sure how far I am completion wise, but I'm still on my second safe house. Really, really enjoying this game so far. The characters are all pretty amusing, especially Brucie. I've had to repeat a couple of missions, but nothing too annoying as of yet. I do agree that as someone who has second thoughts often, NB sure does like to lay down the law.

Stay alpha,
Erik J.

Adree

05-04-2008, 12:34 AM

I've found the various muscle cars to be very reliable handling rides as well, and they look great too.

thamer

05-04-2008, 01:11 AM

Not sure how far I am completion wise, but I'm still on my second safe house. Really, really enjoying this game so far. The characters are all pretty amusing, especially Brucie. I've had to repeat a couple of missions, but nothing too annoying as of yet. I do agree that as someone who has second thoughts often, NB sure does like to lay down the law.

Stay alpha,
Erik J.

*spoiler edited out*

IM me if you want the location of a plentiful source of very very nice sports cars. It's not really available until you can go to the third island though.

Damien Neil

05-04-2008, 02:13 AM

There are certain times when Roman cannot send you a cab because of story reasons, and during those times I feel the same way as Tom does. I loved how in Bully you could have instant transportation via the skateboard, and I miss having something like that in GTA.

I finished Bully just a week or two ago, and I've been missing the hell out of the skateboard every time I fire up GTA4. It really was an inspired addition to the game.

Right now, I'd be far more psyched for a Bully 2 than a GTA5.

WarrenM

05-04-2008, 03:16 AM

I wish they had added that hand holding thing from Bully that people have mentioned. It would make the dates with Michelle seem much more believable.

But thanks for the obvious info on the phone. I'm a an idiot, apparently.

Brakara

05-04-2008, 03:19 AM

But as others have pointed out, drive like it's Forza. Brake before you turn, accelerate through turns, and for pete's sake, lay off the e-brake.

Thank you. Reading this thread, I was going to say the same thing. It's not the GTA driving model that sucks, it's just you guys who suck at driving. The driving model is awesome.

guidoguido

05-04-2008, 04:10 AM

Thank you. Reading this thread, I was going to say the same thing. It's not the GTA driving model that sucks, it's just you guys who suck at driving. The driving model is awesome.

Saying someone sucks at something in a game isn't really a useful thing to say.

Until a person masters the mechanics of a particular part of the game, they do indeed "suck" at that aspect of the game.

It is up to the developer to figure out how to present the mechanics of a particular aspect of the game in a way that it is easy to learn how to master those mechanics.

There is obviously a responsibility on the gamer's part to work at learning those mechanics, but if a decent number of people complain about a particular, it means that the developer has failed to explain the way in which the game works properly to at least a certain extent.

So, fine, you can say all you want about some people "sucking" at driving, but when players struggle with a particular mechanic, the developer is at least partially at fault for making it either obtuse or unintuitive.

Jim Preston

05-04-2008, 04:22 AM

But as others have pointed out, drive like it's Forza. Brake before you turn, accelerate through turns, and for pete's sake, lay off the e-brake. You Are Not Ready! :)Playing "like it's Forza" is not an option. This isn't a game with empty tracks where you find the perfect line and slow-in-fast-out to scrape a few seconds off your time. This is a game that demands crazy races through sharp corners with changing elevation in a crowded environment. Many missions demand high-speed chases, and getting away from the cops certainly does.

I've played all the previous GTAs, and while I don't think the driving in IV is worse than previous installments, it still is and has always been very floaty and very twitchy, and I don't think that's an rare complaint. My hunch is that the reason the mechanics are this way is that it leads to far more dramatic chases and crashes. The stunt jumps, for example, simply wouldn't be possible in a game where the cars had realistic mass. You're absolutely right that there is a wide variety of car quality within GTA IV, and I'm sure some of the problem is that it simply isn't possible to have a good high-speed driving experience with the equivalent of a Ford Focus. But again, this isn't Forza because Forza has a realistic driving model. This isn't a driving simulator, it's a heist movie simulator.

WarrenM

05-04-2008, 04:31 AM

This isn't a driving simulator, it's a heist movie simulator.
I think that sums things up nicely. Crashes and crazy cornering are intended. You aren't meant to drive perfectly smoothly.

The driving model works well enough to give you Hollywood style car chases, not precision racing.

thamer

05-04-2008, 07:35 AM

Is there anyway to kick doors open or zoom while aiming (not the sniper rifle)?

Jazar

05-04-2008, 08:01 AM

Is there anyway to kick doors open or zoom while aiming (not the sniper rifle)?

Clicking down on the right stick will give you a little zoom.

NuclearWinter

05-04-2008, 08:01 AM

Is there anyway to kick doors open or zoom while aiming (not the sniper rifle)?

Press the right stick to zoom while aiming.

Zuwadza

05-04-2008, 08:40 AM

Is there anyway to kick doors open or zoom while aiming (not the sniper rifle)?

I usually shoot the doors open but an option to kick them open would have been a nice touch.

Brakara

05-04-2008, 10:06 AM

Saying someone sucks at something in a game isn't really a useful thing to say.

Perhaps not. My apologies if anyone was offended.

It's not hard to drive though. Brake before turning, ease off and then accelerate out of the turn. I haven't had any problems with any cars, not even with the "worst" ones.

tork

05-04-2008, 10:53 AM

Thank you. Reading this thread, I was going to say the same thing. It's not the GTA driving model that sucks, it's just you guys who suck at driving. The driving model is awesome.

I don't really agree. I'm a massive Gran Tursismo/Forza addict. I've probably spent something like 1000 hours playing games in those franchises, and it's true that when I started playing GTAIV, I recognized that it had a 'simmy' driving model, and adjusted quickly. I was very quickly doing bootlegger turns and drifting around corners, and I haven't had much trouble with the chases, but I still miss the old driving model. The new model brings some really interesting depth, and allows some pretty remarkable interactions to unfold, but the old model encouraged insane, pedal-always-to-the-metal driving where the new model punishes you for it. I think that's unfortunate, and contrary to the spirit of the earlier games.

I'm still having a ball with GTA IV, but the designers have consistently made the choice to sacrifice fun for the sake of realism, and I think that's a mistake. Realistic simulation isn't an end in itself, and it doesn't automatically lead to a better sandbox game. The earlier games in the series simulated a world which operated according to its own set of very Hollywood-inspired, fun-driven rules, and that was a major part of their appeal for me.

With every new iteration of GTA, ROckstar has also felt the need to impose more narrative on the game and assert more control over my play experience, and that drives me nuts. In some ways, III is still my favorite of the series, because the protagonist was pretty faceless, allowing me to largely define my own narrative. At least Niko seems to be less of a repulsive scumbag than Tommy Vercetti and CJ were. III also seemed to offer the greatest opportunity to 'rig the odds' in the missions, and to be least depedent on stupid scripting. The amount of clumsy scripting in IV is pretty thoroughly offensive. A number of people have already mentioned the laundromat mission early in the game, which in addition to preventing you from barricading the getaway car, (an annoying behavior, but fairly prevalent since Vice City) won't even allow you to put a better chase car in position, but what I find really irritating are the teleporting enemies hopping around the map to make sure I get to experience Rockstar's super-cool story.

The most offensive example of this I've seen so far is...

************(SPOILER)*************

...the mission where you wack Ivan - which did two things I find preposterous. First, Ivan repeatedly stops and stands around waiting for you to catch up to him. (Which is fortunate for me, since it took me about ten minutes to figure out how to climb a ladder in the game, while he waited around on top of the building yelling at me.) I've seen this happen a number of times in the game, where Rockstar has done such a poor job of designing a mission that it requires the target to wait around for you to catch up to him in order to prevent endless repeated failure. Thanks for watching out for me, Rockstar, but how about just using better mission design next time, and allowing the enemies freedom of action? Second, offensive railroaded scripting; once I finally made it to the roof, I saw Ivan climbing up onto the crane, and I shot him several times. He fell off the crane to the ground below, screaming, and I raced back down to the street to make sure he was dead. Once I reached the ground, the action switched to a cutscene of Vlad running across the top of the crane, and I discover that he has teleported to the top of a building across the street, where he is now standing around waiting for me to catch up, so we can have a thrilling chase across the rooftops of Liberty City. I climb back up, and the chase resumes; I shoot him every time I get line of sight, and ruin Rockstar's awesome and moving story in which Ivan slips off the roof, and I can press LB to save him, or X to kill him. Whoops.

In that mission, Ivan also abandons his car to run into the construction site where you are to have your confrontation, and he will do so even if you are nowhere close to him. I was not close enough to see him when this happened, and he might have had a decent shot at getting away if he'd just stayed in the car. But no, he gets out of the car and climbs to the rooftops, and the game gives me a tooltip telling me he's done so. This is stupid, and it's not the only time the game does it; I've also had the game proclaim that my target has just spontaneously wrecked his car, when I have no way of knowing that, and I know perfectly well that it's an entirely scripted moment. Events like that should be emergent in a game like this, not pre-scripted. If they're going to be pre-scripted, they should at least be triggered by my actions, rather than just being a designer railroad. Blah.

Again, I'm still totally hooked on the game, but every successive GTA game is more polished than the last, and less focused on what I consider to be the series' real strengths.