GTA IV expected to have $400m opening; biggest ever

[Gary Whitta]

When it comes to boffo openings, forget "Pirates of the Caribbean" -- think "Grand Theft Auto IV."

And think $400 million for the first week, a record for vidgames and possibly the biggest debut ever for an entertainment product.

Sources close to publisher Take-Two Interactive, whose Rockstar Games label is developing and releasing the title, said that the latest installment of the hit franchise will reach that figure and sell some 6 million units after it launches worldwide on April 29.

Though they rarely release the data, videogame publishers are able to accurately predict early game sales based on what retailers order.

Microsoft currently holds the record for the biggest videogame launch with "Halo 3," which grossed $300 million in its first week and sold about 5 million units.

"GTA IV" has even bigger potential, however, since it is available for both the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. "Halo 3" was an Xbox 360 exclusive.

Several industry analysts also told Daily Variety that they fully expect "GTA IV" to come close to and possibly exceed $400 million in sales out of the gate.

Vidgamer sellers have slightly varying predictions at this point, though all expect it to be huge. Blockbuster CEO Jim Keyes said that "GTA IV" will likely do "two times the volume" that "Halo 3" did for his chain, while GameStop senior veep of merchandising Bob McKenzie said the game is currently tracking slightly behind Microsoft's three-quel.

A Take-Two spokesman declined to comment.

The "Grand Theft Auto" series has traditionally done very well in the U.S., Canada and Europe but been somewhat weaker in Asia, the other major videogame market.

Comparisons to other media are difficult, since "Grand Theft Auto IV" costs $60 domestically and contains dozens, if not hundreds, of hours of content, whereas the average film ticket in the U.S. last year cost $6.88 and is good for a few hours of entertainment.

Nonetheless, Take-Two will likely be crowing that the perf of its game is close to, if not above, the No. 1 film bow of all time, "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End," which grossed $404 million worldwide in its first six days.

News comes as Take-Two's board is trying to fend off a $2 billion takeover attempt by Electronic Arts. Executive chairman Strauss Zelnick and CEO Ben Feder are sure to be touting early sales momentum for "GTA IV" at the company's annual meeting Thursday, which is, not coincidentally, a day before EA's tender offer to shareholders expires.

Take-Two management needs "Grand Theft Auto IV" to have a huge opening to keep up, if not bump, their company's stock price and justify their advice that shareholders reject the EA proposal. Some analysts have urged them to accept it, as EA is offering a 64% premium over the publisher's previous share price.

Boffo sales for "GTA IV" are widely expected and already priced into Take-Two stock.

Though it's clear that early sales for the game will be huge, it remains to be seen if reviews and buzz will drive "GTA IV" to ultimately perform as well as its predecessors. The franchise's last entry for consoles, "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas," sold a healthy 21.5 million units, making it one of the most successful videogames of all time.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117984089.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1

[Omniscia]

What does that work out to, 6.66 million copies, if we accept $60 as the standard price?

[Lh'owon]

I do wish they'd stop putting quotation marks around the titles.

Oh, money. Yes. Lots of it, I see. I hope it comes out on PC sooner rather than later.

[BobJustBob]

boffo
vidgames
Vidgamer
veep
three-quel
crowing
perf
bow
Boffo

I fucking hate Variety so much.

[rjcc]

seriously, it makes me want to tear my eyes out every time

[Bahimiron]

Boffo sales?

Edit: Beaten to the punch. Boffo!

[Roy Ziegler]

What a waste of money.

[Desslock]

I fucking hate Variety so much.

Haha, so true.

[RobotPants]

What a waste of money.

What's a waste of money? People spending that much on a videogame? People developing videogames? Subscribing to Variety? Your post is so mysterious!

[Omniscia]

I don't even bother trying to read any article on their site. More often than not, my browser's impeded by some stupid ad trying to convince me to install unnecessary, unwanted "spyware removal" software. It's easiest just not to visit Variety.

It is an abomination of the English language, though.

[TomChick]

That's how we talk out here in Los Angeles. You vidgamers should learn the language.

-Tom

[BobJustBob]

Thanks Arthur.

[Demon G Sides]

Boffo!

[Omniscia]

What ever would possess someone to speak like that? Is it the smog, Tom?

[TomChick]

That, and pretty much everywhere, it's gonna be hot.

-Tom

[Omniscia]

Oh, so, when Paris Hilton says "That's hot," she's merely commenting on the quotidian?

[Rorschach]

I'm still going to see Iron Man on opening night.

[Demon G Sides]

I guess I won't need a jacket, when I go to visit.

[shift6]

Pretty much everywhere, vidgamers are gonna be boffo.

[KMartin]

If my tax return comes in time and I get my 42" and xbox, you can be sure it will be my first xbox game purchase.

Edit: Why does my avatar say "Bad Girl"? lol

[Demon G Sides]

Post count.

[Soldats]

That, and pretty much everywhere, it's gonna be hot.

-Tom

Aw crap, I see Demon's already posted the punchline.

Uh, well, GTAIV looks kinda interesting. Maybe I'll get around to it after I finish Ridge Racer 7.

I loved messing with the cops in GTAIII; hope it's even better in GTAIV.

[Lum]

Thanks, Tom.

More on topic: I preordered some time back. Either it's going to be really hard to find or you won't be able to walk into a Wal-Mart without stubbing your toe on GTA4 boxes.

[rjcc]

It's not going to be hard to find, software never is, unless you're in a situation where its "oh I gotta get it at this gamestop" and naturally they say there's a shortage, you should've preordered, but every best buy has 100 copies.

[MythicalMino]

tomorrow, I go to pre-order GTA4....gonna get the special edition (or collector's edition, whatever it is called). I never played GTA3, but I loved Vice City, and really liked San Andreas quite a bit. So, this will be my first time in Liberty City....

Chris

[cliffski]

I wish marketing people would fuck off. I DONT CARE how many copies game X sells, what I care about is if I LIKE IT.
Some of my fave games are played by hardly anyone. it doesn't bother me. They might as well say
"ATTENTION SHEEP! THIS IS THE GAME EVERYONE ELSE WILL BUY, SO YOU MAKE SUREYOU BUY IT TOO!!!!!"
Bah moan complain.
From what In understand, the GTA games are good (if you like that sort of thing), so you would think they would be able to tout the GAME not the financial results.

[Talorc]

From what In understand, the GTA games are good (if you like that sort of thing), so you would think they would be able to tout the GAME not the financial results.

Don't forget that this article appears in Variety - the trade paper for the entertainment industry. How much various movies or games grossed is one of their staple story features.

The readers are not "vidgamers", they are entertainment industry participants. For them, like Take 2 shareholders, the financial results ARE the story - that is what they are interested in, because it is the business they are in.

If a "vidgamer" magazine (there are some left right?) was ranking how good games were by their gross sales, I'd totally agree.

[cliffski]

I guess I'm just a bit boffo. But even so, someone 'predicting' sales means fuck all. All that should matter to investors are the hard numbers at the end of the next quarter. it's all spin and bullshit till then.

[Brakara]

I guess I'm just a bit boffo. But even so, someone 'predicting' sales means fuck all.

Uhm, to investors that's pretty important (as in if they should hold, buy, or sell).

[WarrenM]

Some of my fave games are played by hardly anyone. it doesn't bother me.
I'm sure it bothers the developers who made them. Maybe if they'd had a decent marketing campaign more people would have bought those games.

[Brakara]

Not to mention that if they sell poorly, the chances of getting more games like that would be kinda slim.

[cliffski]

Uhm, to investors that's pretty important (as in if they should hold, buy, or sell).

well surely investors should be sensible enough to know that PR speak from someone guessing how many copies they will sell is NOT a good guide to how many copies they will sell. Remember how the PS3 was so awesome it was going to dominate everything, especially last-gen toys like the wii?

[rjcc]

the fact that Variety stays in business disproves your thinking.

[WarrenM]

well surely investors should be sensible enough
You don't follow the stock market, do you? 'Sensible' is a 4 letter word there.

"The CEO of CompanyX skinned his knee playing racket ball! SELL! SELL!"
"A gum wrapper blew past the front of this store. BUY! BUY!"

[Omniscia]

I thought they'd determined sex hormones drove the market?

[Brakara]

well surely investors should be sensible enough to know that PR speak from someone guessing how many copies they will sell is NOT a good guide to how many copies they will sell. Remember how the PS3 was so awesome it was going to dominate everything, especially last-gen toys like the wii?

Actually, Sony's sales projections to the market haven't been that far off. And if a company is caught trying to build up the stock price by vastly overstating sales forecasts, wouldn't they be liable for a lawsuit by the shareholders?

Also, in this case Take-Two can make a pretty accurate forecast (at least much better than anyone else) since they are aware of the number of pre-orders.

I'm really puzzled though, about why you are so agitated by the article?

[Aeon221]

Actually, Sony's sales projections to the market haven't been that far off. And if a company is caught trying to build up the stock price by vastly overstating sales forecasts, wouldn't they be liable for a lawsuit by the shareholders?

Also, in this case Take-Two can make a pretty accurate forecast (at least much better than anyone else) since they are aware of the number of pre-orders.

I'm really puzzled though, about why you are so agitated by the article?

That would be because he has only two ways of reacting to absolutely anything he sees: anger or outrage. Sometimes they combine in ways that would make a sailor with tourettes blush.

[cliffski]

sigh.
Sorry I thought it was ok to have opinions on an internet forum, seems that it is not. my apologies.

[datter]

Jesus, what internet have you been using?

[WarrenM]

Sorry I thought it was ok to have opinions on an internet forum, seems that it is not. my apologies.
It is OK. The problem you're having is not being able to accept differing opinions coming back at you. Have you considered venting into a blog with the comment feature turned off?

[Kraaze]

I guess I'm just a bit boffo. But even so, someone 'predicting' sales means fuck all. All that should matter to investors are the hard numbers at the end of the next quarter. it's all spin and bullshit till then.

Tee hee.

[Neopythia]

If my tax return comes in time and I get my 42" and xbox, you can be sure it will be my first xbox game purchase.

Edit: Why does my avatar say "Bad Girl"? lol

I like my Bad Girl title, I'll be sad to see it go.

Back on point I'm continually fascinated with the ongoing evolution of the gaming industry and how it is becoming more and more like a traditional "Hollywood" business model.

I'm also waiting for the day when Variety combines its show-biz shorthand with IM L33t-speak.

[ElGuapo]

I'm looking forward to all the Fox New and CNN bad press surrounding the release. What new depravity will the new RAGE engine allow us to commit? Killing hookers? Defiling hookers? Defiling killed hookers?

I'm sure Fox will fill us in.

[datter]

Is that confirmed that there's defiling? I could really use some quality defiling.

[Kael]

I'm looking forward to all the Fox New and CNN bad press surrounding the release. What new depravity will the new RAGE engine allow us to commit? Killing hookers? Defiling hookers? Defiling killed hookers?

I'm sure Fox will fill us in.

Attention all guys between the ages of 15 and 50. If you have a desire to commit bodily harm, molest a carebear/picnic table/angolin pack mule, or want to throw a plugged in extension cord into your developments kiddie pool, please perform these acts either in April or wait until June. Because every crime reported in May will be attributed to the evils of GTA4 and video games in general and Im tired of hearing the stories.

If you feel like you just cant get through May without running onto a bus full of nuns dressed as Jesus and throwing strawberry jam on everyone (and lets admit it, who hasn't felt that urge). Then at least have the decency to watch 24 hours of Oprah beforehand and scream that you are doing as she commanded during your rampage.

[Ephraim]

If you feel like you just cant get through May without running onto a bus full of nuns dressed as Jesus and throwing strawberry jam on everyone (and lets admit it, who hasn't felt that urge). Then at least have the decency to watch 24 hours of Oprah beforehand and scream that you are doing as she commanded during your rampage.

Better still if you watch 24 hours of Fox News and attribute it to them.

[Aeon221]

If you feel like you just cant get through May without running onto a bus full of nuns dressed as Jesus and throwing strawberry jam on everyone (and lets admit it, who hasn't felt that urge). Then at least have the decency to watch 24 hours of Oprah beforehand and scream that you are doing as she commanded during your rampage.

Is it okay if I buy this and spray mayonnaise everywhere?


http://www.costumesupercenter.com/product/mens+costumes/new+for+2008/burger+king.do

http://images.costumesupercenter.com/images/en_US/customViewLarger//local/products/detail/888482.jpg

[John Sansker]

Is it okay if I buy this and spray mayonnaise everywhere?


http://www.costumesupercenter.com/product/mens+costumes/new+for+2008/burger+king.do

http://images.costumesupercenter.com/images/en_US/customViewLarger//local/products/detail/888482.jpg



Yes.
Just remember not to make any sound at all while doing it.


No PC announcement yet, fuck Rockstar.

[Mordrak]

No PC announcement yet, fuck Rockstar.

Ya. There probably won't be until months after the console (if at all). It makes me sad, but I hope GTA is a big enough franchise to warrant a PC port. I dug the full color hardcover manual that doubled as the dvd case for San Andreas.

[John Sansker]

Ya. There probably won't be until months after the console (if at all). It makes me sad, but I hope GTA is a big enough franchise to warrant a PC port. I dug the full color hardcover manual that doubled as the dvd case for San Andreas.


What's even worse, I picked up the April issue of Edge and the cover story is an 8-10 page history of Rockstar Games/GTA series and what they wrote about GTA IV........(GRRRRRRRR)

[Mordrak]

What's even worse, I picked up the April issue of Edge and the cover story is an 8-10 page history of Rockstar Games/GTA series and what they wrote about GTA IV........(GRRRRRRRR)

Stay strong! Hehe. If I had the cash, I'd seriously consider picking up a 360 for it. However, even if I did, I think I'd worry too much about Microsoft's hardware failing.

[Bill Dungsroman]

So is there an official announcement of what is going to be in the Collector's Edition and how much it is going to cost? I'd love to know what you suckers are gonna get fleeced for^H^H^H^dedicated gamers are going to get in your neato CE's.

[bago]

Get with the times. The predictions are prefectly cromulent.

[datter]

Well said. My planned kicking of bago in the balls is now put on indefinite hiatus.

[Moore]

So is there an official announcement of what is going to be in the Collector's Edition and how much it is going to cost? I'd love to know what you suckers are gonna get fleeced for^H^H^H^dedicated gamers are going to get in your neato CE's.

art book, soundtrack, safe desposit box, duffel bag, keychain. I think thats it.

[MythicalMino]

supposedly, it is an "exclusive" soundtrack....only available for that release....

[Jab2565]

Has there been any information on the music featured in 4 yet?

[Marcin]

Not directly, but there's a listing of all the radio stations here (http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/grandtheftauto4/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-42599059&pid=933036). Well, all revealed so far, that is.

[Papageno]

Stay strong! Hehe. If I had the cash, I'd seriously consider picking up a 360 for it. However, even if I did, I think I'd worry too much about Microsoft's hardware failing.

I wasn't going to touch the 360 with a ten foot pole for the first couple of years because of those same concerns, but when they came out with the Falcon motherboard/CPU revision it seemed they were getting a handle on things. I've had mine since October sometime and had quite a few long play sessions of Crackdown, Forza 2, Call of Juarez, and Burnout Paradise--the DVD drive is loud when you're playing, but the unit barely feels warm (vs. a friend's Spring 2006 unit which seems to get quite hot--and which I suspect will red ring right when we're all set to play some GTA IV multiplayer). No crashes, no graphical glitches, nothing, and I've confirmed that it's a Falcon.

[theKevin]

Should I preorder GTA IV, or do you fellas think I should be able just to walk in and buy a copy on the day it comes out? My local EB is pretty indicative of the nationwide situation (IE: The sell out things that sell out most everywhere else, Rock Band, Wiis, etc. etc.).

[MythicalMino]

I pre ordered just in case....BUT....I also wanted the special edition, and I know those can be very hard to come by sometimes after release day.

[rjcc]

Should I preorder GTA IV, or do you fellas think I should be able just to walk in and buy a copy on the day it comes out? My local EB is pretty indicative of the nationwide situation (IE: The sell out things that sell out most everywhere else, Rock Band, Wiis, etc. etc.).

games don't sell out

except at EB and gamestop because they want you to preorder. you don't have anywhere else to go?

[datter]

I happened to be in the store so I pre-ordered, but generally I don't bother.

[theKevin]

games don't sell out

except at EB and gamestop because they want you to preorder. you don't have anywhere else to go?

Not really. In my experience, Best Buys, Targets, etc. don't carry games the day they come out. (At least the ones in my area).

I better fucking preorder if EB is going to "micro econ" copies of GTA IV.

[Jab2565]

art book, soundtrack, safe desposit box, duffel bag, keychain. I think thats it.

Usually I love to get collector's edtions , but I'm not seeing anything I would like in this case. How is the soundtrack going to be special,does it feature music not from the game or is it just a soundtrack with all the in game music?

[MythicalMino]

honestly, I do not know about the soundtrack....I have just read that it is exclusive for that release....who knows....

[Moore]

I wanted the little metal box and had the dough.

[rjcc]

I wanted the license plate from amazon

[Bahimiron]

I'm down with CEs that come with stupid tchotchkes for the workdesk. Big Daddy figure? Yes, sir! I donno of any CEs I plan to buy now 'til Fallout 3. Vault Boy bobblehead? Yes, please!

[theKevin]

Vault Boy bobblehead? Yes, please!

Has that been "Bobblehead: CONFIRMED"ed?

[BobJustBob]

Has that been "Bobblehead: CONFIRMED"ed?

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/august07/daddy-v-boy.jpg

[Bahimiron]

That looks about right.

[MythicalMino]

I will be going to the midnight opening....anyone know what exactly happens at those things? Anything special? Or just go get your product, then leave? I have never been to one before.....

Chris

[Foxstab]

What happened to its head, Pete Hines ego?

[WarrenM]

I will be going to the midnight opening....anyone know what exactly happens at those things? Anything special? Or just go get your product, then leave? I have never been to one before.....
My understanding is that you shuffle in and buy a copy of the game while the cashiers try not to cast their stares of derision and sympathy directly at you.

[Harkonis]

My understanding is that you shuffle in and buy a copy of the game while the cashiers try not to cast their stares of derision and sympathy directly at you.
I find that midnight sales can be VERY entertaining if you pre-party and bring at least 2 hot girls per guy. Nobody gives you looks of derision or sympathy either while you wait in line or while you buy whatever you're waiting for. You get such extreme stares of jealousy.

He's getting the game AND them, I suck. lol

Did it twice and was a blast both times. It's even cooler when one of the girls is there to buy her copy as well.

[WarrenM]

Do you then go home and have the girls blow you while you read the manual? Sounds awesome!!1!

[Midnight Son]

Damn, it's good to be a gangsta.....!

[Mordrak]

Do you then go home and have the girls blow you while you read the manual? Sounds awesome!!1!

No. They charge extra for that.

[Harkonis]

Do you then go home and have the girls blow you while you read the manual? Sounds awesome!!1!
They enjoy the games so would rather play it than me.

[Papageno]

I'm considering going--but only if I can take the 29th off. From what I understand, if you preordered you prepay starting at around 10 pm (take a book or handheld) and get some kind of voucher, then at midnight they start the actual distribution.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

Since I pre-ordered, I'm confident I can wait 12 hours, and pick it up during daylight the next day.

Question for those who might now - will the game be in the store for pickup (for pre-orders) on the 29th or 30th? I've seen games go both ways (in-store date vs shipping date).

[Moore]

I'm considering going--but only if I can take the 29th off. From what I understand, if you preordered you prepay starting at around 10 pm (take a book or handheld) and get some kind of voucher, then at midnight they start the actual distribution.

Huh. I'm paid up, and hopping off a plane, swinging by on the way home and hopefully not waiting much. I'll be rested but wife will be tired. I plan to plan from that night to the next night at midnight.

[wonderpug]

Question for those who might now - will the game be in the store for pickup (for pre-orders) on the 29th or 30th? I've seen games go both ways (in-store date vs shipping date).

The 29th. The game has already shipped to most stores, and it's sitting in back storerooms this very minute calling out to us with its siren's song.

[Jab2565]

If your getting it from gamestop they're probably going to stick with the midnight launch, with Smash brothers they had copies out but did not sell them until 12:00 am on the dot.

[Reed]

I remember with San Andreas EB Games started selling them at 9PM. Would be nice if the same were true for GTA IV.

Is the official word midnight though or is it just assumption at this point? I would think that GameStop would be advertising the details by now, but haven't seen anything.

[Moore]

The gamestop I ordered from told me Midnight, so unless they want a broken window, it'd better be ready and waiting then.

[Papageno]

The guy at the EBGames I ordered from told me that midnight would be the actual distribution. Luckily this place is in an indoor mall, so I won't have to stand in the cold and the rain. Oh, and I managed to take the day off, and I'm getting my brakes done that day anyway (the official reason I'm taking the day off, hehe), so I'm definitely doing the midnight thing. I suppose my 47-year-old ass will look pretty funny standing there among the teens and the 20-somethings. Needless to say, I'm single. :-)

[forgeforsaken]

It's already out in the wild. Seems like some stores down under have broken date. Videos of gameplay showing up in various places.

[WarrenM]

I suppose my 47-year-old ass will look pretty funny standing there among the teens and the 20-somethings. Needless to say, I'm single. :-)
At least you'll be able to ogle the cute girls in line and ... oh right.

[theKevin]

It's already out in the wild. Seems like some stores down under have broken date. Videos of gameplay showing up in various places.

A commenter on Joystiq reported that there is a torrent of the disk image of GTA 4 already on Pirate's Bay, weighing in at 6.4GB.

I'm swinging by the mall tonight for other business, and I finally decide I might as well stop by the EB there and pre-order. Better safe than sorry, I guess.

[BleedTheFreak]

I've been hitting YouTube on and off this morning, and catching several gameplay videos (most are removed by the time I click on them, but I've caught 3 of them now) and I have to say, wow. I'm surprised they don't leave the videos up, they are very cool. I like the official movies just fine, sure, but seeing someone actually PLAYING it is so much more satisfying than a well edited extended cut-scene (which is what the official movies are, mostly). Some cool stuff here, especially one video I saw with some gunplay, that looks very exciting.

Pre-ordered at Gamestop.

[forgeforsaken]

Gametrailers and DailyMotion have them.

[rjcc]

the one I saw on dailymotion was horrible, the person playing sucked. the opening cutscene looked cool though

[BleedTheFreak]

the one I saw on dailymotion was horrible, the person playing sucked. the opening cutscene looked cool though

Yeah, there have been some with really shitty quality too, but I saw at least one that had really nice clarity/color and it was a great video of the guy driving around, it looked smooth as heck. Very cool.

I haven't seen any cutscenes, I've been skipping past them just to watch the actual gameplay. Good stuff, from what I've seen.

[Shadarr]

I like the official movies just fine, sure, but seeing someone actually PLAYING it is so much more satisfying than a well edited extended cut-scene (which is what the official movies are, mostly).
I never get that. I buy games to play, not to watch cutscenes. When I watch a video of a game I want to see the gameplay footage, and yet usually you're lucky if they put 10 seconds in amongst the interminable minutes of slow-motion pans and lens flairs. You can watch entire preview videos and have no idea whether the game is first or third person.

[BleedTheFreak]

I never get that. I buy games to play, not to watch cutscenes. When I watch a video of a game I want to see the gameplay footage, and yet usually you're lucky if they put 10 seconds in amongst the interminable minutes of slow-motion pans and lens flairs. You can watch entire preview videos and have no idea whether the game is first or third person.

Yes! Exactly!!

[Marcin]

Gametrailers and DailyMotion have them.

Direct link? All I find is the official ones.

[rjcc]

search gta leak on dailymotion. the first one i found is still up

[forgeforsaken]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x56n5k_gta-4-gameplay_videogames
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/GTA%2BIV%2Bgameplay/video/x56mr4_gta-iv-gameplay-n7_videogames
And a list of em
http://www.dailymotion.com/Yoxux

[Xemu]

Oh man... I looked at like the first 30 seconds of one of the gameplay ones and had to shut it off. It looks very very cool but I don't want to be spoiled.

This is turning into a serious test of willpower... time to just go re-watch all the trailers on the official site I guess. :)

[Marcin]

I never get that. I buy games to play, not to watch cutscenes. When I watch a video of a game I want to see the gameplay footage, and yet usually you're lucky if they put 10 seconds in amongst the interminable minutes of slow-motion pans and lens flairs. You can watch entire preview videos and have no idea whether the game is first or third person.

Have you checked out MattPlays (http://mattplays.com)? Just one guy, but it's a great concept. No commentary, no cutscenes, just several minutes of regular playtime.

Thanks for the links, although I've only succeeded in making my anticipation worse ...

Edit: I wonder if Nico can get a skateboard? That would be brilliant :D

Edit edit: how about replay? Here's hoping.

[Papageno]

Dude, what's with the body roll on some of those cars? I hope not all of them drive like that. Does your skill go up the more you drive or something (and thus does the handling get a little better)?

[Shadarr]

I hope they ditched that stupid mechanic. Driving should get harder as you play the game more, not easier. What's the point of making it easy after you get better at playing? It's like a reverse learning curve.

[DustyTheHamster]

So you think they will be banning the accounts of those that play on live, or whatever the ps3 one is called too? Also the cars shouldn't handle better as you gain 'skill' in the game, they should get easier to control because you are learning how to do it.

[forgeforsaken]

So you think they will be banning the accounts of those that play on live, or whatever the ps3 one is called too? Also the cars shouldn't handle better as you gain 'skill' in the game, they should get easier to control because you are learning how to do it.

Can't see why. If a store sold it to you early it's not your fault. Though if they can prove they are pirates, then yeah.

[Moore]

the pirates cant play it if hooked to live, so as far as bannings go, thats a given but only for the few who go on live I'd imagine.

[intruder]

the pirates cant play it if hooked to live, so as far as bannings go, thats a given but only for the few who go on live I'd imagine.

Well anyone that can't read deseves to be banned:

"!!! IMPORTANT: !!!
DONT PLAY THIS GAME WHILE CONNECTED TO XBOX LIVE TILL NEXT WEEK!
DONT PLAY THIS GAME WHILE CONNECTED TO XBOX LIVE TILL NEXT WEEK!
DONT PLAY THIS GAME WHILE CONNECTED TO XBOX LIVE TILL NEXT WEEK!
setcha xbox live profiles to hide your games
list from dirty little spys. or skip online
till next monday. otherwise you might get banned
for playing this bitch early.
if u dont mind, well.. like we care.

and guys, seriously, go and buy this one!

R* deserves it..."


Pretty straightforward if you ask me...

Edit: Console gaming is d0med oh noes!

[Lizard_King]

I hope they ditched that stupid mechanic. Driving should get harder as you play the game more, not easier. What's the point of making it easy after you get better at playing? It's like a reverse learning curve.

I don't know if driving skill should "level" or not (I've seen static and improving versions that I liked), but your idea is undeniably the worst possible variant I've heard, at least as you state it there. Maybe they can fix the shooting so it starts off easy and then by the end of it you're firing with Silent Hill 2 levels of accuracy. That would be a really fun sandbox game...the whole time in Assassin's Creed and Crackdown I was wishing I would lose abilities as I advanced.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

I don't know if driving skill should "level" or not (I've seen static and improving versions that I liked), but your idea is undeniably the worst possible variant I've heard, at least as you state it there. Maybe they can fix the shooting so it starts off easy and then by the end of it you're firing with Silent Hill 2 levels of accuracy. That would be a really fun sandbox game...the whole time in Assassin's Creed and Crackdown I was wishing I would lose abilities as I advanced.
What, are you trying to imply that you're a better driver (in real life) now than when you were when you first got your permit/license? Please.

[wonderpug]

Dude, what's with the body roll on some of those cars? I hope not all of them drive like that. Does your skill go up the more you drive or something (and thus does the handling get a little better)?

I've been reading some written impressions of the game and the short version is that the cars handle fine, the people driving in those videos are idiots.

Here's the long version:

They handle really well, no complaints. Well, the majority handle well. If you steal an old beat up tank then it will handle like an old beat up tank. It's much more realistic than previous games and each car handles differently, it doesn't just have a different top speed.

If you're doing about 80mph down a street then it will take you time to brake, if you slam on the handbrake you'll skid but come to a stop quicker. If you're speeding down a street at break neck speed you won't be able to turn on a dime and you can lose control easy enough.

So essentially they handle well, in the middle of arcadey and sim (more leaning towards arcade). I stole a nifty sports car and was avoiding cop cars whilst weaving in and out of traffic at terrifying speeds.

What I do like is that, in previous gta games, it was almost impossible to drive normal. You couldn't try to blend in and follow normal traffic around because cars didn't handle well enough and AI wasn't good enough. Now if you like you can drive to and from places steadily, obeying all the rules of the road. The traffic flow is steady and intelligent.
. . .
During [a mission's car chase] you can hold "B" to focus the camera on [the guy you're following], which is exceptionally handy when driving along. You can keep an eye on where he is whilst still dodging traffic. . . . You weave in and out of other cars and can still stay on his tail. First time I tried it, I smashed in to everything and the guy ended up miles away from me. After getting used to the cars I was perfectly adept at following and didn't hit anything.
. . .
Hope that rambling about cars made some sense though It basically boils down to "Yes the handling is fine, yes the people in those videos are idiots"

[BobJustBob]

Take-2 better drop the street date quickly before the backlash begins!

[forgeforsaken]

Take-2 better drop the street date quickly before the backlash begins!

That would be nice. Supposed to rain here this weekend, so would be good to have.

[idrisz]

Well anyone that can't read deseves to be banned:

"!!! IMPORTANT: !!!
DONT PLAY THIS GAME WHILE CONNECTED TO XBOX LIVE TILL NEXT WEEK!
DONT PLAY THIS GAME WHILE CONNECTED TO XBOX LIVE TILL NEXT WEEK!
DONT PLAY THIS GAME WHILE CONNECTED TO XBOX LIVE TILL NEXT WEEK!
setcha xbox live profiles to hide your games
list from dirty little spys. or skip online
till next monday. otherwise you might get banned
for playing this bitch early.
if u dont mind, well.. like we care.

and guys, seriously, go and buy this one!

R* deserves it..."


Pretty straightforward if you ask me...

Edit: Console gaming is d0med oh noes!

Yeah for PS3...

I assuming probably it because the media PS3 uses right now. maybe when Bluray burner and disc come down in price, we will see mods for ps3 as well.

[Papageno]

Take2 would never officially just allow everyone to sell it whenever (not that I would complain, of course).

[idrisz]

Street date are made to be broken.. the earlier the better.

I'm ranking all the closeby game stores on how quick they release their games before release date. I tend to notices that I go back to stores that gives me my game earlier more than others who follow the street date.

[Shadarr]

I don't know if driving skill should "level" or not (I've seen static and improving versions that I liked), but your idea is undeniably the worst possible variant I've heard, at least as you state it there. Maybe they can fix the shooting so it starts off easy and then by the end of it you're firing with Silent Hill 2 levels of accuracy. That would be a really fun sandbox game...the whole time in Assassin's Creed and Crackdown I was wishing I would lose abilities as I advanced.
I just mean that instead of making driving easier as you go along, if they're going to give you any vehicle-handling-assist it should be at the beginning, when you suck, and not later on when you don't need it. Really, I think they should just make the cars handle the way they handle and leave it alone. You will get better at controlling your cars as you go along, so there's no need for an artificial levelling mechanic.

[bigdruid]

I hope they ditched that stupid mechanic. Driving should get harder as you play the game more, not easier. What's the point of making it easy after you get better at playing? It's like a reverse learning curve.
QFT.

If they want you to level up your car driving, they should give you some bonus like "cars go faster", rather than making cars handle better.

This was my biggest issue with San Andreas - they inverted the challenge curve (especially true on the bikes, where hitting any bump would throw you to the pavement until you'd logged a ton of time).

[Xemu]

I've just had to stop reading the NeoGAF thread on GTA... too many minor spoilers.

OMG 4 days away still.... I need to go into hibernation for 4 days.

[Marcin]

Thanks a lot for posting that. Now I have 4 days to agonize whether I want to be minor-spoiled.

AGONIZE.

[Xemu]

BTW, be *SUPER CAREFUL* wandering forums at other sites (gta4.net) etc. Some jerks think it's really funny to spoil some of the ending of the game in the subject / title line of posts. :(

[forgeforsaken]

BTW, be *SUPER CAREFUL* wandering forums at other sites (gta4.net) etc. Some jerks think it's really funny to spoil some of the ending of the game in the subject / title line of posts. :(

This is why they need to just release the game already.

[MyNameIsWill]

How are they getting the game? Are some stores releasing early, or are they just pirating?

[idrisz]

some stores break stree date + people released PAL and NTSC on torrent already.

[theKevin]

How are they getting the game? Are some stores releasing early, or are they just pirating?

There are disk images of the Xbox 360 verison of the game already on some torrent sites. I would imagine most of them are coming from there.

Ironically, a friend told me today that in the "readme" of the pirated GTA 4 torrent, the warez guy actually says something like "You guys should only use this torrent until the game comes out, then buy it, because Rockstar deserves it."

[Sol Invictus]

The pirates write that in every NFO. They're really full of shit.

[ElGuapo]

Man, how can it be torrented already? Doesn't Rockstar control their code? With a project this huge, how can the code get leaked?

It has to be an inside job, doesn't it? Who is fucking them? Isn't there a way to control this?

I might just not go on the internet until release day.

[theKevin]

Man, how can it be torrented already? Doesn't Rockstar control their code? With a project this huge, how can the code get leaked?

It has to be an inside job, doesn't it? Who is fucking them? Isn't there a way to control this?

I might just not go on the internet until release day.

It's my understanding that the torrent is just a disk image of the Xbox 360 DVD. In which case, I'd imagine, somebody down the supply chain got ahold of a retail copy, took it home, and ripped it.

About 40 people who use 360voice have already played GTA IV. (http://www.360voice.com/game.asp?game=GTA+IV)

[idrisz]

I think if they really want to deter the pirates, release only on ps3, then after a couple weeks, release on 360.

I'm sure that PS3 isn't hacked right now, but 360 can be easily modded.

But I doubt Rockstar cares much because piracy doesn't make much a dent in a title like GTA.

[Xemu]

Spoilers have made an impact on my memory I cannot reverse, however. :(

[theKevin]

I think if they really want to deter the pirates, release only on ps3, then after a couple weeks, release on 360.

I'm sure that PS3 isn't hacked right now, but 360 can be easily modded.

But I doubt Rockstar cares much because piracy doesn't make much a dent in a title like GTA.

Next time Sony writes a big check for a multi-platform game to be a "timed exclusive" to the PS3, they can use your excuse.

[rjcc]

It's my understanding that the torrent is just a disk image of the Xbox 360 DVD. In which case, I'd imagine, somebody down the supply chain got ahold of a retail copy, took it home, and ripped it.

About 40 people who use 360voice have already played GTA IV. (http://www.360voice.com/game.asp?game=GTA+IV)

That's exactly what's happened. once it goes out for duplication and ships to retailers, it's game over. Apparently there's even video out there of the PS3 version, I'm assuming someone just took a copy home

[forgeforsaken]

PS3 version is out there too, first leaked video was actually from PS3 not 360.

[idrisz]

PS3 version is out there too, first leaked video was actually from PS3 not 360.

yeah those ones just from breaking the street date not from pirates.

[ElGuapo]

Huh. I guess it's retailers, didn't think of that. Hard to avoid that. So if the retailers have it what's the point of holding it in inventory? That seems dumb to me. I can't think of another business model (besides entertainment) that works like that.

Oh, we have the new flavor of M&Ms in! But we can't sell them to you yet.

[BlueJackalope]

Huh. I guess it's retailers, didn't think of that. Hard to avoid that. So if the retailers have it what's the point of holding it in inventory? That seems dumb to me. I can't think of another business model (besides entertainment) that works like that.

Oh, we have the new flavor of M&Ms in! But we can't sell them to you yet.

Isn't the street date thing to keep from boning the mom and pops who don't get the game in early?

[rjcc]

Huh. I guess it's retailers, didn't think of that. Hard to avoid that. So if the retailers have it what's the point of holding it in inventory? That seems dumb to me. I can't think of another business model (besides entertainment) that works like that.

Oh, we have the new flavor of M&Ms in! But we can't sell them to you yet.

? Plenty of electronics work like that. Dealerships get in cars as demos but they're not supposed to sell them till a certain date, which other industry has that kind of demand?

[Shadarr]

Isn't the street date thing to keep from boning the mom and pops who don't get the game in early?
Yeah, and smaller towns and what-not. If you want to do a simultaneous launch, stores are going to have to get it early and sit on it to make sure all stores get it.

[rjcc]

I thought also making sure the 1st day/week numbers were pumped up as much as possible was also a reason.

[Papageno]

Spoilers have made an impact on my memory I cannot reverse, however. :(

See, to me though, the joy in a GTA game is not about the story but about the actual doing of all the crap you can do, so spoilers aren't really that big a deal.

BTW, does anyone know what the story is on whether there are vigilante side missions in GTA IV? I loved those in the last three "main" titles (III, VC and SA). I'm disappointed that they ditched the parachutes for this iteration, especially with so many tall buildings to jump off of. Anyone know why they did that?

[theKevin]

See, to me though, the joy in a GTA game is not about the story but about the actual doing of all the crap you can do, so spoilers aren't really that big a deal.

BTW, does anyone know what the story is on whether there are vigilante side missions in GTA IV? I loved those in the last three "main" titles (III, VC and SA). I'm disappointed that they ditched the parachutes for this iteration, especially with so many tall buildings to jump off of. Anyone know why they did that?

They also dumped the customization of the player character. Niko can change his clothes, but you can't change his hair, or his physique, which I enjoyed in San Andreas. (Certainly, forcing 300 pound CJ drag his ass from the po-po wasn't fun, but it was a cool mechanic).

After getting this news about the parachute, I've got the feeling that this might be going down a Driv3r route. Too hipster cool and realistic for its own good.

[Marcin]

No bikes either, apparently. That was one of my favorite methods of taking in the sights :/

I guess I'll just have to cope with one of those boatlike 70s cruisers shown in the videos. Shuckidarns.

[wonderpug]

No bikes either, apparently. That was one of my favorite methods of taking in the sights :/

I guess I'll just have to cope with one of those boatlike 70s cruisers shown in the videos. Shuckidarns.

There are motorcycles. Or did you mean bicycles?

They also dumped the customization of the player character. Niko can change his clothes, but you can't change his hair, or his physique, which I enjoyed in San Andreas. (Certainly, forcing 300 pound CJ drag his ass from the po-po wasn't fun, but it was a cool mechanic).

You can change your multiplayer avatar, though, male or female.

[Bahimiron]

They also dumped the customization of the player character. Niko can change his clothes, but you can't change his hair, or his physique, which I enjoyed in San Andreas. (Certainly, forcing 300 pound CJ drag his ass from the po-po wasn't fun, but it was a cool mechanic).

God, please, no. No exercising and eating. That goes beyond the mechanic I'm lookin' for.

[bigdruid]

They also dumped the customization of the player character. Niko can change his clothes, but you can't change his hair, or his physique...
As long as they don't make "changing clothes" require a 45 second interlude each time you put on an item like it did in San Andreas, I'll be a happy man.

Geez that was a clunky, slow-ass interface.

[Rock8man]

As long as they don't make "changing clothes" require a 45 second interlude each time you put on an item like it did in San Andreas, I'll be a happy man.

Geez that was a clunky, slow-ass interface.

Yeah, it was pretty bad. It was bad even on the Xbox, where I played it, it was probably even worse on the PS2. One of my favorite additions to the Xbox version which I hope they keep was that you could play back the last 30 seconds or so (or was it longer?) of the action, so if your friends were out of the room when something really cool happened, you could pause and wait for them, and then play the replay.

And in GTA, something cool happened a LOT.

[Coca Cola Zero]

I think if they really want to deter the pirates, release only on ps3, then after a couple weeks, release on 360.


"Dear Xbox 360 GTA4 fans,

Due to the recent pirating of GTA4 for the Xbox 360, we're going to hold back the release of the game on your platform. We realize this doesn't stop the pirates from playing the game or anything, because hell, they've already got the game! For free! But as for YOU, the paying customer, we don't really want your money right now. Come back in a few weeks.

Did we mention that the pirates are playing it right now? For free? Too bad you, honest customer, won't be playing until May/June!

Thanks a bunch,

- Rockstar"


...yeah that would make a lot of sense.

[Shadari]

Y'all enjoy that watered-down PC of yours. ;)

[bago]

We will. We'll be playing GTA4 you see...

[idrisz]

"Dear Xbox 360 GTA4 fans,

Due to the recent pirating of GTA4 for the Xbox 360, we're going to hold back the release of the game on your platform. We realize this doesn't stop the pirates from playing the game or anything, because hell, they've already got the game! For free! But as for YOU, the paying customer, we don't really want your money right now. Come back in a few weeks.

Did we mention that the pirates are playing it right now? For free? Too bad you, honest customer, won't be playing until May/June!

Thanks a bunch,

- Rockstar"


...yeah that would make a lot of sense.

Pirates get the early release early because the game is already in store!!! if they never shipped the game to the store why where there even be pirated copies out there. the only other way is to get them directly from supplier which isn't the case for GTA 4.

Yes, no one on 360 will be playing GTA, both customer or the pirates, but blame MS for making their console so easy to hack.

that's exactly what lots of developers done with PC games, either not release on PC or delay release because of the pirates, it's just not as bad as on 360 like it's on PC at moment.

[Kael]

Pirates get the early release early because the game is already in store!!! if they never shipped the game to the store why where there even be pirated copies out there. the only other way is to get them directly from supplier which isn't the case for GTA 4.

Yes, no one on 360 will be playing GTA, both customer or the pirates, but blame MS for making their console so easy to hack.

that's exactly what lots of developers done with PC games, either not release on PC or delay release because of the pirates, it's just not as bad as on 360 like it's on PC at moment.

Pirates can also get games from playtesters and reviewers (prerelease leaked games are often a pre-Gold version and often buggy because of it).

And I don't blame microsoft for "making their console so easy to hack". Thats like blaming theft on the store because it didn't have a good enough lock on the door. Responsibility still falls squarely on the shoulders of the pirates (may they all burn in hell).

[Bahimiron]

Yes, no one on 360 will be playing GTA, both customer or the pirates, but blame MS for making their console so easy to hack.

Microsoft shouldn't have worn that dress.

[idrisz]

Pirates can also get games from playtesters and reviewers (prerelease leaked games are often a pre-Gold version and often buggy because of it).

And I don't blame microsoft for "making their console so easy to hack". Thats like blaming theft on the store because it didn't have a good enough lock on the door. Responsibility still falls squarely on the shoulders of the pirates (may they all burn in hell).

If you are playing an major MMO, and suddenly someone discover a cheat/dupe/exploit in the game that upset the entire game balance, and the cheat/dupe/exploit was never addressed at all, guess who's fault it is.

I rather have the pirates play a game halfway through and got their save game deleted/corrupt or progression break than having them playing a fully functional playable build.

I just thought of something, MS doesn't care much about spending money and improving security simply because they don't lose any profit from people pirating games, they makes money from Xbox live subscription/console sales/digital download.

[Shadari]

We will. We'll be playing GTA4 you see...
That was a low blow. No fair!

[rjcc]

I just thought of something, MS doesn't care much about spending money and improving security simply because they don't lose any profit from people pirating games, they makes money from Xbox live subscription/console sales/digital download.

and they say this place is smarter than neoGAF.

[Jab2565]

What usually determines when a retail outlet gets a big name game in? I remember for Vice City, the EB near me didn't get their shipments in until the launch day and it was late and I had to return that night to get my copy. For security reasons, wouldn't it be easier for publishers to hold shipping copies of their games until the release day?

[rjcc]

What usually determines when a retail outlet gets a big name game in? I remember for Vice City, the EB near me didn't get their shipments in until the launch day and it was late and I had to return that night to get my copy. For security reasons, wouldn't it be easier for publishers to hold shipping copies of their games until the release day?

it usually depends on when the game goes gold. Vice City also wasn't nearly as big of a release as this, so they didn't have to print as many copies, so they didn't need as big of a lead time.

[Bahimiron]

I just thought of something, MS doesn't care much about spending money and improving security simply because they don't lose any profit from people pirating games, they makes money from Xbox live subscription/console sales/digital download.

Your location says Santa Monica yet your logic says Mars.

[John Sansker]

Pirates can also get games from playtesters and reviewers (prerelease leaked games are often a pre-Gold version and often buggy because of it).

And I don't blame microsoft for "making their console so easy to hack". Thats like blaming theft on the store because it didn't have a good enough lock on the door. Responsibility still falls squarely on the shoulders of the pirates (may they all burn in hell).

Exactly.
This is what happened with Assassin's Creed.


Back to the OP of this thread, it occurs to me that the writer of the Variety piece played it safe and low-balled the estimate of how well this title is going to sell.
X360+PS3 and it's only going to sell about 20% better than Halo 3?
I'd predict more like 7-8 million on day one, hitting 10-12 within the first 60.

[Kael]

If you are playing an major MMO, and suddenly someone discover a cheat/dupe/exploit in the game that upset the entire game balance, and the cheat/dupe/exploit was never addressed at all, guess who's fault it is.

The developers for not catching the bug (though I promise you all software has bugs) and the players who use the exploit for taking advantage of it (all MMO's that I have seen have rules against this). But there is a huge scale between what one person calls a exploit and what someone else does so often is a gray area (sometimes its pretty blatant).

Regardless there is a huge difference between someone on the low point of the exploit scale (lets say they notice a monster is dropping way to to much loot so they start farming it), and pirates who are not only breaking the rules of the game but federal law. The fact that the game may have horrible copy protection doesnt "entitle" any of the illegal behavior.

I rather have the pirates play a game halfway through and got their save game deleted/corrupt or progression break than having them playing a fully functional playable build.

Yeha, Im glad that they have buggy versions too. And sad when they post on forums about how buggy the game is when they are playing a pirated copy. And especially sad when legitamate players dont buy the game because they hear these reports, or developers waste their time trying to help pirates that didnt bother to pay for the game in the first place. But I think we would both agree that the ideal is that no one would pirate in the first place.

Back to the OP of this thread, it occurs to me that the writer of the Variety piece played it safe and low-balled the estimate of how well this title is going to sell.

X360+PS3 and it's only going to sell about 20% better than Halo 3?

I'd predict more like 7-8 million on day one, hitting 10-12 within the first 60.

8 million is a huge amount in one day. Truely massive numbers. GTA4 looks to be an incredable game on one of gamings most successful franchises but I cant believe it can pull that number in one day. Unlike Halo it won't have a strong multiplayer community waiting for release, that community will build quickly. But their aren't entire guilds/teams expecting all the members to get their copies right away. Because of that I think it will do 4-6 million in the first day. Maybe ending with 8-10 million in the first month.

Halo3 sold a little under 5 million units last year in total. To expect nearly double that in a single day seems high (but more power to them if they can pull it off).

Sadly I think the pirated copy is going to massivly effect sales.

[theKevin]

Sadly I think the pirated copy is going to massivly effect sales.

Massively? This isn't Crysis. To play the pirated copy, you need a hacked Xbox 360 and/or PS3, and (at least Microsoft) is pretty strict on hacked console, with the recent gamer score zeroing, and what not.

[Kael]

Massively? This isn't Crysis. To play the pirated copy, you need a hacked Xbox 360 and/or PS3, and (at least Microsoft) is pretty strict on hacked console, with the recent gamer score zeroing, and what not.

Thats true, I may be to used to the PC market. Hopefully its small potadoes.

[idrisz]

Your location says Santa Monica yet your logic says Mars.

alright! Question, tell me why MS only ban the console but not the user account??

Isn't it kind of weird that all the pirate had to do in order to play on xbox live again is buy another 360. wouldn't it make more sense to ban the console + account that the game was played on if they found someone using a burned disc?

Please don't tell me that Microsoft lose money on every console they sell because it may be the case when 360 was released, but currently they are making money per console sold.

Unless I'm missing something, Microsoft doesn't make money off third party developer sales other than the money developer paid to get a game approve on 360.

[DennyA]

Unless I'm missing something, Microsoft doesn't make money off third party developer sales other than the money developer paid to get a game approve on 360.
You're missing something big-time. All console manufacturers get a royalty from every disc sold for their platform.

[rjcc]

alright! Question, tell me why MS only ban the console but not the user account??

Isn't it kind of weird that all the pirate had to do in order to play on xbox live again is buy another 360. wouldn't it make more sense to ban the console + account that the game was played on if they found someone using a burned disc?

Please don't tell me that Microsoft lose money on every console they sell because it may be the case when 360 was released, but currently they are making money per console sold.

Unless I'm missing something, Microsoft doesn't make money off third party developer sales other than the money developer paid to get a game approve on 360.

*blink*

[intruder]

I just thought of something, MS doesn't care much about spending money and improving security simply because they don't lose any profit from people pirating games, they makes money from Xbox live subscription/console sales/digital download.


Yeah guess Nintendo and Sony had to follow suit making the DS and PSP piss-easy to hack, too so every 5 year old can do it. Damn you Microsoft!
That really makes sense (on Mars I guess)!

[Gary Whitta]

How did this thread go to shit so fast?

[Brakara]

Sadly I think the pirated copy is going to massivly effect sales.

Not more than any other 360 game (as in the ratio of legal copies vs. pirated ones).

How did this thread go to shit so fast?

Developer from Treyarch blames Microsoft for Piracy. You'd think he worked for the Russian Government (http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Russian-Government-Blames-Microsoft-for-Piracy-47500.shtml)...

[rjcc]

Not more than any other 360 game (as in the ratio of legal copies vs. pirated ones).



Developer from Treyarch blames Microsoft for Piracy. You'd think he worked for the Russian Government (http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Russian-Government-Blames-Microsoft-for-Piracy-47500.shtml)...

and really, that explains a LOT of things about CoD3

[bago]

I'm sure the team of engineers who did security on the 360 are happy to see that gates was secretly undercutting them and making it easy for people to hack so they could get higher attach rates through pirating...

AKA, WTF?

[bago]

Seriously, you sell the console at a 100 dollar loss assuming the 20$ liscensing fee + 5 + attach rate will net you profit and your strategy is to pirate games, you gut your profit channel? Seriously, what have you been smoking?

[Bahimiron]

How did this thread go to shit so fast?

Oh, Internet!

[Fugitive]

alright! Question, tell me why MS only ban the console but not the user account??
Though I certainly don't speak for MS, I suspect that banning accounts would open up thorny legal issues about things like the ownership and accessibility of purchased content tied to that account, and they'd prefer to avoid that potential mess. Banning the console from XBL is a much simpler termination of a service agreement, in comparison.

[Shadarr]

Well, that and the fact that it's trivially easy and basically free to register a new user account. Banning the system imposes a fine on the offender and also has a direct effect on the infraction committed, namely modding a system. A modded system gets banned and you can't use that system anymore. If they banned user accounts there would be issues about who was responsible for modding the system.

[idrisz]

Well, that and the fact that it's trivially easy and basically free to register a new user account. Banning the system imposes a fine on the offender and also has a direct effect on the infraction committed, namely modding a system. A modded system gets banned and you can't use that system anymore. If they banned user accounts there would be issues about who was responsible for modding the system.


a modded system get banned that mean you can't use xbox live anymore, but you can still play pirated game on it. Sure, making making a new user account is easy but the pirate have to resubscribes to Xbox live, loss of achievement, DLC.

[RobotPants]

I'm not sure I get your point.

[Hudson]

Wait, idrisz works for a developer that made a 360 game?

[idrisz]

Wait, idrisz works for a developer that made a 360 game?

yes I'm new. want to see my name tag?

P.S

I was wrong about MS not making money per game, apparently they make around $2 per game sold but still doesn't show any proof that they are improving their security on 360.

I just think they should be cracking down harder on pirates instead just give them a slap on the hand.

[Hudson]

It's just weird that you don't seem to know very much about Microsoft's business structure. I guess it's not vital to do whatever it is you do, but in this thread you're coming off like a crazy person. The ease of modding was considered a major flaw in the first Xbox, Microsoft tried really hard to fix that problem this time around.

[idrisz]

It's just weird that you don't seem to know very much about Microsoft's business structure. I guess it's not vital to do whatever it is you do, but in this thread you're coming off like a crazy person. The ease of modding was considered a major flaw in the first Xbox, Microsoft tried really hard to fix that problem this time around.

I'm not in the business aspect of the game industry. Just working on scripting/design. I just don't believe they improved much from xbox to xbox 360.

[Hudson]

Not sure what I'm supposed to say to that.

Not only are you wrong about the actual facts(Xbox modding>>>360 modding), your proposed solution(banning the account and the machine) isn't going to fix the problem. People who are hypothetically undeterred by paying $350+modding cost to get a replacement machine aren't going to balk at modding once it's revealed that Microsoft will also take away all their achievements.

Most modded 360s presumably never even see Xbox Live as people are content to sacrifice online play in exchange for free single player games.

[idrisz]

Not sure what I'm supposed to say to that.

Not only are you wrong about the actual facts(Xbox modding>>>360 modding), your proposed solution(banning the account and the machine) isn't going to fix the problem. People who are hypothetically undeterred by paying $350+modding cost to get a replacement machine aren't going to balk at modding once it's revealed that Microsoft will also take away all their achievements.

Most modded 360s presumably never even see Xbox Live as people are content to sacrifice online play in exchange for free single player games.

with stealth patching most pirates happily play their burn games next to xbox live players, also how often does MS ban someone.

anyways, I'm going home, have a nice weekend.

[bago]

So, I'm seeing this as
A: You gimp your system by cutting out live so you can pirate, or
B: you pay microsoft more money once you are caught pirating and trying to get the full xbox experience.

And if you come back with the argument that it's a Pyrrhic victory due to cost subsidization of the box itself can I plainly point out you are going to lose a war of attrition against a company with 15 billion of cash on hand.

[DennyA]

...against a company with 15 billion of cash on hand.
Well, unless the Yahoo deal goes through. :)

[John Sansker]

8 million is a huge amount in one day. Truely massive numbers. GTA4 looks to be an incredable game on one of gamings most successful franchises but I cant believe it can pull that number in one day. Unlike Halo it won't have a strong multiplayer community waiting for release, that community will build quickly. But their aren't entire guilds/teams expecting all the members to get their copies right away. Because of that I think it will do 4-6 million in the first day. Maybe ending with 8-10 million in the first month.

Halo3 sold a little under 5 million units last year in total. To expect nearly double that in a single day seems high (but more power to them if they can pull it off).

Sadly I think the pirated copy is going to massivly effect sales.


I'm just guessing here, pure speculation, nothing else.
But, my guesses are based on the fact that GTA is a bigger franchise than HALO.
( the article in Edge issue 187 says that GTA has sold 65 million copies worldwide in its various forms)
The Variety article Gary linked/quoted from says that Halo 3 grossed about 300 million and sold 5 million copies?(at launch it seems to be implying??)
Anyway, this is a cross-platform game, which is one reason I'd expect it to do better than a single system launch. (hopefully proving that trying to use "exclusive" software titles to boost hardware sales is a really really dumb fucking idea.)

Now I think you are a bit off base about the multiplayer because it is something that people have been wanting/speculating about since Vice City, so I'd expect a lot of people to get it to see what the mutiplayer is/has to offer.

No PC version so it don't really matter anyway. :(

[RobotPants]

It's weird to me that anyone would think piracy "massively" affects console game sales in 2008.

[Kael]

It's weird to me that anyone would think piracy "massively" affects console game sales in 2008.

theKevin mentioned the same thing back after my original post and I retracted the statement, agreeing that I was thinking of it from a PC market perspective.

[Matt Nahman]

That number is just rediculous. Let's assume that there are 25-30 million 360s and ps3s sold right now. The game needs to sell lets say 6.5 million copies (collector's edition costs more) You mean to tell me that 1 in 4 people are going to buy GTA 4 on launch? Thats even ignoring the fact that many people own both and will most likely not get the game on both consoles. I just don't see it happening, no matter how big the game is. Also don't forget that the Halo games are limited to the xbox and 360 (and PC lol) which never attained the market penetration that Sony did, so to compare unit sales between the franchises isn't very fair. I don't think that GTA will have a higher attach rate than Halo3.
I might eat crow come Wednesday but that figure is just too high. Is GTA anywhere near the level of success in Japan and Europe that it is here?
EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't beat San Andreas sales figure. The PS2 had sold what? 50 million units around the time SA came out*
*pulled that figure out of my ass.

[Demon G Sides]

Epic; you are completely wrong. You don't expect a Multiplatform game to sell more than a single platform game, that isn't as widely loved? Are you an idiot? And the 360 has some good market penetration. Not PS2 good, but its not doing that bad.

And GTA is loved in both Europe and Japan, so, there we go.

[MyNameIsWill]

It's possible. A little under 1 in 2 (3.3/6.8, 48%) U.S. Xbox 360 owners bought Halo 3 in September and 4.8/9.1 (52%) bought it by the end of the year.

With around 14M 360s and PS3s in North America alone, 6 million copies isn't out of the question, especially whn you consider that there's about an equal number of consoles in Europe. If Halo 3 can pull in half of the installed base in one month, and Smash Bros can pull in a third of the US installed base in one month, I don't see why GTA IV couldn't pull in a quarter.

[Matt Nahman]

Epic; you are completely wrong. You don't expect a Multiplatform game to sell more than a single platform game, that isn't as widely loved? Are you an idiot? And the 360 has some good market penetration. Not PS2 good, but its not doing that bad.

And GTA is loved in both Europe and Japan, so, there we go.
I never said it wouldn't sell more, it probably will, I just don't think it will sell 6+million units. With that said, I might be underestimating it because I am looking at something like San Andreas sales compared to ps2s in the market at the time, which I suppose isn't very fair because the ps2 was much more mass market than both the 360 and ps3. I probably went too far saying it wouldnt sell more than San Andreas, but I just don't see it making 400 million opening day, I'm sorry.
Also don't forget that there are a lot of college students entering finals crunch who won't want to buy it until afterwards. I know I had to wrestle with the idea of holding off for two weeks, but eventually cave and pre-ordered.

[Bahimiron]

The AP is predicting 9 million copies to sell tomorrow. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i4dNTce51jZ5W05xrhiEiWVTuqcgD90AT1GG1)

[MyNameIsWill]

That would be mind-blowing but somehow seems feasible, if you include Europe.

[Fozzle]

If they get their 9 million, They'll beat the highest ranked theatrical world release(Spider Man 3) first week by a good $100 million dollars..

Who else has purchased a new video game in plastic bag packaging in their lifetime, and finds this statement exceedingly fulfilling?!?

[Shadarr]

Plus, I bet there will be a big bump in console sales as GTA fanbois finally pick up a next get system. It's not inconceivable that there could be a million copies sold to people who previously didn't own a PS3 or 360 and therefor wouldn't count in the fraction of installbase calculations.

[LesJarvis]

Just for comparison's sake, according to this press release (http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=157255) San Andreas, which is the best-selling installment in the series so far, managed to sell ~12 million copies between October 26th, 2004 and March 3rd, 2005, when the release was issued. I can't find data on first week sales for SA that I consider reliable, and while the number 4.5 million seems to crop up in a few places, I'm unwilling to take it at face value without a better source. I also don't know how the PS2 installed base at the time compares to the cumulative 360 and PS3 installed base right now.

At any rate, selling 9 million copies in the first day would be extremely impressive (needless to say.) I'm skeptical that they can sell nearly half of the total sales of the previous game (SA sold 21.5 million on all platforms) to what I'm betting is a smaller installed base in one day, but if there's a game that could do that kind of business, this is certainly it.

[Fozzle]

The AP article says "at launch" not actually on the first day, which they go on to say means the first week of sales if I read it right. So, in that light 9 million indeed seems doable, especially with all these "10s" rolling around.

[LesJarvis]

Ah, sorry, I think I had subconsciously glommed onto bahimiron's "9 million copies to sell tomorrow" language. At any rate it's useful as contextual data.

[Bahimiron]

The AP article says "at launch" not actually on the first day, which they go on to say means the first week of sales if I read it right.

My error. I clearly didn't read it right.

[Matt Nahman]

I am prepared to eat crow when the game does sell 1 gabazillion copies, but I just think the figure is too high. It might be because I personally find the GTA games overrated (they are enjoyable to a point, but I've never actually beaten one) but I just don't see it happening. Also, in my university there seemed to be a lot more buzz in the air before Halo3 released than there is today about GTA4, and this is the GTA bread and butter. If there is a game that has the potential to sell this many units its GTA 4, but when less than 30 million systems are out there worldwide it is a pretty tall order.

[Matt Nahman]

I take back everything I said, I'm in line to pickup my preorder and its out the door of a not very well known store
EDIT: it is now at least a hundred people deep...I so stand corrected

[rjcc]

LOL. damn

[MyNameIsWill]

Wow..

[rjcc]

there were at least 150 people at the local gamestop (there are three other gamestops within about an 8 mile radius, oplus several 24 hour stores).

and probably about 50~ or so in line at the meijer I went to, with mroe arriving as I left.


insanity

[ChiTownBluesFan]

Well, it's done. I'm sitting here staring at my copy of GTA IV. I went to the Gamestop (the wrong one, as it turned out - they had no record of my $5 deposit, but still had plenty of games) expecting about 50 people. Then I saw the line about about 125-150 people. Thought OK, a few more than I thought, but not too bad.

Then I learned that was the line for the PS/3 buyers. The other side of the doorway (not as easily seen from the parking lot) had about 200-250 people waiting for the 360 version. Plus, there was a line of a dozen people in the store (about 11:45) pre-paying for the game so all they had to do was present the pre-paid receipt and pick the game up. And there were still people showing up as I left about 12:15. It wouldn't suprise me if that location ended up w/ about 500 people all told when the night is over.

And that's one Gamestop location out of a 100+ in the Chicago area, not to mention Best Buy, Wal Mart, Circuit City, etc.

Yea, this game's gonna have a good first week.

[Talorc]

The AP is predicting 9 million copies to sell tomorrow. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i4dNTce51jZ5W05xrhiEiWVTuqcgD90AT1GG1)

In somewhat of a blow to the accuracy of the prediction, it's actually Michael Pachter saying 9 million :-)

"The addressable market at launch is about 24 million consoles," says Michael Pachter, video game analyst at Wedbush Morgan. "So how many will sell in the first week or month or few months? Nine million. That's the number. That's about a 35 percent attach rate. By year's end, it'll be somewhere between 11 and 13 million because more consoles will be sold before the holidays."

I actually think he might be right though. Pretty high stakes stuff for Take 2 though.

[bigdruid]

Geez. Looks like my "swing by Fred Meyer and pick up a copy on the way to work tomorrow" plan might not go as smoothly as I hoped.

OK, time to fall back to plan B: drive around from store to store tomorrow, begging someone to sell me a copy.

All of this could have been avoided if any of the online retailers would just ship games so they *arrive* on the release date. They would *so* have my money.

[Talisker]

Geez. Looks like my "swing by Fred Meyer and pick up a copy on the way to work tomorrow" plan might not go as smoothly as I hoped.
The store I bought mine at had dozens and dozens, and that's in a smaller town with a whopping three people in line -- I'll wager you won't have a problem finding it.

[KieronGillen]

Epicnemesis' two posts upthread are my favourite double-post in ages.

KG

[Funkman]

Epicnemesis' two posts upthread are my favourite double-post in ages.

KG

It was real time ownage. Amazing.

[mono]

Epicnemesis' two posts upthread are my favourite double-post in ages.

KG


He's his own enemy!

[Shadarr]

I went to Future Shop at 12:30 last night. No line, hardly anyone in the store except employees dressed as thugs holding whiffle bats, and lots of copies left (even about 4 CEs on the floor). When I came out I noticed that there was a big line, stretching outside the door of the EB across the parking lot. Who knows how long those people stood in the cold after I got home and plugged it in? I bet they're glad they preordered.

[Skorin]

Wal-Mart was the only local store doing a midnight launch that didn't require you to preorder, so I went there at about 12:15. There were about 150 - 200 people there, and the line just kept steadily getting longer. I was sure I wasn't going to get a copy, but it turned out there were plenty. It was the biggest software launch I've ever seen; Halo 3 had nothing on this.

[BDGE]

I went to Future Shop at 12:30 last night. No line, hardly anyone in the store except employees dressed as thugs holding whiffle bats, and lots of copies left (even about 4 CEs on the floor). When I came out I noticed that there was a big line, stretching outside the door of the EB across the parking lot. Who knows how long those people stood in the cold after I got home and plugged it in? I bet they're glad they preordered.

Yea whats with that? The Gamestop I went to last night had all the employees dressed as thugs and even displaying signs pointing to the register as "Liberty City this way peeps!"

[Fugitive]

There still seems to be plenty of special editions available too, with Future Shop showing them still in stock at all the stores here and a bunch available for online orders. I think I'll pass on this one, though; I've got too damn much clutter around my place already.

[Jab2565]

I finally broke down and placed an order on buy.com. So now I hate the following, X-Play for showing in game footage, here for all the talk about it, and finally Saint's Row for getting me interested in open world games again.

For anyone who hasn't ordered yet, you can get $10 off the special edtion from buy.com if you have a google account.

[Fozzle]

For anyone who hasn't ordered yet, you can get $10 off the special edtion from buy.com if you have a google account.
It's probably been mentioned already, but I also got a 10$ GC at Circuit City for picking it up there. I don't know about normal people's Circuit City, but mine isn't thought of as a hot bed of software purchasing around here, so you can almost always walk in and pick up first day releases without a line, while Best Buy and Gamespot always has a line, or are sold out. Hrmm.. maybe I shouldn't have mentioned this....

[Shadarr]

Yea whats with that? The Gamestop I went to last night had all the employees dressed as thugs and even displaying signs pointing to the register as "Liberty City this way peeps!"
It's the awkward and slightly insulting attempts of an old person trying to appear hip. Except in this case the old people are making their young employees carry out the patronizing display, which makes it just a little more uncomfortable for everyone.

[rjcc]

Yea whats with that? The Gamestop I went to last night had all the employees dressed as thugs and even displaying signs pointing to the register as "Liberty City this way peeps!"

as if I needed more reasons NOT to shop at gamestop

[tromik]

I went to Future Shop at 12:30 last night. No line, hardly anyone in the store except employees dressed as thugs holding whiffle bats, and lots of copies left (even about 4 CEs on the floor). When I came out I noticed that there was a big line, stretching outside the door of the EB across the parking lot. Who knows how long those people stood in the cold after I got home and plugged it in? I bet they're glad they preordered.
Did you get the free hat, too? Damn, all EB had were posters.

[Mark Asher]

Wiffleball bats? They couldn't even trust their employees with real bats? Why didn't they just give them day-glo orange squirt guns?

[tromik]

Wiffleball bats? They couldn't even trust their employees with real bats? Why didn't they just give them day-glo orange squirt guns?
It was freezing last night. I would had killed anyone who squirted me with a water gun. The line/mob would have backed me up.

[Shadarr]

Did you get the free hat, too? Damn, all EB had were posters.
I think I could've, but I didn't want any extra crap.

[tromik]

I think I could've, but I didn't want any extra crap.
Awww, you could have mailed it to me! Any idea what brand it was? I might just buy one if it's a Flexfit.

[Omniscia]

Well, I went to Best Buy to pick up my preorder this afternoon, and they had plenty of copies on the floor, including at least half a dozen of the 360 special editions. The cart they pulled my copy from had at least 40-50 regular copies, and another half-dozen or so special editions.

I guess I didn't need to preorder, after all. It's not like I need or want the poster or the gamer pics.

[Shadarr]

Awww, you could have mailed it to me! Any idea what brand it was? I might just buy one if it's a Flexfit.
No, I didn't see them until I was checking out, and they were over on another counter. Sorry!

[Bahimiron]

Well, on a purely anecdotal front, I can honestly say I've never seen such uniformity in my friends list. Even when Halo was released.

[BDGE]

Well, on a purely anecdotal front, I can honestly say I've never seen such uniformity in my friends list. Even when Halo was released.

Too true. I was shocked that so many friends on my list were playing GTA4 at 3am last night, I'm sure we all had work in a few hours...and I was one of them.

One guy was playing Phantasy Star Universe though, a bit humorous really.

[WarrenM]

One guy was playing Phantasy Star Universe though, a bit humorous really.
At least now you know who to put up against the wall first when culling time comes.

[Fugitive]

I swung by an HMV near here over lunch, but they were already sold out. I shall have to console myself with long, sobbing rounds of Mario Kart Wii tonight instead.

I'm actually tempted to hold off on it for a bit and work straight through the whole GTA3/VC/SA/GTA4 series in one big sequence, since they were still on my to-finish list anyway.

[MarchHare]

HMV on Stephen Ave? I also went there over lunch and met the same fate as you. :(

One of my coworkers found a PS3 copy at The Source in TD Square, but it was the last one in the store (for either system). Sadly, I think I'm going to have to make an excursion out to big box store country after work to find a copy. :(

[Ephraim]

Don't you guys have Best Buys and/or Future Shops in Calgary?

The one here in Montreal that I frequent, not even the biggest one downtown, had tons of copies left when I wandered in around one in the afternoon. For both PS3 and X360, though the X360 displays were more prominent.

[Shadarr]

Too true. I was shocked that so many friends on my list were playing GTA4 at 3am last night, I'm sure we all had work in a few hours...and I was one of them.
What annoys me is the four people on my friends list who are playing it right now, while I'm at work.

[MarchHare]

Don't you guys have Best Buys and/or Future Shops in Calgary?


Yeah, but none downtown. The HMV on 8th Ave SW is pretty much the only place within walking distance of my office that sells games. If I want to go to Best Buy or Future Shop, I need to get in my car and drive for 15 minutes (or much longer during rush hour traffic).

[Matt Nahman]

He's his own enemy!
Hey at least I can admit it when I'm wrong, I get points for that right?

[Matt Nahman]

Are there any opening day sales numbers yet? I want to know if my original statement held true.

[Kevin Grey]

Are there any opening day sales numbers yet? I want to know if my original statement held true.

Only thing I've seen was something about it setting records in the UK. The lack of a "biggest single day in entertainment history" PR leads me to believe that it might not have topped Halo 3 opening day.

[checker]

Are there any opening day sales numbers yet? I want to know if my original statement held true.

<vgchartz disclaimers=extreme>
http://vgchartz.com/news/news.php?id=1102
</vgchartz>

If these numbers are true (2.4m+1.7m), then they were way off the hyped 9m units on the first day, but vgchartz is kinda questionable at best, so we'll probably have to wait for an announcment.

I don't know why some news coverage was saying they didn't spend on marketing like Halo 3 did...every bus in Oakland has a GTA4 sign on the side of it. I wonder how the real marketing spend compared.

Chris

[edit: I realized after I posted that I wasn't sure if the 9 million was hyped for first day or first week or what, and so I fact checked my own ass and it looks like the Pachter quote was, "So how many will sell in the first week or month or few months? Nine million. That's the number." so forget the first day comment above.]

[Matt Nahman]

As a marketing major I really want that to be right because that would be close to what I thought it would sell (I had 3.5 to 4.5 million copies in my head).
I'm not a fanboy or anything but I love checking out sales figure and making my own predictions, I guess you could call it my guilty pleasure.

[Post-It]

For what it's worth, I saw a ton of advertising for Halo 3 on the tv, but have only seen a couple GTA4 ads. I don't watch that much tv though.

[Matt Nahman]

For what it's worth, I saw a ton of advertising for Halo 3 on the tv, but have only seen a couple GTA4 ads. I don't watch that much tv though.
Its the opposite for me, I've seen a lot more tv space go to gta 4, and also a lot of billboards, but there were a lot more promotions and co branding involved with halo3 (gamefuel)

[Jazar]

$400 million? Try >$500 million:

Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. (NASDAQ: TTWO), said today that Grand Theft Auto IV has surpassed all-time entertainment records for day one and week one sales by dollar value. Released on Tuesday, April 29th, Grand Theft Auto IV, the critically acclaimed video game, has sold through to consumers approximately 6 million units globally with an estimated retail value of more than $500 million in the first week. Grand Theft Auto IV sold approximately 3.6 million units on its opening day with a retail value of approximately $310 million globally.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=308689

[Talisker]

If it was selling for $60 in the US, people in other countries must be getting screwed for the average price to be over $83.

[KieronGillen]

50 quid RRP in the UK. 100 dollars.

KG

[Jazar]

If it was selling for $60 in the US, people in other countries must be getting screwed for the average price to be over $83.

Keep in mind that there is also a super expensive special edition.

[Talorc]

$119.95 Australian dollars - $113 US dollars.

Your currency sucks people. Try selling shit loads of Iron Ore to China, instead of buying their Plasma TV's, to help it along a bit :-). I suppose it does increase your export earnings, as in the case of GTA IV :-)

[Hanzii]

I paid Burnout: Revenge, DOA4 and Forza 2 for mine and still had some spare change.

But otherwise it's just over $100 here.

[Talorc]

So if it is generally around the $US 100 mark internationally and $US 60 domestically, an average price of around $83 sounds about right.

(assuming an approx 50/50 mix of international / domestic sales, and not trying to account for tricky stuff, like expensive collectors editions)

[Talisker]

Keep in mind that there is also a super expensive special edition.
Yeah, but that probably wasn't that high a percentage of sales -- the store I bought it at had four special editions, but dozens and dozens of regular copies.

Looks like the bulk of the difference was made up by shafting the rest of the world. Sorry, guys, thanks for subsidizing my game purchases though.

[TurinTuramba]

They probably could have made even more if it wasn´t sold out everywhere around me. And yes that´s with a price of 65€ (100$).