Cleve Blakemore - from people who know

[Met_K]

From: People Who Know Cleve Blakemore ([email protected])
Subject: Cleve Blakemore - from people who know
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg
Date: 1997/09/30


Greetings All,

We are a group of programmers who worked with Cleve recently. I guess we
must be the mediocre types who are "mentally ill". As you may have guessed
we never post to this news group, and we would not post to this news group
unless we had an overwhelming reason to do so.

The reason, as it turns out, is Cleve Blakemore. One of the guys here
reads this news group and today he printed out a collection of Cleve's
"wisdom". We were especially amused by his self description ( 17' arm, 28'
leg, and 49' chest indeed ). Needless to say none of us were particularily
impressed with Cleve's physical prowess ... but enough macho bullshit, only
kids who have not grown up talk about their ability to beat up people. Its
hardly a trait to be proud of. ( Maybe Cleve will disagree. )

In any case to get down to it, the only superhuman thing about Cleve is
his ego. We found our mediocre abilities to be more than match for his
coding wizardry. That is not to say Cleve is a bad guy. In fact, we found he
was ok when he worked here, perhaps a bit slow to catch on to things we were
doing but overall he was hardly the "legend in his own mind" type. Funny how
newsgroups change people.

Cleve buddy, get some sleep. Relax. If your game is as good as you say
we will all buy it and play and think ... thanks Cleve you've done a good
job. As it is, all these posts about your fabulous abilities, superhuman
intellect and physical prowess make you sound like a wanker. I am sure many
people who read this newsgroup already know this.

To the rest of you, just ignore him. Bandwith is far too scarce as it is
without all his drivel.

Sincerely,



The people who know Cleve (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=60q8tu%248c8%241%40news.mel.aone.net.au&rnum=119&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dauthor:cleve%2Bauthor:blakemore%26num %3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26start%3D100%26sa%3DN)

PS. We appologise to those who have no part in this "debate". This will be
our only post on this matter.

[Cleve Blakemore]

These were some incredible gayboys who worked at Wright Technology, now defunct of course. They were paying $70.00 an hour and I hated the place so badly after two weeks I made a special request to my agent to ask them if I could get out of the contract early, I did not want to finish out the entire three months.

Whenever I tried to ask them technical questions about the source code, they usually told me to come back later because they were occupied cruising gay porno sites. These dudes were like caricatures of gays, so high strung and effem they practically twinkled when they walked. They were so ugly to me and so unpleasant to work with I told my agent I just could not go another month, I had to get out early.

EDIT : My agent told me after I gave notice that I had actually substantially outlasted the previous guy, who had been unable to work there for longer than one month. She said she was considering no longer even placing people at Wright because of the environment there. I think they folded back in 98, no shock really.

[Captain Cookiepants]

I note that Cleve does not deny their account of him, and really, wouldn't gay men be the ones to watch another man closely? Why is it that every single person outside the Klan gets the same impression of Cleve?

In fact let's have a little testament to the almighty power of Cleve's intelligence:

1. Muskets were basically hand cannons that fired a lead ball almost the size of a baseball and were accurate at thirty meters. Sometimes one of these balls caused a person to just disappear in a cloud of bloody vapour and chunks of meat when they hit. They were about ten times as powerful as any legal weapon permitted in the U.S. today. If you were lucky, a musket ball only took off your leg below the kneecap or else an arm. The popular mythology of the "harmless" musket is a recently invented fiction of the leftwing press.
Also: I'm a big fat ass of impossible proportions. Looks like you'll have to fall back to calling me gay too Cleve. And you know what they say about men that think everyone around them is gay...

[Cleve Blakemore]

I note that Cleve does not deny their account of him, and really, wouldn't gay men be the ones to watch another man closely? Why is it that every single person outside the Klan gets the same impression of Cleve?

In fact let's have a little testament to the almighty power of Cleve's intelligence:

1. Muskets were basically hand cannons that fired a lead ball almost the size of a baseball and were accurate at thirty meters. Sometimes one of these balls caused a person to just disappear in a cloud of bloody vapour and chunks of meat when they hit. They were about ten times as powerful as any legal weapon permitted in the U.S. today. If you were lucky, a musket ball only took off your leg below the kneecap or else an arm. The popular mythology of the "harmless" musket is a recently invented fiction of the leftwing press.
Also: I'm a big fat ass of impossible proportions. Looks like you'll have to fall back to calling me gay too Cleve. And you know what they say about men that think everyone around them is gay...

Well, I don't think I was projecting onto the lads at Wright Technology. The lead programmer wore lipstick and hair gel, did his eyes with mascara and had his ears and tongue pierced. He usually worse fishnet singlets and skintight silk pants. If you asked him if he knew what time it was, he usually pursed his lips like he had swallowed a lemon and shot back "What time do you think it is?!? Tsk! It's time for you to get a watch, pal, that's what time it is!! Away from me, big boy!" (waved delicate slender bony hand in a flicking motion at me)

At that time I was only about 50% as strong as I am now, roughly four times as strong as an ordinary person. That means that I could have snatched him by his throat and physically thrown him upwards into the ceiling through the plasterboard where he would stick like a dart, then snap his head off by grabbing his knees and twisting him with a sharp motion.

Instead, I'd say, "Ooooooohkay, John, I'll just go back to my cubicle. Sorry for asking you about the time."

If I saw either the senior programmer at Wright or his second-in-command on the street today, I would actually strike them hard enough to cause their skeleton to exit their body temporarily leaving their bag of skin hovering in midair for a moment before it fell to the ground in a heap. "Hey, tell me what time it is now!" I'd say to the quivering bag of skin with two eyes like limpid eggs in yolk on the sidewalk in the last remaining seconds of consciousness before 'it' died. That's the Frank Capra ending, the upbeat scenario mind you.

[wumpus]

Hilarious.

[Tyjenks]

So he has been doing the self promotional internet tour and book signing for Grimoire since 1997? Maybe it will be a masterpiece. Lord knows MoO3 could have used another 5 years in the hopper.

[Cleve Blakemore]

Check out these measurements in 1997:

( 17' arm, 28'
leg, and 49' chest indeed )

I thought I was friggin' huge back then because I was nearly twice as big as an ordinary person! Compare with today:

(19 1/4 arm flexed (varies to 18 3/4 some days), 33 inch leg (that still doesn't explain how I hack squat 1400 lbs for 9 reps) and 52 inch chest!)

Something important to point out is that I have some kind of incredible protective camouflage - I am so well proportioned it is never quite obvious how gigantic I am until you see me in shorts and a shirt, then it suddenly hits you I am like one of those funhouse corridors with trick perspective. It is only when you put an ordinary man directly beside me that it strikes you that everything, including my brain case, is much larger than that of an ordinary person's. For example, people often get the sensation my head is a tiny tangerine sitting on this colossal body. If you put my head beside somebody elses, you can see the diameter of my skull is more like the size of a watermelon. I can't explain it, it's just a great mystery to me.

The only other bodybuilders I ever heard of who cast this kind of illusion were Tom Platz and Mike Mentzner. Arnold Schwarzenegger used to swear that Mike wasn't that big a guy ... in fact he was about twice the size of Arnold and about six times as strong. Tom Platz never seemed to have legs that big with pants on. When he took the pants off, you could suddenly see that Tom's leg was around twice the size of most bodybuilders. Platz was also even stronger than I am in most leg exercises, of course he took a lot of roids.

[bmulligan]

I'm not a Cleve fan, nor a Cleve hater, but I must say I don't think this type of thread is appropriate. Digging up comments not from this board by past associates amounts to hearsay as we have no way of determining their validity, nor would we need to.

Why don't you just start an 'I hate Cleve because he hurts my feelings' thread so all you playground boys can get together, have a good cry, and pretend to kick virtual sand in his face. When you feel better, you can comeback and join the rest of the class. And make sure you brought gum for everyone!

[Jason McCullough]

You're forgetting that:

a) Cleve is an untermensch.
b) It's funny.

[bmulligan]

McCullough, this may be the one time that I change my opinion and agree with you.

[chet]

Cleve, masturbating to your own reflection in the mirror, does technically make you gay.

[ydejin]

I'm not a Cleve fan, nor a Cleve hater, but I must say I don't think this type of thread is appropriate. Digging up comments not from this board by past associates amounts to hearsay as we have no way of determining their validity, nor would we need to.


bmulligan, on the one hand, I completely agree with you. Digging up other people's comments from outside the board to directly attack people here is not appropriate. On the other hand, Cleve has been responsible for many far, far more inappropriate posts to this board.

How does the inappropriateness of this post in any way compare with that of the hate-filled comments that Cleve has posted about blacks? While Gary Whitta, Jeff Green, and others were suggesting that Cleve's racist posts were inappropriate, I didn't notice you supporting them (if you did and I didn't notice, my apologies).

[Tyjenks]

b) It's funny.

I would say until the character attack threads outnumber the Kleve* spam, we are all in the clear.

*I hereby dub our impostor Kleve as it is pretty clear it ain't him. I mean, how many times has he boasted about his game. Zero that I can find. The troll must be given due respect for his sticktuitiveness, but it is neither insightful or inciteful any longer. Just very, very tiresome. I imagine, with the increased new topics started here in Kleve's Korner, he/she/it is beginning the week with plans to go out with a bang. That may or may not include full nude pictures he and Falcon did together a few years back.

[MikeJ]

33 inch leg (that still doesn't explain how I hack squat 1400 lbs for 9 reps)

Hey, pretty soon you won't need the hydraulics for the vault door!

[bmulligan]

How does the inappropriateness of this post in any way compare with that of the hate-filled comments that Cleve has posted about blacks? While Gary Whitta, Jeff Green, and others were suggesting that Cleve's racist posts were inappropriate, I didn't notice you supporting them (if you did and I didn't notice, my apologies).

Well, I don't consider myself the judge of whether or not someone can express their own opinions. Or maybe I've just dealt with opinions of his type for so long I can tolerate them and confront them head on. Regardless, forums are a place for debate and exchange of ideas and arguments, not to taint someone's reputation based on past, secondhand knowledge.

Digging into someones past is a completely different story. There is no defense for it because it's truth or falsehood cannot be validated. Simply putting it in writing where it really serves no purpose other than to defame is akin to a political strategy: Where a statement is offered up as fact, then repeated ad infinitum, until it is perceived as truth, regardless of what the facts are in the matter.

Yeah it's amusing, I must admit, but inappropriate nevertheless.

[chet]

Oddly, his game website has been down for the past couple of days. At least for me. Pretty much ever since it was pulled up here to mock him. Maybe it is just flooded with everyone downloading his great game? Seems fishy.

So far, it is looking like Derek Smart is superior to Cleve in many, many ways. How many games has Derek gotten out? How many has Cleve?


Chet

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

Where a statement is offered up as fact, then repeated ad infinitum, until it is perceived as truth, regardless of what the facts are in the matter.

Yeah it's amusing, I must admit, but inappropriate nevertheless.
Well, that sounds like the typical "debate" around here of late, or like debate on the 'net in general.

[Tyjenks]

Cleve, masturbating to your own reflection in the mirror, does technically make you gay.

crap.

[ydejin]

... There is no defense for it because it's truth or falsehood cannot be validated. Simply putting it in writing where it really serves no purpose other than to defame is akin to a political strategy: Where a statement is offered up as fact, then repeated ad infinitum, until it is perceived as truth, regardless of what the facts are in the matter.

Yes, but this is very similar to how racism works. Statements about African Americans (or others) are offered up as fact and then repeated ad infinitum. If a population has little or no contact with the target of the racist comments, segments of the population begin to believe that the statements are indeed facts.

I don't want repeat any of Cleve or hermy's racist comments, but they pretty much amounted to broad statements about Africans and African Americans repeated ad nauseam. When confronted by other members of Qt3, they simply stated that we lacked sufficient experience with African Americans and that their comments in fact were "truth".

Cleve and hermy's strategy was very similar to the one you have described in your post.

[bmulligan]

Yes, but they weren't personal. He didn't, for example, research your family history and find out your mother was half black and then say you were a monkey boy because of it. Or dig up dirt on somone and display it for the entire forum to read. No, he immasculated most by their own comments of the day, not what has been said about them 5 years ago.

[wumpus]

Cleve is tiresome. His antics bore me. I really wish he'd come up with some new shtick. But hey, it seems to amuse a few of you, for whatever reason. What next, knock knock jokes? OMFG THE HILARITY!

[Mark Asher]

Cleve is tiresome. His antics bore me. I really wish he'd come up with some new shtick. But hey, it seems to amuse a few of you, for whatever reason. What next, knock knock jokes? OMFG THE HILARITY!

While I don't agree with his racist ideas or doomsday politics, he can be quite funny at times -- I can always look at a piece of writing as a piece of writing and enjoy it for being well written, politics aside.

Anyway, whenever you post about how you don't like Cleve, you're giving him the attention he enjoys. Why not just ignore threads like this?

[Met_K]

Why didn't you just ignore him on usenet, Mark?

[Ignatius P. Reilly]

While I don't agree with his racist ideas or doomsday politics, he can be quite funny at times -- I can always look at a piece of writing as a piece of writing and enjoy it for being well written, politics aside.

Today it seems to me providential that Fate should have chosen Braunau on the Inn as my birthplace. For this little town lies on the boundary between two German states which we of the younger generation at least have made it our life work to reunite by every means at our disposal.

German-Austria must return to the great German mother country, and not because of any economic considerations. No, and again no: even if such a union were unimportant from an economic point of view; yes, even if it were harmful, it must nevertheless take place. One blood demands one Reich. Never will the German nation possess the moral right to engage in colonial politics until, at least, it embraces its own sons within a single state. Only when the Reich borders include the very last German, but can no longer guarantee his daily bread, will the moral right to acquire foreign soil arise from the distress of our own people. Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow. And so this little city on the border seems to me the symbol of a great mission. And in another respect as well, it looms as an admonition to the present day. More than a hundred years ago, this insignificant place had the distinction of being immortalized in the annals at least of German history, for it was the scene of a tragic catastrophe which gripped the entire German nation. At the time of our fatherland's deepest humiliation, Johannes Palm of Nuremberg, burgher, bookseller, uncompromising nationalist and French hater, died there for the Germany which he loved so passionately even in her misfortune. He had stubbornly refused to denounce his accomplices who were in fact his superiors. In thus he resembled Leo Schlageter. And like him, he was denounced to the French by a representative of his government An Augsburg police chief won this unenviable fame, thus furnishing an example for our modern German officials in Herr Severing's Reich.

In this little town on the Inn, gilded by the rays of German martyrdom, Bavarian by blood, technically Austrian, lived my parents in the late eighties of the past century...

[Mark Asher]

Why didn't you just ignore him on usenet, Mark?

I've learned since then.

But go ahead and keep posting non sequiter anti-Cleve comments in every thread you can find. On second thought, don't.

[Mark Asher]

While I don't agree with his racist ideas or doomsday politics, he can be quite funny at times -- I can always look at a piece of writing as a piece of writing and enjoy it for being well written, politics aside.

Today it seems to me providential that Fate should have chosen Braunau on the Inn as my birthplace. For this little town lies on the boundary between two German states which we of the younger generation at least have made it our life work to reunite by every means at our disposal.

German-Austria must return to the great German mother country, and not because of any economic considerations. No, and again no: even if such a union were unimportant from an economic point of view; yes, even if it were harmful, it must nevertheless take place. One blood demands one Reich. Never will the German nation possess the moral right to engage in colonial politics until, at least, it embraces its own sons within a single state. Only when the Reich borders include the very last German, but can no longer guarantee his daily bread, will the moral right to acquire foreign soil arise from the distress of our own people. Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow. And so this little city on the border seems to me the symbol of a great mission. And in another respect as well, it looms as an admonition to the present day. More than a hundred years ago, this insignificant place had the distinction of being immortalized in the annals at least of German history, for it was the scene of a tragic catastrophe which gripped the entire German nation. At the time of our fatherland's deepest humiliation, Johannes Palm of Nuremberg, burgher, bookseller, uncompromising nationalist and French hater, died there for the Germany which he loved so passionately even in her misfortune. He had stubbornly refused to denounce his accomplices who were in fact his superiors. In thus he resembled Leo Schlageter. And like him, he was denounced to the French by a representative of his government An Augsburg police chief won this unenviable fame, thus furnishing an example for our modern German officials in Herr Severing's Reich.

In this little town on the Inn, gilded by the rays of German martyrdom, Bavarian by blood, technically Austrian, lived my parents in the late eighties of the past century...

I'm guessing this is something Hitler wrote? And since Hitler wrote stuff, and Cleve writes stuff, Cleve is just as likely to grab the reins of power in some nation and lead the world into WWIII?

Oh wait -- if we refuse to allow Cleve to post messages, the world will be saved? This is the subtext of your post? Whew! Glad I decoded it in time! We know how we can save the world now.

Thanks!

[Met_K]

Why didn't you just ignore him on usenet, Mark?

I've learned since then.

But go ahead and keep posting non sequiter anti-Cleve comments in every thread you can find. On second thought, don't.

Seems you haven't.

Okay, I will. On second thought, ban me.

[Cleve Blakemore]

It's a race between Chet, Met_K and Ignatius to see who qualifies as the most demented, disjointed and irrelevant posters to QT3. Next up Ignatius will post a picture of Charles Manson with no text ... "see this guy! YEAH! See what I"M SAYIN??!?!? THE OMINOUS PARALLELS ARE CHILLING!!! Cleve's a guy who lives in Australia - Charlie lived in California, too! Plus, they're both CRAZY, I TELL YA! YEAH!!!! SEE WHAT I'M SAYIN' HERE?!?! HUH?!?!? HUH?!?!? NEXT, I'm GOING TO POST A PICTURE OF GENGHIS KHAN TRANSPARENTLY OVERLAID ON A PHOTO OF CLEVE!!!!! RIGHT? RIGHT?!?!?! EXACTAMUNDO, BABY!!!! YEAH!!! GENGHIS WAS A BIG BUFFED GUY, TOO!!! THE OMINOUS PARALLELS!!!!

[Mark Asher]

Why didn't you just ignore him on usenet, Mark?

I've learned since then.

But go ahead and keep posting non sequiter anti-Cleve comments in every thread you can find. On second thought, don't.

Seems you haven't.

Okay, I will. On second thought, ban me.

Look, I have no desire to ban anyone. Just be a bit more mature and restrain yourself. There's no need to stick anti-anyone posts into a thread on a game in the games forum. Doesn't that make sense, or are you incapable of resisting that? I only noticed because you did it in several different threads.

Blast Cleve all you want in the political threads. Blast Cleve about his failure to deliver Grimoire in a gaming thread. Get it out if you need to get it out. Don't spread your personal vendetta into threads that have nothing to do with Cleve, ok? That's fair, isn't it?

[chet]

I just like it when people mention me in their posts. It is pretty easy to put a nickel in Cleve and get the desired results. He is like some old mechanical bank, put the nickel in and watch the gears slowly flail around trying to stick the nickel in the slot.

I am fascinated by the jerky movement and simple mechanics behind those old mechanical banks and the same can be said for Cleve and what he passes off as wit or logic.

Seems he has a great deal of pent up rage, with the black man making games while fate is holding down his masterpiece or whatever.

Chet
ps. Cleve where is your website?

[Ignatius P. Reilly]

I'm guessing this is something Hitler wrote? And since Hitler wrote stuff, and Cleve writes stuff, Cleve is just as likely to grab the reins of power in some nation and lead the world into WWIII?

Oh wait -- if we refuse to allow Cleve to post messages, the world will be saved? This is the subtext of your post? Whew! Glad I decoded it in time! We know how we can save the world now.

Thanks!

No, actually that isn't the "subtext" at all, Mark. The "subtext" (aptly named, I guess, since it went beneath your fine-tuned literary sensibilities) is that since you are able to enjoy "good writing" regardless of the political content, you should be able to enjoy Mein Kampf even more than you enjoy Cleve's posts, since it is much more beautifully written than Cleve's obscene efforts to mold the English language into something resembling meaning.

It doesn't have anything to do with "Cleve taking over the world"; it doesn't have anything to do with Cleve, really. It has to do with your shockingly amoral statement that you can enjoy good writing regardless of the content.

[Mark Asher]

Haven't read Mein Kampf, but if it is well-written, I could appreciate it for that and still disagree with it. I don't see a conflict here. Should we ban writings we don't agree with? Let's have a book-burning and roast marshmallows!

[Ignatius P. Reilly]

Well, why don't you give it a read, then, Mark. I see you sitting in the park with your copy of Mein Kampf, with a bemused grin on your face while you enjoy the delicate metaphors.

"Are you doing research about neo-nazis?" the Jewish girl asks.

"No, I just enjoy his beautiful use of language," Mark replies, returning with a smile to the beloved book.

Myself, I don't see any need to burn books, because I believe the vast majority of people -- when they can read -- will, unlike you, appreciate the moral deficiency of Hitler's prose.

[Mark Asher]

Well, why don't you give it a read, then, Mark. I see you sitting in the park with your copy of Mein Kampf, with a bemused grin on your face while you enjoy the delicate metaphors.

"Are you doing research about neo-nazis?" the Jewish girl asks.

"No, I just enjoy his beautiful use of language," Mark replies, returning with a smile to the beloved book.

Myself, I don't see any need to burn books, because I believe the vast majority of people -- when they can read -- will, unlike you, appreciate the moral deficiency of Hitler's prose.

I haven't read Mein Kampf because I wasn't interested in reading it. You, however, seemed to appreciate it for its prose:

"...should be able to enjoy Mein Kampf even more than you enjoy Cleve's posts, since it is much more beautifully written than Cleve's obscene efforts to mold the English language into something resembling meaning."

Somehow, you managed to make that value statement, which is just a rephrasing of my stated feeling about finding something to enjoy in a piece of writing based on how well it is written. Nowhere did I say that something that is well-written is by definition morally acceptable. I might enjoy reading the Marquis de Sade and yet resist condoning S&M as something everyone should try.

I'm not defending Hitler, but comparing Cleve to Hitler, or the lack of response of the Qt3 moderators to Cleve to the lack of response of whomever to Hitler many years ago is just nutty. There is no comparison.

[Gary Whitta]

Well, why don't you give it a read, then, Mark. I see you sitting in the park with your copy of Mein Kampf, with a bemused grin on your face while you enjoy the delicate metaphors.

"Are you doing research about neo-nazis?" the Jewish girl asks.

"No, I just enjoy his beautiful use of language," Mark replies, returning with a smile to the beloved book.

Myself, I don't see any need to burn books, because I believe the vast majority of people -- when they can read -- will, unlike you, appreciate the moral deficiency of Hitler's prose.
I think I'd also find it difficult to separate the quality of the prose from the content. I'm sure somebody could write a beautifully worded essay about why, for example, all jews and blacks should be doused in gasoline and burned, filled with eloquent prose and evocative imagery, but my revulsion at what's being advocated would almost certainly negate any appreciation I might otherwise have had for the quality of the writing.

[Ignatius P. Reilly]

I'm not defending Hitler, but comparing Cleve to Hitler, or the lack of response of the Qt3 moderators to Cleve to the lack of response of whomever to Hitler many years ago is just nutty. There is no comparison.

I haven't compared anything to Cleve. As far as I recall I haven't mentioned Cleve in this thread except to ensure you that my comments were largely unrelated to him.

But since you insist on returning to that topic, what Cleve has posted in this forum is, generally speaking, more immediately offensive than anything you'll find in Mein Kampf, his inability to produce results in the real world notwithstanding.

[Mark Asher]

Well, why don't you give it a read, then, Mark. I see you sitting in the park with your copy of Mein Kampf, with a bemused grin on your face while you enjoy the delicate metaphors.

"Are you doing research about neo-nazis?" the Jewish girl asks.

"No, I just enjoy his beautiful use of language," Mark replies, returning with a smile to the beloved book.

Myself, I don't see any need to burn books, because I believe the vast majority of people -- when they can read -- will, unlike you, appreciate the moral deficiency of Hitler's prose.
I think I'd also find it difficult to separate the quality of the prose from the content. I'm sure somebody could write a beautifully worded essay about why, for example, all jews and blacks should be doused in gasoline and burned, filled with eloquent prose and evocative imagery, but my repulsion for what's being advocated would almost certainly negate any appreciation I might have for the quality of the writing.

That's a bit of a strawman example. I doubt the vast majority of us would be able to enjoy something like that, no matter how beautiful the writing.

That said, if someone wants to espouse that, how many times will you continue to read that person's writings? I'd think once would be more than enough. You don't debate people like that. You don't see members of the KKK appearing as guests to debate race issues, unless some show is desparate for ratings. They have been marginalized and ignored because of their views.

[Mark Asher]

I'm not defending Hitler, but comparing Cleve to Hitler, or the lack of response of the Qt3 moderators to Cleve to the lack of response of whomever to Hitler many years ago is just nutty. There is no comparison.

I haven't compared anything to Cleve. As far as I recall I haven't mentioned Cleve in this thread except to ensure you that my comments were largely unrelated to him.

But since you insist on returning to that topic, what Cleve has posted in this forum is, generally speaking, more immediately offensive than anything you'll find in Mein Kampf, his inability to produce results in the real world notwithstanding.

I may have made the mistake in thinking your posts were related to Cleve simply because this is a thread about Cleve.

You have deemed Cleve offensive in this post, at least. I'll go out on a limb and guess that mostly it's Cleve's ideas that are offensive? If I'm mostly right, what do you suggest the moderators do about posters who offend our sensibilities with their ideas?

I'm also curious about why you quoted Mein Kampf? That had nothing to do with Cleve's posts? I'm probably being dense, but I just don't get that. Could you spell it out for me?

[Gary Whitta]

That said, if someone wants to espouse that, how many times will you continue to read that person's writings? I'd think once would be more than enough. You don't debate people like that.
Well apparently on QT3, you do - as evidenced by the Ku Klux Kleve bandwagon continuing to roll merrily along with plenty of posters challenging his views. Not that I'm complaining any longer - I think I've finally attained that particular brand of QT3 enlightenment where you are no longer in any way bothered by Cleve Claven's posts, and merely appreciate them for their undeniable comedic value.

[Mark Asher]

That said, if someone wants to espouse that, how many times will you continue to read that person's writings? I'd think once would be more than enough. You don't debate people like that.
Well apparently on QT3, you do - as evidenced by the Ku Klux Kleve bandwagon continuing to roll merrily along with plenty of posters challenging his views. Not that I'm complaining any longer - I think I've finally attained that particular brand of QT3 enlightenment where you are no longer in any way bothered by Cleve Claven's posts, and merely appreciate them for their undeniable comedic value.

I think it's great and fine when people challenge Cleve's views, or Jason McCullough's views, or anyone else's views. All I hope for is that we keep it contained in the appropriate forum, and people understand that contrary, fringe, and outright kooky views aren't going to result in banning, even if these views are offensive.

[Met_K]

IT'S THE FACT THAT HE IS FUCKING ANNOYING, MARK. THE FACT THAT HE CANNOT POST ON HIS OWN THREADS, MARK.

Jesus fucking Christ! Stupid! Fucking! Idiot!

[ydejin]

That said, if someone wants to espouse that, how many times will you continue to read that person's writings? I'd think once would be more than enough. You don't debate people like that.
Well apparently on QT3, you do - as evidenced by the Ku Klux Kleve bandwagon continuing to roll merrily along with plenty of posters challenging his views. Not that I'm complaining any longer - I think I've finally attained that particular brand of QT3 enlightenment where you are no longer in any way bothered by Cleve Claven's posts, and merely appreciate them for their undeniable comedic value.

I think Cleve has actually toned down quite a bit. Whether this is in response to the crusade you, Jeff Green, and others started or if he simply got tired of posting racist bile, I don't know, but I am thankful. At this point his posts are still present strong viewpoints, but I haven't seen the really nasty hateful comments I saw coming from him a few weeks ago.

As I discovered on the Paging Jason and Tim (http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4315) thread, I actually agree with him on some stuff -- who'd have thunked?

[mtkafka]

Is there a limit to what's offensive? You can say anything in a general sense, be it racism, murder, rape (all contained in Cleve's posts) and still not be banned? Frankly I don't care who does or doesn't get banned, if it gets bad enough I'll just stop coming here. BUT, you know there are limits, imo. I don't know exactly what they would be, but I'm pretty sure some of Cleve's remarks border on bannable on most forums. And you DO know that you are inviting trolls to push that limit. Somebody is going to ocme on this board and spew some vile shit that goes way beyond Cleve's. How long before you hit the ban button?

also to add, I don't think Cleve should be banned. I can kind of get what hes saying. In fact, I think Cleve -deep down!- is a liberal ... haha!

I reckon there will be somebody out there who wants to -test- Mark and Tom's patience. Get ready... the gently touching will come!

etc

[ydejin]

I'll go out on a limb and guess that mostly it's Cleve's ideas that are offensive? If I'm mostly right, what do you suggest the moderators do about posters who offend our sensibilities with their ideas?

I don't think that his ideas are the problem. I think it's the way he presents (or was presenting) them. It's one thing to carry on a discussion on why a particular continent has not done as well as Europe, or even to have a discussion on the genetic differences between races. It's another thing to start comparing specific ethnic groups to monkeys. Unless Cleve really believes that members of certain ethnic groups are closer genetically to monkeys than they are to human beings, he's not really presenting an idea, instead he's purposely being hateful. It's not like his hate-filled posts were really written as a means of advancing his arguments. In fact, it's just the opposite, in several cases his specific wording was so offensive I think most of us turned away from his posts without any attempt to determine what the underlying idea he was trying to present was.

In my mind, hate-filled speech at the level of some of Cleve's posts simply has no place in civilized society. They are posting not to present ideas, but specifically to demean members of an ethnic group. This type of speech may be protected under the first amendment, but that doesn't mean that social groups including Qt3 shouldn't say that people who make those kind of comments are unwelcome here. There is absolutely no reason why an African American coming to this board should have to read the kind of bile that Cleve was posting. I believe, we should stand up and say that we find that kind of language offensive and that while Cleve is more than welcome to continue presenting ideas here, he cannot do so using the kind of offensive, hateful language which he has used in the past.

[Cleve Blakemore]

There is absolutely no reason why an African American coming to this board should have to read the kind of bile that Cleve was posting. I believe, we should stand up and say that we find that kind of language offensive and that while Cleve is more than welcome to continue presenting ideas here, he cannot do so using the kind of offensive, hateful language which he has used in the past.

How odd. You speak of blacks as though they were some kind of protected animal species you have personally taken under your wing. Judging by your paternal commitment to cupping your hands over their nappy ears to prevent them from hearing anything unseemly, I would guess that you privately hold them in a much lower regard than you would admit to here.

Let's allow visitors to this board to defend themselves.

Hear that sound? That's tumbleweeds blowing past with the lonely sound of the wind dragging them along the dusty avenues.

Where is the black Cleve? Where is he? I want to read him. Articulate, charming, disarming, witty, a wordsmith of no small powers, with his outrageously endearing comebacks always laced with a bit of absurd humor and gently mocking irreverence, I am certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that if such a man existed he would overturn all my convictions about race within a few hours. He would chide me on this board with his broad mastery of a hundred subjects and disciplines and before he was finished he would have completed his defense of black men by simply displaying his own gifts. I would leave here much wiser and with the certainty that there is something I must have overlooked in gathering my information about the world however much greater my exposure might be when compared with some common dullard like yourself. The black Cleve would make me laugh so often I would lose the the requisite ground by simple virtue of conceding his own natural superiority to men in general as evidenced in his grace and agility as a writer.

Where is the black Cleve? I want to read him.

This is the punchline. There is no black Cleve. There never will be. The existence of a black Cleve would invalidate all of my generalizations about blacks in general in the blink of an eye. If you think you know where I can find a black Cleve or any writer of color who is within a couple of light years of my own modest skill as a writer, point me to him. I want to see him.

You think about that, if you believe you can honestly call what goes on in that cross-eyed dimwitted puddin' head of yours thinking.

[Ibbz]

Well apparently on QT3, you do - as evidenced by the Ku Klux Kleve bandwagon continuing to roll merrily along with plenty of posters challenging his views. Not that I'm complaining any longer - I think I've finally attained that particular brand of QT3 enlightenment where you are no longer in any way bothered by Cleve Claven's posts, and merely appreciate them for their undeniable comedic value.
Hallelujah!
Another convert :D

[chet]

Where is the black Cleve? Where is he? I want to read him. Articulate, charming, disarming, witty, a wordsmith of no small powers, with his outrageously endearing comebacks always laced with a bit of absurd humor and gently mocking irreverence, I am certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that if such a man existed he would overturn all my convictions about race within a few hours. He would chide me on this board with his broad mastery of a hundred subjects and disciplines and before he was finished he would have completed his defense of black men by simply displaying his own gifts. I would leave here much wiser and with the certainty that there is something I must have overlooked in gathering my information about the world however much greater my exposure might be when compared with some common dullard like yourself. The black Cleve would make me laugh so often I would lose the the requisite ground by simple virtue of conceding his own natural superiority to men in general as evidenced in his grace and agility as a writer.

Where is the black Cleve? I want to read him.

This is the punchline. There is no black Cleve. There never will be. The existence of a black Cleve would invalidate all of my generalizations about blacks in general in the blink of an eye. If you think you know where I can find a black Cleve or any writer of color who is within a couple of light years of my own modest skill as a writer, point me to him. I want to see him.

You think about that, if you believe you can honestly call what goes on in that cross-eyed dimwitted puddin' head of yours thinking.

Cleve, according to your description, there is also no white Cleve.

Except in your mind.



Can we compare these totals?
Games released by Derek Smart? Games released by Cleve?


And Mark, if you seriously do not see what is offensive past anything else on this forum in his last post, I really don't know what to say. Why would an educated anybody, black or white, come to this forum after reading a post like that?

Chet

[Tom Chick]

Why would an educated anybody, black or white, come to this forum after reading a post like that?

Because there's plenty of other stuff to read here? Because Cleve is easy to ignore? Because no one with an ounce of sense should give Cleve's posts any more credence than Gary's comment about getting a boner when he stabs a baby? Because Sparky does great Photoshopping and you can get in on whatever filesharing wumpus and his buddies are doing?

Am I close? How many more guesses do I get?

-Tom, who would frankly rather not be posting in this thread

[wumpus]

I think Cleve has actually toned down quite a bit. Whether this is in response to the crusade you, Jeff Green, and others started or if he simply got tired of posting racist bile, I don't know, but I am thankful. At this point his posts are still present strong viewpoints, but I haven't seen the really nasty hateful comments I saw coming from him a few weeks ago.
There's no question that this has happened. I think "Cleve" knew that he'd be banned (or gently touched, your choice) sooner or later if that continued.

Outside of the racist hate speech, which had to stop, I have no valid reason for removing Cleve from the boards. I just wish he'd come up with something more interesting to post than the same old repetitive Cleve crap. If I wanted to read that, I could trawl through usenet archives.

Most of all, I'm unconvinced that "Cleve" has any legitimate interest in discussion. Cleve posts vitrolic crap for the sole purpose of later composing witty, over the top retorts to the inevitable responses. You know, hitting people so hard their skeletons fly out of their bodies, and other knee slappers. But hey, Mark is amused, so: mission accomplished.

[Tyjenks]

Anyone who is offended and leaves due to posts by Kleve must never turn on the TV, radio, go out of the house, talk to people, or even open their eyes to look out the window very often. He's offensive. This world is full of things that are offensive to all five of our senses and if we let each offense drive us from one place and then another, we might as well sequester ourselves on a pond somewhere and write poetry like Dr. Crypt does. Unfortunately, animals will fuck in your backyard and you will have to stay inside during each animals mating season, but that is the price you pay for a life which is blissfully free of offensive behavior.

[mtkafka]

Tyjenks you are the impossible.

Ipso Facto.

Cheerio!

etc

[chet]

When I was 10 we used to call up the white power hot-line for laughs. We could never get past the - "The Jew, is using the black as muscle." - without laughing so hard the rest of the message was lost.

I don't care what else was on those tapes, it could have been how to get free matchbox cars, we never would have believed or listened to any of it. Even at 10 we could comprehend how silly such statements were.

And sure, I could go anywhere and see hate speech and much more vile things. But why? Should we make sure we include everything vile everywhere? Just because we can?

Maybe someone should start writing child porn fiction and posting it here just to make sure that base is covered?

Chet

[wumpus]

Anyone who is offended and leaves due to posts by Kleve must never turn on the TV, radio, go out of the house, talk to people, or even open their eyes to look out the window very often. He's offensive.
He was offensive. Now that the hate speech has stopped, he's just boring.

[Cleve Blakemore]

When I was 10 we used to call up the white power hot-line for laughs. We could never get past the - "The Jew, is using the black as muscle." - without laughing so hard the rest of the message was lost.

I don't care what else was on those tapes, it could have been how to get free matchbox cars, we never would have believed or listened to any of it. Even at 10 we could comprehend how silly such statements were.

And sure, I could go anywhere and see hate speech and much more vile things. But why? Should we make sure we include everything vile everywhere? Just because we can?

Maybe someone should start writing child porn fiction and posting it here just to make sure that base is covered?

Chet

Interesting vague drifting sophistry - or not. Too bad nobody taught you how to reason inductively when you were little because it is sure as hell too late to learn now. Your arguments are erratic straw men without any conclusions to draw other than weak analogies and guilt by association.

I'm still waiting on that link to the black Cleve. Show me the black Mencke. I want to read him. Link me to the black Whitman. Where is he? How about the black Schopenhauer? Let me see the link to the black Wilde. Where is he? Let me see his work. I want to read the dark Voltaire or the beige Joyce. C'mon, you're not claiming that the geniuses in the ghetto can't access pencil and paper? What about the geniuses in the middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods? Let me guess, whitey be monopolizin' de felt-tipped pen industry, he be hab a clampdown on de means of production for de graphite leads. Dats why I be suckin' down dis heah D40 malt liquor instead of off writin' de next masterpiece. See heah, de man be clusterin' all de newsprint pads for hisself and rejectin' de bruddas who be sendin' dey work in on bark. Yessahm. Time fo de repamarations.

[chet]

And Cleve, I am still wondering; where is your website?

How is it that Derek Smart has time to not only finish a couple of games, but also post even more than you in forums around the world, while you struggle with your first game?

Is Derek Smart really nothing but a front?

Chet

[Jason McMaster]

Interesting vague drifting sophistry - or not. Too bad nobody taught you how to reason inductively when you were little because it is sure as hell too late to learn now. Your arguments are erratic straw men without any conclusions to draw other than weak analogies and guilt by association.

I'm still waiting on that link to the black Cleve. Show me the black Mencke. I want to read him. Link me to the black Whitman. Where is he? How about the black Schopenhauer? Let me see the link to the black Wilde. Where is he? Let me see his work. I want to read the dark Voltaire or the beige Joyce. C'mon, you're not claiming that the geniuses in the ghetto can't access pencil and paper? What about the geniuses in the middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods? Let me guess, whitey be monopolizin' de felt-tipped pen industry, he be hab a clampdown on de means of production for de graphite leads. Dats why I be suckin' down dis heah D40 malt liquor instead of off writin' de next masterpiece. See heah, de man be clusterin' all de newsprint pads for hisself and rejectin' de bruddas who be sendin' dey work in on bark. Yessahm. Time fo de repamarations.

Not the black Cleve (http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/)

Something much more accomplished and intelligent than a black doppelganger of you could be. I'm sure we'll be heralded with amazing tales of the mans faults and how simple he was, but nothing can change the level of intelligence and understanding he had. So, go ahead Cleve, blast away.

[Doug Erickson]

Instead, I'd say, "Ooooooohkay, John, I'll just go back to my cubicle. Sorry for asking you about the time

You couldn't just check the time on your computer? Or was the above anecdote purely a work of illustrative fiction? Unless, of course, you were making small talk with a man you'd already identified as "gay" and apparently unlikable.

[Mark Asher]

"And Mark, if you seriously do not see what is offensive past anything else on this forum in his last post, I really don't know what to say. Why would an educated anybody, black or white, come to this forum after reading a post like that?"

It's not a matter of my finding something offensive or not, though I find it difficult to get offended by posts on message boards.

Anyway, what would you have me do? Start removing all posts I find offensive? I'm pretty liberal. I could, in theory, work myself up to find conservative viewpoints offensive. Should I remove those? I was somewhat appalled by the posts piling on support of the execution of a man with the mental awareness of a seven year old. Should I remove those posts? Ban those posters?

Isn't it simpler just to ignore posts?

[Doug Erickson]

Who, exactly, feels threatened by Cleve? Do you folks also dodge to the opposite side of the steet when you see rambling bums in your local downtown area, addled as they are with Tourette's Syndrome and the moldy licorice smell of dried vomit?

If you're going to treat Cleve like the miserable, soul-broken paranoiac he is, at least be consistent, instead of fueling his image of his detractors as a bunch of shrill pansies.

[chet]

But then, couldn't people just ignore posts about Cleve? Seems contradictory.


But he seem gone, so all is moot.

Maybe.

Chet

[Mark Asher]

But then, couldn't people just ignore posts about Cleve? Seems contradictory.


But he seem gone, so all is moot.

Maybe.

Chet

Sure, but many of these posts seemed to me to imply that some sort of moderating action should be taken. That's what I was responding to, though perhaps you and others weren't implying that? I kept seeing people repeat that Cleve's racist posts were offensive. Yeah, and so what?

[freeman]

At first I was having some trouble coming up with the "black Cleve." Frederick Douglass (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p1539.html)? Too smart, too well-spoken. Malcolm X (http://www.brothermalcolm.net/)? Too introspective, and nowhere near as stubborn. Ralph Ellison (http://www.levity.com/corduroy/ellison.htm)? To my knowledge, Cleve has never written a great American novel. Finally, I figured it out. The closest thing to a black Cleve is Chuck D: An outspoken advocate of his own race's superiority, and full of crazy conspiracy theories (http://twtr.8m.com/chuckds.htm).

[wumpus]

I kept seeing people repeat that Cleve's racist posts were offensive. Yeah, and so what?
I agree, hate is funny. It's downright hilarious. Unfortunately, you take the hate away and whoops, there goes the humor as well.

[Mark Asher]

I kept seeing people repeat that Cleve's racist posts were offensive. Yeah, and so what?
I agree, hate is funny. It's downright hilarious. Unfortunately, you take the hate away and whoops, there goes the humor as well.

I agree with you about hate, but so what? I can read and disagree or even choose to not read, all without having to exercise censorship. It's easy. Try it.

[wumpus]

There's a chilling effect at work here. Reading a bunch of embedded hate speech does not a "fun" community make.

Beyond that, which requires more effort? 1,000 readers consciously (and assiduously) choosing to skip a post, or simply removing that poster altogether? Have some respect for your audience.

[Gary Whitta]

No doubt Kleve imagines he would also pummel James Baldwin (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/baldwin_j.html) in any kind of literary contest, also.

[Mark Asher]

There's a chilling effect at work here. Reading a bunch of embedded hate speech does not a "fun" community make.

Beyond that, which requires more effort? 1,000 readers consciously (and assiduously) choosing to skip a post, or simply removing that poster altogether? Have some respect for your audience.

I disagree with you. I'm not interested in hearing your opinion about how the board is moderated, or should be moderated. Will you please stop posting on these matters? Or is this going to be one of those kinds of topics you bring up over and over again?

[Tyjenks]

Embedded hate speech. That is laughable. He was not even a real racist, he was a parody of someone who lives under a rock with kangaroos and dingos. It was some random person here who successfully stirred up the Qt3ers and gave everyone multiple threads to ramble on in.

What about all of us that say fuck and pussy and asshat when someone new comes to the board? You think those people are smart enough to look at it in context and see who is saying what or will those noobs turn around like an Escalade driving soccer mom, exclaim, "I never!", and storm out of the forum. If Kleve is on the corner, you can walk to the otherside of the street, here you just skipped him. Or I did at least.

Embedded hate speech. :P Some of you have a little too much embedded melodrama goin' on.

[wumpus]

So how many posts does a guy with 3,662 posts "skip", exactly?

[Tyjenks]

As there are around 100,000 total posts here at Qt3, I have a bit of wiggle room in what I require myself to read and what I let slide. Turns out I was able to skip pretty much all of his once it became apparent one month ago or so that he was a fake and a troll. I think most of his posts are still here to be bitched about and, unfortunately, still embedded in the very fiber of this hallowed board. I would suggest you belabor this fact until Tommark deletes every one of his hatefilled diatribes from existence. Its the right thing to do and you should not rest until your mission is complete.

Oh and that's 3,663 thank you very much.

[Met_K]

Shut the fuck up, Tyjenks. You're missing the point when it's staring you right in the face.

He came to QT3 and successfully parodied someone else, like someone has been doing on Usenet for two years now, and stirred everything up. Check. Mark Asher egged it on, like he has been for years now. Check. Tom Chick bans Derek Smart and Bill Huffman, slaps voltaic around. Check. For what reasons? I can't find any Tom Chick related posts that involve Cleve on Usenet, but I found plenty of Mark, Chris Nahr, Sean Tudor, Jason McCullough, etc. posts.

You wonder why he hasn't been banned, Jeff? You know why he hasn't been banned. These schmucks have been suckered by him for years, and they will continue to be suckered by him for years. Whether they purposely respond, or because of some deep-down hereditary flaw they inherited from their primate cousins who just couldn't resist throwing rocks at the gorrilla twenty feet away giving them the finger... I don't know.

The point is that Cleve is not going away unless he chooses to go away. So why not do what I do? Get yourself banned and have fun in the process.

[Mark Asher]

Ok, enough is enough. Met_K is making even less sense than usual, and wumpus is being wumpus and refusing to let go, even though he was asked to stop posting on this particular subject.

I'm locking this thread (if I can figure out how).

Folks, I'm just not going to allow endless debate about how these boards are moderated, which is what posts more or less urging the banning of anyone are doing.