Keith Olbermann goes apeshit: [Archive]

malphigian

03-13-2008, 05:54 AM

Ferraro's comments certainly weren't right (I don't think race is a key factor helping Obama), but I don't think they qualify as "vile racism" either.

This, like the various Obama adviser issues, is a minor thing being blown way out of proportion. I guess that's all they can do right now to try and gain an edge, but I don't think any of it calls for Olbermann's patented condescending rage.

Ben Sones

03-13-2008, 06:11 AM

The rise of Obama is starkly symbolic of the absence of a legitimate European American perspective in the media establishment or in the American political process.

You know, when you find yourself in David Duke's echo chamber, I think it's time for some serious self-reflection.

Machfive

03-13-2008, 06:18 AM

I think that taken by themselves, the comments were offensive, but not necessarily racist. But when you find out she said something similar 20 years ago about Jesse Jackson, you can't help wonder why she has a pattern of making race-baiting commentary and if there isn't something more to it.

Hillary's response to this has been pathetic, and Olberman once again proves how awesome he can be by totally calling her shit out.

Stroker Ace

03-13-2008, 06:30 AM

Is being a minority not a benefit in a Democratic primary? Both of the remaining candidates are minorities, right?

I can't speak for Ferraro but I'm personally excited by the idea of a President that's not a white guy.

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 06:53 AM

Women are a minority! Who knew? Can they get handicapped parking placards as well?

Machfive

03-13-2008, 06:53 AM

My hairstylist seems to think there are a lot of people like his parents, who, and I quote, "Aren't racist, but they'd never vote for a black man." I didn't realize you could be non-racist and still say "No black man would ever be eligible for my vote," but then I'm a pretty accepting kind of guy.

Our only hope is that the young tolerant people outweigh the old ignant people.

malphigian

03-13-2008, 06:59 AM

I can't speak for Ferraro but I'm personally excited by the idea of a President that's not a white guy.

It'll either be a woman, an african american, or a revenant.

Machfive

03-13-2008, 07:02 AM

It'll either be a woman, an african american, or a reaver.

Fixed.

Stroker Ace

03-13-2008, 07:02 AM

Women are a minority! Who knew? Can they get handicapped parking placards as well?I don't think this sort of feigned ignorance is useful on a relatively well-educated forum like Qt3.

SlyFrog

03-13-2008, 07:11 AM

Olbermann gets noticed by being hardass on Bush, tries again on another politician. Film at 11.

Theodore Rex DX

03-13-2008, 07:51 AM

I think he's hammy, but pretty much right.

Dirt

03-13-2008, 09:18 AM

Technically, Obama is a mulatto.

BlueJackalope

03-13-2008, 09:23 AM

Technically, Obama is a mulatto.

Does your spleen ever want to reach up and strangle your brain before you hit the post button?

Andrew Mayer

03-13-2008, 09:26 AM

I'd love to see a transcript of this commentary, it's really well put together.

Who loves ya, baby? (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/03/12/countdown-special-comment-sen-clinton-this-is-not-a-campaign-strategy-this-is-a-suicide-pact/)

Jonathan Blow

03-13-2008, 09:33 AM

The "reject and denounce" at the end of the Special Comment was a great touch.

mystery

03-13-2008, 09:33 AM

Did Olbermann's rant come before or after Clinton apologized (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/03/12/2008-03-12_hillary_clinton_apologizes_to_black_vote.html)?
I certainly do repudiate it and I regret deeply that it was said. Obviously she doesn't speak for the campaign, she doesn't speak for any of my positions, and she has resigned from being a member of my very large finance committee

Mike O'Malley

03-13-2008, 10:15 AM

mystery

03-13-2008, 10:20 AM

Why does she feel the need to point out that it's a very large finance committee? Is she compensating for something?

I certainly wouldn't stress its size given that Obama's stomping her in the fundraising department.

I looked at that twice as well, but then I realized that in distancing herself from Ferraro, she'd want to point out that Geraldine was a small part of the finance committee, and not even an important part at that, lest people believe she's crippled by the absence.

VegasRobb

03-13-2008, 10:39 AM

I thought Ferraro's resignation letter was poorly done. She really put Clinton in a worse spot when she tried to elaborate on the reasons for her resignation.

Duality

03-13-2008, 10:52 AM

...or a reaver.

http://www.webwombat.com.au/games/images/burning-crusade-1.jpg

He's got my vote...

Glenn

03-13-2008, 10:55 AM

Does your spleen ever want to reach up and strangle your brain before you hit the post button?Don't listen to him, Dirt. That's the best use of the word "technically" I've ever seen.

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 11:01 AM

I don't think this sort of feigned ignorance is useful on a relatively well-educated forum like Qt3.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Would a hug help much?

I'm still trying to figure out how Hillary qualifies as a minority.

Stroker Ace

03-13-2008, 11:06 AM

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:_YrKqDgpEokcgM:http://www.socketmanufacturers.com/switch/XB2-BS542-Push-Button-Switch.jpgKeep pushing, maybe someone will take the bait.

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 11:16 AM

Do you mean minority as compared to all past presidents?

Stroker Ace

03-13-2008, 11:26 AM

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 11:30 AM

Ohhh, wikipedia. I didn't think to look there. I'm glad someone did.

Stroker Ace

03-13-2008, 11:46 AM

riposte

Sarkus

03-13-2008, 11:52 AM

wikipedia

minority or subordinate group is a sociological group that does not constitute a politically dominant plurality of the total population of a given society. A sociological minority is not necessarily a numerical minority — it may include any group that is disadvantaged with respect to a dominant group in terms of social status, education, employment, wealth and political power. To avoid confusion, some writers prefer the terms "subordinate group" and "dominant group" rather than "minority" and "majority".

diaf

So, using this definition, and limiting our discussion to "now" and not "the past", what areas do you think women are disadvantaged in? As others have pointed out already, women are very close now in employment and wealth and education. There are women in top political positions (unless you want to argue about proportionality). There are women all over pop culture. We have a woman running for president. We have women CEO's and all over the corporate world.

Women are certainly not disadvantaged to the degree of other minority groups.

Dirt

03-13-2008, 11:56 AM

Women are certainly not disadvantaged to the degree of other minority groups.

I think that's a conclusion only women can make.

mystery

03-13-2008, 11:58 AM

I think that's a conclusion only women can make.

Dude, he's calling you a little girl.

Stroker Ace

03-13-2008, 11:59 AM

I yield the floor to Anders, resident feminist.

ravenight

03-13-2008, 12:52 PM

Women are certainly not disadvantaged to the degree of other minority groups.

Yet a rant similar to this one has not appeared in response to widespread use of the word "bitch" to refer to Hilary. As in, "Well, she's a bitch - I mean I'd vote for a woman for president, but this woman is a bitch and I don't like her."

Anaxagoras

03-13-2008, 01:28 PM

Women are a minority! Who knew? Can they get handicapped parking placards as well?

Everyone except you, apparently. You are aware that "minority" does not refer to the % of the population you are, right?

Sarkus

03-13-2008, 01:33 PM

Yet a rant similar to this one has not appeared in response to widespread use of the word "bitch" to refer to Hilary. As in, "Well, she's a bitch - I mean I'd vote for a woman for president, but this woman is a bitch and I don't like her."

The use of the term "bitch" doesn't have anything to do with whether or not women are disadvantaged. People didn't vote for Romney because he came across as somewhat sleazy, for example, and the same issue applies to Hillary - some people simply don't like her personality and don't like the way she acts. They may use the term "bitch" but that's just the gender specific term for not liking how a person acts.

There are a number of high profile female politcians. Very few of them have the negative public image Hillary has with a lot of people. Maybe it's time to realize that those negatives belong to Hillary as an individual and have nothing to do with her gender.

Aeon221

03-13-2008, 01:36 PM

Everyone except you, apparently. You are aware that "minority" does not refer to the % of the population you are, right?

So, even though there are more women than men in this country, they're the minority?

Awesome.

Anaxagoras

03-13-2008, 01:41 PM

So, even though there are more women than men in this country, they're the minority?

Awesome.

That's correct.

mystery

03-13-2008, 03:09 PM

So, even though there are more women than men in this country, they're the minority?

Awesome.

Reading comprehension fails this one. I vote for liquidation.

Gordon Cameron

03-13-2008, 03:29 PM

At this point someone could actually chime in with an accepted definition of "minority," or people could just keep tossing the snark around.

Dirt

03-13-2008, 03:35 PM

Oppressed.

Uncle Larry

03-13-2008, 03:50 PM

At this point someone could actually chime in with an accepted definition of "minority," or people could just keep tossing the snark around.

That looks to be the biggest obstacle this thread faces, Gordon.

As far as classic the definition goes: Hillary is a white woman in America, which is like the opposite of a minority.

Usually when Americans are talking about (our guilt-laden) issues of inequality, we phrase it "minorities and women", although sometimes we also phrase it "women and minorities", though the former seems preferred by virtue of voting suffrage senority.

Athryn

03-13-2008, 04:04 PM

Robert Sharp

03-13-2008, 04:10 PM

Well, power comes in forms other than voting. But yeah, I'd say historically women are an oppressed group. The question though is about oppression today. I'd say women are still oppressed in many ways, but not to the degree that certain minorities are.

Ryan A

03-13-2008, 04:10 PM

Technically, Obama is a mulatto.

There you go again trolling with racial slurs. Do you have tourette syndrome or are you just a retarded bigot?

magnet

03-13-2008, 04:19 PM

At this point someone could actually chime in with an accepted definition of "minority," or people could just keep tossing the snark around.

Operationally, a group is a minority in a given arena if it is under-represented at its highest levels.

For example, did you know that Obama is only the third African-American ever to be elected to the US Senate? And he's the only one in there right now! The other two were Carol Moseley-Braun and Edward Brooke. I don't know why, but that really surprised me when I found out.

Incidentally, there are currently 16 women in the US Senate. So they are still a political minority, but not as much as blacks (0.13/0.01 > 0.5/0.16).

Dirt

03-13-2008, 04:25 PM

There you go again trolling with racial slurs. Do you have tourette syndrome or are you just a retarded bigot?

Yes, I guess it would be to you.

I knew this girl in high school who had a black father and white mother. She would often and frequently refer to herself as a mulatto. Many times in earshot to our teachers. I know it isn't a politically correct term in English, but it also doesn't quite carry the mark of a slur. In the Romance languages, it's an appropriate word to use.

However, if I did offend your sensibilities, then I do apologize.

Gordon Cameron

03-13-2008, 04:31 PM

There were a couple black senators during Reconstruction, or at least one (Hiram Revels). Maybe he was appointed.

Gordon Cameron

03-13-2008, 04:32 PM

I was unaware that "mulatto" was a racial slur.

It's tough to keep up.

magnet

03-13-2008, 04:37 PM

Yep, both Hiram Revels and Blanche Bruce were appointed, not elected.

Ryan A

03-13-2008, 04:39 PM

The term is derived from the word for mule. I can't imagine anything other than racist overtones to be referred to as a mixed breed creature that is half horse and half donkey. Which side do you think is the inferred donkey?

Thanks for responding with such civility to my flame though, Dirt.

Gordon Cameron

03-13-2008, 04:43 PM

I'd never heard the etymology before.

As for Revels, Wikipedia says he was in fact elected:

At the time, each state senate elected the state's US senators. Revels was elected by a vote of 81 to 15 in the Mississippi State Senate to fill the last year of the unexpired term of one of the state's two senators in the U.S. Senate; the seat had once been held by Jefferson Davis, the former president of the Confederate States of America.

It was not a direct election by the populace, but that was the case for all senators prior to the direct-election amendment passed in the teens. Maybe that's what you meant by "appointed" and it could be a matter of semantics. Also wiki with a grain of salt as usual.

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 04:50 PM

Everyone except you, apparently. You are aware that "minority" does not refer to the % of the population you are, right?
It actually does refer to that. I'm sorry if that offends you.

caesarbear

03-13-2008, 05:17 PM

Women are certainly not disadvantaged to the degree of other minority groups.
This is a whole other topic, but I will just say that if your perception of a women's place isn't equal to that of a man's, then of course you can't see the disadvantages.

Also, I prefer the term 'second-class citizen' rather than minority, because that's really what it is.

TomChick

03-13-2008, 05:25 PM

It actually does refer to that.

Only if you're being a pedantic dick. I think most people fully understand when the meaning of the term "minority" includes women, who actually are in the minority in our government. Which, you know, is the thing folks were talking about.

But by all means, keep jumping up and down and insulting people so they'll pay attention to you.

-Tom

Rob Beschizza

03-13-2008, 06:12 PM

It's certainly true that the wealthy Senator spouses of former presidents are a minority. I, for one, would love to be oppressed by demands that I make public my tax returns.

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 06:18 PM

Only if you're being a pedantic dick. I think most people fully understand when the meaning of the term "minority" includes women, who actually are in the minority in our government. Which, you know, is the thing folks were talking about.

But by all means, keep jumping up and down and insulting people so they'll pay attention to you.

-Tom
I DID ask if he meant minority in a more closed group (I guessed he was talking about "presidents," not "politicians"). I just happen to find it ridiculous that a group of people (white females) who outnumber every other group along racial and gender lines) are referred to as a minority. If you mean oppressed or under-represented or unequal in financial and social stature, that's quite a different thing than a minority, which has nothing to do with being pedantic OR a dick. It has to do with having a dick, however. ~_~

And speaking of dicks, TOM, I haven't actually insulted anyone in this thread. I asked a question. I disagreed with the answer. WELCOME TO P&R, BITCH!

*smackdown!*

Anyway, I think it's counter-productive to refer to women as a minority, even if what you mean is disadvantaged in some capacity (unless your goal is to entrench them permanently as second-class citizens). And doing so ALSO plays right into the hands of the Ferraros out there who will always see campaigns such as Hillary's and Obama's in terms less to do with their stands on the issues and abilities to govern, and more along the lines of how they are treated by the press and (allegedly) perceived by the public. Saying "both candidates are minorities, let's get over it," doesn't help.

Finally, an interesting anecdote about Geraldine Ferraro. When I was a young teen, my mom held up a copy of Newsweek and asked if I knew who was on the cover. "Let's Dance" had just come out and I was loving it so I instantly shouted out, "David Bowie!" It turns out I was wrong, but I think I was still pretty close:

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2720/davidbowie07ic3.jpg

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2241/ferrarovx2.jpg

MikeSofaer

03-13-2008, 06:27 PM

I'm going to back up NWJ on this one. "Minority" is a widely-applied word that has a consistent meaning across topical domains. It means a subset of cardinality less than 1/2 that of the containing set. That's what it means in every field in which it's used*, and that's what it should mean in politics and social science, in order to preserve the coherence of the English language.

If you mean that women comprise fewer than half of the members of the U.S. Senate, then you can say it like this: "Women are a minority in the Senate" and only a pedant would point out that you had not specified which Senate. If you mean that women do not as a whole hold as much political power as their numbers might imply, you could say "Women are underrepresented in government". But you can't say that women are a minority in the US because they are a minority in the Senate; that is very silly, and can possibly be construed as opposition to RSofaer's Dominion.

The choice of a phrase like "Operational Minority" is so poor it verges on deliberately misleading. It sounds to me more like a post-hoc rationalization of a lazy thought process than a creative logical construction for use in actual analysis, but that's just me being OBJECTIVELY CORRECT.

* In fairness, "Minority" is almost never used in reference to the largest party in a parliamentary election, which in the case it does not pass 50% of the seats, is referred to as having a "plurality". Still, referring to the party as being a minority in the body is more misleading than incorrect.

TomChick

03-13-2008, 06:44 PM

Hey, if we want a thread about the meaning of minority, that's one thing. But when Stroker Ace writes this...

Is being a minority not a benefit in a Democratic primary? Both of the remaining candidates are minorities, right?

I can't speak for Ferraro but I'm personally excited by the idea of a President that's not a white guy.

...it's pretty clear he was using the term to mean folks other than white guys. I bolded the appropriate part in case anyone missed it. But, yeah, I guess like most pedantic comments, NoWayJose's was technically correct. However, I don't see why he didn't lead with the Bowie anecdote. It's much stronger material.

-Tom

Machfive

03-13-2008, 06:48 PM

That's a picture of Bowie? I didn't bother to read Nowayjose's post, and wondered to myself why he was posting pictures of Tilda Swinton.

magnet

03-13-2008, 06:50 PM

You can relax, Mike. People like you are exactly why Wikipedia has disambiguation pages.

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 06:53 PM

That's a picture of Bowie? I didn't bother to read Nowayjose's post, and wondered to myself why he was posting pictures of Tilda Swinton.
These are my very favorite Qt3 posts. I used to think it was the old "changing the quoted text to make a poor analogy" posts, but really, the YAAAAWWWWN posts take the cake every time.

"I'm just announcing I couldn't be bothered, everyone. Updates will be provided as events warrant (or don't, MORE LIKELY!)"

PS. Yes, that was David Bowie. He's a rock musician. Cool people listen to him - maybe you know someone who does and can tell you more about him?

magnet

03-13-2008, 06:54 PM

tl; dr

Machfive

03-13-2008, 07:04 PM

These are my very favorite Qt3 posts. I used to think it was the old "changing the quoted text to make a poor analogy" posts, but really, the YAAAAWWWWN posts take the cake every time.

"I'm just announcing I couldn't be bothered, everyone. Updates will be provided as events warrant (or don't, MORE LIKELY!)"

PS. Yes, that was David Bowie. He's a rock musician. Cool people listen to him - maybe you know someone who does and can tell you more about him?

Actually, I read your post, but if I said I had then I couldn't make a joke about how much Tilda Swinton looks like David Bowie.

THANKS FOR RUINING THE FUN ASSHOLE.

jerri blank

03-13-2008, 07:22 PM

THANKS FOR RUINING THE FUN ASSHOLE.

There was a fun asshole here who got ruined? Which one?

MikeSofaer

03-13-2008, 07:50 PM

You can relax, Mike. People like you are exactly why Wikipedia has disambiguation pages.
I can't relax! My final is due in 21 hours!

NoWayJose

03-13-2008, 08:32 PM

Actually, I read your post, but if I said I had then I couldn't make a joke about how much Tilda Swinton looks like David Bowie.

THANKS FOR RUINING THE FUN ASSHOLE.
Sorry. :(

shift6

03-13-2008, 08:44 PM

I certainly do repudiate it and I regret deeply that it was said. Obviously she doesn't speak for the campaign, she doesn't speak for any of my positions, and she has resigned from being a member of my very large finance committee
Statements from a member of Clinton's campaign finance committee: repudiated and irrelevant.

Statements from Obama's pastor: an indictment of everything the man believes and the way in which he would lead this country to ruin! Ruin I say!

Ranulf

03-14-2008, 12:55 AM

Considering women have only been able to vote for the past 88 years, I would qualify us as a historically oppressed group. Just because there are more of us than men doesn't mean we are more powerful .... I mean, you could apply that kind of logic to the South during slavery, where slaves outnumbered slave owners on a pretty large scale.

And no, I am not saying women are slaves now, and we have come an awful long way since 1920. Keep in mind though that men of different races were able to legally vote (barring jim crow laws of course) for 50 years longer than any race of women have been able to.

Uh, not exactly.

National vote for women? 1920 takes the beam out of Wilson's eye. Various states? As early as 1870, Wyoming I believe. That would mean they could vote for a national office (well only congressmen until 1913 when senators were elected not via state legislatures but the citizenry). As well, some states early on in the republic allowed women land owners to vote, from around 1780s (articles of Confederation era) to around 1800 where they lost the franchise. Aka John Adam's "despotism of the petticoat" era.

Some states didnt give the vote to non land owners till the mid-late 1800s. That included most white men in the "non voting" bloc. Its very PC to say white men have had the franchise since 1776 but its not true. Women are far from a "minority" in this country. They make up a majority of the voters apparently and these days are graduating from universities at higher rates than men.

caesarbear

03-14-2008, 01:42 AM

Women are far from a "minority" in this country.
In terms of raw numbers certainly not, but they are still second-class citizens without constitutional protection.

Zarathustra

03-14-2008, 06:31 AM

I can't speak for Ferraro but I'm personally excited by the idea of a President that's not a white guy.

How is this any less racist than saying "I don't want a non-white president?" Just asking.... I'm sure a lot of non-white people feel the same as Stroker, which is pretty much what Ferraro was getting at.

madkevin

03-14-2008, 07:53 AM

PS. Yes, that was David Bowie. He's a rock musician. Cool people listen to him - maybe you know someone who does and can tell you more about him?

Cool people in 1975, maybe.

olaf

03-14-2008, 08:18 AM

Whatever her comments were its completely insane to call them racist. It seems to me she thinks him being black has helped his candidacy. How does that make her a racist? Wrong, maybe. Maybe not. Who gives a fuck, how is it racist?

Her being a women definitely got her on the ticket in 1984. Is it misogyny to point that out?

Midnight Son

03-14-2008, 08:26 AM

I love it when KO goes apeshit!

Midnight Son

03-14-2008, 08:26 AM

Cool people in 1975, maybe.

Cool people now listen to Rap, right?

Matthew Gallant

03-14-2008, 08:32 AM

It's racist because it discounts his charisma and his platform, which is what makes him a good candidate. He is not "vote for me, I'm not a white man." He is "vote for me, I'm on your side."

If being black helped you as a candidate, we would see a government run by a higher percentage of black people than there were living in the country. Since the opposite is the case, Ferraro is so obviously wrong that ipso facto she is either expressing a pointedly biased sentiment or she is completely ignorant.

madkevin

03-14-2008, 08:40 AM

Cool people now listen to Rap, right?

Cool people in 1985, maybe.

BlueJackalope

03-14-2008, 08:45 AM

Yes, I guess it would be to you.

I knew this girl in high school who had a black father and white mother. She would often and frequently refer to herself as a mulatto. Many times in earshot to our teachers. I know it isn't a politically correct term in English, but it also doesn't quite carry the mark of a slur. In the Romance languages, it's an appropriate word to use.

However, if I did offend your sensibilities, then I do apologize.

Tell us dirt, what part of your ongoing, rational, incisive, highly effective and not at all racial inspired criticism of Obama, does pointing out that he is "technically...a mulatto", serve?

Midnight Son

03-14-2008, 08:48 AM

Oh snap!

Ben Sones

03-14-2008, 08:51 AM

If being black helped you as a candidate, we would see a government run by a higher percentage of black people than there were living in the country. Since the opposite is the case, Ferraro is so obviously wrong that ipso facto she is either expressing a pointedly biased sentiment or she is completely ignorant.

This bears repeating, perhaps over and over again.

Dirt

03-14-2008, 08:54 AM

Tell us dirt, what part of your ongoing, rational, incisive, highly effective and not at all racial inspired criticism of Obama, does pointing out that he is "technically...a mulatto", serve?

You, dude. It's all about you.

Stroker Ace

03-14-2008, 09:19 AM

The point is not "being black wins elections" but rather "not being a white male gets you a second look in the contemporary Democratic primary process from people interested in increasing diversity in government".

Ben Sones

03-14-2008, 09:26 AM

But even that argument is utterly divorced from reality. How often has a non-white male even come close to winning the Democratic nomination? Oh, right: never.

Stroker Ace

03-14-2008, 09:27 AM

How often has a Democratic primary candidate been endorsed by Oprah?

Ben Sones

03-14-2008, 09:34 AM

But we aren't talking about whether he is popular because Oprah endorsed him; we are talking about whether he is popular because he is black. And the very fact that Oprah hasn't endorsed black candidates in the past flies in the face of the implication you are trying to make.

Stroker Ace

03-14-2008, 09:35 AM

Ok I admit it, no one cares whether or not a minority candidate wins the nomination.

Ben Sones

03-14-2008, 09:40 AM

Nobody is making that argument. Of course people care, but that's not what Ferraro said. She said, specifically (and on several different occasions) that Obama wouldn't even be in the running if he weren't black. That's a little different than saying that his race matters--she's claiming that it's the only thing that matters, in any meaningful sense. But looking at the facts, that is patently false, because being black very much does not get you elected to the office of president (or any political office, arguably).

Stroker Ace

03-14-2008, 09:41 AM

I'll agree with that. He's definitely qualified, and for a certain (small?) subset of the electorate his not being white is a plus on top of his actual credentials.

Dirt

03-14-2008, 09:44 AM

Maybe not 20 years ago. But, I think, being black helps with the youngin's and probably hurts with the much older voters; I think we can see that in the exit polls. Which is not to say that Obama's charisma isn't a factor, but it's difficult to see how the dream of having a black looking President doesn't give him extra momentum. Had Obama been born looking more like his mother than his father, even with his charisma, his path to the Presidency would be far more difficult.

Erik

03-14-2008, 09:44 AM

being black very much does not get you elected to the office of president (or any political office, arguably).

Well, mayor of Baltimore.

Matthew Gallant

03-14-2008, 10:02 AM

Had Obama been born looking more like his mother than his father,
Have you ever seen his mother? Apart from being white, I can't imagine them looking much more alike:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/14/us/14obama_400.jpg

P.S. Luk at tha seize uv that buoy's heed.

Ranulf

03-14-2008, 10:39 AM

In terms of raw numbers certainly not, but they are still second-class citizens without constitutional protection.

Alright, I'll ask, how so? Is there not an EEOC? Who is favored in the court systems? Hint: Women tend to get lower sentences than men for similar crimes. Recent examples might be Mary Winker, Debra LaFave, and Lorena Bobbit. Who is favored (aka most likely to be believed) in sexual harrassment cases? Women. Divorce/custody situations? Women. Domestic violence situations? Look up the deluth model and you know, that thing called VAWA, the Violence against Women Act. Oh, its equal in wording but not in name or in actual funding practices.

Rightbug

03-14-2008, 10:42 AM

I'll agree with that. He's definitely qualified, and for a certain (small?) subset of the electorate his not being white is a plus on top of his actual credentials.

But almost certainly this is offset by a larger subset of the electorate (yes, within Democratic voters) who feel that his not being white is a negative.

I don't think many people would argue that for black voters, his race is a significant reason they are supporting him over another candidate. I can't speak for other white voters but it was not a factor for me. For me it had to do with his elloquence, intelligence and positive vision for America and the political process.

This whole idea that being a minority gives you an unfair advantage is a rediculous canard floated by folks trying to stir up resentment on the part of whites. As evidence of this, we might point to the fact that we are even having this conversation -- If Obama was the same exact person only white, we would not be having this conversation.

Mike O'Malley

03-14-2008, 10:53 AM

Well, mayor of Baltimore.

Like Martin O'Malley?

Matthew Gallant

03-14-2008, 11:00 AM

If Obama was the same exact person only white, we would not be having this conversation.
He is in fact half white, so maybe we should only be having

Stroker Ace

03-14-2008, 11:27 AM

is someone else's.

shift6

03-14-2008, 11:29 AM

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/14/us/14obama_400.jpg
Obama's mom has John Kerry's profile. Holy shit.

caesarbear

03-14-2008, 07:04 PM

Alright, I'll ask, how so? Is there not an EEOC?
That's not a constitutional protection.
Who is favored in the court systems? Hint: Women tend to get lower sentences than men for similar crimes.
It's not about school ground fairness. You're simply pointing out another inequity caused by social misconceptions of women exhibited in law. Holding women to equal standards as men in justice is not a detriment to women holding equality of citizenship, it's fact the same.

JeffL

03-15-2008, 08:09 AM

Nobody is making that argument. Of course people care, but that's not what Ferraro said. She said, specifically (and on several different occasions) that Obama wouldn't even be in the running if he weren't black. That's a little different than saying that his race matters--she's claiming that it's the only thing that matters, in any meaningful sense.

At first I thought people were over-reacting in the old PC manner to her comments. Oh, heavens, she referred to his race!

But Ben is correct - if you look at what she said (and repeated) she is saying that Obama is where he is only because he's black. What is really telling is that she said exactly the same thing about Jesse Jackson back when he was running.