The official Qt3 Neverwinter Nights letdown thread

[Rob O'Boston]

Preface: The game is great. Here is the story of reality following super anticipation.

Well, I've had at it for 5 hours. That 5 hours contains mostly setup, video tweaks, Prelude (finished), and 2 multiplayer surrealistic experiences. After so much freaking hype (I literally woke up at 5am the last two mornings thinking about this game) there was bound to be some let down.

Letdowns:

1. My computer is struggling with this baby. My frame rates are on the poor side, and my audio card is stuttering all the time. Naturally, this isn't a complaint about the game, but it does put a damper on the experience.

2. The multiplayer does remind me an awful lot of Vampire:TM. Mind you, this is the first night, and I was online with strangers. And, after watching a Gold Dragon stomp around in the prelude part following some adventurers (the DM and his friends I guess), I had to get out for fear of being annoyed to death. As plenty of people have said, the game really shines most with a group of well controlled friends. You can't just join up like an Everquest or a DAoC and expect there to be plenty to do no matter what. If you show up late to the party all you'll do is follow a swath of dead monsters until you catch up.

3. The text communication is pretty small, and kind of all over the place (above my dudes head, and the info feeds on the text bar in 2 separate sections). I had a hard time in the multiplayer figuring out who was talking to what. Half the time I didn't even know who was a pc and who was an npc.


The game rocks. Now, I just gotta break through my imaginings of what the game was going to be, and get comfortable with what it is (which is a lot!).

[Murph]

1. My computer is struggling with this baby. My frame rates are on the poor side, and my audio card is stuttering all the time. Naturally, this isn't a complaint about the game, but it does put a damper on the experience.

Really? Color me officially surprised. I had no problems with the beta, and I have, literally, the minimum system requirements. (Well, okay, a little extra RAM and a GeForce 2 Ti card, but other than that, the side of the box seems to be talking about my poor system.)

My only letdown with the game is that I didn't get my pre-ordered copy today. Hopefully it'll be here tomorrow.

[Rob O'Boston]

Hey Murph, sorry it didn't come yet. Yeah, I usually do ok with my rig, but I guess its getting a little long in the tooth. Its a 2 year old Dell, 600 mhz, TNT2, TBS Montego sound card, with 256 RAM. I just jumped back in and I would guess I'm getting 10-15 fps. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. I played a lot of WW2OL at roughly .3 fps last summer, so this is cake. Its definitely a game that could call for a systems upgrade.

[Rob O'Boston]

I have a strange question: The solo game is choppy, and the cut scenes skip and stutter, etc. However, when I go online, the game is smooth (on a good server) and the video plays great. Isn't this a clear indicator that my machine is over matched?

[Murph]

That's odd. The video cutscenes were always really choppy and stuttered, too. I've never been able to sit through one in its entirety.

I'm running a 450 MHz processor, at this point. I've got another motherboard/CPU combo, but I'm waiting on compatible RAM to have a working set again, so I'm stuck with my K6-2. I had no problems with the beta (which was, admittedly, online-only...It's interesting that you're getting smoother framerates online than in single-player. No offense, but I hope that I don't have the same problem!), even on this set, so it seems odd to me that you're having problems. I wonder if the single-player is substantially different behind the scenes. I didn't think it was, but this makes me wonder...

[Dave Long]

The video card you're using released before Stonehenge was built is the likely culprit.

--Dave

[Martinez]

I've mucked around the single player game for about 2 hours. I'm extremely impressed!!! It's like Baldur's Gate in 3D, and you only control 1 main character!

The frame-rate is excellent on my machine, no complaints there.

I'm really interested in the Toolset. I've fiddled around with it for another two hours. I'm finding it really beautiful, but has some shortfalls, esp internet mp.

The graphics and sounds are wonderful. It's easy to create a nice looking scene. It's like those rub-on comic scenery toys I used to play with as a kid, but in 3d! Even creating conversations that branched was a breeze.

I am having a difficult time rotating buildings. Can it be done? Also, to test module, you have to LAUNCH the game. Kind of a drag. Too bad there is not an option to immediatly jump into your world.

ANyway, I guess I need to RTFM. I am glad it's hefty, I just hope there is good info on the toolset.

So far, it's EVERYTHING I've expected it to be. Of course, I've only had it for 4 hours.

Oh... the internet multiplayer SUCKS! :evil: Horrible horrible interface. EVERY game I tried to log on said the password was incorrect! I made sure to hide all password protect servers. I even tried to direct connect with an IP that someone was kind enough to message me. He had 17 currently playing and said he had NO password. We were both running the latest 1.18 patch. Oh well. Hopefully this gets resolved soon. I'm more interested in playing custom modules in the future.

[Ben Sones]

If a building is a tile, you can rotate it to face any of the four ordinal direction by right clicking before you place it (select the building, move your cursor over the map and you'll see the ghost image of the building you are about to place, right click to get the facing you want, then left click to place). Placeables (in the Placeables menu) can be rotated freely, but tiles have to face NSEW (so that the tiles line up).

I could spend the better part of a lifetime just fooling around with the toolset. It's really, incredibly cool. Start messing with area properties--colored fog and lighting, ambient sounds (and sound placeables), music... you can take two areas that are otherwise identical and make them feel like completely different places just by messing with all the ambient stuff.

[Martinez]

Hey thanks!

And thanks for the quick reply!! :D

I'm really liking the toolset!

[Murph]

EVERY game I tried to log on said the password was incorrect!

In the beta, we had to have an account registered over at the NWN forums at bioware's website, and they used that account when we joined a server. If you don't have an account there, it sounds like that might be the problem, but if you didn't have a sign-in, you could never make it so far to select the server, so maybe that's not it at all...

Very strange problem you're having. Have you e-mailed tech support?

[Anonymous]

Trying to play this game with a TNT2 is not a great idea. Or a really slow processor (sub-800 MHz). It's a pretty 3D game with a lot of cool particle effects and, if you elect to use them, really amazingly nice textures. You can zoom WAY in and still have a lot of detail.

But if you've got less than a GeForce 2, you're not going to be able to turn on all the shadows and grass and stuff.

As for the stuttering movies: hmm... that sucks, and it could be a number of things (really fragmented hard drive, low available RAM, sound card drivers, blah blah blah). The first movie isn't a lot, but the end of Chapter 1 is when the plot starts to get really cool and the intro movie to Chapter 2 is definitely worth sitting through. Same paitings scaling out while some guy reads narration, but man--the things that happen!

Anyway, jumping right into multiplayer is probably not the best way to get a good feel for the game. Particularly not with some dumbass DM who's just dropping dragons into the Prelude or whatever. The first chapter is a bit chaotic in terms of quests (you have four main parts you can do in any order, and a whole mess of side quests) and it can be hard to keep it straight if the players are scattered all over doing whatever.

Best to play it yourself until you've done most of Chapter 1 and have your bearings straight.

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah, and you can change how much feedback is in the chat/log windows by right-clicking on the top bar of them and enabling/disabling different types of messages.

You can also drag the top bar up and down to resize them.

[Martinez]

Thanks Murph, that's something to look into.

I haven't email support yet. I wanna at least flip through the manual a bit first.

I wasn't the only only having the password problem. I'll take a look at the official forums as well.

I can see that jumping into the mp so soon could be trouble just by reading some of the text in the chat. I just wanted to see what it was like. I don't plan to advertise my server or worry about playing there on that mess unless it gets cleaned up and people lose interest in the novelty of hosting a server "just because". :roll:

[Ben Sones]

Yeah, what Jason said. No game design can compensate for a crappy DM, unfortunately. Find better people to play with (or ideally, get a group of friends together). This game isn't Everquest--I'm guessing it's going to be a lot more fun to play with people that you know.

For one, I'll say that the tools (both the editor and the DM client) are worlds better than what Vampire: the Masquerade offered.

[Brad Grenz]

We'll have to put together Qt3 gaming sessions for the game. Less riff-raff that way.

Rob: If your videocard isn't integrated you might think about upgrading to a cheap GF2 level card. You can get a GeForce 2 GTS-V (better than the MX cards) from Newegg.com for $50 including shipping. You could get up to a Radeon 8500LE for $108 w/shipping. Either would be a pretty big step up from a TNT.

[Murph]

I agree with both of those -- especially about us getting together a server or two or something for those of us here to join together and journey with semi-trusted company. Gotta be better than wandering with some random people, although my experiences in the beta test were unquestionably positive. I didn't run into a single idiot.

[Alan Au]

I also get so much audio stutter during the cutscene movies as to make them unplayable. However, when I view them externally using the Bink video tools, they run just fine. Hmmm. That said, you could try viewing the cutscenes that way, assuming that they are standard Bink files as in the beta.

- Alan

[Murph]

That's good to know, Alan, as I have the same problem, but would love to watch them, at some point, to get the plot advancement.

[mtkafka]

Got my halfling monk to level 4 and am almost passed the prison areas... so far the game is good, but its lacking something, single player wise. I think I miss the party mechanics of the BG games most. Its odd how much flavor npc's made the BG games so fun.. even with IWD.

Anyway, besides that, the games been solid for me. No crashes or weird anomalies. The graphics are GREAT. I dont get how people think the graphics in this game are just okay. The spells look awesome, better than in MW and DS... actually they remind me of console effects from the likes of the Final Fantasy games. I like how the combat plays/feels like table pnp rpging... round for round. and the monk with cleave and flurry of blows is cool. he does his kicks and punches and every once in awhile a roundkick! it looks cool and plays cool.

And the toolset is VERY cool. Making basic maps in NWN is easier than making maps for a blizzard rts (which were already easy!). Solid game. Though looking at the number of tilesets... seems a little small. But im sure theres more to it.

etc

[Rob O'Boston]

Thanks guys. I guess this weekend just became 'Adventure into the Great White Box" to replace the video card. By integrated I hope you don't mean 'straight from Dell' because that's where I got it. I up'ed my RAM once on my own though, so I'm feeling like a master techie.

[Murph]

You're better off upgrading a Dell than most any other manufacturer's systems. HP is the worst. You should be fine.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Murph. Any recommends on decent websites for newbies/nontechies on how to go about this?

[Tyjenks]

I get the same stuttering sound/choppy video problems. Mine seem pretty random with my TNT2 card. However I do have an old VIA on-board soundcard to go along with my AMD 800mhz, 256MB RAM, WindowsME system. I am sure something simply needs more tweaking in there.

The opening movie went fine and then I got stuttering on the intro story. I installed latest 4-in-1 drivers and it was all fine. I played a bit and it started up in-game. I'll play for a while w/o a problem and then boom it acts up again. I am missing sumpthin'.

Great game though. A lot of little touches which I can remember none of specifically now that I am at work, of course.

I personally like being able to focus on one character. Not so much damn inventory management.

[Jason Lutes]

I'm enjoying the game, especially due to the 3rd edition D&D rules, which are much, much, much better than the 2nd, and integrate well with the game's design. I find the interface beautiful, and love the great variety of gameplay possibilites. I believe that NWN is a remarkable accomplishment in game design.

That being said, and in the spririt of the thread's subject heading, how about some *real* letdowns:

Character portraits. Matter of taste, but I hate 'em. Same guy who did the BG amd IWD games; accomplished artwork, but they're too specific for game purposes, and hence, a detraction when used on multiple NPCs. I know I can make my own, and I will, but I would have preferred something more in keeping with the nice "generic" look that otherwise permeates the game.

Overall coarseness. Everything feels really open and expansive, due to the inherent size of the toolkit paintbrushes. This is great when painting with broad strokes, and probably necessary when trying to include so many tilesets, but the lack of fine control is disppointing. It's impossible, for instance, to create something like a convincing city alleyway or narrow underground tunnel; the narrowest corridor can hold six characters abreast. You can place individual items, but as far as I can tell, they can't be stacked at all (for instance, you can't set a dagger on a tabletop).

Toolkit complexity. The ease of use of the toolkit has been drastically overstated (hence my disappointment). While it is easy enough to create a simple hack-and-slash module, implementing much more than this requires at least a basic grasp of C. I bought the (extremely helpful) "Official Worldbuilder Guide," and am now trying to get a handle on the scripting language in order to make an interesting module. The scripting tools are indeed incredibly robust, but to really understand them I would need to take a programming class. I was hoping for something a little more end-user, layperson-friendly, since this was such a highly-touted aspect of the game.

All the usual game-bashing/game-loving caveats apply to the above.

[Greenie]

I personally like being able to focus on one character. Not so much damn inventory management.

I agree, with BG2 I didn't feel like I really had one character, I had to manage the whole party and I kind of missed having the focus on my "own" character. The hirelings in NWN seems pretty balanced between having enough personality to feel like part of the party but not to where you have to micromanage their resources, attacks, etc. I laughed the first time I heard Tomi's post-death speech! (Although I wasn't laughing so hard after about the 3rd time I respawned and heard it...)

NWN has beautiful graphics! FWIW, I also have the same stuttering video/audio problems on the cutscenes as everyone else. Seems strange since the game itself runs very well on my appx. 1-year outdated computer (1GhZ Athlon, 512MB RAM, Radeon 7200, SB Audigy.)

[Ben Sones]

You can place individual items, but as far as I can tell, they can't be stacked at all (for instance, you can't set a dagger on a tabletop).

Place the item on the ground next to the table, then hold down the Alt key and move it under the table. The item should "pop" up on top of the table (or anything else that you move it over).

The toolset has a learning curve, granted, but I think this is about as easy as it gets. Complex behaviors require complex scripting. Of course you could always say "screw the scripting" and juggle things manually as a DM. That's what I plan to do for some of the more complicated behaviors I have planned. It's just easier that way.

But I am trying to learn the scripting language, too. There are actually plenty of scripts already; what we need is a comprehensive encyclopedia describing what each one does.

[Anonymous]

Okay, got NWN yesterday after trading in a bunch of games I'll never play again; got enough credit to get the $54.95 NWN and the Strat Guide (the Game strat guide, not the World Builder strat guide), and only had to pay $15.

Love the implementation of the 3rd Edition rules. Yanked my 3rd Edition books off the shelf for reference...

Graphics... mixed results... I'm still not a big fan of 3D RPG's ala Dungeon Siege and NWN... it really feels like you lose a lot of gorgeous 2D detail for relatively blocky graphics. And I've got a P3 850, a Gig of RAM, and a GeForceTi 4400 card, so I'm playing with max detail at 800x600 and the damn thing kinda stutters when I move my character around. Like I'll click the mouse; the game will pause for a fraction of a second, and then my character will warp forward a few steps. It's like the game is spending so much time calculating the path.

Pathfinding is kinda attrocious; I find my companions will get stuck, but then warp back to the party. In some cases, they don't warp back, which means I have to go back the way I came and collect them again.

Only been playing for a couple hours though, just entered the Peninsula district. My companions are overly aggressive though; I'm playing a Druid and I'm having to keep up with my Wolf and my NPC party member because they keep running ahead and getting into battles, but as soon as they take out one bad guy, they see another in the distance and take off again. That's annoying, because my party is getting seperated too easily.

[Xaroc]

One thing you might want to try for the stuttering sound is turning the audio slider down a notch in the control panel.

As for the game itself it is nice. I actually had a friend buy it yesterday and loan in to me for the night because he had something else to do! The graphics are sweet, the gameplay is similar to BG other than having a single character, and I like the right click interface. The portraits are god awful, I never liked them. They look like real people who are dressed up to go to the ren-fair or something. Too realisitc is a bad thing in a fantasy game.

-- Xaroc

[Jason Lutes]

Thanks for the "Alt" tip, Ben -- that should help a lot. Re: scripting, my rig/connection isn't fit to host a live game, so if I want to design a module for people to play, I have to be able to do everything I want to with scripts. Alas.


Pathfinding is kinda attrocious; I find my companions will get stuck, but then warp back to the party. In some cases, they don't warp back, which means I have to go back the way I came and collect them again.

Only been playing for a couple hours though, just entered the Peninsula district. My companions are overly aggressive though; I'm playing a Druid and I'm having to keep up with my Wolf and my NPC party member because they keep running ahead and getting into battles, but as soon as they take out one bad guy, they see another in the distance and take off again. That's annoying, because my party is getting seperated too easily.

Completely agree on both of these points. Even on the "stay close" setting, henchmen will charge across the map as soon as they see a hostile. Maybe "guard me" is the way to go?

[Tyjenks]

The portraits are god awful, I never liked them. They look like real people who are dressed up to go to the ren-fair or something. Too realisitc is a bad thing in a fantasy game.

-- Xaroc

Thaaaaaaaat's the problem. Something did get on my nerves about them and now that we get too see approx. the same portraits for the 3rd time or so it is getting pretty tired.

[Anonymous]

overly-agressive sidekicks: This was more of a problem in a couple areas than in most others. The prison riots was some of the worst. But you can always use the radial menu on thir portrait and say "follow" and they'll come back. Set them to "guard me" and they'll run off a lot less.

scripting and the toolset: Grabbing the World Builder's Guide and starting with that as a basis of making an adventure is going to maybe give you the wrong idea. It goes into a lot of scripting detail, which is great, but it's not totally needed. Between wizards and already-made scripts, you can easily do branching conversations and plot points and "say this if they have done that" type of things.

Yes, the toolset does have a lot of complexity, mostly in the interface. It needs good documentation, more tooltips, and some basic tutorials/guides online. But it's not as complex as the WBG would have you believe. They show you how to do by hand a lot of things you won't necessarily need to.

Qt3 server: anyone got the rig/bandwidth to set up a server and leave it running? With a password, of course? Or maybe just run it at set times? (8pm to 8am or whatever) I think it's a great idea. We could vote in here about which modules it should run, and when.

I don't want to play Chapter 1 with my level 13 Fighter/rogue (7/6). :wink:

[Bub, Andrew]

NWN's portraits are all new, but it has to be the same artist. I'm not a big fan of that "realism" style either, but then I much prefer Frazetta's brushstrokes to Boris' models any day. Icewind Dale used a different artist BTW, those portraits were grittier, I liked those.

That said Soule delivers once again on the musical front!

[Tom Ohle]

These portraits were done by several different artists--some that worked on the BG series, and others that didn't... My likes and dislikes vary by artist, really... There are a few portraits I really like... but a fair number that I hate. Most of the elven ones are cool, I think.

[Aszurom]

I think Dwarves and especially Gnomes got the shaft +1. Can't find a decent pic of either.

I need to fiddle with module creation and the DM client a little - then I'll be ready to say thumbs up/down. However, given how much of my C64 time was spent on the "Adventure Construction Kit" I'm sure I'll find it worth the time.

[Anonymous]

That said Soule delivers once again on the musical front!

True, but MY GOD, if you're making a 60+ hour RPG, you've just GOT to make it a stipulation that there will be 3 or 4 different combat music tracks. The one combat track in there got really old hours and hours ago, and I'm not near the end yet.

[noun]

Heh, Jason, I'm glad you mentioned that. One of the (many) things I dug about Wizardry 8 was that it had three different combat music tracks. The more dangerous the combat, the more intense the music.

[mtkafka]

Oh yeah the guy who did Wizardry 8 music also did the music for BG2 and Sacrifice. Kevin Manthei i think. Yeah he does great combat music... actually thats one part where I think Jeremy Soule lacks. Sorta.

etc

[Rob O'Boston]

I finally got back into the game after completely screwing up my system. I tried to update my sound drivers, and like the luddite I am I basically just fucked everything up for 2 days. I couldn't even open windows for awhile. But I'm back to square one now, and just played a bit more. I took my half-orc ranger into the zombie part of town. I really like how the NPCs don't like me for being half orcish.

However, the game still stutters too much. I'm taking Dave Long's, Brad Grenz's, and Ben Sones' advice and buying a new video card. Its gonna be a nightmare trying to plug it in, but what the hell. If anyone reads this this morning, I would appreciate any recommends. I'm looking at the GTS-V card and the Radeon 8500LE cards based on Brad's recommend from the first page. I have a Dell with a TNT2 card right now.

[wumpus]

How much are you budgeting for the video card? I'd recommend spending up a little bit since the card can be plugged into any new system you buy at a later date. I'd avoid ATI, particularly since there are Catalyst video driver issues with the Radeon and NWN right now. What a surprise! Not!

The GeForce 4 Ti 4200 starts at ~$150. This is my recommended card for you. Huge bang for the buck, and should remain competitive speed and feature wise for about 2 years.

If that's over your budget, the GeForce 3 Ti 200 starts at ~$100.

I wouldn't dip lower than that, because you won't be buying a card you would want to use in the future.

I always recommend http://www.newegg.com for new hardware purchases. Shop by category "video card", then pick the video chipset you're interested.

[Aszurom]

I have discovered the map's usefulness...

Cleans a monitor - NO STREAKS

[Bub, Andrew]

Does Nvidia make a TV IN/OUT card yet? (I'm finding lots of TV out cards from them). I'm using a Radeon because I prefer playing Xbox games back here in my office (makes screenshot snapping a ... snap... too). I'd like to move away from ATI but I won't sacrifice my ability to play console games back here in my Aeron chair (f* the couch).

[Aszurom]

Yes, althought I've heard it's not as good as the Radeon for capture purposes. It uses a breakout box similar to the Radeon, but I think there's more of the functionality in the actual box itself than the card. At least that's how it appeared. I considered retiring my RAIW for one of these (visiontek makes them) but considering that it's like a GEforce 2 MX card, I can't see gaming on it.

[Rob O'Boston]

Thanks Wumpus! I would use newegg if I wasn't an instantgratificator. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Bub, Andrew]

Actually Aszurom, I don't have an AIW. I have the lesser known and harder to find 64MB Radeon TV IN/OUT. It has no break out box, instead it just has jacks on the card itself that lets you connect our AV equipment. It's great for this purpose, very convenient, and that's why I'd hate to lose it. Fortunately the Radeon 7000 series is pretty good graphically still, and the XP drivers work fine with games other ATI owners say the card doesn't work with.

I'm happy with the card, but I'm enough of a power gamer to know I could have better graphics if I tried.

[Rob O'Boston]

Wumpus, I love you.

Ahem, er, anyway, I got the Geforce 4, and now NEVERWINTER ROCKS!!!!! Its all smooth and glisteny and shadowy and the water and light effects aren't a slide show. The new video card is 'making' this game incredible.

I didn't get the exact model you recommended, but hopefully it was a suitable substitute: GeForce 4 MMX 440. It wasn't all that cheap, but I'm so happy with the results so far. The driver setup was a nightmare, with me clicking stuff left and right blindly (not on purpose, it was just screwy), so I was shocked when everything seemed to work. The game still skips, burps, teleports me, and stutters, when it loads up a map, sometimes for as long as a minute on a big level, but then it seems to finish loading the map, and off I go, fairly smooth and with a high fps. I'm just happy the adventure into the white box had a happy ending.

And I'm really warming up to NWN now. My half-orc ranger is fun to play, and the possibilities with the game seem boundless. Ok, I'm going back in...

Thanks again Jeff! :D

[wumpus]

Great-- glad to hear your +5 video card of power installed OK.

The Geforce 4 MX 440 is an OK choice. It's easily going to be an order of magnitude faster than your ancient TNT2. That's one, two, three, four generations of video cards you just hopped. Wow.

The MX is certainly fast on existing games and relatively inexpensive. And you get solid nVidia driver quality (you can always download the latest drivers from http://www.nvidia.com -- there is a single driver for all nVidia cards) which is important. But, in the interests of full disclosure, the MX series doesn't support those whizzy pixel shaders that the GeForce3 and GeForce 4 Titanium do.

It may not matter for the forseeable future, but just so you know. My recommendation is still the GeForce 4 Ti 4200.

[Tom Ohle]

Also... with a GeForce3+ card, you'll get one effect that isn't available on any other cards: shiny water.

[DennyA]

Actually, the GeForce4 MX series is sort of a GeForce2 Ultra with some GF4 features. Given the Ti4200 has all the features of a Ti4600 for $150, it's a MUCH better value per dollar. (Quick, Rob, back to the store for an exchange!)

Nvidia's created an interesting conundrum here... The GF4 Ti4200 will run just about EVERY current game at a super-speedy rate. The only thing the Ti4600 buys you is headroom for future games. But by the time you see any games that will really use that headroom, the next-generation Nvidia and ATI DX9 cards will be available and the kind of person who'd drop $300+ on a Ti4600 would be wanting to upgrade again anyway.

Andrew, Gainward makes a GeForce4 Ti card with Video in/out.

Jason, as far as a QT3 NWN server goes, I could probably do it. I have a second P3/1000 rig that I leave on 24/7 as a "Tivo" for my office. I'd think it would still have the CPU bandwidth to act as an NWN server even when it's recording...

Of course, I don't have NWN yet, so that's a problem. :cry:

[Alan Au]

I've been told not to waste my money on the GeForce 4 MX series cards, as they are comparable in performance to the cheaper GeForce 3 Ti series.

- Alan

[James Galimo]

I can sum it up in one word: Minsc.

I think I might re-install BG2 to see if I can move the sound files for his character over to NWN. And then try to recreate him. It may be possible, I'll have to work on it. It might be fun to do a whole module with him: The Adventures of Minsc.


"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!"

Admit it, you've been missing him too. :wink:

[Tyjenks]

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!"

Admit it, you've been missing him too. :wink:

Hehe... Minsc...that guy's voice was terrific :!:

[Rob O'Boston]

Um, I could go back to the store. I have 30 days I think. I might order the TI 4200 through newegg, and bring the MX back to the store. I found inserting and setting up the card fairly do-able, so I might as well.

And Tom, I can't get the shiny water, so I'm guessing the mx really is more of a gforce 2.

[Murph]

That's what I've heard: The chipset is technically GF4, but for all practical purposes, it runs about like a GF2 Ultra or so. I'm always skeptical when I see the lastest generation of chipset too cheap. :)

Of course, now they're talking about a GF4 Ti 4200 for $150? Great news. Just can't beat that price.

[DennyA]

Murph,

Actually, Nvidia's marketing department should be ashamed for calling both boards "GeForce4." (They really should have come up with Celeron/Pentium- or Duron/Athlon-style names.) The MX chipset isn't really "technically GF4." It's not DirectX 8.1 compliant, and it lacks the Ti series' hardware pixel and vertex shaders. It does have the improved anti-aliasing engine and some speed improvements, but it's a very different chipset from the Ti.

This perhaps wasn't as big a deal when the MX boards were $175 down to under $100 and the Ti4400 and Ti4600 boards were $300 to $400. It was pretty obvious even to those who hadn't read up on the technology that a board that cost twice as much would have a better feature set.

But now if you go to CompUSA you'll find the MX440 boards running $129 to $149, and a Ti4200 card going for $179. Because they both have the GF4 name, many users who don't live and breathe AnandTech and HardOCP don't realize how much that extra $30 to $50 buys them.

[Rob O'Boston]

My card says it is Dx8.1 compliant.

I would have bought the TI if the place I went to had it. But I needed the quick fix.

Again, compared to my former life, this is heaven.

[DennyA]

It's DX8.1 complaint in that there are DX 8.1 drivers available for it. But it doesn't support all the features of DX 8.1.

Oh, you made the right decision to get the quick fix. :-) We're just saying you'll be happier long-term with a Ti4200...

[Anonymous]

I hate Nvidia for their GeForce4 naming convention; and I hate that it won't totally bite them in the ass because they're going to roll out their next-generation chip soon, based on an all new architecture, and the odds are that they're going to come up with another new gimmicky marketing name, so GeForce cofusion will fade out of the picture.

The GeForce4 MX is basically a spruced up GeForce2 Ultra. It is DirectX 8.1 compliant in the same way the GeForce2 Ultra is DirectX 8.1 compliant; they both have drivers that support DirectX 8.1. However, the GeForce4 MX does not support all of the functions of DirectX 8.1 (the pixel shader and the vertex shaders, namely), because it doesn't have those functions on the hardware. Those two things are crucial, because that's how you get some pretty amazing effects.

If you had to choose between an GeForce4 MX and a GeForce 3, go for the 3. If you have a little more coin, get the GeForce4 Ti 4200, 4400, or the 4600. Top of the line (currently) with full-featured DX8.1 support, and the 4200 won't break your budget either.

[Anonymous]

they are supposed to be adjusting the geforce 4 mx cards in later versions to give full compatibility. For the meantime, the 4200 is a great option. I've actually been able to run morrowind with all features maxed and 4x aa on, looks incredible.

[Anonymous]

they are supposed to be adjusting the geforce 4 mx cards in later versions to give full compatibility. For the meantime, the 4200 is a great option.

I agree that the 4200 is a great option. Bang > buck for sure on that one.

But don't hold your breath about the GF4 MX line getting pixel shaders any time soon. They have a kinda-sort vertex shader "assist" in hardware: vertex shaders are done on the host CPU just like with every video card that doesn't have them in hardware, but they have a little silicon that offloads some of the end of the process and makes it a little faster.

But there's no silicon to handle pixel shaders in the NV17 chip. And it's not something you can fake in drivers.

[GMicek]

So, i joined in and picked up NWN this past weekend and have enjoyed it so far. Only problems i've seen so far is that the auto update thing doesnt work. Says something about it being the wrong version. It also seems like there is something missing in regards to the graphics. They seem flat. And last night i found out that my savegame might be corrupt or something. When i go to the load screen the bottom half of the savegame picture looks corrupted and when i try to load it the game just boots back to the desktop.

It's all pretty strange. I'm running 98se on an AMD XP1800+, 512ddr ram, GForce 4 ti4600 (128meg) and a 120 gig maxtor 7200rpm harddrive, so i don't think it's a system requirements thing. And I just formatted and reinstalled everything about a week ago. I'm sure the problems i'm having can be fixed pretty easily, i'm just too lazy at this point.

Ahh well, i've been playing Freekstyle for the PS2 quite a bit, so that dulls the pain.

[Supertanker]

Only problems i've seen so far is that the auto update thing doesnt work. Says something about it being the wrong version.

There is a patch for the patcher. Install that, then run the autopatcher, and that will update you to v. 1.18. I got it at Fileplanet, but I suspect you can find it elsewhere, and there is a separate patch for the game if you don't/can't use the autoupdate.

[GMicek]

There is a patch for the patcher. Install that, then run the autopatcher, and that will update you to v. 1.18. I got it at Fileplanet, but I suspect you can find it elsewhere, and there is a separate patch for the game if you don't/can't use the autoupdate.

Cool. Thanks for the tip, i'll check it out!

[Bub, Andrew]

This seems to be the place....

Ok. I'm disappointed in the NWN singleplayer. Not in the storyline... Bioware excells, as always, at using AD&D (I'm oldschool) monsters well and creating interesting quests and situations. NICE use of an Intellect Devourer, for example. I like the graphics engine fine and find it baffling that people are complaining. I'm ambivalent about the Stone of Recall, it's too Diablo for me and given the amount of conversation this isn't a Diablo style game. The combat is cool to watch, at first, then just gets a bit annoying. Long and drawn out at times. But mainly I'm ho-hum about the gameplay.

Why? I'm playing a Paladin and my henchman is that Priest chick, a good team if a bit too heavy on the healing. Why can't I hire more than one Henchman? I have the money.... I want a party.

That's what's missing. The old squabbling "Do my quest now!" BG party. I miss Minsc, I miss my evil mage arguing with that stupid Priest. I miss Viconia. I miss managing them RTS style. I'm not having as much fun with this control one player thing. The upshot is I'm really looking forward to Icewind Dale 2 now.

I know, if I had friends to play with online I'd like it better. Right?

Terrific game, don't get me wrong, just venting on some mild disappointment here.

Oh, one more thing, is the double bladed weapons a D&D 3E thing or is it a Bioware thing? Because it's fucking silly. A double bladed axe wouldn't work well as a weapon at all. An axe requires heft, like a sledge hammer, grab a sledge hammer and imagine another head on it. Try to weild it like that. Wouldn't work. Neither would a double bladed sword. Darth Maul aside, and he used his as a lite-weight double bladed staff (a Japanese weapon, and one that's only good against NON ARMORED OPPONENTS).

I know D&D isn't real but there's a reason Europe never made double bladed axes and swords, the weilder would die quickly.

EDIT CAVEAT: I'm only done with the first quest here. I did the Penninsula District. So I'm knee-jerk judging at the moment. Thought I better add that now...

[Tom Chick]

So Bub is disappointed with Neverwinter Nights because:

a) he can't play it with a party like Baldur's Gate, and

b) double-bladed weapons are "unrealistic".

Gotcha.

Personally, I'm disappointed because a) I can't lead an army like they do in Myth and b) it's unrealistic that characters don't belch after swigging a potion. Can't Bioware get anything right?

-Tom

[Jason Becker]

I guess developers will never win. You see posts complaining of the stagnation in gaming. The same old FPS...the same old RTS. Then when a dev trys something new what do you get? "Why isn't it like Baldur's Gate....why can't I do it like BG..."

[Martinez]

The double bladed weapons are a 3ed creation. I agree that it's silly. There's a double headed pick-axe or something in the core rule book. If you look at it, when you swing the weapon, the spike of one end will go right through your own forearm.

[Bub, Andrew]

I guess developers will never win. You see posts complaining of the stagnation in gaming. The same old FPS...the same old RTS. Then when a dev trys something new what do you get? "Why isn't it like Baldur's Gate....why can't I do it like BG..."

Jason, of course devs will never win! Jeez! But setting aside the fact that in every way *except* the lack of a party the NWN single player plays exactly like Baldur's Gate, what exactly does THE SINGLE PLAYER GAME do that's revolutionary? Sure, you can use new content and all that, that's very cool and revolutionary, but other than that, in single player terms NWN is pretty much exactly like playing BG only here you can't have a party.

In that regard, and only that regard, what did they do here that's "new"? They made it more like Diablo and Dungeon Siege? Is that new? Hey, I'm all for devs trying to do something "new" but I'm playing what amounts to the sequel to BG2. Why can't I miss some things I liked about BG2?

That said, let me repeat that I admire the new stuff. The tools, the multiplayer, the creation, etc., I'm only judging the single player here. And only complaining mildly.

And the double bladed weapons are unrealistic, yes. But what I actually said was that they were "fucking silly". I'm happy to hear Bioware didn't invent them (because they're fucking silly) and grant that if they're part of 3E, Bioware had to use them or some rabid D&D fans would jet up to Canada.

[Ben Sones]

Jason, of course devs will never win! Jeez! But setting aside the fact that in every way *except* the lack of a party the NWN single player plays exactly like Baldur's Gate, what exactly does THE SINGLE PLAYER GAME do that's revolutionary?

That's not really the point, though. The multiplayer part of the game is very revolutionary, and the single player game is the way it is (single-character) because of the multiplayer game. The game is designed to be played like a tabletop game, with a party of other players. Each player controls one character. You can also play the game solo, but still only with one character. Adding a player-controlled party dynamic to the solo portion of the game would be like designing a whole new game. I can't really fault BioWare for not doing that.

[Supertanker]

I agree the double-bladed weapons are silly, but maybe they serve as a sort of barometer. If someone is using one, then they are probably a min/maxer or some other style of player I don't like, so I know not to play with them.

How do you get any leverage with those double-bladed swords, anyway? Even leather armor would be too much for them.

[Bub, Andrew]

"Adding a player-controlled party dynamic to the solo portion of the game would be like designing a whole new game. I can't really fault BioWare for not doing that."

If it's built to handle multiple players played by multiple humans beings, right? And they added the ability to have one henchman in single player. So, why can't I have two henchmen? Or three? Or five? How would that be like designing a whole new game?

I'm genuinely curious Ben. I know you're knee deep in the scripting and module creation, and I'm also aware I'm at the very beginning of the single player game, so I bet you have a clearer perspective than I do right now.

One of the things I was looking forward to with NWN wasn't playing online with friends or even the DM client. I can rarely get friends together to do anything online, and most of my friends don't have broadband or aren't gamers. What I was looking forward to was basically a D&D construction set. A way to get all kinds of new single player content for a game system I like. Since, thus far, I'm not so thrilled playing by myself I'm disappointed to see that dream die.

(Oh FYI, at E3 I had a conversation with Dr. Ray, he told me you could fall in love with your henchmen. So, if you liked that aspect of BG2, pick a henchman accordingly.)

[Bub, Andrew]

How do you get any leverage with those double-bladed swords, anyway? Even leather armor would be too much for them.

The Japanese are famous for these kinds of weapons actually. They're pretty much the only culture that developed them and used them. Mainly double spears or a spear with a hook or chain at the end. Useless against armor unless you're stabbing. In a stab you'd have enough leverage, but again, a double bladed sword the way they did the artwork is much more dangerous to the weilder than his foe. How can choke up on it for the thrust?

Darth Maul's weapon would work because the cutting power of a Lightsaber, presumably, doesn't require leverage or power. So you could use that Quarter Staff style, which Ray Park did, and use it effectively.

[Tom Chick]

Bub wrote: But setting aside the fact that in every way *except* the lack of a party the NWN single player plays exactly like Baldur's Gate

Jesus, Bub, you've got to be kidding. Have you even *played* Neverwinter Nights? Aside from the enormous difference 3E makes, have you completely missed the impact of the new engine and gameplay mechanics?


Ben wrote: Adding a player-controlled party dynamic to the solo portion of the game would be like designing a whole new game.

Yep, and it's already been done. It was called Dungeon Siege.

This sort of criticism really bugs me, when a player second guesses the developer and takes a game to task for not being more like what the player wanted rather than the developer set out to create. Bub, I hope you don't plan on harping on any of this stuff in an official, uhh, "review".

Besides, if you're so hot under the collar for a party game, play a wizard with a familiar, hire a henchman, and summon a creature. Sheesh, if four characters isn't a party, I don't know what is.

Personally, I prefer the focus of a single character. And I couldn't care less whether double-bladed weapons are realistic. I suppose next you're going to tell me there's no such thing as an elf, the world isn't built from blocks no bigger than 32x32 tiles, and respawning isn't a realistic portrayal of what happens when you die.

-Tom

[Mark Asher]

"Personally, I prefer the focus of a single character."

I do too. One inventory to manage, one character to nurture and level and focus on -- I prefer this to juggling an entire party.

[Bub, Andrew]

Tom Chick: "Have you even *played* Neverwinter Nights? ...Bub, I hope you don't plan on harping on any of this stuff in an official, uhh, "review"." :roll:

You're stooping lower than a halfling's ass here Tom.

Let me clarify. I don't really want to control an entire party like Baldur's Gate. I mean, I understand that NWN was designed to not work in the same way as an RTS game does (and the BG series does). I accept that you'd need a whole new game and engine to bring it back to BG.

So, I don't mind playing one character. Managing one inventory, etc., But that doesn't mean you can't have a party. Meaning: I wonder why I can't hire more than one henchman, because, Bioware always excelled in making vivid characters who would bicker, fight, and more. It seperated their games from the Diablos of the world. It added a lot to the single player game and helped simulate D&D in a single player way. NWN is missing it completely and I think that's bad because D&D isn't a solo-game. So if you're going to simulate D&D it helps to simulate the "party" as much as possible. There's no reason why you can't achieve that within the NWN engine. If you'd played more of the BG series, you might miss it too.

"Yep, and it's already been done. It was called Dungeon Siege."

No, DS was missing this too. To it's detriment in my opinion. 6-8 bland characters are actually more boring than 1.

The other thing is that I wonder if the single henchman deal is hard coded. Can't I make a module that would involve multiple henchmen per player? I'd love to make one where you have to escort a old married couple, perpetually complaining about video games. Can you assign scripts to Henchmen?

If not, that, imo, limits the single player potential a bit.

[Ben Sones]

No, I tried it. The JoinAsHenchman function (or whatever it's called--I don't have my list in front of me currently) only works on one henchman at a time. If you already have one, it returns false and nothing happens.

I imagine they did this, again, for multiplayer reasons. In the solo game, it doesn't matter much if you have five henchmen walking around with you. In the multiplayer game you have all the human players (and their henchmen) too, though, and there has to be a logical limit on how many characer portraits you can cram on the right hand side of the screen... ;)

I agree with Bub that it would have been nice to have more henchmen, but since the henchman script itself is so trivially easy to use, I assume that there is a good reason why they don't allow it. It doesn't make me like the game any less, though. Yeah, it's not like Baldur's Gate, and BG does some things better. But NWN also does a bunch of stuff that BG doesn't, and all things considered, I rather like the stuff on the NWN side of the equation...

[Bub, Andrew]

I imagine they did this, again, for multiplayer reasons. In the solo game, it doesn't matter much if you have five henchmen walking around with you. In the multiplayer game you have all the human players (and their henchmen) too, though, and there has to be a logical limit on how many characer portraits you can cram on the right hand side of the screen... ;)...

Yeah, it occured to me how crazy it would be in multi. I just expected it in single player.


It doesn't make me like the game any less, though...

Me neither. ;)
Just this thread is called "The Official NWN Letdown Thread" that (and the fucking silly double bladed weapons) are my only official letdowns.

[Erik]

have you completely missed the impact of the new engine

Do you mean the 3d graphics engine? What's the impact of that? Since the game is still viewed from an elevated 3rd person perspective and takes place on more or less an Infinity Engine style 2-d plane, the new 3d engine just means I have to manually move the camera around a lot. If that's the impact you mean, then I'm right there with you. Except I'm not convinced that it's impactful in a good way. Even though I can make them spin in circles, the environments just don't look as detailed as those in bg/bg2/IWD. If you're going to sacrifice graphical quality and variety for 3d-ness, the 3d should at least impact gameplay in some small way.

That's my only complaint, though, other than this next one: I wish you could still move your little elf guy by clicking on the mini-map.

[Tom Chick]

As a wizard with a familiar, summoned creature, and henchman, I'm very glad they didn't make this a party-oriented game. As it is, I have a hard enough time getting around in this mob of four (hello, pathfinding, anyone home?). And I'm sure glad they're not hard-coded characters bickering at each other. Sure, it was cute in Baldur's Gate and it added a lot of flavor. But that's obviously not part of the NWN design.

You guys sound like this fellow (http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=92): "I want the ability to 'zoom in' to my character's head and see the world from a first person perspective," he complains.

Sheesh, I'd love for the game to come to my house, cook me dinner, and read me a bedtime story. C'mon Bioware! Slackers!

If we're going to pick nits (eww!), I have to say I'm disappointed at how little of the toolset's power is displayed in the single player campaign. Rather than this one big campaign, I would have rather seen more smaller modules that showed off the engine's different capabilities (e.g. Contest of Champions). But I'm sure they'll be rolling out any day now. Right, Denny? Jason? :)

-Tom

[Bub, Andrew]

TomChick: "You guys sound like this fellow: "I want the ability to 'zoom in' to my character's head and see the world from a first person perspective," he complains."

Funny, Mark Asher had exactly the same complaint about Sid Meier's Sim Golf.

Erik, Tom's right. Now that I think about it, the 3D engine has had a tremendous impact on me. I have to play in a lower resolution because it doesn't like my ATI card. (And I agree about the mini-map... but you can't do that in Diablo either.)

[Tom Ohle]

If you really don't like the isometric view, go with the follow cam. I'm actually under the impression that the game looks even better from that view... depends, though... get to the rural areas so you can see some grass... I love that stuff.

[Thierry Nguyen]

I was annoyed by the one-person control at first, but I soon got past it. As Tom (Chick) pointed out, the summons and stuff help make up the slack. My druid has a summoned Dire Wolf, her Spider friend, and Tomi following her around at this point.

Also, follow cam is good for screenshot purposes. The grass looks DAMN FINE. Like in KOTOR as well. Charwood and Creator Ruins look beautiful in follow cam.

[Tom Chick]

Erik,

I find it's easy to play without having to muck around with the camera. I'm in the habit of tapping the KP* to toggle between chase cam and driving cam for different situations. In combat, especially when I'm attacking things farther off, the driving cam gives me a bit more range by dropping the perspective down lower. But for situational awareness and searching rooms, I pop back into chase cam. The camera drops behind me either way and I almost never have to fuss with it.

As for not being able to play from the 1st person view, which Bub seems to think Mark Asher wants to do, I suspect that's partly the limitation of the engine, no? If you could see along a horizontal plane, I imagine the system requirements would get pretty high in larger rooms.

-Tom

[Ben Sones]

That and the fact that the entire world--all the tilesets--are designed to be viewed isometrically. There is no sky, for instance. A few people on the BioWare forums were complaining about how easy it would have been to add a first-person view. They obviously didn't think it through very well; that would be like seating the audience in a 360-degree circle around a 2D set designed to be viewed from the front.

I went to the trouble to set up all the camera movement keys to the keyboard (orbit, pan up, pan down... kept zoom in and out on the mouse wheel, though), only to discover that none of it is really necessary. In practice, I always keep the camera panned down to the lowest angle (so you can see far in the direction you are facing), and rotate by moving the mouse to the edge of the screen. It works just fine.

The game also runs fine on my aging (nearly years old, although I did add a GeForce 3 and 512 MB RAM along the way) system, too. I run it at 1280x960 with 2x antialiasing on, 64 MB textures, and all the details cranked. My framerate is quite smooth.

[James Galimo]

The one thing I'm wondering about are the Dragons. Now, I assume there will be at least one dragon. Right? I mean, I've already gone through a number of dungeons. So, being D&D, there should be a dragon in there at some point. So, my question is this:

How am I supposed to vanquish a dragon by myself?

Even with one henchman, under 2nd ed. rules it couldn't be done. In BG2, it took my whole damn party to take out one black dragon. Are you really that powerful when you get to lvl. 17-20 in 3rd ed.? Perhaps I'm assuming too much. Maybe there aren't any dragon. Has anyone played all the way through yet? Greg? You must have beaten it already. I read your review. (Nice work by the way.)

"Butt-kicking for goodness!"

-Minsc

Oh, and a dual-axe wielding half-orc is no replacement for a lunatic Ranger with a space hamster.

[Thierry Nguyen]

I fought three dragons. One, I used a shitload of buffs and had dragon-fighting equipment on, and the other two, I had items that severely weakened them. Though, the last one (starts with a K), was a total bitch to fight, even after being weakened to "Near Death." Then again, maybe it was just me.

[Bub, Andrew]

I find it's easy to play without having to muck around with the camera. For situational awareness and searching rooms, I pop back into chase cam. The camera drops behind me either way and I almost never have to fuss with it.

I use a force feedback steering wheel myself.


As for not being able to play from the 1st person view, which Bub seems to think Mark Asher wants to do, I suspect that's partly the limitation of the engine, no? If you could see along a horizontal plane, I imagine the system requirements would get pretty high in larger rooms.

Fuck first person view. I can't imagine why Tom Chick keeps harping on it. So screw First Person in NWN, Deus Ex, or even D&D golf games. I cut my teeth on Ultima and have preferred isometric or top down perspectives ever since. I hear the D&D crowd is giving Bioware a lot of crap about dragons not being able to fly too. I'd only be pissed if they used double bladed axes myself, who cares if they can fly? What would that add save draco-dung on the statuary?

Judging from the anecdotes here I shouldn't be playing a Paladin. I like playing a tank but I'm dying an awful lot... plus I'd like to be able to summon some friends to keep me company. I can use funny voices to make my familiar bicker with my henchman, or make them fall in love.

[Matthew Beaver]

How am I supposed to vanquish a dragon by myself?


Well, if you're a fighter, you cheat like crazy. Use that recall stone right before you bite it and all that. Heal up, get your follower back and resummon some cannon fodder, then back into the fray. I very nearly killed the green one w/o recalling, but the blue one required a couple recalls and the red one required a lot. Maybe magical characters can buff their character and henchmen enough to stand up to one long enough to kill it, but I couldn't stand toe to toe with the red dragon for long enough to even knock it down one status grade.


Spoiler
.
.
.
.

Thank god for the item that weakens it to badly wounded. Anyone kill this thing from scratch?

-Matthew

[mtkafka]

I would have preferred a first person mode. Yes, I am insane!

BTW< I'm with Bub, I miss the BG party modes. DnD was built for parties. I know it would have changed the design a bit, but I still think they could have at least allowed the option to control the inventory of your henchman. You could even do that in the Fallouts!

etc

[Wholly Schmidt]

As I recall, when you buy a D&D book off the shelf it doesn't come with friends for you to play with. The Baldurs Gate games seemed to me like a very specific adventure Bioware crafted was DMing for you, while NWN is a game designed to put the control into your hands with an adventure thrown in to show off the game for you. I imagine they could have included a bunch of quirky characters for you like the BG games, but at the risk of trying to assume what their goal was, it doesn't seem like that was their plan.

Anyway, I don't mind the lack of a party.

[mtkafka]

Don't get me wrong, I still really like the game! I think the graphics are great and the 3e implementation is spot on. So I'm not complaining either. I can understand the no party option. But like Isaid before, I wish I could have more control over my henchman in regards to controlling inventory.

etc

[Desslock]

>That and the fact that the entire world--all the tilesets--are designed to be viewed isometrically. There is no sky, for instance.

Yep - the big change between the Neverwinter engine (which evolved from the MDK2 engine) and the Knights of the Old Republic iteration is moving the camera angle down to permit "landscape" views.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Oh wow, it'd been so long since I'd heard anything about the Neverwinter engine coming from the Omen engine (that was the MDK2 engine, right?) I was begining to think I'd imagined it.

[Desslock]

>I'd heard anything about the Neverwinter engine coming from the Omen engine (that was the MDK2 engine, right?)

That's right. It's obviously been significantly revised for Neverwinter and Knights of the Old Republic, but it's the same core engine.

[Rob O'Boston]

As the original poster who felt 'letdown' I really have to say that I'm enjoying this game more and more every time I play. I'm only cleaning out the prison right now, but I'm sure enjoying it (the zombie town is cleared out already).

Using DS as a baseline, which I think is appropriate because the games are so damn similar in style, I would say that NWN is exceeding DS in every phase. I sure don't miss the 8 man gang of strangers I was using in that game. I really appreciate the genuine "my guy", and the henchmen I've used are great. A bit of dialogue goes a long way, just ask the guy who keeps quoting Minsc.

The graphics are terrific in both games, but I like NWN even more. They just seem sharper and more interesting. Then again, I haven't played DS with my new video card.... Maybe thats a poor comparison.

And, currently, NWN is easily as fun as DS at the number of hours I had put in. I was able to stay awake for 12ish hours for DS, and I'm about 6 hours into NWN. I was liking DS quite a bit at that point. But the two games are going in two different directions. My NWN enthusiasm is ramping up, while my DS enthusiasm was waning. At least that is how it feels right now.

[Anonymous]

As the original poster who felt 'letdown' I really have to say that I'm enjoying this game more and more every time I play. I'm only cleaning out the prison right now, but I'm sure enjoying it (the zombie town is cleared out already).

I should say that for those of you still in Chapter 1, doing the first half of that chapter or so was the part of the game I was least "hooked" during.

Once you get the four parts of the cure, things get really interesting. From then on out, the game was more addictive to me.

So if your opinion is changing already and you've only got one or two of the cure reagents, don't worry - things are going to get more interesting still.

[Aszurom]

I would just like to take the opportunity to appoint myself "Captain Obvious" and point out...

You know the game is pretty phat when the "let's bitch about the game" thread turns into yet another "Let's kiss this game's ass" thread almost immediately and sustains it for another few pages.

And ya know, we haven't even really scratched the surface of the toolset - not to mention that NOBODY I know has yet run the "DM and client party" method of multiplay. If that stuff is as good as the single/coop multi then I think we're going to have to make at least one more NWN worship thread.

[mtkafka]

I thought Wumpus was Captain Obvious? :lol:

etc

[Bub, Andrew]

I should say that for those of you still in Chapter 1, doing the first half of that chapter or so was the part of the game I was least "hooked" during.

Jason, thanks. In all the absurdity that followed my revival of this thread I've been hoping someone would say that - and nobody did! I've cleared out the Prison and the Docks and right now I'm definitely not hooked. I'm not bored or disliking the game, but I'm not playing compulsively like I did with BG, PT, IWD, BG2.

[Murph]

Okay, my gripe: 200 XP (or less) for taking Aribeth one of the reagents?? What's up with that?? Sure, with a level cap at 20, they have to be kind of stingy, but...I got more XP for killing the wizard on the way into the Intellect Devourer's Lair than I did for either killing the Intellect Devourer or taking it's brain to...anyone. What's up with that?

And there's got to be a way to allow more henchmen in a single-player game but not in a multiplayer game. There's just got to be...

[mtkafka]

Another problem I have with NWN is where the game takes place in... its just so generic. I would have liked some distinct tilesets... like swamps, tropical or desert. Yeah I undersand it takes place just south of the Spine of the World north of the Sword Coast... but I'm tired of the same old same old areas. Thats one of the reasons I liked DS and MW alot, some of the areas in each were distinct. All of MW is completely foreign, and the swamps and ice areas were awesome in DS. Though, I did like the Charwood areas in chpt 2 NWN, they were pretty cool.

etc

[Union Carbide]

Okay, my gripe: 200 XP (or less) for taking Aribeth one of the reagents??

Not only is there a level cap of 20, but the xp needed to level is considerably lower than it was in 2nd edition. Since I'm an utter nerd and happen to have both my 2nd and 3rd ed Player Handbooks near my desk, I'll give you an example:

2nd ed:
10th lvl fighter: 500,000 xp
10th lvl wizard: 250,000 xp
10th lvl cleric: 450.000 xp

3rd ed:
All classes: 45,000 xp

So 200 xp isn't as crappy a reward as it seems in comparison to, say BG or BG2, since it only takes 10% as much xp to hit the same level.

[Murph]

Fair enough...But it still strikes me as odd that I get more experience for killing a wizard (I've had some kills that rang in around 350 XP, and they weren't even creatures that I had to take in to find the cure) or half-orc fighter than I get for completing 1/4 of the first chapter. (Okay, 1/5 I guess.)

[Anonymous]

I've noticed that Xp seems to scale depending upon your character's level. Anyone else see this?

For instance, I had a Level 10 Paladin who killed a Troll, and got something like 55Xp for each Troll kill. As soon Paladin hit Level 11, Troll kills went down to 38Xp.

There's something in the manual about Monster ratings, like if you encounter a monster who is five star-challenge to your level, it means RUN LIKE HELL. But if you managed to somehow kill that monster, I imagine the Xp would be like manna from heaven. But if your character encounters a monster that's like a one star-challenge to your level, you get peanuts for the kill.

[Union Carbide]

I've noticed that Xp seems to scale depending upon your character's level. Anyone else see this?

I've seen that too, it really tends to be evident when you're playing multiplayer and your character is a level or two higher than the other characters. The thing is, sometimes you'll get MORE exp from a particular monster than the other characters will, so I'm not sure exactly what it's tied to.

[Xaroc]

I thought Wumpus was Captain Obvious? :lol:

etc

Wait, I thought Wumpus was Captain Oblivious ... ;)

-- Xaroc

[Gordon Berg]

Warning, long post! (i.e., This thread is now officially dead since it takes more than five seconds to read. Thank you and good night!)

NWN has taken quite a bit of getting used to, and all of it I freely admit comes from my wanting-it-to-be-Balder's Gate 3 bias.

Over time, though, you start to accept the game as it was intended and it gets pretty addictive. So far, I've found the game challenging, regardless of whatever class I've played and have had fun trying to figure out which combination works best. "What kills creature x faster?" has always had an appeal for me. That's why I don't care so much whether the game uses the 2nd Edition rules or the new 3rd Edition; for me, the hook is figuring them out and still not break the game to where it's too easy. And while the story so far doesn't seem as epic or grand as the Baldur's Gate series, I don't think it's from a lack of effort...it just seems that this engine doesn't somehow convey the same impact. Probably an unfair BG bias again on my part, but I'm sufficiently intrigued enough for now. If anything, I suspect things are moving too slow for my tastes.

What is not working is the single player/multiplayer campaign convergence and how the game suffers for not excelling in either. Given that the game seems effort intensive, I was hoping to go back and forth between my sp campaign and dabble in some mp with my friends, using the same character. The manual even says there's an "import" feature. Wrong. After the manual was written, Bioware evidently thought an import button wasn't necessary since you could accomplish the same thing through different but not necessarily much more complicated means (as per a Bioware programmer). Wrong again. The "workaround" suggested by the programmer currently breaks your henchmen, and the steps involved are a major pain in the ass. I can only assume they'll fix it, but I think this is one aspect they didn't pay enough attention to. After all, such a practice was common with the BG series as long as you played your single player game in multiplayer mode and the coming of NWN was supposed to do away with that.

Another thing about multiplayer is that it's much easier to hack your character with the included toolset and debug mode. Which means going on any server with localvault characters is just plain nuts. So unless you can find a favorite server out there that stores the characters for you, it gets out of hand. To be expected, sure, but such servers will often be full due to quality and popularity, so it won't be convenient. And just how are these "portals" supposed to work? If your character is stored on one server and thus "legal," will the scripting allow his/her stats and equipment, etc., to jump on over to the next one and thus equally legal and safe on the new server? I haven't seen an example of this yet, but I remember this being a big bullet item on NWN's feature set. It's almost as if you're asking The People to run a type of MMORPG environment for you. This smacks of being a little too Utopian for me given the kind of issues a dedicated MMORPG company like Verant or Mythic face.

Yeah yeah, the game has just been released and given time, much of this will hopefully be worked out. Don't know why I'm disappointed at how much doesn't work since it was obviously released to make a fiscal deadline (anyone know if Ubi's fiscal year ended yesterday?). I guess I'm skeptical the game will ultimately function as seemlessly as I hoped.

This much is clear: NWN is a true DnD 3E game if played in an appropriate manner. If you can find other players you trust and have a competent DM, then it looks like it's possible to have a computer gaming experience like no other. So why do I feel this would require everyone sitting around a table with laptops instead of surfing at home, trying to find a good NWN session through Gamespy?

[Gordon Berg]

Hmm, catching up on the other NWN posts and I think I posted this to the wrong thread.

Oops. :shock:

[Mark Asher]

There are just a host of issues with the mutliplayer game, especially if it's important to you that you play with other players who haven't hacked characters.

I really think most of the long-term activity with NWN will be with people making mods that are like small, standalone games for individual players.

[Legolas Greenleaf]

I really think most of the long-term activity with NWN will be with people making mods that are like small, standalone games for individual players.

I agree. Also, I just want to point out this quote from the newest issue of Computer Gaming World, which has a "NWN hands-on preview" slash first impressions article, like Jeff Green said in another thread. Good job, Jeff Green. Anyway:


The Neverwinter Nights toolset, called Aurora, is no longer the main emphasis, having taken a backseat to the single-player game, which wasn't talked up much when the game first surfaced but has since come to the forefront in ads and marketing. BioWare will tell you that it had plans for a big solo campaign from the start, but in the early days, NWN was about its DM tools and online play, not its single-player campaign.

Emphasis mine. So I hope this settles that question once and for all.

[Jason Cross]

NWN's multiplayer has its share of problems, some technical, some not. Many are shared with other games.

But FWIW, Diablo II is the only RPG with a better online component (and a MUCH worse offline component, but that's neither here nor there). And I'm already having a really good time checking out the player-made content with NWN.

I played a bit this weekend on a "persistant world" server, where you make a new character when you first join and it's stored on the server vault. It was rather fun. There were 12-18 people on at a time, grouping up in parties of 4 or so, using the "emote" animations and stuff and exploring the countryside. The module design needed some serious tweaking, but I still had a great time. It was called Fort Braveheart if any of you are interested in checking it out.

They've got a few issues to work out with stability and network performance on their server software, but I've seen far worse.

[Rob O'Boston]

"I really think most of the long-term activity with NWN will be with people making mods that are like small, standalone games for individual players."

I agree with this Mark. Hopefully the game will really catch the imaginations of a lot of dedicated people. The multiplayer will live on in isolated (but plentiful?) groups, but the mass market will probably be clever single player modules.

[Mark Asher]

From Jeff Green in CGW via Legolas:

"BioWare will tell you that it had plans for a big solo campaign from the start, but in the early days, NWN was about its DM tools and online play, not its single-player campaign."

As I recall, the original plan was for 20 or so small modules that you could play in 2-3 hours each solo (or multiplayer) that would link up to tell a story. BioWare orginally was selling the multiplayer/DM aspect hard, and the single player was more like a toss-in. Well, "toss-in" sounds more harsh than I mean, but the single player stuff definitely wasn't the main focus.

That BioWare shifted their focus and produced a strong single player game is to their credit, but it makes me wonder if that shift was the result of BioWare's realization that the DMing stuff probably was going to fall short of the PNP experience?

[Mark Asher]

"I played a bit this weekend on a "persistant world" server, where you make a new character when you first join and it's stored on the server vault. It was rather fun."

I think there's some promise along these lines too. I could see dedicated NWN MMOG servers with a player population of several hundred and lots of fun could ensue. There are a few limitations, though:

1) Lag. The net code needs some work if the game is really going to support 64 players online at once.

2) The level limit of 20. You can hit that in a month of play, and then what do you do? It's almost like you'd need some combination of perma-death and realm vs. realm combat to keep the interest up.

3) An interesting world to play in. I think this will take an enormous amount of work. It's certainly not trivial. It will take a dedicated group of fans to build such a world.

[Jason Becker]

1) Is it the net code or too many people trying to run servers on below spec machines and 56K modems? I had this happen allot.

2) Why? It could be a similar setup to Diablo II for its attraction. People make many diffrent chars and try out diffrent classes and styles within the classes, using the 3E rules of skills and feats.

3) Yes it will.

[Desslock]

>The level limit of 20. You can hit that in a month of play, and then what do you do? It's almost like you'd need some combination of perma-death and realm vs. realm combat to keep the interest up.

Unfortunately, 20 is it right now for 3rd Edition rules, although BioWare could create its own extrapolations for higher levels like it did for BG2TOB. Wizards has an "epic" level expansion in the works, but it makes radical changes that would be difficult to encompass within the NWN engine.

[Mark Asher]

"1) Is it the net code or too many people trying to run servers on below spec machines and 56K modems? I had this happen allot."

No idea. I only joined low ping games. Is there further information available I can view before I join a game?

"2) Why? It could be a similar setup to Diablo II for its attraction. People make many diffrent chars and try out diffrent classes and styles within the classes, using the 3E rules of skills and feats."

Yeah, there will be some of that. I think the long-term attraction of Diablo 2 was the leveling and item collection. It's not easy hitting the really high levels in D2.

[Jason Becker]

Its was easier early on but so may people were getting there that Blizzard nerfed the exp you get allot to make leveling up at higher lvls ridiculous.