Avernum 5 is out for windows

[Fooey]

FYI:
http://www.avernum.com/avernum5/index.html

[Elton]

I've been playing Avernum 5 this week and liking it so far (enough to purchase it once I hit the demo wall). I played a couple of Vogel's really early Exile games and liked them but never finished them. His newer games have better interfaces and I am better at finishing them now. It helps that his story-telling and quest-designing skills have gotten better too. I know he steals ideas from a lot of classic RPGs but I don't mind -- The Spiderweb games scratch my RPG itch nicely (and play on my crotchety old rig).

[Lizard_King]

Thanks for the heads up. I haven't played one of these since he was about the extent of options available for Mac rpgs. You know, back in the day, when the TSR gold box port got me started on the habit and then left me hanging.

I'd be curious to hear a few specific comments about the game, perhaps some comparisons to other games. But I'm dling regardless and we'll see how it turns out.

[tromik]

I've been playing the demo for Eschalon: Book I (http://www.basiliskgames.com/book1.htm). It's pretty decent - nice graphics for an indie RPG, good combat, story seems good so far. I'm not crazy about the Diablo-style movement, though. The website makes a big deal about this being "not another action-RPG," but it uses the same hold-to-click-move system that Diablo and it's clones are known for. Get some pathfinding!

I'm going to try out the Avernum 5 demo. I've never played a Spiderweb Software game - which is considered the best?

[Jason Lutes]

I'm going to try out the Avernum 5 demo. I've never played a Spiderweb Software game - which is considered the best?
I think they get progressively better, as Elton has pointed out. Avernum 5 is probably the best, and it's standalone, but if you want to get a broader sense of the scope and history of the setting, you might want to start with Avernum 1.


I'd be curious to hear a few specific comments about the game, perhaps some comparisons to other games. But I'm dling regardless and we'll see how it turns out.
My favorite things about the Avernum games are that they're party-based -- which allows for meaningful tactical decisionmaking -- and that they allow for some fairly nonlinear adventuring. There are usually lots of side quests and secondary sites to explore. Another fun aspect is that most dungeons or caves or whatever have logical layouts. They remind me of a lot of the best D&D modules in that way.

[Dhruin]

Which is the best? I don't know too many people would agree. I really like the Geneforge series - more decisions, factions and less combat...but the parties in Avernum are nice, too. The interface improvements in newer versions really are worth having so while my favourite is probably Geneforge 1 or Nethergate, GF4 or AV5 are good places for someone new to start.

Since most of the graphics and systems are recycled, I doubt too many new players can go through from the beginning of each series, so you might as well start with the current ones. The backstory is easy to pick up.

[Shadari]

I'm probably one of the few weirdos that actually liked the Exile series the best.

[malkav11]

I'm probably one of the few weirdos that actually liked the Exile series the best.

I might do. I haven't really played Avernum much but my impression was that while I'd appreciate the improvements in the dialogue system and some of the other fiddlier interface bits (and of course the new content), the wholesale stripping of entire classes of spells (summoning key among them) and loss of two characters from the party would offset that more than a bit.

I think as a starter I'd either recommend Geneforge (which is the only Spiderweb game I've played to completion) or Nethergate: Resurrection. If Avernum 1 hasn't added a whole ton of additional stuff over Exile, and I don't think it has, it'd be a bit directionless and low on story to make the best first impression. Geneforge has some annoying interface quirks, but great story and gameplay with meaningful choices, plus summoning. And I really don't think you want to start later in the series because of continuing story elements, for both series. Which is why I'd recommend Nethergate: Resurrection as the other option. It has systems that are fairly similar to Avernum, benefits from ~8-10 games worth of UI design experience and the most modern code aside from Avernum 5 (so 1024x768 support, unlike a lot of the older games, among other things). And it's entirely standalone. It's a remake of Nethergate, not a sequel.

On the other hand, it may not be the best move to start with the newest interface and code because it'd be harder to go back to the annoyances of the earlier games afterwards.

[Quitch]

Is there a way to tell how far you and the enemy can move in combat in Geneforge? I played the demo of the first one a year ago, but was put off because moving in combat seemed to incredibly random, I could never know whether I would make that cover, or escape that enemy, so I rarely had a choice to do more than shoot shit.

The quests on the other hand looked like they'd open some real options for me :)


I've been playing the demo for Eschalon: Book I (http://www.basiliskgames.com/book1.htm). It's pretty decent - nice graphics for an indie RPG, good combat, story seems good so far.

I personally thought it was a waste. It gave you turn-based combat without any reason for the combat to be turn-based. A pause on opening the spell book, or having a pause key would have achieved the same thing, and alleviated the tedious travel mechanisms. I love me turn-based, but if you're going to slow things down you better damn well be adding some depth, or tactics, or something... ANYTHING!

[Chuck]

Still no walking animation for the party members? Jeez. It may be a minor quibble, but I kind of expected Avernum to adopt the animations of the Geneforge stories.

I'll check it out though; I love supporting Spiderweb Software for keeping 2D rpg's alive.

[Jason Lutes]

I personally thought it was a waste. It gave you turn-based combat without any reason for the combat to be turn-based. A pause on opening the spell book, or having a pause key would have achieved the same thing, and alleviated the tedious travel mechanisms. I love me turn-based, but if you're going to slow things down you better damn well be adding some depth, or tactics, or something... ANYTHING!
I totally agree with this. I bought Eschalon on day one with high hopes, but quickly tired of it for those reasons, plus the fact that the game world just felt blah.

[Gordon Cameron]

Avernum 2 is one of my favorite RPGs of all time -- not sure if it is better than the other Avernums (Averna?); it's just the one I encountered first and played to completion.

I really liked some of the writing in Geneforge 1, but I think I got stuck in a dungeon somewhere and lost the momentum and never completed.

[tromik]

I personally thought it was a waste. It gave you turn-based combat without any reason for the combat to be turn-based. A pause on opening the spell book, or having a pause key would have achieved the same thing, and alleviated the tedious travel mechanisms. I love me turn-based, but if you're going to slow things down you better damn well be adding some depth, or tactics, or something... ANYTHING!
I didn't get far enough to first more than enemy, but I kinda liked it. The gameworld is a bit dull, though, and I totally agree about the movement.

Started playing the Avernum 5 demo last night - really liked it, and didn't at all mind the lack of movement animation.

Edit: Anyone know if the game can be played in a window?

[GuildBoss]

Fantastic series! And this will be the first version I get to run on a Mac. :)

[noun]

I'm probably one of the few weirdos that actually liked the Exile series the best.

Exile 3 is one of my all time favorite RPGs, warts and all. I even bought Geneforge, but I dunno. Great concept, but something about the gameplay just turns me off. I can't put my finger on it.

I have to admit, with today's RPGs being so piss poor, I'm very tempted to try out Avernum 1 and relive the glory again.

[Gendal]

I used to love the Exile series back when I used a mac, but I stopped playing them before he ever redid them in Avernum. Started playing the demo when it came out and loved it, probably played around 40+ hours so far and it feels like I am not even halfway done. Taking a break for now but I am sure when I get some extra time I will be back.

[Robert Sharp]

Exile had a lot of potential. Great character system. But the UI is far better in the newer games. Personally, the Geneforge series is my favorite, with 2 being the one I had the most fun with (never played past the demo portion of the most recent one, though).

[tromik]

The site says that one of the Exile games is open source. Does anyone know if everyone ever did anything with it?

[peacedog]

Single player CRPGs (that is, where you just play one dude or dudette) are hard to do IMO. Geneforge of course offers some limited party creation, but it's still kind of a "solo" RPG where you deploy fodder as needed.

Avernum 1 doesn't have a quest journal, that didn't appear in the engine until Avernum 2. Be aware. Exile is my favorite of the Exile series simply because it was the first one I played through in it's entirety, but I thought Exile II was the best game overall (III was great though). There are more significant mechanics changes from Avernums 1 - 3, but I liked them all and they were just different enough to feel fresh. Exile III is one of the hardest CRPGs I've played I think; Avernum 3 wasn't quite as tough relatively speakign.

I liked Avernum 4 but it too marks a somewhat new direction, and there were things about it people didn't like. The new engine is more Ultima 6 like - no more load screens and icons that signify town entry point and such, just continuous game world. I really like 5, and think it's superior to 4 in just about every aspect. Getting around ins't obnoxious, thanks to a combination of teleportation mechanism and just general scale/player speed.

[peacedog]

Exile had a lot of potential. Great character system. But the UI is far better in the newer games. Personally, the Geneforge series is my favorite, with 2 being the one I had the most fun with (never played past the demo portion of the most recent one, though).

YEah, the UI is definately improved, but it takes an even more significant leap forward in Avernum 4 (if you haven't played it or 5). And Avernum 5 has the superior mechanics when it comes to carry weight (non existant) and equip weight (based on strength), as well as how action points work in combat. It was the same stuff Vogel did with Geneforge 4, which I really liked. I thought it was superior to 3 (which was starting to feel a little too samish for my tastes), and the small mechanics changes went a very long way.

[Tyjenks]

I totally agree with this. I bought Eschalon on day one with high hopes, but quickly tired of it for those reasons, plus the fact that the game world just felt blah.

Ditto, seconded. While I, too, was looking forward to it, luckily, I got tired of it before the demo finished. FInished the demo and had seen all I needed and skipped it. It did make me go in search of something similar and while I had tried an earlier Avernum and it never stuck with me, Avernum 4 was great. At least after playing Eshaclon for a couple days.

[GuildBoss]

I totally agree with this. I bought Eschalon on day one with high hopes, but quickly tired of it for those reasons, plus the fact that the game world just felt blah.

FWIW, I enjoyed Eschalon and look forward to the developer's follow-up title. It's hard enough to find a decent indie CRPG let alone someone willing to actually develop one. I hope Basilisk continues and I feel pretty confident that the next title will improve upon the original.

Back OT: For anybody knew to Avernum, I think it would be a crime to skip 1 and 2. Too much great back story to miss out on, IMHO. A2 was just brilliant.

Geneforge never appealed to me for some reason...

[malkav11]

Geneforge does have certain incredibly irritating gameplay elements, like the way equipment and AP play out (especially aggravated by your PC being the only character with an inventory). But it's worth getting past that and digging into it.

[malkav11]

The site says that one of the Exile games is open source. Does anyone know if everyone ever did anything with it?

There were some threads about stuff being done with it in the forums. I haven't been back to the forums in months, so I don't know if those ever actually released anything useful.

[Robert Sharp]

I think Blades of Exile actually allows you to create your own modules and such. I'm pretty sure that game had some people create modules, but they weren't really mods as such, AFAIK.

[Lizard_King]

Played this for like 5 hours today (Not out of the demo area yet!). Addictive, definitely, and I think I'll try to keep at it. The interface is very decent and the graphics utilitarian but not ugly. I think I'll keep it.

[Sarkus]

Played this for like 5 hours today (Not out of the demo area yet!). Addictive, definitely, and I think I'll try to keep at it. The interface is very decent and the graphics utilitarian but not ugly. I think I'll keep it.

Same here. I keep expecting to hit the demo wall but it keeps going.

One thing I don't like, particularly since I've been playing IWD2 lately, is not being able to tell from looking what I can pick up. Wandering around just to see if something shows up when I pull up the inventory screen gets old fast.

Or maybe I'm missing something?

[Lizard_King]

Same here. I keep expecting to hit the demo wall but it keeps going.

One thing I don't like, particularly since I've been playing IWD2 lately, is not being able to tell from looking what I can pick up. Wandering around just to see if something shows up when I pull up the inventory screen gets old fast.

Or maybe I'm missing something?
I've gotten the hang of a lot of things that look like crap (and are), and usually tapping G anywhere within a square of them and then ESCing out of it quickly gets me through it. I don't really get the point of all of the useless nonsaleable stuff, but it's only a minor annoyance so far.

I've got a pretty generic party (soldier, cat scout, priest, sorcerer) but I'm enjoying fleshing them out and seeing the consequences of different traits and the like. Ranged weapons are huge thus far, I'm sure I'll get the hang of ranges and the like, but for now I just spam the arrows until they are within hitting distance.

My magic users are very useful, but I have a tough time paying attention to immunities and the like. With some of the earlier guys having everyone concentrate on the hardest enemy was the way to go, but with the (slightly) later ones I found focusing the fighters on the main bad guy and using the magic users to clean up the trash efficiently worked best.

Buffs are, as the hint promises, really powerful. I do wish the spell/ability levels were more transparent as I don't find the stat info all that informative, but it's nothing that a few thousand more hours won't fix.

[Quitch]

So, what's the appeal of Avernum Vs. Geneforge? I was rather enjoying the Geneforge demo, until I hit combat, and I just felt like the game wasn't giving me all the information I needed... like how far I could move with how many AP would be left. The Avernum demo is just plain intimidating owing to party choice :)

[Lizard_King]

AP is pretty clearly marked and used in A5, so it sounds like they heard your complaints. As far as party choice, I think so long as you keep a basic RPG balance and not go too crazy with the traits and disadvantages you should be just fine. I haven't run into any "fuuuuuuck" moments yet because of party choice, but I have had a number of close calls due to the fact that a much more challenging version of a creature uses the same sprite as cannon fodder.

I don't yet know how to get info on an enemy other than visually and by seeing them do an action, which can often be too late.

[Jason Lutes]

I think Blades of Exile actually allows you to create your own modules and such. I'm pretty sure that game had some people create modules, but they weren't really mods as such, AFAIK.
Yeah, Blades of Exile and the remake, Blades of Avernum, are all about user-made stand-alone adventures. There are a lot available for download on Spiderweb's site (http://www.avernum.com/blades/scen_list.html).

I got into making stuff for Blades of Exile years ago, but was ultimately disappointed that I couldn't easily mod the basic rules -- I really wanted to change the player races and spells so that my adventures could be set in my own world. Someone with actual programming knowledge could maybe do it. Everything else (tile graphics, items, monsters, etc.) was easily moddable, though, and building modules set in the Avernum world is a cinch.

[Jason Lutes]

So, what's the appeal of Avernum Vs. Geneforge? I was rather enjoying the Geneforge demo, until I hit combat, and I just felt like the game wasn't giving me all the information I needed... like how far I could move with how many AP would be left. The Avernum demo is just plain intimidating owing to party choice :)
Party choice and party-based tactics are exactly why I prefer the Avernum games over Geneforge. I'm guessing your options open up in Geneforge further along in the game, but it didn't sustain my interest long enough to find out. Also, if I recall, your summoned beasties don't gain experience and level up, and I love having a whole party that gets to do that.

[Robert Sharp]

So, what's the appeal of Avernum Vs. Geneforge? I was rather enjoying the Geneforge demo, until I hit combat, and I just felt like the game wasn't giving me all the information I needed... like how far I could move with how many AP would be left. The Avernum demo is just plain intimidating owing to party choice :)

People complain about this in Geneforge, but I never had this problem. I always knew how far I could move and still cast my spells and such. Maybe it just takes getting used to, but I don't remember it ever being a real issue...maybe it was fixed after the first game or something?

Anyway, Avernum is more traditional RPG fare in many ways. I don't like the story as much as Geneforge (which has very interesting moral choices and such). And something about the graphics turn me off. It's all underground and brown. Maybe that's it.

[Robert Sharp]

Party choice and party-based tactics are exactly why I prefer the Avernum games over Geneforge. I'm guessing your options open up in Geneforge further along in the game, but it didn't sustain my interest long enough to find out. Also, if I recall, your summoned beasties don't gain experience and level up, and I love having a whole party that gets to do that.

Actually, the monsters do level up in the sense that as they gain xp you can pump more traits into them (at the cost of your essence, as usual). That's part of the balance though. Without that, the gameplay wouldn't work. Besides, you want to create the more powerful creatures later anyway, so your early monsters will seldom be used late in the game (except as fodder, maybe).

I could defend Geneforge all day, but ultimately it's up to the individual. Try them both. The demos are long (25% of the full game), so they give you plenty of time to find out which you prefer.

[Lizard_King]

Is the last geneforge game the best place to start if you only intend to play one of them?

[Robert Sharp]

Gameplay-wise, yes. And it will give some background. You pretty much always start as a new recruit, so everything is given to in pieces anyway. I just really like the story of part 2.

[Lizard_King]

Gameplay is definitely my priority, so I'm glad what seemed obvious also happened to be true. Two spiderweb games from a single thread...being an impulse buyer is hard work.

[Chowhound]

I'm particularly fond of Nethergate Resurrection, as that type of game setting in a RPG is very few and far between.

[Robert Sharp]

I really wish Vogel could increase his budget or produce the same games with a small team. I know he profits from doing things his way, but I'd still like to see a more polished/graphically advanced game. Still, I love the gameplay. Very old school in just the right ways. I hope he never burns out, and I don't care about that interview he did that suggested that he couldn't be innovative with his RPGs because of his audience. I think he IS innovative in various ways.

[olaf]

So is there a way to run the demo, or the full version, in a window?

edit: It does not look like it :(

[Lizard_King]

I was hoping to get it windowed as well, but the last ditch program (http://www.xcomufo.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7365) that apparently makes many older games able to be run in windowed mode will only get this game (at least as far as Av5 and Geneforge 4) to have a black window with some sounds.

I recommend experimenting with the somewhat translated version of d3d linked to in post 24 of that thread if you are interested. I could get neither the graphics nor the mouse cursor to appear in the windowed area, although the sound effects for the loadscreens seemed intact. I'm sure somebody who understands this stuff better could troubleshoot it in a less futile manner.

Apparently, it's recommended to copy the exe and the dll into the same program folder as the exe you are trying to window. Anyways, 90% of the thread covers people either being successful with it or failing miserably, so I guess it's hit or miss. Back to my non windowed adventures, for now.

[Dave Markell]

Is the last geneforge game the best place to start if you only intend to play one of them?

What about Avernum? I'm interested in the series--should I play 5 first if I buy one to try it out, or are the previous 4 a better starting place?

[Lizard_King]

Beats me. I'm pretty happy with Av5 and Gf4 so far (going to try Nethergate next), and I haven't played any of these since Exile 1 (I could have sworn there was another spiderweb like game that I used to play along with Ambrosia's mac shareware back in the day, but the name escapes me).

These games are huge, though. Even the demos are massive in scope, even though they clock in with a paltry 30mb installer.

[krayzkrok]

I reckon it's best to start at the beginning. Subsequent games in each series aren't so dramatically different, and if the style and approach of the first one grabs you then you won't miss later improvements if you haven't seen them first.

[Dave Markell]

Thanks guys. I'll check out the first one once I clear my backlog.

[malkav11]

Beats me. I'm pretty happy with Av5 and Gf4 so far (going to try Nethergate next), and I haven't played any of these since Exile 1 (I could have sworn there was another spiderweb like game that I used to play along with Ambrosia's mac shareware back in the day, but the name escapes me).

These games are huge, though. Even the demos are massive in scope, even though they clock in with a paltry 30mb installer.

I suspect the game you're thinking of is Realmz, which was designed to be extendable with a bunch of scenarios (I think six or seven were released), each costing additional cash. It was a pretty decent game, but Fantasoft (who made it) seems to have gone out of business or something, as the website hasn't been updated in ages and I'm not sure there's any legitimate way to buy anything there anymore.

[Lizard_King]

I suspect the game you're thinking of is Realmz, which was designed to be extendable with a bunch of scenarios (I think six or seven were released), each costing additional cash. It was a pretty decent game, but Fantasoft (who made it) seems to have gone out of business or something, as the website hasn't been updated in ages and I'm not sure there's any legitimate way to buy anything there anymore.

Haha, Realmz. That was it. It appears the company is dead but I expect the managers will still charge you for a registration code if you go through the ordering song and dance. I'm almost tempted to for 5$, but I'll stick with spiderweb for now. I made one character just for the hell of it, and frantically clicking reroll is as much fun as it ever was.

Hard to believe that the guy who made Exile (which I recall considering as subpar in comparison to Realmz, although I'm sure that opinion was based on dumb shit) is still at it, and Fantasoft is out of the business for good. Thanks for the nostalgia bomb.

[Elton]

Actually, the monsters do level up in the sense that as they gain xp you can pump more traits into them (at the cost of your essence, as usual). That's part of the balance though. Without that, the gameplay wouldn't work. Besides, you want to create the more powerful creatures later anyway, so your early monsters will seldom be used late in the game (except as fodder, maybe).

Yep, that's a lot of the fun of Geneforge (I've only played 4 so far). Leveling up your critters, only to later on replace them with better critters to level, and then trying like hell to keep the best ones alive. Summoned creatures which are killed can easily be resummoned, but start with no experience IIRC, so I got surprisingly attached to my otherwise generic little dragon dudes by the end of the game.

Still enjoying Avernum 5 after playing it a lot over the weekend, although I echo the frustration of one of the posters upthread about not knowing the numbers behind the skills -- e.g. I want to know exactly how much an extra point of Magery is worth to my buffs. But it's probably better for the role-playing experience to not have the temptation to min-max.

One of these days I'm going to play an Avernum with as unbalanced a party as possible, with either minimal melee skills or minimal priest/mage skills. I don't think I could get by without at least Cure Poison and Haste.

[Jason Lutes]

Yep, that's a lot of the fun of Geneforge (I've only played 4 so far). Leveling up your critters, only to later on replace them with better critters to level, and then trying like hell to keep the best ones alive. Summoned creatures which are killed can easily be resummoned, but start with no experience IIRC, so I got surprisingly attached to my otherwise generic little dragon dudes by the end of the game.
Okay, looks like I'm going to have to give it another go and stick it out through the slow beginning...

[CSL]

I hate you all so much for mentioning this game - I spent six or seven hours playing yesterday instead of writing those papers that were due today.

[Lizard_King]

Geneforge 4 is more interesting to me at the moment (thanks, Robert), but I bought both and they definitely have different things to offer. I just like being a Shaper-loving traitor more than an imperial stooge, but it's a close one. It's great to rediscover these kinds of games...for the price of one Lost Odyssey I could have had two of these, which spiderweb says are not only flexible enough to be run off a thumb drive for people with multiple computers, but that they'll hook me up with extra reg codes for my other computer if need be. Now that's customer service.

[Dave Markell]

I hate you all so much for mentioning this game - I spent six or seven hours playing yesterday instead of writing those papers that were due today.

That right there? That's why QT3 exists.

[Elton]

I have what's probably a very foolish question about the interface in Avernum 5:

How do I split stacked items? I know I can sell only a portion of a stack, but I need to be able to split them in the inventory to share healing potions and javelins and whatnot.

[Lizard_King]

Hold down shift and then click on them. That gives you the option to pick x amount out of the stack.

[Elton]

Ah, thanks! I thought I'd tried that, but I guess I missed it.

[Fooey]

I'm just getting a chance to get into this now after buying it and then getting caught up with moving. It's really good so far about ten hours in, could be Spiderweb's best yet if it keeps up the strong start. The new battle disciplines add a lot more tactical interest to melee fighters compared to all the options of magic users. I'm loving that he brought back boats. That was something I really missed in the graphical upgrade from 3 to 4. The story in this one is really interesting so far (much more so than 4, which was too predictable), and it seems like there might be interesting choices to make regarding feelings towards the Empress' views versus the rebels, which would be a welcome Geneforge twist to Avernum. For anyone put off by the graphics, at least for me the world is so well thought out and interesting and the writing strong enough that it really doesn't matter pretty quickly.

[Lizard_King]

At the moment, I still prefer GF4 as I play the two at the same time.

Things they both need:

Clearer mission/person/location info in journal, whether it's by giving me more exact directions to the guy who gave me the missions or having some "click to highlight on your map" option. This is especially true for A5's open world. I don't mind the graphics except when I have to click on a dozen nondescript characters to try to figure out who gave me the quest.

The same key that opens a window should close it if hit again. No reason ESC should be the only way out.


A5

You need mission x to be able to kill bad guy/pick up item, rather than simply being able to do the mission as part of exploring and be retroactively rewarded. Sure, most of the time it's a harmless backtrack, but it adds up.

Clearer distinctions between "not able to do this at this stage in the plot or your skill level...yet" and "never able to do this". A number of things I've come across in the first level of A5 have left me in the dark about that. Maybe I'm just too conditioned by more conventional games.

Robert's item quibble. GF4 at least let you pick up from a wider radius at once, getting next to everything to tap g, click, and drag every item is annoying. That ties into the sale/use icon placement. I would much rather have a key combo (aka in store sale window, shift clicking sells everything you click on with no dialog box, outside of that shift click uses an item). Maybe it's just my shoulder injury which is messing with my hand eye coordination at the moment, but after a while hunting the corner of each box 35 times in a row at every store gets old.



Overall, I'm enjoying the game a great deal. I like having my own full party, and I'd rate the plot and writing as moderately interesting, which is miles ahead of most rpgs I've played.

[Dhruin]

I don't find #1 too much of an issue - between using Tab liberally to get NPC names and the map markers, I don't find it a problem. Being able to press the same key to close a window is a long standing issue that is very minor but would be really welcome.

[Elton]

So ... are you all working for Gladwell?

[Beefeater1980]

Off the back of this thread I got sucked into the Geneforge 1 demo, and liked it so much I bought it.

The story, writing and in particular the endings for this game are absolutely brilliant. Hands down the most satisfying I've ever had in an RPG that wasn't Fallout.

I can't bring myself to spoil them for anyone who hasn't yet played it through, but here's a structural description: the endings seem to vary both in terms of (i) what happens to you and the wider world, and (ii) what happens to each of the 3 main groups you meet in the game. (i) has a big knock-on effect on (ii), but what I haven't yet figured out is whether other stuff you do in-game (like allying with or attacking the groups) is also tracked for determining (ii): it seems like there could potentially be quite a lot of (ii) endings.

There's also a short gap between meeting the conditions for an ending and actually triggering it, so you can go wander around the game world and see how people react to your triumph or whatever. This is very cool. Basically, Jeff Vogel has nailed the feeling that your actions are changing the world around you. This isn't done with huge amounts of content, but by cleverly applying small amounts of content.

Anyway, it really, really works. £10 well-spent, plus whatever it costs to continue to feed my new geneforge habit.

[Mink Staccato]

I've been playing the Spiderweb games off and on for the last six months and, for the most part, enjoying them quite a bit. Jeff Vogel deserves the good credit he's given and I agree with one of the posters who said earlier that it's too bad he doesn't try to ramp it up a little. If Jeff wanted to get together a small team and put out a few more games a year, he'd probably be a wealthy man and make quite a few people happy along the way.

I do think it's interesting that people seem to like the storyline/concept of the Geneforge series more than his other games, but don't like the UI as much (which is also my opinion). It's probably because the Geneforge storyline is somewhat different from most things we've seen before, although not by a large amount.

If anything, this just gets me wondering, why it is that really good/interesting/different concepts for RPGs don't get made more often? It always seems to be that people are making Ultima over and over and over. I remember having a really interesting conversation with a game dev some time back. We discussed how much of a shame it is that there isn't a U.S. Civil War RPG or a New York Mafia in the 30’s RPG or a Modern High School simulation RPG (this was before I played Persona 3) or an an RPG about a group of children that have to break into a giant steampunk-run toy factory to rescue a time traveling penguin named 'Toad'…

Man, I need to learn how to program.

-Mink-

[nixon66]

If anything, this just gets me wondering, why it is that really good/interesting/different concepts for RPGs don't get made more often?

-Mink-

Funny part about this is Jeff Vogel did create a game outside the normal RPG settings - Nethergate.

Check out his comment on it here:

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/701/701513p1.html

[Dhruin]

Yeah, I signed up with Gladwell. Both loved and hated it. ;)

On different concepts, have you read Jeff's View from the Bottom column about Nethergate (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/701/701513p1.html)?

Avernum comfortably outsells Geneforge and Nethergate just didn't do well at all. I've seen plenty of other devs echo the idea that straight high fantasy outsells other genres by large measures.

Edit: Gah - beaten by seconds!

[AndrewM]

The setting of Avernum is a little weird, being that it is all subterranean.

[malkav11]

Avernum 3 isn't. (Well, Exile 3 wasn't, and being as Avernum 1-3 are remakes of the Exile games...) I can't speak as to 4 or 5, as I haven't gotten to them yet.

[Lizard_King]

Just beat A5. I can report it is, in fact, entirely underground.

[Mink Staccato]

Funny part about this is Jeff Vogel did create a game outside the normal RPG settings - Nethergate.

Check out his comment on it here:

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/701/701513p1.html

I'm not saying anything bad about Jeff, but more guys carrying swords, javelins or spears for this or that particular faction isn't exactly cutting edge. To say that this was experimental or stretching the boundaries of creativity is, well, stretching the boundaries of creativity.

"A young druid, well versed in the healing arts..."

Hmmm... I've never heard anything like that before...


-Mink-

[Tim James]

Back from the dead.

In anticipation of the upcoming October sale at Spiderweb, I've got a few questions.

I assume I can download the demo, play through the included areas, and then unlock the full game without having to replay everything, right?

I'm leaning toward Nethergate: Resurrection because I can't decide between Avernum 5 and Geneforge 4 (though I've only spent a couple hours in each demo). Does Nethergate stand up in terms of gameplay and story, or do people like it just because of the unique setting? I admit it sounds nice, but I'd still rather play the more well-done crunchy RPG with an interesting story, even if the setting is trite.

Just looking to grab one this time around and maybe pick up the other two (or more) next year.

[SteveS]

Back from the dead.

I assume I can download the demo, play through the included areas, and then unlock the full game without having to replay everything, right?

Correct.



I'm leaning toward Nethergate: Resurrection because I can't decide between Avernum 5 and Geneforge 4 (though I've only spent a couple hours in each demo). Does Nethergate stand up in terms of gameplay and story, or do people like it just because of the unique setting? I admit it sounds nice, but I'd still rather play the more well-done crunchy RPG with an interesting story, even if the setting is trite.


All three have good stories. All three are well done CRPGs. Which is best is obviously subjective. I liked Nethergate because the conflict was more nationalistic than good/evil (you can play both sides and be the hero in both cases).

[Roy Ziegler]

I really wish Vogel could increase his budget or produce the same games with a small team. I know he profits from doing things his way

I don't think he does. It sounds like he's just scraping by the way he's doing it now supporting his family (and employing some kind of an assistant).

[Dhruin]

Back from the dead.

In anticipation of the upcoming October sale at Spiderweb, I've got a few questions.

I assume I can download the demo, play through the included areas, and then unlock the full game without having to replay everything, right?

I'm leaning toward Nethergate: Resurrection because I can't decide between Avernum 5 and Geneforge 4 (though I've only spent a couple hours in each demo). Does Nethergate stand up in terms of gameplay and story, or do people like it just because of the unique setting? I admit it sounds nice, but I'd still rather play the more well-done crunchy RPG with an interesting story, even if the setting is trite.

Just looking to grab one this time around and maybe pick up the other two (or more) next year.

I thoroughly enjoyed all of those - probably Nethergate the most. It reminded me of an Ultima, with lots to explore and discover. That said, the tech in Geneforge 4 and Avernum 5 are much better (1024x768, better UI, some simple particle and lighting effects) - I find these "nicer" to play. There are moral choices in Nethergate but it doesn't have the branching path complexity of Geneforge 4, because it splits the story into two campaigns right at the beginning (you choose either Celt or Roman and each story is fairly set), whereas G4 has greater depth as an RPG with factional choices.

So, for me, G4 is the better RPG but Nethergate evoked rose-tinted memories of old experiences.

[Tim James]

I was under the impression that Nethergate: Resurrection had most of the new UI enhancements, and was somewhat of a remake of the original.

[Fooey]

Nethergate uses the Blades of Avernum engine, which is a slight upgrade to the to the Avernum 1-3 engine (which I think was slightly upgraded in each iteration, definitely from 1 to 2). It's significantly more primitive than Avernum 4 or especially 5, which had the nice addition of battle disciplines that gave you more tactical flexibility for warriors. I think Avernum 5 is his best game personally.

[Lizard_King]

Avernum 5 was really entertaining, and took me back to the glory days of gold box SSI and mac shareware games (note: most artifacts of that time do not hold up so well). I beat the game in the course of a single week of late night sessions.

G4 had a lot of potential, but after doing A5 it felt like a step backwards. Story and gene mechanics seemed a lot more interesting than A5's more vanilla content, but the differences in which the combat itself was carried out and other minor details made me give up halfway. Nethergate's demo felt like it was just too primitive (all relative, of course), and it's not really the way I like to experience that theme. Another SSI parallel: don't play Dark Queen or Pools before the others, or they'll be dead to you...that's what happened with these, I think.

So I'd say you're fine with either G4 or A5.

[Dhruin]

I was under the impression that Nethergate: Resurrection had most of the new UI enhancements, and was somewhat of a remake of the original.

It is a remake but Jeff only expected middling success from it, so it was a pretty quick turnaround and used an older engine as Foooey explained, because it was easier to get the content in without huge changes.

It's definitely better than the original (which is cranky under XP, only 640x480 etc) but way below the current games. The differences probably don't look much given his ancient technology but it makes quite a difference during play.

[Roy Ziegler]

so, this is my first time giving the avernum games a real chance. I bought the first one and while I'm enjoying the setting, the game just seems like one long ass tedious dungeon crawl after the other.

It also doesn't make much sense in the story, at least it seems to compared to other RPGs. Like, in the setting all the humans in Avernum are having lots of trouble with the myriad groups of bandits, cat people, and lizard people, yet here comes my party of four humans and we clear out all these strongholds of them by ourselves.

Does the series evolve any or are the rest of the games like this as well?

[malkav11]

It definitely evolves, but it's never going to completely steer clear of dungeon crawls and the like.

If you want a slightly more story-oriented experience, the Geneforge games fit that bill better.

[Gendal]

If you don't like dungeon crawls then this is the wrong game for you. I still haven't beat A5 either, but after 40 hours I think I got my monies worth, plus I might always go back and finish it if I get stuck somewhere with no internet access on my laptop.