Why are Blacks still low man on the pole?

[bmulligan]

An interesting article posted in another thread sheds light on the sub culture of america, the black ghettos, and alludes to the ramifications of this growing problem.
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Underclass.shtml

I work frequently in Detroit, mentioned in the article, and can attest to the vadilidy of the article's claims. The question is: Why does the black 'culture' fail when so many other minorities excel?

People don't say it, not often, but they think it: There is nothing we can do. Meanwhile hatred gathers in the urban blasted heath. The riots of Los Angeles could have happened anywhere. The people of the ghetto believe that whites are the cause of their misery, and they are, just under the surface, very angry. One day this is going to bite us.


I submit that they have been taught to hate from birth. They are the only minority group with outspoken political leaders who propegate this hate. They are taught to venerate these leaders akin to Christ, Similar to the palestinian causes against Israel. They can't get past blaming others for their misery long enough to better themselves as a people.

And I don't think it's genetic...

[Cleve Blakemore]

Ah, but here is something to think about ... if it wasn't genetic in the 1950's, it sure as hell would be by now.

America's welfare system has been consistently emasculating the hardworking middle class black in favor of the ace boon coon for the past forty years. You show me a man in the 1960's who held a job as a railroad porter, earned a decent wage, owned his own home and supported his own family, I'll show you a man who was rendered all but socially and sexually obsolete by 1970.

Black females learned to go for the fast pump with the quicky brother in order to maximize their benefits from the system, thus breeding bonobos of equal irresponsibility as their fathers. The poor struggling black lower middle class man who was stable enough to hold down a job and keep a paycheck coming in was regarded as an undesirable sucker by black women who knew the real money was to be found by interludin' with the homeys who practiced fire'n'forget with their DNA syrup. Fewer fathers, bigger benefits and in three generations we now have a species specially bred to be dependent hopheads. What started with borderline genetic competency to function in an industrial society in the 1950's was quickly eliminated in favor of the flash brother just passing through sprayin' his fertility funk with no thought of responsibility to his progeny.

I have seen the sane black man long since passed over in favor of a flashy hood and he has been marginalized in his own community, just an Oreo sucker no fly girl would be seen dead with.

IF it wasn't genetic in the beginning it sure as hell is by now.

[hermyhermit]

I have seen the sane black man long since passed over in favor of a flashy hood and he has been marginalized in his own community, just an Oreo sucker no fly girl would be seen dead with.



I still see it every day at work. A good majority of the women we encounter really despise black officers. They are "whiteys tools" and the fact that they are in a legitimate and often times noble profession is meaningless. They also bring home a meager paycheck in comparison to the dealers we run in and therefore get even less respect. Education or conformity to a society even associated with white is like poison.

Like I said in the other thread. That race is very very sick right now and some level-headed people I know understand this and really want to fix it, but for every one of those who sees the problems you have ten Jesse Jacksons backed up by ten more white liberals like the kind that inhabit this board ready to point the finger at "The Man" and demand another round of handouts.

It is a sad state of affairs.

[bmulligan]

America's welfare system has been consistently emasculating the hardworking middle class black in favor of the ace boon coon for the past forty years.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I been aquainted with more than a few welfare mothers who have greater incentive to indescriminately screw and make babies rather than hold a full time job. One mother I know has 5 children, all from different fathers. And I am helping pay for her diapers and formula. It disgusts me that she actually feels entitled to government payments to feed her family becuase whitey is keeping her down.

Contrary to this, I know many young adults who make a decent living, are honest and hard working but still believe that the white world is directly responsible for them not making more money. They believe every word from Jessie Jackson as if it were the word of God himself. If you ask me, people like Jackson are responsible for the unrest and perpetual ignorance of their own people.

I still don't buy the genetic argument, though. Regardless of inbred intelligence or lack thereof, the malnourished, fatherless genius would still resort to drug dealing and thievery because it's his natural habitat, not because of his genetic makeup.

[Cleve Blakemore]

America's welfare system has been consistently emasculating the hardworking middle class black in favor of the ace boon coon for the past forty years.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I been aquainted with more than a few welfare mothers who have greater incentive to indescriminately screw and make babies rather than hold a full time job. One mother I know has 5 children, all from different fathers. And I am helping pay for her diapers and formula. It disgusts me that she actually feels entitled to government payments to feed her family becuase whitey is keeping her down.

Contrary to this, I know many young adults who make a decent living, are honest and hard working but still believe that the white world is directly responsible for them not making more money. They believe every word from Jessie Jackson as if it were the word of God himself. If you ask me, people like Jackson are responsible for the unrest and perpetual ignorance of their own people.

I still don't buy the genetic argument, though. Regardless of inbred intelligence or lack thereof, the malnourished, fatherless genius would still resort to drug dealing and thievery because it's his natural habitat, not because of his genetic makeup.

Environment. I don't think environment is all that important in determining people's character. I also think it is a slur to insist that the traditional law abiding societies of Europeans are entirely due to their being "just lucky" to suddenly "just appear" in societies that are plentiful and prosperous. If black pathology is responsible ultimately for the black ghetto, then European syntropy is almost assuredly responsible for the organized and structured civilizations they have lived in for 2000 years.

You show me the worst Dark Ages feudal village and I guarantee you it couldn't hold a candle to the hellholes of the third world. Europeans have always had divisions of labor, organized currency systems and law and order and where they have vanished they have quickly recreated same.

[bmulligan]

I don't think environment is all that important in determining people's character.

Nonsense. Our environment shapes us. It allows us to grow to potential, or retards us into impotence. We educate ourselves in our earliest years by emulating our parents. This is exactly the problem Blacks have: they don't have fathers. And because their mother's attention is constantly divided, they don't have real mothers either. Consequently, boys don't learn how to become men. They don't learn integrity, they don't learn respect. They don't learn discipline. Without a family to install these principles, all the intelligence and perfect genes are meaningless.

[Dirt]

Education. Black people need to be taught to admire and value education and educated people. That Kenneth Chenault is someone to be admired, not Snoop Dog.

[Chris]

I think a cultural change is needed. Those who feel this overwhelming sense of entitlement need to realize that they are the best option for making a successful life, not sticking it to the man. They don't need to forget slavery occurred but it still dominates their worldview and fuels their negativity and rage. I wish their was an easy answer and fix but there isn't one.

[Tyjenks]

The family unit has been decimated in many sections of society and in black culture it is not only worst, but it seems to be accepted. When something like 60% is dropping out of high school and 70% is born out of wedlock (whether you believe a nuclear family is needed to raise a child or not), things are not good. When leaders, self-proclaimed or otherwise, of said ethnicity do not want to address these issues and instead want government aid to fix things up, the problem spirals out of control as it obviously has.

Reparations, welfare, sometimes affirmative action, and similair programs, while helpful to a point, serve as a crutch that does not empower a person or family to do better for themselves. Until underpriveledged people are motivated to go out and help themselves, things will never change. Aid prgrams should do just that: "aid". They should not be there to do the heavy lifting for people, only be there to lend a helping hand.

EDIT: One thing that may help is adherence to and chanting of the phrase which the great thinker and actor Cedric the Entertainer uttered in the movie Barbershop:

Man, Fuck Jesse Jackson!

[steve]

Has anyone ever seen the people posting as Cleve Blakemore, bmulligan, and/or hermyhermit in the same room? I think a proper Koontzian analysis of posting patterns is in order.

[Tyjenks]

Has anyone ever seen the people posting as Cleve Blakemore, bmulligan, and/or hermyhermit in the same room? I think a proper Koontzian analysis of posting patterns is in order.

I often think it is just one person playing a little game. Talking to himself, debating topics, occasionally providing support for his/her own points of view. The whole lot of 'em. Now we have a board Narrarator and a Smart parodist. Its like a cavalcade of characters from an ultra-lame bizarro Carol Burnett variety show. In the Qt3 version, all characters are played by one lonely, out of work maniac.

[The Narrator]

The boarders had many ideas on many topics. The cycle of poverty could be ended, they opined, if the black man could only better himself somehow. Some thought the key was education. Others believed there was a lack of positive role models. But there was one issue they could all agree on: The probable awesomeness of Sea Dogs II.

[Chris Nahr]

In the Qt3 version, all characters are played by one lonely, out of work maniac.

All of whose combined post counts still wouldn't measure up to... :wink:

[tombstone]

You know what's awesome? White people discussing "the black problem" and painting all of the poor members of a particular ethnic group with a single brush. That rules. We really dig that; us poor black people. In fact, we couldn't stop gushing over you guys at the last meeting. Good looking out.

[Tyjenks]

You know what's awesome? White people discussing "the black problem" and painting all of the poor members of a particular ethnic group with a single brush. That rules. We really dig that; us poor black people. In fact, we couldn't stop gushing over you guys at the last meeting. Good looking out.

If someone would like to speak up and correct us ig'nrnt crackers, then please do. That is part of the problem: lack of communication. I put forth what I see and or think. I get blasted for that rather than having pointed out to me where I am wrong.

In all seriousness (or as close as I get to that state of being), I am a sponge. Someone not of the caucasian persuaion, please educate me.

[Lunch of Kong]

It's the fricking socio-economic class system. Started with Columbus and and his spanish slave trade. This country was built upon the sweat and blood of Africans and Indians, who were dominated by Europeans with superior firepower. It continues on today because people from the white-side of the race barrier see themselves as rulers of the darkies, even if it's at a subconscience level.

[Tyjenks]

It's the fricking socio-economic class system. Started with Columbus and and his spanish slave trade. This country was built upon the sweat and blood of Africans and Indians, who were dominated by Europeans with superior firepower. It continues on today because people from the white-side of the race barrier see themselves as rulers of the darkies, even if it's at a subconscience level.

Wong...did your last name used to be Smith and instead of simply changing your name to Roger X you adopted a name from your African heritage?

[Jason McCullough]

I submit that they have been taught to hate from birth. They are the only minority group with outspoken political leaders who propegate this hate. They are taught to venerate these leaders akin to Christ, Similar to the palestinian causes against Israel. They can't get past blaming others for their misery long enough to better themselves as a people.

That's comedy, folks.

Take the entire income of a group of people for 200 years, follow that with 100 years of locking them out of the mainstream economic system, giving their income to another group of people. Fast forward 40 years. Hey, look at that - they haven't caught up yet! Not only does their lack of assets prevent this, everyone else has the head start of having their old assets.

[Cleve Blakemore]

I submit that they have been taught to hate from birth. They are the only minority group with outspoken political leaders who propegate this hate. They are taught to venerate these leaders akin to Christ, Similar to the palestinian causes against Israel. They can't get past blaming others for their misery long enough to better themselves as a people.

That's comedy, folks.

Take the entire income of a group of people for 200 years, follow that with 100 years of locking them out of the mainstream economics system, giving their income to another group of people. Fast forward 40 years. Hey, look at that - they haven't caught up yet!

Unlike the Koreans, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Turks, Greeks and Ukrainians - who apparently "caught up" as you described it, within months of reaching American shores!

I be suing fo de repamarations!

[Dirt]

I'm still waiting for my pay from building those railroads.

[Jason McCullough]

"Koreans, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Turks, Greeks and Ukrainians"

My history book doesn't have any mention of them being enslaved. ZOG conspiracy, no doubt.

[Dirt]

"My history book doesn't have any mention of them being enslaved. ZOG conspiracy, no doubt."

Ever hear of the term "shanghaied"?

But most likely because the Chinese people don't bitch and whine endlessly about it.

[Jason McCullough]

Mmm hmmm. Directly comparable (http://www.bartleby.com/61/66/S0316600.html). Who knew?

ETYMOLOGY: After Shanghai, from the former custom of kidnapping sailors to man ships going to China.

[ydejin]

"My history book doesn't have any mention of them being enslaved. ZOG conspiracy, no doubt."

Ever hear of the term "shanghaied"?

But most likely because the Chinese people don't bitch and whine endlessly about it.

Dirt, I think you have that backwards. I believe the term Shanghaied was used to describe a (typically caucasian) sailor who was minding his own business in port and was knocked out or otherwise abducted and woke up the next morning to find himself out at sea having "volunteered" to serve on a long distance voyage to Shanghai or another far away port.

Here's the Meriam Webster Definition (care of www.m-w.com):

Main Entry: shang·hai
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Shanghai, China; from the formerly widespread use of this method to secure sailors for voyages to the Orient
Date: 1871
1 a : to put aboard a ship by force often with the help of liquor or a drug b : to put by force or threat of force into or as if into a place of detention
2 : to put by trickery into an undesirable position

[Union Carbide]

More specifically, it refers to the British Navy's practice of running "Press Gangs" through the waterfront and poor areas of port cities and impressing into service anyone incapable of evading said gangs.

[ydejin]

More specifically, it refers to the British Navy's practice of running "Press Gangs" through the waterfront and poor areas of port cities and impressing into service anyone incapable of evading said gangs.

Hey Union, you sure about that? I was always under the impression that it referred to kidnapping as related to merchant vessels not to military vessels. You'll also note that Meriam Webster marks the initial usage date as 1871. Those of us Patrick O'Brian and Hornblower fans know that the Press Gang practice originated much earlier -- at least at the Napoleanic era, and I would presume earlier.

[Dirt]

My mistake.

[Dirt]

I'm still waiting for my paycheck for working on the railroads though.

[Jason McCullough]

I'm not sure why you'd get one; the "coolies" *were* paid. Chinese Americans were discriminated against, but no where near as badly as African-Americans.

[Dirt]

Well, then I want the difference of what the coolies were paid and what the white people were paid. Dammit.

[Brad Grenz]

More specifically, it refers to the British Navy's practice of running "Press Gangs" through the waterfront and poor areas of port cities and impressing into service anyone incapable of evading said gangs.

Hey Union, you sure about that? I was always under the impression that it referred to kidnapping as related to merchant vessels not to military vessels. You'll also note that Meriam Webster marks the initial usage date as 1871. Those of us Patrick O'Brian and Hornblower fans know that the Press Gang practice originated much earlier -- at least at the Napoleanic era, and I would presume earlier.

Portland, Oregon was the Shanghai capital of the world. There are still miles of tunnels under the city that were used to spirit away unsuspecting men as they slept in public houses, etc.

[Tyjenks]

I'm not sure why you'd get one; the "coolies" *were* paid. Chinese Americans were discriminated against, but no where near as badly as African-Americans.

Even the Native Americans were lucky enough to get their 40 acres and a mule. Well, they were forcibly crammed onto that land, it was 40 acres total, and the mule had to be shared by 100's of families, but still.

Look how much money they are making off casinos now. They are paying us back by bleeding our poor and elderly people.

[Jason McCullough]

Good point on the Native Americans; I guess eliminating a race more-or-less frees you from future compensation claims.

No doubt Chinese railroad workers were paid less due to racism, but it's not in the same league of discrimination.

[Reeko]

Chinese Americans were discriminated against, but no where near as badly as African-Americans.

Did you realize that noone even cared if they died? Slaves were an investment worth a lot of money. Asians were buried where they dropped. They were essentially regarded as worthless cogs in the machine, easily replacable.

[Jason McCullough]

Uh, and? They didn't ship the bodies back 1000 miles to SF because, well, they didn't do that for anyone then, excepting the filthy rich and heads of state.

[XPav]

I don't see Asians today stuck in the repeating cycle of inner-city hell.

That tells me that there's a little more going on than "Whitey keeping everyone down."

[Tyjenks]

You know, I am white and if by "the man" we mean the government, he is doing a pretty good job of keeping me down by taxing the shit outta me and catering to insurance, entertainment conglomerates, and oil companies, among others, who cost me money daily.

I would say the man keeps a lot of us down regardless of color with their own special brand of inefficient money management to which we are forced to contribute.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

The story of Asian Americans is a complicated one. My wife teaches this stuff, but she's not here, so...

The Chinese exclusion kept poor Chinese laborers out of the US after 1882 until its repeal. Teachers, merchants and diplomatic staff were exempt from the law, so the few Chinese immigrants who did arrive were of a higher social standing than the coolies whose low wages had frightened American labor. This is one reason for the higher performance of Chinese throughout American history.

Legal discrimintation against Japanese in California in the early twentieth century was gradually removed because of pressure from Japan. Where African Americans were forcibly brought to the US and had no foreign "protector", Japanese immigrants could and did plead with their diplomats to end segregation in the US - decades before Brown v Board.

American Immigration policy preferred Europeans until the late 1960s. When immigration was opened more widely to Asians, they targeted highly skilled and highly educated immigrants. Asian immigrants largely came from countries with a civil service and strong public education, unlike much of Africa; immigrants from Africa in the late 20th century were leaving penury for potential. Asians were mostly moving up, but still into the middle class they occupied at home. This can be especially seen in South Asians.

Other Asian American's haven't had it so easy. Filipinos greatly underperform compared to other ethnic groups. Vietnamese also have trouble moving up the economic ladder.

But the legacy of slavery must be put in a completely different category from that of immigrants. Asian immigrant workers, even when mistreated, were never owned. They won citizenship rights early in their immigrant history.

My wife worked on this (http://www.cetel.org/ancestors_overview.html) series. It's an excellent intro to Asian American history.

Troy

[bmulligan]

No doubt Chinese railroad workers were paid less due to racism, but it's not in the same league of discrimination.

Asians aren't out to get sometihing for nothing. Asians don't have leaders that say they are 'owed' a job, a decent wage, food, shelter, or anything else. Asian leaders aren't looking to keep their own people down in order to retain their position of influence. Tell me Jessie Jackson would have 1/10the the power he has today if blacks weren't rotting in the inner cities. He has a vested interest in getting as many blacks as possible to be dependent on his words and sphere of influence. Same with the Democrats, the more people that need them, the more power they can wield over the rest of us.

And to Cleve: I find it hard to believe you are defending the concept of Democracy. Democracy is merely a tool of the majority to enslave any minority. Democracy is why your government feels the need to ban everything in sight. Why would you need a majority decision to determine what is right(re: invading Iraq)? A majority vote does not make lies become truths.

Democracy will always succumb to the worst of mankinds attributes: Fear of independant thought and fear of only depending on one's own effort.

[Jason McCullough]

Interesting, thanks.

[bmulligan]

OK enough of this word replacement crap---I'd like to ban the banning of the word ban. Or maybe ban your balls with my foot. Or maybe banning your balls with my anus would be more enjoyable.

[Brian Koontz]

The story of Asian Americans is a complicated one. My wife teaches this stuff, but she's not here, so...

Nice post. The "foreign protector" concept is a new one to me and its interesting.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

I find it hard to believe you are defending the concept of Democracy...
What would you propose as an alternative?

[bmulligan]

How about a constitutionally protected, representative republic. It's what we are supposed to have here, unfortunately the myth of democracy has been drilled into the american psyche for decades. Democracy is just as evil as despotism because it's what it will eventually become.

[The Narrator]

He tried his best to stay out of it. He hoped that the thread would quickly die and drift away to another page. But its popularity continued to torment Cleve. It was just too much for him, constantly seeing the words "black," "man" and "pole" so close together.

[Brad Grenz]

Maybe if he cut his thing off with garden shears like that guy on Springer...

[ydejin]

Adding on to TSGs post, the situation with Asians in this country is absolutely not comparable to that of the African Americans. It certainly is true that Asians faced considerable amounts of discrimination particularly pre-civil rights movement as TSG has noted. However, the vast majority of Asians actually arrived post civil-rights movement.

Living in California, I have a lot of Asian friends. I know only two Chinese who are fourth generation (whose families arrived in ~1900) and no Chinese whose families have been here longer (so no one whose families have been here from the railroad days). Almost all my Asian friends are either first generation or second generation (their families probably arrived in the late 60's or later). My Japanese friends have older family histories and I have quite a few whose parents were interned during WW2. There are virtually no Koreans or Vietnamese whose families have been here more than one to two generations. From what I've read the demographics of my friends roughly matches the national demographics.

This is important for several reasons. First, while some discrimination does continue, the bulk of Asians arrived after the worst discrimination occurred (I would also say that only a small amount of workplace discrimination occurs against Asians, while much more occurs against African Americans). Second most of the newer Asian immigrants (with the exception of the Vietnamese) come from middle or upper-middle class families. They don't have to overcome the poverty background of many African Americans. They immigrated here with education and monetary resources. You'll note that the Vietnamese haven't done as well as other Asian immigrant groups, which I would argue happens largely because they tended to come from more impoverished backgrounds (or at least backgrounds in which their family lost everything in the Vietnam war).

I do agree that there are many negative aspects of "mainstream" African American culture which are not helpful. However, African Americans do have disadvantages that the rest of us do not face. The closest group comparably is probably the Latino population. But I think Latinos face less overt racism. If we want to see the kind of overt racism African Americans face, we need look no further than Cleve and hermy's posts here on Qt3. Even for someone from a good family background with a strong self-identity and strong sense of self-worth, putting up with that kind of racist bullsh*t on a regular basis has got to wear a man down. In addition to the simple erosion of self-worth that that kind of crap causes, I think it's safe to say that someone that posts those type of posts to Qt3 will also do their best to subvert African Americans in the workplace. Virulent racists may not constitute the bulk of the American population, but there are certainly enough Cleves and hermys out there to have a negative effect on African Americans in the workplace (and to reinforce the negative aspects of African American culture that have been discussed in other posts here).

[Brian Koontz]

I do agree that there are many negative aspects of "mainstream" African American culture which are not helpful. However, African Americans do have disadvantages that the rest of us do not face.

As far as economic disadvantage, weren't almost all of the settlers from the mid 19th century and before (white settlers) very poor? I keep having this vision of people scraping together money for their trip to America, where it was the "Land of Opportunity". The idea was to make money AFTER arriving, not to haul a lot of it with you. African Americans faced severe social disadvantages in times of slavery and lesser ones beyond, but I'm not sure how effective that argument is for today's blacks.

The people who arrived in the *best* economic condition I believe are recent Asian and European immigrants... especially in association with entry into American Universities.

[Jason McCullough]

Blacks have the lowest wealth of any group because they didn't really get a chance to start building it until the 1940s. They obviously couldn't accumulate squat (and hand it down - hey estate tax argument people) while slaves, and had lots of roadblocks in the Jim Crow era.

[Dirt]

"This is important for several reasons. First, while some discrimination does continue, the bulk of Asians arrived after the worst discrimination occurred (I would also say that only a small amount of workplace discrimination occurs against Asians, while much more occurs against African Americans). Second most of the newer Asian immigrants (with the exception of the Vietnamese) come from middle or upper-middle class families. They don't have to overcome the poverty background of many African Americans. They immigrated here with education and monetary resources. You'll note that the Vietnamese haven't done as well as other Asian immigrant groups, which I would argue happens largely because they tended to come from more impoverished backgrounds (or at least backgrounds in which their family lost everything in the Vietnam war)."

BS. Most if not all the Chinese that came to the US prior to 1985 came here with almost no monetary resources, only an education. An education that all African Americans post civil rights have access to. Yet, these Chinese have already thrived (as have the Koreans). And the landscape of the Chinese that currently reside in the US is different now as well, most come from Mainland China where they've experienced poverty and repression (from the government) far worse than 90% of the current African American population. Yet, many of those Mainland Chinese are already climbing the social ladder with no end in sight (it's only been 10 years since they've started coming over). This is all cultural, Chinese have been taught for thousands of years that no matter what strata of society you come from, if you study and work hard, you too can be rich and powerful. The latinos and the blacks don't have this background. They need to be taught this, for this idea to be forced down their throats. I'll admit that the Vietnamese (and many of the other South East Asians) are slower in climbing the ladder but they too are doing so.

[ydejin]

I do agree that there are many negative aspects of "mainstream" African American culture which are not helpful. However, African Americans do have disadvantages that the rest of us do not face.

As far as economic disadvantage, weren't almost all of the settlers from the mid 19th century and before (white settlers) very poor? I keep having this vision of people scraping together money for their trip to America, where it was the "Land of Opportunity". The idea was to make money AFTER arriving, not to haul a lot of it with you. African Americans faced severe social disadvantages in times of slavery and lesser ones beyond, but I'm not sure how effective that argument is for today's blacks.

The people who arrived in the *best* economic condition I believe are recent Asian and European immigrants... especially in association with entry into American Universities.

Agreed. Most of the whites who came during the last great immigration wave were very poor, and they faced considerable discrimination when they got here. I was watching the Godfather the other night and was very struck by the discrimination against the Italians (yes I do know it's just a movie, but I suspect that at least in this area it was quite accurate -- Italians were looked down on, as were Eastern Europeans and Irish). I think it's very interesting (and actually a rather hopeful sign) that there is virtually no discrimination against these groups anymore (at least among the college educated population, I suppose we might find discrimination if we looked hard enough -- I wouldn't be suprised to find out the KKK still had it out for non-WASPs). Unfortunately as we can see from Cleve and a handful of other Qt3 posters, that is still not the case with African Americans.

My point wasn't that the blacks alone faced deep entrenched poverty, it was that the previous comparisons between the African Americans and Asian Americans were very unfair. The Asian American situation was much better than that of the African Americans.

BS. Most if not all the Chinese that came to the US prior to 1985 came here with almost no monetary resources, only an education. An education that all African Americans post civil rights have access to. Yet, these Chinese have already thrived (as have the Koreans). And the landscape of the Chinese that currently reside in the US is different now as well, most come from Mainland China where they've experienced poverty and repression (from the government) far worse than 90% of the current African American population. Yet, many of those Mainland Chinese are already climbing the social ladder with no end in sight (it's only been 10 years since they've started coming over). This is all cultural, Chinese have been taught for thousands of years that no matter what strata of society you come from, if you study and work hard, you too can be rich and powerful. The latinos and the blacks don't have this background. They need to be taught this, for this idea to be forced down their throats. I'll admit that the Vietnamese (and many of the other South East Asians) are slower in climbing the ladder but they too are doing so.

Dirt, you must hang out with a different crowd than I do. I've spent time with literally hundreds of Asians. They are all college educated and are generally professionals so I admit this may have biased my sample--I do know that there is a population of poor Asians who have been smuggled into the country and are working in sweat shops, and I admit I don't have any contact with them. A plurality of my Asian friends are of Chinese ancestry. While I don't know all their family backgrounds, I don't know of any of them that came from a background of abject poverty. Yes, I know that the coolies came from poor backgrounds, but as I previously noted, I only know of two Chinese whose families have been here since 1900 and that is still post coolie. I was trying to keep my ethnicity out of this, but just for the record, one of those two families is mine. My mother's family arrived in ~1900. They might have been poor, we've never really talked about it. My father came during WW II. His family was quite wealthy. I presume other Chinese arrived at the same time (his family sent him here to escape the Japanese) and I presume that like him, the majority of those who arrived at that time were well off--which puts a bit of a hole into your pre-1985 claim.

The vast majority of my friends of Chinese ancestry come from upper-middle class or middle class backgrounds. Many of the Chinese I know grew up here as Parachute Kids (for those of you not familiar with the term that means their parents left them here alone in the US to get a good education while the parents continued to live in Asia). It takes a family with real financial resources to pull of the Parachute plan because that means you not only need to have a house in Asia for the parents but you also need to buy one here in the US in a good school district for the kids.

I should note that most of the first and second generation Chinese I know of don't actually come from Mainland China (only the older families like mine did). A handful of my first and second generation friends are from the mainland and they are all college educated and arrived here either for grad school or already with professional degrees which gives them a huge advantage regardless of their financial resources when they come over. Most of my Chinese friends come from Taiwan or Singapore, or Hong Kong. However, if the point of this discussion is to compare Asian Americans and African Americans, I don't think most Americans are distinguishing between exactly where Asian Americans come from. Like bmulligan and others they are simply pointing to Asians and saying, why aren't blacks as succesful as the Asians are. So for those purposes I think we need to lump all the Asians together.

I agree that Asian's emphasis on education has helped them rise and it would be very good if we could get a similar emphasis in the African American and Latino communities (and for that matter in the Caucasian communities). Although I do think it can be taken too far--the amount of pressure many Asian parents put on their kids is very unhelpful.

Dirt, I may be wrong, but your post comes across as basically parroting the propaganda our parents have shoved on us, telling us how wonderful Asian values are and how much our race has overcome. I think they have a tendency to exagerate (I don't know if this is an Asian thing or if all parents do this) I know for example when I was growing up my parents insisted that we were not rich in spite of the fact that they owned multiple houses and condos. The fact of the matter is from a monetary standpoint, the Asian immigrants are probably in the best position of any other major immigrant group. Yes, that wasn't true in the long ago past, but frankly I think your 1985 number is way, way off--maybe if you moved it back to 1880 or 1900 or 1920 then yes Asian immigrants were poor, but not 1985.

[Dirt]

I'm too tired to post a long reply. I'm talking about the Chinese who came between 1970 to 1985 (an admittedly small group). Post 1985, you have more people from Mainland China and also the group of people who came to live here without their parents (a group of people who experienced an alarmingly high suicide rate). Anyways, I can see where we differ, we are different generation immigrants.

[bmulligan]

don't forget about 'indentured servitude'. It was nice term for slavery for some irish who willingly gave up their freedom to come to America. Does that make them stupider than the blacks who were taken by force?

[Jason McCullough]

Is a half-generation of slavery the same as 10?

[MathGoddess]

[quote="Brian KoontzAfrican Americans faced severe social disadvantages in times of slavery and lesser ones beyond, but I'm not sure how effective that argument is for today's blacks.
quote]

There's a town in Georgia that didn't integrate schools until the 1990s. Here in SC, many public schools weren't integrated until the 1970s. We've only taken down the confederate flag in the past five years. Have a chain of barbeque restaurants where the owner sells "literature" saying slavery was a good thing for blacks.

I'm not saying there aren't a number of people who will cheerfully blame others for their failure to do well, but Jim Crow didn't die out a long time ago.

[bmulligan]

Oh boo hoo. Yeah, there's still racism in the world. There are still racists. The nice thing about America is that you can ignore the assholes and say F-U to everybody else who doesn't like you. Now, I know some of you will cry: "but I can't go to a good college because I'm black" or "I came from a disadvantaged home". Big freaking deal. There are good black colleges. there are good black neighborhoods, move there if you want it better. Other minority groups actually stick together. The arabs who come here get help from their own group. The koreans do it too. They help each other. They loan new families money. They let others live with them until they get on their feet. They are organized. They consider it shameful to accept welfare. Blacks are taught that the government is the one that owes them, thank you Jessie Jackson.

Jim Crow will NEVER die, just fon't let it get in your way and don't use it as an excuse.