Hey Epic! PC gaming not dead after all! (The Witcher sells 600k in three months)

[Dave Long]

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9119&Itemid=2

“Our goal was—and still is—to reach 1 million copies sold during the first year. 600,000 games sold in just three months brings us much closer to this ambitious goal,” said Adam Kiciński, CEO of Warsaw, Poland-based CD Projekt RED, developers of The Witcher.

Kiciński added in a statement, “Our plans include continuous game support, the release of the powerful D’jinni module editor, the continued release of game updates and patches, and in late spring gamers can expect a pretty big surprise, which will be revealed at a press conference really soon–February 18th!”

My apologies to Equisilus (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=1249156&postcount=837) but this deserved its own thread.

[Adam B]

Look, I'm happy for The Witcher and all, but 600k in 3 months worldwide isn't going to convince anyone to come back to the PC.

[Pishtaco]

Look, I'm happy for The Witcher and all, but 600k in 3 months worldwide isn't going to convince anyone to come back to the PC.

There are plenty of people making PC games. I'm hoping that the success of the Witcher convinces people to make them more polished.

[Rob_Merritt]

I wonder what the ratio of boobies vs non-boobies editions sold is?

[JD]

Hey Epic! PC gaming not dead after all! (The Witcher sells 600k in three months)
Of course, roughly 50 - 70 percent of that was sold in Poland and other countries in Eastern Europe. Good for CD Projekt. For a Western company that's not really overly profitable because the margin is way lower. Example: A new game costs about $2 to 4 in Russia. Selling 100,000 copies in that country isn't the same as selling 100,000 copies in the US, UK or Germany for a company that just pumped $8m or more into a project.

-Julian

[Cronox]

There are plenty of people making PC games. I'm hoping that the success of the Witcher convinces people to make them more polished.

I love The Witcher and am very pleased it’s doing well but I don’t think polished is a word that should be associated with it.

[Pishtaco]

Of course, roughly 50 - 70 percent of that was sold in Poland and other countries in Eastern Europe. Good for CD Projekt. For a Western company that's not really overly profitable because the margin is way lower. Example: A new game costs about $2 to 4 in Russia. Selling 100,000 copies in that country isn't the same as selling 100,000 copies in the US, UK or Germany for a company that just pumped $8m or more into a project.

-Julian

Games here in the Czech Republic cost about the same as in the UK. I just looked up the Witcher, and it looks like the price in Poland is about $40.

[Wheelkick]

Toronto is in Czechoslovakia?

[André Costa]

Games here in the Czech Republic cost about the same as in the UK. I just looked up the Witcher, and it looks like the price in Poland is about $40.

Same as in other european countries. Julian's point is still valid despite this.

EDIT: maybe Tom Ohle can give us some idea on the numbers?

[Cronox]

Same as in other european countries. Julian's point is still valid despite this.

How? His point was that games cost less in Poland and other eastern European countries, which is appears isn’t true (or at least isn’t true for some of them).

[Naeblis]

40$ is not 2-4$. Also, i doubt that's the price of new games in Russia.

[Tom Ohle]

Yeah, Russia is about the only territory that I know of where the game cost significantly less.

[Robert Sharp]

Yeah, but was it really only 2-4 dollars? That's a ridiculous figure.

Also, Witcher may not be overly polished, but it's success is a sign that at least worldwide games of that sort can be moderately successful. With MORE polish, it might be even more successful.

As for U.S. sales, word of mouth has helped, but it didn't really get a marketing blitz over here. I have students that play video games and when I tell them I'm playing Witcher, they've never even heard of it.

[Tom Ohle]

Yeah, but was it really only 2-4 dollars? That's a ridiculous figure.

Also, Witcher may not be overly polished, but it's success is a sign that at least worldwide games of that sort can be moderately successful. With MORE polish, it might be even more successful.

As for U.S. sales, word of mouth has helped, but it didn't really get a marketing blitz over here. I have students that play video games and when I tell them I'm playing Witcher, they've never even heard of it.

Yep, there was definitely a lot that could have been done better. Who knows, maybe we'll have a shot at redemption. As for the cost in Russia, not 100% sure, but I believe it's under 10 bucks. Gotta keep prices low enough that the black-market games, which are not much less than that, aren't a viable option.

[Marcin]

I just checked Witcher on the Polish online store and it's $34.

Mind you, piracy is way more out of control there than here, although at least they're shutting down the brick & mortar pirate outlets (yes, they existed).

[Robert Sharp]

Yep, there was definitely a lot that could have been done better. Who knows, maybe we'll have a shot at redemption. As for the cost in Russia, not 100% sure, but I believe it's under 10 bucks. Gotta keep prices low enough that the black-market games, which are not much less than that, aren't a viable option.

That sucks. Because of the black market, you can't make a profit there.

Oh, and the polish thing isn't a huge deal. I think it's a wonderful game and you guys did a fantastic job with it. I just want to clarify that. I'm desperately hoping for a sequel, and I hope the numbers will justify it.

[Dravalen]

The thing is these days with a decent size team you need to sell a million over lifetime just to break even. I love the Witcher and think it's an awesome game, however the numbers just aren't there in the PC market these days for traditional style games. That's not to say that it can't be done, just that the market is shifting IMO.

[Tom Ohle]

That sucks. Because of the black market, you can't make a profit there.

Oh, and the polish thing isn't a huge deal. I think it's a wonderful game and you guys did a fantastic job with it. I just want to clarify that. I'm desperately hoping for a sequel, and I hope the numbers will justify it.

One other thing to remember is that CDP isn't relying on profit from the first game to justify a sequel; the publishing business can support the dev studio in perpetuity, but obviously we'll want to be profitable as soon as possible (might already be? I don't know how many copies we needed to sell to get out of the red on the project). The first goal is to make this a really strong brand. 600k copies in three months is solid, but now we're driving for a million. We'll do whatever we can to keep the game relevant so that more and more people find out about it.

[roguefrog]

Moar Witcher Please!

I forget, but was there a James Bond type thing at the end of the game saying something like "Geralt will return"

[JD]

Yeah, but was it really only 2-4 dollars?
Do you think I made that up? Go to one of the standard bazars in Moscow. There'll easily find an original version of the game right next to a pirated copy. The pirated copy - usually easy to spot since it's the English version - costs like 2-3 bucks, the original, localized version will costs $2-4. Many publishers really tried to go for the $20 to $40 approach for new games, and saw that nobody bought their titles at that price. So, even Western publishers caved in - EA being pretty much the last of them to follow - and lowered the price of their games down to that level.

-Julian

[Jasper]

Yeah, but was it really only 2-4 dollars? That's a ridiculous figure.
Piracy runs rampant in Russia, or at least in Moscow and St. Petersburg when last I was there (~9 years ago). I never could find a decent selection of PC games at retail, but every open air market seemed to have someone openly selling pirated versions for ~$4, IIRC.

[Hetzer]

Do you think I made that up? Go to one of the standard bazars in Moscow. There'll easily find an original version of the game right next to a pirated copy. The pirated copy - usually easy to spot since it's the English version - costs like 2-3 bucks, the original, localized version will costs $2-4. Many publishers really tried to go for the $20 to $40 approach for new games, and saw that nobody bought their titles at that price. So, even Western publishers caved in - EA being pretty much the last of them to follow - and lowered the price of their games down to that level.

-Julian

How does ea expect to get 20-40$ in russia? people dont earn enough to spend that sum... i you want to deal there you have to take what you get not what you want...

[Cronox]

Do you think I made that up? Go to one of the standard bazars in Moscow. There'll easily find an original version of the game right next to a pirated copy. The pirated copy - usually easy to spot since it's the English version - costs like 2-3 bucks, the original, localized version will costs $2-4. Many publishers really tried to go for the $20 to $40 approach for new games, and saw that nobody bought their titles at that price. So, even Western publishers caved in - EA being pretty much the last of them to follow - and lowered the price of their games down to that level.

-Julian

I don’t doubt this but surely at some level it just becomes pointless to release the game in a region like that. For say EA, once they factor in just the cost of a single copy (burning the disc, printing the manual and cover, distribution) plus retailer mark-up how much money would they actually make per $2-4 sale? That’s without even factoring in things like a the cost of a localised version or localised support.

[Tom Ohle]

I don’t doubt this but surely at some level it just becomes pointless to release the game in a region like that. For say EA, once they factor in just the cost of a single copy (burning the disc, printing the manual and cover, distribution) plus retailer mark-up how much money would they actually make per $2-4 sale? That’s without even factoring in things like a the cost of a localised version or localised support.

The price of packaging is also lower in Russia -- you don't get a full box and all that jazz, from what I understand (which is admittedly little, just gathered from discussions with people at CDP)

[JD]

The price of packaging is also lower in Russia -- you don't get a full box and all that jazz, from what I understand
That would be correct. It's usually nothing but a jewel case or DVD box, and if you're lucky, a small manual. A publisher still can make 10 to 50 cents per box that way, and a good game can sell 200,000 and upwards in Russia. That's not enough money for a Western publisher to finance a bigger production - hey, that's what the other markets are for - but it's still better than getting no money at all in case people just get the pirated version.

-Julian

[Aeon221]

The price of packaging is also lower in Russia -- you don't get a full box and all that jazz, from what I understand (which is admittedly little, just gathered from discussions with people at CDP)

So... wait... if they cut out all the box crap we could get games for 2-4$?

[JD]

So... wait... if they cut out all the box crap we could get games for 2-4$?
No, not in the Western market. Distribution, marketing and manufacturing costs are higher. Of course, at some point a game hits the low budget range - let's say $ to 10 - and then this is what they're doing.

I know a few companies that actually tried the "lower price = higher sales?" approach, but it didn't work out well for them because people expect a $20 title to be crap.

-Julian

[AndrewM]

I love The Witcher and am very pleased it’s doing well but I don’t think polished is a word that should be associated with it.

Maybe he meant that games should be more Polish-ed.

[Pishtaco]

I love The Witcher and am very pleased it’s doing well but I don’t think polished is a word that should be associated with it.

Sorry, I meant compared to all the other interesting, but disappointingly unfinished, PC games from Eastern Europe that you hear about.

[jpinard]

Umm, so those pirated copies are not figured into the sales.

So considering that no one in Poland or Russia is buying real copies - but cheap knockoffs - then it seems the WItcher is doing pretty darn good.

[Tim Partlett]

In Hungary the prices of games as the same as Germany, maybe even a little more expensive.

How does ea expect to get 20-40$ in russia? people dont earn enough to spend that sum... i you want to deal there you have to take what you get not what you want...

Plenty of people in Russia can afford those kinds of prices. That's why the cost of living in Moscow is one of the highest in the world. The wealth is divided very unevenly. It's like in Hungary: they may earn on average half what a German does, but there are many people in Budapest with as much money as the average German. And Hungary has one of the narrowest wealth gaps in the world... unlike Russia.

[MyNameIsWill]

Guitar Hero 3 did this in a day, in the US. No biggie. ;)

[roguefrog]

For a foreign developed PC-only single player computer role playing game, it is great.

[Hetzer]

In Hungary the prices of games as the same as Germany, maybe even a little more expensive.



Plenty of people in Russia can afford those kinds of prices. That's why the cost of living in Moscow is one of the highest in the world. The wealth is divided very unevenly. It's like in Hungary: they may earn on average half what a German does, but there are many people in Budapest with as much money as the average German. And Hungary has one of the narrowest wealth gaps in the world... unlike Russia.

Yeah i hear you but in gamesales some (who are able to pay) are not important, most (who are willing to play) are important...

[Desslock]

For a foreign developed PC-only single player computer role playing game, it is great.

I love The Witcher, and am very happy it's doing well, but your statement isn't true -- the sales of The Witcher in North America are a small fraction of total sales, so it's not doing particularly well as a "foreign developed pc-only single player RPG". It's doing better than the Gothics, which is a positive trend, but the sales trends are basically the same -- all those games did well in Europe, not so well in North America.

[Tom Ohle]

I love The Witcher, and am very happy it's doing well, but your statement isn't true -- the sales of The Witcher in North America are a small fraction of total sales, so it's not doing particularly well as a "foreign developed pc-only single player RPG". It's doing better than the Gothics, which is a positive trend, but the sales trends are basically the same -- all those games did well in Europe, not so well in North America.

Give us time! :)

[Hetzer]

Give us time! :)

Why? we are perfectly happy with good sales of good games here and the rest could sell well to the americuns... ;)

[CustodianV131]

Do you think I made that up? Go to one of the standard bazars in Moscow. There'll easily find an original version of the game right next to a pirated copy. The pirated copy - usually easy to spot since it's the English version - costs like 2-3 bucks, the original, localized version will costs $2-4. Many publishers really tried to go for the $20 to $40 approach for new games, and saw that nobody bought their titles at that price. So, even Western publishers caved in - EA being pretty much the last of them to follow - and lowered the price of their games down to that level.

-Julian

So if piracy gets worse, the prices go down.... hmmm That's a nice signal to give

I wonder or they even bother with any copy protection over there. Might have to move :)

[Draikin]

Obsidian and CDProject are alone in the "good RPG" market, of course it's going to sell.

If journalists did their job and rated this game 90%+ like it deserves, it would be a million seller already.

[chet]

I would question JD's $2 copies of valid games. Pirated copies can be fancy pirated copies.

We sell in Russia, we sell well in Russia, we charge a hell of a lot more than $2.

[Rob_Merritt]

I would question JD's $2 copies of valid games. Pirated copies can be fancy pirated copies.

We sell in Russia, we sell well in Russia, we charge a hell of a lot more than $2.

I read somewhere that counter strike was the biggest selling game in Russa for a couple of years. So i imagine Valve does very well but I wonder if the luxury games market exist much beyond that?

[MyNameIsWill]

How much? How well?

[Steel_Wind]

Guitar Hero 3 did this in a day, in the US. No biggie. ;)

Well, in fairness, Guitar Hero has "so what" sales numbers that it entitle it to give a wink and a nod to all but a handful of products - in any market. In fact, there is a good argument to be made that GH as a franchise is about the only thing on the market right now that has WoW like potential.

None of that detracts from the success of The Witcher a first effort PC only RPG game in a marketplace where it is very difficult to succeed - let alone at your first "at bat". Piracy is a real force in Eastern Europe - and the success of The Witcher there speaks to CDP's deep understanding of their local market.

The numbers should have been better in North America. With a Xbox 360 version of the game - I believe that it could easily sell another million in North America without breaking a sweat.

That does not discount the long term success of the PC version of the game either, which has more gas in the tank. I think the North American numbers show there is significant potential still for the game to find new players here.

[MyNameIsWill]

Selling a million, even on the 360, is actually quite hard. Not very many games do it.

In any case, I was mostly joking (to go along with my other anti-PC gaming posts). 600K is a solid sales figure.

[Brendan]

It's good to hear CDP are getting the sales they deserve. With the Americans giving up on PC gaming, I'm glad that Eastern Europeans are willing to fill the void.

There are still masses of PC gamers out there and we will buy good games.

Also, if Western polish means games being released in the state NWN2 was, I'll take Eastern polish every day of the week.

One more thing. CDP did a much better job upgrading the original NWN engine for The Witcher than the Obsidian crew did for NWN2.

[Desslock]

If journalists did their job and rated this game 90%+ like it deserves, it would be a million seller already.

I did my part (and gave it PCG's RPG of the Year), somehow it didn't make it anyway. Game reviews have minimal impact on sales. Movies are an even better example of how review scores are irrelevant.

[Destarius]

Of course, roughly 50 - 70 percent of that was sold in Poland and other countries in Eastern Europe. Good for CD Projekt. For a Western company that's not really overly profitable because the margin is way lower. Example: A new game costs about $2 to 4 in Russia. Selling 100,000 copies in that country isn't the same as selling 100,000 copies in the US, UK or Germany for a company that just pumped $8m or more into a project.

-Julian

Where did you get the $2 to $4 figure from?

Even in Asia, at a time when piracy was totally rampant, almost all games did not retail for less than US$30-40.

[JD]

Where did you get the $2 to $4 figure from?
Well, I've been to Moscow, although not recently, and I also know some people who often work there or travel to shows like GDC Russia and the like. It's always a pleasure to check out whatever obscure games (that usually not make it to the Western market) they bring back then. :)

-Julian

[Alistair]

I was in Bulgaria a few years ago and there were stalls on the main streets with knock-off games for a few dollars. Nothing like 30-40.

[Qenan]

Dumb question: Why do PC games sell so much better in Europe?

[JD]

Dumb question: Why do PC games sell so much better in Europe?
1. EU > NA in terms of population.
2. PC (and earlier: C64, Amiga 500 and Atari ST) used to be the preferred platform for gaming in most countries - with the UK probably being the only exception.
3. The PC market is a lot bigger in Eastern Europe - consoles aren't that established there (yet).
4. PC games made in Europe have a hard time in the US for a variety of reasons, which often is a result of the publishing/distribution situation.

[Quitch]

We don't fear complexity... and we're both smarter and better looking.

[Robert Sharp]

I think 4 is the biggest problem. I don't understand why these games like Witcher and Gothic aren't distributed better over here. I suppose it's a vicious circle. Publishers are afraid they won't sell well so they don't hype or distribute them as much. Thus they don't sell very well. It sucks though because I want to make sure these games keep coming to the U.S. Are there some good games that never made it?

[Steel_Wind]

One more thing. CDP did a much better job upgrading the original NWN engine for The Witcher than the Obsidian crew did for NWN2.

Yes they did.

Overall, The graphics engine in The Witcher is much more evolutionary in its approach than NWN2's Electron was. Electron was clearly a "clean break" approach in terms of much of its design. The Witcher's new Aurora is Aurora in an evolved form. The underlying file structures remain through much of it.

There is a great strength in the evolutionary approach when it comes to modeling and creating new material for the game. NWN had a large modder fanbase which will be much more comfortable modeling for The Witcher than they have been for NWN2. And the fact that The Witcher did not go the Granny route does not hurt either.

I would give the nod to NWN2 in one respect however - it has superior lighting and far more accessible lighting controls. NWN2 clearly wins this aspect of the engine wars. Lightmapping models directly in 3dsmax in The Witcher makes up for the disadvantage, in part. More fairly stated, NWN2's lighting is a toolset solution, whereas The Witcher goes for a customized 3dsmax solution.

Less important is that NWN2 also has a larger comfortable clipping distance. The short clipping distances in The Witcher, which come to the attention of the player in Act IV, really do seem a little small. The player never notices this in the gloom and close distances in the prologue and first three Acts in the game. Act IV in The Witcher comes along with the sun shining and the world seems very small indeed all of a sudden.

The Witcher uses an engine made for gothic gloom, not sunny adventuring days :)

[JD]

So, according to this website (http://gameplay.com.ua/node/1003763), S.T.A.L.K.E.R. sold (shipped, I guess) 1,65m copies worldwide. 950,000 in the CIS, 700 in the rest of the world.

-Julian

[malkav11]

1. EU > NA in terms of population.
2. PC (and earlier: C64, Amiga 500 and Atari ST) used to be the preferred platform for gaming in most countries - with the UK probably being the only exception.
3. The PC market is a lot bigger in Eastern Europe - consoles aren't that established there (yet).
4. PC games made in Europe have a hard time in the US for a variety of reasons, which often is a result of the publishing/distribution situation.

Consoles experience delayed or nonexistent releases in Europe (and the rest of that region code, including Australia, New Zealand, and so forth) plus generally being substantially more expensive. I suspect part of it is that companies don't want to try and localize for the dozen or more languages that are spoken in the European territory, nor switch things up for the PAL format of television. And the relative lack of and expense of console games tends to contribute to European gamers not getting them. Or at least so I hear from my British and Australian friends.

[Cronox]

Consoles experience delayed or nonexistent releases in Europe (and the rest of that region code, including Australia, New Zealand, and so forth) plus generally being substantially more expensive. I suspect part of it is that companies don't want to try and localize for the dozen or more languages that are spoken in the European territory, nor switch things up for the PAL format of television. And the relative lack of and expense of console games tends to contribute to European gamers not getting them. Or at least so I hear from my British and Australian friends.

I think the cost of consoles and their games is a major element which is over looked. Look at the PS3 for example, not only did we have to wait months longer for it to be released but when it came out it retailed at US$924 here (in Australia), US$883 in the UK and US$887 in the rest of the EU. This was for the 60GB version with software BC only. Even now the 40GB, no BC version still costs US$640 here and US$568 in the UK. Here console games tend to have a RRP of US$92 although if you shop around a new release will set you back about US$74. A quick check at a few online stores seems to indicate that in the UK new games cost between US$60-80, which seems to have come down a bit over the past year.

All of this is based on the current exchange rates listed at www.xe.com

[Chris Nahr]

That is true. PCs and PC components usually track exchange rates quite closely, so they're just as cheap here as in America (plus sales tax). But console hardware tends to use the 1 US$ = 1 € pricing model, and it's worse outside the euro area. And at least in Germany, you can get the PC version of a game for about half the price of the PS3/360 version.

So if Dan Stapleton was living in Europe his claim about PC gaming being just as cheap as console gaming would actually be true. :)

[Cronox]

That is true. PCs and PC components usually track exchange rates quite closely, so they're just as cheap here as in America (plus sales tax). But console hardware tends to use the 1 US$ = 1 € pricing model, and it's worse outside the euro area. And at least in Germany, you can get the PC version of a game for about half the price of the PS3/360 version.

So if Dan Stapleton were living in Europe his claim about PC gaming being just as cheap as console gaming would actually be true. :)

That’s fairly true here too, PC games are far cheaper then the 360/PS3 versions of the same games and PC hardware is much closer to the actual exchange rate price. I assume this is primarily because you can’t region lock PC games (or hardware) so if their was much of a price difference people would just import them.

[Chris Nahr]

On the hardware side there's also lively competition to keep prices down. All 360s come from Microsoft and all PS3s come from Sony, but computer parts come from many different manfacturers, even video cards with the same chipset. If one tried to gouge customers like Sony & Microsoft do, many others would quickly take over its market share.

On the software side I don't think it's the possibility of imports as much as the reality of piracy that makes games cheap...

[Cronox]

On the hardware side there's also lively competition to keep prices down. All 360s come from Microsoft and all PS3s come from Sony, but computer parts come from many different manfacturers, even video cards with the same chipset. If one tried to gouge customers like Sony & Microsoft do, many others would quickly take over its market share.

No doubt that is a large part of it, although you could argue that MS and Sony (and Nintendo) are competing with each other. If one was to release their systems more in line with US prices I think that would give them a huge advantage.

[bago]

Here are three letters you have to learn. H. A. L.

Trying to run one API over 20 different hardware targets that may or may not work forcing your HAL to fix the frickin bugs is a HUGE encumberment.

Lets ship in three months but blow our test budget on all PC permutations, drivers, and hal is not a wise judgrmrnt.

[intruder]

We don't fear complexity... and we're both smarter and better looking.

Quoted for truth.
Keep your Xbox 360 with your kiddy games over the pond!

[unbongwah]

I've seen what passes for "fun" (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/370645.asp) in Germany. I'll stick to my mindless kiddie konsole games.

Plus at least we get to keep our bloody violence. Yum!

[Our fear of girl-nipples, I'll concede, is harder to defend.]

[Matt Perkins]

Does it really matter to publishers where they get their sales, as long as they get them? I'd think not.

I'm incredibly happy for CDP because that means I'll see more Witcher games, which is what I really want. :)