The Unthinkable - Gametap cans Derek Smart

[flyinj]

I was amazed a few months ago that Gametap (or any other publisher, for that matter) would ever sign this guy again.

Well, I guess they learned their lesson:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17391

February 14, 2008

GameTap Cancels Galactic Command Publishing Deal

GameTap Cancels Galactic Command Publishing Deal When Gamasutra recently spoke to GameTap content VP Ricardo Sanchez to discuss his advice on the episodic content trend, we also got the opportunity to ask the exec at the Turner-owned PC game subscription service a few questions about the state of its union and its future plans.

Sanchez is pleased with the performance of Sam & Max and very enthusiastic about the upcoming unveiling of American McGee's Grimm. But last year, GameTap announced it would bring Derek Smart's Galactic Command: Echo Squad to the series -- and when we asked him how that game was coming, we learned that it actually isn't.

"It was a good game, it was very solid, but as we were going through, it ended up not being the right title for our audience," says Sanchez. "It was a tough call. I think it’s one of the strongest games ever made. We put a lot of effort into it... I honestly think it's one of Derek’s strongest games."

So why kibosh it? Sanchez says ultimately his team decided the space shooter just wasn't the best fit for GameTap's somewhat more casual audience. "We could put a lot of promos behind it, but it wouldn’t resonate too strongly with our audience... We thought it would succeed better with Derek's core base."

Smart still plans to release the game, Sanchez adds -- just not through GameTap. At the time the partnership was announced, Smart indicated he was hoping to bring the title to Xbox Live.

[UncleSmoothie]

GameTap hired Derek Smart?

[Munin]

So it's too complex for Gametap's casual audience but not too complex for Xbox Live? What?

[Charles]

Sanchez says ultimately his team decided the space shooter just wasn't the best fit for GameTap's somewhat more casual audience.

A Derek Smart game, too much for a casual audience? Unpossible!

[flyinj]

I can't believe he's going to try to get this game through MS cert.

Then again, I couldn't believe Two Worlds was going to try... and it made it... and look how that turned out.

I have a feeling that a Derek Smart 360 title will make Two Worlds look like Oblivion.

[quatoria]

That sounds like the polite, don't inflame the crazyman, don't get sued way of saying that Smart was way, way too hard to work with.

[Lucidvizion]

Derek Smart? Has this guy ever actually released a complete, finished game?

[stusser]

Never knew that they had hired him, but the denouement is hardly surprising.

[RichardC]

I think it’s one of the strongest games ever made.

Um...

[malkav11]

I think they probably meant "one of the strongest games *he's* ever made".

[Fugitive]

Y'know, despite all of the Derek Smart silliness, it always seemed like there was the kernel of a decent game in there somewhere, and that with enough development and polishing, you might actually have something good. Yet when I see something like Universal Combat (or whatever the latest iteration is) in the store, I still don't feel compelled to test that theory...

[Zep--]

I love Derek Smart Stories, I was doing some work at Take 2 when they canned him and *had to release his half assed shit to recoup their losses.

Zep--
*Yeah..they should have just sucked it up and ate the losses..but, ya know.

[stusser]

It's been a couple of years since he really publicly sounded off, I'm looking forward to the next "smart bomb".

[Marcin]

Here's some video from the "completed" game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtmtVgzdKFA). I dunno, looks ok if a bit in the European, X3-ish rough-around-the-edges, we-don't-really-know-how-to-do-space-combat way.

[Demon G Sides]

Derek Smart? Has this guy ever actually released a complete, finished game?

desktop commander.

[Thierry Nguyen]

All I think I can safely say is that I'm surprised people are picking up on this now, as I'm pretty sure both Derek and Rick (disclaimer: Rick is my boss' boss, but that doesn't mean I have insight into Gametap deals and whatnot) made statements about this topic back in mid-January.

[Sam Jones]

Here's some video from the "completed" game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtmtVgzdKFA). I dunno, looks ok if a bit in the European, X3-ish rough-around-the-edges, we-don't-really-know-how-to-do-space-combat way.

That looks fucking shit. Also, notice one of Derek's socks got the first and only comment.

Most importantly, have all fifty GALCOM fanboys over at the 3000AD forums cancelled their Gametap accounts in protest?

[Fugitive]

Here's some video from the "completed" game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtmtVgzdKFA). I dunno, looks ok if a bit in the European, X3-ish rough-around-the-edges, we-don't-really-know-how-to-do-space-combat way.
Man, I remember my first Pink Floyd laser light show...

[Desslock]

THQ needs to pay Interplay the $28.75 it'd require to reacquire the FreeSpace licence for Volition, and make a real space sim for the consoles.

[stusser]

The freespace license has no value. Hell I don't even think wing commander has much value anymore. They just need to make a space sim, period.

[Myth]

Most importantly, have all fifty GALCOM fanboys over at the 3000AD forums cancelled their Gametap accounts in protest?

I don't think that there are fifty of them left. Went to have a quick look at 3000ad.com which I haven't visited in a long time and was shocked by the lack of posts on the forums. What used to be small but dedicated lively community looks to be pretty much gone, with very few new posts. The whole site seems to be have redesigned, and looks like something someone in a high school html class threw together. The old one was very nice in comparison.

Kind of sad really but I guess we are seeing the cumulative effect of all that bad karma.

[schurem]

if they do want a license to back it (and i dont think thats a bad idea at all) they should have them totally games dudes re-do x-wing, tie-fighter and the rest of those, all the way up to x-wing alliance. Don't change a singly byte of their gameplay, just sex0r up the looks and they'd be golden.

[Charles]

That video doesn't look too bad. Sure it's a little oversaturated, but I can't begrudge someone their stylistic choices. Well, I can, but in this case, it doesn't bother me.

Looks like it actually has potential. If it does end up on XBL, it'll have to work on a gamepad, and that will keep Derek Smart's crazy complexity in line (hopefully).

[Charles]

THQ needs to pay Interplay the $28.75 it'd require to reacquire the FreeSpace licence for Volition, and make a real space sim for the consoles.

They could just port FS2, overhaul the controls, and it would sell a bajillion units, I know it.

[ciparis]

"It was a tough call. I think it’s one of the strongest games ever made."

Does not compute.

[Robert Sharp]

If you like Derek Smart stories just do a Qt3 search for any thread that he used to contribute to while he was a member here. Many were quite entertaining.

But Gametap has games like Shadow Magic, JA2, Tachyon (still?), etc. They aren't afraid of non-casual games. That excuse is BS.

[Desslock]

The freespace license has no value. Hell I don't even think wing commander has much value anymore. They just need to make a space sim, period.

I agree that the FreeSpace licence doesn't have meaningful name-brand recognition, which would translate to additional hype and brand-based purchased. But I strongly disagree that it doesn't have value - the story and setting were extremely strong and real strengths of the series; strengths which a new space sim would have difficulty recreating.

I actually think the Wing Commander 'universe' has a lot less creative value, since its world was pretty trite and easily recreated or replaced.

[John Reynolds]

I actually think the Wing Commander 'universe' has a lot less creative value, since its world was pretty trite and easily recreated or replaced.

Strange having played both series repeatedly that I so clearly recall details on the WC universe and damn few for Freespace.

[stusser]

Yep, me too. Wing commander had strong characters in Hobbes, Maniac, Angel, Paladin, that porno chick, etc. That's what gives it lasting value.

Really what we need is a sequel to tie/fighter, AAA, simultaneously released on 360, PS3, and PC with cross-platform multiplayer and fresh story-driven campaigns regularly released episodically. Ahhhhhhhh...

[Desslock]

Wing Commander was definitely more character-driven (you were a generic grunt in FreeSpace), but FreeSpace 2 had one of the best plots of any game I've ever played in any genre, let alone compared to other space sims - intelligent, adult, almost philosophical - with great alien designs, culture, intelligent perspective and motivations - creative brilliance, in my opinion.

I like the Wing Commander games (a lot), but they're more pulpy adventuring fun, with the Kilrathi as furry Klingon-rips and no real development to its world, technology, etc. Just fun games - FreeSpace 2 was art, and perhaps the best game I've ever played. I still play it every year or so, and there's maybe 2-3 other games I've played more than twice, and only about a dozen games that I've even replayed.

[MikeSofaer]

Kilrathi as furry Klingon-rips

Huh, I never thought of them as Klingon rips, I thought of them as Kzin rips.

Although Klingons and Kzin may not be totally creatively independent.

[Gordon Cameron]

The warlike-spacefaring-race stuff I guess they have in common, but yeah, Kilrathi are pretty clearly derived from Niven's Kzinti IMO. But then, "cat people" probably isn't such a rare idea that it might not appear independently from time to time.

[RichardC]

Wing Commander was definitely more character-driven (you were a generic grunt in FreeSpace), but FreeSpace 2 had one of the best plots of any game I've ever played in any genre, let alone compared to other space sims - intelligent, adult, almost philosophical - with great alien designs, culture, intelligent perspective and motivations - creative brilliance, in my opinion.

It's strange. While I remember really enjoying Freespace's story at the time, my memory draws a total blank on everything beyond a traitor character called Bosch, that first mission where the Shivans show up, the first proper nebula mission, and the names of the biggest ships. The rest just... whoosh.

Whereas I remember so much about Wing Commander, from taking a nuke to Ayer's Rock, to Jazz being the traitor of WC2, to Maniac's breakdown, to Vagabond's story, to the whole political arc of the fourth game, and the mere existence of Prophecy. Odd.

[Rob_Merritt]

Here's some video from the "completed" game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtmtVgzdKFA). I dunno, looks ok if a bit in the European, X3-ish rough-around-the-edges, we-don't-really-know-how-to-do-space-combat way.

Actually it didn't look too bad.

[NuclearWinter]

I remember when Crytek were developing a great looking space sim called Silent Space with semi-newtonian physics, no sounds in space (just the soundtrack and in-cockpit sounds), a focus on battles that use realistic military tactics (not that we actually have space battles in real life - I believe they were using naval tactics as a model?), in-depth space combat and what they described as a 'realistic war theme'.

Then Far Cry sold a fuck ton of copies and they canned their other projects (they were also working on a dark cyberpunk thriller called Engalus) to make sequels. Or they canned them to finish Far Cry? I don't remember exactly. Either way, no chance we'll see them now :(

[The Bird Flu]

Then Far Cry sold a fuck ton of copies and they canned their other projects (they were also working on a dark cyberpunk thriller called Engalus) to make sequels. Or they canned them to finish Far Cry? I don't remember exactly. Either way, no chance we'll see them now :(

Well that sucks. As much as I enjoyed Crysis (I didn't enjoy Far Cry), I would have much prefered a space sim. Bastards and their money!

I'd kill someone in front of their own mommy for Freelancer 2.

[NuclearWinter]

Ideally I'd want an I-War 3 or Freespace 3 (I'd say Elite 4 but I can only imagine it ending up a vast disappointment if it did happen), but I'd be happy to get a Freelancer 2. Hell, any decent, new space sim would be nice.

And yeah, I was always much more interested in Crytek's other projects than Far Cry/X-Isle.

[Aleck]

GameTap cans Derek Smart?!?!?

Queue breach of contract lawsuit in 3, 2, 1....

[Rob_Merritt]

GameTap cans Derek Smart?!?!?

Queue breach of contract lawsuit in 3, 2, 1....

I doubt it. He delivered it, it appears he got paid, just gametap decided not to put it up.

[Robert Sharp]

I'm not saying you are wrong, Rob, but that doesn't make any sense. If they already have the game, what would they lose by putting it up? They have some crappy games on there, already. So it's not a quality issue. They have plenty of less-casual gamers (you can tell by the ratings on some of the more complicated games), so their excuse doesn't sound right. The whole thing smells funny.

[Alan Dunkin]

According to Smart, it was all due to their inept marketing, complete with a great Smartism:

The bottom line, apart from the whole marketing thing is, they opted not to release it on the service (when they changed focus?) due it not (according to marketing) appealing to their more casual subscriber base. To be honest, on one hand, I can understand it. On the other hand, its crap. They [marketing] just didn't know how to market it. All they had to do was release it on the service and it wouldn't have cost them anything more as far as paying me was concerned.

--- Alan

[Sam Jones]

I'm not saying you are wrong, Rob, but that doesn't make any sense. If they already have the game, what would they lose by putting it up?

1) He delivers it.
2) They pay him.
3) It's shit, but they put it live anyway.
4) Approx five thousand support calls raised for Derek's latest broken game.
5) NO PROFIT!!!!!

[madkevin]

So people are finally paying Smart to not release games. That's what I call a win-win.

[Zylon]

Queue breach of contract lawsuit in 3, 2, 1....
"Cue".

(I feel so dirty)

[stusser]

The really funny part is that you know he's reading this thread, fuming, unable to reply.

[Robert Sharp]

"Cue".

(I feel so dirty)

Actually, I think in Derek's case, it really does go into a queue

[RichardC]

By this point he'd need to be the immortal guy from Life, The Universe and Everything, going through time to deal with everyone who ever existed, in alphabetical order.

[UncleSmoothie]

Alan, where did you pull that Derek quote from? I want to read more!

[Alan Dunkin]

http://www.3000ad.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46000002&st=40&p=162691&#entry162691

I pulled it from Blues News.

--- Alan

[Slainte Mhath]

So in 3000AD galactic space fighters will have cockpits mounted on giant springs, with pilots crucified to their seats like some sort of space-faring Jesus, and exhaust that shoots out the back like ribbons of orange and blue fruit-by-the-foot. Cool laser light shows will replace actual battles, and at intervals shit will blow up for no apparent reason.

Sign me up!

[Guido Jones]

Based on Derek's post, it sounds like Gametap just got out of the complicated game business - his game just got in the way.

It actually sounds like Gametap is fucked - drastic shift in priorties, throwing good money away on games you'll never release, etc.

[Thrag]

Based on Derek's post, it sounds like Gametap just got out of the complicated game business - his game just got in the way.

It actually sounds like Gametap is fucked - drastic shift in priorties, throwing good money away on games you'll never release, etc.

Meh, every business has failed projects. The difference between a well run business and a poorly run business is often that a well run business knows when to cut its losses. I wouldn't read much into this as far as Gametap is concerned just yet.

[flyinj]

Based on Derek's post, it sounds like Gametap just got out of the complicated game business - his game just got in the way.

It actually sounds like Gametap is fucked - drastic shift in priorties, throwing good money away on games you'll never release, etc.

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not.

Here's what I think happened:

They paid him for the game. He "finished" the game. It was buggy as hell, and unstable. GameTap told him to fix it. It was still buggy and unstable. GameTap says sorry, we're not giving you anymore money, and you can keep your game. Please don't call us.

[Robert Sharp]

I agree. That's what happened, most likely. Gametap has not really been shifting focus, as far as I can tell. Yes, they dropped a few games, somewhat inexplicably, but that was likely a licensing issue. They aren't shifting over to casual-only games. They'd lose half their customers.

[flyinj]

So, he somehow got GamersGate to publish and release his latest masterpiece.

And, as an added bonus, if you play it and think it's crap, he'll personally give you your money back and let you keep the game!


From Bluesnews:

Hump,

The public demo is coming sometime this month. We did a closed tech preview exclusive to IGN's FilePlanet subsscribers about two weeks ago and we got some very good feedback from that.

If you're a space sim fan, I think you'll like this one, but don't take my word for it. Wait for the demo.

In fact, here's my pledge to you: If you're a space sim fan, can't wait for the demo and you buy the game (Gamers Gate already has it online, Direct2Drive follows later today I think) but think its crap, I'm tits up and talking trash, I'll personally refund your money. And you still get to keep the game (i.e. I won't invalidate your DRM license on the server).

Of course, graphics don't make a game good, but anyone who says those graphics are 1999, needs to upgrade their XT. Yeah, I know, baiting is fun, but what the hell.

Here are some hi-def shots from the game. And thats with everything on. 1999. Yeah, right.

http://www.3000ad.com/pics/gcES/08-02-20/index.html

http://bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=85844

[UncleSmoothie]

Graphics are not everything (especially not in an underserved genre like space sims) but good lord that is one ugly game.

[Robert Sharp]

Yeah, it's rather surprising that he posted those as proof that the graphics AREN'T from 1999.

[stusser]

The art direction is fugly and garish. I know it's not, but it looks like EGA. Not 1999, 1989.

[Andrew Mayer]

It's like an open source Wing Commander remake.

[stusser]

It really does remind me of wing commander one.

[KallDrexx]

I like how even though the screen is more than half filled up with a the fake cockpit, they manage to make 90% of that cockpit not have any useful information, and then have to put information that you need outside of the decorative cockpit, thus wasting more space.

At first I thought it was to emulate a cockpit you see with ms flight simulator, except that ms flight simulator 1) emulates the real view you have when flying a real airplane and 2) has an array of instruments that is functionally useful to the flights. This has neither.

Boggles my mind that stuff like this gets funded (especially looking at Derek's game history) but the sim from the far cry studio doesn't.

[flyinj]

Boggles my mind that stuff like this gets funded (especially looking at Derek's game history) but the sim from the far cry studio doesn't.

I'm pretty sure that Derek is rich from family money or other means. He's been creating complete commercial bombs for about 20 years... and has gone through at least 5 publishers with 5+ iterations of the same broken concept.

He's not making any money on any of these, and must be losing a ton. The only way I can see publishers agreeing to put his stuff out is that he's covered all dev costs himself, making it seem like a good deal for the publisher... at the time. Then reality sets in when they box the thing with their name on it and put it on the shelf for unsuspecting consumers to purchase.

[MikeSofaer]

I also immediately thought of Wing Commander

I like how even though the screen is more than half filled up with a the fake cockpit, they manage to make 90% of that cockpit not have any useful information, and then have to put information that you need outside of the decorative cockpit, thus wasting more space.

This is part of it.

Also, you're always in a nebula, and spaceships can't engage each other at under 100m.

Somehow, those screenshots also indicate a single fixed frame of reference with a max speed relative to it.

If it has multiplayer, we should do a QT3 tournament of it.

[RichardC]

"Ask me for a refund... I DARE YOU!"

[David Erikson]

I'm pretty sure that Derek is rich from family money or other means. He's been creating complete commercial bombs for about 20 years... and has gone through at least 5 publishers with 5+ iterations of the same broken concept.

He's not making any money on any of these, and must be losing a ton. The only way I can see publishers agreeing to put his stuff out is that he's covered all dev costs himself, making it seem like a good deal for the publisher... at the time. Then reality sets in when they box the thing with their name on it and put it on the shelf for unsuspecting consumers to purchase.


I agree with your main points, although I think that Derek's concept is actually quite solid - it's his implementation that is really screwed up as well as his project management skills. I think if he would be given large pile of money (say 10 times his current game budget) and 5 years to develop his game, he has a potential to come up with a ultra hardcore simulator that many sci-fi nerds would love to play.

Of course the reality doesn't work this way, and Derek's personal skills (or lack of them) do not help much either. :)

[JMR]

He already had that chance and the end result was Battlecruiser 3000AD.

[Robert Sharp]

What he needs are programmers and artists. REAL programmers and artists. He can't code well enough. He's self taught, but he's the kind of person who would refuse good advice. Also, as mentioned, he has no ability to pull back his ambitions to a reasonable level. So he tries to do it all, even though he doesn't quite have the skills to even create a basic, non-ambitious sim.

It's a tragedy because the guy obviously has a lot of heart and passion for what he's trying to do. I actually enjoyed some of my conversations with him back when he posted here.

[Andrew Mayer]

It's a tragedy because the guy obviously has a lot of heart and passion for what he's trying to do. I actually enjoyed some of my conversations with him back when he posted here.

And as I've mentioned here before, he's an amiable guy in person.

[Peter Olafson]

Just a heads-up that Echo Squad turned up on the Gamer's Gate service this past week.

Peter

[JMR]

Demo is out (http://www.3000ad.com/site/gces2/)

Who wants to be the guinea pig?

[flyinj]

Demo is out (http://www.3000ad.com/site/gces2/)

Who wants to be the guinea pig?

I will.


Oh wait, I value my free time. Forget it.

[z0dd]

It's been a couple of years since he really publicly sounded off, I'm looking forward to the next "smart bomb".


Every time there is news on him or his games he always posts a wonderful nugget on these forums, as he did for the Galactic Command demo. Great stuff, I truly enjoy when he releases something.
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=85935

[Aeon221]

Frankly, if this were a run-of-the-mill fps shooter or one of the usual rubbish casual games, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But the bottomline is that this is a space game. A genre that every [mainstream] publisher just wants to see die. Despite the fact that the genre has a very large install base. All its going to take is one game to post high numbers and everyone will be flocking again to this once popular genre. I make no excuses for the rubbish that is the Wing Commander and Battlestar Galactica games on XBLA. Thats the direction because casual - even rubbish casual - is still casual. So that sort of crap will still get made. And by mainstream publishers who DO have the money to do this genre justice.

I, for one, am never - ever - going to let this genre die. Ever. I don't care if I'm the last man standing and the only one doing these games; as long as someone out there buys enough copies to make me enough money to afford future development, I'll make them. And if the install base drops and I can't make enough money on the games, I'll borrow the money and keep making these games. I will never quit. Ever.

Now that is just speshuuul!

[Tankero]

Well, fine. But where is my Freespace 3?

[flyinj]

Now that is just speshuuul!

So, is he going to quit?