Some More Console Games Worth Checking Out

[Anonymous]

Hi again! I figured I would drop by and post another list o console games worth checking out. Sure, they don't get many replies, but I just hope you are trying out some of these games instead of wasting your time replying to my post. Heeere we go!

The Misadventures of Tron Bonne - PSOne

A spin-off of the somewhat average Mega Man Legend titles, Tron Bonne goes the extra mile in terms of gameplay, awesome characters, and neat in game options that really give a sense of progress. The player takes control of the somewhat insane scientist girl, Tron Bonne. Along for the ride is her small army of ServBots (Kobun in Japan). You travel the lands searching ruins, robbing banks, running from cops, and doing all you can to raise the money required to save the day.

The game is separated into various missions, with time between each mission to research weapons, organized scouting parties, and interact with your ServBots in various activities such as training and research. The missions themselves range from action, to puzzle, to role-playing environments. Each posing unique mission goals. During missions you get to pilot a cool giant robot, with your Servbots tagging along. Using the Seeker Cannon, which comes default with your robot, you can command Servbots to interact with an item. For example if you target a car, the ServBots will steal the tires off the car that can later be used to cut down on weapon/armor/feature development costs. Riot cops getting you down thanks to their riot shields? Target them with the seeker cannon and the ServBots will steal the shields allowing you clean shots.

The levels are really interesting and keep things fresh, but perhaps the most interesting aspect of this title are the ServBots. Success in Tron Bonne requires interacting and tending to the needs of your helpers. Each have hidden desires and needs that can only be uncovered through talking to them, training them, and giving them items that fit their 40 different personalities. For example one ServBot who normally works in the tactical ops room wishes he could draw. While he SHOULD be working on the next mission (And Tron Bonne does scold him) if you recognize this ServBot's talent by giving him the Paint item you can find during the game, he opens up the option to paint the robot you use during your missions. You also get items that mark your favorite ServBot, opening up A LOT more cool mini games.

Training ServBots also opens up all kinds of mini-games that range from target type skills to reflex and memory skills.

The art, the animation, the levels, the mini-games, and the crazy ass amount of things to do in this game gets it a very high recommendation from me. Awesome Awesome game. Way to go Capcom!

ServBots Rock!

1943 - NES

I sure can talk about Capcom games huh? But how can I not, they put out so many awesome games. For those of you who haven't played 1943, shame on you. The follow up to the somewhat uninteresting 1942 shooter, 1943 offers up new weapons, better animation and visual quality, better music, and a new energy/super weapon system that added an awesome dynamic to the series. I personally think this is the best of the series. 19XX was ok I guess, but nothing else in the series really matched 1943. Oh yes it rocks.

So anyway you pilot a plane against various types of planes in a vertical shooter environment. Each level offers up a more difficult battleship/carrier to take out.

Simple as that.

The most "complex" aspect of 1943 is the energy system. Red planes drop power ups. Unlike 1942, the POW now stands for energy, while shooting the POW power up switches it to different weapon types. Energy allows you to take hits. Energy slowly drains away over time. Using your super weapon takes away energy quickly. Once the energy is gone, you can only take one hit, and then you are toast.

While some may argue 1942 is harder, I think it was harder for all the wrong reasons. Playing 1943 makes it easy to see that this is just a better game, and that's all there is to it. The energy system makes things interesting and adds something a little bit extra. For example some people like to risk it all and just collect the weapon power ups, while I personally grab POW almost all the time.

Great game. Check it out if you haven't played it. Revisit it if you have.


Rallisport Challenge - XBox

I usually don't like racing games. Crash Team Racing (which I love) is a Kart Racer so that might not count, but hey, I DID like the rally mode in Gran Turismo 3. "LIKE" being the important word there. While the Rally modes offered up something different from the street racing, the challenge just wasn’t there. A hard turn could almost ALWAYS be EASILY compensated for no matter what the surface, and the AI just wasn't aggressive at all.

Rallisport Challenge for the XBox does all of this right. Is it fair to compare? Not really. GT3 was never dedicated to the Rally mode, but I don't care. I needed a recent decent Rally example to compare to, and GT3 had it.

I won't go into the visuals too much, I will just say they are excellent. On to the gameplay. The reason RSC rocks is because different road types MATTER and I can't always just hard turn and compensate the same way everywhere. For example I have an easier time on ice/snow tracks than I do sand tracks since my tires dig in pretty bad on sand. Sure, this stuff isn't really that new, but it wasn't done well at ALL in Gran Turismo 3.

Sure, GT3 is a SIM, the whole package is I mean. But as far as the rally game goes, RSC does a much better job providing the driving experience that is the most sim-like. Outside of the race GT3 might win in the sim aspect, but during a race (when it most matters) RSC actually FEELS like it should. That wins points with me.

The tracks are also a lot nicer. I'm not talking pretty visuals, just layout. GT3's tracks felt like they were mostly constructed to look nice, while Rallisport Challenge's tracks feel like they were created to be challenging.

Really tho, racing AI is generally boring. If there was a better way to race against people, or just AI as competent as a person, I would be really happy. As it is the best 'racing' AI I have played against was in Crash Team Racing. To be fair, the AI in that game had a lot more at its disposal to be extremely competitive. The key however is that the AI is competitive without being cheap.

Anyway, Rallisport Challenge rocks sirs! Check it out!

[leedim]

And if you like 1943 and techno music (and come on, who doesn't?), give Rez a try. I don't hear a lot about this Sega PS2 game, so I'm not sure if nobody played it or they just don't talk about it, but it's a great 3D shooter with some excellent boss battles. You might want to rent it, as you could probably finish it in a night (there's a PA strip about this, but they're down now so I can't link it, go to their archive and search for Rez if you'd like), but I bought it because I had so much fun with it.

There's kind of a Tron thing happening where you're flying through a computer system trying to take out a virus (oh yeah, killing terrorists was so original). The shots you fire and the resulting explosions become part of the music you're listening to. The graphics aren't phenomenal, but they get the job done. Anyway, great soundtrack, cool power-ups, the previously mentioned boss-battles, and four pounds of fun. Try Rez today!

[Anonymous]

Yeah I have Rez, and it ROCKS! I managed to find a copy for PS2 at an out of the way videogame store in Aberdeen Washinton. It was a pretty good deal only like 30 dollars for a brand new copy and they are hard to find! Wow! It is a rather short game but all the new options opened up via passing the 5 different stages at different scores adds a lot of replay value to the game.

PLUS! I hear that the AI adapts to how well the player progresses through a level. AWESOME! I also recommend REZ, but since my recommendations are a bit long winded I tend to limit them to three a post ;)

[Jim Preston]

I'll add my voice the chorus of praise for Rez. It's heavily influenced by the tone poems of Russian composer Wassily Kandinsky and is clear proof that videogames are already part of the wider culture as a whole.

It is "short" in terms of a shooter, but there is plenty of replay value with about 20 different extras to unlock such as new colors, soundtracks and levels. It also doesn't have as much challenge as most shooters as I found in generally pretty easy. But the strength of the game is its close relationship between the action and the techno soundtrack. I think it is a definite rental for anyone with a PS2 who is ready for a more mellow and colorful shooter.

[GregB]

Yeah, Rez is short, but it's just so darn replayable. No matter how many times I've completed a level, I'm happy to play it again. The music and visuals are really engaging, and I love how everything you do, every shot you make ends up on the beat.

It does feel a lot like Tron, but I actually think it has more in common with Star Trek - TMP (what with the whole V'ger thang).

[Wholly Schmidt]

I'll chime in with support for Rallisport Challenge. I just started playing it again two days ago actually. I'm not the biggest racing fan ever, but when I'm in the mood for it Rallisport definitely satisfies.

[leedim]

Just for the record, I wasn't complaining that Rez was short, just wanted to mention it because game length seems to be an issue for a lot of people now.

Anyway, for a little more challenge in your shooters, Bangai-O is fantastic. I don't even know if there is an ending to this game, but if there is I'll probably never see it. It's an old school 2D ton-of-stuff-on-the-screen side scrolling shooter for the Dreacast, which looks and plays great. The default scheme is kind of wonky, but you can change it so that you control movement with the d pad and shot direction with the ABXY buttons.

The storyline would probably made just as much sense if they left it in Japanese, but that's not really the point. The point is to blow everything up. Your two main weapons are heat-seaking missles and a laser beam that bounces off walls. You earn points based on how many things are exploding at the time and there is a special attack which is more powerful when there are more enemy shots headed at you.

I actually can't remember if the soundtrack is any good, since I usually play this while listening to a CD, but my guess is that it isn't. Anyway, if your up for a lot of shooting in an attempt to see how many sprites your DC can put on the screen, this is your game.

And if that doesn't sell you, here's the screen they show you after you die and continue. (http://mediaviewer.ign.com/ignMediaPage.jsp?media_id=1377617&object_id=14860&channel_id=62&page_title=Bangai-O&adtag=network%3Dign%26pagetype%3Darticle%26site%3D dreamcastviewer&return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdreamcast.ign.com%2Fobject s%2F014%2F014860.html)

[Dave Long]

MrAngryFace could post about Capcom games almost indefinitely. There's so many good ones. Recently I've been playing Night Warriors (Darkstalkers 2) and Street Fighter Alpha 2 on the Sega Saturn. Both games are brilliant. They're so clearly on par with their arcade counterparts. Night Warriors especially is just loaded with animation. Every time I play it I feel like I catch a glimpse of some new frame of animation I never noticed before. I want a new game in that series!

The Mega Man Legends games are much maligned and Tron Bonne went right under everyone's radar. It's a real shame. That's Capcom's biggest problem it seems. The games are seriously fun and they're usually geared to the hardcore but even a large segment of the hardcore fail to play them or dismiss the games out of hand. Show someone Power Stone or Power Stone 2 on Dreamcast and they'll be amazed at how cool they are, but they never believe it until they see it. Same with Heavy Metal: Geomatrix. That's a super two player game and has a lot of texturing and character modelling that has yet to be equaled on current systems. Yet it came out in the twilight of the Dreamcast's lifetime so most haven't played it much less heard of it. *sigh*

Re: Bangai-O... it's a Treasure game. One of their best IMO. It has some fifty levels I believe though I've not completed it. It can get very tough. It was originally released on the N64 in japan and made its way to the DC later on in a beefed up form. It really is a great shooter and does what Treasure does best, takes a fairly straightforward genre and turns it upside down with weirdness and ultra solid unique play mechanics. The sprites are tiny but there's so many of them and they have a ton of animation. The best part of the game is that you're supposed to let stuff get close so you can unleash an enormous attack that literally oblilterates the screen. It's not called BANGai-O for nothing.

--Dave

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I am a big ol Capcom whore. Games like Demon's Crest, Mega Man 2, Tech Romancer, and Street Fighter 3 are just a few of the reasons why I love their games.

I play A LOT of Marvel vs Street Fighter on the Saturn.

[Dave Long]

Since we're talking Capcom, I caught these two tidbits on Magic Box...


- After the absence for two years, Capcom announced that they will participate the upcoming Amusement Machine Show (AM Show) in Japan this fall, they will reveal some brand new arcade titles at the show.

- Capcom announced they will be hosting a Capcom Game Show in Hong Kong at the end of September, right after the Tokyo Game Show 2002. All the latest Capcom software from Tokyo Game Show 2002 will be exhibited in this Asian game show.

The Arcade one is especially enticing... Street Fighter 4? A new Darkstalkers game? The next VS. title? A NEW SHOOTER?! The mind boggles...

--Dave

[Anonymous]

I'm hoping that any new fighter they either bring from a previous series or start anew will have hi-res sprites. I mean, it's about time they combined that with the high quality animation style from Street Fighter 3: Third Strike. A new Darkstalkers or Street Fighter title would be ideal. While I adore Marvel vs Street Fighter, I haven't found a VS. title with that much balance since. MvC wasn't bad I guess, but MvC2 was totally dominated by a handful of characters. CvsSNK had great backgrounds but CvsSNK2 had the better characters and gameplay.

I have a feeling they have been working on something big for the past few years, I really can't wait to see it.

[Doug Erickson]

Dave Long: Nightwarriors Saturn is actually missing a lot of animation from the arcade. Have you tried the Japanese Vampire Savior (the sequel)for the Saturn? It requires the Capcom 4 MB cart, has four new characters, and CRAZY (arcade perfect) animation, plus zero load times.

Vampire Savior was released for the US PS as Darkstalkers 3, which is a pretty good port - animation is about on par with Nightwarriors Saturn. It also has a lot of extras - art gallery, "color you own character", and ranking stuff ala SFA3. Very nice!

[Dave Long]

Yeah, I'm aware it's missing animation frames Doug. It's still pretty close with the exception of Anakaris and Victor. Victor especially seems to be missing some frames.

My biggest regret with the Saturn is not importing anything. Back then I had a lot less cash to spend on games. A friend of mine bought just about everything though so I've seen and played almost everything of consequence that came out in Japan but just don't own it. I've been looking around and pricing a lot of things now and while some stuff is prohibitively expensive (Radiant Silvergun, Dragon Force, Shining Force III, Panzer Saga...), most of it is reachable if I forego some newer games for the current systems.

I'll look around for the PS Darkstalkers 3. That's something that ought to hold me over until I can get the Japanese Vampire Savior which is most definitely on my list of games to snag. I played it eons ago and absolutely loved it. Marvel vs. Street Fighter was similarly incredible. The Darkstalkers games are among my favorites from Capcom because the characters are so incredibly entertaining. I love the Street Fighter games, but the DS games are probably equally as fun for me. I'm probably a bigger fan of the Neo Geo fighters in general, but Capcom's fighters are always something I watch for.

BTW, I've mentioned before my rekindled love of the Sega Genesis. I scored a copy of Rocket Knight Adventures (Konami) a couple weeks ago. That game is brilliant. For about $25 in total including shipping, I snagged that, Cyborg Justice, TechnoClash and Treasure's Light Crusader. Two were brand new in shrink and the other two were in excellent condition. I've been having a lot of fun picking up older titles. Sega Saturn games will be next... the longer you wait to get this stuff, the less likely you'll find games with boxes and manuals. That's especially true of Saturn with the easily breakable mammoth jewel cases.

--Dave

[Anonymous]

I was a big SNES whore. I had a genny and played a few great games on it, but in the end it was always the SNES for me. I saw a copy of Demon's Crest for SNES at a store the other day. 8 dollars! What a find!

[Dave Long]

Well, like today's three system world, I own both a SNES and a Genesis. The speed of the Genesis action games was always a huge draw for me. Still is in fact... though I love a lot of SNES stuff too. We play Yoshi's Island with the kids a lot. They love it.

I also owned a Neo Geo, 3DO and a Jaguar back then. I still miss Tempest 2000 on the Jag. All the other versions pale in comparison.

--Dave

[Anonymous]

I'm still trying to find a reason to buy a gamecube. I know Capcom has some stuff coming to it, so in time that will be enough reason.

Xbox already has some non-capcom titles I wanna play which makes me lean in its direction.

As it is I mostly play the PSOne, PS2, Saturn, and Dreamcast.

[leedim]

I'm still trying to find a reason to buy a gamecube. I know Capcom has some stuff coming to it, so in time that will be enough reason.

With the exception of reviewers, it seems that most people ignore WaveRace. I love that game, the controls are tight, you can spend a long time unlocking everything, and the courses are very well designed. It's not so great for multiplayer because your friends really can't just pick it up and play, but I lost a lot of sleep to that title.

Since we were talking about shooters earlier, Rogue Leader is a good time, but it is damn hard. It had been a long time since a game really made me want to toss the console through a window (and the Gamecube has that handle, it's like it's begging me to). If you're a Star Wars freak, you can't really go wrong.

Any night that starts off with "let's just play a few rounds of Smash Bros./Bomberman" usually ends five hours later with the same disc still in the Cube. You can't beat these two games for some four-player action. Smash Brothers is, as Tycho put it "a giant love letter from Nintendo to itself". If you have any sense of nostalgia for Nintendo titles and you like beating your friends up, you pretty much have to own this. Bomberman isn't too different from the other titles in the series (did any others let you still play after you blow up?), but it has the power to put everyone in front of the set in a trance. People even sit and just watch while we play it, it's ridiculous.

I really liked Eternal Darkness. It wasn't very challenging, but I really got into the storyline, which was extremely well done. I'm addicted to that world SK created, and even though I had memorized all of the "puzzles" and there was no challenge the second or third time through, I just liked being there. I understand Tom's complaints, but I didn't see it that way. This game rules, can't wait for their next.

I skipped out on Resident Evil the first time, just couldn't handle the control scheme that pissed me off to no end. Loved it on the GC, gonna play it a few more times when I get through some other stuff.

Plus, there's a ton of (hopefully) good stuff coming out. Mario is here this month, Star Fox next month, Metroid in November, Zelda...uh, sometime. I guess six titles or so might not justify a console purchase, but I love my Gamecube. Nintendo is doing a package deal with the GC, a memory card, and Mario for $189 this Christmas, so maybe you want to wait for that.

Work, work...

[Anonymous]

I missed out on the sega saturn unfortunatly. What I would give to get my hands on shining force3 the first two were some of my favariote games ever and still playable and fun today. I'd like to get my hands on the panzer dragoons as well. But I can't imagine playing them as imports I like to know what's happening.

There's always emulation though I guess no working saturn emulators yet but I"d imagine they can't be to far behind.

Oh yeah I hear you on rocket knight adventures I got that when it came out it's probably my favored 2d sidescroller right after the original megamans.

[Dave Long]

My enjoyment of the Cube is well-documented on Qt3 but I can honestly say that of the three current gen systems, it's got the most games that evoke that pure fun feeling you got back in the 16-bit era coupled with some 16-bit-like high difficulty stuff like Rogue Leader. It's also got the best multiplayer games of all three systems, hands down. As noted above, Bomberman and Super Smash Brothers Melee are timesinks. I would also throw Sega Soccer Slam and Super Monkey Ball in there too since I've played a lot of multiplayer with those.

The upcoming games are definitely worth checking out. Super Mario Sunshine this month, Star Fox Adventures next month, Metroid, Wario World, Zelda, F-Zero and even more importantly IMO, the releases of Animal Crossing and Cubivore. Cubivore is the game Dobutso Bancho or Animal Leader from Japan which was just announced as an Atlus release for later this year. The movies of that game are just wild. Can't wait to see it here in the US. Of course Capcom fans can't ignore Resident Evil 0 and 4 due in the next two years and then there's Capcom vs. SNK EO which could be good for a few laughs.

Doug...RE: Saturn... you can do it man. The systems are cheap on Ebay and stuff like Panzer Dragoon and its sequel PD Zwei are like 5 to 10 bucks. There's so much you can get for the system for a song and it would be criminal to deny yourself these games. All of the games you mention are available domestically too. Shining Force III only got Scenario I over here (II and III were Japanese only), but the Panzer games are all domestic and if you like RPGs, you can also get Shining the Holy Ark, Magic Knight Rayearth, Dragon Force and more. Some are pricey, some aren't. But I highly recommend getting a Saturn if you enjoy 2D games and want to see where some of Sega's best franchises got their start. NiGHTS is brilliant and I've seen it with the 3D control pad for like $10 to $20 on Ebay.

--Dave

[leedim]

I can't believe I forgot Super Monkey Ball. Monkey Fight alone can kill an entire night. And thanks for the reminder of Sega Soccer Slam. I keep putting that purchase off, and the one day I had decided to buy it EB was out of stock. As soon as I recover from the 3.5 months of rent I just paid in a week I'll check it out...

[Anonymous]

There was a terrific tennis game for the SNES that I used to play on a friend's console-I can't recall the exact title,but it's the best tennis arcade game I've ever played(yes,better than Vurtual Tennis,IMO....).I'd like to pick up a SNES just for that game.

[Doug Erickson]

I dunno, the Cube really hasn't done it for me. Currently, I own two games for it: Bloody Roar (which isn't that great, but it has some of the best SFX I've ever seen in a fighting game), and the Japanese version of Super Mario Sunshine. I owned Burnout and Super Monkey Ball for awhile, but with both games getting meatier upgrades soon, I felt I could sell 'em off for a quick discount on more immediate purchases.

Unlike Dave, I didn't find any of the other Cube games "fun" (tm Not Tom Chick) - I found thm a bit sterile and disaffecting. SSBM just felt spazzy, and I don't like the non-Kirby characters much. Couldn't stand ED, and I've always loathed the RE titles.

At this point, the PS2 has been vastly more appealing, and the Xbox is starting to pick up. There isn't much exclusive content save the Zelda title and Metroid that really pique my interest, at leat until an RPG or three comes out. Animal Crossing is a kiddified Sims minus any of the interesting customization stuff; sort of a lighter, fruitier sandbox game. I'm sure the concept sounds amusing to folks who haven't played The Sims or B&W, but trust me: I guarantee 90% of the purchasers will be bored to tears a week after getting it. Starfox Adventures looks like Saturday Morning shite of the lowest order, and the fact that Rare is developing it makes it even less appealing. Next year should be a lot stronger for the GC.

BTW, apparently Skies of Arcadia Legends *is* being developed by Overworks (not Point of View as I previously claimed), and will be a pretty dramatic overhaul of the original in terms of content (graphics won't change much, though). Should be worth getting excited about.

[Wholly Schmidt]

That's kind of the way I feel about the 'cube as well, though I've got a bit more love for Smash Bros. It's felt like nothing good has come out for any of the consoles this summer, but then looking at the EB upcoming release lists (as "trustworthy" as we all know release dates are) I realized the developers simply hate me and decided to put off all the good releases until right when I'm getting into the fall semester of classes. On the bright side, I've managed not to totally waste my tuition money on games this summer.

[Jim Preston]

No console goes more unused on my shelf than the Gamecube. I only own a few games (RS2, Pikmen, Resident Evil), but I am thinking about getting Eternal Darkness. I have zero interest in the next installment of the lucky the magic elf/zippy the italian plumber games, not because they won't be superbly crafted, it's just not my taste in games.

However, there is another reason to be concerned as a Gamecube owner beyond its shallow library. A recent sports game from a high profile publisher debuted on all three system last month. In the first week, the PS2 version sold roughly 175K copies, the Xbox version sold a comfortable 80K copies, and the Gamecube version sold a dismal 16K.

The title attachment rate for the PS2 is something around 7.4 according to NPD. While the Xbox is at surprising 4.1 and the Gamecube is around 3. To third-party developers it looks like the same old story: Nintendo is played by 8 - 14 year olds with little disposable income whose parents only buy first-party titles. Third-party publishers continue to struggle with it, and are unlikely to make exclusive titles for it, unlike Microsoft, which continues to sign exclusivitiy deals like they one they announced with Bioware.

Nintendo long ago came to the conclusion that the best money is in software, not hardware. It's looking more and more like Yamauchi's last prophecy before he retired is going to come true: Nintendo will get out of the hardware business in 2 years and go the way of Sega.

I could be wrong though. I thought the NeoGeo would be a great idea. Who wouldn't want to pay $200 for their game carts?

[Dave Long]

If the recent sports game was NCAA 2002 from EA, I'm not surprised it sold poorly on the Cube. It's already somewhat niche to begin with. College football has always been a throwaway series.

But no matter which one it is, to extrapolate that one sports game has that much impact on the rest of the games lineup is kind of silly. Maybe the people who buy Gamecubes don't play sports games? That's certainly a plausible conclusion. All genres don't sell the same on all systems. That's pretty much always been a genre Nintendo didn't make big money in because their systems have always been more focused on action/RPG/racing/unique games rather than the same old sports iterations that Sega thrived on with Genesis and Sony did with Playstation.

Finally, whether the third parties hang around or not is pretty much irrelevant when Nintendo's games can sell a system by themselves. Third parties just add spice and ports to their lineups anyway. Who wants to buy a port when you can get a brand new first party Nintendo game that's a far better playing game than anything on the other consoles? Nintendo has always been right about one thing, quantity does not equal quality. If the third parties would wise up and create unique games for the Cube, they'd find themselves rewarded. If they don't want to do that, they can expect to find their ported game ending up far down the sales list.

It's clear that Nintendo can carry a system by themselves. They did it with N64 and they can do it again with Gamecube if necessary. It may not appeal to YOU but that doesn't mean there's no one out there with Gamecubes enjoying Nintendo's properties and the few great third party titles like Super Monkey Ball that you can't play anywhere else. The system presents a clear alternative to the largely gloom and doom/"mature"/edgy action/xtreme sports games crowding the other systems. If everyone's so fast to abandon children (which you seem to imply above), they're going to find out ten years from now that gaming won't be so important a hobby to a new generation. There's a very real possibility that gaming will just dry up and wither when us thirtysomethings and the twentysomethings behind us get older. It's harder and harder for aged gamers to keep up when they start to have kids, etc. If no one wants to appeal to them, the new kids won't care about games.

--Dave

[Lee Johnson]

In terms of performance and graphic appeal, how does the Gamecube stack up against the PS2 when running the same game? Are there many/any titles on the shelf right now that could be used for comparison purposes?

[Tyjenks]

If everyone's so fast to abandon children (which you seem to imply above), they're going to find out ten years from now that gaming won't be so important a hobby to a new generation. There's a very real possibility that gaming will just dry up and wither when us thirtysomethings and the twentysomethings behind us get older. It's harder and harder for aged gamers to keep up when they start to have kids, etc. If no one wants to appeal to them, the new kids won't care about games.

--Dave

That is a great point and one I had never thought of. I and many people here grew up on Nintendo and Arcade games which all had "light" themes. They were all pure fun, too. I do not remember ever wanting or playing a game for any extended period of time only because of the cool graphics or buckets 'o blood.

I played a game called "Bilestoad"(sp?) 15-20 years ago which was a top down slooooow sword and shield fighter for my Apple. The arms could be severed and left behind with blood trailing my guy on my black and white monitor. It was a novelty and cool, but pretty boring after a short time. I always went back to the NES and SNES as a youngster. I feel a lot of the games today are created for shock value and to see how much developers can get away with to the detriment of gameplay. Plus, if you like the kiddie games you are oft times considered "gay" or at the very least "uncool".

I know I am having a little selective memory and skipping over all the real miserable games from those times, but I remember plenty of great titles which I was weaned on.

Now if I can somehow convince my wife of your point. I can then purchase my 16 mo. old a Gamecube and GBA. OTOH, she would probably be delighted if gaming died out. More money for flowery soap and sleepy-time candles.

[Bub, Andrew]

If everyone's so fast to abandon children (which you seem to imply above), they're going to find out ten years from now that gaming won't be so important a hobby to a new generation. There's a very real possibility that gaming will just dry up and wither when us thirtysomethings and the twentysomethings behind us get older. It's harder and harder for aged gamers to keep up when they start to have kids, etc.


This is ludicrous. This is like saying kids will never get into movies if Disney and others didn't put out films aimed directly at them.


"If no one wants to appeal to them, the new kids won't care about games."

The "new kids" will always care about video games Dave, even if Nintendo dies and kiddie games cease to be, because video games -- even those focusing on Solid Snake or Rainbow Six -- are built to appeal to kids and kids inside of us. To co-opt Tyjenks example above: he wouldn't have gone to his NES if that bloody Apple game had been a good one. Or, more likely, he would have gone between the two. It's the medium that truly attracts kids, not the Italian Plumber.

[Tyjenks]

There was a terrific tennis game for the SNES that I used to play on a friend's console-I can't recall the exact title,but it's the best tennis arcade game I've ever played(yes,better than Vurtual Tennis,IMO....).I'd like to pick up a SNES just for that game.

I still have a copy of Vs. Tennis for my SNES which was in arcades, as well. It and Ramparts and Super Dodge Ball are all still fun.

[Tyjenks]

If everyone's so fast to abandon children (which you seem to imply above), they're going to find out ten years from now that gaming won't be so important a hobby to a new generation. There's a very real possibility that gaming will just dry up and wither when us thirtysomethings and the twentysomethings behind us get older. It's harder and harder for aged gamers to keep up when they start to have kids, etc.


This is ludicrous. This is like saying kids will never get into movies if Disney and others didn't put out films aimed directly at them.

Do you think kids will develop into the same rabid fans that we are if they stumble onto games they like as they get older instead of having an entire console aimed directly at them?

[Lee Johnson]

When I was a kid, "computer gaming" consisted of Tic-tac-toe and Hangman played on timesharing terminals at the Ontario Science Centre, or running "Lunar Lander" on a programmable calculator... if I wasn't running it as an overnight batch job at school with cards and 132-column paper output. The Atari VCS was just getting started and anyway, my family couldn't afford one. These humble gaming beginnings don't seem to have slowed me down much as an adult. ;)

[Tyjenks]

These humble gaming beginnings don't seem to have slowed me down much as an adult. ;)

Well, there will always be a few "special" people who find their way into gaming addiction no matter what. :wink:

My point (and maybe Dave's) is that without the kiddie console, there will not be as many kiddie games, and, by the transitive method of geometry, not as many kids growing up playing games. Then, there will not be as many adult gamers in the following years and before you know it young and old alike will have deserted video games entirely and will be outside, actually playing sports, and getting a good workout. So through further extrapolation we can assume that without Nintendo we and our descendants will be a healthier lot. And who wants that? Yuck!

OK, I strayed ever so slightly from my original thought, but you get my drift. Many kids need games aimed at them to become interested and to allow parents to by stuff with suitable content for their young 'uns.

[Bub, Andrew]

But Tyjenks, you're presuming that today's rabid gamers all grew up with a NES, SNES or N64 growing up... and that's not at all true.

[Bub, Andrew]

Many kids need games aimed at them to become interested and to allow parents to by stuff with suitable content for their young 'uns.

I agree with the second half of this point Tyjenks. But not the first. Show a room full of kids Zone of the Enders, Warcraft III, or even (ugh) GTA3, and they will be interested. They will want to play. Mario isn't a gateway drug for potential gamers, it's a great game with wide range appeal to all ages.


Then, there will not be as many adult gamers in the following years and before you know it young and old alike will have deserted video games entirely and will be outside, actually playing sports, and getting a good workout.

No. Again, look at my earlier movie example. There's some truth to the whole "if you grow up with games you're a gamer for life" theory, but I don't think it follows that Nintendo or "kiddie" fare is required to attract kids to games.

[Tyjenks]

But Tyjenks, you're presuming that today's rabid gamers all grew up with a NES, SNES or N64 growing up... and that's not at all true.

OK, that's true. I still think without kid games, even if they are through Nintendo as a software only developer in the future, the videogame fanbase will shrink. I, for one, will not bring my kids up on Resident Evil and Street Fighter Alpha XI: The Anime Edition "with actual chunks of flesh raining on you!". If there are no young people games, the kids will be doing something else with their free time until they are older. By then, they might have no interest in gaming **GASP!**.

What were we debating again? :D

[Dave Long]

No Andrew, he's rightfully assuming that there were a lot of games targeted toward everyone and not just the 17 and above gaming set. According to Mr. Preston, publishers see the low sales of some sports game as some kind of sign that Nintendo only appeals to small children and therefore isn't a good market because that means mom and dad have to buy their games. No if Nintendo decides to stop making consoles and changes their business such that they're no longer providing games for "everyone", how long will it be before gaming is relegated to only the older crowd and gaming itself becomes more niche and less mainstream?

I'm sure there are those that would love it if gaming regressed to the days of nerds only play and if publishers continue to believe that children aren't worth making games for, they'll get their wish. I don't think we've hit the point where games are destined to always be here as an enormous entertainment business capable of sustaining itself without making product kids can enjoy. Movies embrace all sorts of movie watchers. If they didn't do that, they would become less important to a large audience and slowly drift away to be replaced by some other hobby or pastime.

Anyway, we're arguing over the way bean counters are reading the numbers on the sales of sports games for current consoles. They often wouldn't know a good game if it bit them in the ass, so I'm inclined to believe that my continued purchase of "kids games" will send the signal I intend it to. If Nintendo are the only ones that want to take my money, then so be it.

--Dave

[Bub, Andrew]

[quote=Bub, Andrew] If there are no young people games, the kids will be doing something else with their free time until they are older. By then, they might have no interest in gaming **GASP!**.

No, they'll be playing old people/innappropriate games (if allowed and if not allowed they'll be doing it at their friend's houses). Back in my day (the Atari 2600) all games were for kids and adults. Well, actually they were for people who could imagine that the box with the arrow being chased by the duck thing was a guy with a sword fighting a dragon.... So they were probably really aimed at drug users.

The other point is that Nintendo's kiddie games sell very well to adults, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[Tyjenks]

No, they'll be playing old people/innappropriate games (if allowed and if not allowed they'll be doing it at their friend's houses). Back in my day (the Atari 2600) all games were for kids and adults.

That's debatable. Some parents may actually have control over their children and not allow them to play the more mature games at home or away. That sounds like an impossibility, but I am going to try my darnedest.

My Atari games were not aimed at any group, I will agree, but how many people in their 30's and 40's were hardcore Atari gamers back then like we have PS2 and X-Box gamers today. I do not think there were many 25 year olds and up who's hands could have lasted longer than an hour with those joysticks much less were Atari fanboys.

I think I may have extended this debate as far as my little brain can take. That rat in my head is wearing out on his wheel, as well.

[Bub, Andrew]

I will agree, but how many people in their 30's and 40's were hardcore Atari gamers back then like we have PS2 and X-Box gamers today. I do not think there were many 25 year olds and up who's hands could have lasted longer than an hour with those joysticks much less were Atari fanboys.

I see what you're getting at, but today's Madden is a hell of a lot easier to sell to a 40 year old than yesterday's Atari Football was. "Why is the ball a square?" Same with GTA3 and Berzerk. My father didn't care at all about Atari, but he's really impressed with today's graphics and hardware.

I do think there's some truth to the theory that games your whole life makes you a gamer. But today's games are hard to ignore for the adults (I even catch my game disliking wife saying "wow" during some commercials for games), maybe impossible to ignore for kids.

[Tyjenks]

Whew! I think we are done and I will bring us back on the topic which, if memory serves, was something about neato console games.

Have any of you Gamecubites taken a gander at Animal Crossing? I have read a little about it and it sounds intriguing.

[Jim Preston]

According to Mr. Preston, publishers see the low sales of some sports game as some kind of sign that Nintendo only appeals to small children and therefore isn't a good market because that means mom and dad have to buy their games.
--Dave

My point was larger than that. The low sales of one particular title is indicative of a trend backed up by numbers from NPD. The fact is, third-party publishers are only interested in the potential game sales on a console, hence the emphasis on "market penetration." The PS2 has sold the best by far, and its consumers seem to buy a fair number of games.

The Xbox has sold slightly below expectations, but its customers buy more games per console on average than anyone else. It is owned by hardcore gamers with money to spend.

The Gamecube, however, is third to Xbox in terms of sales and its customers are third in terms average games per console. That will naturally improve when Mario SS, Metroid, Starfox and Zelda (next year) get here, but it is by no means certain that those games will move enough units to make third party publishers continue to support that Gamecube. It is my guess that third party publishers will grow disenchanted with sales numbers on the Gamecube, and that Nintendo itself will make good on their hints that the GC is the last console they make, before going software only.

As for the general point about "kiddie" games, I only meant that I don't care for them, not that Nintendo doesn't produce the best games out there or that Nintendo still can't make gobs of money in that space. They have, and they always will, but I'm guessing they will be making that on other platforms in the future, not Nintendo hardware.

[Matthew Gallant]

I'm interested in Animal Crossing. I even put my name into the win it before you can buy it contest (http://www.nintendo.com/animalcrossing/index.jsp).

[Doug Erickson]

Last I checked, the Playstation 2 has plenty of "kiddy games" available for it. There's plenty of incentives for a parent to pick up a Playstation 2 if they have children.

[JT]

So Nintendo will just write games for Sony and ... Microsoft? How boring. Microsoft launches Xbox and Nintendo just gives up? Is there any hard evidence that this is really coming?

[leedim]

My point was larger than that. The low sales of one particular title is indicative of a trend backed up by numbers from NPD. The fact is, third-party publishers are only interested in the potential game sales on a console, hence the emphasis on "market penetration." The PS2 has sold the best by far, and its consumers seem to buy a fair number of games.

The Xbox has sold slightly below expectations, but its customers buy more games per console on average than anyone else. It is owned by hardcore gamers with money to spend.

The Gamecube, however, is third to Xbox in terms of sales and its customers are third in terms average games per console. That will naturally improve when Mario SS, Metroid, Starfox and Zelda (next year) get here, but it is by no means certain that those games will move enough units to make third party publishers continue to support that Gamecube. It is my guess that third party publishers will grow disenchanted with sales numbers on the Gamecube, and that Nintendo itself will make good on their hints that the GC is the last console they make, before going software only.

As for the general point about "kiddie" games, I only meant that I don't care for them, not that Nintendo doesn't produce the best games out there or that Nintendo still can't make gobs of money in that space. They have, and they always will, but I'm guessing they will be making that on other platforms in the future, not Nintendo hardware.

Where are you getting your sales numbers? According to Reuters, the Gamecube is installed in a million more homes than the XBox (http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=search&StoryID=1297900). Granted, their polls suggest that the XBox will overtake the Cube next year, but they also predicted that last year.

I'm not saying that the Gamecube is kicking ass or anything, but it seems to me that people have been trying to write Nintendo off for one reason or another since FFVII came out, and they don't seem to want to go anywhere.

Oh well, this conversation has become tiresome. Now is the time on Q2T when we dance...

[Jim Preston]

Where are you getting your sales numbers? According to Reuters, the Gamecube is installed in a million more homes than the XBox (http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=search&StoryID=1297900).

That's an interesting link. I hadn't seen that. However, that report is not according to Reuters. Reuters is reporting what Ziff is reporting what some reseach company said according to a sampling of 2,000 gamers (that's a pretty small percentage of the roughly 20 million console owners out there).

That report is especially surprising as I am not sure how the research company can claim "Nintendo Co. Ltd.'s 7974.OS GameCube is installed in 4.8 million homes, compared to 3.8 million for Microsoft Corp.'s MSFT.O Xbox, the Ziff Davis Media Game Group reported in a study of some 2,000 video game players." How exactly do you know the number of installed consoles by asking gamers?

My numbers were from the stated sales from both Nintendo and MS, both of which were backed up by NPD. However, I don't have a link for that right now, so my case is weakened.

Finally, this suspicious report also indicates at the end that game hardware and software is supposed to reach 30 billion internationally, which is roughly double the most ambitious estimates I have heard even from industry cheerleaders like the IDSA.

However, I could be wrong about GC have a larger install base right now. Everything I have heard since the price cut has been that Xbox has been moving more units than the Gamecube. I could be wrong, though.

[leedim]

I think they're talking worldwide and you're talking USA only, which would make sense. The Gamecube has been doing much better than the XBox in Japan (although still nowhere near the PS2), and from what I heard it was selling well in Europe. Not sure about Australia, though. Anyway, that's probably the difference.

[Anonymous]

Bub,

Look at comic books. I'd guess the average comic buyer today is 30, instead of 13. They started aiming at more mature audiences, and now there have a very tiny kid readership.

[Bub, Andrew]

Look at comic books. I'd guess the average comic buyer today is 30, instead of 13. They started aiming at more mature audiences, and now there have a very tiny kid readership.

Kids aren't buying comics for a variety of reasons. I'll grant you that one of them is that they aren't aimed at kids any more (that's the least of them though. There have been several attempts to recapture the kid market in the past 20 years, all have failed... so there ya go).

1. Price:
Comics used to be cheap and made cheaply. Now with better paper, ink, etc., they average $3 an issue (when I collected they were $0.60 an issue. That was in 1988). Kids just can't afford them any more. Plus the collector market sucks. I go into the store, I find Issues 2-4 of a limited series. Where's issue 1? Out of print. And it costs $15. Bullshit.

2. Availability:
They aren't sold widely as much as they were. Some drugstores and bookstores have them, but not enough and nowhere near what it used to be like.

3. Availability 2:
Comic book stores have been dying for years. And the one's that remain aren't kid friendly by any means. My local one, one of three remaining in Milwaukee, features several sullen employees... all smoking! Shudder.

So, I'll grant you that if Nintendo stops making games for kids. If games are only sold in small hole-in-the-wall boutiques that aren't easy to find (not in malls). And if the prices jumps to something like $150+ per game... I agree. Kids will stop playing video games. :)

[Tyjenks]

Availability 2:
Comic book stores have been dying for years. And the one's that remain aren't kid friendly by any means. My local one, one of three remaining in Milwaukee, features several sullen employees... all smoking! Shudder.


Amen to that brother. At my ripe old age of 32 I get a little unnerved going into our local store. It is like walking into a country club with jeans and a T-shirt on except at the comic store I walk in with a clean hair, a little color to my skin, and a life. I feel like they are all staring at me because I did not go home and dress down after work and before going by.

I remember playing in a Magic tournament 6 or 7 years ago and after approx. 3 hours that was the rankest and stuffiest place I have ever been in and it was a pretty large place.

[Anonymous]

This is for the rest of 2002 alone:

August 12, 2002 Madden NFL 2003 Sports Electronic Arts NR
August 12, 2002 Magical Mirror Starring Mickey Mouse Adventure Capcom E
August 12, 2002 NFL Blitz 20-03 Sports Point of View Software T
August 13, 2002 Beach Spikers Sports AM2 E
August 20, 2002 Sega Sports NFL 2K3 Sports Sega E
August 26, 2002 MLB SlugFest 20-03 Sports Midway T
August 26, 2002 Super Mario Sunshine Adventure Nintendo E
August 26, 2002 Super Monkey Ball 2 Action Amusement Vision E
August 27, 2002 Top Gun: Combat Zones Action Titus E
August 31, 2002 Turok: Evolution Shooter Acclaim M
September 3, 2002 Pac-Man Fever Board Namco E
September 3, 2002 Sega Sports NCAA College Football 2k3 Sports Visual Concepts E
September 5, 2002 Scooby-Doo! Night of 100 Frights Adventure Heavy Iron Studios E
September 10, 2002 Egg Mania: Eggstreme Madness Puzzle Kemco E
September 10, 2002 Freekstyle Sports Electronic Arts NR
September 10, 2002 The Scorpion King: Rise of the Akkadian Action Universal Interactive NR
September 16, 2002 Animal Crossing Simulation Nintendo E
September 16, 2002 NHL Hitz 20-03 Sports Black Box Games E
September 17, 2002 Barbarian Fighting Saffire T
September 17, 2002 Crash Bandicoot: Wrath of Cortex Action Travellers Tales E
September 17, 2002 Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer Sports Activision NR
September 17, 2002 Mystic Heroes Action Koei E
September 17, 2002 Worms Blast Strategy Team17 E
September 18, 2002 Star Wars: The Clone Wars Action Pandemic Studios T
September 23, 2002 NASCAR Thunder 2003 Racing Electronic Arts NR
September 23, 2002 Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit 2 Racing Electronic Arts NR
September 23, 2002 Star Fox Adventures Adventure Rare E
September 24, 2002 Mat Hoffman's Pro BMX 2 Sports Activision E
September 24, 2002 Rayman Arena Board Ubi Soft E
September 24, 2002 Timesplitters 2 Shooter Free Radical NR
September 2002 Capcom Vs. SNK 2 EO Fighting Capcom T
Q3 2002 Dave Mirra BMX XXX Sports Z-Axis M
October 1, 2002 Namco Museum Action Namco E
October 1, 2002 Sega Sports NCAA College Basketball 2K3 Sports Sega NR
October 7, 2002 Robotech: Battlecry Simulation Vicious Cycle NR
October 8, 2002 Die Hard: Vendetta Shooter Bits Studios T
October 8, 2002 Knockout Kings Fighting Electronic Arts T
October 15, 2002 Black & Bruised Fighting Digital Fiction NR
October 15, 2002 Dragon's Lair 3D Action Dragonstone Software E
October 15, 2002 Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius Action THQ E
October 15, 2002 Legends of Wrestling II Fighting Acclaim NR
October 15, 2002 Nickelodeon Party Blast Board Data Design E
October 15, 2002 Outlaw Golf Action Merscom E
October 15, 2002 The Sum of all Fears Shooter Red Storm Entertainment T
October 17, 2002 Vexx Action Acclaim NR
October 21, 2002 Mario Party 4 Board Hudson Soft E
October 21, 2002 Ty the Tasmanian Tiger Action Electronic Arts E
October 22, 2002 Darkened Skye Adventure Merscom T
October 22, 2002 Sega Sports NBA 2K3 Sports Sega NR
October 22, 2002 X-Men: Next Dimension Fighting EXAKT Entertainment T
October 28, 2002 Rugrats Royal Ransom Adventure THQ E
October 29, 2002 Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters Melee Fighting Pipeworks Software E
October 29, 2002 Sega Sports NHL 2K3 Sports Sega NR
October 29, 2002 Evolution Skateboarding Sports Konami NR
October 31, 2002 Blood Omen 2 Adventure Crystal Dynamics M
October 31, 2002 BloodRayne Action Terminal Reality M
October 31, 2002 Resident Evil 0 Adventure Capcom M
October 2002 E.T. Search for Dragora Unknown NewKidCo E
November 4, 2002 Defender Shooter Midway T
November 4, 2002 Frogger Classic 2 Adventure Konami NR
November 5, 2002 Batman: Dark Tomorrow Adventure Kemco NR
November 5, 2002 Disney’s Donald Duck as PK Action Disney Interactive E
November 5, 2002 Ghost Recon Action Ubi Soft NR
November 5, 2002 Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Adventure Eurocom E
November 5, 2002 Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 Action Neversoft E
November 6, 2002 Reign of Fire Action Kuju Entertainment NR
November 11, 2002 Wario World Action Nintendo E
November 12, 2002 Rally Fusion: Race of Champions Racing Climax Studios NR
November 12, 2002 Rocky GC Sports Rage Software NR
November 12, 2002 Shox Racing Electronic Arts E
November 13, 2002 Evolution Worlds RPG Sting NR
November 13, 2002 Whirl Tour Adventure Papaya Studio NR
November 18, 2002 BattleBots Action Creative Asylum E
November 18, 2002 James Bond 007: NightFire Shooter Eurocom T
November 18, 2002 Medal of Honor: Frontline Shooter DreamWorks Interactive NR
November 18, 2002 Metroid Prime Shooter Retro Studios NR
November 19, 2002 Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast Action LucasArts NR
November 22, 2002 Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance (GC) Fighting Midway M
November 25, 2002 Star Wars: Bounty Hunter Action LucasArts T
November 2002 Army Men Air Combat: The Elite Missions Shooter 3DO E
November 2002 Cubivore Simulation Nintendo NR
November 2002 Fireblade Action Kuju Entertainment T
November 2002 Freaky Flyers Action Midway E
November 2002 Mary-Kate and Ashley Sweet 16 Action n-space Inc. E
November 2002 Minority Report (GC) Action Treyarch NR
November 2002 Top Angler Simulation Sims E
December 30, 2002 Glass Rose Unknown Capcom NR
December 2002 Evolution Snowboarding Sports Konami NR
December 2002 Super Bust-A-Move 2 Puzzle Taito E
Q4 2002 ATV Quad Power Racing 2 Racing Climax Studios NR
Q4 2002 Burnout 2: Point of Impact Racing Criterion Games Limited NR
Q4 2002 Enclave Adventure Starbreeze M
Q4 2002 NBA Ballers Sports Midway NR
Q4 2002 NHL 2003 Sports Electronic Arts E
Q4 2002 Phantasy Star Online Episodes I & II RPG Sonic Team T
Q4 2002 Pillage Strategy Zed Two E
Q4 2002 Rayman 3: Hoodlum Havoc Adventure Ubi Soft E
Year 2002 Doshin the Giant Simulation Param NR
Year 2002 Galleon: Islands of Mystery Adventure Confounding Factor NR
Year 2002 Hot Wheels Unknown THQ E
Year 2002 Kameo: Elements of Power Adventure Rare E
Year 2002 Knights Unknown Swing! Entertainment Media AG NR
Year 2002 Sgt. Cruise Action Titus E
Year 2002 Spyro: Enter the Dragonfly Adventure Universal Interactive E

[Tyjenks]

November 2002 Mary-Kate and Ashley Sweet 16 Action n-space Inc. E

Wow! I guess Nintendo is going for a more mature audience. And in space no less.

I saw where there is an X-box game in production to be released Q1 2004 where Brittney Spears and Christina Aguilera face-off in your choice of mud, jello, or baby oil.

Seriously, that is an unfortunate name for a game and will surely be changed before release. Dontcha think?

[Dave Long]

The title is Sweet 16. It's an action game made by n-Space, Inc. Hopefully you already knew that and were just pulling out collective leg...

--Dave

[Tyjenks]

Actually, I am an idiot, that may go without saying. I just read it off his release list and obviously misread it. Ahhhhh....it is in the Action genre. I knew that could not be right, but to just see it in the above form it did look funny.

I guess I could just pass it off as me making a joke out of the way our guest posted the game's info, but I have already typed this much and I really did think that was the name.

[Tyjenks]

Dave if you had not posted that, who knows how many people I would have told about this new game called Sweet 16 Action 'n Space featuring Mary Kate 'n Ashley. Then I would have returned here tomorrow and kicked myself in the head.

Speaking of titles I make into dumb pseudo sexual jokes. MK 'n A do have a video out called "Our Lips are Sealed". I have seen it in stores. That title conveys a much better message to the kids though. :wink:

[DennyA]

Oh good god. Tell me they didn't remake the GoGos song.

[Bub, Andrew]

What Denny, you think they wrote their own song? I find that prospect much more frightening.

[Tyjenks]

Oh good god. Tell me they didn't remake the GoGos song.

I think it is a straight to video movie. My niece has several of them. They are terrible actresses and even worse at singing. You'd think they would have gotten better after 12-15 years if just by osmosis from all the stuff they have done, but nope.

I would be surprised if they didn't decimate the GoGo's song somewhere in there.