Hardcore turn-based wargames

[mkozlows]

So I've never been at all interested in grognard-style turn-based wargames, but as I'm playing and enjoying games like Battle Lore and Battleground: Fantasy Warfare, I've started looking at some of GMT's more frightening games and wanting to try them out. But of course I have nobody who'd play them with me (the eight-year-old will probably be game in a few years, but not now), and it occurs to me that PC gaming is sort of ideally suited for this sort of thing.

But after decades of ignoring this genre, I have no idea where to even begin looking. Suggestions? My preferences are for something with a board-game feel, reasonable accessibility for someone not steeped in genre conventions, and pre-WW2 (and the more pre, the better).

[Alan Dunkin]

Were you looking to play a board wargame over the computer (like through ADC2 or Vassal) or were you just looking to play the equivalent type of game in the form of a computer wargame?

Some of GMT's games are easy, some are moderate difficulty, and some are hugely complex and monstrous, and frankly they're not even the most complex or even the most monstrous.

--- Alan

[Nick Hyle]

iMagic put out a series of PC Games based on GMT's Great Battles of History games, which is still an in production series at GMT (says a sometime playtester). The PC games are a few years old and out of print, but pop up on Ebay and other sources of ancient crusty used games. The PC game titles were Great Battles of Alexander; Great Battles of Hannibal; and Great Battles of Caesar. There was also an omnibus edition with a so-so editor.

If you're looking for currently available PC wargames that are very board wargame like, you are mostly looking at the output of HPS Sims, (all wargames, about half pre modern and half 20th C) and some titles from Shrapnel Games and Matrix Games.

As Alan brought up, there are also computer utilities which are very popular with current board wargamers that allow virtual play of board wargames. Vassal, Cyberboard and Aide de Camp II are the most popular ones, and the first two of those are free. Vassal is a realtime Java app; CB and ADC2 are basically PBEM utilities. They all depend on "gameboxes" to emulate any particular board game.

If you are serious about getting into this addiction, I'd recommend you show up on the boards at Consimworld, spend a few days reading old threads, and then jump in.

This should take you there:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.ee6b280

or if there is login weirdness, go here

http://www.consimworld.com/

and click the Forum link.

I will say that Consimworld is the only online community I'm aware of that is significantly more mature and well behaved than even Qt3. Which is not to say it doesn't have flame wars and raging assholes, but it's a moderated board pretty much populated by game geeks 30 and older. So if you can hang out here, it won't be a pain in the ass community to acclimate to.

You could also look around at BoardGameGeek, but Consimworld is much more focused both on wargames and their PC utilities. (Translation - I've been logging in to CSW daily for years, I periodically stick my head in at BGG.)

[strategy]

There are many great boardgames out there that play well over the net; I'd recommend "Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage" (just reprinted) as one of the best board wargames done. I'd also recommend "Age of Napoleon" - the 2nd edition is probably one of the better games on done on those conflicts. Both have Cyberboard game boxes, I believe.

On computer games, HPSSims, Shrapnel and Matrix have already been mentioned.

There is also:
- Ageod (some excellent operational games on the American Civil War, war of independendence and Napoleon's campaigns)
- Battlefront (Strategic Command 2 - WW2 game)
- Cryptic Comet (Armageddon Empires - excellent post-apocalypse strategy; definitely try the demo. The author, Vic, is around here somewhere)

[Jay Adan]

And if you value your sanity please avoid Vassal.

I salute those of you who have been willing to force yourself to learn that abomination but I feel that no game is worth enduring that pain.

[mkozlows]

Were you looking to play a board wargame over the computer (like through ADC2 or Vassal) or were you just looking to play the equivalent type of game in the form of a computer wargame?

Some of GMT's games are easy, some are moderate difficulty, and some are hugely complex and monstrous, and frankly they're not even the most complex or even the most monstrous.

Equivalent-type. I don't want to play against an actual person, but against a computer. (I hate playing games with strangers.) Basically, I want to find out if I actually like this sort of game and should try to warp my son into liking them eventually, or if I'm just drawn like a moth to things that are highly geeky but wouldn't actually enjoy them in practice.

The GMT games that were looking eerily cool were things like SPQR, Alexander, and Paths of Glory.

[awdougherty]

I would check out matrixgames.com, they have some games from different time periods. I'm not sure how to get boardgames with AI to play against, but Matrix Games will have that grognard feel that some board games give you.

[mkozlows]

If you're looking for currently available PC wargames that are very board wargame like, you are mostly looking at the output of HPS Sims, (all wargames, about half pre modern and half 20th C) and some titles from Shrapnel Games and Matrix Games.

Any particular recommendation among the "some titles"?

You could also look around at BoardGameGeek, but Consimworld is much more focused both on wargames and their PC utilities. (Translation - I've been logging in to CSW daily for years, I periodically stick my head in at BGG.)

I'm a semi-regular BGG reader (with two overflowing closets of Eurogames), which is how I started even looking at this. Memoir 44 and Battlelore to Commands & Colors: Ancients, and then I started browsing around on GMT's site...

[strategy]

Any particular recommendation among the "some titles"?

Matrix has lots of nice titles. Guns of August is a recent and very good hardcore title (WW1).

As you prefer pre-WW2 though, I think I'd recommend you take a look at Ageod's titles - Birth of America (Independence War), American Civil War, and Napoleon's Campaigns. You can download pretty big demos of each of them, which will give you an idea whether you like them enough to buy them.

I'd also give Armageddon Empires a try seeing that you're coming from boardgames; it is heavily inspired by boardgame mechanics (card-driven), and also has a good demo. There is a very long thread around here somewhere about the game.

[HRose]

I'd suggest once again Conquest of the Aegean.

But, while still hardcore and complex, it a modern take. So continuous pausable time, simple interface and more intuitive.

[lesslucid]

If you're playing these games in order to see how much they're like something like Battlelore, perhaps Fantasy General would be your thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_General

[Lum]

Fantasy General is an awesome, awesome game but it's old, out of print, and impossible to find now. Fantasy Wars is a serviceable Fantasy General clone, though. There's an active thread on it around somewhere.

Some other recommendations:

Hearts of Iron 2 is probably the only grand strategic WW2 game you'll ever need. It's not really turn-based, but it still plays in a you-go-I-go manner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts_of_Iron_2

If you are an old-school wargamer that likes pushing counters on hex grids, the Korsun Pocket series is good. Matrix Games sells it: http://www.matrixgames.com/

If you want a more minatures-style Panzerblitz type of wargame, Steel Panthers is the longtime classic, and it's been public domain in various versions for a while now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Panthers

[HRose]

If you are an old-school wargamer that likes pushing counters on hex grids, the Korsun Pocket series is good. Matrix Games sells it: http://www.matrixgames.com/
This looks chaotically pretty.

But isn't it an old version of the engine used on Battlefront? And if so why one should pick that one instead of a more recent version?

[Lum]

Battlefront is a different game entirely, it's an update of the old 8-bit era SSG series (http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=2756).

[Alan Dunkin]

The engine is roughly the same, though updated over the years, that started with Korsun Pocket and moved forward since then. But yes they are totally different games; Korsun Pocket features one situation (and the add-on Across the Dnepr another) while Battlefront features a number of different scenarios across the war. Well, actually, the engines look pretty similar, I'm assuming the gameplay mechanics are too. I could have sworn one of these games was available for free but it doesn't look like it. These hex-based SSG games are probably one of the best looking traditional style wargames available on the computer, and the AI is actually fairly decent.

HPS is the other big publisher of computer wargames and they are also somewhat content to produce hex-based wargames of different situations without really doing much in the way of improving the available engines. Occasionally they'll have unique individual games but they're mostly engine games. Some are better than others but they all play pretty much the same. Generally a big ugly and the interface isn't exactly the best.

SSG and Matrix also sell Carriers at War, which is also an oldie update.

I don't have time to go into all the different wargames currently (Fantasy General is good but hard as hell) and the companies, will try to do so tonight.

--- Alan

[HRose]

But yes they are totally different games; Korsun Pocket features one situation (and the add-on Across the Dnepr another)
And how long is a campaign in playtime?

If there's only one it means that you have to just play it over and over?

[TheWombat]

The engine is roughly the same, though updated over the years, that started with Korsun Pocket and moved forward since then. But yes they are totally different games; Korsun Pocket features one situation (and the add-on Across the Dnepr another) while Battlefront features a number of different scenarios across the war. Well, actually, the engines look pretty similar, I'm assuming the gameplay mechanics are too. I could have sworn one of these games was available for free but it doesn't look like it. These hex-based SSG games are probably one of the best looking traditional style wargames available on the computer, and the AI is actually fairly decent.

The Ardennes Offensive, which was the first of the games in the Decisive Battles series that eventually gave us Korsun, Battles in Normandy, and Battles in Italy has been available free in some forms, either as a pack in with subsequent games in the series or as a stand-alone download. You can still, it seems, download it from www.ssgus.com, but I am not 100% sure about that site; the SSG site I know is www.ssg.com.au, where there is no mention of the Bulge game. But it has been around for free for a while.

All these games are pretty good, if you can deal with the graphic style and their limited support of higher resolutions. There are also a lot of user created scenarios, though most of them lack full AI support and are designed for PBEM.

Battlefront uses pretty much the same sort of interface and the game system is similar, but at a smaller scale. In the Decisive Battles games, you fight whole campaigns, while in Battlefront you fight specific, well, battles. Units tend to be companies or battalions rather than regiments and brigades, for example.

The AI can be rather good in all of them, though "good" in this case generally means it plays the victory conditions well. It'll do odd and ahistorical things that are very effective in gaining points, so if you're interested in the game side of an AI challenge these do pretty well.

The HPS stuff has a much wider variety of battles, WWII and modern historical/hypothetical, and gets updated quite often with engine improvements. The games play fairly slowly due to their scale--usually two to four hours of a day being covered by one turn, and thus big scenarios can have 300+ turns--and the interface comes up short in information display and management in a lot of areas. On the other hand, they are very close to traditional "monster game" battalion-level boardgames of days gone by--think Wacht am Rhine and Atlantic Wall, or The Next War, for you old grogs. Good PBEM if you have the patience; solo play is good if you are mainly interested in dorking around while reading about a battle or campaign. Personally, I've played them since they debuted but have NEVER finished a complete monster campaign in any of 'em.

[MMcGlumphy]

The Ardennes Offensive, which was the first of the games in the Decisiveattles series that eventually gave us Korsun, Battles in Normandy, and Battles in Italy has been available free in some forms, either as a pack in with subsequent games in the series or as a stand-alone download. You can still, it seems, download it from www.ssgus.com (http://www.ssgus.com/), but I am not 100% sure about that site; the SSG site I know is www.ssg.com.au (http://www.ssg.com.au/), where there is no mention of the Bulge game.

The boxed version of KP that I have includes the Ardennes Offensive as a bonus mission.

FWIW, for the SSG games I started with KP to learn the basic mechanics before moving on to the other evolutions of their game system.

EDIT: Here's a clip from the More Info page for KP on the Matrix Games site...

BONUS BATTLE: The Ardennes Offensive

A new and improve version of SSG's Ardennes Offensive on the Battle of the Bulge is also included as a special bonus. In December 1944, the German Army launched a furious surprise attack against American forces in the Ardennes. This special bonus now gives you two great battles to command.

[Brooski]

And if you value your sanity please avoid Vassal.

I salute those of you who have been willing to force yourself to learn that abomination but I feel that no game is worth enduring that pain.
Are you serious? I think VASSAL is one of the best tools I've ever seen for playing online. I've played a bunch of 1960 via VASSAL (at least five games) and it works absolutely great. Some of it depends on how well the module was done, but I haven't had anything close to "pain" while playing online using VASSAL. If VASSAL weren't around, I wouldn't play half as much as I do.

[Brooski]

Lots of good advice here. The Great Battles series is an excellent example of a boardgame being adapted to computer while retaining all the things that made it work well as a boardgame. Another game like this (although not a conversion) is the Horse & Musket/Dragoon series (formerly published by Shrapnel Games). It also fulfills the criterion of being pre-WWII since it is about Frederick the Great/Seven Years War.

Those are really your best choices for “computer boardgames” that don’t involved WWII. Guns of August is very good, but it’s a little baroque for those not really familiar with the genre’s conventions. The interface is particularly bad, and you’d probably find it frustrating. That’s why it’s a shame you don’t want to play a WWII game, since the Korsun Pocket series (including the earlier Ardennes game, which Robert linked) is really the best boardgame presentation on a computer ever made. Battlefront isn’t really an improvement – it just changes the scale and assumes you know how to play the earlier games.

Conquest of the Aegean is nice, but it’s WWII, which you wanted to avoid, and it puts a lot of things “under the hood” that keep it from feeling much like a boardgame. It’s really a real-time strategy game with NATO symbols.

The AGEOD games are not WWII, but they also go a fair bit towards hiding mechanics and burying results (like the battles) and don’t feel much like boardgames to me. I think Birth of America is the best one in this series, and has the bonus of being about the American Revolution, so it is “not WWII”.

I completely agree with Robert’s assessment of the HPS games – they are more tools for noodling with a historical situation (“touching history” as I call it) than actual games that you enjoy as games. That’s good for some people and not so good for others, and I’m one of the latter.

[XPav]

There's also The Operational Art of War (available from Matrix, also). It's main draw is the huge amount of scenarios available it, as it has a rather complete toolkit that can do most land warfare (with naval and air supporting elements) since about WW1.

That's my wargame of choice. If I get bored with a scenario I just do another one.

[Ben Sones]

(“touching history” as I call it)

Can you show me on this timeline where the bad man touched you?

[mkozlows]

Thanks for all the recommendations and info. I spent some time reading reviews of all the recommended titles, and decided to order Korsun Pocket. Yeah, it's WW2, which I'm not wild about, but it seemed like every review had phrases like "best of all time" in it, and it's hard to ignore that much unanimity of opinion.

[Panzeh]

Advanced Tactics is a very solid game if you're willing to put up with longish AI turns and like to design your own army. It is also quite accessible to play and very moddable.

You can find it up at Matrix Games.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

And if you value your sanity please avoid Vassal.

I salute those of you who have been willing to force yourself to learn that abomination but I feel that no game is worth enduring that pain.

Is Vassal the same as VASL??

Which I used to play a bit.....

And thought was really good!!

[HelloLemur]

My first post to these forums after quite a while lurking so hello all.

"Hardcore wargames" can be very rewarding if you're willing to put a pretty heavy time commitment into them. Alot of the enjoyment comes from the historical aspect so I'd say it helps to have an interest in whatever theatre or scenario you are playing through.

With that in mind I'd recommend the following:

The SSG Decisive Battles series - Battlefront, Battles in Italy, Battles in Normandy etc.

Highway to the Reich and Conquest of the Aegean by Panther Games.

Close Combat - probably doesn't count as a historical wargame, more like a tactical RTS, but this game is great.

Also not strictly a historical wargame but Armageddon Empires is great if you're a Fallout/Wastelands fan and love turn based strategy.

Good luck!

[HRose]

Advanced Tactics is a very solid game if you're willing to put up with longish AI turns and like to design your own army. It is also quite accessible to play and very moddable.

You can find it up at Matrix Games.
I read good things about this.

It should be basically like a new version of TOAW3, with the difference that it does better the strategic part, and does worse the operational one. They say the AI is good doing strategy too.

It also looks quite bad.

[HRose]

By the way, I still have TOAW3 and still have to learn it properly.

The problem with wargames is not much that they are complex, but that the documentation often sucks, which is why instead I like COTA.

So, does someone know some guides about TOAW3? I still have to figure out how the turns work, how to optimize the moves and all those other things that aren't exactly intuitive.

[Lum]

So, does someone know some guides about TOAW3? I still have to figure out how the turns work, how to optimize the moves and all those other things that aren't exactly intuitive.

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/toawtips_page1.asp

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Lately I've been playing MegaMek (http://megamek.sourceforge.net/).

[caesarbear]

Is Vassal the same as VASL??

Which I used to play a bit.....

And thought was really good!!
You mean virtual Advanced Squad Leader? VASL is a specific adoption from Vassal, while Vassal itself is an engine that runs many modules.

[Sarkus]

Thanks for all the recommendations and info. I spent some time reading reviews of all the recommended titles, and decided to order Korsun Pocket. Yeah, it's WW2, which I'm not wild about, but it seemed like every review had phrases like "best of all time" in it, and it's hard to ignore that much unanimity of opinion.

Good luck. I find that series to be too complicated for my tastes. I'd second the TOAW (Operational Art of War) suggestion. Tons of scenarios, much less complicated, and covers a large time period.